WWUTT 1100 Q&A Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, the Romans and the Ark, Coniah and Jesus Genealogy?

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Who are Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? When the Romans took the Ark of God, why didn't they die?

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And if Keniah was childless, how is he in Jesus' genealogy? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast that we may meditate on the word of Christ, careful to do according to all that is written in it.

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Visit our website at www .wtt .com. Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you,

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Becky. You're welcome. This being the Friday edition of the broadcast, we take questions from the listeners and you can send your questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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And we're looking specifically for Christmas -themed questions. Are we now? Because next week's going to be our

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Christmas episode. Oh, yeah. Wow, so soon? Yep, that's it. Because it's the Friday before Christmas.

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Okay. Then the next Friday will be the last Friday of the year, December 27th.

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Right. And during that week, we want to do kind of a year in review. So we're going to go over like some of the biggest

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Christian headlines over the year. Oh, and next week, I'm having dental surgery done.

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Yeah, that should be fun. Looking forward to that. So if you can get those Christmas -themed questions to us by the weekend.

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That would be great. That would be helpful, because I think we're going to record way earlier than usual, since I don't know what condition my mouth is going to be by the time we get around.

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By the weekend? So you mean like tomorrow? Tomorrow, yeah. So like tomorrow, Sunday, Saturday, Sunday, just...

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While you're listening to this, just hop on your email and shoot us an email. Get us an email with a

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Christmas -themed question, if you have one. Yeah. And send it to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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Now, of course, I've got the book, 25 Christmas Myths and What the Bible Says.

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It's not too late to order that book. And in fact, if you get it on Kindle, you're reading it right now.

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Right. Just download it for your Kindle and you've already got it right in front of you, just in time for Christmas.

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25 Christmas Myths and What the Bible Says. I was on Amazon reading some of the reviews.

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I hadn't read a lot of the latest reviews for the book. And there was one person who left a wonderful review, very positive.

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But they added a side note. Okay. And I'm going to read the side note. All right.

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Of this review that was left on Amazon. Side note, corrections to myths are not always easy to explain.

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And Gabe did a great job condensing each myth slash chapter to an average of about eight pages.

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Adolescents to adults will appreciate the information and length. But some of the details and length may test the attention span of younger listeners, especially if you plan to read the chapters aloud and discuss them as a family.

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I would recommend that those with elementary age children try pre -reading the chapters in order to skip some paragraphs and focus on the basic essential points of the chapters while keeping the extra details in the back of your mind in case little ones ask questions requiring that additional information to answer.

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I think that's a pretty fair. Yeah. I usually do that anyway. So, yeah, that's good.

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This year, we've been going through the book with our kids. So, I kind of wanted to push back on the side note a little bit.

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I think that's good advice. But we have an age range of kids.

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I was trying to figure out how to say that. An age range of children. From two years old.

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Two to 11. 11. Yeah. So, we're still going to read the book that our 11 and 8 -year -old can understand it.

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The 5 and 2 -year -old are not going to understand certain things even if we dumb down the language.

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Right. To their level. And if we reduce it to a level that they can understand it, well, then we're potentially losing the 11 and 8 -year -old.

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So, we're going to read the material. And this is with any devotional that we do. We're going to read the material on that level that our 11 and 8 -year -old need to understand it at.

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Right. And then we're going to explain those things. And our 5 and 2 -year -old will get some of it, but maybe not all of it.

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Right. But it's exposure. Right. And then we define the bigger words for the 8 and 11 anyway.

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Yeah. We have to define them for them anyway. And so, as they hear it year after year, it becomes...

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They understand it better the next year. Yes. And the next year. And then the next year. And more and more will be understood from it.

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The older that they get. Yes. So, it's better actually to... Well, not even just the older, but the more exposure they get to it.

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Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, we want to read it on the level of our 11 and 8 -year -old.

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Not on the level of our 5 and 2 -year -old. Right. So, this advice, the side note is good if you only have little kids.

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Right. But if you've got a range of children, then you want to be reading it on the level that your older kids...

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Oldest. Yeah, oldest kids... Yes. ...are going to understand it and then explaining it for your youngers if you have to.

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Right. So, that's just kind of pushing back on that side note a little bit. When we do catechism, we still do the big words, teaching our kids what justification means, sanctification means.

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They're so big that even our 2 -year -old can't pronounce them. Right. But like Becky said, the more we do them, the more ingrained it becomes.

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As they get older, they understand it better because you didn't try to dumb down the language to their level.

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You gave it to them exactly as we read it in the Bible. Now, granted, when our 2 -year -old is learning verses, when she's memorizing verses, like John 17, 17, for example,

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Jesus says, sanctify them in your truth, your word is truth. And when our 2 -year -old is learning that verse, when she's memorizing it, she'll say,

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John 17, 17, your word is truth. Right. So, that's as much as she gets.

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So, in the memorization type of stuff, we'll give her the least amount that she needs so that she can recite it.

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And she feels like she's accomplished something on top of that. But when it comes to doing the catechism questions together, again, reading the devotional books that we do, or even when

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I'm going through the text and I'm reading word for word to my kids, we're putting it on the level that our oldest kids understand it.

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And again, it's that repetition that even the youngest kids are eventually going to understand it as they get older. And as you ask the questions,

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I would start with the youngest and then work your way up to the oldest. So, that way the oldest can't answer like how the youngest did.

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They understand at that point that, oh, I'm older, so I'm expected to answer that better.

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Give a more mature answer. Yes. Right. Yes. Now, are you talking like the questions for reflection at the end of each chapter in the book?

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Okay. Because I'd also mentioned catechism, which is question and answer. Yeah, I jumped ship and went back.

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Okay. I've had a lot of coffee today. Jumped off of one trail and hopped on another.

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Yep. So, you just have to kind of bear with me and Gabe, if you could fill in the blanks, that'd be awesome.

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But thanks for that review. That was still wonderful. Yeah. And if you have read the book, if you're not a kind of a person that likes to write a review, don't worry about that.

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But if you could at least click a star, you know, well, five stars would be preferable. I was going to say more than one. Yeah, more than one.

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Preferably five stars. But click the stars up there. Whatever you feel is valued.

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Not what you feel. We're not about feelings, about facts. So, this book is factually five stars.

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How much did you get out of it? This next question or this next comment actually comes from somebody who is reading the book, sent us an email.

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This is from Colby. From Colby, Kansas or Colby? No, Colby the person.

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Not Colby the computer. Colby the person. You don't know Colby the computer?

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I don't remember. Oh, oh my goodness. I wonder if I can bring something up here before we get to the end of the broadcast.

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I'll play something for you from Colby the computer. All right, Pastor Gabe, I wanted to take the time to thank you and offer as much encouragement as I can.

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First of all, my wife and I have been enjoying the process of reading your book as a family devotional this

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Christmas season. We have been edified in the process of reading the fruit of your labor.

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My wife, Rayan, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And I would also like to thank you for the

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What Podcasts. We oftentimes listen to them together as a family when we are in the car and especially when we are driving to church on Sundays and Wednesdays for Awana.

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Please know that Rayan and I are eternally grateful to the Lord for you. May he continue to strengthen you in all your endeavors to glorify him.

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So thank you for that message, Colby. We actually went to Southwest Kansas on Wednesday and I spoke at my youth group, the youth group that I attended when

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I was in high school over 20 years ago. Right. And I spoke to that group of teens, of course, not the same teens that I went to youth group with.

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Thankfully, that'd be interesting water. None of them were even alive when I was attending youth group there.

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Yeah. Some of them have failed a few grades if they're still in youth group all these years later.

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But I covered some Christmas myths. That was what I talked about. And there was a student that came up to me afterward.

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He introduced himself, said he was 17 years old and he had actually moved to Kansas from Georgia. And when he was in Georgia, he attended a

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Christian camp. And every morning at camp, they listened to the what podcast.

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Oh, that's awesome. I was like, whoa, small world. That's pretty awesome. But he said,

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I was always I'd listen to you teach through the Bible and think to myself, I wonder what this guy looks like.

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Oh, that's what he said. Yeah. And I said, I hope I didn't disappoint. And he said, I pictured you taller. Well, you're not short.

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No, I'm six foot. Yeah. But I think everything, you know, whether you're watching a movie or a TV show or listening to the radio, everything's larger than life.

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True. So you always think of them, you know, being larger than they are. I remember when. Now, Vody, on the other hand.

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Now, Vody is. Yeah, however, however, you're picturing Vody, he's taller. Yes. And bigger.

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And bigger. And so soft spoken. Oh, yeah. Big teddy bear of a guy. Yeah. But yeah, love

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Vody. If you have a chance to meet him, definitely take that opportunity. Yeah. Go shake his hand.

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Don't be too intimidated. Although you probably have reason to be, but very friendly guy.

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All right. Next question. This one comes from Tim. He says, Pastor Gabe, so earlier this year, you would open up comments on the what videos.

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He's talking about our YouTube channel. Okay. But it seems as if the comments have been deactivated again.

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What gives? I think I know the reason, but I didn't want to speculate. Yeah. Our comment experiment has come to an end.

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Yes. And it wasn't. It didn't go well. No, it was what we thought it would be.

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Yeah. So. And here's the thing. I actually open it. Here's the reason why I opened up comments.

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Go ahead. Because someone had told me that the comment section really just feeds the YouTube algorithm.

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And so they might take even from things that are said in the comments to they might use that information to recommend the video or put it in somebody's recommended feed or something like that.

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Right. And so it was said to me, you might try unlocking the comments or allowing people to write comments on there again, because it could increase your number of views.

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The reality of the situation was our views decreased a lot when

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I opened up the comments. I mean, like our viewership dropped almost by half. Wow. It was a crazy fall.

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Now, given I'm not making as many videos right now because we've just had a ridiculously busy year used to be

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I was doing one a week. Now I'm doing like one or two a month. Right. But opening up the comments did not increase our viewership.

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And in fact, the first video that I did where I deactivated the comments again, the number of views went way up.

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So there aren't any open comments anymore on any of those videos, not the ones that are the 90 second videos anyway.

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Okay. Now, the response videos that I do, those comments are still open. The EXT. Yeah, the

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EXT. So W -W -U -T -T -E -X -T. All of those videos are still a comment section there.

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And of course, when they get posted on Facebook, you can leave comments there as well. Right. But I have deactivated the comments for the remainder of any 90 second videos that will be posted.

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Just the content, the comments, some of the things that end up in there can be pretty bad.

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Yeah. We'll just put it that way. And as we're creating videos that I want to be. It was not edifying to the

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Lord at all. Yeah, it wasn't. And I think that most people are really kind of discouraged to look in the comment section and see some of the comments that get left.

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Yep. And sometimes I can't always control like the top comment that is seen on the top of that.

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I can set it up so that it's the comments appear in order in which they are given. But it's still sometimes difficult to police that.

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And so we don't have time to go through all those comments and check and see that all of them are all right.

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And it also prevents people from watching the entire video. Yeah, that's true.

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We'll have people that will comment. Scroll down and see all the comments about it. Yeah. Instead of watching it for 90 seconds.

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Yeah, they've even got in their mind. They're like, I already know what I want to say to this and I'm not going to watch your video. Yeah, definitely.

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And so we can tell and we can tell that by the comment. You did not even watch this video. You just had a response to the title of it.

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Kind of like your reviews of your book. Some of. Oh, yeah. Some of it. Yeah. You clearly didn't read the book.

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So that's the reason, Tim. But thank you for asking. Yeah, the comments will remain deactivated for here on out.

14:29

This next question comes from Joseph. Hi, Pastor Gabe and Becky. My name is Joseph and I love listening to your videos and regularly listen to your podcast and Q &A sessions.

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Our son's middle name is Joseph. Yes, it is. Zachary Joseph. I just had a question for you as a possible

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Q &A topic or what video and would love to hear your consideration. I was wondering what you think about the local church movement or the church created by Watchman Knee slash

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Witness Lee and what you thought of their theology as I hear a lot of mixed opinions on their theology and had run ins with them in the past and have found their theology as far as I've seen as a bizarre mix of weird teachings and non -reformed theology at best and incredibly erroneous at worst.

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I do understand that for the most part, they are labeled a cult of sorts, with exceptions from theologically liberal seminaries like Fuller, as well as some organizations like CRI, which stands for the

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Christian Research Institute. That's Hank Hanegraaff's ministry, the Bible Answer Man. Gotcha. Which at times only seems to add to the confusion that there are some of these ministries out there that endorse

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Watchman Knee and Witness Lee. I hope regardless that you both are having a great day when reading this and I look forward to hearing what you both think about this subject.

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I apologize for my horrible grammar in writing this email. Sincerely, Joseph. Well, appreciate your email,

15:58

Joseph, and we're doing well. Yeah, we are. Doing pretty good. Yeah. Good health. Yep. Got back from a nice trip.

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Yeah, safe travels. Yeah, our kids travel really well. They do, they really do.

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We are spoiled. Yeah, all four of them do. They all travel well. We stopped at Chick -fil -A.

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Twice. Twice, on the way there and then on the way back. Yep. We still eat Chick -fil -A, even though they threw all their

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Christian base under the bus. So back to his question. We won't go on that tangent again.

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About Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Now, to be honest with you, Joseph, this is not something

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I know a whole lot about. I don't know that I've ever met anyone from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's influence.

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But basically, just kind of giving you the Cliff Notes version of it. I was going to say, I'm not familiar with them at all. Okay, so Watchman Nee, back in the early 20th century, he was a

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Christian teacher in China and he initiated church meetings that later became known as the local church movement.

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He published several books expounding on scripture. And it's some of the things that he's written in some of these books, it becomes evident that he did not have a whole lot of Orthodox Bible training.

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And so sometimes he will say some things in his teachings that really, it's almost like you could quote

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Nee saying something borderline heretical, but then you could also quote

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Nee saying something that's borderline Orthodox. So it's like, it goes back and forth. And it's really, honestly, his stuff is rather confusing.

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I have not read a lot, but just talking with people that I know who've done more study into Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

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So, and this is why you find such, just kind of like a smattering of people who support them.

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And then you find another smattering of people who say, no, the local church movement is a cult.

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It's because you find so much varying stuff that came from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's teachings.

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You find stuff that was very much on, like I said, stuff that you would never, ever allow anybody to teach in your

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Sunday school class. But then like the very next sentence, he might say something that's exactly the opposite of what he just wrote.

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Oh, okay. So that's why there's - Yeah, that's why there's so much criticism of these two guys.

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Watchman Lee was appointed by Witness Nee. Oh, okay. So - I was gonna ask where he comes in.

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Yeah, so then he was the guy that came after Watchman Nee. And I get them mixed up all the time. So if I say

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Watchman Lee, forgive me. But so there was a local church movement that started up in China.

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And my understanding is many people did come to Christ as a result of these two men. Watchman Nee died in prison because he would not renounce his faith.

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So he became a martyr for the Christian faith. Watchman, or sorry,

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Witness Lee. So see, now I'm still bouncing back and forth between these guys. Witness Lee was born into the

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Southern Baptist denomination, if I remember right. I think his parents were even Southern Baptists when he was born.

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So he was raised a Baptist. But then as a disciple of Watchman Nee came into the local church movement and then continued

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Watchman Nee's teachings after he died. Okay. And so the local church movement continued to grow out of all that.

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I am pretty sure I'm getting all these facts right. That's just kind of, again, the Cliff Notes version of what's known as the local church movement.

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Because it's so all over the place, I can't recommend it. That's why

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I've kind of dismissed it as something that I've never really looked a whole lot into. First of all, because I've never encountered anybody that said that they've been influenced by these men's teachings.

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And on top of that, when I have talked with people who have studied into this, they say it's just all over the place.

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He'll say one thing that sounds like heresy, and then he'll say something else that sounds like orthodoxy. I don't understand how that would allow anybody to follow them if they're constantly contradicting themselves.

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Well, I have to wonder if maybe in Chinese, it means something else.

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Okay, maybe. Like maybe in the way that he had. Yeah, something like that.

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Okay. Maybe in the way that he had to communicate with the Chinese, he might say something that would be heretical, and then he would say the truth.

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Okay. And to somebody who lived in China, that would be, okay, he's addressing the false statement, and now he's presenting the true statement.

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Okay. I don't know. I'm just kind of throwing that out there as a possibility as to why he said so many things that were conflicting.

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Okay. Maybe it was just communicated different to people in China, then we might communicate those things in English.

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Yeah. That could be the reason why. But again, I never really encounter anybody influenced by these men's teachings.

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So I don't do that much study into it. And because it's so all over the place, I don't really recommend it as reading.

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I don't think there's any reason for us, unless you find information that would indicate otherwise.

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I don't think there's a reason for us to dismiss either of these men as heretics or that Watchman Nee didn't actually die for the gospel.

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I don't think there's a reason for us to have to draw that conclusion. Unless you do more research into it than I have, and you come to a different conclusion than that.

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I don't understand why CRI endorses it, just on the limited knowledge I know about it.

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It doesn't sound like it's anything that should be endorsed. But you also have to consider Hank Hanegraaff is

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Greek Orthodox. Yeah. So I wouldn't recommend CRI's resources anymore, unfortunately.

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There used to be a time I really did. Yep. That's right. There were things that I disagreed on regarding some of the stuff that Hank Hanegraaff would teach, but it was still great

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Christian resources. And James White had even written some articles for CRI in the past.

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And you can still find some of his articles through their website. I referenced some of their stuff when I wrote my book, 40

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Mormon Beliefs and What the Bible Says. Yeah. Some of my citations come from the Christian Research Institute.

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But because of the direction that Hank Hanegraaff has gone in the last couple of years becoming Greek Orthodox, I can't recommend their teachings anymore.

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Yeah. Because Greek Orthodoxy is heterodoxy. And they teach salvation by faith and works.

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Yeah. So anyway, but thank you for your question, Joseph, and what limited info I was able to give you. I hope that that shed some light on that.

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And we hope you're having a great day too. Yeah. You also have a great day and safe travels if you're on the road.

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This next one comes from Britt in Guthrie, Oklahoma. He says, I have two questions. What happened to the relics that were in the temple when

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Rome destroyed it? Second question, if the Ark was in it, why didn't the

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Romans die like Uzzah did in 2 Samuel 6, 6 through 11? Well, before you had the story of Uzzah and the

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Ark, you had the story of the Philistines and the Ark. Oh, yeah. Because remember, the

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Philistines had seized the Ark and had taken it, just like the Romans eventually did.

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So what happened to the Philistines when they took the Ark? This is 1 Samuel 5.

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I'm going to go ahead and read the whole chapter here. So when the Philistines captured the Ark of God, they brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod.

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Then the Philistines took the Ark of God and brought it into the house of Dagon and set it up beside Dagon.

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This was their false god. Okay, yeah. Their fish god with human hands. Right. And when the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, behold,

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Dagon had fallen face downward on the ground before the Ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and put him back in his place.

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But when they rose early on the next morning, behold, Dagon had fallen face downward on the ground before the

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Ark of the Lord. And the head of Dagon and both of his hands were lying cut off on the threshold.

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Only the trunk of Dagon was left to him. This is why the priests of Dagon and all who enter the house of Dagon do not tread on the threshold of Dagon and Ashdod to this day.

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The hand of the Lord was heavy against the people of Ashdod and he terrified and afflicted them with tumors, both

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Ashdod and its territory. And when the men of Ashdod saw how things were, they said, the

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Ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us, for his hand is hard against us and against Dagon our

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God. So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines and said, what shall we do with the

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Ark of the God of Israel? They answered, let the Ark of the God of Israel be brought around to Gath.

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So they brought the Ark of the God of Israel there. But after they had brought it around, the hand of the

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Lord was against the city, causing a very great panic. And he afflicted the men of the city, both young and old, so that the tumors broke out on them.

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But they sent the Ark of God to Ekron. But as soon as the Ark of God came to Ekron, the people of Ekron cried out, they have brought around to us the

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Ark of the God of Israel to kill us and our people. Obviously, the reputation of the

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Ark of God was getting to the cities before the Ark of God got there. They sent therefore and gathered together all the lords of the

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Philistines and said, send away the Ark of the God of Israel and let it return to its own place, that it may not kill us and our people.

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For there was a deathly panic throughout the whole city. The hand of God was very heavy there.

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The men who did not die were struck with tumors, and the cry of the city went up to heaven. So what did they end up doing with the

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Ark of God? They put it on a cart that was drawn by two oxen, and they just sent it off.

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Like, there you go. Go in the direction that's somewhere else from us and take this deadly thing.

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If God can give us tumors and kill our men, then he can get himself home. So that's how they returned the

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Ark. They were like, we don't want this anymore. Let it be gone from us. So that's what happened to the

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Philistines when they had the Ark. Why did the same thing not happen to the Romans?

26:22

Well, okay. So wait, tell Ezra next. Okay. So the story of Ezra in 2

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Samuel 6. So this is the way the Philistines returned the Ark of God to the

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Israelites. Then when David was bringing the Ark of God to Jerusalem, he had this cart made up for it.

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Right. This was actually just like the way the Philistines returned the Ark of God.

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On a cart. And I'm sure it was prettier because he was a king.

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Yeah, right. David's thinking, I'm gonna do this right. Right. The Philistines didn't do it right. Right. But we're gonna do it right.

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So he makes up a cart. And in 2 Samuel 6, starting in verse 5, which

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Brit was referencing here, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the

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Lord with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the

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Ark of God and took a hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the

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Lord was kindled against Uzzah. And God struck him down there because of his error. And he died there beside the

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Ark of God. And David was angry because the Lord had broken out against Uzzah. And that place is called

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Perez -Uzzah to this day. And David was afraid of the Lord that day. And he said, how can the

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Ark of the Lord come to me? So David was not willing to take the Ark of the Lord into the city of David.

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But David took it aside to the house of Obed -Edom, the Gittite. And the Ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed -Edom, the

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Gittite, three months. And the Lord blessed Obed -Edom and all of his household. Why was it that these things happened?

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We know why it happened to the Philistines. Right. Why did it happen to David and to Uzzah?

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That Uzzah would be struck down because he reached out and touched the Ark of God. Because the Lord God said, you shall not touch the

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Ark or you would be struck down dead. And the Lord kept his promise. Yes, he did. He kept his word.

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David thought that he could worship God in a way different than what God had called for as worship.

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And God had already given instructions as to how the Ark of God was supposed to be transported. It was supposed to use the poles.

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He even gave exact measurements of how long these poles were supposed to be and who was supposed to carry these poles and how far away the

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Israelite army was supposed to be from the Ark of God. Right. As it went before them.

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And David didn't follow those instructions. He thought that he could do better than the Philistines by making his own cart and bringing the

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Ark of God into the place of God that way. And the Lord did not honor that because David did not keep the word of God.

29:10

Right. We are not allowed to worship the way that we want to worship. It was interesting to have that dawn on me of, you know,

29:20

I want to worship God. How do I worship God the best? You know, like, oh, I'm very talented in this way and this way.

29:26

But the Bible clearly tells us. How God is to be worshiped. Yes. We have to worship him according to how

29:32

God has said he is to be worshiped, not how we want to worship him. Otherwise we're disobeying. Right. So, yeah.

29:39

Just it's interesting. And it doesn't matter how intense and how

29:44

Deep felt. Yeah. How sincere you are. Yeah. When you worship. If it is not the way that God has said he is to be worshiped, then it's in vain.

29:54

Right. You're doing it for yourself and you're not doing it for the Lord. Right. Because if you were doing it for the

29:59

Lord, you'd be doing it right. That's right. You'd be obeying his word. So anyway, that's kind of a different subject than what

30:07

Britt is asking about here. So now to the Romans. To the root of the question here.

30:12

Yeah. So if the Ark was in Jerusalem when it was destroyed, why didn't the

30:17

Romans die like Uzzah or likewise, like the Philistines? And here's the first.

30:23

Your first question was what happened to the relics that were in the temple when Rome destroyed it? Well, the Romans just took them. Yeah. They seized them.

30:30

They melted them down if they were gold, and that would have included the Ark of God. So by the way, there's like this quest right now to find the

30:37

Ark of God. You won't find it. It's been destroyed. Yeah. The Romans took it. They melted it down. They turned it into their own currency.

30:43

I mean, whatever happened to it, it's just not around anymore. So I'm sorry, folks. We're not going to end up with a story that's like Indiana Jones and the

30:51

Raiders of the Lost Ark. Because the reason and also the reason why the

30:56

Romans didn't die like that is because God did not dwell in the Ark anymore. Right.

31:02

Remember that when Jesus died on the cross, the Gospel of Matthew records that the temple or the curtain in the temple that separated the

31:11

Holy of Holies tore from top to bottom. And that was signifying that God no longer dwelled there.

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He did not dwell in temples made by human hands. The Apostle Paul makes that point clear in Acts 17.

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Rather, God dwells in his people. So he was no longer going to be separated from us in the

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Holy of Holies. And you could only go into the presence of God once a year. And it was only going to be the high priest that did it when he made atonement for the sins of the people.

31:40

Right. Atonement had been done. Christ is our atoning sacrifice. Amen. And by what he accomplished on the cross for us, no longer was it a once a year thing through the high priest that we were able to enter the place of God.

31:54

Now, all of us could have fellowship with God. And he dwells within us. Right.

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Through his Holy Spirit that has been poured into the hearts of everyone who believes in Christ and follows him.

32:04

So as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 6, we are the temple of the living God. So the ark was empty.

32:12

So the ark was, yeah, the presence of God was no longer there on the ark. So therefore, touching it wasn't going to kill anybody since God's presence was not there anymore and was not even in the temple anymore.

32:24

Right. And all of this thing that happened with the Romans coming into Jerusalem and destroying the temple and seizing its goods and all this kind of thing,

32:32

Christ had foretold all of this. This is his Olivet Discourse in Matthew chapter 24.

32:38

Yeah. Explaining exactly what was going to happen and it did happen in 70 AD, the destruction of the temple.

32:44

And by the way, Judaism as we knew it, according to what is given to us in the

32:50

Bible, changed after the destruction of the temple. Oh, yeah. It went from being temple Judaism to rabbinic

32:56

Judaism. And that's... Rabbinic? Yeah, rabbinic like rabbi. Oh, right, right, right. Taught by rabbis rather than centering around the temple and temple practices.

33:07

Gotcha. So, Judaism that we have today is totally different than Judaism in the

33:13

Old Testament or even at the time of Christ. It's a completely different system of Judaism. So, when you...

33:19

Yeah, because I was equating those. Yeah, not at all the same. Okay, interesting. And yeah, when you listen to somebody like Ben Shapiro, probably the most famous, at least conservative

33:29

Jew in the country, it's Ben Shapiro. When you listen to him talk about it, he doesn't believe the miracles of the

33:36

Bible. He doesn't even believe the miracles of the Old Testament. Oh, weird. And he certainly doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the

33:42

Messiah. Of course not, because he's Jewish. So... That's interesting. Yeah.

33:47

But the Judaism that he practices, not the Judaism of the Bible. Yeah. It's a completely different thing of Judaism.

33:53

But all of this... It would have to be. Yeah, all of this changed after the destruction of the temple. And even the

34:00

Sanhedrin itself changed. And I explained this when we were going through our study of the book of John.

34:05

John never mentions the Sadducees in his gospel. And the reason is because, the argument that I made, he's writing his gospel after the destruction of the temple in 70

34:17

AD, when the Sadducees did not exist anymore. So, there was never a reason to have to reference the

34:24

Sadducees. They were no longer a sect or a body of the Sanhedrin. It was only the

34:29

Pharisees. Okay. Which... And even the Pharisees had changed after that, preserving some of these

34:35

Jewish practices and ways of life. If it wasn't for what the Pharisees attempted to preserve after the destruction of the temple,

34:42

Judaism would have been completely lost after that. But I would argue that it has been, because the system of Judaism that's followed today is barely even a shadow of what it was during Bible times.

34:55

So, anyway, that's answered your question. Our rabbit trail. Yeah. And a rabbit trail.

35:00

There we go. Anyway, and yes, thank you and Miss Becky for all that you are doing.

35:06

You're welcome. You're welcome. God bless. Next question. This one comes from David, as you can tell, this is a little bit longer question.

35:12

Howdy again. So, we've probably had a question from David before. Hello. Our church reads through the

35:17

Bible together in what we call five by five, five chapters, five days.

35:22

We read through the Bible a chapter a day, Monday through Friday. Then on Sunday, we have a portion of the service where a rotating team of four men come up and lead us in an interactive time of questions and comments about what we read during the week.

35:37

When our men's and ladies groups meet, we also discuss what we have read. With the explanation over, we finished

35:43

Jeremiah and started Matthew this week and discussed Matthew 51 and 52 and Matthew 1, our

35:50

Monday through Wednesday readings at men's group last night. We're actually starting Matthew this coming Sunday. Yes, we are.

35:56

So, David goes on. A couple of differing views were discussed on two topics and I thought I'd get your thoughts on both.

36:02

First, in Jeremiah 51 verses 20 through 23, who is

36:08

God's hammer slash war club? Is it the Babylonians or the Persians? Some commentators say these verses are referring to Babylon.

36:15

Some say Persia. Could it be both? Babylon, quote, had been God's hammer, but now

36:22

Persia, quote, was going to be God's hammer. Okay, let's stop there for now since the email is a little bit longer.

36:28

I'll answer this question first and then we'll go on. All right. So, Jeremiah 51 verses 20 through 23.

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Here's what we read. You are my hammer and weapon of war. With you, I break nations in pieces.

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With you, I destroy kingdoms. With you, I break in pieces the horse and his rider.

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With you, I break in pieces the chariot and the charioteer. With you, I break in pieces man and woman.

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With you, I break in pieces the old man and the youth. With you, I break in pieces the young man and the young woman.

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With you, I break in pieces the shepherd and his flock. With you, I break in pieces the farmer and his team.

37:08

With you, I break in pieces governors and commanders. So, the Lord is speaking to the pagan nation that he is using to bring judgment against Israel because Israel had sinned against God and were worshiping false gods rather than the true

37:25

God. And this continued on and on and on, unrepentant. So, the Lord finally brought a nation against them to judge them because of their wickedness.

37:35

Now, when you get to Habakkuk, Habakkuk is asking God, look, why are you allowing this violence to continue?

37:41

I know that what Israel, what Judah did was really, really bad. But come on, we are not as bad as the

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Babylonians and the Medes and the Persians. These guys are way worse than we are. Right, right. But the

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Lord's response to Habakkuk was, hey, I'm gonna bring judgment upon these nations too. Yeah.

37:58

But right now, I'm using them to purify Israel and then when I'm done with them, judgment will come upon them also.

38:06

Right. But when he's talking through Jeremiah here, the reference to you are my hammer and weapon of war, with you

38:13

I break nations in pieces. Who is he talking about? Is he talking about Babylon or is he talking about Persia?

38:19

Well, go back to the very beginning of Jeremiah 51 and he says, so this is about the judgment that's gonna come against Babylon now.

38:27

Okay. So, Jeremiah 51, thus says the Lord, behold, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer against Babylon, against the inhabitants of Lev -Kamai, and I will send

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Babylon winnowers and they shall winnow her and they shall empty her land when they come against her from every side on the day of trouble.

38:45

So, given that it's talking about judgment that's gonna come against Babylon, it could be that the hammer is

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Persia. About midway through the chapter, it says, the Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the

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Medes because his purpose concerning Babylon is to destroy it for that is the vengeance of the

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Lord, the vengeance for his temple. Verse 12, set up a standard against the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up watchmen, prepare the ambushes for the

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Lord has both planned and done what he spoke concerning the inhabitants of Babylon. So, I would argue that we're talking about the

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Persians here, the Medes and the Persians. So, they would therefore be the hammer and weapon of war that the

39:29

Lord is gonna use to judge the Babylonians. But there's nothing wrong with assuming that what is being talked about here could also be the

39:37

Babylonians since God indeed used them as a hammer. Very true. So, when God uses one nation to judge another nation, they are the hammer in God's hand.

39:47

And that's always gonna be the case. Yeah, just descriptive of how that works.

39:55

Right. So, the Babylonians were God's hammer and then the Medes and the Persians were God's hammer. Okay, so now we go to David's next questions.

40:02

Second, in Matthew 1, we read the genealogy of Jesus, which I'm covering this

40:08

Sunday and I guess the next Sunday after that in our series as we're just beginning to go through the book of Matthew, which led to discussion about Keniah, Jehoiakim, Jeconiah in verse 11 and Jeremiah 22.

40:23

So, Keniah is mentioned in the genealogy in Matthew 1 .11 and we also have

40:29

Jeremiah mentioned in, or I'm sorry, we also have Keniah mentioned in Jeremiah 22. Okay. One of the men at the group had brought an article by J.

40:36

Carl Laney that gave a different take on the prophecy about who was written down as childless, whether it was

40:43

Keniah or Zedekiah. I have attached it to this email. I am one for knee -jerk reactions where whatever

40:51

I have been taught or learned about something is the gospel and I have to slow down, step back and give the other perspective a chance.

40:57

As an aside, this happened with your 25 Christmas myths book, which

41:03

I purchased on Kindle on Christmas day last year and read the whole thing that evening after all of our

41:09

Christmas festivities were over. Wow. The one myth that I got hung up on was number 12 and the other view that Luke's genealogy is not

41:18

Mary's but also Joseph's through Leverite marriage. Thank you for the book and especially the update this year with the carols.

41:25

I still owe you a hug. Thanks and God bless, David. P .S. If you're gonna be at G3 in January, my pastor and his family and another family from church are attending.

41:35

I'll try to send them your way. Oh, perfect. Yeah, tell them to come by our table. We'll have a booth again this year.

41:42

Yes, we will. Okay, so to David's question here. In Matthew 1, we read the genealogy of Jesus, which led to discussion about Keniah in verse 11 and also in Jeremiah 22.

41:54

So let me turn there to Jeremiah 22. I didn't have this marked in my

41:59

Bible beforehand. And in this particular Bible, I've never been in Jeremiah 22 before. So this is,

42:05

I've only had this Bible for a couple of months. So this is the first time I am turning to this page.

42:12

At the end of chapter 22, the last two verses, this is Jeremiah 22 verses 29 and 30.

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We read, O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the

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Lord, write this man down as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days, for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.

42:38

So here's the common argument that is raised about this particular passage and its relationship to the genealogy in Matthew chapter one.

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So in Matthew 1, 11, it says, Josiah was the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

42:54

This is the genealogy of Christ. So if this man is to be written down as childless, how is it that Jeconiah is mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus?

43:06

If he's supposed to be childless, he doesn't have an heir. Right. So how is he in Christ genealogy?

43:12

Now, the document that David sent me is an explanation from Laney. And Laney basically says that Zedekiah is the reference.

43:21

So in Jeremiah 22, Laney's making the argument that where it says, thus says the

43:26

Lord, write this man down as childless, it's Zedekiah that's being talked about here.

43:32

That's Laney's explanation. And he goes on to say, careful exegesis of Jeremiah 22 indicates that the curse was on Zedekiah, not

43:40

Coniah. Matthew recognized this and included Jeconiah in Jesus genealogy. Commentaries can be helpful, but they sometimes get it wrong and their mistakes can end up in our sermons.

43:50

Nothing can take the place of careful exegesis under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, even when you are in a rush to prepare

43:56

Sunday sermon. That's the explanation from J. Carl Laney. Okay. I'm gonna say

44:01

Laney is wrong. Okay. And here is the explanation to this is actually really simple.

44:09

Okay. But I don't say that to make anyone feel dumb. I'm just saying this is a very simple explanation.

44:14

The curse that God is giving to Jeconiah here in Jeremiah 22 is only saying that this man is not gonna have an heir on the throne of David.

44:24

Okay. That's all it's saying that none of his actual birth children are going to be an heir to the throne.

44:32

Again, look at verse 30. Thus says the Lord, write this man down as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.

44:50

It didn't mean that he wasn't going to have children. Right. It meant that... Because it said his offspring.

44:55

Right. Right. His offspring. It says his offspring, none of his offspring shall succeed.

45:02

All it's... Yeah. That wouldn't even be in there if he was actually childless. Right. So as a king, he's not gonna have a child sitting on the throne.

45:12

Right. That's all that means. It's not saying that he will be childless and there will not be any children to his name whatsoever.

45:18

Right. That makes sense. That's all that. And that was true. So Jeconiah was the last king to sit on the throne of David and there was never another king again after him.

45:27

The next king is Jesus Christ. Yeah. Who is the fulfillment of the

45:32

Davidic promise that on your throne, I am going to establish my kingdom forever.

45:38

And the throne that Jesus Christ sits on is credited as David's throne, not

45:43

Jeconiah's throne. Right. So even though he's one of the men in the genealogy of Jesus, that's only mentioned to show how

45:52

Jesus is the rightful heir to the throne of David. But Jeconiah does not get credit or the blessing of God as being one whose heir would sit on that particular throne.

46:03

Gotcha. It is the Lord in his providence, in his ways, in his sovereignty, fulfilling what he had promised to David.

46:12

And Christ is the fulfillment of that Davidic covenant. So great question though,

46:18

David. Yeah. And you can take that back to your Bible study class. I'll stand on that answer. Now, we've got some time left in our broadcast.

46:26

That's all the questions that I had singled out. I thought we'd spend more time on that. Yeah. I guess that we did. This was something that I had originally,

46:34

I was thinking about starting the broadcast with this. Okay. But then I thought, well, I've got enough questions here.

46:40

So we'll just do the questions. And now I've got time at the end. So let's go ahead and come back to this. Yeah, okay.

46:46

Okay. Sure. This is a pastor in Sacramento, California. His name is

46:51

Steve Meister. And I've been following him on Twitter lately. And he recently posed a particular comment that had generated some good feedback.

47:02

Okay. So I was gonna read the comment, then we'll talk about his take, his hot take.

47:08

Okay. He says, unpopular take. All right. This is an unpopular take from Steve Meister.

47:14

He says, small groups tend to create as many problems as they supposedly solve and are vastly overrated by contemporary churches.

47:23

Okay. I agreed with his comment and shared it on Twitter and said, along with that, the only small group that you need is your family devotions.

47:31

If you're single, grab a friend, go out for coffee or something to eat. My case,

47:37

I would not have had coffee with my single friends. Yeah. Because I don't drink coffee. You don't drink coffee. You would have had the hot cocoa though.

47:43

Maybe. Or a tea. Not always, because I'm not a chocolate guy. I would have tea if they actually had sweet tea.

47:50

But if it's the Kansas thing they do, where they pour you tea and then add sugar to it. Oh, yeah. That's not brewed that way.

47:56

I won't drink that. You're so picky. You can taste, over here on this taste bud is tea and over here on this taste bud is sugar.

48:06

And they're not together. You can taste that. Anyway. Anyway, so I was saying that you go out with a friend, you crack open a

48:16

Bible over a cup of coffee or over a sandwich or something like that. And there you got a small group.

48:21

Yeah. Where you've got a Bible discussion that, I mean, you should be having on a regular basis with your friends, right?

48:28

Okay. So what is your take on that? That small groups tend to create as many problems as they supposedly solve and are vastly overrated by contemporary churches.

48:38

Okay. So explain to me exactly what a small group is and then I can answer that a little bit better.

48:45

That's a great beginning. I think of small group as a Bible study. Right. So we have

48:51

Bible study. Yes, we do. And we have Sunday school. That's considered a smaller group than your church.

48:58

I mean, everybody's invited. Right. But who are they led by? Elders. Elders, right.

49:03

So I lead the Bible study in our home. And Dave is leading the Sunday school class, the

49:08

Sunday school study that we have before church on Sunday morning. Right. And Pastor Dwight also leads a study class, a

49:18

Bible study during the week. And then he's got the church service that he leads on Sunday afternoon as well.

49:25

So all of our - Which is led by me or Dave.

49:32

And then we also have the women's Bible study. Yeah. So I was getting to that.

49:38

Okay. So right now, all the Bible studies that we've mentioned that we have at our church -

49:44

Minus the last one. The small groups are led by elders. Right. Now, when you go to a church, most churches in evangelicalism today.

49:56

Okay. They want you to get plugged in, quote, unquote. That's the way they call that phrase. And they want you to be a part of a small group, only they don't even really call them small groups anymore.

50:04

They call them life groups. Yeah. Right. I thought that was ridiculous. Yeah. Because it's in the whole slogan that goes with it is we're doing life together.

50:11

Right. But I agree with what Steve is saying here that they tend to cause more problems than they supposedly solve.

50:18

Because if you're not properly led in these groups, you can start to deviate from sound

50:25

Bible teaching into speculation. Right. And, well, I believe this passage is saying this. Right.

50:30

Which easily happens. Yes. Or in your small group, you have the leader that will say something like, now, what does this mean to you?

50:35

Yes. And any discussion can lead that direction, especially with the talkers who don't know when to refrain from talking.

50:47

Yes. Or when to cease talking to allow others to converse with them.

50:53

Right. It's like a one -sided thing. And they usually keep going. Yeah. And we've had those small groups turn into gossip groups.

51:05

There you go. Yes. That's where I was going with the gossip thing. Freudian slip. Yeah. So in those gossip groups, that's another problem that you could end up with in a small group.

51:17

Definitely. And so we try as best as we can as our small groups at our church to be led by the elders, which is,

51:25

I mean, how the church should be led. Right. It's being led by the elders. Now, we do have one or two groups that I've heard of, gals getting together and chatting, and they want to do a

51:35

Bible study together. But the studies that they do are mine. They actually follow stuff that I've put together.

51:41

And it said, study these chapters of the Bible, da, da, da, da, da. So they're still following elder -approved materials.

51:50

Right. That have been designated to the church. We had a group try to start up earlier this year, and it was actually not from women in our church.

51:58

They were not members of our church. Their kids were coming to Owanna on Wednesday night, but they didn't have anything to do during that period of time.

52:06

So they said, can we have a room here at the church? And we're going to do a

52:11

Bible study together. And they wanted to do a Priscilla Schreier book, Schreier book. You and her last name.

52:18

Yeah. And I have to YouTube that. I mixed it. I said, absolutely not. Yeah. So yeah, we didn't have anything for adults there at the time.

52:29

And that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to allow you to grab a room at our church and use materials that have not been approved by our eldership.

52:35

Yeah. We have that in place on purpose, though. Just the no adults.

52:42

That policy. Yeah. No adult study during that time. Just because we needed the volunteers.

52:48

Need the volunteers. Right. So this is kids group? We're focusing on discipling our children on Wednesday night.

52:55

And so instead of having an adult class that adults would go to, we try to encourage the adults to be a part of this discipling our kids.

53:01

Right. Now, you were about to get into the women's group. So we also have a women's group at our church.

53:08

Bringing that in. Which would technically be a small group. How does this women's group operate?

53:15

Well, it is the elder wives plus one. Yes. Because Ms. Sonia, who hangs out with all of his elders, wives a lot.

53:24

Anyway. And elders. And yeah. So we go through a

53:33

Bible verses like a passage, maybe. Right. This last time is a chapter, which was a bit more than we thought.

53:40

John 15. Yes. Then we, well, I sit down with you and ask, what are these?

53:46

What are the questions that are like? Because I can't. In my mind, I just ask too many questions and it would last way longer than an hour.

53:55

Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, help me get down to the nitty gritty of this passage.

54:00

And we go through the questions and just get the meat out of it. Yeah. So it's still elder led.

54:07

We are not physically there as the elders leading the class, but all the materials that are being used for that women's

54:14

Bible study have been passed through the elders and approved. So that's, yeah,

54:20

I agree. And we made sure to do that too, from the women's perspective. We wanted to make sure that the elders were as involved as any other

54:29

Bible study, aside from delivering that on Saturday mornings.

54:35

Right. And so I agree with Steve. I tend to think that most small groups cause more problems than they actually solve.

54:42

The focus of the church should be gathering together as church on Sunday, not dividing up into little small groups and letting them have their say without any sort of elder led guidance.

54:54

Right. In the things that they're studying and teaching. Now, both Pastor Steve and myself are not saying you should not do small groups at all.

55:03

Because obviously we do. We do. They're just not handled the way most small groups are probably going to be handled in a church that your average church that you're going to walk into.

55:14

Right. So small groups can still be okay. There's just, it tends to be way too much emphasis placed on small groups, life groups, whatever.

55:22

They're very rarely called Bible study. Right. But there's too much emphasis placed on them.

55:28

And so they tend to be kind of overrated. Just like what Steve was saying. Still a good idea if they're handled the right way.

55:36

But everything really must start with what the church is doing together on Sunday morning and then branching out from there.

55:43

Right. That has to be the main emphasis and everybody's involvement is there. That's where we are hearing the word of God preached together.

55:53

We are celebrating and singing his praises together. Yes. We are coming to the Lord's table together.

55:59

Yes. All of that happens in that Sunday morning service. So the church begins and is united there.

56:05

And then however you might break out from there over the course of the week can vary from church to church. Just don't place too much emphasis on those life groups over actual church gathering on Sunday morning.

56:16

Right. All right. So that is our program today. We found enough time to talk about that at the very end.

56:22

Yes, we did. And don't forget to send us those Christmas questions for next week's program. When we understand the text at gmail .com.

56:30

Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Yeah, send those to us today. Yeah, today, tomorrow, you know.

56:37

So we can hop on it before I have to do my dental surgery. Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this wonderful day that we could gather together and open up your word and read such great things that you have given to us through your apostles and prophets.

56:55

And may this be the authority over every decision that we make, whether it would be how a church service is organized, how somebody might break out into a small group, any of the questions that we have concerning your word.

57:08

We always come back to the Bible to answer those questions for us. So we revere this and make it our priority and give us good teachers over us to guide us in these things, lest we go our own way and try to answer questions from our own flesh, because we're weak and we can't do this on our own.

57:25

We require the entire church to grow and knit together in love, as Paul explains in Ephesians chapter four.

57:33

And it's those shepherds and teachers that equip the saints for the work of ministry.

57:40

So may we find ourselves properly equipped to do the Lord's work in this world, keeping us from evil and holding fast to those things which are good.

57:48

And it's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. All right.

58:56

I like it better that way. You got to move your mic though. It's right in the way. Oh, well, it sounds weird.

59:03

Oh, I need my Bible out. You might. You told me you were ready. I am ready.

59:10

You said, hey, babe, I'm ready. And then I had to pee. And get your cup.

59:16

And get my tea. And get your Bible. And get my bee. Right here.

59:23

My bee. My Bible. Now, are you sure you're all the way ready? Hang on.

59:29

What's our first question? Let me check and see. What do I need to have my Bible open to?

59:35

I don't know. I'll just randomly turn to a passage and leave it there. Perfect. We're in Jeremiah. This is

59:41

When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast. Sorry, I wasn't going to get it out any other way.

59:48

What did you hit? I hit this. Quit. You asked. Well, don't do it again.

59:55

This is When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast that we may meditate on the word of Christ, careful to do according to all that it is written in it.