Pat Abendroth Interview (Part 1)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Family Background, Seminary, and Federal Headship

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and it is so wild today. You know, we have a little slogan. It's always biblical, always provocative, always bring your brother, not just brother in the Lord, but actual physical brother in the studio today.

Brother in the studio. Hey, Mike. Glad to be here. Patrick James Abendroth III is in the studio today. How are you? In the flesh. Incarnatio. So, what we need to do today, Pat, is talk back and forth, and then people have to figure out, am I talking, or are you talking?

I'm talking. Are you talking? Now, our linguist, who has actually analyzed some No Compromise show with his computer deal, he, you know, corrects my English sometimes, and if I want to say D .A. Carson says, Jean, and he'll say, no, the Canadian special treatment is this or that word.

And then if I say et cetera, some people write in and say, no, that's et cetera. So you have been raised with the same set of parents and the same bad public schools of Omaha, Nebraska, as well, so. So I'm wondering about dinner, where are we going to eat at?

Good thing I have married a wife that could help me with my English. Now your wife, Molly, how long have you been married? I've been married 22 years, same woman. Okay, how many kids? I know the answer.

Five kids. Five kids. Now, do they all love wakeboarding and bicycling? They all love wakeboarding, they all think bicycling is what dad does, I guess. Now, see, it's interesting because I'm nine years older than Pat, but we're so similar, even though we didn't grow up, we grew up in the same house, but I was already kind of out of the house.

And so it's amazing to me that God has saved both of us. We're both Bible teaching pastors, our theology is similar, you know, close to exact. We're bicyclists, everything else. It's weird when we live 1500 miles away from each other.

Bifurcation is what I thought you were going to say. Can you think of any theological points where we differ? It's okay, you can share your soul on No Compromise Radio. I'm going to ask you that question tonight, too.

What is it that we differ on? I don't even really know. You're coming along in your homiletics and ecclesiology and eschatology, so I'm not really sure and I'm not sure if homiletics is a theological position, but oh well.

Pat and I went to Master's Seminary together and we graduated the same day. I always tell people I'm happy that M comes before P because I graduated before Pat did. I always tell people I thought about having my name legally changed just so I could walk across if I was like Andrew Abendroth, it would have been better because then I could have won.

Tell us about your schooling now down at Ligonier Academy. I just finished my last class at the Ligonier Academy doing the DMIN program there, so happy to have that done. My last class was Preaching with Dennis Johnson, it was a great class, I love his book on preaching.

And then dissertation time, I think 250 pages, something dealing with federal headship of Adam, and why that's important and what happens when you deny that and get yourself into all kinds of trouble.

Do you think, Pat, I went to Southern for my DMIN, everybody when I first was talking Demons need to be exercised and cast out. Now, I remember being exposed to John Murray's Imputation booklet, that's probably one of my top five books of all time.

But I don't think I really believed in federal headship while I was at Master's Seminary. I don't know if that's Master's Seminary, it was Zemeck not teaching that. What do you think, Pat, when did you come to embrace federal headship in Romans 5?

Not Seminole, not Melchizedekian, in the loins. When did you believe in federal headship? I think the first time I was exposed to even the issues was when I was at Master's Theology class with studying theology there at Master's.

We had to read Murray's book, Imputation of Adam's Sin, maybe the hardest book I'd ever read up until that point in time, maybe even now. Oh yeah, you had Sorrells, that's right. I did, I had Ken Sorrells, and was exposed then and there, and made sense, and read Berkhoff's Systematic Theology at Master's Seminary, so that's been the view I've held.

Preaching the Word as a Heraldic, Authoritative Task

Okay, well maybe I'm the one who is the late bloomer. All right, well tell me a little bit about your preaching philosophy. When the modern mode of operation today is kind of sharing and relating, and it's a dialogue, and you don't want one person up there just preaching away, do you?

Let me share a little bit about what I think about sharing, and how that's going to go. I was hoping you weren't going to say sharing, because then I was going to share about sharing, because I knew what you were thinking.

Yes, well, you know, we love to share about sharing. So what's your preaching philosophy, and where do you find it in the Bible? Preaching philosophy from the Bible is obviously going to be 2 Timothy chapter 4, where we're told to preach the Word, and it's kind of in a scary context, as you know, because it's in the presence of God as you stand before Him in verse 1, and it's a courtroom kind of scene.

You're going to be accountable for this as a preacher, as Timothy was, and so in light of what's coming, in light of who you're standing before, he tells him to preach the Word, which is interesting, because he authoritatively tells him as an apostle of Christ Jesus, so it's not an option, but then he authoritatively, with the authority of Christ, tells him to be authoritative.

He tells him to preach, to be a herald. So we can't live the gospel. We're not called to share the gospel. We're called to authoritatively make an announcement about God, and what He says, and what He thinks, and how He interprets truth, and so I want to put a smile on my face.

I want to be compassionate, thoughtful, gracious, all of those things, but at the end of the day, this is what God says. I have a message from God, and that's what preaching is. Pat, I think you do a much better job with the smile part.

I think you've got that mastered more than I do, where we proclaim difficult truths. Remember, they would say of Jesus, this is a hard saying, but it helps to smile a little bit, and so I think you've got the smile down better than I do.

See, that's a nice smile. You have the articulation, and I have the smile. You warm them up with the smile, and then you insert the knife. It's a little less painful that way. Well, you were talking about the courtroom kind of language.

I adjure you, or I solemnly charge you there in 2 Timothy chapter 4. Don't you think even in salvation, the courtroom model of salvation, justification, declaration, forensic imputation, the forensic model, the courtroom model is gone, and it's been replaced with a relational model.

So not only in preaching, but also in soteriology, does one come before the other? Is soteriology driving the pulpit, or vice versa? Interesting observation. Maybe that is the case. I'm not sure which one, but I do know—you know, both are important.

There is the family aspect, and God is our gracious, heavenly Father, and we don't want to overlook that. But it's not an either-or. They give us a false choice. Is it a family kind of relational thing, or is it courtroom setting?

And the reality is, so many times it's a false choice. It's both. The Bible teaches both. We need to emphasize both. Do you think there could be a possible swing towards something in light of—let me rephrase it—in light of the heavy emphasis on family setting, relational setting, eminence versus transcendence, and now people are thinking, no, it's judicial justification by faith alone.

Do you think that could go too far, or what would be too far? Are we going to go too far away from the family model? I don't know where the pendulum goes on the other side. I suppose—you know, you have maybe the angry preacher who's angry about things and loves to angrily preach about the doctrine of justification, and that's not helpful.

We're both recovering fundamentalists, so we can understand some of that. But obviously, we swing from one side to the other. But right now, things are way out of whack, and the cool, hip, N .T. Wright model is to downplay Christ—or to deny Christ-imputed righteousness.

It's to downplay the forensic, and it's to go the other direction. Pat, whenever I'm talking to young folks who—they want to do the right thing. It seems like their motives are right. They're young Christians, and they're in love with N .T. Wright because they have pastors who don't warn them, and they read an N .T. Wright book, and the guy writes well.

And I love to just throw out the quote of N .T. Wright—the sinlessness of Jesus is overrated. And I think I pretty much win every argument after that. It's kind of a conversation stopper, isn't it? Right.

Well, if you're going to not teach forensic imputation, then who needs Christ's life? Who needs the perfect work of Christ? We just need His great example, because it's kingdom living is what He gave us.

Preaching as the Top Priority of Pastoral Ministry

Talking to Pat Abendroth today on No Compromise Radio. Pat, let's talk a little bit about what pastors are called to do. Now, we have to be friends to people. We have to go visit folks in the hospital.

When I say have to, I mean, it's a privilege that we get to. I've been recently criticized that I said to somebody, I have to go do something. And that's what I have to do. I've been given a charge by God to go do these things.

But the top of the list is preaching. How do you work through, well, preaching's the most important thing I do, and there are many other things that I still have to do, but they have to fall in a far second place to preaching.

Think about when you are at your best, when the Spirit of God is working, when your brain is fully firing, when everything is culminating and coming together. No doubt, I know it is when you are preaching the Word of God.

That is your greatest discipleship time. People want to have good time with you. They want you when you're at your best. Well, they should be discipled by you every Sunday when there's the unique gathering of the unique people of God for the proclamation of God's Word.

Not sharing, not giving a Bible talk. You are there and you are preaching God's Word. And it's got to be the priority. And then pushback comes, and they say, well, that's fine, you're a good preacher, you spend a lot of time doing that, but I need someone to shepherd me.

Since you asked me a question, now I'm going to ask you a question. What about the difference between preaching and shepherding? What about that pushback? Well, before I answer the question, and I will, I'm looking at Mark chapter 1, verse 38, and Jesus had healed some people.

He gets up early, Simon and the companions search for Jesus. They find Him and say, I think, exasperatedly, since we have to do our adverbs correctly. I don't even know if that's a word, exasperatedly.

With exasperation. Just click accept when the red line is underneath it in Microsoft Word. I don't get many reds. I get lots of greens. Too many... Green means go. That's right. Too many passive sentences, but that's all right.

Everyone's looking for you. Then Jesus said, let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby so that I may preach there also. Still sick people, still needy people, still people who want to spend time with Jesus.

That's priority number one for the King of Kings, is to go and proclaim the truth about Himself. I think shepherding starts from the pulpit. I would argue that if there is not a good pulpit ministry, then you can do all the running around you want to, and it's not going to be real shepherding because it's not going to come from the foundation of a high view of Christ preached from all of the Bible, both Old and New Testament.

And so I think if you get the one, you get the other. But didn't it say? Isn't there someplace in the Bible, you know how that phrase goes, doesn't the Bible somewhere say that the people were like sheep without a shepherd, so Jesus visited them?

Didn't He pet them at that point in time and stroke their ego and do some... What about that? Well, when folks ask me questions, sometimes, Pat, they don't even know what they're talking about. They just make up a verse.

And so I always say, well, where is that? And, you know, in this particular case, they should go to Matthew. I think, I don't know, my guess is Matthew 10, compassion Jesus had, they were like sheep without a shepherd.

But they go, well, I don't really know. And I say, well, when you find the verse, if you show it to me, I can make a comment because then I can see the context. In third Nephi. See, I'm talking to Steve Cooley today, the ex-Mormon.

I'm sitting in the ex-Mormon's seat, so I hope I have my, never mind, I'm not going there. Now, I'm going to change gears here, but that's okay because there's no Compromise Radio and it's kind of a quick thing that we do.

Lutheran Background, Baptismal Regeneration, and Why to Leave a Church

Tell me about your background, and I know your background, but I want the people to hear about your Lutheran background, Luther, yes, and tell me, tell me, was any of your religious education good? If so, why?

Or what do you look back upon and say, do you know what, this ELCA church, LCA, whatever what it is, it did a good job and such and such. Was there anything that you look back on with affection? Well, I can remember at one point in time, taking the non-dairy powder creamer, and I was doing there at the church what you taught me to do, and that's to light a match first and then to slowly start pouring the non-dairy creamer on more and more until there's a big, big flame.

And I remember the pastor saying, boys, you shouldn't do that. And so he was right. We shouldn't have been doing that in the church building. So I'm so thankful for that ministry that he had in my life.

Do you know, Pat, I found Marcy's sermon not too long ago. Marcy, our sister? Yes. Uh-huh. So Pat is, what, how old are you, 44? 44. Marcy's 49, I'm 53, and Marcy is a lady, and she is a really neat lady.

I like her a lot, but it was one of those youth Sundays, you know, the youth takeover, and you give the worship service to the novice folks and, you know, all the unbelievers run the show. Anyway, Marcy preached the sermon that week, and so I think the ELCA was ahead of their times blazing the trail for women's rights and stuff like that, and so I listened to it, and I'm not blaming Marcy, because we laughed about it, but it was kind of one of those, do better, be good.

Jesus was good, Jesus was nice, so we should be good and be nice, isn't that nice? I was on Brandon House's show the other day, Worldview Weekend, and it's in the Midwest, lots of Minnesota, Wisconsin, you know, places where they have those jello salads where the pretzels at the bottom.

Hopefully no onions. Yeah, and then they have those other things too, the tater tot casseroles, have you ever had one of those? I've seen one before. I've seen one. I'm a born witness. And so, a guy had a question about, well, you know, my church basically preaches the same thing every week, it's a Lutheran church, and I think I need to go.

It was in the context of when do you leave a church. And so, I said, if it's anything like the church I was at, even though I was thankful that the Lord used it to teach me what are the books of the Bible, to teach me that God is triune, and Jesus is God, He was raised from the dead, I mean, they did basic things like that, and I'm thankful I had that education versus a Buddhist education.

But it was always assumed that you were born again, because when you believe in baptismal regeneration, when the water goes on the head, you're made new, well, there's no need for a call to repentance, no need for a call to faith, so I thought I was in there.

And so, if your church doesn't preach you must be born again, because it's always saying you were when the water hit your head, I told the guy, you gotta go. Great advice. Also, some other things, think about when you walk in, if there's an altar in your church, it's time to turn on your alter ego and go somewhere else.

Why would I say that? Well, when people call folks up to the front of the church for salvation and decisions and decisional regeneration, you've gotta call them up to someplace, so you gotta call them up to the altar.

To the altar, because where there's an altar, that means there is also sacrifice, and there's no business having any sacrifice in any church, because there's a once-and-for-all sacrifice made. Read Hebrews 7, read Hebrews 9, read Hebrews 10, and Christ has made it, and there ought not be any of that, and if there is, surely we're going to be confused about the gospel.

Pat, tell our listeners as they walk into a church building, we understand that the church is not the building and all that, but when you walk into a building, we call it the church sometimes, okay, I know it's erroneous, but you walk into a building and you look at the sanctuary, maybe you don't want to call it the sanctuary, maybe you call it the auditorium, the gathering place, you know, the old folks used to say the meeting, this is where the meeting's held, but when you look around, what can you notice about a church just by sight, what they have, what they don't have, for instance, altar, what else could you notice without having anything start up, the music doesn't play yet, there's nothing else, you're just looking around, what could you notice in a church by sight only?

Well, hopefully you're going to walk in and you're going to see what is priority number one for the church, and you're probably going to see a cross, I don't mind video screen, but if we're all about the proclamation of one thing, I hope there's a cross in the church, and not that the Bible says there has to be one, but usually when Christian churches don't have one today, it's because they don't boast in Christ.

Means something. It means something. I'm not talking about you're renting out the DMV building, you can't put the cross in there, but if you own your building, a cross would be a nice thing to have. And I remember talking to you early on, just when things were starting to make sense spiritually, about where the pulpit's placed, and now we might not even have a pulpit, but used to be, you and I would talk about, is the pulpit in the middle?

Not a guarantee, but if it's on the side, a guarantee, the Word of God is probably not priority number one, right? Well yeah, because we grew up, there were two pulpits, right, you had a little pulpitette, and that's not where my sister preached, our sister, but I think that was the lectern for maybe announcements.

You know, things like scripture reading, lesser things like that. But once again, it's because there's an altar in the middle. Pat, one of my all-time memories that I have at Calvary Lutheran Church there on 84th Street and Maple, I think it was, is that Dad was sick, died of cancer, it was 1988, 88, 89, and they said anybody that wants to have special prayer can come up to the front, the pastors will pray for the families who need special prayer, and they did it for us, but they just didn't want to say, Abendroth's come up, but Mom said it was kind of a rain.

So I was, you know, glad to be prayed for and everything, and I think we had Pastor Ellison and Pastor Gruber, and I remember Gruber putting his hand on me, and they were all speaking in tongues and stuff.

That's all I remember, I remember sure about Ahonda. But that's not what Gruber said, it was a lizard kind of snake, that he had to have his tongue kind of out between his teeth, so if you put your tongue out a little, bite your teeth on your tongue, but not too hard.

And I didn't know what to expect, because, you know, charismatic movement was making its inroad even in the dead mainline churches like the Lutheran Church, and so I just thought, what do I do? I just stood there and kept my eyes closed.

Thought that's what you're supposed to do, I guess, bizarre. I know. We're talking about things in life and ministry. Pat, when I think to myself about effeminate preachers, my pastors back at the Lutheran Church, I now consider effeminate, not because they were homosexual, they were both married, and then the ones after that were married, but because they preached an effeminate gospel effeminately.

Masculine Preaching, Gender Confusion, and the Appeal of a Man's Church

So let's talk about good news a little bit. I think good news is good news in content and delivery, and if you have a high view of God, then I think that's the right view. If you have a low view of God and only an eminent view, it seems too effeminate for me.

And of course I love femininity, I just don't like femininity in male preachers. And I'm even wondering if it's all the more rage today because you're trying to appeal to a whole new kind of audience that likes effeminate kinds of people.

I just watched a sermon, I watched it on video, and not only did the guy have a pink shirt on, and I don't mind that, I like pink shirts, I feel pretty comfortable in my masculinity, but not only that, it was just Jesus, and Jesus, and a major marketing kind of church coming out of Willow Creek, and I was wondering, is this a marketing ploy?

I don't know, but if the Word of God is to be proclaimed with authority, it's not going to be in some sort of effeminate kind of way. Well, when you think of the preachers of the Bible, I don't think of being feminine.

I think of John the Baptist, I don't know what he looked like, maybe he had a squeaky voice, but that guy was a man, right? Because he was the voice crying in the wilderness. Let's share together. Our culture, Pat, you know this, it's all transgender, it's all asexual, it's all unisex, it's all Calvin Klein 1 stuff, that smells okay for me, but it's just all guys have to act like girls, you know, guys can't be guys anymore, you have to communicate like a woman, talk like a woman, do all this stuff, and then preach like a woman too, I just refuse to do it.

I think I remember telling you this before, probably not on the radio, but I met with a guy one time and he said, I've got to tell you what my wife thinks of the church, and I braced myself and I thought, uh-oh, and this guy was kind of complaining, and he said, my wife thinks that Omaha Bible Church is a man's church.

And I was just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and he said, and she loves it. Isn't it amazing when you have mature ladies, they love males who honor the Lord Jesus and serve the King, 60 of churchgoers today, evangelical churchgoers, are ladies, and so I'm glad ladies go to church, right, they're equal in Christ, but I love ladies who see their man, see their husband, see their sons, serve the King.

Talk about getting a woman fired up, that'll do a lot more for a woman than sitting around reading some Oprah book. Because it's an appeal to what's true, so a man is supposed to act like a man, and when a woman is inclined to embrace the truth, the truth of God's Word, she's oriented to the truth, she's going to see a man acting normally, and so I think that's what that's about.

By the way, who do you think the most masculine preacher on television is? Joyce Meyers. See, we're too much the same. We've been talking to Pat Abendroth today, you can go to omahabiblechurch .org, they got a new website, you can hear him speak, he'll be at the conference this week, pull up bbcchurch .org.

Pat, thanks for being here today.

Good night now. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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