Michael Brown's "The Real Kosher Jesus"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Conversation and the Need to Take Islam Seriously

And good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you're listening. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. I am joined this afternoon or this evening. I guess it's evening on the East Coast. It's still very much the afternoon here in The Valley of the Sun where it's actually actually rather cool today in comparison to what's normally like but anyways I'm joined today by dr. Michael Brown the author of the new book called the real kosher Jesus and.

Of course, there's a background to all this which I will allow dr. Brown not. Does your voice hold up pretty well because you just got done with two hours radio, didn't you? Oh, yeah, two hours of radio and ready to go man looking forward to our hour together.

Well, I most you know, I am often listening to the sonorous tones of My friend from New York as I'm riding along. Sometimes what happens is whatever I'm listening to I get done with it. And and I'm just sort of looking around in my iPod for something and and I just recently for example I I went over the line of fire stuff and and for some reason it hadn't updated for quite some time.

So I'm listening to stuff from like I don't know back in April May something like that I forget what it was and I'm always looking around looking for some some Jewish stuff or. Sometimes you just wander off into some really interesting areas and I think the last time I did something like that.

You're you're you're doing what was it? You were doing it was supposed to be funny. I forget but It's it's very very entertaining. I was actually listening live today. Unfortunately, I got interrupted.

Did you fit figure out who the Islamic Antichrist is? No, I didn't know what. Here's the big thing to me though. Regardless of anyone's eschatology. What was most important to me is that people take Islam seriously?

Yeah, and they recognize the global threat it is they recognize God's purposes for the Muslim people and in that context I Mentioned you dr. White is one of the few and far between Christians who's taking on Islam Apologetically and what is it something like one full-time missionary for every 1 million Muslims?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's it's almost it's almost non-existent though. The Lord still is doing a work especially in Africa in that in that way. But especially when it comes to interacting with Islam on an apologetic basis.

Really dealing with there's so much work that needs to be done. For example in the history of the Quran and the history of the Hadith. There's just so much fruitful area there but so few people and of course, it's not exactly like people are flocking to do that kind of work because you know people who publish in that area then end up living in fear of the rest of their lives and so it's it's it is a real real challenge and one that's I know you've mentioned you you want to possibly start looking a little bit more into that area sometime, especially given your background.

Dealing especially with some of the Quranic issues would be would be a great. It would be a great to have you along. It's not like you've got nothing else to be doing. No, it's it's it's important though and I had three years of classical Arabic and of course my degrees are in Semitic studies and Some of my classes my advanced Arabic classes.

I had very religious Muslims in the class. In fact, there was one late afternoon class that we had late afternoon early evening. And it worked out that it fell during a prayer time. But there were there was a guy from Sudan and then there were a couple of Muslims black Muslim.

Not nation of Islam but black Americans who are Muslims they were there. But they had different traditions as to what they were supposed to pray. So it's just like a mitered church split. They would actually go out at separate times with their prayer mats to pray because they were from different traditions.

But to me the greatest strength that we have in dealing with Muslims is is the religious ones work so hard and yet they have no assurance of forgiveness of sins and no concept of Allah as a loving father and that to me is just a foundational need in every human being to know God as a loving father and to have assurance of Forgiveness and that is the one thing that Islam cannot deliver no matter how it's packaged.

That's for sure I have said many many times that Theology matters and it really doesn't in that area when I when I well I was just speaking up in Boulder and we had a Muslim attend two of the three nights and we had excellent conversations with him afterwards and one of the saddest things and you especially because I listened to.

When did you do the program was just recently you did a program on the vital importance of repentance. You had people calling in and what's the relationship between faith repentance that was within the past right or so, wasn't it?

Yeah, or within the past few weeks. I mean, I tell you what I've done some shows on counterfeit grace right and some of the anti repentance teaching and because of that. It's obviously a recurring theme and it's such a foundational lack in the church today.

So it's certainly within the last month I touched on it afresh right, right I heard I heard the program and I'm sitting there. Of course, of course, I'm sitting there riding along going. Okay, Michael.

You're almost there. You're almost keep going. Yeah. Because obvious that's that's an issue I've actually debated against dr. Robert Wilkin. Who's one of the primary proponents of the no repentance perspective?

But in talking with this Muslim on the second night that we that we spoke the first the first night we spoke he says and we're gonna get to the book here in a second, but you when you and I start talking we just talk fast anyways, but The first the first night he said, you know, one of the biggest struggles I have is, you know How could God become flesh and you know, it was a good discussion of what we really do mean by the Incarnation.

We don't mean by the Incarnation. It was great. Then the second night that we talked he said well I'll be honest with you says every Christian I've talked to and this is what was so sad. He says every Christian I've talked to you.

One of my biggest problems is you believe in the golden ticket? No, no, normally I'm left going normally I have a response but I'm like the golden ticket. He says yeah. You believe that you could all you have to do is is believe in Jesus and then you can just go and do whatever you want.

You don't there's no personal responsibility. There's you just you just got your ticket punched you're going to heaven and I was I was really troubled when he said every Christian that had bothered to talk to him had had that view and I was like, well, actually that that that's not what the Bible teaches.

Let me tell you what the Bible teaches and he was amazed when I when I went through, you know Paul saying, you know, shall we continue in sin the grace might increase and so on so forth. He was amazed at that and I hope that the you know, a seed was planted an opportunity for further dialogue with him but So many Muslims have the idea that in essence to be a Christian means you don't believe in any personal responsibility.

Jesus just did everything and you just you know, you can just go live like the world and many of them look at the West and say see there it is because they look at the West as being Christian and of Course, it's about as far from that as it could be.

Right and and often in dealing with Jewish rabbis through the years. They would take issue with instant forgiveness on the one hand the forgiveness through the cross is a scandal, right? That God forgives us because of what Jesus did and declares us not guilty.

Because of what his son did is is a scandal because we always feel we somehow have to to earn it. But the scandal comes to those who realize the impossibility of earning it and then the debt of gratitude for the rest of my life.

What must I do? How shall I live and you know what when I talk to people I've tried to reduce this to soundbites and and I just you know, try to emphasize salvation actually saves us. Salvation is is from something to something.

It's like if I give you a free ticket, you know, no one can get on this plane. It's booked ten years in advance. It's a million dollars a ticket. I give you a free ticket. It's free but when you get off the plane, you will be somewhere else and obviously when people see the low standard of so-called Christianity when they see the scandals in the church when they see so many leaders when it seems sometimes the most prominent Superstars are the most riddled with scandals.

It makes the name of Jesus look bad it makes all of us look bad and how is a Muslim or a traditional Jew supposed to Discern who's the real Christian and who isn't when they just hear quote Christianity in this, you know the mixed martial arts guy cracks the guy's skull open in the name of Jesus and the you know, The the star and the R-rated movie taken off her clothes gives thanks to the Lord for giving her the opportunity to be on this.

In this movie, it's all hard to distinguish what's going on just a little bit now. You just made reference to Jewish rabbis, which is a nice way of Segway here. With the profession with the professional radio man.

Michael Brown and Shmuley Boteach: A Friendship Built Through Debate

Yes. Okay. I Will have to admit I I remember the first time I ever heard you in a debate with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach okay, I remember exactly where I was and I wanted to I wanted to jump off my bike and beat my head against a rock just for a little while to feel better because you were so wonderfully patient and Shmuley was so wonderfully completely missing everything that you were saying that that I I was just like, okay Obviously God has given to Michael a special gift of grace.

That he is able to do this and do it over and over again, and I've had that situation I know there are certain for example Islamic apologists I get along real well with them other people that deal with them don't get along with them at all and vice versa.

There's some people I can't get along with at all and other people can so obviously it's it's there. There's there's personal stuff involved and things like that, but you've got a long Relationship with Shmuley and that's where this all comes from.

So why don't you tell me a little bit about that relationship and his book the kosher Jesus as the background to yours? Yeah, absolutely and I do have a profound love for Shmuley and I Often love to see how he turns a conversation or a debate in the direction that he desires it.

Sometimes like to raise my excuse me. That's actually not the subject of debate. He's brilliant at it and we have become dear friends. So here's the background in the early 2000s. He was on CNN and was I think on Larry King?

He was opposite David Brickner from Jews for Jesus and some others and after that he put out some challenge. He was gonna debate Jewish believers in Jesus. He was gonna take everyone on he had been a famous debater when he was at Oxford University leading a Jewish club there and very confident so there was a Messianic Jewish fellow in New York and A friend of Shmuley's and he wrote to Shmuley emailed him and said you need to take on our gladiator.

Meaning me so I found this out afterwards and Shmuley said you bet I'll take this guy on and he was quite clear. He was gonna demolish my positions. Well, we had a debate in April of 2002. There was a pre-signed contract that we couldn't distribute it publicly, but we had this debate.

We had a turnaway over 300 people it was quite an extraordinary event and Let's just say we were able to put up a brick wall of truth on that occasion. And although Shmuley and I were not friends then he at least had respect for me on an intellectual level.

Well Two years later right before Mel Gibson's movie the passion of the Christ came out. We did a debate standing room only at the New York Hilton about a thousand people there news coverage. It was quite quite an event in itself, but it was called who really killed Jesus, right?

And right before that debate I had sent him a copy of my book Our hands are stained with blood which talks about anti-semitism in church history and some of the beauties of Judaism and so on. And anyway, he got that book.

He realized he had been looking at me one way only just as this messianic Jewish missionary. He reached out to me. We went out for a dinner with our wives as well after the April 2004 debate and From then on we developed a genuine friendship.

We've debated all over America. We did a big debate with about 1 ,200 present in Phoenix. We've debated at Oxford University in England and spent many hours Talking together and drives and he's come twice to speak to our students at our School of Ministry.

He's even allowed us to surround him and pray for him as long as we didn't pray in Jesus name. I Said well, God knows what we're doing. In fact a quick little anecdote then I'll get to these books. We had done a debate shmooly Darrell Bach New Testament scholar from Dallas Theological Seminary.

Shmooly Darrell and I on the Da Vinci Code and we're coming at it from different aspects, you know, Dan Dan Brown's phenomenal selling fictional book and Afterwards we went out for a meal together and shmooly was about to be on the Oprah Winfrey show.

He was flying out to do the interview the next day and he said to us Hey pray for me that the interview will go well. I'm talking about family issues and other things. So I said, why don't we pray right now?

So I grabbed his hand and we joined hands at the dinner table and I prayed for God to bless the interview and use it. To help raise moral understanding and the importance of family and I prayed it in Yeshua's name and shmooly with a smile said Why did you have to pray in Yeshua's name.

I said well shmooly you want it to work don't you. Anyway in our debates he would surface these ideas that Jesus was actually a freedom fighter against Rome. He was a great rabbi. But the New Testament has been reconstructed to make the Jews the bad guys and the Romans neutral or even good guys.

Where was the Romans who were the good guys. The early Jewish leaders loved Jesus because he was a great Jewish teacher teacher. He was a patriot who hated the Romans even makes reference to having some swords at the Garden of Gethsemane.

That's a hidden reference to the original text and he was going to lead a revolt against Rome and he failed he failed. He was not a false Messiah. He was a failed Messiah. He was a noble patriot. Jews should reclaim him and Paul's the one who came along and changed everything and Truly largely followed the theories of a British scholar.

Hi, I'm McAbee who did some excellent work in medieval medieval Jewish debates in Jewish literature. But had some really bizarre theories about Paul and Jesus even saying that Paul was not even Jewish by blood.

So last year he notifies me that he is putting out all of this. He's worked on it for six years putting it out in a book called kosher Jesus and he's written other books like kosher sex and kosher adultery and kosher sutra, whatever.

So now kosher Jesus that's kind of his theme and he wants Jews to reclaim the real Jesus. So he goes no, if this is not the Jesus of the Christians, you're gonna differ here. Christian is a great religion but it's wrong about this this and this but perhaps we can have common ground where Jews at least appreciate the real Jesus and Jews and Christians can work together to make the world a better place that kind of thing, right and throughout the book very politely.

He attacks me and quotes my books and attacks them and then has a friendly acknowledgement very sweet in the back in a funny way. Acknowledging me and our friendship. Well, he contacts me late summer early fall last year and says Mike Will you write an endorsement for my book kosher Jesus?

I want to get this out to everyone he ends up with. Endorsements from Glenn Beck to Pat Boone to Alan Dershowitz to Alan Combs like you've got to be kidding me. But he wanted me to write an endorsement.

I thought well, how can I do it? I disagree with the fundamental thesis of the book. I he bashes me throughout the book, but he really wanted my endorsement. So I thought okay, here's what I'll do. I'll say I disagree passionately with this this this and this but I think it's great to see an Orthodox Jew reclaiming Jesus as a fellow Jew and rabbi and we can call this book America's most famous rabbi meets the most famous rabbi of all time.

He loved it. He used the endorsement. I forget about it except we're gonna have some debates on the subject come March or April. That's our goal January 18th. I'm following the news. Just talking to a guy from Israel.

He told me in our office. He said oh, yeah. This was getting controversy and press all over Israel. The book was going to be published by an Israeli publisher named Geffen. It was coming out end of January in Israel early February in the States and Instant controversy about the book.

How dare he say anything good about Jesus. Jews reject Jesus. You don't want to get Jews reading the New Testament. That's the worst thing that could happen. The rabbi shook it whose debate you moderated March 30th of 1995.

He comes out. He's an old man in his 80s. He bans the book. No traditional Jews are allowed to read this book. It's dangerous. Worldwide controversy swirling. I I the chief rabbi of Nebraska. I didn't know such a person existed.

Nebraska, yeah, he's maybe part-time golfer part-time chief rabbi. I don't know. But it can't be too busy unless he makes a lot of house calls. I mean how many Jews in Nebraska. Chief rabbi of Nebraska because I'm starting to follow this online now.

He says I just started the book. I haven't gotten it yet. But if Michael Brown says it's good. That's a problem because he's this leading missionary. So I get this burden. Late in prayer January 18th, I've got to make my own statement.

Maybe write a review of his book or something. I wake up January 19th. It's just all over me write your own book. He's got kosher Jesus set the record straight and make this the best tool you've ever written to just give to an interested Jewish person or to open the eyes of an interested Christian into who Jesus really Was and and the the mysteries of what I call the hidden Messiah and Jewish background and get the book out now.

Well easier said than done, how do you write it. Our schedules, you know, how busy they are. Yeah. Even to write a book a serious book in a few months then a publisher nine months to a year on the rush pace to Get it out.

Well, I started writing the book January 19th. April 2nd the book was printed on my desk from a leading Christian publisher. I wrote the book in three weeks. The book was published from the day. I started writing today was out less than two and a half months.

I really took it as a sign of the Lord's favor. Obviously truth stands or falls on its own, but I experienced so much grace in writing it I couldn't wait to start writing and I have to force myself to go to sleep at 5 in the morning.

I felt bionic everything just pouring out of me and then and I took the closing part of the book and excerpted some of the key apologetics parts in my other five-volume series that were most relevant and the goal is to take the reader on a journey of discovery the Christian reader and the Jewish reader.

And James the thing that blessed me the most. Was one Christian reviewer said a serious reviewer online said that it was the most phenomenal Revelation of Jesus he ever got so this is from a Christian perspective.

And now it's getting into the hands of Jewish people some prominent Jews as well. We're waiting to see what happens, but that is the background to my relationship with Shmuley and the real kosher Jesus.

And yes, he wrote an endorsement for my book, too. Well now his book his book then remains banned. I mean there was a lot of going back and forth there for a while between He and Rabbi Shochet and primarily Rabbi Shochet's son, right?

Yes, Emmanuel Shochet in fact I even got involved in the middle of that because his son who's the leading rabbi in England and a Possible candidate for chief rabbi of England and Shmuley's name was even floated for that interestingly enough.

But he then turned around and started to attack Shmuley and in the process Happened to mention that Shmuley debated me, and he's derogatory toward Shmuley. He was completely outclassed debating me, but not his dad Emmanuel Shochet.

Emmanuel Shochet debated me in 95 and defeated me and there was a panel of judges. Yeah, who declared his victory. It's like wait a second. I that was we set the debate up. It was friends of ours and believers that set the thing up.

I dr. White's a friend. There's a panel of people sitting there to make sure the thing was conducted properly, but there was no Panel of judges that made a decision so that got me involved because that came out the Huffington Post and I replied to it.

So quite amazing as far as the band Rabbi Shochet never took it back and once it's issued. It's issued. But what Shmuley was surprised of was that religious Jews Orthodox ultra-orthodox Jews even found out about it because he didn't write it for them.

He didn't think they'd ever notice it. But it's created a quite a stir and a lot of the counter missionaries the counter missionary rabbis. We're very upset with the book because they felt it would be a wonderful Stepping-stone for Jews to read it think about Jesus and in that respect I agree and it's my prayer that it will be a stepping stone that that Jews will start to read what Jesus actually said and Want to find out more about this amazing Jew so fundamentally there's as I understood it and I've.

And by the way, I know when you actually You you saved the final file that you sent to me Anyways was February 24th. And the reason I know that is when I first converted it to mp3 to listen to it I didn't cut out the bottom portion of each page.

Every time a page would finish it would repeat the date and the exact time. The file was saved and it was driving me insane. So I I redid the entire thing. So I I remember that one very very clearly you you wrote it at it the only time I've written a book faster, I actually I actually beat you because when the Jesus tomb story came out The Cameron and all the rest of that stuff.

I wrote my response that in 17 days. Whoa so How many words oh, I don't know I'd have to go look I mean, what if it's like an eight-page book? Oh, no. No, how many rich I find out how many pages I'm sending rich to find out how many wait a minute.

I think I might yeah, wait a minute. Here it is. Here it is from Toronto to Emmaus is 152. Oh, well, come on. My mine is like 248. You know what, you know what I think it is I think you were destined to write faster and I I willed it to try to write and that's why you beat me.

Well in any sense in any way the two two points it seemed to me I've listened to it twice. That were the primary issues that and you spent a lot of time going through the sources. That shmooly used and and identifying what those sources are and and where the problems with them were but two fundamental perspectives was what you called the Rambo rabbi or rabbi Rambo rabbi Rambo theory.

Based upon the two swords idea and obviously very much connected with that. Was this and I've heard him do this and I just wanted to scream this incredibly radical Perspective he has on the transmission of the text in New Testament.

It one of the things that bothers me is is I would expect him to know better. Basically, because I mean he's he's using the worst that the Muslims use this, you know a New Testament text that is absolutely fluid and it can it can be edited and changed and formed and and and and all this stuff and yet leave absolutely no evidence in history of any of the pre-existing forms and all the rest that kind of stuff it the two-pronged attack the the.

This is what originally said and we really can't trust what's there. Anyways due to Paul and the changes and editing and stuff like that. Is that a good summary? Yeah, that's basically it that the real Jesus is the one that has now been reconstructed.

Which I basically say based on two swords. He has made a mountain out of two swords and then what do you do with the fact that every strand every layer of the? New Testament, however, you unpeel it. Whichever author you look at whichever voice you look at is testifying the same thing that Jesus came as a lamb that Jesus did not come to start a civil war against Rome or a revolt Against Rome that he willingly laid his life down that he's the Son of God.

That somehow all of these strands everything were this was all changed by Paul and nobody quite noticed it because you still had these other original Jewish followers of Jesus that were the core of The Messianic body the church at that time.

So I said it's basically like someone Rewrote the American Constitution and and wrote instead the Communist Manifesto, but nobody noticed it. Or somebody took the Mona Lisa portrait and instead changed it.

So it's the face of an ugly man with it with a beard and mustache, but but nobody noticed it. It would be that absurd and and I go through what has to happen even Paul's own testimony about himself. I I point out that in the the Middle Ages There were Catholic censors who would look at the rabbinic texts.

The the Talmudic writings the writings of Maimonides and others and if they saw overt attacks on Christianity or realized that these were coded attacks on Christianity or Jesus. They would cut them out and then some of the Jewish scribes.

Not one of these things to be cut out would put out additions that were missing these and then you'd have a book in the Yeshiva that would say right here's all the passages that were taken out either by the Jewish scribes or by the Catholic censors.

So this idea of cutting out parts of sacred scripture is very abhorrent in Jewish tradition. So I I have a whole section where I actually have the writings of Paul where he talks about himself. And I have them all crossed out.

It's actually With with lines running through it in the text. I don't know how that played out as you were listening to it. But maybe it's like I didn't notice that part. So I I'm not sure. That's how it is on the page that they're actually crossed out and you think yikes.

You're crossing out passage after passage after passage. But but the biggest issue of course is that the Jesus of the New Testament did not come to die. He was not the lamb. He was not the guilt offering for us.

He did not lay his life down to make an atonement. I have a whole section on the book and Jewish tradition on the atoning power of the death of the righteous and. What I do is I go through the rabbi Rambo theory now what I call it rabbi Rambo.

Because Jesus in the garden says to his disciples how many swords. Yeah, they have two now. He's talking about he's gonna be crucified and Isaiah 53 said he's gonna be numbered with the transgressors.

And he says look they're gonna have to look at us as a bunch of transgressors and lawbreakers. How many swords you have two and and they says okay enough in other words, you're not you're not getting the point here.

As they volunteer we have two swords. He said, okay. We're enough you're not getting the point of what I'm saying. And then he goes on to categorically say put the sword up. Peter don't don't cut the guy's ear off.

You know, he renounces the sword over and over thereafter. Well in schmooly's theory. This is a hidden reference to the fact that he was actually going to lead a revolt against Rome now. Here's the problem.

He's got 11 guys and two swords. I mean, this is Rambo like he's now gonna take down. How many tens of thousands of Roman soldiers were stationed in Jerusalem and thereabouts? So schmooly's theory was that as Jesus led the revolt like oh, let's bring them down and they flashed the two swords.

Maybe swing them overhead to make them look like more who knows that suddenly the Jewish populace would rise up and together. They would take down Rome and lead this noble revolt. What do you call someone like that that tries to take down the government with 11 men and two swords you call that person?

Delusional you don't praise that person. Moses gonna lead the children of Israel into the into the city march on man. The sea is gonna part. They all drown. You know Noah spends years decades building an ark and the rain never comes.

Elijah promises fire to fall from heaven and instead of fire falling from heaven. They every they slice them up because he's a false prophet or he spoke false in the name of his God. That's delusional.

I talk about in the book something called Jerusalem syndrome, which is actually a known phenomenon. By name among psychologists psychiatrists in Israel or even hospitals that specialize in helping people with Jerusalem syndrome.

What it is when people get to the wall. What we call the wailing wall when I say we in outside of Jews. Jews don't call it the wailing wall when. They get to the wall when they get near the ruins of the temple.

They somehow get these delusions. I am Jesus. I am Elijah the Prophet. I'm Mary and they actually think that they are these people and they have to be hospitalized some for a matter of days. Some for longer periods of time.

Generally speaking when they come to their senses, they're very embarrassed. Well, you've got rabbi Rambo with Jerusalem syndrome when he gets near the temple. He thinks that he's the Messiah and he's gonna lead a revolt against Rome and he doesn't.

Some guy shows up at the White House with a pistol. He's gonna overthrow the corruption of the Obama regime, you know, and he's announcing all this stuff and foaming at the mouth. We don't follow that guy and found a religion based on him.

We pity him so it breaks down. Texturally, but but I have to admit I had some fun in that chapter. It's called how a well-meaning rabbi hijacked Jesus. Well, I know that in listening to that you you did the irony is Shmuley says a lot of things That seem to contradict themselves.

I mean at the one at the one hand you have this this Jesus who? Completely fails and what he's trying to do at the other hand. He has identified Christianity. How what's the terminology as the greatest idea the world has ever seen something along those lines is is that?

Oh, yeah, is that absolutely and it's very close. How do you how how do you put those two things together? I I I don't understand. How he can say those two things and say them seriously. To me, it's more of a humanistic approach to things like look at the inspiration of these Christians.

It's it's not based on dogmatic truth because based on dogmatic truth. You can't say the two at the same time. They are mutually contradictory but then Shmuley would also praise Islam and its positive nature and and and say that Islamic terrorism is not representative of real Islam without reckoning with the fact that according to the Quran the Jewish Torah is full of error and and is a Deceptive reconstruction as is the New Testament, so I would say it's based more on a humanistic appreciation than based on dogmatic textual truth.

Shmuley's Orthodoxy, Liberal Ideas, and the Book's Purpose

So just before I look at some of the things you said in the book from a from a theological perspective. Where would you put Shmuley as far as Judaism is concerned? I mean That's that's one of the things that has left me somewhat befuddled in listening to him is that it really seems.

Especially when you press him he becomes quite malleable. Right here. Here's the issue with Shmuley the greatest emphasis in Judaism is on ortho praxis. There are creeds obviously confessing God as one and Fundamental things in terms of who he is and what he requires of Israel.

Those are important. But it's often said in a caricatured way Judaism is the religion of the deed. Christianity is the religion of the creed. So ortho praxis is the big issue and Shmuley and all of his family live as orthodox Jews.

In fact, even with leanings towards ultra orthodoxy his wedding for his oldest daughter Mushki just got married in November November 1st. I think it was last year I was invited there and was able to fly in and attend the wedding in New Jersey.

And it was a Hasidic wedding. Shmuley was in full Hasidic garb. The men sat on one side the women sat on the other. The events for the celebration were two completely separate events. I've been with this whole family and his kids lead orthodox lives.

I've watched them go through their prayers after. After a meal I've been with Shmuley on the road when he's tired after a debate and he can't find anything to eat. We were trying to figure out how to get something kosher.

We've sat in a restaurant. Well, can you pack this in tin tin foil then? Can you heat it here? Okay, what what do you actually put in that oven? So in terms of orthodox lifestyle, he lives by the book.

He is a traditional Jew in terms of some of his thinking. He definitely has ideas that to me are more liberal most famously and this is something that we've debated most famously that. Because Judaism has 613 Commandments if you are practicing homosexual.

You cannot practice two of the Commandments one is to be fruitful and multiply and the other is not. For man to lie with a man, right? So he says you might as well keep the rest of them that you should be an observant Jew if you've tried to change and you can't.

Then be an observant Jew and keep all the other Commandments and observe the Sabbath and keep the dietary laws and say your prayers and so on. So, of course that gets him a lot of scorn in the orthodox community.

So in terms of thinking mentality much more liberal in terms of lifestyle thoroughly orthodox. So doing 611 is gonna get you there. Oh. Well, the idea is everyone falls short and everyone repents and ask God's for ask God Receives mercy from God and that God kind of gets you in where you are.

So the heaven hell in out black and white right that we have and that I would say scripture has He and other Jews would not hold to okay. All right. Well. Unique perspective there. So you write this book and now is the presentation that you make of the Messiah ship of Jesus is all of that the vast majority of that most of that is.