Rick Warren Waffles on Homosexuality

Okay, so Rick Warren, he's out making the rounds again, and I hate cleaning up his messes, but every time he goes out on the talk show circuit to plug something that he's doing, he leaves a theological wake of destruction in his path.

And this happened again on Piers Morgan's program. Listen, if you're a Christian leader and you get invited on Piers Morgan's program, get this in your head. You are going to be thrown fast, hardball pitches aimed at your head.

This is what the world is going to do. And of course, Piers Morgan is a big advocate out there for the whole idea of gay marriage. And so if you're a Christian, you're considered to be an obstacle to this social goal.

And as a result of it, he's going to be gunning for you, and you need to be ready with a biblical answer, not your own opinion. Because the job of a Christian, when it comes to things like this, is not proclaim their opinions or what they think sounds reasonable, or worse, try to waffle on the answer so as not to offend certain people.

Listen, you're a Christian, okay? You're an ambassador of the kingdom of Christ, and everybody who's born on this planet is born dead in trespasses and sins, and they hate God. So don't think that you're going to be able to avoid being mocked, hated, and accused.

Listen, okay, they spit at and beat and crucified Jesus. And if you're trying to avoid that same fate, you're not doing your job as a Christian. That's all I'm saying. But here is Rick Warren on Piers Morgan's program talking about the subject of gay marriage.

And once again, Rick Warren gives us an unhelpful answer because he's not giving us the biblical one. Here we go.

The Biblical Answer to Questions About Being Born Gay

Here's my confusion about you, because you've been with your wife, Kay, extremely generous in tackling things like AIDS. You've given millions to helping fight AIDS.

And worked with gay organizations all around the world.

Right, right. So you clearly have no problem with gay people per se, and yet you want to prevent them having the same rights to get married as straight people. And that leads me to, I suppose, a more obvious supplementary question.

Do you personally believe that gay people are born gay, or do they become gay? Are they made gay?

Kay, now stop, okay? The question that Piers Morgan is asking assumes something. And here's the idea, okay? If people are born gay, then that means that's just who or what they are. And we can't judge a person for who or what they is.

Bad grammar.

But you get what I'm saying here, okay? And so he basically is assuming, if I can get you to say that they're born that way, then I win. And there's no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to marry if they're gay, okay?

Notice that gay, at this point, becomes something similar to, well, whether you're male or female, whether your skin color is black, white, or some shade in between, right? It's just one of these things.

You're just born that way. You can't fault somebody for being what they were born, right? Well, see, there's where the biblical answer gets to be the thing that needs to be put out there. Because here's the idea.

The scriptures teach that all of us are conceived and born in sin. All of us are, by nature, dead in trespasses and sins and at war with God. Each and every one of us, the reason why we pursue sin is because we're born with the condition of sin.

So let me give you a couple passages to kind of help this out. Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1 through 2, and you, Paul writing to the Ephesians talking about their state before they were Christians, and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work, and the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

So coming back to Piers Morgan's questions, you know, do you think that people are born gay or that they learn to be gay?

Okay.

A good Christian answer would be something along the lines of this. You know what? The Bible actually lends itself, teaches that each and every human being is born dead in trespasses and sins, and as a result of that, follow the passions of the flesh.

So to say that somebody is born gay, I think the Bible can say, yeah, everybody is born dead in trespasses and sins, and since that's a sickness and a disease that separates us from God and is the reason why there's so much evil in the world, that yeah, that homosexuals just like me, just like you, just like everybody else, they're born sinners, and as a result of that, are born with an appetite to sin, and that appetite is fed in a variety of different sins of the flesh and other things.

See, you just go, you do something like that, and all of a sudden, it takes the wind out of his sails and makes him have to deal with this idea that, listen, Scripture's clear. Homosexuality, adultery, theft, murder, stealing, idolatry, false doctrine, all of these are sins, and the reason why we do these things is because we are by nature sinners and by nature objects of God's wrath.

So yeah, we're all born this way, and every human being has been born this way since Adam and Eve rebelled against God and disobeyed Him in the Garden of Eden. And so the solution that Christianity offers is a full and complete pardon so that you don't have to face the wrath of God for your participation in this rebellion against Him.

See, it's just that simple, right? Well, let's see what Rick Warren does.

Yeah.

You know what?

I think the jury's still out on that. It wouldn't bother me if there was, quote, a gay gene found, because...

It wouldn't bother you.

Well, that's just great.

I mean, if they found a gay gene, Rick, the jury is not out on this. God's Word is clear. All of us are born dead in trespasses and sins, and that's the reason why we pursue the passions of the flesh.

That's the biblical answer. Have you considered giving the biblical answer when you're on these talk shows?

Here's what we know about life. I have all kinds of natural feelings in my life.

Now he's making a non-biblical argument.

And it doesn't necessarily mean that I should act on every feeling. Sometimes I get angry and I feel like punching a guy on the nose. It doesn't mean I act on it.

Why shouldn't you act on it? Give me the biblical reason why you shouldn't.

Sometimes I, as you pointed out, sometimes I feel attracted to women who are not my wife. I don't act on it. Just because I have a feeling doesn't make it right.

Well, what makes it right then?

Not everything natural is good for me. Arsenic is natural.

No, but that's why, Rick, that's why I have to jump in again. That is why, though, this is such an interesting debate because, you know, I just believe fundamentally and passionately that gay people are born gay.

I don't think you become gay. And I think if you were able to convince yourself that they were born gay, you would see it differently. You would see it as a natural condition that people are gay.

See, that's his argument.

Then you may change your mind about their rights to have the same fundamental rights as straight people. But if you still believe...

You see, listen, if you give the biblical answer, you pull the rug right out from Piers Morgan's argument and you have to focus the attention then on, wait a second, if this is sinful behavior and subject to the wrath of God, is it really truly loving our neighbor to, well, redefine marriage?

You see what I'm saying? It changes the whole debate structure. But leave it to Rick to not give the biblical answer. Now there's more to what Rick Warren said on Piers Morgan's program, but I'm going to switch gears a little bit here and kind of do an extra bonus.

And that is play for you the audio from the interview that Rick Warren did the next day with the Huffington Post. In fact, this is an interview with Mark Lamont Hill of the Huffington Post, who noticed what Rick Warren said on Piers Morgan's program, and he was somewhat dumbfounded and flabbergasted because it doesn't sound like the typical Christian response.

Here's that audio, and I kind of add this into the mix so that you can hear what's going on here, because what Rick is doing is rather clever and evasive and ambiguous. Here, listen in.

Attraction, Sin, and the Doctrine of Original Sin

You were on Piers Morgan last night.

I was. I was.

And you had a very interesting conversation about whether or not being gay was both natural.

Or... Right, right.

In fact, I think we have it. Can we bring that up?

I think the jury's still out on that. It wouldn't bother me if there was, quote, a gay gene found, because here's what we know about life. I have all kinds of natural feelings in my life, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I should act on every feeling.

I do not believe attraction is a sin.

Okay, did you hear that? He said, I don't believe attraction is a sin. Now, I'm not going to respond biblically quite yet, but there are passages that apply here. So he says, I don't believe. Well, it doesn't matter what you believe.

What matters is what scripture says.

But I do believe that some actions are sin.

So some actions are sin, but attraction isn't.

Let me ask you this on several levels. You think, as a pastor, that it is possible that people are born with a natural desire?

It's possible.

But still, it would be a sin, that God would create a sort of situation whereby someone could have feelings and desires that are natural to them, but it's still a sin.

The answer is yes, because, like I've pointed out, we are all born dead in trespasses and sins. God didn't make us this way. We made ourselves this way by rebelling against God and sinning against Him.

This is a result of the fall. The doctrine here is original sin. Okay, now listen to Rick Warren's response.

You know what?

I don't have it all figured out. I do know this. I do know I'm called to love everybody. I am not allowed to hate anybody as a Christian. In fact, the Bible says I'm to treat everyone with dignity, everyone with respect, everyone with love.

It doesn't mean I agree with every... You don't agree with everything I do, but you could treat me with respect.

Absolutely.

Okay? And what I am worried about is that if you disagree with somebody today, you're often called a hater. I don't really hate anybody.

Changing the subject.

Or you're called phobic. I'm not afraid of anybody. I have many, many gay friends, have worked around the world with them in gay organizations to try to stop AIDS. We're doing World AIDS Day this weekend at Saddleback Church.

My wife and I have given millions of dollars to help people with HIV AIDS and worked with gay organizations on that.

And so...

What about the love part though? Because the AIDS... I hear the AIDS part.

It's not illegal to love somebody.

But you think it's a sin.

I don't...

No!

It's not a sin to love somebody. It might be a sin to have sex with them.

Okay, now stop. It's not a sin to love somebody. It's a sin to have sex with them.

Hmm.

Okay. Two passages come to mind and I'm going to do this in reverse order. And what I mean by that is this. Is I'm going to do these in reverse order because usually you lead off with your strongest argument.

I'm not going to lead off with my strongest argument here. I'm going to lead off with the weaker argument, even though it's still strong, and then go.

Up.

So I'm arguing backwards, just so you know, normally you don't do this. Romans chapter 1. Romans chapter 1. Okay, I will start at verse 19. I'm sorry, verse 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made, so that they are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened, claiming to be wise, they became fools.

And they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds and animals, and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed forever.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty.

Of their error.".

Okay, stop for a second. Do you think for a second that the Bible here is teaching that, hey listen, burning with passion for somebody who has the same sex as you do, that's okay, it's not a sin, that it's not a sin as long as you don't act out on it and actually do the deed.

No, it's not saying that at all. In fact, it's describing these passions as dishonorable, unnatural, and as a punishment.

From God.

Where did Rick Warren get the idea that sin is only something that you commit, or sexual sin is only something that you commit? I mean, if we go down this slippery slope, then we might as well argue, listen, I didn't actually have sex with such and such a woman, I only lusted after her when I saw her scantily clad body on the internet or walking down the street or whatever.

Is that what Jesus says? No, Jesus doesn't say that at all. In fact, Jesus himself makes it clear that sexual sin doesn't require somebody to actually do the deed. So here's the stronger argument. Matthew 5, verse 27, you have heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery.

This is Jesus speaking. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Rick Warren is at direct odds with Jesus Christ and what God's word says about this.

Let me play it again.

What about the love part though? Because I hear the AIDS part.

It's not illegal to love somebody, but you think it's a sin. No, it's not a sin to love somebody. It might be a sin to have sex with them.

Wow.

It might be.

Yeah, there it is again. Boy, that's some firm conviction on the part of Rick Warren, isn't it? It might be a sin if you have sex with him. And the funny thing is, is that he goes on to say that his view is biblical.

No, it's not. It's not. In fact, something to keep in mind here, you'll notice how frustratingly ambiguous Rick Warren's answers are. Well, keep that in mind as we go into the next segment. Now, I'm not going to talk about Rick Warren anymore after this point.

I'm going to focus on Rob Bell. But as you listen to the next segment on Rob Bell, keep this in the forefront of your mind. How is the story that I'm going to tell you about Rob Bell that's recorded for us in the New Yorker, how is the story of Rob Bell that much different or qualitatively different than what we're seeing Rick Warren doing?

Does he sound like somebody who is a firm, staunch, grounded believer in what Scripture clearly says? Or is he waffling? And if he's waffling, is that not indicative of something that's going on? I mean, long ago, I gave up the idea that Rick Warren was giving us true advertising on his book, The Purpose Driven Church.

In fact, here's my copy of it right here, Growth Without Compromising Your Message and Mission. What I'm hearing from Rick Warren sure does sound like doctrinal and theological compromise to me. What does it sound like to you?