Open Phones on Today's Dividing Line

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After a brief discussion of being "strangers and pilgrims" on this earth, we went to the phones and had a really good range of calls on subjects ranging from the Greek of Ephesians 2 to a lengthy discussion of annihilationism. Next week John Samson will be filling in for me while I am ministering in Salt Lake City!

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Well, good afternoon welcome to what may be the last dividing for a little line for a little while at least with me sitting here
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I don't know. We'll see. I'm not sure if you have contact John Samson's coming in next week. All right good
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I'm gonna be up with Jason Wallace at the OPC Church in Salt Lake City this weekend
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If you're going to the building tomorrow's church conference, we'll be speaking there and And then driving up I'm actually sort of looking forward to the drive up Salt Lake when was the last time
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That we would have done that. I mean that was that was Had to bend the 90s.
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Yeah. Yeah had to bend the 90s. I mean remember remember pushing the the the beetle around the
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Motel 6 parking lot I Actually do remember that one that would would have been my one of my first trips
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Actually, I think we took my truck that time. Remember the blue truck that well down it broke down coming down I -17.
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Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was fuel pump wasn't it middle of the night fuel pump goes You got six people in that thing because we had him in the camper in the back
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Bought this hundred dollar camper show and then built a platform for people to lay down on That was comfy.
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Oh, man. Oh, man. Yeah. Well, and of course even before then mid 80s 80 -45
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Mike and I in the Dodge Dart that had so many holes in the floorboard. I never saw the dart
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My wife still has nightmares about it She reminds me of that everyone so I remember that thing you had
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No to body parts for the same color. That was terrible. It's like yes, dear.
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Thank you but There are so many holes in the floorboard underneath that the wind would just come straight in on your feet
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We had to stop at at the dam up there and Mike had to find socks To put to try to cover his feet because he was his feet were freezing down there.
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And oh, yeah Yeah, that was Those are the days man. So I'm looking forward to I'm looking forward to two things when
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I go to Salt Lake. First of all, there's this There's this drive -in place in Kanab Kanab, Utah where remember we'd stop there because it's pretty long drive from there to flag and In fact, it was right after that we did we were playing that chess game.
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Remember we played the chess game over the Seabees Well, you you did that that was not me. Yes, I realized that but yeah
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I was actually playing chess with the with the car that was driving behind us And I didn't have a board because I was driving so I did it.
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I was doing it all in my mind That was our call correctly. You still won. No, no. No, I lost the position because we had a real close passing
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My life flashed for my eyes lost the position in the game. Oh, well, there were a few Yeah, no two ways about it but there was this remember that drive -thru where Drive -in type thing.
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I don't know what it was, but that's where we'd stop and get something eaten there in Kanab So I remember chicken fingers there.
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So I'm gonna see if it's still around and get chicken fingers. And of course even Jason confirmed taco time is still in Salt Lake City and So I'm gonna be able to for the first time in about four years
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Have a crisp meat burrito Which I understand has about 1 ,400 milligrams of sodium per burrito
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I was gonna say it's probably more likely per ounce Yeah, yeah
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It's I'm gonna have to do some serious riding that day just to make up for that one trip to taco time
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But but it has to be done has to be done anyway So we're going up there and we're doing we're doing stuff the whole week basically starting
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Tuesday night on I Guess it's the last night. The TV 20 is going to be allowing them to do their stuff
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We'll be on will be Tuesday night So we'll be on then and of course by then the
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Supreme Court will have profane marriage I mean after today's decision does it is is anyone really questioning?
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I mean words have no meanings laws have no meanings History has no meaning
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We are we are in the only thing that hasn't happened yet for 1984 to be completely fulfilled is that the totalitarians are
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Being down our doors and dragging us away and sticking rat cages on our faces. That's That's that's the only thing left and and that's the next step.
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It's absolutely stunning So it'll happen between now and Tuesday.
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So I'm sure we'll have something to be talking about At that particular point in time and So anyways, if you're in the
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Salt Lake area up there in Utah, I look forward to seeing you there That will be that'll be a good time.
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Um, I Had this text up last week and I'll just go ahead and mention it in passing here
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We're opening the phones at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three
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Three three four one what? Well, just tell somebody we weren't oh, oh
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The microphone got in your way. Okay. All right You just looked perturbed for some reason when I started saying we're gonna open the phones
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It's like, you know, we used to have Skype even but you know, we're making it more simple now
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So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number? Yeah, someone in channel does not want the rat cages.
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Hey, I'm with you on that but Room 12 room 12 with you. We just need to start
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Memorizing some that stuff Hebrews 11 13 has a phrase that I really think
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I mentioned on Twitter is going to become more and more and more meaningful to us
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Because I don't know that we've been living it We may have in a sense
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Recognized its general truth But It says all these died in faith without receiving the promises but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance and having confessed that they were strangers and Exiles on your strangers and exiles on the earth now strangers is
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Zen oi Appears a lot in the Greek septuagint as a foreigner as The one that is that is not an
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Israelite one that is dwelling in the land But it is not they are not a part of that culture that people and the other term is not nearly as as prevalent or utilized
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In in the Greek Old Testament, there are a few places where it is found but not not too many and Well, it's only found two places
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Genesis 23 for I am a Sojourner and foreigner among you so notice in both places
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There's sort of the Hebrew parallelism Repetitive type thing. Ah, I don't know why he does these things
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I really don't you know, but that camera used to be aimed at him and now it's sitting right there and it's zoomed in and The remote is missing so I can't zoom it back out.
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Yeah, he's got in the other room. Yeah, uh -huh because I would go new Yeah anyways, uh and the same thing in Psalm 38
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I am a sojourner with you a guest like all my fathers and so Both terms being used in parallel fairly frequently
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That text in Hebrews Talks about those, you know, they went went long before us and you know, we when
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I preach through Hebrews we talked about you know The recognition they had that they had not received the promises and stuff like that.
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But let's let's be honest. Um, a Lot of us have become very very comfortable
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Here in the West we have All the food you could ever eat in fact Half of us sit around trying to lose weight because we have so much food
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We have doctors and we have amazing drugs that can do wonderful things for us
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We're pretty comfortable we've got our you know I live here in Arizona and like I said in the last program the the
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Pope says this is evil, but I'm awful glad that we have air conditioning here in In the studios right now.
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Most of our equipment really would not be functioning if we didn't but we have we have a lot of comforts and It's really easy to get it's really easy to view this world as our home and the
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Lord has ways of Reminding us that that is not the case and as I look around at the world today as I listen
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To the world and how it's thinking I go.
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I I don't belong here This is this is completely outside my
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My area of even understanding how people can think this way View the world this way and and part of it is is
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I feel extremely sorry for people who have the worldview that that is leading to the moral and ethical and sanity that is
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Illustrated every single day It's it My daughter actually posts something on Facebook I didn't bring it up But she was saying basically the same thing that that what has happened to our culture that we're all a bunch of babies now
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I mean when you have on College campuses you have special rooms where you can go safe places
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With with toys to play with and graham crackers and milk and you can take curl up and take a nap and have your bankie
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I mean really It is institutionalized infancy and I said in response to her
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I said well, yeah the totalitarians They they want it's a whole lot easier to to control a society filled with children than a society filled with adults
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And all this stuff about you know, I'm just offended by everything. I am offended by every just all around us absolutely all around us it is
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I Don't even don't even know where to go but Having confessed
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And that's the standard term for confession How am I getting having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth and how did they confess that?
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by being strangers and exiles by not loving the things this world by not adopting the ways of thought of this world by not by not being willing to Abandon their their their belief in God so as to pursue the the things this world and We are going to be called upon to confess in our society
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I I can see it coming where you are, you know in the early church you had to offer the pinch of incense upon the altar and And Say Caesar is
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Lord. Well, there's lots of easy ways to force us to take a stand on the key issues today and The question is will we do it?
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What will we do when our you know, it's really easy We've talked about this in church history.
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It's really easy to look back and go That persecution really caused problems in the church What would we have done if we've been facing the same situation
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And all the rest that kind of stuff and and now it's coming for us and now we really realize, you know
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Some of you thought I was a little bit harsh on on dear brother Dave Hunt many years ago because he would go after people in the early church you'd go after Augustine or even in the
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Reformation period and he showed no understanding that he himself lives in history and that he himself will be judged by history and that there are gonna be people looking back upon him and When you realize that makes you a little less
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Willing to be uber harsh to everybody else from the past and You know,
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I Did the same thing is here is it's really easy to look back and sort of clinically go well the early church did this in response to this kind of pressure and this kind of persecution here and and this happened there and Now that we're getting there all of a sudden you realize how complicated it is
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Looking from the looking height, you know hindsight's 2020 It's real easy to see
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What happened and should have done this should that it's real easy to make those kind of judgments not so easy when you're in the situation yourself and It's gonna be it's gonna be a challenge it is going to be a challenge
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We're gonna learn a lot about ourselves and a lot about the grace of God But I am
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I am thinking a lot about If we are strangers and pilgrims if we are not to be comfortable then what does that look like and what does that mean to how
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I am to think and how I am to respond and When the decision comes down tomorrow
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Monday Tuesday, whenever it is How am I to respond to that I mean it's one thing to to righteously be indignant at the
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Foolishness of of our our society today and it's self -destructiveness and and everything else that that that's fine, but I can't live every day in this constant state of angst or anger or disgust
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I have to come to recognize that This is where God has called me to be this is his plan and therefore
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I am to embrace that and seek his will and to seek to be the best servant of his that I can and what that what's
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That gonna look like Well, there are certain things that's gonna look like for all of us, but there are also specific things it's gonna look like for each individual because we're each called to a different different place of service and So it's gonna take wisdom.
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We're gonna have to be in the word We're gonna have to be much less distracted with all the silliness of this world and man, there is a lot of that It'll be a purging thing it'll be a purging thing there's no two ways about it
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Having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. We're gonna be feeling that for for for real here in In probably just a matter of hours.
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I mean, I don't know if it's gonna be tomorrow Monday Tuesday, but it's coming and We'll be thinking about this text eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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So I've got a call from Australia. I need to go to Go to that first and so let's
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Drop down down under and talk to Ben in Australia There we go
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Ben, how you doing? Hi. Hi. Dr. White. Yes, sir. How you doing? All right.
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Don't worry about the cost because I'm getting it free through Google Okay. Well, I'll just go back to somebody else then.
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No Go ahead I've got a question about John chapter 5 31 to 47 because I've been reading it in White because I've actually been listening to you present against Dave Hunt and It says about you don't
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That You do not have his living word Yeah, you don't have his living word.
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This is the 38 because you do not believe the one he sent As this blinking is this linking into when
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John does this link into John 6 where it goes? Anything John 6 where it says about no one can come to the father except he who
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No, I'm sorry, which which verse were you referring to 38
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You do not have his word abiding in you for you not believe him whom he sent Yeah, and does that link does that that passage link in with?
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where it's John 6 in the sense of He's saying about Yeah My head's a bit all over the place, but yeah,
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I'm trying to think well saying about you do not know me and Is a test the witnesses you don't accept the witnesses yet and then
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John 6 says you Yeah, I I'm using a John I'm trying to think of you know, the four witnesses to Christ If we're up to in John 5 well, there's there's a slight difference between John 5 and John 6 in that John 5 is primarily focused upon the
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Jewish leaders and John 6 is simply the people in the synagogue, so it's not quite the same
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There's obviously more in John 5 about holding these individuals accountable
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For example 539 says you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life
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So these are people who have a lot of revelation from God. They possess the scriptures
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He can talk about the testimony of Moses and so on and so forth because these are people who are professing to know the
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Word of God And yet they remain Dead in their sins because they do not believe him whom he has sent
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They are rebelling against the very one that's fulfilled the prophecies that that are there in Scripture In verse 42 it says but I know you that you do not have the love of God in yourselves
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That is and then verse 44 How can you believe when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only?
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God so each one of these statements is a Stinging analysis and Explanation of the unbelief of the
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Jews in light of the revelation that they have received and That's not really the emphasis in in John 6 in John 6 you have people who are actually seeking after Jesus But for the wrong reasons, so John 5 is people who are rejecting
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Jesus Just straight out even in light of the great revelation in light that they have
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John 6 are people that are willing to Follow him. I mean they want to make him
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King If he'll just keep providing them with the free meals, you know, they'll be his army the whole nine yards
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But they don't recognize their spiritual need of Jesus. So there is a
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Very frequent. I think people miss The the fact that there is a difference between John 5 and John 6 the issue of unbelief deadness and sin that's not any different but the emphasis is is different between the two and so you you get a little more information about one group and then you might in the other chapter so on so forth, but There is that there is a difference between between the two
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Thanks that helpful. Okay. Yeah, it is good. It's it was just interesting because I'm here like some of the words
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I was reading in John But I've got me thinking on John 6 Because of just the just the hardening of the heart was the thing.
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I was well sure all the way through John you have Consistent themes that are developed in one way or the other
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I mean once you get to John chapter 9 You've got another instance of the blindness of those who claim to see
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Versus the seeing of those who were blind and and again it has to with the amount of light they've had
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There's there's there's lots of themes that John has woven together It's sort of come together in John 17, which sort of becomes the the hub that ties all these these themes together
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But there are differences between them and it's interesting to note that okay. Yep.
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All right. Thank you, man. Appreciate it Thank you. All right. God bless All right. Let's go to another
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Ben, but he's not quite as far away. Wisconsin isn't nearly as far away as Australia so Ben, what can we do for you?
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Doing good got a question These are two eight nine in the Greek. This is what this verse studying this in the
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Greek has got me to Think about regeneration prior to faith
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I was always on the basis of it happens at the same time and the reason this comes out in the
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Greek here, which is kind of I might have to switch my view on this is because you have the word grace in the feminine the word has or the
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Particle hasn't stayed in the masculine and faith in the feminine, but then you have the two -toe, which is neuter, right?
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So I've read a lot of articles by dr. Wallace and other Greek people on their opinions on this
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He's a Greek people now in your opinion. The two -toe is that referring to all three or do you think that's referring to?
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salvation Well as I as I laid out in the potter's freedom on this section
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I believe that the neuter two -toe is functioning as it does very often as a
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Summary of the entire phrase beforehand so That not of yourselves is a gift of God would refer to everything in the preceding phrase
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Which is why it is neuter rather than seeking to grammatically
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Match a particular element of the preceding section. So Grace is not of ourselves.
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It's a gift of God salvation is not ourselves as a gift of God as his faith Which is why
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Paul can in Philippians 129 likewise say it has been granted you not only to believe in him, but to suffer for his name so In just an easy
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Passing way he can speak of of the granting of the ability to believe and you put all that together with first John 5 1 and the fact that I think if you look carefully at the parallel syntactical constructions in first John 2 and 4 again
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This is all in the potter's freedom You see it's pretty tough to avoid the conclusion that what is being said in first John 5 1 is that The work of regeneration is what makes the continuation of faith
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The that's the result of that that work of regeneration not the other way around so I think there are a number of indications of that just simply in Statements that are made in passing all of which recognizes what
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Ephesians itself was saying in Ephesians chapter 1 that these blessings have been granted to us in Christ Jesus from eternity past and that we are the direct objects of his electing grace not
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Christ and then we get into Christ and therefore we become the direct objects the direct objects in the language are us and And That then becomes the foundation of everything else that Paul says so it's it is a consistent
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Consistent way of seeing what the scriptures are testifying to Okay, so then those who hold to?
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Being saved as what Paul's referring to here with this probably more of a theological interjection rather than exegetical
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Well if someone says that tuta is only talking about sessus minoi, well, how do you substantiate that?
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You know when you have when you have a neuter tuta following a phrase and and Chi is functioning to introduce that that sort of Apposition that that restating of the phrase that not of yourselves
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I don't know how you make the argument that it I mean, I suppose it's a theological idea that well
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Yeah, salvation is from God and Faith is our part and I guess I don't know what you do with grace
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But it seems rather clear to me that the whole point is that you're trying to get you have
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XHUMON not of ourselves then XERGO not of works And it again then ends up paralleling first Corinthians chapter 1
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For by his doing you are in Christ Jesus. So if anyone boasts, let him boast in the Lord. It's it's all
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It's all a regular part of of Paul's exhortation to Believers to recognize the centrality of God's grace in all things
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Excellent, thank you very much. I was wanting to ask you this for some time now. So thank you. Alrighty. You're most welcome.
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Thanks 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and let's talk to Robert.
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Hi Robert Hi, how are you? I'm good. Um, I Appreciate your work and I've read a couple of your books
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So I really appreciate them, but I want I want to give you a little bit background
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I used to be a member of Worldwide Church of God. Oh, yeah, and as a member of Worldwide Church of God, I believe in annihilationism
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So I'm actually looking to To gain church membership, and I know that the group that I'm fellowshipping right now has eternal torment on the
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Statement of Beliefs, so I don't know if it's going to be an issue or not But I'm still kind of like stuck in between annihilationism and eternal torment and there's two major reasons why
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One would be that the language that's used in the Bible to describe Eternal punishment including like destroyed destruction
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Perishing and like the second death and then the other issue would be that It seems like the final state of a person who isn't saved is going to be thrown to be thrown in the lake of fire
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Which is going to be covering the earth But it sounds later like the earth is
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Refinished and that God's dwelling place is going to be here So I guess what
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I'm wondering is in that scenario Where do the unsaved that are being eternally tormented go to if you could help me kind of try to figure out these?
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Questions I'd appreciate it Well, I've never heard honestly of the idea of the lake of fire covering the earth
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That's it. That's a new one on me. I had never I had never heard that before So I've never thought of responding to that because I don't see any reason why it would be viewed that way.
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I Don't see where in Scripture. It says that the lake of fire covers the earth So I don't know how to respond to that because that's that's a that's a novum for me
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I mean other than to say I don't see any evidence that that's the case and so I don't see it That's a actually a meaningful argument to say well and then since the earth is renewed later on That means that must be gone and so on and so forth this this issue is
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I Don't want to become the apologist for hell I I just I wish that there was someone who would
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Step up and do what needs to be done there. There are some there are some books out there that seek to Accurately handle this and put it in its proper historical context and stuff like that There But there needs to be more work done
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In in the area that needs to be more modern work done in the area, especially
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I think from a reformed perspective A lot of stuff that's out. There isn't necessarily thoroughly reformed in its in its outlook, but I don't know what
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What group you're talking about fellowshipping with and what they necessarily mean by eternal punishment generally, the issue is
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Is the punishment of the ungodly? Limited in its time time span so that the the punishment is a finite punishment which assumes a
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Cessation of sin in other words vast majority of people just in the way they think about the subject of punishment
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Automatically assume that at the cessation of physical life Somehow we become neutral we stop sinning and yet from my perspective the only way anyone can stop sinning is through an extension of grace and divine power and A changing of their nature and I see no evidence that a rebel sinner
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Simply because their heart stops beating that on a spiritual level That the the the center of sin and rebellion is not in my physical body in that sense
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It's not it's not a function of my corpuscles or anything else It is a spiritual thing
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It is a is the result of a fallen nature that is in love with its own lusts and so on and so forth
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So there has to be some understanding That if the punishment for sin is finite then
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What about the continuing? relevance of the rebellion of The ungodly in Revelation chapter 6 for example you have at the end of the chapter when when
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God's wrath is being Poured out in the in the seals and the bowls and so on so forth
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When God's wrath is coming against the kings and and the powerful people and the little people land everything else.
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What do they do? Do do they repent? Do do they draw back do they say wow we need to have a way of being right with God?
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No, they they call upon the rocks and the hills to fall upon them to hide them
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From the wrath of him who sits upon the throne and the wrath of the Lamb and so Even in the context of knowing that God has in fact extended mercy and grace
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In the Lamb who stands as a slain They do not repent even in the midst of their pain and agony, but only seek a way out from it.
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So What would be the basis in light of that of thinking? that Once someone is under the punishment of God that the result of that is going to be a
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Cessation of sin a desire to do what's right before God repentance or anything else because everything in the
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Bible tells us That's not how man responds instead man responds by blaming
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God and hating him all the more. So I think that What needs to to be developed more as I have certainly thought about this issue is the nature of the punishment and I think we need to Get away from the medieval
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Dante vision of Demons running through Fiery corridors skewering people with pitchforks and things like that the the picture that is given to us by Jesus is of a very lonely existence of a
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Outer darkness not not people sitting around having a good time together or anything like that There is a air is a darkness and a weeping of net and gnashing of teeth there's nothing about God having to Extend energy to torment people because as far as I can see the nature of the punishment
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That is experienced is due to the fact that you have an image bearer of God that hates anything that testifies of God's existence and so Once you're put in a place where there's no longer any way that you can even express that rebellion and hatred of God outside of self -destructiveness
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I Think that's what the nature of the punishment is is it's it's internal It's not something that comes from the outside.
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It is it is the full removal of restraint and the Self -destructiveness that comes from that now someone might argue
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Well, if that's the case there were two if since we're finite beings There would eventually be an end to our own self -destruction
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And I I you know, I hear that I understand that kind of of mindset but at the same time,
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I don't know how you would be able to defend the idea of the necessity of the fulfillment of God's holy nature in the punishment of that continuing rebellion if there is
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No end to that rebellion It may be limited as to how it can be expressed but I've never had anyone explain how you get around that problem that At least from an understanding of the necessity of the fulfillment of God's justice at that point again, most people have not struggled with these issues
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I Certainly understand Why?
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people want to not affirm the eternal punishment of the wicked
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Mainly because I think I think a lot of it has to do with how it's presented. I Mean in most people's minds the wicked are these poor innocent individual not innocent but individuals who did a certain amount of wrong for a short period of time and a lot of people have pointed out what yeah, but it's it's the you know, the seriousness of the sin in regards to whose honor has been attacked here and and the the
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Insanity of the rebellion of the creature that is so dependent upon God and yet spits in God's way
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I I hear all of that but still you're talking about eternity here and I don't know and nobody else knows
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How time is experienced after after the judgment, I don't know
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If it's any different than how we experience it now, how could that even be expressed to us? How could that even be explained to us?
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I don't know. Yeah, I have no earthly idea so I Could wish that annihilation ism was true.
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I really could it would it would make a lot of things easier But it seems to me to strike at the very at the very heart of one of the issues that I raise all the time with the
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Muslims and and that is the necessity of the complete fulfillment of God's law and It seems to assume that there there can be a cessation of rebellion and sin on the part of a non redeemed
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Individual I mean you'd have to basically say we stop being human We we have to stop being human and become something else
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Once we die So that you can have that cessation or something like that.
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I again, I fully understand the the desires on the part of individuals to avoid what might be called a
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Well a Dante ish view of a vengeful God who's just enjoying torturing people, but I think if you're really seriously think through what the nature of Punishment would be a lot of those objections go by the wayside.
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The the real question is Why do we have you know the the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever do we have to is there nothing there at all that that indicates that this is a true indication of God's wrath against sin and the nature of the is there by being punished
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It's not just a bowl or a goat or something like that. It's one that actually bears the nature
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Is that not there those are some of the issues I think we have to think through so I Realize a lot of churches have that in in their confessions of faith solely by tradition and Not because of any meaningful conviction or having really
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Delved into it and thought about it. And I think it's something that has to be thought of very carefully
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I Am concerned to be honest with you. You mentioned, you know, you're coming out of a group that isn't known for its
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Its Orthodoxy over history I mean I was I was one of the first people to speak At the worldwide
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Church of God after the big change back in the 90s I was one of the first people to lecture on the Trinity in a large congregation on Long Island so I was willing to Walk right in there and say if you want to know about the
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Trinity, let me teach you about the Trinity So no one can can you know throw some stones at me about that, but at the same time the vast majority of theologically
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Oriented annihilationists have had other issues. Shall we say when it comes to theology and You know,
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I asked the question why is that and That concerns me as well that I've seen people go that direction and then they they get wonky in other areas as well so It's but but I'm not hopefully you're hearing that I'm I don't have just a knee -jerk reaction about it
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I'm not I'm not gonna shoot somebody in the head that that struggles with it It concerns me and I'm not convinced by the argumentation that I've heard thus far but at the same time
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I think most people who hold to Confessional positions on it rarely know why and have rarely thought through the reasons
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Why they just go to certain certain texts and go. Oh, well, there it is and go on from there without really
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Seriously thinking through what some of the issues really are. So I don't know if any of that helps you at all or not
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Well, I just want to tell you as far as my theology goes at this point I'm pretty well reformed and as far as I know,
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I don't hold any other weird doctrines besides Annihilationism and with me it's more
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Matt. It's not a matter of emotions It's more that I see the language in scripture that seems to indicate
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Finality and I can't get past that but I can also see the points on both sides
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I can see the Lazarus and the rich man parable as well as the References you made in Revelation.
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So it isn't like I'm choosing To or that my emotions are affecting this at all.
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I'm totally sola scriptura So that's where I am with this.
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I also know that John thought Apparently believed in annihilationism.
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So well, yeah Yeah, what I understand. Yeah, he did and I would
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I would assume that probably a majority of What calls itself
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New Testament scholarship today? does actually believe in annihilationism, but that's not so much because of The weight of the argument as a dislike of the alternative and for a lot of people in the
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Academy, it's Just a it's it smacks too much of fundamentalism so it's it's sort of like the vast majority of New Testament scholars would never believe in the doctrine of inerrancy either because It's not gonna it's not gonna fly within that context.
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So Yeah, I would say a majority are actually in that position but I I don't think that that carries a lot of weight because there's all sorts of other things that there
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Would be very hesitant to affirm that I would have to affirm as a central doctrine of the faith
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That that they're much more concerned about how they would do that and still fit in so yeah, but he did and There are there are others
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Philip Edgecombe Hughes is another one that was Conditionalist or annihilationist as well and yet his commentary on Hebrews is great.
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So I'm not I'm not prepared to send someone
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Ironically to the fires of hell If they have a problem with this particular issue, I'm just not convinced of it.
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And I I think it it's normally part of a Complex of other issues that frequently point us to some other problems that might exist
44:58
Yeah, also one quick question as far as your Q &A book on Islam, I noticed that it's been put back
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Apparently, but so can you tell me when that's going to be available? Also if you had to pick one
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Commentary set with pillar be a good one for New Testament, and that's all Yeah pillars got some good stuff look when you're talking about any commentary set that is multiple authored
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You get what you pay for and that's one of the problems in buying them as a set You know the word biblical commentary.
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There are certain volumes that are really good There are others that are in my opinion barely doorstop level stuff and so You know
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It's really a function of the individual authors more than it is a
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Commentary series itself because I've seen commentaries with just a wildly varied quality of Authors in the same commentary set so that's that's the problem with that So for example, the pillar commentary on James is fine
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But I don't know if you know that doesn't necessarily mean that first Thessalonians is gonna be fine I don't know who did first Thessalonians.
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So I'm not I don't know but that's that's something to keep in mind Yeah, my apologies to everybody on You know
46:19
Shabir and I just don't seem to be on the same calendar page and I'm Finding it extremely difficult to make progress
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Partly, I think if the chapters were longer it would be easier for me, but they're they're all Based on you know a limited number of words.
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So you have to be so Very focused and and put so much effort into how you're expressing stuff and You know, you can all put the blame on me
46:53
Actually, I'm the one that's that's pushed Shabir as fast as we have gone but you can put the blame on me because if I was if I was less busy
47:01
I would be able to be Goating him along better, but we both know that we've got to get it done soon
47:08
And it's not that it's that much work. It's just that it it's that much difficult work to to do that kind of very focused presentation, so My apologies, but we're working on it.
47:24
Okay? Yeah, I appreciate your time James. Okay. All right. Thank you
47:30
All right. Bye. Bye. All right, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one while the hour is going by let's talk with Manuel hi
47:40
Manuel Hi, Dr. White, how you doing? Oh, not too bad Good Hey, I got a question.
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I usually get a knee -jerk reaction from a lot of different people I thought I'd ask you about because I've never heard from us
47:55
Well, maybe I have I don't know for sure because I've talked to a lot of different people but John 20 and 23.
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Mm -hmm. Usually when I put that out there, I usually get you're a Catholic So Well, that's because the
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Catholics misuse it a lot, but yeah, it is it is a subject that there isn't a lot of discussion of For that very reason well,
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I wanted to get your you know your view on it because I would really like to know how what you feel about that passage or what
48:30
Because I've never really heard it from a reformed perspective. Well There's there's actually a couple of texts that say similar things toward the end of the synoptic
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Gospels as well so I take them all together that That what's being referred to here is it cannot be
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We'll put aside the what it can't be. It cannot be the concept of a priesthood any kind of sacramental
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Forgiveness system that that is utterly unknown to the early church utterly unknown to the apostolic writers all the rest that kind of stuff the only way you can come up with something like that is if you throw the sufficiency of Scripture out and adopt some kind of Oral tradition concept like Rome does so on and so forth
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But my understanding of John 20 and the text in Luke where Jesus breathes upon The disciples well that he breathes upon him here as well
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The where he uses the terminology of binding and loosing In I think it's what
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Matthew and Luke I think are the two just off top my head. I'm not looking at it right now, but my understanding is this has to do with the proclamation of the gospel, which is the focus of the majority of what
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Jesus says to the disciples Very briefly in these post -resurrection appearances and specifically
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In the proclamation of the gospel. We are proclaiming the forgiveness of sins and if anyone accepts and believes
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In that gospel they receive the forgiveness of sins but at the same time if we proclaim the gospel to someone and they reject that gospel then it is
50:21
Necessary to Explain to them. They will not have forgiveness and their sins to use the terminology that is used here
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Their sins are retained their sins Stay with them.
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Oh, I think is the term that's used here There is no forgiveness when there is not an acceptance of the gospel
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And I think it's also important to note that this also marks a fundamental Dividing line in the sense that now that you have the resurrection of the
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Messiah That to be right with God requires you to come to him on the grounds that he himself has
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Laid out in Jesus Christ that you can't have multiple ways You can't have well, you know, the sacrificial system is still fine over here but you know and then you've got the
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Christian system over here and No There is there's one way of forgiveness of sins and that is to the proclamation of the gospel belief in the gospel
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Rejection of that will mean that those sins will not be forgiven They will be retained to use the term of John 20 23 so I see all of them in in light of the power and the newness in the sense of the proclamation of the gospel the resurrection of Christ and the fact that this is the
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Only way that one can have forgiveness of sins is through that proclamation of the gospel So I think that's pretty much the
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Reformed Understanding certainly. I think that's that goes pretty much in line with with Calvin's interpretation of it.
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Anyways There might be some others that have a little higher church view maybe but I think it all has to do with the gospel
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Okay, so you're when you say proclamation you're saying preaching the gospel. Yes. Uh -huh
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Okay. All right, would you I'm gonna ask you another question You know, I'm one that you know,
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I'm the one that's Pentecostal. No, really No, yeah,
52:28
I thought you're an Episcopalian man. That would have changed everything Would you say you know what we believe about baptism
52:38
Mm -hmm, if you would you say that that would you call me a baptismal regenerationist?
52:46
I Well in the sense that you make it necessary and it becomes the means
52:57
I've not really talked a lot with oneness folks about their understanding of Regeneration I think there would be some because I don't
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I don't think you hold to talk to Total depravity in the sense that I do so I'm not really certain
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Where the differences would lie between us as to our understanding of what regeneration actually accomplishes
53:26
And I don't think that's come up in any of the well just a couple of debates that I've that I've done
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So, I don't know that it's the I'm not sure that would be the terminology that I would use but certainly within that realm that there
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Is a human action Synergistically that brings about regeneration then yeah, sure, but I'm not sure that it's certainly not
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I don't think it'd be the same thing as say the Roman Catholic understanding of that. For example, I see a difference there
53:56
Yeah, it's not it's not the same thing as the Roman Catholic understand and I actually
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I don't believe it's possible for a one That's going to costably to be a baptismal regenerationist
54:08
Yeah, so, you know, why is that I just what's that why is that Because we we believe in calling the name
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Jesus over the person being baptized and that's the most important part of Baptism in because the first Corinthians 611 says he talks about all
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Paul talks about all these sins and such for some of you But you're washed that you're sanctified, but you're justified in the name of the
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Lord Jesus and by the Spirit We take that literally we literally, you know, that's 2216 having the name invoked
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You know, we take that stuff literally actually 38 Repentant be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ or the remission of your sins
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We believe it's the name that remits the sin and water baptism not Water baptism.
54:56
So you believe that what's in first? So you believe what's in 1st Corinthians 6 is a reference to baptism
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Yes, I actually do believe it is the reference to baptism so everything is done there including sanctification
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Yes, it says that you're washed you're sanctified You're justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the
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Spirit of our God that actually confirms Acts 2 38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the
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Holy Ghost We can't be baptismal regenerationist because we believe Reception of the
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Holy Ghost is different from belief. I Mean it's tied all together
55:38
But it doesn't happen at belief because Paul in Acts chapter 19 verse 2 he has disciples with John whom he didn't know who they were he said
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Have you? Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believe so that that very question lets me know that By not saying have you received
55:59
Jesus as your personal Savior that No, you do not automatically receive the
56:05
Spirit upon belief or Paul wouldn't ask the question Yeah we'll see where I would differ with you is those those were those were disciples of John and and There's obviously a translational issue as to how you translate the participle there and their answer just simply indicated to Paul that they had
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Not yet heard the gospel. That was that was the issue there I think extending that out from there is is an area of of great disagreement between us
56:29
But I find that interesting and man, I've got to get to one more before we get done with the program So appreciate your phone call.
56:35
I hope that was useful to you. Let's talk to real quick Reginald. Hi Reginald. Hey, how you doing?
56:41
Good Go ahead I have a question about how to engage with our younger audience of Christian Youth with the changes in law and things like that how we're kind of going into a nether nature of really combat with sin not technically people technically, but How do we do that?
57:07
Because I'm I'm seeing a more unprepared youth. Oh, yeah. Well, that's because the adults
57:15
Well, there's last sermons I could start here I don't have time for them I we've actually got to wrap up when pretty much on time tonight, but We have we have far too long been isolating our youth from the mature adults
57:32
Putting them off in a little ghetto by themselves entertaining them That day is gone
57:38
We must call our young people to maturity long before the culture around them matures
57:46
And I personally think that they respond extremely well to that I certainly did as a young person when
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I was called to Grow up and be what I needed to be I responded to that and we need to say to to our young people
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There is a calling of God upon your life. It gives meaning and purpose to your life It will have to it will require you to to love him more than you love the world
58:09
You're going to suffer as a result But this is why he's placed you here and this is his calling upon your life
58:16
And this is what discipleship is all about take up your cross join the death march and that's going to be
58:24
Absolutely a daily experience for all of us, but especially for young people the days of entertaining kids and and Letting them look like the world think like the world act like the world and spread a little
58:38
Jesus on them are long gone Long gone The the churches that have filled themselves
58:46
With that kind of stuff will be the churches that are giving in right and left Are you bowing the knee to Caesar over the next couple of months literally we had a questioning?
58:57
Kind of a session in our youth group and one of the questions came up How do you evangelize someone who believes like they're a
59:05
Mormon or something? Maybe or they're involved in Islam and I'd answer them
59:10
Well, you have to first know very well what you believe and you'd be surprised how many? Young people.
59:17
I mean they have a very Very thin ideal of what the gospel is.
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I know I know and We have not put them in good stead by allowing that to happen
59:28
We need to call them to a higher level not to a lower level. It is not a it is a matter of Helping them to realize that this is life and death.
59:38
This is what they're being called to and it's vitally important Hey Reginald, we're out of time. Thank you very much for your phone call today as much more we could say on that Next week.
59:47
Thank you very much to John Sampson in anticipation of coming in I appreciate it and Well, I may need to do something from up there just simply because I mean want to be able to say something other than just A screen flow video on what happens
01:00:04
In the almost inevitable profaning of marriage in our land, but we'll see Remember strangers and pilgrims strangers and pilgrims.