We The Pauline Epistles (Week 2)

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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October 16, 2020

Sovereign Grace Acacemy NT100 Survey of the New Testament Lecture 6 - The Pauline Epistles (Part 2)

00:00: Well, good evening everyone boy, what a So small class, but that's alright because tonight is the night of nights I've been looking forward to tonight since I started this class.
00:12: We are in the second part of the Pauline epistles and I Say I've been looking forward to this part because we're actually going to have some in-class discussion tonight we're going to have some in-class discussion tonight, which is Hopefully going to inspire at least a little debate even if we all have the same opinion Which it's likely we will have the same opinion on a couple of these topics.
00:40: I still want us to interact with things that we have heard Objections and debates and things like that.
00:48: So you'll know what I'm talking about when we get there You'll know what I'm talking about when we get there.
00:52: So in our last lesson we began to examine the works of Paul We noted that Paul wrote 13 of the New Testament epistles and we have already surveyed those We are we've surveyed the first half.
01:09: We looked last week at Romans 1st and 2nd Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians General Electric Power Company if you're ever teaching that to children To try to help them remember Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians It's General Electric Power Company, and they'll always remember how to wear what order they fall in Well in this session, we're going to complete the Pauline corpus and we're going to look at the remaining books 1st and 2nd Thessalonians 1st and 2nd Timothy Titus and Philemon and I Want you to note that while 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is falling in the second half of our study 1st and 2nd Thessalonians were actually written much earlier than the books that we looked at last week.
02:01: In fact The only book that would have predated 1st and 2nd Thessalonians would have been what? Galatians if Galatians was written prior to the Jerusalem Council, which was in around 49 which would have put Galatians around 48 then 1st and 2nd Thessalonians would have been written right around 50 So early early in their in their dating So even though they fall later in the Pauline corpus as per how they are ordered in the New Testament They're actually earlier in regard to their dating So the way we're going to break tonight down is we're going to break tonight down in three parts We're going to look at early Paul That is 1st and 2nd Thessalonians We're going to look at the pastoral epistles which is 1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus and Then we're going to look at what I'm calling personal Paul and that is the one tiny book of Philemon So we're going to look at early Paul 1st and 2nd Thessalonians We're going to look at the pastoral epistles and then we're going to look at the personal letter of Paul to Philemon and With each of those we're going to do as we do every week.
03:16: We're going to look at the authorship dating and purpose of those books So let's begin with early Paul Looking at 1st and 2nd Thessalonians open up your Bibles to 1st and 2nd Thessalonians Well, you can only open up to one so open up the 1st Thessalonians We're going to look at some passages together Go ahead and open up to chapter 3 And hold your place at verse 6 Before we read let me read this like this short introduction Paul visited Thessalonica Which was a large commercial city in Macedonia? During his second missionary journey, which would have been around 48 or 49 He caused such a disturbance that he and Silas had to be sent away in a short time later Timothy Returns from Thessalonica with good news about the church there this good news prompted two letters and This is what we see in verse 6 of chapter 3 It says in verse 6 but now that Timothy has come to us from you and has brought us the good news of your faith and love and Reported that you always remember us kindly and long to see us as we long to see you for this reason brothers and all our distress and affliction We have been comforted about you through your faith so this tells us a little bit about the historical context of the book of first Thessalonians Thessalonians, excuse me.
05:16: I don't know why I stuttered there but First Thessalonians Paul tells us Timothy has come from you and he's given a good report about you Which is encouraging because as I said a moment ago Paul and Silas had to flee because of a disturbance It would have been easy for one to think that the church would have simply Begun to dissolve in the face of persecution, but what we do know about Church history is this Persecution tends to grow the church not kill the church in fact, it has been rightly said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church and So as the church experienced persecution in Thessalonica The church grew as a result and so Timothy comes and provides a Good report Now as far as the authorship is concerned First and second Thessalonians Are given almost universal acceptance as having been written by Paul even skeptics will agree with Paul on authorship both books mentioned Silas and Timothy Yet Paul is apparently the primary author and Since the books come shortly after Paul's visit we put them around 50 Having been written closely together.
06:44: Some have even suggested that second Thessalonians may have been written first But there is some internal evidence to say otherwise turn to second Thessalonians Chapter 2 and I'll show you what I mean in that regard in second Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 The Apostle Paul says this so then brothers stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us either by our spoken word or by our letter so it would seem to indicate from that that They've already received at least one letter.
07:24: And since we know that there was two letters that went to Thessalonica that would make us point to second Thessalonians as Properly the second letter, but there are some there are some other arguments to be made that maybe second Thessalonians came first I don't think it's a huge deal but I think that's enough to say this is probably the rightly been understood as the second letter and And so what's the purpose of these books? the purpose of these books is first Thessalonians It's about strengthening the faith of new converts and second Thessalonians Holds to basically the same purpose encouraging the faith of These new converts.
08:11: I want you to think about this and really kind of in your mind try to put yourself in the first century and I know that's Impossible but for a moment think of it like this This is a this is a new faith I Mean one could say it's the outgrowth of Judaism, which now is several thousand years old but Christianity as Christianity is is only a couple decades old and the church at Thessalonica is Only a couple years old at this point and it's already facing persecution.
08:44: It's already facing backlash and pushback both from the Jewish population and from the Gentile population the Jews see it as a perversion of their teachings and the Gentiles see it as remember we said the Gentiles saw the Christians as Atheists because they didn't believe in all the gods.
09:04: They saw them as possibly Sex addicts because they were having these love feasts.
09:10: They saw them as possibly Cannibalistic because they were eating body and blood, you know There were all these all these things that grew out of these ideas of what the church was and so Paul writes to this early church, and this is his early letters to Continue on don't give up don't Don't give in to the persecution.
09:34: Don't give in to The difficulties go back to first Thessalonians again If you would as I said, we're going to be looking at a little more scripture than we have in the weeks previous And I want you to go to chapter 1 of 1st Thessalonians And we're going to read beginning at verse 4 this is after Paul has given his normal introduction and Said he'd give thanks to God for them and remembering them before God now verse 4.
10:06: He says for we know brothers Loved by God that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word But also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction You know the kind you know what kind of men we prove to be among you for your sake And you became imitators of us and of the Lord for you receive the word and much affliction With the joy of the Holy Spirit so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia But your faith in God has gone forth everywhere So that we need not say anything for they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception We had among you and how you turn to God from idols to serve the living and true God and To wait for his son from heaven whom he raised from the dead Jesus Who delivers us from the wrath to come so this is an encouraging word? Don't forget what you did when I came you welcomed me you were excited you you this was a this was a good thing This was a positive thing and the other churches have been encouraged by what you have done The other churches have been have been moved by your faith and your faith has gone out as a testimony to them and so that is a word of encouragement and Paul also provides to them a word of encouragement even in the face of death And this is where I think most of us think when we think of first Thessalonians most of us think of first Thessalonians 4 So turn there quickly First Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed brothers about those who are asleep.
11:57: That's a Christian euphemism for death That you may not grieve as those who have no hope For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so through Jesus God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord that we who are alive Who are left until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep? for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command with the shout of an archangel and with the sound of the trumpet of God the dead in Christ will rise first Then we who are alive and who are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air and so we will always be with the Lord therefore encourage one another with these words What's that? It's promise for what promise Christ is returning.
12:50: This is not the end This is the this is the promise whereby he says we we can grieve but not like those who have no hope People were killed for their faith You know, we we we we watch persecution happen around us and it does and It's real But as it is right now, no one is breaking down the doors of the church To carry men out and burn them at the stake Not saying it couldn't happen not saying it won't happen in our lifetime But it was happening in certain parts of the world and it was happening in the early church and so Paul is saying I don't want you to be uninformed about those who have died, I Don't want you to be ignorant of them As those who have no hope If we believe Jesus died and rose again We also believe God will bring with him those who are asleep those who have died the great hope of the Christian life Is that this life is not all there is Paul even tells us in 1st Corinthians 15 That if in this life only we have hope in Christ.
14:18: We are most above men to be pitied Meaning that if this is all there is Then it's really not something to be celebrated and so This particular passage has been held on to by Christians Down through the centuries as the great hope that Christ will not only return but that he will raise us from the dead and He will give us New bodies and we will have new life with him now there is some Debate and interpretive challenge on this when it comes to what's called the rapture But I'm not going to go there just yet.
15:02: So if you're ready to talk about the rapture That's one of our conversations that I want to have but before we do that.
15:09: I Just want to show that 2nd Thessalonians, I think carries on the same idea I Think it addresses a fresh outbreak of persecution and if you'll turn over to 2nd Thessalonians 2 We see Paul addressing the coming of the Lord again Says in chapter 2 verse 1 now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and are being gathered together with him Which is just what he talked about in chapter 4 of 1st Thessalonians We ask you brothers not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed either by spirit or spoken word Or a letter seeming to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come See what I think happened and I think I'd Share this with several commentators on this.
16:04: I Think that there were people within the Thessalonian Church who were spreading false rumors about Christ and some who even believed that he had already returned and so it could be we've missed the rapture or it could be It's all over and therefore we have no reason to continue fighting the good fight.
16:30: Everything's done And we see this in chapter 3 look at chapter 3 verse 6 He says now we command you brothers in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that it that You receive from us Why would idleness be a problem? Well, idleness would be a problem if people believe the day of the Lord had already come if people believed everything was already finished people believed something that was incorrect particularly about the end and So we see in these early letters of Paul Paul is trying to correct a bad eschatology He's trying to correct a faulty understanding of the return of Christ and That leads me to the next part which is the the question about interpretive challenges Because would you agree with me that how someone sees the end? would affect How someone lives in the present? Would you agree with that brother Brother Tim I'm sorry that that how somebody sees the end times would affect how they live now.
17:50: Yes, and I think I think Paul is addressing that issue Because There was an idleness that was happening.
18:02: There was a problem that was happening within the church and Let's talk real quick How many of you have ever heard The pre-tribulation rapture theory of the end times Okay The pre-tribulation rapture theory basically what it says is this is it says that Prior to Jesus's return he is going to invisibly Take the church away in what's called the rapture the rapture means to to take away or to snatch away something and They based that on First Thessalonians chapter 4 the Lord himself would descend from heaven with a shout the trumpet and the archangel and The dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive will be caught together with him in the clouds and you've probably all seen or at least heard of the books left behind the which were very popular in the late 90s and The left-behind books told the story from the perspective of the pre-tribulation rapture View now when we get to our study of Revelation, which is in two weeks our last class We're actually going to look at the various views on the rapture But just for tonight since it is something that people point to first Thessalonians 4 and say this is where I get this from I Want to ask the question.
19:40: Do you think that that would have an effect? You've all said yes, that would have an effect on how someone lives But what effect what what do we see? Okay, let me give you an example Well, we have to have hope but What I often heard and I heard this in seminary because I went to a seminary that taught pre-tribulation rapture theory what I often heard was We're hoping for the rapture so that God will snatch away the church and we will avoid the persecution which is coming in the seven-year tribulation Right.
20:21: And so the goal was to avoid Persecution the goal was to be snatched away before the persecution really begins okay, and so When you look around the world Do we see the world I want to ask this question do we see the world getting better getting worse or staying the same Is it really though? But it's a time drawing there Okay, all right But when we when I say is the world getting better getting worse What if we ask the question are there more Christians now than there were 50 years ago? Absolutely ton more.
21:28: All right, there's massive amounts of Revivals happening in places like China South America Africa.
21:37: So are there more Christians now than there were 50 years ago? Yes, the population has grown so just by sheer numbers, but I'm thinking of maybe a Comparative there would still be more So, is that a better thing or a worse thing That's a better thing, right? So somebody who takes a post-millennial position would somebody like Jeff Durbin I know you're familiar with Janice and I think you John would know who that is Somebody like him would say things are actually getting better Because even though we see the persecution happening all around us there are there are places where real and genuine growth are happening and Ultimately God is going to see to it that the earth is going to be Overcome and overwhelmed with the gospel.
22:23: Isn't that the promise of the gospel that it'll be like a mustard seed that That when planted it grows into a giant tree and and the birds of the air come and nest in its branches Isn't it like a little leaven that when it goes in leavens the whole lump and that's the picture of the kingdom of God Goes in and leavens the whole lump, right? So so is it is it is is there a sense in which we have to be pessimistic? And pessimistic in the sense that it's it's real bad we say well right now we've had a bad year 2020 is a bad year I Saw something really great online the other day.
22:53: It was a it was it was a thing It said the worst year was not 2020 the worst year was like 546 when like a third of the population died and People like all these really bad things were happening and it was like this really isn't the worst year right, you know comparatively So oftentimes just like brother Tim said oftentimes.
23:15: It's a perspective thing Right.
23:17: Oftentimes it's an issue of perspective and what I always heard growing up was the world's getting worse and worse and worse and Jesus is gonna snatch us out before it gets really bad and that last seven years is going to be the really the really bad But is that really that is that really what the Bible teaches Is that really what the Bible? Commands of us one does the Bible command of us a hope to avoid persecution or a promise to avoid suffering No, and so what's that brother? Yeah, exactly exactly.
23:58: So when we when we look at Thessalonians we look at 1st and 2nd Thessalonians again, I've taken a little more time on this than maybe I intended to the people use passages in this book particularly 1st Thessalonians 4 13 through 18 To prove an entire theory about the end times that it doesn't prove In fact, I don't even think it even hints at it.
24:23: I don't see here a secret rapture.
24:25: I certainly don't see here anything about a seven-year tribulation And they said well you got to add this to Revelation and then you got to divide it by Ezekiel And then you got a times at times Jeremiah, you know, you becomes this very this this almost like Yeah, it's it's it's a string of pearls eschatology and I I honestly don't think that it it really holds together and as I said when we get to the our study of Revelation I'll explain more why I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but There are some other things in 1st Thessalonians, I want to point out if you go to 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 6 This passage is often used to prove a pre-tribulation rapture it says in verse 6 it says and you know that what is restraining him now and him there is the Let me see is the deceiver it says and you know the one you know, what is restraining him now So that he may be revealed in his time for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way and then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming and so Maybe you've heard this the argument is the Holy Spirit is currently restraining the Antichrist but one day the Holy Spirit is going to be removed and When the Holy Spirit's removed the church has to go with him because the Holy Spirit is Indwelling the church and so if the Holy Spirit is removed and the church has to be removed too And that's the that's the argument for the rapture, right? We're all going to be invisibly snatched away and the pictures from the book.
26:07: It was like your clothes would fall down It was like a you know, it was it was huh? yeah, exactly the clothes are left, but your naked body is you know, invisibly taken away and The idea is that this this lawless one who is sometimes referred to as Antichrist or Revelation 13 the Beast or Man of lawlessness, you know all of these things.
26:33: Well Well, see if you take the Pope you're taking a historicist position.
26:37: Yeah See that's not even a futurist position and we'll talk about that when we get to Revelation but the the argument that it is the Pope was actually the argument that the Reformers made and But that's like I said getting a little ahead of me No, the point of it is is when you look at these passages and you're dealing with the the question They're making a lot of assumptions The first assumption is the restrainer here is referring to the Holy Spirit.
27:05: It doesn't say that for certain They're also assuming that the risk the removing of restrainer means the Holy Spirit has taken off the earth Which is a pretty big That's a big assumption And that when the Holy Spirit is removed Based on assumption two the third assumption is the church has to go with it.
27:24: Therefore we all invisibly disappear You see there's a there's an entire framework that's built on what I would say a house of cards and A lot of it comes from first and second Thessalonians That's pre-trib yeah pre-trib rapture theory and so I Remember when I first started really doubting this and I first started Having these arguments with my professors because it was taught at our seminary if you didn't believe in pre-trib rapture you were They said we hope you get to stay because we know it's true and we hope God leaves you here I mean it was that kind of maybe not that ugly, but it was The crazy part is they believe that the Holy Spirit is going to leave and then we'll somehow still be saved.
28:11: That's right, and I had that I had that conversation with a New Testament professor at Ruby Tuesday's it was after we had a conference here, and I invited him to teach It was during the Da Vinci code thing we did a whole week on the Da Vinci code and why it was untrue and I had a New Testament professor come in and give a history of The New Testament manuscripts Afterwards we went to eat at Ruby Tuesday's we're sitting there having our salad bar And I and we were talking about it and he when he found out I didn't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture he was very surprised and I said well, I know I I gave up on that.
28:50: I don't hold that position anymore and I Said but let me ask you this.
28:56: I said do you believe people are saved? During the tribulation And he said of course I Said if the Holy Spirit is removed How are people saved? And he said oh he comes back 30 days later And I said I was 25 26 years old I was new I was green But I still was bold enough to say you just made that up.
29:26: I look I looked him right in the eyes I said you just made that up There's ain't no way that's in the Bible I said 30 days later So not only do not only have you created charts that are so precise almost down to the minute Of when the rapture is going to happen and when the second coming is going to happen and all the things are going to happen in Between but you've also created a false month Where the Spirit comes back That that don't What's that? 30 days, it's a fault like you added a month.
30:03: It's just you know you making that up Not at all But but I will say this if you look at go back where we just were saying that Thessalonians to look at verse 8 It there is a reference here to the man of lawlessness it says and Then the lawless one will be revealed when the Lord Jesus will kill whom the Lord Jesus will kill the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing By the appearance of his coming the coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan in all power and fault signs and wonders and With all wicked deception for those who are perishing because they refuse to love the truth and so be safe So the question is who is this man? Who is the lawless one? right and and You said the Pope earlier First John to calls this I believe The Antichrist, but what is first John to also say? Many I'm in Christ will come right so in that sense It's not it's not just the Antichrist which we normally think of but he says many Antichrist will come and so that's why I think When you take the position that maybe it was the Pope well Maybe there have been Antichrist in every generation.
31:24: There's always those who are Antichrist Yes Yeah Yeah, I've heard that I've heard that argument I think you and I've talked about that argument that that perhaps because the devil doesn't know when the ends coming he's just sort of got a guy in the wings who is the man of lawlessness and So so we have three three three uses of language we have man of lawlessness in first or second Thessalonians 2 We have Antichrist first John 2 and we have beast in Revelation 13 Now if they are the same If they are the same my argument would be that it's referring to something that happened in the lifetime of the recipients of the letter Because I believe that the book of Revelation When it refers to the beast is actually referring to Nero and I'll make that argument when we get to that study Because remember one thing about the New Testament letters They have an original audience Who would have understood? This within the context of their lifetime That's the part I think people often miss Is they assume Paul's talking about something 3,000 years in the future 2,000 years in the future Rather than something that may be 10 years in the future Yes, and that's what we call the already and the not yet the argument that and that's the that's When when I teach on Revelation and I teach I take a preterist position Which means I believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled in 8070.
33:22: However, I also believe that there is a potential What would be the already in the not yet that it potentially works itself out also through history and therefore the beast in? Revelation could also be referring to the Pope Rome those things but I think there I think the immediate Fulfillment has to be considered the immediate How would the Thessalonians have understood first Thessalonians to who would they have seen as the man of lawlessness? Possibly that's what I say.
33:57: I don't know for sure but certainly not 2,000 years in the future I guess my question would be if I mean when you think about Genesis 3.15 Sure.
34:16: That was a promise that was way off in the future.
34:20: Sure, absolutely.
34:21: So there are a lot of types So that's what I meant like, okay, could it be Could it be that there was something that did happen, but it was pointing to something else? Yeah, and a good example of this would be in the in the book of Daniel where the book of Daniel refers to the abomination of desolation the abomination of desolation is mentioned in the book of Daniel and many people believe that that was what happened when Antiochus Epiphanes destroyed came in and besieged Jerusalem set up a Statue of Zeus in the temple and it was during the Maccabean rebellion that they came in and destroyed that statue, right? There was I don't remember that particular story, but there's a lot of stuff that happened in there probably you're right If you're probably remembering something, I just don't remember But the point I'm saying is Jesus later said when you see the abomination of desolation in the temple Then you'll know the time has come Which means and he said when you see Jesus said when you see the abomination spoken of in Daniel Which means that what happened under Antiochus wasn't the ultimate fulfillment Because that had already happened and yet Jesus is still talking about something in the future and he's referencing Daniel This is making sense brother looking a little looking Okay, I got like I'm saying something wrong I'll make sure There's a lot to think about right so is there the potential of a of a already and not yet absolutely, and And so ultimately my my only real reason for bringing this up is I do think One of the things that we miss often in reading these letters is how the original audience Would have understood the letter and and that's part of the historical grammatical hermeneutic How would the original audience have understood this in the context and the language of their day Now am I saying that it couldn't have a future fulfillment? No I'm saying that what what do we think Paul meant when he wrote this and what would his recipients have understood That's the goal right is to really get into the mind of Paul Because they because they did receive the coming of the Lord to be So they became idle.
37:01: Yeah Yeah Yeah, why I gotta do anything he's gonna come back tomorrow I mean, yeah, so so and and this leads me back to And I guess I didn't make I Feel bad cuz I felt like I didn't make this clear this leads me back to how our eschatology affects our behavior because if we think that Jesus is Going to come back after the world has been Christianized the postmillennial position Then he then there's he's not coming back tomorrow because we got a lot more work to do But if we believe That the world's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse and then he's going to return and rapture us out Then we're going to read every headline with the worst possible understanding Which is how a lot of people do they read the Bible in their right hand and they read the New York Times in their Left hand.
38:08: Oh, did you see that's Russia has invaded this? Oh, that's Gog and Magog and you're going back and forth, right? That and we understand everything and we have a New York Times version of History we're looking at what's happening now, and we're interpreting we're interpreting it based on what's happening in our lifetime We're not interpreting it based on what happened in their lifetime That's that's where I'm saying.
38:32: The issue is if we're looking at it through our lens Then I think we've missed The point Paul's writing to a people at a time dealing with a certain Context we want to read it into our time and make it our context And if if if our eschatology is bad, I think our behavior will be bad.
38:54: I think that's what Thessalonians we talked about idleness How many people I know of people who have the attitude? Well, Jesus is going to come back any time so What does it matter? What you know? That's the attitude is it or or should give you example should we go vote in November? But Jesus is coming back you can come back anytime who cares You understand that what I mean now somebody may take a super Calvinistic approach super Calvinistic makes me A super Calvinistic approach to say well, it doesn't matter if I vote because God's gonna put his man on the And I'm down with that but I'm not down with the idea that well, I Know Jesus is going to return in the next two years because of how bad everything is You know, they're already rebuilding the temple and they're already talking about putting Sacrifices on the temple and I know when that happens Jesus is going to return because that's all he's waiting on is for those sacrifices to begin again You see I'm saying and and therefore it leads to that idleness though We're just talking about it leads to it.
40:09: It leads to a wrong understanding of our we're supposed to keep our hand to the plow Until the Lord descends and we do not know the day or the hour men like Harold camping If you never heard that name before Harold camping was the head of a thing called family radio It was a Christian radio station and for years Family radio was was good.
40:33: And then he began to start setting dates for Jesus's return and every time he'd set a date based on his Daniel Ezekiel Algebra stuff that he was doing Every time he'd set a date and Jesus didn't return He'd set a new date.
40:52: I got it wrong I was off by a month and he'd do another day 30 days later didn't come again Oh, it was a couple years now.
40:58: We'll do it.
40:58: You said it and there were people with vans y'all vans with with signs That Said he's coming back on this day.
41:08: It was a book 88 reasons.
41:11: Jesus is coming back in 1988 He had a reformed background Yeah, he was yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say he's not reformed now Yeah, brother Tell him your sermon title.
41:30: Oh, I did a sermon on Harold camping called camping on dangerous ground Yeah, but that was the last time because after his last failed Prediction he stopped doing predictions and then he died shortly thereafter And it was really a sad tale of a man who was so confused.
41:53: Oh Yeah, like I said the dude with the van it takes a lot to I mean Teen wolf your van is a big it's a difficult thing to do.
42:02: So that was an 80s reference, but it did turn your van into a Harold camping sign.
42:09: It's not cheap.
42:10: So somebody did that so Anyhow, I went way too far in Thessalonians Anyway, the first and second Thessalonians is very important if you if you have not spent time in it, I would encourage you to These letters are written to a young church Experiencing suffering for following Christ in the context of first century Macedonia.
42:31: Please try to read within that context when you're reading that The second thing is the pastoral epistles and the pastoral epistles They haven't always been called the pastoral epistles but since the 1700s they have basically been referred to as the pastoral pistols and this would be first and second Timothy and Titus and they're called that basically because they examine the motivations and qualifications of the pastoral office if you are a pastor brother Tim or you have a desire to be an elder or pastor in the church my Commendation to you would be to spend a great deal of time in first and second Timothy and Titus Because it examines both the motivations and the qualifications for the pastoral office a lot of scholars want to argue That first and second Timothy and Titus were not written by Paul.
43:32: They call them pseudonymous, which means fake name I Don't believe that claim holds water.
43:39: I think Paul certainly wrote first Timothy I I think there's tons of evidence that he wrote second Timothy because there's a lot of personal Interjections that he makes about his relationship with Timothy and with his grandmother and mother and those things so I think those are internal evidences of Paul this being from Paul not just from some rando who's using his name and First and first Timothy and Titus were likely written about the same time and Would have been after Paul was released from his first imprisonment in Rome second Timothy would have come later during his second imprisonment Awaiting his execution and they would have all been written within the time period of the 60s and they serve as Well for lack of better term they serve as a sort of manual for church leadership They are full of heart well heartfelt warnings and instructions that characterize Paul's ministry they reveal his pastor's heart for the care of the churches he founded and He speaks about church organization the role of men and women Revealing Christ as mediator between God and men Encouraging believers in the perseverance of their faith and to remain firm and sound doctrine so all of those things are found in the pastoral epistles There's not a lot of theology in the the pastorals Because they're very practical but there are some theological insights that you should probably make note of number one Probably the best expression of the inspiration of Scripture is found in 2nd Timothy 3 16 and 17 all scriptures given by inspiration of God And is profitable for teaching for rebuke for correction and for training and righteousness that the man of God May be fully equipped for every good work We're familiar with that passage and that passage Really does lay the foundation for what we would call the doctrine of inspiration The doctrine that the Bible is God breathed.
45:47: So to say there's no theology would be wrong, but it's certainly Much more practical than it is theological.
45:55: It also references the media mediatorial work of Christ 1st Timothy chapter 2 But most of all it deals as I said with ecclesiology, which is the doctrine of the church Turn in 1st Timothy if you would to chapter 3 verse 14, I think 1st Timothy 3 14 gives the If you will the thesis statement of the book Or at least the purpose statement 1st Timothy 3 14.
46:27: I Hope to come to you soon But I'm writing these things to you So that if I delay you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God Which is the church of the Living God a pillar and buttress of the truth.
46:43: I Could preach on that for days Think of what he's saying I'm writing these things to you.
46:50: So if I delay in coming to you, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God What does that tell us? What is that? What's the primary implication of that? There's a right way to behave in church Which would also imply that there is a Wrong way to behave in church.
47:11: I think people think church is a free-for-all especially nowadays this side of the this side of the well All the revolutions the sexual revolution the homosexual revolution and all the different things that have happened The church has become somewhat of a free-for-all of behavior People don't care how they behave people don't care how they treat other people people don't care As long as you're as long as you are as long as you can pretend that whatever you're doing is loving Then you get away with just about anything but Paul does not allow that Paul gives us a Foundation for how one ought to behave in the church and then he says this He says it's the pillar and buttress of the truth Now I've spent some time thinking about what that means, you know what a pillar is a pillar is something that holds something up a Buttress is you know something that holds something together And so we have this pillar that the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth.
48:14: What truth? the Word of God The church upholds the Word of God this is why in The in the Protestant Church the pulpit is in the center and highest place Because what sits on the pulpit? the Word of God in the Roman Catholic Church particularly during the mid-age middle medieval ages the pulpit Was more of a lectern that was on the side And what was in the center was that was the what they called the altar what we've called the communion table the communion table was at the point of centrality and and don't think for a second that That kind of stuff doesn't matter because I've heard all it doesn't matter what your church looks like everything says something an architecture says something and And when the Word of God and the preaching of the Word of God is put to the side and the communion table is put in the center and the highest point it becomes the most important thing and Roman Catholic theology going to church is not about hearing the sermon.
49:33: It's not about hearing from the Word of God It's about getting what? The mass receiving of the Eucharist right receiving of the mass That's the most important.
49:41: I don't care if I hear the sermon.
49:43: I don't care if I sing a song Just give me the wafer because I need my sins forgiven.
49:46: You know, it's that holy etch-a-sketch.
49:48: I gotta shake it off, right? I need that wafer that was a little offensive but I Heard a guy one time he's Roman Catholic.
49:57: He said yeah with our sins We just walk in and like an etch-a-sketch it all goes away They put in our mouth it dissolves it goes, you know but the Protestants pulpit in the center and often elevated Talked about this last night.
50:15: I was talking about church music Charles Spurgeon led the music in his church and he preached He would come in and he would stand on the chancel at the bottom and he would lead the songs There was no accompaniment.
50:28: It was just voices.
50:29: He'd leave the songs then he would walk up the staircase To the pulpit Where he would preach the word Elevated as the Word of God was at the highest place So we talked about the pillar in the buttress of the truth, right? That's it.
50:47: That's that's a visual reminder that that's what the church's purpose is to uphold the truth and There's a way to do that.
50:56: There's a way to behave in church and that's what first and second Timothy and Titus Really are about how to behave in the household of God And so a lot of people, you know Well, the church is not a building the church isn't a building but the church is the gathering the word Ecclesia means assembly and So it's it's whether we gather outdoors whether we gather indoors There's there's a household that gathers and there's a way that we ought to behave all right, so let's Talk a little bit about the yes Like you said it's a way we ought to behave.
51:40: Sometimes the view of church is universal as To not to be accountable to the whole church And so because it is not taken as serious as it ought as it ought to be You have people that go from church to church to church.
51:59: Yeah, and hey, I'm a part of the church Oh, I don't have to go to church.
52:03: Yeah, I am the church.
52:04: So all those things I think go out of the understanding What how we ought to behave in the church that means that there should be some type of accountability Absolutely, if you're from place to place and you're not accountable to and I'm not talking about just to the elders I'm talking about to the congregation itself to the people that you gather with Then how can this be without? Absolutely Well, it's the post the post post revolutionary world the sexual revolution the cultural revolution the homosexual revolution all that We're on this side of it Post Enlightenment all those things.
52:41: I mean what's funny brothers? I Jennifer's birthday two years ago We were at a restaurant and a guy came over Real nice guy and I remember it's her birthday because he sang happy birthday had a beautiful voice And I asked him if he went to church and he said no I am the church.
52:57: I Said no, you know And he just looked at me I said the word church means assembly you can't assemble by yourself Who are you? You're not the church when you're by yourself You're part of the body of Christ universal, yes, but you're not the church The church is the household of God.
53:25: It's the body of Christ There's so much that you can't read first and second Timothy and Titus and come away with that nonsense You really can't So, so anyway, let's talk let's have our discussion then we're gonna take our break this is a here's the discussion in 1st and 2nd Timothy We have some of the most debated passages in regard to the question of women in ministry Yeah Maybe I should have given us more than five minutes.
53:57: I Would like to hear your thoughts and if you want let's read let's read first first Timothy chapter 2 Verses 12 and 11 So 1st Timothy 2 11 It says Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather She is to remain quiet and then it goes on to use Adam and Eve as the example and Titus 2 it says In verse 3 it says older women likewise ought to be reverent in behavior not slanderers or slaves too much wine They are to teach what is good and so to train young women To love their husbands and children, so we have two we have two not competing passages But two passages one says women are not to teach the other says women are to teach women younger women specifically And so those have to be harmonized.
54:53: We talked about harmonization before right? They don't contradict each other, but they're speaking of two contexts So right away my question to you would be what are your thoughts on the issue of a woman? Holding the position of pastor elder Okay, no, okay.
55:13: I want more than Go ahead Ross Okay, so the argument then that I know you're not making the argument But I'm glad you asked because the argument that you're referencing is often made That Paul is speaking within a context and didn't I just say 30 minutes ago That we have to read this within the context that it was written and to the audience and to the original audience and so the original Audience context would have been that women did not have voices in their world like they have today And so therefore this would not apply to today That isn't certainly an argument that has not only been made, but I would say has been made Successfully in many churches Go ahead brother That's right It roots it in creation.
56:20: You are right and I would say that's that's how I would answer it first and foremost is that it does not root it in culture But it roots it in the creation mandate that men and women have a different role And Adam and Eve had a different role and so that would be the way I would answer the culture argument But I do have a counter-argument to that only because I'm gonna get to you brother.
56:44: I promise only because I like to be I Never played devil's advocate because I would never advocate for the devil, but I do like to think I Like to think from the perspective of if I were on the other side what argument would I make? because that helps me be better at forming my own position and I want to hear what brother Tim has to say and then I'll tell you what my response would be Absolutely Yeah, you're outrunning me a little bit, but you're right you are right Timothy Our first Timothy gives us more than just this statement.
57:28: This statement is often the one the the Exemption clause when they're exempt from teaching and they base that on first Timothy 2 11 and 12 But if you go to first Timothy 3 and look at the qualifications, what are some of the primary qualifications for an elder that he is? The ruler of his home that he rules his home Well that he is the husband of one wife and and and so there are language that is specific to a man But let me let me throw this at you I Don't know what your position is on this and in three minutes.
58:14: We're not going to be able to debate it But in 1st Corinthians we have the argument that women ought to cover their heads and worship and many churches do not Support that as a ongoing Demand but would say it was a purely cultural demand But Paul also uses creation For that argument not culture So what you said brother? You understand what I'm saying is if we're going to be consistent and say that creation makes it not cultural Then and you might say well we wear head covering so you solve the problem But you understand where I and I'm all I'm purely coming at this from the position of I I am firmly In agreement that women should not be pastors women should not be elders Deacons, I think there's another argument to be made for that, but specifically pastors and elders I would not allow for that and we don't allow for it here at our church But the the issue and it's 1st Corinthians 11 I think brother if you want to look it up real quick is he roots the argument of head coverings in creation as well and So, why are we not having our women wear head coverings? Yes, but if what I'm what I'm saying Tim is if if we're saying that Because Paul uses creation as his foundation for the argument that women should not be elders Paul also uses creation as his foundation that women should wear head coverings Then it's not cultural.
01:00:12: That's what I'm saying.
01:00:12: Yeah, then it's not cultural Brother go ahead Okay, well now we're getting into a dangerous area of interpretation because we're taking the allegorical approach that he's not talking about literal head coverings Yeah, and we don't have time obviously obviously but My point is only to simply say this the people who would say women should be pastors Often use the head covering argument.
01:00:51: They'll say you don't make women wear head coverings Why don't you allow them to be pastors because it's all cultural.
01:00:58: I Not advocating for the devil, I'm making I'm making you think because I my wife and I've talked about this many times About the question of whether or not she should wear a covering over her head.
01:01:12: I Tell you somebody who believed in head coverings by surprise.
01:01:15: It was dr.
01:01:15: R.
01:01:15: C.
01:01:15: Sproul He never enforced it, but he did believe that it was not simply cultural So that there's a lot to be considered there Okay Yeah, well I've taught on this text I think that this text teaches I'll give you my the two-cent interpretation I taught through first Corinthians a couple years ago I believe that this text clearly shows that there is to be a distinction between men and women in the church and that there should not be What I would say well, I call the sermon cross-dressing that was a title of the sermon that men should look like men and women should Look like women and that there should not be a usurpation of roles.
01:02:09: Neither should there be a mixing of Appearance but women should look like women and men should look like men Yes, and that's why I say I think that I think that Paul is using a cultural example to make a Foundational principle the foundational principle is that men and women are different Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn't say it's metaphoric.
01:02:33: I would say he's using an example from the culture to Principially explain a point and I just I'm a little I'm allergic to the word metaphor You know, I'm really careful with how we use metaphorical interpretation But you know if you want to hear what I had to say on the subject go back and download first with the sermon It's it's all available Didn't mean to take up that much time with it, but you see though.
01:02:58: This is not a simple question What would you say if you went to a church and there was a woman who was a pastor? You believe yeah, okay That I mean When I became the pastor here, I was 25 years old and we had a female elder This church was very different 15 years ago than it is today My My ordination certificate Has a woman's name on it Now some people would would take great offense at that.
01:03:36: I From the moment I took this office She knew where I stood that I was opposed to the position and eventually she did step down by God's grace but in my ordination Examination which happened in that room down there She asked me do you agree that I'm an elder it should be in this position I said no ma'am I do not She said okay So I never hesitated and I never doubted this position I felt this position I mean, I just don't think you can read it any other way Unless you come at it from the position of culture and say it's only cultural So yes That's right, that is exactly right and that's the argument I used with her I said I'm opposed to you being an elder in the same reason.
01:04:39: I would be opposed to a man who is gay being an elder Because I think that you're not qualified for the position All right.
01:04:51: Let's take a five-minute break and we'll come back and we'll finish up with Philemon We have looked at the pastorals we've looked at first and second Thessalonians and now we're going to finish by talking about the little letter of Philemon My notes literally say this if time allows read the whole book time does not allow But you could it's 25 verses you could read this as your devotional for before you go to bed tonight Paul appeals to Philemon on behalf of Onesimus a slave Who has become a brother in Christ This is a private letter one which also has value for a public audience Paul writes to Philemon about a sensitive issue and urges him in a way that is both brotherly and pastoral Paul is unanimously viewed as the author.
01:05:47: There's no real debate about that and This was probably written alongside Colossians Colossians Colossians mentions Timothy and other companions and one of those is Onesimus.
01:06:00: Onesimus is mentioned in Colossians chapter 4 verse 9 so it's likely that Colossians and Philemon are written at the same time.
01:06:11: They're both considered to be among the prison epistles Remember you break Paul's letters You have the Pauline epistles and then you break them further down into the pastorals and the prison epistles Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon are all prison epistles written from from prison and There's not a lot of field.
01:06:33: There's not a lot of theology in in Philemon, but but there are some insights that we can draw and Interpretive challenges that we can deal with with what little time we have and the big issue is that is the issue of how this book addresses the subject of slavery Slavery is a subject that is difficult to talk about because slavery is a subject that is for so many people an emotional powder keg as soon as it's mentioned we are Immediately brought to our mind visions of people being kidnapped and taken to foreign lands and chains Used for all kinds of horrible labor and we think about rapes and mistreatment and and certainly, we know that our own nation was divided over the subject of slavery and There was an entire war fought to settle the dispute so It's a big issue But one of the things that must be understood when discussing the subject of slavery is that slavery is not unique to America It is not unique to the American South It is not unique to white and black people slavery is and Has always been Practiced in our world and it's still practiced today There are slaves around the world today now on this side of the Civil War slavery is less than it was prior to that because part of the benefit of America's again abolition of slavery Was that it set a precedent that much of the rest of the modern world has sought to follow Not all but much and that's one of the things that we have to remember is as much as people like to denigrate America's past slavery sins, we must remember that it was also Americans who abolished it and It was Americans who died fighting against it.
01:09:04: And so Have we sinned? Yes But we've also led the world in abolishing this great sin But we have to go back a little further.
01:09:18: That was my my slavery speech Now we have to go back further and say was the slavery of the first century was the slavery of the ancient world the same as what we think of the chattel slavery of the Old South I Don't necessarily think it was even though there was a sense in which people were owned I think that the way that economies worked were much different than what we would think of as market economies of today and The Bible actually gives ways for handling slavery If you read the Old Covenant, there are slavery rules and laws for how and how did someone become a slave often? They would yeah, it was it was a debtors prison If you will they they would they would have a debt that they owed that they could not pay and the only way to pay the debt they Nobody could file chapter 11, you know, they didn't have they didn't have bankruptcy.
01:10:25: And so they're they themselves would have to go into slavery or their families would have to go into slavery and and often it was People who were very poor it was the way that they survived there was a It was a way for them to live and have remember this I don't ever forget this I think this is important from a historical how how it was viewed remember the prodigal son when he left his father and took his his premature Inheritance and he went away to a far country and he ended up feeding the pigs and he found himself Wanting to eat the pig slop What did he say? He said he came to himself and he said my father's servants Live better than I do now.
01:11:16: And so I'm going to go and offer myself as my father's slave rather than a son I'm going to go back and be my father's servant, so the The conditions of slavery I think have to be understood within the context of stories like that.
01:11:32: Was there Inhumane treatment.
01:11:35: Yes.
01:11:35: This is why the Bible makes that sinful Don't mistreat this person or that person But when we come to the story of Philemon and for those of you who don't remember that essentially there's a Slave who has left he is He's escaped and he's come under the teaching of Paul and now he's saved and This slave who now is saved Paul is intimately familiar with his former master And so Paul writes this letter and he says I want you to receive him not as a slave but as a brother and So I do think that that gives us at least somewhat of an insight into the attitude of slavery in the early church the attitude of how Paul saw slavery that rather than seeing your slave as a slave if they're a believer to see them as a brother in Christ and so That doesn't answer all the questions for me, but I think that does at least open the door to say That there was there was a different understanding of the dignity of the slave From Paul, he is a brother in Christ.
01:13:01: He is not just chattel.
01:13:03: He's not just property he's a brother and I love something that Paul says in the in Philemon's letter.
01:13:12: He says I Could make you do this But I appeal to you as a Fellow servant of Christ, right? I could I could I'm Paul.
01:13:25: Yo, I can tell you I Could say you better do it or I'm gonna bring the weight of the whole church against you But I'm not going to I'm going to appeal to you as a fellow servant of Christ to receive this person as a brother So the question for discussion that I have I Wrote it out I said many people attack the Bible's view of slavery and see it as problematic and view of modern of The modern abolition of slavery in our country some even use the Bible's references to slavery as an argument For for slavery prior to the Civil War Do you think the Bible endorses slavery and how would you respond to someone who attacked the Bible as supporting slavery? Yeah Yeah, just because something is regulated doesn't mean it's endorsed that's a good point I think that's a good point brother you What you said, but I also think that it was The slavery that was happening that we see in the United that we said we saw in the United States I think it was present And I think sometimes we don't want to talk about that being present Because that is a way to appease those If we believe the gospel's power of God and the salvation then we just preach the gospel not try to appease people who would Point to that because they were I mean when you think about especially the Egyptians, yeah, there was obviously Torturous slavery.
01:15:09: Yeah Sometimes I think we go overboard trying to say well, it was different time.
01:15:14: It's like no the point is is that when you think about what Paul says and Jerome's he tells him to Obey those in authority.
01:15:23: Well Nero was in authority.
01:15:25: Mm-hmm And so the point is is that if we're in Christ that should be more than sufficient and I think when we try to to To gird that up with something else Especially when you come to some of the people that I've talked to who are like black Hebrew Israelites and stuff like that They know that No, there was slavery just like this in the Bible and the fact that you're trying to cover it up Let's me know that that's the white man's gospel.
01:15:51: No, I just think we should know slavery is slavery because of the fall and And that's that you need Jesus and I think when we try to cover it up in my I just think In some in some instances, we should not say I like that.
01:16:11: I wish you were closer to the microphone I hope everybody can hear what you're saying.
01:16:14: It's good.
01:16:15: That was good By the way, if y'all don't know this this this records y'all is this I have a microphone that records me But I have so many people that watch these videos when I used to just have my microphone They're like I can't hear the people.
01:16:27: I want to hear the people and I understand why because of these conversations So brother, I hope people heard that.
01:16:32: I think that's a good point that you made now.
01:16:34: Let me ask you this not you but everybody With that thought We know that Mistreating anyone slave or free is sinful But does that make slavery itself simple and go ahead Ross do you want to say that? Oftentimes, I mean slavery is bad mistreating people are bad But oftentimes it led to a better life in certain circumstances So Does say They chose to stay asleep.
01:17:21: Yeah, there's there many passages where they because a year jubilee everybody can be set free Not everybody want to be set free Yeah They were really Struggling to survive if they did offer that comfort in that and that's that person's choice and it all depends on it if they're treating them like a believer if they're believer and They're treating wrong.
01:17:42: I Mean when we think about history even George Washington when you look People say well, he owns slaves.
01:17:48: Well his historically he owned his only the slave was to protect him from the brutal the brutality and Actually Trying to provide for his for his slaves, so, you know, so when we look back and we see Some of the some of the great men of God who own slaves.
01:18:11: It's like, okay, that was an institution that was illegal But the whole point of it is is how did they treat their slave? They give them the gospel if they love them and they do those things.
01:18:21: That's my question brother And that's what I'm wanting to add.
01:18:23: That's what I'm is the institution itself Slavery is that a sin or not? That's the question.
01:18:30: I'm not I'm not telling you I'm giving you the answer I'm trying to my job often is to simply propose the question because if we're saying that the positive treatment of slaves can be beneficial and therefore useful Does that? Here's where's why I'm not trying to make this more difficult than has to be should There's nowhere in Philemon that Paul calls Philemon to repent of being a master to slaves I want to hear it.
01:19:07: That's what I'm asking.
01:19:08: I personally think the connotation that we've given the word slave and the cultural aspect Then we would say yes slavery is sin But only based on the connotation that you give it because when you look at it When you go clock in are you not a slave? Are you not on someone else's clock? There are certain things that they have over you.
01:19:33: You can't leave we said well you can't leave well there were instances after You know that that slaves could have left, but they chose to stay so I personally don't believe slavery itself is a sin I Think that if we have a right understanding of what slavery was and isn't yet I think we've Americanized slavery like we've Americanized the gospel Yeah And a lot of people see so the slavery in America was was in some sense based on a form of Kidnapping because a lot of those people were taken Unwillfully from their homes.
01:20:06: You know they they weren't in debt.
01:20:08: They were I'm saying so so there So there are foundational things that we could say are would have been sinful at the root, right? Huh? Kidnapping is sinful.
01:20:20: Yes always yeah, and so Bobby you want to say something? Yeah, yeah, and and so you know if I if I go into debt to you And I become your slave as a result of debt That's not the same as you kidnapping me and taking me to a foreign land and doing They were they were they were they were prisoners of war in the African tribes warred against each other and These people were their prisoners sure I'm not talking about.
01:20:52: I'm not saying universally.
01:20:53: I'm yeah You know I'm just saying like how we view it here in America And I and I think a lot of people who are Christians that we back away from no you were not kidnapped You were slow you were sold for You know rum and spices and all these things by your captives in Africa with people who look like you I think when we make it a black and white thing as opposed to just saying okay This is wrong once the slaves got here their mistreatment They were in sin when you mistreated any human being that's right But but I think we need to separate the two and be more honest, and that's what I'm trying to do I'm trying to see if it's right I'm asking the question do we think it's right to separate? Slavery from the act of mistreatment is slavery itself necessarily mistreatment That's that's the question right and then the next the next is and I were out of time, but the next question too is When when the Bible says in Christ Galatians 3 it was a 324 in Christ.
01:21:57: There's neither slave nor free There's neither male nor female, but we're all one in Christ Jesus That doesn't mean that there's not men and women in the church and that men and women don't have different functions But that it does mean that men and women are Equal before Christ, and I think when we see that the same thing applied to Philemon Here's this man who's a brother in Christ right receive him as a brother But how how would Philemon have Received him would he still be under his authority or would he be released and freed? It doesn't say we're not told how that would work out and and like I said, I think this I think it gives an insight at least into the idea of We see our brothers in Christ as Brothers in Christ all slaves are the same master who is Christ and that and that that's another thing John MacArthur recently You may or may not know this is they're putting out their own translation of the Bible There it's a new translation like we needed another one.
01:23:05: We're so we're so filled with Translations the fact that we need another one.
01:23:09: We don't Huh? MacArthur's putting out there the master seminary is putting out their own translation and one of the big The big thing about it is the word do loss Which is normally translated as bond servant is going to be translated as slave We are slaves to Christ and he's taking a lot of a lot of negative for that Yeah But let me ask brother do Wouldn't it wouldn't we have to go and see what type of slave situation that existed between? Because if it was because he was in debt, maybe Paul was saying forgive his debt.
01:23:54: Yeah, there's all yeah We and we don't know that right? I mean, I don't know if there have been any extensive Commentaries historical or whatever to to look at the language used to try to discern something like that I've never done that extensive of a study to know but perhaps that information is is available.
01:24:10: Hey, we got a paper due later Why don't you write your paper? I'd love to hear what you come up with.
01:24:17: All right, you guys have a good time Was I was really I'm glad we were had a small group I think we had some good conversations Let's end with prayer Father, thank you for this time that we've had together.