Matt Slick's Conversations with Unbelievers

Free Will, Divine Foreknowledge, and Human Responsibility

No, I took a retirement package a few years ago. The free will issue, do you know what free will is? Yeah, it's the ability to make your own choices. Without coercion? Yeah. So if you choose to make a decision to wear a blue shirt or a red shirt tomorrow, and God knows it, how does that violate your free will?

It doesn't, but if you decide to go rob a bank and you decide not to go rob a bank, God already knows whether you're going to do it or not.

Either way, with the color of your shirt, it's irrelevant to whether or not you know what you're going to do.

But that's not relevant to whether you're going to heaven or hell. Yeah, that's depending on Jesus. That's depending on Jesus? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm a Christian minister. That's cool, I haven't talked to many ministers.

Yeah, I'm a different one though. Okay. Yeah, I use a lot of logic. So if God's omniscient, does he know whether you're going to heaven or hell?

Yeah, he's decreed it from the back of his world.

Why doesn't he just sort of say, I'm going to heaven or hell before he's born?

Because he wants us to have fellowship with him, to increase in our relationship with him. Can't we do that in heaven? And he also wants to be able to come here and fulfill the requirements of love and sacrifice behind the cross to be here for him.

So who deserves to go to hell then? Nobody. Well, everybody deserves to go to hell, I'm sorry. Everybody deserves to go to hell. So who decides who's going to hell? Who decides? Yeah. So you go up to heaven, and is it God that says, well, you live shitty lives, you're going to hell?

Oh, true. I'm sorry, what did I say? Does he say, you've lived a terrible life, you're going to hell? No, that's irrelevant.

So then who goes to hell? Actually, the one God appoints to return to life, Acts 13, verse 48, is the one he appoints to return to life, believed. So they're the ones that he decrees and decides to go.

But he already knows that they're going to go to hell.

Yeah, because he decided it. So then he made them born the way that they are, they're going to make decisions they do, and then they're sentenced to hell.

Proverbs 14, verse 6 says, he makes all things even the wicked for the day of evil.

So then why would he sentence people to hell before they're born?

He didn't sentence them. He's retrieved the decision they're going to go because of their own sin.

So then he's not omniscient, or they have free will. Yeah, he is.

The omniscience and free will are not self-explanatory. Free will is the ability to make choices. But he already knows what the choices are. Yeah, he knows who you're going to make, so what's the big deal?

So then he already knows whether you're going to heaven or hell. Yes. So then he's already made that decision before you're even born. He already knows what you're going to do every day of your lifetime.

So how are you going to judge you on those decisions?

But he decreed the means as well as the ends. Not just the ends, but the means by which the ends occur.

Yeah, but then you don't have a free will. I mean, if he... Let's go back to what free will is. The ability to make choices. Yeah.

Parenting, Choice, and God's Sovereignty

So, you got any kids? I do have two kids. Okay. So I'm assuming that if you were to put your kids in front of the dinner table and say, there's a bowl of ice cream, there's a bowl of rocks, pick one to eat.

They're going to pick the ice cream. Hopefully. Yeah. But, you know, some boys, you never know. Yeah. But they're going to pick the ice cream, right? Okay. So does your arrangement of that violate their free will?

Uh... Knowing what they're going to do?

No, I mean, they have free will to choose what they want, but that doesn't help. Doesn't mean? You didn't violate their free will? It's not like God's going to look and be like, wow, you ate rocks, you're going to hell.

No, no, no.

But you see that by God, knowing what they're going to do doesn't mean they don't have the free will and choice to be able to do it.

Are you getting so upset with me? Because you're trying to tell us that you're correct and we're wrong.

Yeah, you're saying that the Bible's right. That's right. God is right. That's right. Oh, God wrote the Bible. I don't believe in a God. Okay. Don't believe in a God. So don't preach to me that I have to believe in a God.

Then don't stay here. Go away. How did God... Why don't you go away? I'm talking to this guy. Why don't you go away? No. I was talking to him. He's a nice guy. How did God write a Bible if he is not a person?

You're far too old to do that. Oh, it's someone else. You know what? I'm going to be God and I'm going to tell you how to write a Bible, okay? Look at the circle. You know, the Bible was written by man.

And it's someone that interpreted whatever they felt like.

I don't think you're an expert on how well that works. And neither are you. No, you're not. Oh, no, you're not.

You're a man. You're a human being. Actually, basically, you're almost saying that you're higher than God. You're actually a joke. You're actually a joke. Okay, I'm a joke. Thank you. You are. You are.

I know it all. All right. All right. You guys done now? No. I'm done. Okay, what do you want to say to Dr. Shep? You know what? I hate people like you preaching to me saying I am wrong.

You stuck your nose in our conversation.

You offended me by saying gay people. You offended me right there that you said gay people are sin. Where's yours? Where's your tolerance?

Where's yours? I'm having fun with you guys. Make sure you add only what you want now.

We don't do that kind of thing. Yes. Exactly. Make sure you add what you want.

I was talking to him. You guys butted in. You said a gay person was a sinner. Now you're on the attack. You said a gay person was a sinner. You're attacking me. I'm a sinner. It does not matter. Everybody's a sinner.

No, you said gay people. Gay people are in sin. Adulterers are in sin. Thieves are in sin. You're a sinner. I'm a sinner. Everybody's okay. What the heck are we here for then?

We're here to find Jesus Christ and have faith and hope and love in Jesus Christ. How do you know about Jesus Christ?

Did you meet him? Through the scriptures that someone else wrote. It was their opinions of what this God is. Have you read the Bible? Yes, I have. Where is God? He's in the heavens. How do you know that?

Because the Bible tells it. Oh, yeah. You know what? This little storybook says, oh, this Egyptian shot this person. Wow. That is the truth now. Okay. Well, I'm glad you have your faith. That's nice. But can I continue my conversation?

There's one more question for you. What? If Adam and Eve were supposed to be the first people or anything in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. It took them seven days to do that. Yeah.

That's right. The seventh day was the Day of Resurrection. Okay. How did the dinosaurs be here a lot longer than Adam and Eve? That's another topic. Yeah.

So I can't answer it. And you can't. No, you cannot. But if I try, you're going to interrupt. Okay.

Well, those are my two cents. Do you want an answer?

Sure. Job is the oldest written book probably in history. Okay. And in the last four chapters, there are descriptions of land animals and water-based animals that are absolutely huge, breathe fire, have scales, huge tails.

There are descriptions of land-based dinosaurs and human-based dinosaurs. Now, you can look at geology all you want. You can look at the evolutionary theory all you want. But you know what? The scriptures there tell us that they were around at the same time as people.

Not a problem. There are cultures around the world who've actually seen these things in books. Yes, we've seen them before. They're out there. Now, not so much now, but the flood will be wiped out most if not all of them.

What's the big deal?

From what I understand, it was the ice age that got rid of the ice. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Now, can I go back to my topic?

Atheism, Mockery, and the Laws of Logic

So, are you an atheist or what? No, not at all. What are you? I've never thought about it a second in my life. Why would I ever think about things like that? Semantics. Oh, I don't know. Just because I might die someday.

Oh, I don't know. It's separation. It's separation of humankind and everything else. Like you'll die someday. We're over here. We're over here. Let's get our most bullheaded guy to go over there. Right?

Okay. What else is it? It's mockery. You don't want to have a good conversation. It's not a good conversation once you don't like what you hear. When it's mockery. When it's mockery. Yeah, that's what I use when I feel like I'm being mocked.

Because that's my opinion. Okay, well, that's nice. That's nice. I'll get back to you on the conversation. I feel like I'm being mocked. Okay. So, you feel like you're being mocked. I feel like I'm being mocked.

But your version of being mocked is more important, right? I'm sorry. We're having a call. That's mockery. Are you done? Are you done? Yeah. Yeah. Finish the bit. Oh, oh. You've done this. No, it's not.

Oh. It's like, you've really got to get through mockery.

Nope. We can't look positive on logic. We can't say, hey, look. There's a logic. I found it underneath this, you know, I just found it right here. It doesn't work that way. Of course. We can't. It's a globe.

We can measure the intensity, the reflectivity, the hardness of this object, the properties. But we can't do that with logic. Logic doesn't fit into the category of being material or physical. It's transcendent.

Yeah. And what you'll do is, you will use a transcendent aspect of logic to argue against a transcendent.

You see the problem there? Well, that's assuming that there is something that's transcendent. Yes. So that's the whole basis of your logic right there. You're saying that because there's transcendence, then I can make this argument, which I'm saying there is no transcendence, so you can't make that argument.

But the laws of logic are transcendent. In your eyes. No. It's that they exist. Like the law of identity. Yes. Something is what it is. The law of non-contradiction. Something cannot be both true and false at the same time, in the same sense, in the same way.

The law of proper inference. If A equals B, and B equals C, then A equals C. These laws can't be broken down any further. They are conceptual entities or abstractions. They probably reflect truth, but they're not declared upon materiality or the physical, or the properties of the physical, or your mind and my mind.

We already know that. So where do they come from?

How do they have their existence? I have an answer for that in my book, but it will take more than five minutes to explain. But we can go over that in the show, if you want. Well, half is one of the...

We'll do that.