Matt Slick Live- Debate with Lou Rugg on Calvinism

Calvinism, Double Predestination, and the Charge That God Authors Sin

Okay, I'm going to explain to you guys why I've been refuting Calvinism or trying to refute Calvinism for the last 10 years. First of all, Reformed theology teaches double predestination. I don't believe in double predestination.

It teaches that John Calvin taught by predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to God. And accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death.

That's what John Calvin wrote. I don't believe that. I don't believe it's biblical at all. Number two, a holy God does not author or decree sin. That, to me, is a fundamental falsehood. That's the second reason why I despise Calvinism.

John Calvin taught creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed, which would include sin. I don't believe that God authors or decrees sin, but Calvinists believe that.

Also, is Reformed theology correct? Does sin have a holy purpose, as Calvinists would claim? If Calvinists believe that sin has a holy purpose, who are they to say that sin is evil? Maybe they should say that sin is good.

After all, God has a purpose for it. And according to them, it must be a good purpose. When Calvinists say that sin is evil while believing that God uses it for a good purpose, doesn't that mean that maybe the Calvinists are ungodly?

They really should be saying that sin is good because God uses it for good. Third reason. Calvinism defies biblical logic and proclaims a double-minded God with a split personality. For example, God said thou shalt not kill, but God decreed man to kill.

Why would God decree a man to do what he commended them not to do? This is a logical fallacy. In Mark 3 .25, Jesus said, If a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And Calvinists teach a God that's divided against himself.

Example number two. In Acts 17 .30, God commands all men everywhere to repent. But Calvinism teaches that man can't repent unless God regenerates them first. So why is God commanding man to do something that he's unable to do?

Why do Calvinists approach a sinner, imploring them to repent, if they're unable to repent? Why do Calvinists rebuke a sinner for sinning if God is the one who decreed them to sin in the first place? Shouldn't they be rebuking God after all?

The sinner wouldn't have sinned unless God decreed it in the first place. It's not the sinner's fault. It's God's fault. According to Calvinism, once a man is regenerated, he can't help but repent. So why is God making it a command at all if a person can't help but repent once he's regenerated?

Doesn't that sound silly? Example number three. God's justice is non-existent in Calvinism. According to Calvinism, God decrees a man to sin, and God decrees a man to do that which is good. For example, God takes his non-elect, decrees them to sin, doesn't regenerate them so they can repent, and then punishes them for the sin that he decreed that they wouldn't have committed unless he decreed it in the first place.

God takes his elect, decrees them to do that which is good, regenerates them, and then rewards them for the good that they wouldn't have done unless he decreed them to do it in the first place. Both the non-elect and the elect act solely within God's decrees.

Where's the justice? Where's the accountability? And finally, Calvinists proclaims a God that hates his enemies. Meanwhile, God commands us to love our enemies. According to Calvinism, God isn't willing to do what he commands his creation to do.

To me, that's a hypocritical God. And those are four of the main reasons why I despise Calvinism. There are more, but those are the four main ones. Keeping that in mind, I'm going to let Matt have at me and ask me some of those tough questions.

So Matt Slick, the mic is yours, you're up.

Divine Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, and Human Free Will

Lou, I'd be interested, apparently you read that, so I'd be interested in if you would be willing to send me that and then I could respond to it. No offense meant to you, Lou, but I don't think you understand a lot of Reformed theology.

I don't think you understand decretive will, prescriptive will, permissive will, what ordination means. And I think you're confused, no disrespect Matt, because you don't understand how we define those things.

I think it would be a good service to you and to others if you were to send me that and then I could respond to it with some more refined responses. Okay, I don't know if you want to do that or not, but you can.

The address would be here. And then maybe I can put the response up on my website, calvinistcorner .com. I wrote some questions up and I figured it would probably be better if I were to write them up so I could paste them.

Tell you what, someone has the recordings. We can just get somebody to transcribe it. Good enough and then I'll just respond to it. They'll send it to me. No big deal. So there are lots of questions I can ask.

And I do appreciate you finally being willing to at least address or try to address some of the difficult questions. So let me ask you this. I'll paste it and read it so people can hear for the recording as well.

Do you agree or deny that God makes the will, the mind, the body, etc., and puts people in a designated place, time, and culture with particular parents? If not, why not? But how is God not predestining people to salvation or damnation by his sovereign arrangement of all factors that are under his control?

Go ahead. Well, first of all, he puts people in a designated place. I'll get you the verse for that while you're asking me the second question. Matt, could you come up to the mic and repeat the second portion of your question?

He said, if you agree, then how is God not predestining people? Well, God's not predestining people to do one or the other. God just happens to know the free will decisions that people are going to make or predestining them to salvation or condemnation or versus salvation.

He just happens to know, because he's omniscient, all of man's free will decisions that they're going to make based on where God placed them. Okay, so the mic is yours. You're up. Lou, you're not answering the question.

He's saying that he knows. He's saying that he simply knows what free will choices are going to make. It's problematic because it means that God is then contingent upon the choices of individuals. That means he is independent.

He's non-contingent. He is self-sufficient. And as such, he has no dependency on anything or anyone else. If you were to say that God knows what their free will choices are going to be, then he predestines accordingly.

Then what you're saying is God's choices are then contingent upon the so-called free will choices of man. And that violates the doctrine of God's asceticity. Now, the issue is that if God knows exactly what the free will choices of man are predestining them, since he knows exactly what those free will choices will be under any circumstance that he has sovereignly arranged.

Go ahead.

Well, he's predestining them based on their free will choices. Oh, by the way, here's the passage, by the way, Acts 17 .26 and Acts 17 .27, that God places all men and has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth and has determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation that they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him and find him, that we may be not far away from every one of us.

So God places every single person on the planet close enough where they could seek after him. Now, as far as predestination, I believe in predestination, by the way. I believe in predestination. But man is predestined based on what God foreknows within his very being.

Because God doesn't need to look down the corridors of time to find out what man's going to do. Man is predestined based on God's foreknowledge of what he knows their free will decisions are going to be before they make them.

God knows whether I'm saved or not before I was even born. Tracy loves Jesus. God knows whether Tracy loves Jesus. But God knows beforehand whether they're going to be saved or saved before they're even born.

Because he's omniscient. But he doesn't do that because he's not predestined them. He knows because he foreknows whether they go into free will decisions before they even make them. That's how God predestines.

Matt Slick, you're up. Well, that's still problematic. I'm glad you are moving towards orthodoxy and affirming the doctrine of predestination. But you don't understand that if God predestines, then what you're doing is you're saying that God's decision to save someone is based upon a quality, ability, or choice of an individual.

Engined upon man's choices. This means they're going to do, and then he saves them based on what they're going to do, which means independence. Which has existed from eternity past. You're saying that within that, he looked down the corridor of time because it had to be that.

I know you said he didn't. But the problem is that he would have to know all things and all situations. And even if we want to work with what you're saying, it's still problematic. Because there are, so to speak, an infinite number of potential existences that God could have brought into reality.

He chose the one he decided. And therefore, whatever free will choices anyone's going to make in any situation, God has brought into actuality by creating the universe the way he did. So he is, therefore, predestining them.

Absolutely. Now along those questions of the free will, I think what I'll do is ask a question about that. I'll type this in here. I'll paste it in. Hold on, a window came up. Let me close it. Nothing happens.

Okay, good. Nope, another one came up. Okay, sorry. Sorry, a window popped up. Why does one person's free will move him to believe, but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurs?

So why does one person's free will move him to believe, but another's free will does not? This is in the context of God's reproving. Or knowing, foreknowing. Doesn't God know how... That doesn't really work for this question.

Let me rephrase this. Why does one person's free will choose God when another does not? Why is it... You say they're free will choices. Why is it that one person believes and another person does not? If you say it's because of their free will, then you're not answering the question.

What I want to do is have you answer specifically. What is it about one individual, as compared to another individual, that has the one individual receive God and another one does not, when it is God who makes their free wills?

Could you answer that?

Go ahead. First of all, I have to go back and answer your other question. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. 1 Peter 1 -2 answers your previous question. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

God elects those based on his foreknowledge. God doesn't need to look down the corridors of time. God knows within his very being all free will decisions that man is going to make before he makes them.

Also, Galatians 6 -5 says this, For every man shall bear his own burden. I wanted to go back and answer your previous question that we are elect based on God's foreknowledge. Now, based on your other question, Why does one person's free will move him to believe, but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurs?

Well, we'll go back to John 16 -8, where it's the Holy Spirit who reproves the world of sin. So when we hear the Gospel message, it's the Holy Spirit that's convicting the sinner. So, now, does the sinner turn at God's reproof?

As Proverbs 1 -23 teaches, where Proverbs 1 -23 says, Turn you at my reproof. What does it mean to turn at God's reproof? To turn at God's reproof means to repent. We can't turn at God's reproof unless he's reproving first.

God reproves. God commands man to turn at his reproof. And whether that man turns at God's reproof or not is based on whether or not he chooses to fear the Lord. Now, what's the fear of the Lord? Proverbs 8 -13 teaches that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil, pride, and arrogancy in the evil way, and the proud amount do I hate.

So, when God's reproving work occurs, God is enabling the individual to choose whether to fear the Lord or not. God is instilled in every single person a conscience. So when God's working on our conscience, He's calling on us to repent.

Do we fear the Lord? Do we hate evil? Are we prideful? If we're prideful, or we embrace evil, we're not going to turn at God's reproof. But if we're humble, and we hate evil, and God's giving us that choice through His reproving work, we're going to choose to fear the Lord.

And if we choose to fear the Lord, this is what happens when a person fears the Lord. Psalm 25, 12 -14 says this, What man is he that feareth the Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him, and He will show them His covenant. Now, the covenant is Christ, because when you turn to Acts chapter 13, verse 26, it says, Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is this word of salvation sent.

So the word of salvation, Matt, is to all those who choose to fear God. Because only the God-fearer is going to accept the gospel message, because the God-fearer hates his sin, and is humble. The non-God-fearer embraces his sin, and is prideful.

So the non-God-fearer is going to accept the gospel, and the God-fearer, based on the fact that he's humble, and he hates his sin, and God's enabling them to do that through His reproving work, and the fact that man has a conscience, that enables man to choose whether or not to repent or turn to God's reproof.

So I hope I answered your other question.

Matt, Slick, you're up. Well, the problem is that we're not focusing, and you're introducing all kinds of things. You've introduced several scriptures. And then my response will be five minutes, and your response will be ten minutes.

I specifically asked a question, which I'll paste in here. First of all, Proverbs 8, 13, the fear of the Lord is to hate evil. It doesn't say that people are enabled to hate evil by being reproved or by being enlightened or anything.

It just says that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil. Nothing in the text designates anything other than that. As far as Proverbs 1, 23 goes, this is a personification of wisdom. It's not a doctrinal statement about the character or ability of the saved or unsaved.

Proverbs is a collection of wisdom statements and a subsequent responsibility that people have to follow God's truth. But don't make the mistake of thinking that a command of God automatically means that a person is able to accomplish it.

Now, you brought that up, and I want to show you that this principle that you reject is actually scripture. It's actually biblical. I'll paste this in, and you can take a look at it. See, God often requires what we cannot accomplish.

In 1 Peter 1, 16, God says to be holy because he is holy. But a person cannot be holy in and of himself. We see that God commands everyone everywhere to repent, Acts 17, 30, but it is God who grants repentance, 2 Timothy 2, 25.

We see that God commands people to believe in him, yet he opens their hearts to believe, as he did with Lydia in Acts 16, 14. He grants that people believe in Philippians 1, 29. This is why Romans 9, 16 says,.

It does not depend upon the man who wills or the man who runs, but upon God who has mercy. The point is this, that when you say or imply that God will not require something of someone that they're not able to do, well, yes, he does.

He absolutely does. 1 Peter 1, 16 proves that that is the case. Be holy because I'm holy. Nobody can be holy. Only God is holy, but he gives us the holiness that we need through Christ, and that's by his decree, not by our will.

So your statement is invalid. It's not biblical, and I've shown you that. Now, you went on to Psalm 25, and I forgot which exact verse, but that's a psalm written by David, and he's already a believer.

There's nothing in there about being enabled in any way to come to believe in God just by being a person who fears God. It simply asks, who is the man who fears the Lord? That's what it does in, I think, verse 12.

Who is the one who fears the Lord? There's nothing in there at all that demonstrates to us or tells us in any way, shape, or form how a person comes to fear the Lord. However, the Bible does tell us that that is the case.

Let me find the verse, and I'll post it in here. He tells us how we do come to fear the Lord. And this is Jeremiah 32, 40. And I'll make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them to do them good, and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me.

So we know because God is the one who puts the fear in their hearts. Whenever you quote any verse that says, well, those who fear him, well, my question is, why do they fear him? They fear him because God put the fear of him in them.

That's what he says he does. That's the answer to that. So my question, and we're going through a lot of stuff here, and this is why I want to focus on one thing at a time. I think you're making an assumption that is not warranted in any of the verses that you've cited.

You say or you imply that a person is unable to believe by being reproved, by being urged, by being commanded. And that's not what the scripture is teaching. Oh, I just remembered foreknowledge. Let me address that really fast.

If you do a study on the word know, K-N-O-W in the Greek is ginosko, you'll find that God only knows believers. If you go to Romans 8 .29, for example, those whom he foreknew he also predestined. That's proginosko.

The ones who are foreknown are also the ones predestined. We see the pattern in scripture where God says he only knows those who are his. That's the pattern that God has set up. When people are elected by the foreknowledge of God, it's concomitant or it is similar to this issue of Romans 8 .29 and 30 where God only knows those who are his.

He knows them because he's called them to himself, as Acts 13 .48 says. We'll get to that. So foreknowledge does not mean looking down the corridors of time or knowing ahead of time. Because if he does not look down the corridors of time, there is no foreknowledge to be had.

See, God knows all things instantaneously and eternally. There is no foreknowledge in that sense. He can't foreknow ahead of time because with God there is no time. There is no looking down the corridor, looking beyond or looking within or anything.

It's just simply all knowledge is eternally consistent and instantaneous with God from all time. Foreknowledge doesn't mean that he looked in any way, shape, or form to see what the free will choices of people would be.

As I said before, that would make him contingent. It would violate that issue. If you do a study on the word know, K-N-O-W, as it relates to salvation, you'll see he only knows believers and those whom he foreknew.

He also predestined the foreknown ones are the predestined ones or the same group. So, back to this question. Can you show me any scripture? Can you show me any scripture? I'll paste this in. Sorry about that.

Can you show me any scripture that says that when a person is reproved by God that he is unable to believe? Now, don't just assume that's the case. Show it to me from scripture without reading into the text.

Go ahead.

The Fear of the Lord, Reproof, and Repentance

First of all, there are a number of fallacies, Matt, that I need to address before I answer your question. First of all, the fear of the Lord is a choice. Proverbs 129. To the unrepentant sinner for they hate and knowledge.

It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the Lord. It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. There's a big difference in words here. The fear of the Lord is clearly a choice. God says, turn you with my reproof.

The fear of the Lord is a choice. That's clear. Now, let me go to 1 Peter 1 .16. God says to be holy as I am holy. We can be holy as God is holy. Do you know how? Christ imputed righteousness. When God sees us as Christians, He sees Christ's righteousness in us.

He sees Christ's holiness in us. That's how we can be holy as God is holy. That's the only way. Imputed righteousness. Now, how does God put the fear of the Lord in their heart? He teaches the fear of the Lord.

Psalm 34 .11 says this regarding the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is taught. And a person can refuse to be taught. That's another thing. I wanted to address that. Also, 2 Timothy 2 .25 teaches that God grants repentance.

I think it's in 2 Timothy 2 .25. Let me post the verse. I think you caught it from the ESV, which is fine. Read 2 Timothy 2, Matt. That's not to everybody. God's granting a person to repent to a person who He has turned over to a reprobate mind.

These are people who are teaching falsely, who have turned away from the truth, and are teaching falsely, and have gone into heresy. God grants them repentance if these people realize what they've been doing.

But God doesn't grant everyone repentance. God commands repentance. A person who decides to choose and turn to follow other religions after being shown the truth, God turns over to a reprobate mind. If that person realizes, Oh my goodness, what have I done?

God's granting those people repentance. God doesn't grant everyone repentance. God commands all to repent. And the only way you could repent is through God's reproving work. He says, turn you at My reproof.

They choose to fear the Lord. If they choose to fear the Lord, they're going to turn at His reproof. Turning at His reproof means to repent. Turning at God's reproof means to repent. Ezekiel 33 .11 says this.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turning from his way means to repent. Turn ye, turn ye from your own evil ways.

That's repentance. Okay? Turning from a person's wicked ways is repentance. Okay? God commands that and God enables that through His reproving work. Okay? Now, I got to go. What was your previous question, Matt?

Because you've made a lot of fallacies and I forgot what your last question was. Can you come up to the mic and repeat it? You're up.

Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God, that he is also enabled to believe? You see, what you're doing is begging the question. You're assuming that when someone's reproved, they're enabled to believe.

And I'm glad that you agree with me. The good reformed theology of 1 Peter 1 .16, that God commands what people cannot do. We cannot be holy. God imputes it to us. Exactly correct. He also grants that we believe.

2 Timothy 2 .25. Excuse me. Grants that we believe. Philippians 1 .29. Grants that we have repentance. 2 Timothy 2 .25, et cetera. So, good reformed theology. You're coming along. I appreciate that. That's the question.

Can you show me any scripture that says that when a person is reproved by God, that he is also enabled to believe? Go ahead.

Matt, first of all, I haven't agreed with you once. So, to say that I'm, like, coming along nicely to me is, like, it's an insult to my intelligence. I don't think I've agreed with you once in this whole thing.

So, let me put this up front. Be holy as I am holy. The only way you can be as holy as God is holy is imputed righteousness. That's number one. Number two, 2 Timothy 2 .25, God grants repentance to those who have God turned over to a reprobate mind.

2 Timothy 2 is about false teachers, those who have gone into heresy. God's not granting repentance to every single human being and enabling all to repent like you're claiming. So, Matt, you've been off kilter for the last half an hour.

And for you to say that I'm coming along nicely and I'm agreeing with reformed theology, I think everybody in this room is intelligent enough to realize that that certainly is not the case. Now, can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe?

Yeah, right here. Acts 13 .26, Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you that feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. The gospel message is sent strictly to the God-fearer.

Why? Because Acts 10 .34 -35 says this, Peter said, Of a truth I believe that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him. God accepts the God-fearer.

And Paul is saying that the gospel message is sent only to the God-fearer. Why? Because only the God-fearer will accept it. Jesus said in Mark 1 .15 this, Repent and believe the gospel. Mark 1 .15, Repent and believe the gospel.

So what happens first? Repentance first. Then comes the belief. That's the order. Repent, then believe. So you ask me, can I show you a verse which teaches that a person upon fearing God or repenting could believe?

Right there, Jesus' words in Mark 1 .15. Matt, you're up. Oh, by the way, foreknowledge? Look it up. Foreknowledge means to know beforehand. That's what foreknowledge means. To know beforehand.

Matt, you're up. Well, Lou, I'd recommend that you do a Bible study on the term foreknowledge and how God uses it along with the word know. K-N-O-W, ginosko in the Greek. And you'll see that he only foreknows the believers in that sense, in that context.

So check it out. You should do that. You've not shown me what I've asked. You've begged the question. You see, Proverbs 1 .29, they did not choose. Of course they did not choose. When you say they did not choose, so therefore it's a choice, it doesn't mean that they had this inherent ability to be able to choose.

It just says they did not choose. We know why they did not choose. Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked, Jeremiah 17 .9. He's full of evil, Mark 7 .21 -23. He loves darkness rather than light and does evil, John 3 .19.

He does not seek for God nor does any good, Romans 3 .10 -12. He's ungodly, Romans 5 .6. He's dead in his sins, Ephesians 2 .1. By nature a child of wrath, Ephesians 2 .3. He cannot accept or understand spiritual things, 1 Corinthians 2 .14.

He's a slave of sin, Romans 6 .16 -20. That's why they didn't choose. For you to say Proverbs 1 .29 means that they had the ability to choose simply because they're told to be reproved, to turn, whatever it is.

Doesn't mean that they have the inerrant ability, especially when we see scriptures that speak to the contrary. You see, if you're going to rest everything on a single verse, and I know you don't just do that kind of a thing.

But you do tend to take one verse and put it above basically all other verses. And that's a problem. Because when we look at what the scriptures tell us about the unbeliever, we discover that the unbeliever is just as I pasted right there.

He's deceitful and wicked, full of evil, and etc. So, you've said that I've made a lot of fallacies, a lot of logical errors. Well, I'm saying you're making a lot of them. The problem here right now is that I can start listing out all the ones you did, and then we have a counter to counter, and we're not going to get anywhere.

So what I'm going to do is focus on a few things, because we have to do that in order to get through some of the more difficult questions. Because there are a lot of questions I've got for you, and ours is not going to be long enough.

But in light of what I'm saying here, in light of what the scripture says, you must not mistakenly assume that they did not choose the fear of the Lord because they have the free will ability to do so once enlightened.

Or once called. Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked, just as I've said. We know from Jeremiah 32 .40 that God gives it to them. He puts it in their heart. Why did they not choose the fear of the Lord?

Because God had not put it in their heart to fear Him. That's what the scriptures teach. That God puts it in the heart of people to fear Him. Jeremiah 32 .40. That's what He says. So when I ask the question, or you ask the question, or anybody does in the text, why is it they did not choose the fear of the Lord?

Because God hadn't given them that. Just as He hadn't given the people repentance in 2 Timothy 2 .25, the false teachers. Let's go with that. False teachers. You're right. He's got to give it to them.

Why? Because it's not in their free will to do that. Because they are by nature children of wrath. And all unbelievers, according to scripture, are false teachers. All unbelievers work against God. All unbelievers are slaves of sin, Romans 6 .14 .2 .20.

All unbelievers cannot receive the things of God for their foolishness to them. 1 Corinthians 2 .14. All unbelievers fit in that category. God has to grant it to them. God has to do that. Now, so let's see if we can get a slight change of direction.

I want to ask you a question about Philippians 1 .29. This is where it says that God grants that people believe. Now, in the King James, it's the word given. For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

King James says given. That's a Greek word charizomai. It is used in the following verses. You can check them out later. So if it is true that God enables people to believe when they're reproved or when they're enlightened, or it's just their choice, then why is it that God has to grant that they believe if the believing that they're going to accomplish is by their own free will?

Why does God have to grant it to them if it's really up to them? Go ahead.

Matt, I think I addressed before that God places the fear of the Lord in a person's heart by teaching it. I think I said that before. And once again, Matt, Proverbs 1 .29, I need to repeat these things, and I don't know if you're listening to what I'm saying.

Proverbs 1 .29 says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the Lord. I mean, read the verse carefully. It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord.

Fear of the Lord is a choice. They could have chosen, but they didn't. Turn you with my reproof. A person, you see, you're putting words in my mouth, and then you're refuting what I'm saying. You're saying that I'm claiming that man has the inherent ability to choose to fear God.

No, I'm not saying that at all, Matt. Man doesn't have the inherent ability to fear God at all. Man needs to be reproved by God in order to have that ability to fear God. Okay? Reproof comes first. Turn you at my reproof.

So, Matt, I don't know if you're paying attention to what I'm saying. And then you're coming up to the mic, and you're putting words in my mouth, and you're saying that I'm saying silly things, but I'm not.

I don't know if you're listening. Man doesn't have the inherent ability to do anything without God doing something first. God reproves. Man turns at God's reproof. Man can't turn at God's reproof unless he's being reproved.