Matt Slick Live- Debate with Lou Rugg on Calvinism

Okay, I'm gonna explain to you guys why I've been refuting Calvinism or trying to refute Calvinism for the last 10 years first of all

Reformed theology teaches double predestination. I don't believe in double predestination. It teaches that John Calvin taught by predestination.

We mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself Why don't whatever he wished to happen with regard not created on equal terms

But some are preordained to eternal life others to eternal damnation and accordingly as each has been created for one or other of these

Ends we say that he has been predestined to life or to death. That's what John Calvin wrote. I don't believe that I don't believe it's biblical at all number two a

Holy God does not author or decree sin that to me is a fundamental falsehood

That's the second reason why I despise Calvinism John Calvin taught creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God that nothing happens

But what he has knowingly and willingly decreed which would include sin I don't believe that God authors or decrease in but Calvinist believe that Also is if is reformed theology correct the

Sun have a holy purpose is Calvinist would claim if Calvinist believe that sin has a holy purpose

Who are they to say that sin is evil? Maybe they should say that sin is good after all

God has a purpose for it and according to them It must be a good purpose

When Calvinists say that sin is evil while believing that God uses it for a good purpose Doesn't that mean that maybe the

Calvinists are ungodly. They really should be saying that sin is good because God uses it for good third reason

Calvin Calvinism defies biblical logic and proclaims a double -minded God with a split personality for example

God said thou shalt not kill But God decreed man to kill Why would

God decree a man to do what he commanded them not to do? This is a logical fallacy in Mark 325

Jesus said if a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand and Calvinist teacher

God teaches a God that's divided against himself Example number two in Acts 17 30

God commands all men everywhere to repent But Calvinism teaches that man can't repent unless God regenerates them first So why is

God commanding man to do something that he's unable to do? Why do Calvinist approach a sinner?

Imploring them to repent if they're unable to repent Why do Calvinist rebuke a sinner for sinning if God is the one who decreed them to sin in the first place

Shouldn't they be rebuking God after all the sinner wouldn't have sinned unless God decreed it in the first place

It's not the sinners fault. It's God's fault According to Calvinism once the man is regenerated.

He can't help but repent So why is God making it a command at all if a person can't help but repent once he's regenerated

Doesn't that sound silly? Example number three God's justice is non -existent in Calvinism According to Calvinism God decrees a man to sin and God decrees a man to do that which is good

For example God takes his his non elect Decrees them to sin

Doesn't regenerate them so they can repent and then punishes them for the sin that he decreed that they wouldn't have committed

Unless he decreed it in the first place God takes his elect decrees them to do that, which is good

Regenerates them and then rewards them for the good that they wouldn't have done unless he decreed them to do it in the first place

Both the non elect and the elect act solely within God's decrees

Where's the justice? Where's the accountability and finally?

Calvinist proclaims a God that hates his enemies Meanwhile God commands us to love our enemies

According to Calvinism God isn't willing to do what he commands his creation to do to me that's a hypocritical

God and Those are four of the main reasons why I despise Calvinism There are more but those are the four main ones keeping that in mind

I'm gonna let Matt have at me and ask me some of those tough questions So Matt Slick the mic is yours.

You're up Lou I'd be interested Apparently you read that so I'd be interested in if you would be willing to send me that and then

I can respond to it Not no offense meant to you Lou, but I don't think you understand a lot of reformed theology

I don't think you understand to creative will prescriptive will permissive will what ordination means and I think you're confused

No disrespect meant because you don't understand how we define those things I think it would be a good service to you and to others if you were to send me that and then

I could Respond to it with some more refined responses okay, I don't you want to do that or not, but you can and the address would be here and Then maybe

I can put the response up on my website Calvinist corner calm All right

So here I'm gonna I wrote some questions up and I figured it would probably be better if I were to write them up So I could paste them oh, yeah, well, okay, well then say what someone has the

We have recordings we just get somebody transcribe it good enough and then I'll just respond to it.

They'll send it to me. No big deal So there's lots of questions I can ask and I do appreciate you finally be willing to at least address or try to address some of the difficult questions

So let me ask you this. I'll paste it and Read it so people can hear For the recording as well

Do you agree or deny that God makes the will the mind the body etc and puts people?

in a designated place time I'm and culture with particular parents at all if not, why not?

But how is God not predestining people to salvation or damn? Nation by his sovereign arrangement of all factors

That are under his control Go ahead Well, well, first of all and puts them puts people in a designated place 15

I believe I'll get you the verse for that while you're asking me the second question As far as what and Matt could you come up to the mic and repeat the second portion of your question?

I said if you agree, then how is God not predestining people? Well, God's not God's pre God's not predestining people to do

One or the other God just happens to know the free will decisions that people are going to make before Predestining them to salvation or condemnation or versus salvation

He just happens to know because he's omniscient all of man's free will decisions that they're going to make based on where God placed them

Okay, so Matt the Mac Mike is yours. You're up Lou you're not answering the question saying that he knows

The saying that he simply knows what free will choice are going to make Problematic because it means that God is then contingent upon the choices of individuals, there's a

And that means he is independent. He's non -contingent. He is self -sufficient and As such he has no dependency on anything or anyone else

If you were to say that God knows what their free will choices are going to be Then he predestines accordingly.

Then what you're saying is God's choices are then contingent upon the so -called free will choices of man

And that violates the doctrine of God's a second deity Now the issue is that if God knows exactly what the free will choices of man estimating them

Since he knows exactly what those free will choices will be under any circumstance that he is sovereignly arranged.

Go ahead Well, he's pre Okay, can you guys hear me? He's predestined them based on their free will choices

Oh, by the way, here's the here's the passage by the way at 1726 and at 1727

That God places all men and had made of one blood all nations all of men

For to dwell on all the face of the earth and had determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their

Habitation that they should seek the Lord if happily they might feel after him and find him though We may not far away from every one of us

So God places every single person and on the planet close enough where they could they could they could they could seek after him

Okay, good. Now as far as pre that I believe in double I believe in predestination by the way,

I Believe in predestination But man is predestined based on what God foreknows within his very being

Because God doesn't need to look down the card as a time to find out what man's going to do Man is predestined based on God's foreknowledge of what he knows

Their free will decisions are going to be before they make them God knows whether I'm Saved or not before I was even born

Tracy loves Jesus God knows whether Tracy loves Jesus, but I'd knows Beforehand whether they're going to be saved or saved before they've even born

Because he's omniscient, but he doesn't do it because he's not predestined them He basically is make it he knows because he foreknows whether they go into it will decisions

Before they even make them. That's how God predestines Matt slick you're up Well, that's still problematic

I'm glad you are moving towards orthodoxy and affirming the doctrine of predestination

But in your you don't understand that if God predestined

And what you're doing is you're saying that God's decision to save someone is based upon equality ability or choice of an individual

Injunct upon man's choices This means they're going to do and then he saves them based on what they're going to do which means got independence

Which has existed from eternity past You're saying that? Within that he looked down the corridor of time because it had to be that I know you said you didn't

But the problem is that he would have to know all things in all situations And even if we want to work with what you're saying

It's still problematic because there are so to speak an infinite number of potential existences that God could have brought into reality he chose the one he decided and Therefore whatever free will choices anyone's going to make in any situation

God has brought into Actuality by creating the universe the way he did so he is therefore predestining them absolutely

Now along those questions of the free will I Think what I'll do is ask you a question about that.

I'll type this in here, okay, I Paste it in hold on a window came up.

Let me close it. Nothing happens Okay, good. Nope another one came up. Okay.

Sorry. Sorry windows popped up just really quickly Why does one person's free will

Mm -hmm Why does one person's free will move him to believe but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurs

So why does one person's free will move him to believe but another free will does not? This is the context of God approving which is or knowing for knowing doesn't

God know how? It doesn't really work for this question. Let me rephrase this Why does one person's free will choose

God when another does not why is it you say they're free will choices

Why is it that one person believes and another person does not if you say it's because of their free will that you're not?

Answering the question What I want to do is have you answer specifically. What is it about one individual?

As compared to another individual that has the one or individual Receive God and another one does not when it is

God who makes their free wills. Could you answer that? Go ahead? First of all,

I have to go back and answer your other question elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father First Peter 1 2 answers your previous question elect according to the foreknowledge of God the

Father So God elects those based on his foreknowledge Based on gotten that God doesn't need to look down the corridors of time

God knows within his very being all free will decisions that man is going to make before he makes them also a

Galatians 6 5 says this for every man shall bear his own burden Okay, so I wanted to go back and answer your previous question that we are elect based on God's foreknowledge

Okay now Now based on okay your other question Why does one person's free will move him to believe but another person's free will does not after God's reproving occurrence?

Well, what we'll go back to John chapter 16 verse 8 where it's the

Holy Spirit who reproves the world of sin So when we hear the gospel message, it's the Holy Spirit that's convicting the sinner

So now does the sinner turn it God's reproof as Proverbs 1 23 teaches where Proverbs 1 23 says?

Turn you with my reproof What what does it mean to turn at God's reproof to turn at God's reproof means to repent?

We can't turn at God's reproof unless he's reproving first God reproves God commands man to turn at his reproof and Whether that man turns at God's reproof is not is based on whether or not he chooses to fear the

Lord Now what's the fear of the Lord? Proverbs 8 13 teaches that the fear of the

Lord is to hate evil pride and arrogancy and the evil way in the Proud Mount do I hate so when

God when God's reproving work occurs? God is enabling the individual to choose whether to fear the

Lord or not The con God is instilled in every single person a conscience

Okay, so when God's working on our conscience, he's calling on us to repent.

Do we fear the Lord? Do we hate evil? Are we prideful if we're prideful or we?

We are we embrace evil. We're not going to turn at God's reproof But if we're humble and we hate evil and God's giving us that choice through his reproving work

We're going to choose to fear the Lord and if we choose to fear the Lord This is what happens when a person fears the

Lord Psalm 25 12 through 14 says this what man is he that feareth the

Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose The secret of the

Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant Now the covenant is

Christ because when he turned to Acts chapter 10 Acts chapter right there was the

Acts chapter 13 verse 26 It says men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth

God To you is this word of salvation sent So the word of salvation Matt is to all those who choose to fear

God Because only the God fearer is going to accept the gospel message because the God fearer hates his sin and is humble

The non God fearer embraces sin and is prideful so the non

God fearer is going to accept the gospel and the God fearer based on the fact that he's humble and he hates

And God's Enabling them to do that who was reproving work and the fact that man has a conscience that enables

God that enables man to choose Whether or not to repent or turn to God's reproof.

So I hope I answered your other question Matt slick you're up Well, the problem is that we're not focusing and you're introducing all kinds of things.

You've introduced several scriptures and Then my response will be five minutes in your response.

That'll be ten minutes. I'm gonna drink of water. I Specifically asked a question, which

I'll I'll paste in here First of all Proverbs 813 the fear of the Lord is to hate evil

It doesn't say that people are enabled to hate evil By being reproved or by being enlightened or anything.

It just says that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil Nothing in the text designates anything other than that As far as Proverbs to 123 goes this is a personification of wisdom

It's not a doctrinal statement about the character or ability of the saved or unsaved Proverbs is a collection of wisdom statements and a subsequent responsibility that people have to follow

God's truth But don't make the mistake of thinking that a command of God automatically means that a person is able to accomplish it

Now you brought that up And I want to show you that this principle that you reject is actually scripture

Is actually biblical I'll paste this in and you can take a look at it See God often requires what we cannot accomplish in 1st

Peter 1 16 God says to be holy because he is holy But a person cannot be holy in and of himself

We see that God commands everyone everywhere to repent at 1730, but it is God who grants repentance second

Timothy 225 We see that God commands people to believe in him Yet he opens their hearts to believe as he did with Lydia in Acts 16 14 and then

He grants that people believe in Philippians 129. This is why Romans 9 16 says It does not depend upon the man who will for the man who runs but upon God who has mercy hit the point is this that when you say

That God or imply that God will not be able to or will not require something of someone that They're not able to do.

Well, yes, he does He absolutely does 1st Peter 1 16 proves that that is the case

Be holy because I'm holy. Nobody can be holy only God is holy, but he Gives us the holiness that we need through Christ and that's by his decree not by our will

So your statement is invalid. It's not biblical and I've shown you that now you went on to someone or excuse me

Psalm 25 and Forgot which exact verse But that's the a psalm written

By David and he's already a believer There's nothing in there about being enabled in any way to to come to believe in God Just by being a

Person who fears God it simply asks who is the man who fears the Lord?

That's what it doesn't in I think verse 12 Who is the one who fears the Lord? There's nothing in there at all that Demonstrates to us or tells us in any way shape or form how a person comes to fear the

Lord however The Bible does tell us That that is the case

When you find the verse and I'll post it in here He tells us how we do come to fear the

Lord and this is Jeremiah 32 40 And I'll make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them to do good to To do them good and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me

So we know because God is the one who puts the fear in their hearts Whenever you quote any verses that say well those who fear him well my question is why do they fear him they fear him because God put the fear of the heart of him in them.

That's what he says. He does. That's the answer to that so My question

We're going to do a lot of stuff here, and this is why I want to focus on one thing at a time

I I think you're making an assumption that is not warranted in any of the verses that you've cited

You say or you imply that a person is unable to believe by being reproved By being urged by being commanded

And that's not what the scriptures teaching. Oh, I just remembered for knowledge. Let me let me address that really fast If you do a study on the word no

K &O W when the Greek is Gnosko you'll find that God only knows believers If you go to Romans 829 for example those whom you foreknow he also predestined

That's prognosco the ones who are foreknown are also the ones predestined We see the pattern in Scripture where God says he only knows those who are his that's the pattern that God has set up When people are elected by the foreknowledge of God, it's concomitant or it is somewhat similar to this issue of Romans 829 and 30

Where God only knows those who are his he knows him because he's called them to himself as X 1348 says we'll get to that So for knowledge does not mean

Looking down the quarters of time or knowing ahead of time because if he does not look down the quarters of time

There is no foreknowledge to be had She God knows all things Instantaneously and eternally there is no foreknowledge in that sense

He can't foreknow ahead of time because with God there is no time There is no looking down the corridor looking beyond or looking with any or anything

It's just simply all knowledge is eternally consistent and instantaneous with God from all time foreknowledge doesn't mean

That he looked in any way shape or form to see what the free will choices of people would be as I said before that Make him contingent

It would violate that issue if you do a study on the word. No, okay. No W as it relates to Salvation you'll see he only knows

Believers and those who knew for knew he also predestined the four known ones are the predestined ones are the same group

So back to this question Can you show me any scripture Can you show me any scripture?

I'll paste this in Sorry about that. Can you show me any scripture?

That says that when a person is reproved by God that he is enabled to believe Now don't just assume that's the case show it to you from Scripture without reading into the text go ahead

First of all, there were a number of fallacies Matt that I need to address Before I answer your question. You went to first first of all,

I fear the Lord is a choice Proverbs 129 To the unrepentant sinner for they hate and knowledge and it doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the

Lord It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord is a big difference in words here The fear of the Lord is clearly a choice

God says turn you with my reproof the fear of the Lord is a choice. Okay, that's clear Okay.

Now, let me go to first first Peter one night first Peter 116 God says to be holy is

I am holy We can be holy as God is holy Do you know how?

Christ imputed righteousness When God sees us as Christians He sees

Christ's righteousness in us He sees Christ's holiness in us

That's how we can be holy is God is holy. That's the only way imputed righteousness

Okay. Now, how does God give put the fear of the Lord in their heart? He teaches the fear of the

Lord Psalm 34 11 says this regarding the fear of the Lord the fear of the

Lord is taught and A person can refuse to be taught

Okay, that's another thing. I wanted to address that also 2nd

Timothy 2 25 teaches that God grants Repentance I Think it's in 2nd

Timothy 2 25. Let me post the verse. I think he quoted from the ESV, which is fine

We 2nd Timothy chapter 2 not Matt. That's not to everybody

God's granting them repent God's granting a person to repent to a person who he has turned over to a

Reprobate mind. These are people who are teaching falsely who have turned away from false

He turned away from the truth and are teaching falsely and have gone into heresy God grants them repentance if these people realize what they've been doing he grant but God doesn't grant everyone repentance

God commands repentance a person who decides to choose and turn to follow other religions after being shown the truth

God God turns over to a reprobate mind if that person realizes. Oh my goodness.

What have I done? God's granting those people repentance. God doesn't grant everyone repentance

God commands all to repent and the only way you could repent is through God's reproving work

He says turn you at my reproof They choose to fear the Lord if they choose to fear the

Lord They're going to turn in his reproof turning at his reproof means to repent

Turning at God's reproof means to repent Ezekiel 33 11 says this

Say unto them as I live sayeth the Lord I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live

Turning from his way means to repent turn ye turn ye from your own evil ways.

That's repentance Okay, turning from a person's wicked ways is repentance

Okay, God commands that and God enables that through his reproving work

Okay, now I got to go what was your previous question Matt because you've made a lot of Fallacies and I forgot what your last question was.

Can you come up to the mic and repeat it? You're up Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also

Enabled to believe you see what you're doing is begging the question You're assuming that when someone's reproved they're enabled to believe and I'm glad that you agree with me the good reformed theology of first Peter 1 16 that God Commands what people cannot do we cannot be holy

God imputes it to us Exactly, correct He also grants we believe 2nd

Timothy 2 25 to me grants. We believe flippers 129 grants We have repentance 2nd

Timothy 2 25, etc So good reformed theology coming along.

I appreciate that. That's the question Can you show me any scripture that says that when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe go ahead

Matt first of all, I haven't agreed with you once so to say that I'm like Coming along nicely to me is like it's an insult to my intelligence

I don't think I've agreed with you once in this whole thing. So let me put this up front. I Be holy as I am holy

The only way you could be as holy as holy is imputed righteousness. That's number one number two 2nd

Timothy 2 25 God grants repentance to those who have God turned over to a reprobate mind 2nd

Timothy chapter 2 is about false teachers those who have gone into heresy God's not granting repentance to every single human being and enabling all to repent like you're claiming

So Matt, you've been off you've been off Off kilter for the last half an hour and for you to say that I'm coming along nicely

And I'm agreeing with reformed theology I think everybody in this room is intelligent enough to realize that that certainly is not the case now

Can you show me any scripture that says when a person is reproved by God that he is also enabled to believe?

Yeah right here That's chapter 13 verse 26 men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and Whosoever among you that feareth

God to you is the word of this salvation sent Through the gospel message is sent strictly to the

God -fearer Why because Acts chapter 10 verse 34 and 35 says this?

Peter said of a truth I believe that God is no respect to a person's but in Every nation he that fear of him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.

God accepts the God -fearer and Peter and Paul is saying that the gospel message is sent only to the

God -fearer Why because only the God -fearer? Will accept it

Jesus said in Mark 1 15 this repent and believe the gospel

Mark 1 15 Repent and believe the gospel. So what happens first?

repentance first Then comes the belief That's the order repent

Then believe so you ask me Can I show you a verse which teaches that a person upon fearing

God or repenting could believe? Right there Jesus's words in Mark 1 15

Matt. You're up. Oh, by the way for knowledge Look it up for knowledge means to know beforehand

That's what for knowledge means to know beforehand Matt you're up Well, Lou, I'd recommend that you do a

Bible study on the term for knowledge and how God uses it along with the word No, KNOW, Gnosko in the

Greek and you'll see that he only foreknows the believers in that sense in that context

But check it out. You should do that. You've not shown me what I've asked You've begged the question

You see Proverbs 129. They did not choose. Of course, they did not choose

When you say did not did not choose so therefore it's a choice Doesn't mean that they had this inherent ability to be able to choose

It just says they did not choose. We know why they did not choose

Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked Jeremiah 17 9. He's full of evil mark 7 21 to 23

He loves darkness rather than light and does evil John 3 19

He does not seek for God nor does any good Romans 3 10 11 12 is ungodly Romans 5 6 is deadness sins

Ephesians 2 1 by nature a child of wrath Ephesians 2 3 He cannot accept or understand spiritual.

Thanks first Corinthians 2 14 and just slave of sin Romans 6 16 to 20 That's why they didn't choose

For you to say Romans, excuse me Proverbs 129 means That they had the ability to choose

Simply because they're told that to be reproved to turn whatever it is

Doesn't mean that they have the inerrant ability, especially when we see scriptures that speak to the contrary

You see if you're going to rest everything on a single verse, and I know you don't just do that kind of a thing

But you do tend to take one verse and put it above basically all other verses and That's a problem

Because when we look at what the scriptures tell us about the unbeliever we discover

That the unbeliever is just as I pasted right there He's deceitful and wicked full of evil and etc

So you see now you said that I've made a lot of fallacies a lot of logical errors

Well, I'm saying you're making a lot of them. The problem here right now is That I can start listing out all the ones you did and then we have a counter to counter and we're not going to get anywhere

So what I'm gonna do is focus on a few things because we have to do that in order to get through some of the more

Difficult questions because there are a lot of questions. I've got for you and now we're just not gonna be long enough but In light of what

I'm saying here and a lot of what the scripture says You must not Mistakenly assume that they did not choose the fear of the

Lord because they have the free will ability to do so once enlightened or once called

Because the unbeliever is deceitful and wicked just as I've said We know from Jeremiah 32 40 that God gives it to them.

He puts it in their heart Why did they not choose the fear of the Lord because God had not put it in their heart to fear him

That's what the scriptures teach that God puts it in the heart of people to fear him Jeremiah 32 40

That's what he says So when I asked a question or you asked a question or anybody does in the text

Why is it they did not choose the fear of the Lord because God hadn't given them that? Just as he hadn't given the people repentance in second

Timothy 225 the false teachers. Let's go with that false teachers. You're right He's got to give it to them.

Why because it's not in their free will to do that Because they are by nature children of wrath and all

Unbelievers according to Scripture are false teachers all unbelievers work against God all unbelievers or believers are slaves of sin

Romans 6 14 to 20 all Unbelievers cannot receive the things of God for their foolishness to them first Corinthians 2 14 all unbelievers fit in that category

God has to grant it to them. God has to do that now So, let's see.

We can get a slight change of direction I'm gonna ask you a question about Philippians 129

This is where it says that God grants That people believe Now on the

King James is the word given For to you it has been Granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake

King James says Given that's a Greek word care It's a mine It is used in the following verses.

You can check them out later So if it is true that God enables people to believe when they're approved or when they're enlightened or it's just their choice then why is it that God has to grant that they believe if The believing that they're going to accomplish is by their own free will

Why does God have to grant it to them if it's really up to them? Go ahead Matt I think

I I think I addressed before that God places the fear of the Lord in a person's heart by teaching it.

I Think I said that before And and once again Matt Proverbs 129

I need to repeat. I need to repeat these things and I don't know if you're listening to what I'm saying

Proverbs 129 says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of Lord I mean we didn't read the verse carefully.

It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord here. What is the choice? they could have chosen but they didn't turn you with my reproof a

Person you see you're making you're putting words in my mouth and then you're refuting what

I'm saying Okay, you're saying that I'm claiming that man has the inherent ability to choose to fear

God No, I'm not saying that at all Matt man doesn't have the inherent ability to fear

God at all Man needs to be reproved by God in order to have that ability to fear

God Okay, reproof comes first turn you at my reproof so you

Matt I don't know if you're paying attention to what I'm saying and Then you're coming up to the mic and you're putting words in my mouth and you're saying that I'm saying silly things

But I'm not I don't know if you're listening Man doesn't have the inherent ability to do anything without God doing something first God reproves

Man turns at God's reproof man can't turn at God's reproof unless he's being reproved

So Matt you want to go back on that? Okay, second Timothy 225 is not for all people

God doesn't grant repentance for everyone. The granting of repentance is only to those who are

God gave over to a reprobate mind Who have seen the truth turn from it and now

God's if they realize what they've done God grants those Repentance, but God doesn't grant repentance to anyone

God commands all men everywhere to repent once a person hears the gospel message.

They're enabled to turn at God's reproof And once again, I give you

Ezekiel 33 11 Okay, well this is what God said regarding Israel in Ezekiel 33 11 as I live sayeth the

Lord I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked But that the wicked turn from his way and live turning from his way is to repent

Turn eternity from your own evil ways. That's repentance But why will you die O house of Israel so a wicked man can't turn unless he's being reproved

God reproves man turns at God's reproof you went to Jeremiah 17 9

You're isolating verses Matt Jeremiah 17 9 the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it, but you need to read the next verse

You need to read the next verse. What does the next verse say? This is what the next verse is. I the

Lord search the heart I try the rains even to give every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings

So you need to read Jeremiah 17 9 in light of Jeremiah 17 10 and vice versa

And you're not doing that you're isolating verses So I need to go back on that you asked me before and then and then you and then you're rattling off verses

Let's do one at a time So what first do you want to tackle Matt one at a time?

Don't give me Romans 8 22 Galatians 3 18 Philippians 2 9 like I'm overwhelmed over here

Let's do that ask me specific hard questions, and you're not doing that you're overloading the room with issues

Then you're putting words in my mouth, and then you're refuting things that I didn't say So let's do one verse at a time at what verse would you like for me to address first one at a time?

You're up Philippians 129 Let's look at Philippians 129 Okay, Philippians 129

Okay For unto you is given in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

Is that believing on the gospel Matt or is that just believing on the works that God is that God is doing in their life?

Is it believing the gospel? What's the context of Philippians 1 is it believing just to believe the gospel?

You know to believe in to what about Jesus the gospel Or is it to believe in the works that Christ will do through them when they go out in their ministry?

What kind of belief are we talking about? Yeah to believe is to believe in Jesus in him yeah in what way

I Believe in Jesus too, and I'm a believer already Do we believe do we

Christians believe in Jesus? I but no no why what does it say salvific Matt?

What does it say salvific in Philippians chapter 1 I? Believe in Jesus as I'm already a believer, but I believe in Jesus.

I believe that he's going to Maybe heal somebody or I believe that he's gonna work in me and make me a better person

I believe in the work that he's gonna do in me To help me walk in his way and to work.

I believe in Jesus in a lot of ways But what does it say in Philippians chapter 1 is believing in the gospel

Let's take a look at the context of Philippians 1 don't isolate verses Matt, and that's what

I think you're doing you're up He said

God doesn't take delight in the death of the wicked. That's true Ezekiel 3 3 11 for you and for others you might want to research it first Samuel 2 25

God desires to pay people to death and the word in Hebrew is the same word for Taking the pleasure in X's 33 11 to delight and take pleasure in so he does do that, but that's another theological discussion

We can get into which reformed theology does answer very well I'm glad you agree with the reformed doctrine of total property that a wicked man cannot turn

When he's reproved just by the simple act of let me put it this way. I don't know put words in your mouth I'm not honestly try not to do that I'm glad that you agree with the reformed doctrine of total depravity that person is not enabled of himself and in Himself to be able to simply choose

God You would have to assert that it was necessary is a reproving work of God upon the person that somehow enables them and Of course when you go to I think it was

Jeremiah 24 11 that God teaches them These are the people who are already believers.

They're already those who follow God there Israelites Jeremiah 32 40 God says that he gives the fear of the

Lord to them We know that God says he does it.

I'm going to conclude that God is the one who does it That's what I'm gonna Conclude excuse me

Now Philippians 129 I'm gonna draw some things and trust me

I could tackle so many things what you just said But we're not going to get anywhere. So just for the sake of brevity.

We're gonna go into Philippians 1 I hope you're not saying that the people there who are granted the act of believing in Jesus in Christ are not unbelievers

Because a text says for to you has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in him I'm hoping you're not going to say that that's

Unbelievers that have been granted To believe in Jesus and to suffer for his sake to suffer for his sake we're talking about believers those who are

Christians Those who are suffering with the Lord for the Lord because of the

Lord Whatever it is and Philippians 1 6 I'm confident this very thing that he who began a good work in you will perfect it to the day of Christ Jesus So he's talking to the believers there and of course the believers

Unfortunately are having to suffer for Christ's sake and he wants to go and see the Philippians he wants to to go there and You know, he says in verse 27 only conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

He's talking undoubtedly to believers now Let me paste this in again

And it's just focused on Philippians 129 here the last sentence there if it's true that God enables people to believe by reproving them

Then why does God have to grant? That they believe in him Go ahead.

What does it say that God's God's enabling them to believe? God's enabling them to believe through because a person chooses to repent

It's all dependent on a person's choosing to repent but it's all dependent on a person's choosing to repent

It's dependent on something repent and believe Okay, that's the order right

Matt mark 115 repent and believe a person isn't going to believe unless they repent first Okay, they need to repent first then they believe once they repent they can believe they can't believe without repenting first okay, so a person's

Ability or grieving granting them to believe is based on repent whether they choose to repent or not

Whether they choose to turn at God's reproof whether they choose to fear the

Lord Once again, Psalm 25 12 12 and 14 says this 5 12 to 14

What man is he that feareth the Lord keeping in mind that the fear of the Lord is a choice and the fear of the

Lord is to hate evil and pride and arrogance II him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose

God's teaching them what they shall choose The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant

Then they believe God's granting them to believe once again in Acts 13 26

It says this men and brethren Children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you fear of God She was this word of their salvation sent and the word of salvation is the gospel

God's granting them to believe based on their freewill decision to choose at God's reproof and to fear the

Lord on That you're up. Sorry about that.

You're not answering the question Now I'm going to tackle mark 115.

So you're saying the order is that they first have to repent in order to believe So person repents before he believes the gospel

So if you want to say that mark 115 is an order of salutist doctrinal statement on the order of regeneration preceding faith when this or that Well, you know get the repents which

God grants people But they can't do that because they're slaves of sin and haters of God and do no good But yet they can repent and then they believe the gospel because of the repentance.

It doesn't make any sense Back to Philippians 129

If it is true that God enables people to believe if it is true that God enables people to believe when they're reproved

Then why does God have to grant that they believe they're not answering the question You go to other verses, which

I've already addressed Psalm 25 Proverbs 125 129 and you say it's a choice

Yeah, they chose They absolutely Said in Proverbs 129.

Let me go to that quickly. Hold on one sec So I'm gonna make sure

I read it properly Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the

Lord. That's what the Proverbs 129 says You're right. They did not choose the fear of the

Lord. I already addressed that the reason they did not choose the fear of the Lord is because They're slaves of sin

Haters of God don't do any good Etc. Why I paste this in The Answer is found in Scripture Exegesis not eisegesis.

Why because the believer is deceitful and wicked full of evil love Darkness rather than light and does evil does not seek for God as ungodly child of wrath, etc.

His slave of sin That's why they didn't choose the fear of the Lord the fact is that God didn't put the fear of Him in them as he said he does in Jeremiah 32 40

That's what he says he does This is reformed theology right here That God is a sovereign

Lord. I Got a question for you Let me see it and write this out.

What is in one person's Free will That enables him to choose.

Hold on. I Need my speech program. Hold on my hands hurt too much from typing What is in a person's free will that would allow him to choose?

Where it does not allow another person to choose when both Have their free will created by them

For them, excuse me by God Well, Matt, first of all, you said that Malachi Mark 1 15 is ridiculous

Time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand repent ye and believe the gospel And you said well, it's ridiculous that a person repents and then believes

Oh, you said it was ridiculous, it doesn't make any sense that a person repents and then believes

So I would imagine that when John the Baptist says repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

He was being silly What did John the Baptist say repent?

But the kingdom of heaven is at hand before Jesus is ministry repent Okay, so you repent first and then

Jesus said in Mark 1 15 repent and believe the gospel So it's really not ridiculous.

The point that was making was really quite biblical and once again Jeremiah 32 40

I think you're repeating this and I'm giving you the same answer that I gave you before Jeremiah 32 40 God God places the fear of the

Lord in their hearts and how does he do that? Psalm 34 11 he teaches them the fear of the

Lord Okay, and as we know a person can refuse to be taught Okay, but how he places it in their heart is he teaches them and if they want to be taught

They'll be taught if they don't want to be taught. They won't be taught. It's a choice And once again, you keep on going back to Proverbs 129.

I recommend that everybody in the room read this carefully It says that they did not choose the fear of the

Lord It doesn't say they could not choose the fear of the Lord very very careful when you read this verse

They hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord but God says turn you with my reproof because I have called and he

Refused the word refused there and it basically Assumes the word refused assumes ability

Okay, I I refuse to walk I could walk but I refuse to walk a person with no legs doesn't refuse to walk

He can't walk. Okay, so read these verses carefully They refuse which means they could have

Yielded and turned to God's reproof, but they chose not to so I recommend that everybody read these words okay, so Matt you asked a question before and because I had to go back and redo and Reword all your answers.

You said that I gave which I didn't do You said what is a person's free will that would allow him to choose where another does not choose?

simple the conscience Everybody has a conscience. I have a conscience you have a conscience

Love is Plato has a conscience What hell has a conscience God has instilled in every single one of us a conscience and the free will?

to choose to do good or choose to do that, which is evil and the only way a person could turn to God's reproof is to basically be

Convicted by the Holy Spirit and reproved by the Holy Spirit where that person chooses based on his conscience to yield to God's reproof and repent and believe the gospel or Embraces sin and choose to live a sinful lifestyle is based on his free will decisions to do that What enables a person to do that his conscience whatever

God gives him the liberty to do one way or the other? Okay, if a person

If a person hold on one second, let me go to John chapter 3 because I think you went to verse 19

Let me go to verse 20 for everyone that do with evil hated the light Neither come unto the light lest as these should be with reproved

But he that do with good come unto the light that as these may be manifested that they are wrought in God So God's given everybody the ability to make their own free will decisions through the reproving work of the

Holy Spirit And Matt the mic is yours you're up. Well, the fact that you're not able to answer the question demonstrates that your theological position is insufficient

There's so many things worth addressing And the time constraints and I don't want to get off topic too many times

I've addressed the Jeremiah verses and you say that he teaches them The fear of the

Lord that's how he gives it to them. That's not what the text says. I've asked specifically about 3240 and I could do the same thing that you do.

How does he teach him by giving it to them? He could teach him the fear of the Lord, but those people are all ready believers

So you teach them all that they already have he grants to them and he gives them The the issue and the ability to be able to have have fear of him.

That's what the Bible clearly tells us And of course they refused Don't make the logical mistake.

It's a mistake in logic Choose this day whom you're going to serve that means that they automatically have the ability to make that choice

Well, someone could make that claim, but is it logically necessary? Just as it says they did not choose the fear of the

Lord and not choose the way of the Lord. That's fine When we say that they did not or when the scriptures say that you cannot logically say it

Necessitates that they have the ability to be able to choose to be able to do that in order for it to be a true statement That's not not to me.

It's not logically necessary Because I've shown you from scriptures where man is

And I've pasted it in before where man is a slave of sin a hater of God does no good cannot receive spiritual things

So when we have the New Testament light shining on that proverb which is a wisdom statement not a doctrinal statement about the nature of man, but a

Wisdom statement we have the the doctrinal statements of the New Testament about man's nature

And we put it upon the Old Testament we understand Oh now I know why they did not choose is because they were not able to and God had not according to Philippians 129 granted that they believe

He hadn't granted that they believe now You said

That the reason they did not Choose I asked you about free will

Why does one person's free will enable a person to choose another one does not and your answer was because they have conscience

Well, that's not answering the question Because all I got to do is say why does one person's conscience bring a person to?

Choose God another one does not when God makes the consciences. I Began this questioning of you

I I said do you agree or deny that God makes the will the mind the body and I'm just gonna search words conscience in there because that's part of the will and Puts people in a designated place time and culture with particular parents and that God also knows exactly what the free will choice

According to conscience will be of any and all people whom he is thus made and placed in those circumstances since he's arranged it all

So I'm gonna paste this original statement in and you just put the word conscience in I'm not gonna write it in right now and waste time

The will is part as can be the conscience as part of the mind and the will So but if you agree, then how is

God not predestined and he said they do predict God does predestined But then you said by his foreknowledge of what they're gonna do, but that it's a circle

You see God according to your system here God makes their will makes their conscience puts it in them in all the

Circumstances and then he chooses them based on a free will choice. They're gonna make but wait a minute God arranged it for them to make that choice

You can't say he did not You cannot say that God is not in sovereign control of all situations and all circumstances about everything

He is he knows exactly what the outcome will be of all of the circumstances and all the variables that he put in place and he can bring a person's decision to another point a

Different decision based on whatever God desires to put into place in that person's life and In that person's creation that will result in something different God undoubtedly has that ability to do that and he does so and Since he does so because he works all things after the counsel of his will

Ephesians 111 says And he puts the mind the body the soul the will together

For you to say that he then looks in the future to see Excuse me, that I retract that that he looks in the future.

I know you don't Didn't say that that you say that he foreknows. We'll just leave it at that what decisions are gonna make and that's how he saves them

You got a logical problem. You're saying he knows ahead of time what decisions he's gonna make

Based on what he's arranged That they would do By all the circumstances the conscience the will that he's created

So you see what you're doing is arguing in a circle chasing your own tail Your position cannot answer the question.

Why does the conscience choose another conscious does not? In my perspective from my reformed theology, which

I base in Scripture. I know why Because God grants that people believe with things 129 he grants and repentance 2nd

Timothy 225 Our believing is the work of God John 6 28 29. We're born again

Not of our own wills John 113. I know that God is a sovereign.

He doesn't look around to see what's going to happen He doesn't have a foreknowledge about what people gonna do in a particular situation

And then he chooses them based on their choice, which makes

God contingent. That's not how it works I've asked you the question and what you've done is you've gone back in circles

You say the reason one will chooses is because of the conscience then quite the question

Why does one person's conscience choose and another does not can you answer that question? Why does one person's conscience choose to fear

God and another does not? Go ahead Matt I got to ask you a question.

I Mean you've been asking me a lot of questions. I got to ask you a question Can you put the word refuse in a sentence where a person refusing isn't able?

Because you're saying it says because I have called and you refused and you're saying well

They could not choose the fear of the Lord. So I'm going to ask you Can you put the word refuse in a logical sentence?

Where the person refusing isn't able? Because I think these two verses are teaching that a person is able

So I'm going to ask you to do that for the room Because there's 88 people in this room 86 besides you and I and you're saying that Refusing they did not choose the fear of the

Lord because they could not yet It says that they refuse so I'm going to ask you to put the word refuse in a logical sentence

Where the person refusing isn't able? So we can continue because I really don't think you're following a very clear point that I'm making here

I'm at can you come up to the mic and answer that very simple question for me? You're up Well, I don't think at the moment

That I can put the word refuse in a logical sentence as you've requested

Where person refusing isn't able? But I'm sure I can come up with I don't believe

I could but right here when I'm taking notes while you're speaking I Don't know if I can do that at the moment.

I have to think about it for a little while before I can put what you call a logical sentence a

Logical sentence. I'm not sure what you mean by that because we have syllogisms We have logical inferences but a logical sentence

I think I know what you mean. So give me some time and I'll work on one and see if I come up with something like that and then

I'll get it to you later because at the moment I Don't think I can devote enough silent mental energy for a minute or two or three or four to come up with something

But even if I could or excuse me, even if I could not It does not negate the truth of what

I'm telling you out of God's Word you see You are making the assumption

You are making the assumption that because God says to someone choose or because God Or because someone doesn't turn at his reproof that it automatically means they have the ability to do that I have already addressed this more than once the principle is true that God does require

That people do what they cannot naturally do Matthew 548 for example be perfect for I am perfect and nobody can do that I'm sorry

But notice that God gives the standard of perfection, which is himself be perfect because I'm perfect How about?

first Peter 116 be holy because I'm holy He gives the command to be holy.

He gives the command to be perfect and he gives it to the sinners Who are not holy the and to the imperfect who cannot achieve perfection because by nature they are imperfect

You see we in reformed circles would say that God is a standard of righteousness He's the one who requires perfection because he's perfect, but it doesn't mean we're automatically able to do it

This is why I'm glad you said this earlier in reference to first Peter 116 That God Grants them that holiness or imputes it.

I think is the word you used That he I'm answering a question that he

Gives them what they cannot do on their own. I'm making that case from Scripture and Showing you that that's the case

So when you go to Philippians 129 and you want to say that when God says that they did not turn at his reproof

Means that they have to be able to do that I've now shown you that that's not logically necessary and I've got scriptures to counter your argument

Which you've not refuted so Let's get back to Philippians one.

Well, I could do it another question. Tell you what? One incidentally,

I didn't say mark 115 was stupid. I know you kind of misspoke on that one. That's not what I'm saying Um About this because remember you said you were going to answer difficult questions

So let me ask you this question John 1 12 and 13, but as many as Received him to them.

He gave power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name Which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God, okay

Verse 12 is speaking of salvation of receiving Christ That's receiving

Christ is what it means verse 13 says that we are born and make sense to say born again how does this verse fit into your idea that God enables people to believe in him by reproving them and It's such etc.

Can you answer that? Go ahead? Matt you've been asking me the tough questions for the last hour and 15 minutes and I asked you a simple one

The simple question Matt It really was a simple question and you said you have to ponder it and really think it over and there's eight

There's 91 people in this room and I ask you a simple question. I took you to Proverbs 1 23 and Proverbs 129 and I asked

I thought I said to you Matt they refused To choose the fear of the

Lord and I asked you to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able

It should be easy for you That should be the easier. I mean

Matthew even us to continue This is showing ability they refused

They could have in other words Matt. I'm sitting in my chair right now. I Refuse to stand up.

That means I can stand up I'm able to stand up, but I'm refusing to stand up if I have no legs.

I Can't refuse to stand up. I'm unable to stand up so the fact of the matter is if because I have called and you refused because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear

Of the Lord first of all the word choice implies ability the word refuse implies ability

So I want the 90 people in this room to know that I I asked Matt a simple question

And he's unable to put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able if God's enabling the person to choose the fear of the

Lord. What comes next? Psalm 25 12 and 14 What man is he that feareth the

Lord him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose?

There you go They could choose the secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will show them his covenant and Matt you made one other fallacy major phallus major fallacies here not

Matt mark 115 Jesus says repent and believe the gospel and then you come up and say repent first and then believe the gospel.

That's silly That's really good. That doesn't make any sense. That's silly. So it was silly and You're not addressing these things.

You're not saying gee golly Lou. I Made a mistake So when John the

Baptist said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand in Matthew 3 2 Maybe he was wrong

He's commanding the Jews to repent For the before Jesus's ministry the

Savior was coming the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world repent first then believe

Say you're saying how Reformed theology is biblical Matt. You made two is enabled

You're unable to do that and then you said repentance before believing is silly Well, it's not silly because John the

Baptist commands to repent and then Jesus says repent and believe So clearly it's biblical.

It's really not silly. And then you're going to we went to Philippians 129 with God grants

With God's grant granting believing he's granting believing based on a person's choosing to repent

Then he grants that they believe so the granting of believing is all based on a person's choosing to repent

And I'm answering your questions, but Matt you're not answering my simple questions So once again,

I'm going to repeat because we got 5 -10 minutes left in here and I really have enjoyed this conversation

And I want to invite everybody to Matt Slick's room because Matt's going to open up a room in a little while Okay, and go over all the answers that I didn't give but in the meantime

Matt for the room for your room's sake Can you really think hard?

Can you put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able think on that that's a major issue man because if a person is

Refusing Clearly they're able Okay, and that's your burden not mine

So Matt, I'm going to give you the mic and I'm going to give you the opportunity to ask me one more tough question

I've enjoyed this and I hope we can do it again All right But think of a good sentence to show your crowd in your room of a good sentence with a person refusing isn't able

I really want to find out what that sentence is and type it for me and send it to me in p .m

Because I'm really interested. I haven't heard one Calvinist come up with a sentence like that Where a person refusing isn't able a logical sentence

So Matt you're up. I'll give you one more shot at it You're up and I've enjoyed this by the way And I know that I'm passionate about what

I believe and you're passionate about what I what you believe Okay, but for all the hard questions you've asked me in the last hour and 15 minutes

I've asked you one simple question and you're still thinking of a good answer

Where I could put the word refuse in a sentence where the person refusing isn't able because Matt if you can't do it

Then maybe you can't do it. And if you can't do it Maybe the entire tulip falls apart and withers something to think about Matt.

You're up Wow Let me ask you am

I not allowed to ponder how to answer the question and get back to you later on it I already told you

That such a question that requires logic would require that I Bit of do a bit of contemplation and a logical examination about Developing a structure structured sentence when

I was debating Dan Barker an atheist. I Knew a certain Argument that he would raise it took me about a day to come up with a specific question and statement

To deal with something. I knew he would raise I'd hope you give me the same grace to be able to allow me to do the same thing because I think your questions an interesting one and I want to I want to explore different avenues of thoughts in order to get to to that and see if it's possible and If I can come up with something then great, but you've got to be careful if you assert that such a statement is necessary and as you

I think really overshot the logical requirement to say that If I can't do that about finding a sentence with the word refuse means that you're not able to do it

Then tulip falls apart Well, then if I do come up with something then it would be evidence that tulip is true according to your logic

But you see I don't believe either statement is logically necessary. I don't believe it

Even if I did come up with a statement that you're asking I want you to type it out exactly as you want me to respond to it

Okay, if you can type it out and I'll copy it now, I'll actually honestly try and get to it later on but even if I do come up with something and you say yeah there it is it still doesn't mean that the tulip is true based on something like that and The corollary would be the case.

It does not mean tulip is not true based on whether or not I'm not able to do that So whether I am or I'm not able to is yet to be determined Now as far as mark 115 goes

I did already address that I hope you're not saying that someone's going to repent without first believing that they need to turn from their sins

This is not a statement on what we call in theology the ordo salutas sure we should repent and he's saying repent to all of those the believers in God To the

Jews in the context as John the Baptist was Rick It wasn't even defined until first kind of 15 1 through 4

So you see their problems with your assertion around that text not that it's not a great text

And I do quote that and I do tell people they do need to repent and they need to believe the gospel They need to vote to do both of them

But if they repent it's because God grants it to them second Timothy 2 25 and if they believe it's because God grants that they believe

Philippians 1 29 Because Our believing is the work of God John 6 28 29 and we're born again not of our own will

John 1 13 I've got all these scriptures that back up the position that I'm giving now

I Do appreciate that you've been willing to be cross -examined and yeah, I think it takes some guts on your part

I Will try I thought you know I'm hoping you were going to type out the exact question with the word refused in there

I think that that's important that you do that because I don't want to misrepresent Your exact question when

I Tackle it later on to come up with a solution or an answer. I think it's a valid question

Actually, I'm kind of curious know if I can do it But I don't think I can do it right now because of the circumstances because it would require me to do just some serious thinking because when you say

Logical that's the thing that makes it difficult and it makes it challenging and actually makes entertaining in a good way

I want to actually try and tackle that because I like that kind of stuff It's kind of something the atheist would say not you're not an atheist, but I like those kind of intellectual challenges

So, please be patient with me. I'm not able to do that right now And I think that's that's a fair assessment and quality of that now.

Let me ask you You said initially an hour and I suspect you've got to get going maybe you got to go to work tomorrow

I certainly don't have to get up at in particular time I'm willing to go a little bit further if you want or if you want to call it quits now, that's fine

I won't say you're running. I'm not gonna say you're chicken because I don't believe that but you know if it's just Now's a good time to to Close it.

That's fine with me But if you want to continue I can ask you more stuff. So it's up to you. Okay, go ahead

Well, let me just say this Matt. I Like I said, I get an hour. It's been an hour and 20 minutes 20 and I do have to work tomorrow

Okay, and I am up at 6 o 'clock in the morning and probably gonna be wound up from this discussion And it's gonna probably be to 1 o 'clock in the morning before I finally fall asleep.

So so we'll do this again I promise you I'll give you the opportunity course examine me once in a while I'll ask you a question too, and I really

I tell you something and to everybody in this room Matt slick is a

Christian. Okay, we just disagree Emphatically on soteriology, okay

So, please, you know I zap Matt in chat text and in private chat and we go back and forth and I despise

Calvinism and Matt embraces Calvinism. So we have a difference of opinion Okay, so but I'm no no way saying that Matt's not saved or anything like that We just have a difference of opinion on a very serious topic a very serious topic

Calvinism I think Calvinism is a very serious topic. So I'm glad we're doing this I want

Matt to be treated with respect in my rooms. That's why I read dotted everybody Okay, and I hope that I'm treated with respect in Matt's room or Matt my question to you and we'll do this again

I'll get ahold of you maybe next week or something like that Maybe after the new year and we'll do this again, and I don't mind being put through the grinder

I really don't I think hope everybody in this room has learned something but Matt the question I have for you

First of all are the two things I wanted I would like this room to ponder Okay, Jesus says repent and believe the gospel

Okay, a man slit Matt says repentance being before believing is ridiculous and all that and I don't think it is

Because John the Baptist did say repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand Repent and believe whether it's an order salute us or not.

I think repent and believe Repentance comes first then believing also men and brethren children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth

God That's repentance people who fear God repent to you with this word of salvation sent.

I think that also implies Repentance before believing because the gospel message is sent to all those who fear

God and if they fear God they repented already So I think between that prop mark 115 and Matthew 3 2 shows repenting before believing

But Matt my question to you is this can you show can you use the word? refuse in a sentence

Where the person refusing isn't able for example the man with no legs refused to walk

It's not a logical sentence because a man with no legs is it cannot possibly walk a man who's lazy

Refused to walk or refused to run. Well, that would make sense because a man who's lazy

With Kent is able to run. He just doesn't want to do it. So that would make sense You see what

I'm trying to say use the word refuse in a logical sentence where the person refusing isn't able

Okay, that's the that's my question. Everybody. It's not it's not a complicated question So I'm hoping that Matt, you know ponders it gives us some clear thought because man

I'm telling you something if the person in Proverbs 129 Okay can choose the fear of the

Lord based on God Reproving work turn you with my reproof the

God acts man reacts Okay, and based on a person's choosing to fear the

Lord and not refusing to fear the Lord God shows the Covenant So the whole path to salvation is laid out if that person

Refusing is able so I think that's important. I think that's important Can you use the word refuse in a logical sentence where a person refusing isn't able?

Isn't able to do what he's refuses to do Yes, that's my question to match slick and I don't think this is a lot of there's a major issue here

Okay, so god bless you all man. I enjoyed this and once again, I hope we do this again

Maybe after the first of the year, okay, and you guys take it easy. God bless I got to close the room and we'll do this again some other time.