Matt Slick Live- Debate with Lou Rugg on Calvinism

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July 10, 2014

Matt Slick asks difficult questions on Calvinism that Lou Rugg cannot answer. Originally airing on December 17, 2013 using Paltalk. For the transcript of this debate visit: http://carm.org/matt-slick-lou-rugg-difficult-questions For more information on the teaching of Calvinism visit: http://carm.org/calvinism For more information on Matt Slick Live visit: http://carm.org/radio

00:08: Okay, I'm gonna explain to you guys why I've been refuting Calvinism or trying to refute Calvinism for the last 10 years first of all
00:17: Reformed theology teaches double predestination. I don't believe in double predestination. It teaches that John Calvin taught by predestination.
00:25: We mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself Why don't whatever he wished to happen with regard not created on equal terms
00:35: But some are preordained to eternal life others to eternal damnation and accordingly as each has been created for one or other of these
00:43: Ends we say that he has been predestined to life or to death. That's what John Calvin wrote. I don't believe that I don't believe it's biblical at all number two a
00:53: Holy God does not author or decree sin that to me is a fundamental falsehood
00:59: That's the second reason why I despise Calvinism John Calvin taught creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God that nothing happens
01:09: But what he has knowingly and willingly decreed which would include sin I don't believe that God authors or decrease in but Calvinist believe that Also is if is reformed theology correct the
01:23: Sun have a holy purpose is Calvinist would claim if Calvinist believe that sin has a holy purpose
01:29: Who are they to say that sin is evil? Maybe they should say that sin is good after all
01:34: God has a purpose for it and according to them It must be a good purpose
01:39: When Calvinists say that sin is evil while believing that God uses it for a good purpose Doesn't that mean that maybe the
01:46: Calvinists are ungodly. They really should be saying that sin is good because God uses it for good third reason
01:54: Calvin Calvinism defies biblical logic and proclaims a double -minded God with a split personality for example
02:03: God said thou shalt not kill But God decreed man to kill Why would
02:09: God decree a man to do what he commanded them not to do? This is a logical fallacy in Mark 325
02:17: Jesus said if a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand and Calvinist teacher
02:24: God teaches a God that's divided against himself Example number two in Acts 17 30
02:30: God commands all men everywhere to repent But Calvinism teaches that man can't repent unless God regenerates them first So why is
02:40: God commanding man to do something that he's unable to do? Why do Calvinist approach a sinner?
02:47: Imploring them to repent if they're unable to repent Why do Calvinist rebuke a sinner for sinning if God is the one who decreed them to sin in the first place
02:57: Shouldn't they be rebuking God after all the sinner wouldn't have sinned unless God decreed it in the first place
03:04: It's not the sinners fault. It's God's fault According to Calvinism once the man is regenerated.
03:11: He can't help but repent So why is God making it a command at all if a person can't help but repent once he's regenerated
03:20: Doesn't that sound silly? Example number three God's justice is non -existent in Calvinism According to Calvinism God decrees a man to sin and God decrees a man to do that which is good
03:35: For example God takes his his non elect Decrees them to sin
03:40: Doesn't regenerate them so they can repent and then punishes them for the sin that he decreed that they wouldn't have committed
03:47: Unless he decreed it in the first place God takes his elect decrees them to do that, which is good
03:53: Regenerates them and then rewards them for the good that they wouldn't have done unless he decreed them to do it in the first place
04:00: Both the non elect and the elect act solely within God's decrees
04:05: Where's the justice? Where's the accountability and finally?
04:11: Calvinist proclaims a God that hates his enemies Meanwhile God commands us to love our enemies
04:21: According to Calvinism God isn't willing to do what he commands his creation to do to me that's a hypocritical
04:30: God and Those are four of the main reasons why I despise Calvinism There are more but those are the four main ones keeping that in mind
04:40: I'm gonna let Matt have at me and ask me some of those tough questions So Matt Slick the mic is yours.
04:46: You're up Lou I'd be interested Apparently you read that so I'd be interested in if you would be willing to send me that and then
04:53: I can respond to it Not no offense meant to you Lou, but I don't think you understand a lot of reformed theology
05:00: I don't think you understand to creative will prescriptive will permissive will what ordination means and I think you're confused
05:06: No disrespect meant because you don't understand how we define those things I think it would be a good service to you and to others if you were to send me that and then
05:14: I could Respond to it with some more refined responses okay, I don't you want to do that or not, but you can and the address would be here and Then maybe
05:27: I can put the response up on my website Calvinist corner calm All right
05:35: So here I'm gonna I wrote some questions up and I figured it would probably be better if I were to write them up So I could paste them oh, yeah, well, okay, well then say what someone has the
05:46: We have recordings we just get somebody transcribe it good enough and then I'll just respond to it.
05:52: They'll send it to me. No big deal So there's lots of questions I can ask and I do appreciate you finally be willing to at least address or try to address some of the difficult questions
06:04: So let me ask you this. I'll paste it and Read it so people can hear For the recording as well
06:10: Do you agree or deny that God makes the will the mind the body etc and puts people?
06:18: in a designated place time I'm and culture with particular parents at all if not, why not?
06:26: But how is God not predestining people to salvation or damn? Nation by his sovereign arrangement of all factors
06:34: That are under his control Go ahead Well, well, first of all and puts them puts people in a designated place 15
06:44: I believe I'll get you the verse for that while you're asking me the second question As far as what and Matt could you come up to the mic and repeat the second portion of your question?
06:53: I said if you agree, then how is God not predestining people? Well, God's not God's pre God's not predestining people to do
07:01: One or the other God just happens to know the free will decisions that people are going to make before Predestining them to salvation or condemnation or versus salvation
07:12: He just happens to know because he's omniscient all of man's free will decisions that they're going to make based on where God placed them
07:20: Okay, so Matt the Mac Mike is yours. You're up Lou you're not answering the question saying that he knows
07:28: The saying that he simply knows what free will choice are going to make Problematic because it means that God is then contingent upon the choices of individuals, there's a
07:41: And that means he is independent. He's non -contingent. He is self -sufficient and As such he has no dependency on anything or anyone else
07:55: If you were to say that God knows what their free will choices are going to be Then he predestines accordingly.
08:02: Then what you're saying is God's choices are then contingent upon the so -called free will choices of man
08:07: And that violates the doctrine of God's a second deity Now the issue is that if God knows exactly what the free will choices of man estimating them
08:18: Since he knows exactly what those free will choices will be under any circumstance that he is sovereignly arranged.
08:25: Go ahead Well, he's pre Okay, can you guys hear me? He's predestined them based on their free will choices
08:32: Oh, by the way, here's the here's the passage by the way at 1726 and at 1727
08:38: That God places all men and had made of one blood all nations all of men
08:43: For to dwell on all the face of the earth and had determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their
08:49: Habitation that they should seek the Lord if happily they might feel after him and find him though We may not far away from every one of us
08:55: So God places every single person and on the planet close enough where they could they could they could they could seek after him
09:03: Okay, good. Now as far as pre that I believe in double I believe in predestination by the way,
09:09: I Believe in predestination But man is predestined based on what God foreknows within his very being
09:16: Because God doesn't need to look down the card as a time to find out what man's going to do Man is predestined based on God's foreknowledge of what he knows
09:26: Their free will decisions are going to be before they make them God knows whether I'm Saved or not before I was even born
09:33: Tracy loves Jesus God knows whether Tracy loves Jesus, but I'd knows Beforehand whether they're going to be saved or saved before they've even born
09:41: Because he's omniscient, but he doesn't do it because he's not predestined them He basically is make it he knows because he foreknows whether they go into it will decisions
09:54: Before they even make them. That's how God predestines Matt slick you're up Well, that's still problematic
10:03: I'm glad you are moving towards orthodoxy and affirming the doctrine of predestination
10:11: But in your you don't understand that if God predestined
10:16: And what you're doing is you're saying that God's decision to save someone is based upon equality ability or choice of an individual
10:28: Injunct upon man's choices This means they're going to do and then he saves them based on what they're going to do which means got independence
10:36: Which has existed from eternity past You're saying that? Within that he looked down the corridor of time because it had to be that I know you said you didn't
10:47: But the problem is that he would have to know all things in all situations And even if we want to work with what you're saying
10:53: It's still problematic because there are so to speak an infinite number of potential existences that God could have brought into reality he chose the one he decided and Therefore whatever free will choices anyone's going to make in any situation
11:08: God has brought into Actuality by creating the universe the way he did so he is therefore predestining them absolutely
11:18: Now along those questions of the free will I Think what I'll do is ask you a question about that.
11:26: I'll type this in here, okay, I Paste it in hold on a window came up.
11:32: Let me close it. Nothing happens Okay, good. Nope another one came up. Okay.
11:38: Sorry. Sorry windows popped up just really quickly Why does one person's free will
11:45: Mm -hmm Why does one person's free will move him to believe but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurs
11:57: So why does one person's free will move him to believe but another free will does not? This is the context of God approving which is or knowing for knowing doesn't
12:07: God know how? It doesn't really work for this question. Let me rephrase this Why does one person's free will choose
12:15: God when another does not why is it you say they're free will choices
12:20: Why is it that one person believes and another person does not if you say it's because of their free will that you're not?
12:28: Answering the question What I want to do is have you answer specifically. What is it about one individual?
12:36: As compared to another individual that has the one or individual Receive God and another one does not when it is
12:44: God who makes their free wills. Could you answer that? Go ahead? First of all,
12:49: I have to go back and answer your other question elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father First Peter 1 2 answers your previous question elect according to the foreknowledge of God the
13:00: Father So God elects those based on his foreknowledge Based on gotten that God doesn't need to look down the corridors of time
13:08: God knows within his very being all free will decisions that man is going to make before he makes them also a
13:16: Galatians 6 5 says this for every man shall bear his own burden Okay, so I wanted to go back and answer your previous question that we are elect based on God's foreknowledge
13:28: Okay now Now based on okay your other question Why does one person's free will move him to believe but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurrence?
13:40: Well, what we'll go back to John chapter 16 verse 8 where it's the
13:45: Holy Spirit who reproves the world of sin So when we hear the gospel message, it's the Holy Spirit that's convicting the sinner
13:52: So now does the sinner turn it God's reproof as Proverbs 1 23 teaches where Proverbs 1 23 says?
14:01: Turn you with my reproof What what does it mean to turn at God's reproof to turn at God's reproof means to repent?
14:09: We can't turn at God's reproof unless he's reproving first God reproves God commands man to turn at his reproof and Whether that man turns at God's reproof is not is based on whether or not he chooses to fear the
14:22: Lord Now what's the fear of the Lord? Proverbs 8 13 teaches that the fear of the
14:27: Lord is to hate evil pride and arrogancy and the evil way in the Proud Mount do I hate so when
14:34: God when God's reproving work occurs? God is enabling the individual to choose whether to fear the
14:40: Lord or not The con God is instilled in every single person a conscience
14:46: Okay, so when God's working on our conscience, he's calling on us to repent.
14:51: Do we fear the Lord? Do we hate evil? Are we prideful if we're prideful or we?
14:59: We are we embrace evil. We're not going to turn at God's reproof But if we're humble and we hate evil and God's giving us that choice through his reproving work
15:08: We're going to choose to fear the Lord and if we choose to fear the Lord This is what happens when a person fears the
15:15: Lord Psalm 25 12 through 14 says this what man is he that feareth the
15:20: Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose The secret of the
15:26: Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant Now the covenant is
15:31: Christ because when he turned to Acts chapter 10 Acts chapter right there was the
15:37: Acts chapter 13 verse 26 It says men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth
15:44: God To you is this word of salvation sent So the word of salvation Matt is to all those who choose to fear
15:52: God Because only the God fearer is going to accept the gospel message because the God fearer hates his sin and is humble
16:00: The non God fearer embraces sin and is prideful so the non
16:05: God fearer is going to accept the gospel and the God fearer based on the fact that he's humble and he hates
16:11: And God's Enabling them to do that who was reproving work and the fact that man has a conscience that enables
16:18: God that enables man to choose Whether or not to repent or turn to God's reproof.
16:23: So I hope I answered your other question Matt slick you're up Well, the problem is that we're not focusing and you're introducing all kinds of things.
16:31: You've introduced several scriptures and Then my response will be five minutes in your response.
16:36: That'll be ten minutes. I'm gonna drink of water. I Specifically asked a question, which
16:42: I'll I'll paste in here First of all Proverbs 813 the fear of the Lord is to hate evil
16:48: It doesn't say that people are enabled to hate evil By being reproved or by being enlightened or anything.
16:55: It just says that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil Nothing in the text designates anything other than that As far as Proverbs to 123 goes this is a personification of wisdom
17:07: It's not a doctrinal statement about the character or ability of the saved or unsaved Proverbs is a collection of wisdom statements and a subsequent responsibility that people have to follow
17:17: God's truth But don't make the mistake of thinking that a command of God automatically means that a person is able to accomplish it
17:23: Now you brought that up And I want to show you that this principle that you reject is actually scripture
17:31: Is actually biblical I'll paste this in and you can take a look at it See God often requires what we cannot accomplish in 1st
17:39: Peter 1 16 God says to be holy because he is holy But a person cannot be holy in and of himself
17:46: We see that God commands everyone everywhere to repent at 1730, but it is God who grants repentance second
17:52: Timothy 225 We see that God commands people to believe in him Yet he opens their hearts to believe as he did with Lydia in Acts 16 14 and then
18:00: He grants that people believe in Philippians 129. This is why Romans 9 16 says It does not depend upon the man who will for the man who runs but upon God who has mercy hit the point is this that when you say
18:12: That God or imply that God will not be able to or will not require something of someone that They're not able to do.
18:20: Well, yes, he does He absolutely does 1st Peter 1 16 proves that that is the case
18:27: Be holy because I'm holy. Nobody can be holy only God is holy, but he Gives us the holiness that we need through Christ and that's by his decree not by our will
18:37: So your statement is invalid. It's not biblical and I've shown you that now you went on to someone or excuse me
18:45: Psalm 25 and Forgot which exact verse But that's the a psalm written
18:51: By David and he's already a believer There's nothing in there about being enabled in any way to to come to believe in God Just by being a
19:02: Person who fears God it simply asks who is the man who fears the Lord?
19:07: That's what it doesn't in I think verse 12 Who is the one who fears the Lord? There's nothing in there at all that Demonstrates to us or tells us in any way shape or form how a person comes to fear the
19:21: Lord however The Bible does tell us That that is the case
19:28: When you find the verse and I'll post it in here He tells us how we do come to fear the
19:35: Lord and this is Jeremiah 32 40 And I'll make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them to do good to To do them good and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me
19:50: So we know because God is the one who puts the fear in their hearts Whenever you quote any verses that say well those who fear him well my question is why do they fear him they fear him because God put the fear of the heart of him in them.
20:04: That's what he says. He does. That's the answer to that so My question
20:12: We're going to do a lot of stuff here, and this is why I want to focus on one thing at a time
20:17: I I think you're making an assumption that is not warranted in any of the verses that you've cited
20:27: You say or you imply that a person is unable to believe by being reproved By being urged by being commanded
20:36: And that's not what the scriptures teaching. Oh, I just remembered for knowledge. Let me let me address that really fast If you do a study on the word no
20:43: K &O W when the Greek is Gnosko you'll find that God only knows believers If you go to Romans 829 for example those whom you foreknow he also predestined
20:54: That's prognosco the ones who are foreknown are also the ones predestined We see the pattern in Scripture where God says he only knows those who are his that's the pattern that God has set up When people are elected by the foreknowledge of God, it's concomitant or it is somewhat similar to this issue of Romans 829 and 30
21:13: Where God only knows those who are his he knows him because he's called them to himself as X 1348 says we'll get to that So for knowledge does not mean
21:23: Looking down the quarters of time or knowing ahead of time because if he does not look down the quarters of time
21:28: There is no foreknowledge to be had She God knows all things Instantaneously and eternally there is no foreknowledge in that sense
21:36: He can't foreknow ahead of time because with God there is no time There is no looking down the corridor looking beyond or looking with any or anything
21:46: It's just simply all knowledge is eternally consistent and instantaneous with God from all time foreknowledge doesn't mean
21:54: That he looked in any way shape or form to see what the free will choices of people would be as I said before that Make him contingent
22:01: It would violate that issue if you do a study on the word. No, okay. No W as it relates to Salvation you'll see he only knows
22:09: Believers and those who knew for knew he also predestined the four known ones are the predestined ones are the same group
22:15: So back to this question Can you show me any scripture Can you show me any scripture?
22:23: I'll paste this in Sorry about that. Can you show me any scripture?
22:30: That says that when a person is reproved by God that he is enabled to believe Now don't just assume that's the case show it to you from Scripture without reading into the text go ahead
22:44: First of all, there were a number of fallacies Matt that I need to address Before I answer your question. You went to first first of all,
22:51: I fear the Lord is a choice Proverbs 129 To the unrepentant sinner for they hate and knowledge and it doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the
23:00: Lord It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord is a big difference in words here The fear of the Lord is clearly a choice
23:05: God says turn you with my reproof the fear of the Lord is a choice. Okay, that's clear Okay.
23:11: Now, let me go to first first Peter one night first Peter 116 God says to be holy is
23:18: I am holy We can be holy as God is holy Do you know how?
23:25: Christ imputed righteousness When God sees us as Christians He sees
23:34: Christ's righteousness in us He sees Christ's holiness in us
23:39: That's how we can be holy is God is holy. That's the only way imputed righteousness
23:47: Okay. Now, how does God give put the fear of the Lord in their heart? He teaches the fear of the
23:54: Lord Psalm 34 11 says this regarding the fear of the Lord the fear of the
24:00: Lord is taught and A person can refuse to be taught
24:06: Okay, that's another thing. I wanted to address that also 2nd
24:11: Timothy 2 25 teaches that God grants Repentance I Think it's in 2nd
24:19: Timothy 2 25. Let me post the verse. I think he quoted from the ESV, which is fine
24:25: We 2nd Timothy chapter 2 not Matt. That's not to everybody
24:31: God's granting them repent God's granting a person to repent to a person who he has turned over to a
24:39: Reprobate mind. These are people who are teaching falsely who have turned away from false
24:45: He turned away from the truth and are teaching falsely and have gone into heresy God grants them repentance if these people realize what they've been doing he grant but God doesn't grant everyone repentance
24:58: God commands repentance a person who decides to choose and turn to follow other religions after being shown the truth
25:08: God God turns over to a reprobate mind if that person realizes. Oh my goodness.
25:14: What have I done? God's granting those people repentance. God doesn't grant everyone repentance
25:21: God commands all to repent and the only way you could repent is through God's reproving work
25:27: He says turn you at my reproof They choose to fear the Lord if they choose to fear the
25:33: Lord They're going to turn in his reproof turning at his reproof means to repent
25:39: Turning at God's reproof means to repent Ezekiel 33 11 says this
25:46: Say unto them as I live sayeth the Lord I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live
25:53: Turning from his way means to repent turn ye turn ye from your own evil ways.
25:59: That's repentance Okay, turning from a person's wicked ways is repentance
26:06: Okay, God commands that and God enables that through his reproving work
26:13: Okay, now I got to go what was your previous question Matt because you've made a lot of Fallacies and I forgot what your last question was.
26:21: Can you come up to the mic and repeat it? You're up Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also
26:30: Enabled to believe you see what you're doing is begging the question You're assuming that when someone's reproved they're enabled to believe and I'm glad that you agree with me the good reformed theology of first Peter 1 16 that God Commands what people cannot do we cannot be holy
26:51: God imputes it to us Exactly, correct He also grants we believe 2nd
26:57: Timothy 2 25 to me grants. We believe flippers 129 grants We have repentance 2nd
27:03: Timothy 2 25, etc So good reformed theology coming along.
27:08: I appreciate that. That's the question Can you show me any scripture that says that when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe go ahead
27:19: Matt first of all, I haven't agreed with you once so to say that I'm like Coming along nicely to me is like it's an insult to my intelligence
27:30: I don't think I've agreed with you once in this whole thing. So let me put this up front. I Be holy as I am holy
27:39: The only way you could be as holy as holy is imputed righteousness. That's number one number two 2nd
27:46: Timothy 2 25 God grants repentance to those who have God turned over to a reprobate mind 2nd
27:53: Timothy chapter 2 is about false teachers those who have gone into heresy God's not granting repentance to every single human being and enabling all to repent like you're claiming
28:03: So Matt, you've been off you've been off Off kilter for the last half an hour and for you to say that I'm coming along nicely
28:12: And I'm agreeing with reformed theology I think everybody in this room is intelligent enough to realize that that certainly is not the case now
28:19: Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe?
28:26: Yeah right here That's chapter 13 verse 26 men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and Whosoever among you that feareth
28:34: God to you is the word of this salvation sent Through the gospel message is sent strictly to the
28:41: God -fearer Why because Acts chapter 10 verse 34 and 35 says this?
28:49: Peter said of a truth I believe that God is no respect to a person's but in Every nation he that fear of him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.
28:58: God accepts the God -fearer and Peter and Paul is saying that the gospel message is sent only to the
29:06: God -fearer Why because only the God -fearer? Will accept it
29:12: Jesus said in Mark 1 15 this repent and believe the gospel
29:19: Mark 1 15 Repent and believe the gospel. So what happens first?
29:25: repentance first Then comes the belief That's the order repent
29:32: Then believe so you ask me Can I show you a verse which teaches that a person upon fearing
29:39: God or repenting could believe? Right there Jesus's words in Mark 1 15
29:44: Matt. You're up. Oh, by the way for knowledge Look it up for knowledge means to know beforehand
29:52: That's what for knowledge means to know beforehand Matt you're up Well, Lou, I'd recommend that you do a
30:01: Bible study on the term for knowledge and how God uses it along with the word No, KNOW, Gnosko in the
30:06: Greek and you'll see that he only foreknows the believers in that sense in that context
30:12: But check it out. You should do that. You've not shown me what I've asked You've begged the question
30:20: You see Proverbs 129. They did not choose. Of course, they did not choose
30:26: When you say did not did not choose so therefore it's a choice Doesn't mean that they had this inherent ability to be able to choose
30:34: It just says they did not choose. We know why they did not choose
30:40: Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked Jeremiah 17 9. He's full of evil mark 7 21 to 23
30:47: He loves darkness rather than light and does evil John 3 19
30:52: He does not seek for God nor does any good Romans 3 10 11 12 is ungodly Romans 5 6 is deadness sins
30:59: Ephesians 2 1 by nature a child of wrath Ephesians 2 3 He cannot accept or understand spiritual.
31:04: Thanks first Corinthians 2 14 and just slave of sin Romans 6 16 to 20 That's why they didn't choose
31:10: For you to say Romans, excuse me Proverbs 129 means That they had the ability to choose
31:16: Simply because they're told that to be reproved to turn whatever it is
31:22: Doesn't mean that they have the inerrant ability, especially when we see scriptures that speak to the contrary
31:29: You see if you're going to rest everything on a single verse, and I know you don't just do that kind of a thing
31:36: But you do tend to take one verse and put it above basically all other verses and That's a problem
31:44: Because when we look at what the scriptures tell us about the unbeliever we discover
31:51: That the unbeliever is just as I pasted right there He's deceitful and wicked full of evil and etc
31:59: So you see now you said that I've made a lot of fallacies a lot of logical errors
32:06: Well, I'm saying you're making a lot of them. The problem here right now is That I can start listing out all the ones you did and then we have a counter to counter and we're not going to get anywhere
32:17: So what I'm gonna do is focus on a few things because we have to do that in order to get through some of the more
32:23: Difficult questions because there are a lot of questions. I've got for you and now we're just not gonna be long enough but In light of what
32:31: I'm saying here and a lot of what the scripture says You must not Mistakenly assume that they did not choose the fear of the
32:39: Lord because they have the free will ability to do so once enlightened or once called
32:45: Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked just as I've said We know from Jeremiah 32 40 that God gives it to them.
32:55: He puts it in their heart Why did they not choose the fear of the Lord because God had not put it in their heart to fear him
33:03: That's what the scriptures teach that God puts it in the heart of people to fear him Jeremiah 32 40
33:09: That's what he says So when I asked a question or you asked a question or anybody does in the text
33:14: Why is it they did not choose the fear of the Lord because God hadn't given them that? Just as he hadn't given the people repentance in second
33:21: Timothy 225 the false teachers. Let's go with that false teachers. You're right He's got to give it to them.
33:27: Why because it's not in their free will to do that Because they are by nature children of wrath and all
33:33: Unbelievers according to Scripture are false teachers all unbelievers work against God all unbelievers or believers are slaves of sin
33:44: Romans 6 14 to 20 all Unbelievers cannot receive the things of God for their foolishness to them first Corinthians 2 14 all unbelievers fit in that category
33:56: God has to grant it to them. God has to do that now So, let's see.
34:02: We can get a slight change of direction I'm gonna ask you a question about Philippians 129
34:10: This is where it says that God grants That people believe Now on the
34:17: King James is the word given For to you it has been Granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake
34:25: King James says Given that's a Greek word care It's a mine It is used in the following verses.
34:33: You can check them out later So if it is true that God enables people to believe when they're approved or when they're enlightened or it's just their choice then why is it that God has to grant that they believe if The believing that they're going to accomplish is by their own free will
34:48: Why does God have to grant it to them if it's really up to them? Go ahead Matt I think
34:54: I I think I addressed before that God places the fear of the Lord in a person's heart by teaching it.
35:02: I Think I said that before And and once again Matt Proverbs 129
35:09: I need to repeat. I need to repeat these things and I don't know if you're listening to what I'm saying
35:15: Proverbs 129 says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of Lord I mean we didn't read the verse carefully.
35:22: It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord here. What is the choice? they could have chosen but they didn't turn you with my reproof a
35:31: Person you see you're making you're putting words in my mouth and then you're refuting what
35:36: I'm saying Okay, you're saying that I'm claiming that man has the inherent ability to choose to fear
35:43: God No, I'm not saying that at all Matt man doesn't have the inherent ability to fear
35:50: God at all Man needs to be reproved by God in order to have that ability to fear
35:57: God Okay, reproof comes first turn you at my reproof so you
36:03: Matt I don't know if you're paying attention to what I'm saying and Then you're coming up to the mic and you're putting words in my mouth and you're saying that I'm saying silly things
36:12: But I'm not I don't know if you're listening Man doesn't have the inherent ability to do anything without God doing something first God reproves
36:21: Man turns at God's reproof man can't turn at God's reproof unless he's being reproved
36:30: So Matt you want to go back on that? Okay, second Timothy 225 is not for all people
36:36: God doesn't grant repentance for everyone. The granting of repentance is only to those who are
36:45: God gave over to a reprobate mind Who have seen the truth turn from it and now
36:51: God's if they realize what they've done God grants those Repentance, but God doesn't grant repentance to anyone
36:58: God commands all men everywhere to repent once a person hears the gospel message.
37:04: They're enabled to turn at God's reproof And once again, I give you
37:09: Ezekiel 33 11 Okay, well this is what God said regarding Israel in Ezekiel 33 11 as I live sayeth the
37:17: Lord I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked But that the wicked turn from his way and live turning from his way is to repent
37:24: Turn eternity from your own evil ways. That's repentance But why will you die O house of Israel so a wicked man can't turn unless he's being reproved
37:35: God reproves man turns at God's reproof you went to Jeremiah 17 9
37:40: You're isolating verses Matt Jeremiah 17 9 the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it, but you need to read the next verse
37:51: You need to read the next verse. What does the next verse say? This is what the next verse is. I the
37:56: Lord search the heart I try the rains even to give every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings
38:02: So you need to read Jeremiah 17 9 in light of Jeremiah 17 10 and vice versa
38:09: And you're not doing that you're isolating verses So I need to go back on that you asked me before and then and then you and then you're rattling off verses
38:19: Let's do one at a time So what first do you want to tackle Matt one at a time?
38:25: Don't give me Romans 8 22 Galatians 3 18 Philippians 2 9 like I'm overwhelmed over here
38:32: Let's do that ask me specific hard questions, and you're not doing that you're overloading the room with issues
38:38: Then you're putting words in my mouth, and then you're refuting things that I didn't say So let's do one verse at a time at what verse would you like for me to address first one at a time?
38:49: You're up Philippians 129 Let's look at Philippians 129 Okay, Philippians 129
38:57: Okay For unto you is given in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
39:07: Is that believing on the gospel Matt or is that just believing on the works that God is that God is doing in their life?
39:15: Is it believing the gospel? What's the context of Philippians 1 is it believing just to believe the gospel?
39:22: You know to believe in to what about Jesus the gospel Or is it to believe in the works that Christ will do through them when they go out in their ministry?
39:32: What kind of belief are we talking about? Yeah to believe is to believe in Jesus in him yeah in what way
39:40: I Believe in Jesus too, and I'm a believer already Do we believe do we
39:46: Christians believe in Jesus? I but no no why what does it say salvific Matt?
39:52: What does it say salvific in Philippians chapter 1 I? Believe in Jesus as I'm already a believer, but I believe in Jesus.
40:01: I believe that he's going to Maybe heal somebody or I believe that he's gonna work in me and make me a better person
40:10: I believe in the work that he's gonna do in me To help me walk in his way and to work.
40:18: I believe in Jesus in a lot of ways But what does it say in Philippians chapter 1 is believing in the gospel
40:24: Let's take a look at the context of Philippians 1 don't isolate verses Matt, and that's what
40:29: I think you're doing you're up He said
40:35: God doesn't take delight in the death of the wicked. That's true Ezekiel 3 3 11 for you and for others you might want to research it first Samuel 2 25
40:44: God desires to pay people to death and the word in Hebrew is the same word for Taking the pleasure in X's 33 11 to delight and take pleasure in so he does do that, but that's another theological discussion
40:56: We can get into which reformed theology does answer very well I'm glad you agree with the reformed doctrine of total property that a wicked man cannot turn
41:08: When he's reproved just by the simple act of let me put it this way. I don't know put words in your mouth I'm not honestly try not to do that I'm glad that you agree with the reformed doctrine of total depravity that person is not enabled of himself and in Himself to be able to simply choose
41:23: God You would have to assert that it was necessary is a reproving work of God upon the person that somehow enables them and Of course when you go to I think it was
41:34: Jeremiah 24 11 that God teaches them These are the people who are already believers.
41:40: They're already those who follow God there Israelites Jeremiah 32 40 God says that he gives the fear of the
41:51: Lord to them We know that God says he does it.
41:56: I'm going to conclude that God is the one who does it That's what I'm gonna Conclude excuse me
42:04: Now Philippians 129 I'm gonna draw some things and trust me
42:09: I could tackle so many things what you just said But we're not going to get anywhere. So just for the sake of brevity.
42:16: We're gonna go into Philippians 1 I hope you're not saying that the people there who are granted the act of believing in Jesus in Christ are not unbelievers
42:33: Because a text says for to you has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in him I'm hoping you're not going to say that that's
42:43: Unbelievers that have been granted To believe in Jesus and to suffer for his sake to suffer for his sake we're talking about believers those who are
42:54: Christians Those who are suffering with the Lord for the Lord because of the
42:59: Lord Whatever it is and Philippians 1 6 I'm confident this very thing that he who began a good work in you will perfect it to the day of Christ Jesus So he's talking to the believers there and of course the believers
43:12: Unfortunately are having to suffer for Christ's sake and he wants to go and see the Philippians he wants to to go there and You know, he says in verse 27 only conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.
43:25: He's talking undoubtedly to believers now Let me paste this in again
43:32: And it's just focused on Philippians 129 here the last sentence there if it's true that God enables people to believe by reproving them
43:43: Then why does God have to grant? That they believe in him Go ahead.
43:51: What does it say that God's God's enabling them to believe? God's enabling them to believe through because a person chooses to repent
44:01: It's all dependent on a person's choosing to repent but it's all dependent on a person's choosing to repent
44:08: It's dependent on something repent and believe Okay, that's the order right
44:15: Matt mark 115 repent and believe a person isn't going to believe unless they repent first Okay, they need to repent first then they believe once they repent they can believe they can't believe without repenting first okay, so a person's
44:35: Ability or grieving granting them to believe is based on repent whether they choose to repent or not
44:42: Whether they choose to turn at God's reproof whether they choose to fear the
44:49: Lord Once again, Psalm 25 12 12 and 14 says this 5 12 to 14
44:57: What man is he that feareth the Lord keeping in mind that the fear of the Lord is a choice and the fear of the
45:03: Lord is to hate evil and pride and arrogance II him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose
45:09: God's teaching them what they shall choose The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant
45:16: Then they believe God's granting them to believe once again in Acts 13 26
45:21: It says this men and brethren Children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you fear of God She was this word of their salvation sent and the word of salvation is the gospel
45:32: God's granting them to believe based on their freewill decision to choose at God's reproof and to fear the
45:39: Lord on That you're up. Sorry about that.
45:46: You're not answering the question Now I'm going to tackle mark 115.
45:52: So you're saying the order is that they first have to repent in order to believe So person repents before he believes the gospel
46:02: So if you want to say that mark 115 is an order of salutist doctrinal statement on the order of regeneration preceding faith when this or that Well, you know get the repents which
46:13: God grants people But they can't do that because they're slaves of sin and haters of God and do no good But yet they can repent and then they believe the gospel because of the repentance.
46:20: It doesn't make any sense Back to Philippians 129
46:27: If it is true that God enables people to believe if it is true that God enables people to believe when they're reproved
46:35: Then why does God have to grant that they believe they're not answering the question You go to other verses, which
46:41: I've already addressed Psalm 25 Proverbs 125 129 and you say it's a choice
46:46: Yeah, they chose They absolutely Said in Proverbs 129.
46:52: Let me go to that quickly. Hold on one sec So I'm gonna make sure
46:58: I read it properly Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the
47:05: Lord. That's what the Proverbs 129 says You're right. They did not choose the fear of the
47:10: Lord. I already addressed that the reason they did not choose the fear of the Lord is because They're slaves of sin
47:19: Haters of God don't do any good Etc. Why I paste this in The Answer is found in Scripture Exegesis not eisegesis.
47:35: Why because the believer is deceitful and wicked full of evil love Darkness rather than light and does evil does not seek for God as ungodly child of wrath, etc.
47:45: His slave of sin That's why they didn't choose the fear of the Lord the fact is that God didn't put the fear of Him in them as he said he does in Jeremiah 32 40
47:58: That's what he says he does This is reformed theology right here That God is a sovereign
48:04: Lord. I Got a question for you Let me see it and write this out.
48:11: What is in one person's Free will That enables him to choose.
48:18: Hold on. I Need my speech program. Hold on my hands hurt too much from typing What is in a person's free will that would allow him to choose?
48:31: Where it does not allow another person to choose when both Have their free will created by them
48:40: For them, excuse me by God Well, Matt, first of all, you said that Malachi Mark 1 15 is ridiculous
48:55: Time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand repent ye and believe the gospel And you said well, it's ridiculous that a person repents and then believes
49:04: Oh, you said it was ridiculous, it doesn't make any sense that a person repents and then believes
49:10: So I would imagine that when John the Baptist says repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
49:16: He was being silly What did John the Baptist say repent?
49:23: But the kingdom of heaven is at hand before Jesus is ministry repent Okay, so you repent first and then
49:30: Jesus said in Mark 1 15 repent and believe the gospel So it's really not ridiculous.
49:36: The point that was making was really quite biblical and once again Jeremiah 32 40
49:42: I think you're repeating this and I'm giving you the same answer that I gave you before Jeremiah 32 40 God God places the fear of the
49:50: Lord in their hearts and how does he do that? Psalm 34 11 he teaches them the fear of the
49:57: Lord Okay, and as we know a person can refuse to be taught Okay, but how he places it in their heart is he teaches them and if they want to be taught
50:07: They'll be taught if they don't want to be taught. They won't be taught. It's a choice And once again, you keep on going back to Proverbs 129.
50:14: I recommend that everybody in the room read this carefully It says that they did not choose the fear of the
50:20: Lord It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the Lord very very careful when you read this verse
50:26: They hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord but God says turn you with my reproof because I have called and he
50:35: Refused the word refused there and it basically Assumes the word refused assumes ability
50:42: Okay, I I refuse to walk I could walk but I refuse to walk a person with no legs doesn't refuse to walk
50:50: He can't walk. Okay, so read these verses carefully They refuse which means they could have
50:57: Yielded and turned to God's reproof, but they chose not to so I recommend that everybody read these words okay, so Matt you asked a question before and because I had to go back and redo and Reword all your answers.
51:12: You said that I gave which I didn't do You said what is a person's free will that would allow him to choose where another does not choose?
51:21: simple the conscience Everybody has a conscience. I have a conscience you have a conscience
51:31: Love is Plato has a conscience What hell has a conscience God has instilled in every single one of us a conscience and the free will?
51:41: to choose to do good or choose to do that, which is evil and the only way a person could turn to God's reproof is to basically be
51:53: Convicted by the Holy Spirit and reproved by the Holy Spirit where that person chooses based on his conscience to yield to God's reproof and repent and believe the gospel or Embraces sin and choose to live a sinful lifestyle is based on his free will decisions to do that What enables a person to do that his conscience whatever
52:14: God gives him the liberty to do one way or the other? Okay, if a person
52:19: If a person hold on one second, let me go to John chapter 3 because I think you went to verse 19
52:25: Let me go to verse 20 for everyone that do with evil hated the light Neither come unto the light lest as these should be with reproved
52:32: But he that do with good come unto the light that as these may be manifested that they are wrought in God So God's given everybody the ability to make their own free will decisions through the reproving work of the
52:44: Holy Spirit And Matt the mic is yours you're up. Well, the fact that you're not able to answer the question demonstrates that your theological position is insufficient
52:59: There's so many things worth addressing And the time constraints and I don't want to get off topic too many times
53:05: I've addressed the Jeremiah verses and you say that he teaches them The fear of the
53:11: Lord that's how he gives it to them. That's not what the text says. I've asked specifically about 3240 and I could do the same thing that you do.
53:18: How does he teach him by giving it to them? He could teach him the fear of the Lord, but those people are all ready believers
53:24: So you teach them all that they already have he grants to them and he gives them The the issue and the ability to be able to have have fear of him.
53:34: That's what the Bible clearly tells us And of course they refused Don't make the logical mistake.
53:41: It's a mistake in logic Choose this day whom you're going to serve that means that they automatically have the ability to make that choice
53:49: Well, someone could make that claim, but is it logically necessary? Just as it says they did not choose the fear of the
53:55: Lord and not choose the way of the Lord. That's fine When we say that they did not or when the scriptures say that you cannot logically say it
54:04: Necessitates that they have the ability to be able to choose to be able to do that in order for it to be a true statement That's not not to me.
54:09: It's not logically necessary Because I've shown you from scriptures where man is
54:17: And I've pasted it in before where man is a slave of sin a hater of God does no good cannot receive spiritual things
54:24: So when we have the New Testament light shining on that proverb which is a wisdom statement not a doctrinal statement about the nature of man, but a
54:33: Wisdom statement we have the the doctrinal statements of the New Testament about man's nature
54:38: And we put it upon the Old Testament we understand Oh now I know why they did not choose is because they were not able to and God had not according to Philippians 129 granted that they believe
54:51: He hadn't granted that they believe now You said
54:58: That the reason they did not Choose I asked you about free will
55:03: Why does one person's free will enable a person to choose another one does not and your answer was because they have conscience
55:11: Well, that's not answering the question Because all I got to do is say why does one person's conscience bring a person to?
55:21: Choose God another one does not when God makes the consciences. I Began this questioning of you
55:28: I I said do you agree or deny that God makes the will the mind the body and I'm just gonna search words conscience in there because that's part of the will and Puts people in a designated place time and culture with particular parents and that God also knows exactly what the free will choice
55:44: According to conscience will be of any and all people whom he is thus made and placed in those circumstances since he's arranged it all
55:52: So I'm gonna paste this original statement in and you just put the word conscience in I'm not gonna write it in right now and waste time
55:59: The will is part as can be the conscience as part of the mind and the will So but if you agree, then how is
56:05: God not predestined and he said they do predict God does predestined But then you said by his foreknowledge of what they're gonna do, but that it's a circle
56:12: You see God according to your system here God makes their will makes their conscience puts it in them in all the
56:21: Circumstances and then he chooses them based on a free will choice. They're gonna make but wait a minute God arranged it for them to make that choice
56:29: You can't say he did not You cannot say that God is not in sovereign control of all situations and all circumstances about everything
56:38: He is he knows exactly what the outcome will be of all of the circumstances and all the variables that he put in place and he can bring a person's decision to another point a
56:53: Different decision based on whatever God desires to put into place in that person's life and In that person's creation that will result in something different God undoubtedly has that ability to do that and he does so and Since he does so because he works all things after the counsel of his will
57:15: Ephesians 111 says And he puts the mind the body the soul the will together
57:21: For you to say that he then looks in the future to see Excuse me, that I retract that that he looks in the future.
57:28: I know you don't Didn't say that that you say that he foreknows. We'll just leave it at that what decisions are gonna make and that's how he saves them
57:37: You got a logical problem. You're saying he knows ahead of time what decisions he's gonna make
57:45: Based on what he's arranged That they would do By all the circumstances the conscience the will that he's created
57:54: So you see what you're doing is arguing in a circle chasing your own tail Your position cannot answer the question.
58:01: Why does the conscience choose another conscious does not? In my perspective from my reformed theology, which
58:09: I base in Scripture. I know why Because God grants that people believe with things 129 he grants and repentance 2nd
58:18: Timothy 225 Our believing is the work of God John 6 28 29. We're born again
58:23: Not of our own wills John 113. I know that God is a sovereign.
58:29: He doesn't look around to see what's going to happen He doesn't have a foreknowledge about what people gonna do in a particular situation
58:38: And then he chooses them based on their choice, which makes
58:44: God contingent. That's not how it works I've asked you the question and what you've done is you've gone back in circles
58:53: You say the reason one will chooses is because of the conscience then quite the question
58:58: Why does one person's conscience choose and another does not can you answer that question? Why does one person's conscience choose to fear
59:09: God and another does not? Go ahead Matt I got to ask you a question.
59:16: I Mean you've been asking me a lot of questions. I got to ask you a question Can you put the word refuse in a sentence where a person refusing isn't able?
59:28: Because you're saying it says because I have called and you refused and you're saying well
59:33: They could not choose the fear of the Lord. So I'm going to ask you Can you put the word refuse in a logical sentence?
59:40: Where the person refusing isn't able? Because I think these two verses are teaching that a person is able
59:50: So I'm going to ask you to do that for the room Because there's 88 people in this room 86 besides you and I and you're saying that Refusing they did not choose the fear of the
01:00:01: Lord because they could not yet It says that they refuse so I'm going to ask you to put the word refuse in a logical sentence
01:00:07: Where the person refusing isn't able? So we can continue because I really don't think you're following a very clear point that I'm making here
01:00:16: I'm at can you come up to the mic and answer that very simple question for me? You're up Well, I don't think at the moment
01:00:27: That I can put the word refuse in a logical sentence as you've requested
01:00:34: Where person refusing isn't able? But I'm sure I can come up with I don't believe
01:00:39: I could but right here when I'm taking notes while you're speaking I Don't know if I can do that at the moment.
01:00:49: I have to think about it for a little while before I can put what you call a logical sentence a
01:00:56: Logical sentence. I'm not sure what you mean by that because we have syllogisms We have logical inferences but a logical sentence
01:01:05: I think I know what you mean. So give me some time and I'll work on one and see if I come up with something like that and then
01:01:14: I'll get it to you later because at the moment I Don't think I can devote enough silent mental energy for a minute or two or three or four to come up with something
01:01:24: But even if I could or excuse me, even if I could not It does not negate the truth of what
01:01:31: I'm telling you out of God's Word you see You are making the assumption
01:01:39: You are making the assumption that because God says to someone choose or because God Or because someone doesn't turn at his reproof that it automatically means they have the ability to do that I have already addressed this more than once the principle is true that God does require
01:02:02: That people do what they cannot naturally do Matthew 548 for example be perfect for I am perfect and nobody can do that I'm sorry
01:02:16: But notice that God gives the standard of perfection, which is himself be perfect because I'm perfect How about?
01:02:27: first Peter 116 be holy because I'm holy He gives the command to be holy.
01:02:32: He gives the command to be perfect and he gives it to the sinners Who are not holy the and to the imperfect who cannot achieve perfection because by nature they are imperfect
01:02:45: You see we in reformed circles would say that God is a standard of righteousness He's the one who requires perfection because he's perfect, but it doesn't mean we're automatically able to do it
01:02:57: This is why I'm glad you said this earlier in reference to first Peter 116 That God Grants them that holiness or imputes it.
01:03:09: I think is the word you used That he I'm answering a question that he
01:03:15: Gives them what they cannot do on their own. I'm making that case from Scripture and Showing you that that's the case
01:03:24: So when you go to Philippians 129 and you want to say that when God says that they did not turn at his reproof
01:03:31: Means that they have to be able to do that I've now shown you that that's not logically necessary and I've got scriptures to counter your argument
01:03:41: Which you've not refuted so Let's get back to Philippians one.
01:03:48: Well, I could do it another question. Tell you what? One incidentally,
01:03:54: I didn't say mark 115 was stupid. I know you kind of misspoke on that one. That's not what I'm saying Um About this because remember you said you were going to answer difficult questions
01:04:06: So let me ask you this question John 1 12 and 13, but as many as Received him to them.
01:04:15: He gave power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name Which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God, okay
01:04:26: Verse 12 is speaking of salvation of receiving Christ That's receiving
01:04:34: Christ is what it means verse 13 says that we are born and make sense to say born again how does this verse fit into your idea that God enables people to believe in him by reproving them and It's such etc.
01:04:47: Can you answer that? Go ahead? Matt you've been asking me the tough questions for the last hour and 15 minutes and I asked you a simple one
01:04:55: The simple question Matt It really was a simple question and you said you have to ponder it and really think it over and there's eight
01:05:03: There's 91 people in this room and I ask you a simple question. I took you to Proverbs 1 23 and Proverbs 129 and I asked
01:05:13: I thought I said to you Matt they refused To choose the fear of the
01:05:19: Lord and I asked you to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able
01:05:25: It should be easy for you That should be the easier. I mean
01:05:30: Matthew even us to continue This is showing ability they refused
01:05:39: They could have in other words Matt. I'm sitting in my chair right now. I Refuse to stand up.
01:05:46: That means I can stand up I'm able to stand up, but I'm refusing to stand up if I have no legs.
01:05:54: I Can't refuse to stand up. I'm unable to stand up so the fact of the matter is if because I have called and you refused because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear
01:06:05: Of the Lord first of all the word choice implies ability the word refuse implies ability
01:06:12: So I want the 90 people in this room to know that I I asked Matt a simple question
01:06:19: And he's unable to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able if God's enabling the person to choose the fear of the
01:06:27: Lord. What comes next? Psalm 25 12 and 14 What man is he that feareth the
01:06:34: Lord him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose?
01:06:40: There you go They could choose the secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant and Matt you made one other fallacy major phallus major fallacies here not
01:06:52: Matt mark 115 Jesus says repent and believe the gospel and then you come up and say repent first and then believe the gospel.
01:06:58: That's silly That's really good. That doesn't make any sense. That's silly. So it was silly and You're not addressing these things.
01:07:06: You're not saying gee golly Lou. I Made a mistake So when John the
01:07:11: Baptist said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand in Matthew 3 2 Maybe he was wrong
01:07:19: He's commanding the Jews to repent For the before Jesus's ministry the
01:07:25: Savior was coming the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world repent first then believe
01:07:36: Say you're saying how Reformed theology is biblical Matt. You made two is enabled
01:07:41: You're unable to do that and then you said repentance before believing is silly Well, it's not silly because John the
01:07:49: Baptist commands to repent and then Jesus says repent and believe So clearly it's biblical.
01:07:55: It's really not silly. And then you're going to we went to Philippians 129 with God grants
01:08:00: With God's grant granting believing he's granting believing based on a person's choosing to repent
01:08:08: Then he grants that they believe so the granting of believing is all based on a person's choosing to repent
01:08:15: And I'm answering your questions, but Matt you're not answering my simple questions So once again,
01:08:23: I'm going to repeat because we got 5 -10 minutes left in here and I really have enjoyed this conversation
01:08:28: And I want to invite everybody to Matt Slick's room because Matt's going to open up a room in a little while Okay, and go over all the answers that I didn't give but in the meantime
01:08:39: Matt for the room for your room's sake Can you really think hard?
01:08:45: Can you put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able think on that that's a major issue man because if a person is
01:08:57: Refusing Clearly they're able Okay, and that's your burden not mine
01:09:04: So Matt, I'm going to give you the mic and I'm going to give you the opportunity to ask me one more tough question
01:09:11: I've enjoyed this and I hope we can do it again All right But think of a good sentence to show your crowd in your room of a good sentence with a person refusing isn't able
01:09:22: I really want to find out what that sentence is and type it for me and send it to me in p .m
01:09:27: Because I'm really interested. I haven't heard one Calvinist come up with a sentence like that Where a person refusing isn't able a logical sentence
01:09:36: So Matt you're up. I'll give you one more shot at it You're up and I've enjoyed this by the way And I know that I'm passionate about what
01:09:42: I believe and you're passionate about what I what you believe Okay, but for all the hard questions you've asked me in the last hour and 15 minutes
01:09:51: I've asked you one simple question and you're still thinking of a good answer
01:09:56: Where I could put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able because Matt if you can't do it
01:10:03: Then maybe you can't do it. And if you can't do it Maybe the entire tulip falls apart and withers something to think about Matt.
01:10:13: You're up Wow Let me ask you am
01:10:21: I not allowed to ponder how to answer the question and get back to you later on it I already told you
01:10:29: That such a question that requires logic would require that I Bit of do a bit of contemplation and a logical examination about Developing a structure structured sentence when
01:10:43: I was debating Dan Barker an atheist. I Knew a certain Argument that he would raise it took me about a day to come up with a specific question and statement
01:10:55: To deal with something. I knew he would raise I'd hope you give me the same grace to be able to allow me to do the same thing because I think your questions an interesting one and I want to I want to explore different avenues of thoughts in order to get to to that and see if it's possible and If I can come up with something then great, but you've got to be careful if you assert that such a statement is necessary and as you
01:11:23: I think really overshot the logical requirement to say that If I can't do that about finding a sentence with the word refuse means that you're not able to do it
01:11:36: Then tulip falls apart Well, then if I do come up with something then it would be evidence that tulip is true according to your logic
01:11:44: But you see I don't believe either statement is logically necessary. I don't believe it
01:11:49: Even if I did come up with a statement that you're asking I want you to type it out exactly as you want me to respond to it
01:11:57: Okay, if you can type it out and I'll copy it now, I'll actually honestly try and get to it later on but even if I do come up with something and you say yeah there it is it still doesn't mean that the tulip is true based on something like that and The corollary would be the case.
01:12:13: It does not mean tulip is not true based on whether or not I'm not able to do that So whether I am or I'm not able to is yet to be determined Now as far as mark 115 goes
01:12:24: I did already address that I hope you're not saying that someone's going to repent without first believing that they need to turn from their sins
01:12:37: This is not a statement on what we call in theology the ordo salutas sure we should repent and he's saying repent to all of those the believers in God To the
01:12:49: Jews in the context as John the Baptist was Rick It wasn't even defined until first kind of 15 1 through 4
01:12:55: So you see their problems with your assertion around that text not that it's not a great text
01:13:00: And I do quote that and I do tell people they do need to repent and they need to believe the gospel They need to vote to do both of them
01:13:07: But if they repent it's because God grants it to them second Timothy 2 25 and if they believe it's because God grants that they believe
01:13:13: Philippians 1 29 Because Our believing is the work of God John 6 28 29 and we're born again not of our own will
01:13:24: John 1 13 I've got all these scriptures that back up the position that I'm giving now
01:13:31: I Do appreciate that you've been willing to be cross -examined and yeah, I think it takes some guts on your part
01:13:39: I Will try I thought you know I'm hoping you were going to type out the exact question with the word refused in there
01:13:47: I think that that's important that you do that because I don't want to misrepresent Your exact question when
01:13:54: I Tackle it later on to come up with a solution or an answer. I think it's a valid question
01:14:00: Actually, I'm kind of curious know if I can do it But I don't think I can do it right now because of the circumstances because it would require me to do just some serious thinking because when you say
01:14:12: Logical that's the thing that makes it difficult and it makes it challenging and actually makes entertaining in a good way
01:14:18: I want to actually try and tackle that because I like that kind of stuff It's kind of something the atheist would say not you're not an atheist, but I like those kind of intellectual challenges
01:14:28: So, please be patient with me. I'm not able to do that right now And I think that's that's a fair assessment and quality of that now.
01:14:35: Let me ask you You said initially an hour and I suspect you've got to get going maybe you got to go to work tomorrow
01:14:44: I certainly don't have to get up at in particular time I'm willing to go a little bit further if you want or if you want to call it quits now, that's fine
01:14:52: I won't say you're running. I'm not gonna say you're chicken because I don't believe that but you know if it's just Now's a good time to to Close it.
01:15:02: That's fine with me But if you want to continue I can ask you more stuff. So it's up to you. Okay, go ahead
01:15:09: Well, let me just say this Matt. I Like I said, I get an hour. It's been an hour and 20 minutes 20 and I do have to work tomorrow
01:15:17: Okay, and I am up at 6 o 'clock in the morning and probably gonna be wound up from this discussion And it's gonna probably be to 1 o 'clock in the morning before I finally fall asleep.
01:15:25: So so we'll do this again I promise you I'll give you the opportunity course examine me once in a while I'll ask you a question too, and I really
01:15:33: I tell you something and to everybody in this room Matt slick is a
01:15:39: Christian. Okay, we just disagree Emphatically on soteriology, okay
01:15:44: So, please, you know I zap Matt in chat text and in private chat and we go back and forth and I despise
01:15:54: Calvinism and Matt embraces Calvinism. So we have a difference of opinion Okay, so but I'm no no way saying that Matt's not saved or anything like that We just have a difference of opinion on a very serious topic a very serious topic
01:16:08: Calvinism I think Calvinism is a very serious topic. So I'm glad we're doing this I want
01:16:13: Matt to be treated with respect in my rooms. That's why I read dotted everybody Okay, and I hope that I'm treated with respect in Matt's room or Matt my question to you and we'll do this again
01:16:23: I'll get ahold of you maybe next week or something like that Maybe after the new year and we'll do this again, and I don't mind being put through the grinder
01:16:29: I really don't I think hope everybody in this room has learned something but Matt the question I have for you
01:16:35: First of all are the two things I wanted I would like this room to ponder Okay, Jesus says repent and believe the gospel
01:16:42: Okay, a man slit Matt says repentance being before believing is ridiculous and all that and I don't think it is
01:16:50: Because John the Baptist did say repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand Repent and believe whether it's an order salute us or not.
01:16:57: I think repent and believe Repentance comes first then believing also men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth
01:17:07: God That's repentance people who fear God repent to you with this word of salvation sent.
01:17:12: I think that also implies Repentance before believing because the gospel message is sent to all those who fear
01:17:18: God and if they fear God they repented already So I think between that prop mark 115 and Matthew 3 2 shows repenting before believing
01:17:28: But Matt my question to you is this can you show can you use the word? refuse in a sentence
01:17:35: Where the person refusing isn't able for example the man with no legs refused to walk
01:17:45: It's not a logical sentence because a man with no legs is it cannot possibly walk a man who's lazy
01:17:53: Refused to walk or refused to run. Well, that would make sense because a man who's lazy
01:17:59: With Kent is able to run. He just doesn't want to do it. So that would make sense You see what
01:18:04: I'm trying to say use the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn't able
01:18:13: Okay, that's the that's my question. Everybody. It's not it's not a complicated question So I'm hoping that Matt, you know ponders it gives us some clear thought because man
01:18:22: I'm telling you something if the person in Proverbs 129 Okay can choose the fear of the
01:18:30: Lord based on God Reproving work turn you with my reproof the
01:18:35: God acts man reacts Okay, and based on a person's choosing to fear the
01:18:41: Lord and not refusing to fear the Lord God shows the Covenant So the whole path to salvation is laid out if that person
01:18:49: Refusing is able so I think that's important. I think that's important Can you use the word refuse in a logical sentence where a person refusing isn't able?
01:19:01: Isn't able to do what he's refuses to do Yes, that's my question to match slick and I don't think this is a lot of there's a major issue here
01:19:09: Okay, so god bless you all man. I enjoyed this and once again, I hope we do this again
01:19:15: Maybe after the first of the year, okay, and you guys take it easy. God bless I got to close the room and we'll do this again some other time.