August 31, 2018 Show with Josh Buice on “What Is Social Justice” PLUS Eli Ayala on “Angels, Demons &Satan: What Are They? What Are Their Roles, Powers & Limitations?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your.

Own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this last

day of August 2018, October 31st and I am

delighted to have two returning guests on the program today, one per hour.

The first hour we are going to be blessed with the presence of Pastor Josh Bice.

He's an author, a conference speaker and pastor at Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

He's also the founder and director of the G3 Conference which we'll be talking about a little bit since I will be

heading there, God willing, in January to man another Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth there.

And our first hour the topic will be what is social justice.

We've dealt with this issue a number of times but I think it's so important that it bears

being repeated as a topic by different guests and it seems to be pressing very heavily on

the minds and hearts of a lot of my friends who have been guests on this program who request to

speak on this issue.

The second hour my friend Elias Ayala returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

He is on the board at the Historical Bible Society founded by

my friend and client Dan Buttafuoco of the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates and he's going to be

speaking about angels, demons, and Satan.

What are they?

What are their roles, powers, and limitations?

So that's during the second hour but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio, Pastor Josh Bice.

Good to be with you Chris.

And for our listeners who have not yet heard you on the program and they may be unfamiliar with Praise

Mill Baptist Church of.

Georgia, why don't you tell our listeners about that church?

Yeah sure.

And I have the

privilege not only

to show where my wife and I grew up as

children.

Praise God and now tell us.

Something about this exciting conference that I will be attending for the third

time, God willing, in January.

I don't know how many times in total you have done this but tell us about the G3.

Conference.

Yes, so the G3 conference is an annual theology conference in

Atlanta each January and for the theme you might

say.

And so we're going to be

looking at things related to what it means to

carry out the Great Commission, not only individual congregation,

and how we

should...

And I will be announcing different names who will be speaking at that conference in a bit

and also you're going to be hearing some ads by some of my friends who will be speaking there

including James White and Phil Johnson and Todd Friel who have all created

ads for the G3 conference specifically for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Well you wanted to discuss today social justice and you have as the

exact theme, what is social justice?

So that's a good way for me to start.

The interview.

Yeah, absolutely.

So social justice, we need

to...

Is it

really...

I think one of the things that we hear in Christian circles often is that, you know, if you

really want to get attention idea

or whatever it might be, then you talk about the fact that this is a quote -unquote.

So I think that, you know, it should be asked from the very beginning, is social justice a

part of the gospel?

And so my answer is going to be simply that it's not.

This movement in and of itself is not really...

We think about social justice, we hear a lot of people talking about Oprah.

We've held back

flourishing or we've held back, you know, women from...

So we've seen this type of idea and this

language that's become very popular in our American culture for many years, moving its way through the

civil rights movement and that type of thing.

And I'm not suggesting at all, by the way, thing to do with

that or that it was negative or that it was

sinful.

There are lots of ideas and very much alive and

well in the civil rights movement that have become in

vogue methodologies,

type of idea that

you have to apologize to the

women, to apologize to different...

Apologize to even what's now being termed, which I believe to be a false category,

the LGBT and held them back from flourishing.

When we think about social justice, this movement

is a very pop's clothing, if

that makes sense.

Yes.

Well, let me start off a follow -up question.

With the LGBTQ category.

The uprise of social justice rhetoric seems to be coming

from within theologically reformed circles, especially those who happen to be

our black brothers and sisters in Christ, although certainly many who have more

melanin content than you or I do are not at all a part of this.

And we thank God for men like Daryl Bernard Harrison and

Dwayne Atkinson, and I could go on and on listing names of brothers who want no

part of this movement.

But would you say that this LB, or I always get the acronym messed up, but

LGBTQ, I think it's what it is, are the brethren

from our circles, or should I say those that are closely related theologically as far as the

doctrines of grace, as far as those who seem to be predominantly coming from very conservative,

reformed Presbyterian backgrounds, are they the ones who are also

including LGBTQ as a category of people that need

to be flourishing in the church?

Well, I was criticizing it at one

point.

I think the problem becomes when you have really good voices, really good, capable theological

minds that have become silent about these very matters.

And so when you have something like the Real

Presbyterian Church, which was advocating the very ideas of queer culture

and redeeming queer culture and the whole idea of LGBT Christianity,

there was an awful lot of silence when it came to that very conference, when there could have been very capable

minds who would have spoken up and said, you know what, not only is this not good, but it's very

unhelpful and it's an unbiblical category in and of itself.

So again, once we start going down the road of questions,

if we're going to remain silent about the category of

LGBT Christianity, if we're going to remain silent about the danger of that type of

idea, then we're not helping the oppressed, we're actually aiding their oppression.

When

you say that to begin to champion the cause of

the LGBTQ community, so -called, that we are further

oppressing them, are you saying that we are

aiding and abetting in their being oppressed by this very sin that dominates their life, the very

sin that they choose to identify their lives with?

They are attaching it to their Christian identity, just like someone might

say, I am an Italian Christian, I am a Yugoslavian Christian, I'm a

Swedish Christian, and I'm a gay Christian.

Are you saying that we're aiding in their oppression by the fact that we are softening the

warnings to them that they must repent, flee from, and abandon

connection to that thought, life, and behavior?

Yes, absolutely.

So in other words, if we're.

Going to allow them to continue to be identified as a quote -unquote gay Christian, I think that

that's troublesome in inviting light in darkness.

We're allowing them to remain in darkness, and so our job is to be

people of the light rather than the

darkness.

Again, if it's not good as far as our political

maneuvering is concerned, then that's problematic.

We need to be helping these people by pointing them to the gospel of Jesus.

Amen.

Well, if we, for now anyway, remove the LGBTQ

aspect from it, you're really talking about people calling

for social justice in regard to the color of their skin or their

ethnicity, and the battle cry, it

seems to be, is that our society, in America especially,

is dominated by a white supremacist

attitude that is dominating the Caucasian culture,

and that even would include the Caucasian element within

evangelicalism, which is probably numerically the dominant segment

of the body of Christ, even though I agree with my friend, our mutual friend Dr. James R. White,

that we have to be colorblind, and we have to not be thinking of ourselves as white and black Christians and so on, but

if you're going to bring this into the discussion on social justice, we have to speak in terms like that.

So basically, this is a call to us, who happen to be pale

-faced, to have some kind of a group

repentance, and even individual repentance, over the sin of racism, even

if that has not manifested itself in our lives individually in

any particular alarming way.

I mean, we are all sinners, including our black brothers and sisters and every other color

and ethnicity within the body of Christ.

We're all sinners, and some of that sin might be involving the

pride of our own color or ethnicity in a way that causes us to

look down on somebody else who differs from us.

That may be a remnant sin that's lingering around in some measure, but it doesn't dominate our lives.

We have to recognize that we have to repent of every sin that we know of that we are

truly guilty of, but this is being exaggerated to the point where, by virtue of us

having a lack of melanin content in our skin, in other words, the fact that we are light

-skinned, we are automatically to be viewed as being guilty of racism in

such a manner where it actually affects how we act and think in a

major way.

Am I right on that?

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

I think you're tracking.

Down the right road there.

I think as a cat of itself,

again, I would like to use the train illustration, so I find this to be helpful

when explaining the...

I think if you have the engine

okay, that's the agenda, that's the movement, and then the first shipping container

behind the engine is going to be race relations.

It's going to be the whole racism issue.

The second shipping container is going to be the oppression of women, and that's where we're going to carry in

is on the egalitarianism and all is

going to be the LGBT Christianity, which is, again, a false category,

but all three of those crying out victim or

crying out, and so now what we must do is we must

aid in by reversing their oppression, so we

empower them positions based upon the fact that, you know,

we should have a certain number of people that have, you know, a different

denominational rank, a certain number of women who make up

denominational ranks, and we should not hold them back from, you know, flourishing and using all of

their gifts for the glory of God.

Very much alive and well, but now coming on the heels of that would be the gay Christianity crowd that says, hey, now we want a seat at the

table as well.

Higher issues through evangelicalism,

this is not a Presbyterian thing, this is an evangelical issue.

It must be addressed.

All of these complex issues related

to are very much alive and well and

very much near the nerve center within many local churches, and that's the issue of women and their leadership role.

All right, well, I think that, to be honest, that we have to recognize

that the problems that we have in our present day in regard to race

relations do have some kind of root in the

fact that there was a systemized,

legalized, and established racism in this country going back

to the 70s and, of course, escalating even more severely prior to that, especially,

you know, the 60s, the 50s, and earlier, where you had, you know, Jim Crow laws, where you had,

you know, I was born not long after blacks

in many states in this country received the right to vote.

So, I mean, we can't be blind to the fact that there was a sin, and I'm not saying that the

sin is vanished from the earth, it's just that we have to remember it's not just a sin that

white people are guilty of, but how would you say, for instance,

that this issue would be properly, as a Christian,

responded to, especially back then, where the gospel

was not eclipsed, or clouded, or muted, or twisted?

Because, to be perfectly honest, it's obvious that many of the white churches in the

United States were sinning, either by being militantly opposed to the

equality of our black brothers and sisters in Christ and others of different colors, or they were

cowards who just didn't want to come out and publicly say that.

And, you know, people would actually complain to Martin Luther King Jr., who, I agree

with you, that he should not be considered, by any stretch of the imagination, a

Bible -believing Christian, because there's no clear, irrefutable evidence that he ever repented of

the heresies that he held to very strongly, such as a denial of the duty of Christ, a denial

of the substitutionary atonement of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and so on.

But, if you're just talking about the civil rights issue,

white pastors and clergy would complain to him that he

was trying to move things too fast, that he had to be more patient with

civil rights rising up in our country in a more gradual fashion.

And he was basically saying that, I don't even want to be doing this, but it's because you have remained

silent about it, and still remain silent, that it compels me to do this.

And, of course, that was a paraphrase.

But, I mean, on a human level, if you remove Christian theology from it, you could see that as a

reasonable response from King to the white pastors that he was communicating with, couldn't you?

Yeah, I mean, I want to be.

Very clear.

I don't believe that, think

that they accomplished some really good things.

I think that there were necessary, by

and large now, way on the other side

of seeing now a bi -ethnic, you

know, lots of really good leaders who have, some not so good, in my

opinion, but at least, you know, that they weren't marginalized or held back

to their skin color.

And so what I would simply state is,

almost as if we're back to

that.

When I look at the evangelical culture at large, it's difficult

sometimes for us to look at the entire culture, because

when I look at, say, the Baptist circles, I don't

see that we're holding back people of color, or black men, or even women, from

serving in their God -given roles.

I simply see that we're trying to be biblical and stand on specific...

I don't think that we need to apologize to women.

I don't think that we need to apologize that we've not allowed them to speak at conferences to mixed audiences, or

to preach on, you know, at a gathered church,

applying the office of elder.

I don't think we need to apologize for that.

So I think that, back to your initial question, Chris, I think that the answer,

called savvy, or the different methodologies, or intersectionality,

or anything else, I think that the answer is the gospel of Jesus.

You see a need to try

to utilize these different methodologies to create this

unity, or to create this lack of oppression within evangelical circles.

I see that the scriptures alone are sufficient.

I agree, and I do believe that especially the pastors that

preceded us for decades, who happened to be white, many of them, I'm not going to broad

brush, I'm not going to be guilty of the same thing that's happening today in the social justice movement, with broad brushed

accusations, but many of the pastors from behind pulpits were not boldly

preaching against the wickedness and sin of racism, just as we need to preach

out against abortion, and homosexuality, and every other sin that blots

the reputation of this nation, and the church in this nation.

But the issue that I find troubling is that

I happen to believe, and I'm assuming that you would agree with me, I'm pretty confident you would agree, that

racism is a very wicked and evil sin.

In fact, if it dominated somebody's life, I would question very seriously that they were

saved if they were claiming to be a Christian, especially when you're reaching severe levels of

racist thought and activity, like somebody actually being in the Klan, or the Kinnist group,

or one of these other racist organizations.

But the thing that troubles me is because of the fact that I believe racism is so evil and vile,

I am troubled that many of the voices from our black brothers and sisters who are championing

social justice, they are using, in my opinion, very often racism

itself to combat racism.

Is that too

far of a

leap that I just made?

I think that you can easily turn this whole thing into a reverse racism type of agenda.

I'm not saying that's the case for everyone involved, and I'm certainly not stating that that's the case for even the

most well -known voices, but I am suggesting that as this thing continues to

go unchecked, that you're going to see lots of other people that are going to swing this thing so

far to the opposite direction that it's going to.

Land in a reverse racism position.

All right, we have to go to our first station break now.

If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Josh Bice on social justice,

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I look forward to hearing

from you with your questions.

Please only remain anonymous, as I said, if you are asking something of a personal and private nature, so otherwise give us

your first name, city and state, country of residence.

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This is IRBS Theological Seminary.

We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ

is God in the flesh, who came to save sinners by his life, death and resurrection, and that the task of the church is to

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And uh how is the social justice uh

movement different from a very common

tenet within reformed christianity that has existed for centuries

in varying degrees.

Uh there there is even disagreement amongst uh reformed christians

on what level of activity.

Uh changing the culture uh involves.

Uh but you have you have long had an idea that the

gospel is not only intended to save lost

souls uh to get individuals to repent of their sin

to cling to their one and only hope jesus christ and his redeeming

death on calvary and his resurrection as their one and only hope for eternal life and to see

multitudes rescued out of darkness and brought into eternal life by christ through his grace.

Uh but there has also been a very common thread amongst calvinists and

reformed christians that when these people are indeed regenerate that

we have evangelized and that have been raised up to new life by christ himself by his grace

that cultures do change.

That uh i can still remember my friend peter jeffrey from wales who

is now in eternity with christ.

But he was speaking uh at the congregation where i was a member of the welch revival.

Where in wales you had a revival in the 19th century and perhaps

early 20th century where uh after miners coal miners were getting saved

uh they were returning the tools that they stole from working in the mines.

And there were so many tools uh that were being returned that there was a problem by the the

mine owners on where to store the extra tools that came up that appeared out of nowhere because of the fact that

people were returning them.

But there was there is culture change when when people get saved especially when they begin

becoming saved in mass.

How is that relationship to the gospel different from racism when we

are preaching the gospel.

How is this social justice movement different from what i just said.

Well i think that one of the main reasons that

it's different we have is

very much uh interested in in utilizing political ideas and

methodologies so like intersectionality which is a particular method that uh

was coined uh years ago in the late 80s by a woman named kimberly crenshaw

and her idea was that as she was trying to aid the oppressed

uh homosexual woman a lesbian she was suggesting that

there is a woman in our culture today that just by the mere fact that she's a woman that she

is.

And then if you add and now if

you add a

first woman is black but now she's also a lesbian

where they intersect that intersection unity of

oppression for that particular individual.

Which of who that individual is according to kimberly crenshaw

when you have that type of idea that's circulated in the culture that's now being brought into

evangelicalism that suggests well because i happen to be now i

need uh that much more liberation so i need you

to liberate me and so their voice now takes

priority over everyone else's voice and now we have a movement that's

helping that individual sectionality.

Or do we need the christ.

So i appeal to paul and we see him to

the jews and their privilege

to apologize because of the fact that we were born white in america

and the question what do we see

paul definitely

privileged people that they had the or and given the commandments

they had been given

for

life to the gentiles

and they you know that that they walked past them they

ignored them they they refused to minister to them and

so born with

them apologized for their privilege he asked them and caused them to repent

of not carrying out the great commission which again the covenant of abraham was never

just for when

we think about the reason that it's different from the example that you gave

it's simply because of the fact that we're not alone.

Now we're trying to think about these political

maneuver and i believe that

the script question from susan margaret.

In dauphin county pennsylvania she said i have heard that john macarthur is

identifying this social justice heresy as one of the greatest attacks upon the gospel

of jesus christ in modern history.

Would you concur with that.

I would absolutely agree that i i think.

In the last one to two hundred years.

Yes absolutely.

Now could you explain a little.

Bit in more detail why that is.

Yes so the reason is simply because of the fact that it's such a.

Fluid

apologizing for preaching a

truncated gospel and they're suggesting that they haven't preaching to

the gospel yet.

And the idea of woke is this idea that if you don't see systemic racism in evangelical

circles then you simply haven't been awakened to the reality that it's there now.

Let's just be clear uh there is no system that's made up of sinners.

But we must also be clear that the system of evangelicalism or denominational life

what whatever denomination or group of churches that you might associate with is

not uh there are

individuals who might be guilty of personal racism but not as a as a

system you know uh for

layers of complexity moving together in a very fluid complex.

Because now you have to ask yourself is the gospel enough or must we now add something

other than the gospel be made right.

You might have issues and

so now we have a

whole list of questions that must be addressed.

And so do we need a new definition of complementarianism.

And so this is not just the gospel itself that's under attack but it's the whole foundation of the

church in the crosshairs.

But now you have the other issues surrounding the gospel such as the role of women

and is lgbt christian agenda.

That's.

I have uh let's see here.

We have ronald in eastern suffolk county long island new york and ronald says shouldn't

one of the brightest red lights that is flashing before our eyes.

As far as a warning about this social justice movement is that it seems to be mirroring

what the pagan society around us is complaining about and what they are

charging society with especially those who happen to perhaps have white skin.

Shouldn't that be a troubling factor when the most rebellious against christ who

are among us are seemingly saying the same things as the just.

Social justice warriors champions are saying yeah yeah absolutely.

Um again i think

that what is the definition.

And then who's making this statement.

Are they still

within the orthodox camp.

But they're just making some.

But yeah i think that we need to evaluate and uh examine everything that's being

stated through the lens of the gospel to be very clear as to where our.

Land on this very amen.

And we have.

Uh let's see.

John and banger main says.

Would you agree that one of the problems with the social justice rhetoric is that it

forces those who happen to be white into a corner where we sound as if we are proud

and arrogant and self -righteous merely by defending ourselves that we are not racist.

Yeah i think that that's again one of the.

Massive problems with the social justice movement is the idea that there is this uh

that there's white privilege.

And let's just be honest when we start to champion that idea we have at that very moment we have created

another category called black privilege.

Because right you have when you have someone that says uh there's this category of white privilege

that's driving uh the the political system in america and the evangelical system

uh in our particular context go with that.

We need to be very clear that at that moment you have now elevated another skin color.

Their voice now takes priority over everyone else because now they're the victim.

And so i like to say it like this in evangelical

circles has now replaced theology and that's a serious serious problem.

And then we've already even seen very recently in fact maybe yesterday or the day before

uh how this is actually coming to fruition with asian folks where

asian folks have lost opportunities in ivy league schools and so on because merely because of

the the color of their skin where black applicants were given a privilege over them

simply because of race or skin color.

Yeah yeah again that's what we call affirmative action.

That's uh taken on religious clothing so to speak.

And so we see that in evangelicalism today where certain schools and institutions are giving priority to

applicants simply because of the fact that they happen to have now let me be clear about

this.

Um i don't think that we should ever hold back

individuals.

And for

an individual who is now promoted to a position or elected to a

position they have to.

Honestly was it because of the because of the

it's given me that has placed me in this particular position at this time in history.

And so we certainly don't need that conversation.

It's not helpful.

It's very confusing.

Well uh i'd like you to uh in two minutes time really wrap up what you

most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regarding to this theme uh and then i

want you to uh give another plug to uh the g3 conference.

Uh i'm very excited about it as i always am but perhaps even specifically

uh in regard to those applying to register for uh

exhibitors booths because i really think that this above all past g3 conferences

there will be opportunities uh that are really overwhelming and exciting uh because of the

fact that you're expecting between four and five thousand people in january.

But but before we go to that if you could summarize what you most want etched in hearts and minds of our listeners about the

social justice issue.

Well i just want to simply drive home the point our god is

a just god.

Okay.

So if we want an accurate definition of justice we need to look at the scriptures.

We need to see.

The revelation of to see that god is

opposed has given us an accurate

understanding of what justice looks like.

And so when he saves us through christ jesus when he saves us through the blood we

need to understand that we have received grace

but yet the justice was fulfilled in the death blow of his.

So we need to understand what a proper understanding of justice looks like.

And then now as we're called to be people who love our neighbor as

ourselves we're called to be people who stand against oppression.

But let's be clear the gospel of jesus christ is what brings us together and bands us together

within the church of jesus christ.

Don't need the political maneuvering we don't need intersectionality.

We don't need to embrace ideas such as woke or lgbt christianity

or any of these other things simply need to be

champions and heralds of the good news of jesus christ.

And so as we think about the gospel itself god sending his son dying upon the

cross jesus coming to justice

being that salvation is

ours in jesus alone champions of the gospel of jesus christ.

And then this whole itself i believe is built upon a

foundation that is certainly not the rock

anyone else

apologize for what the

scripture is actually oh

praise god uh we have.

A question from.

I usually don't um give out full names but since it's a pastor i figured i'd give the full name

a pastor mike reed of grace fellowship church in davenport iowa.

He says i praise god for the clarity with which my brother josh speaks to this threat

to the gospel as well as your boldness in combating it.

Brother chris would you not agree that racism is a worldview that cannot be

acknowledged in the church.

Um i'm not sure if he means that should not be tolerated uh because obviously

racism exists in the church as much as we are saying that it's not the the dominant

sin of our country or church that it's claimed to be.

But i mean i'm assuming he means.

Tolerated by.

Yeah that's the way i take it as well.

I would simply state that i agree with that.

I think it's a worldview i think it's a sinful um uh manifestation of the depravity of the human heart.

And i i think that whether it be the idea

of first idea of seeking to

become so that you can have a privileged voice uh i think both

ideas are wrong and they should not.

Well uh if you could.

Give a quick plug to the g3 conference and tell people how they can register also not only to attend but for an exhibitor's

booth and what some of the criteria for that would be.

Because i'm i'm so excited about it i can't contain myself i'm not exaggerating.

Yeah great.

So um yeah we invite.

Uh various ministries or institutions uh denominational entities or

you might say colleges or seminaries if you have a specific ministry

the website you can look for.

Staff will meet periodically uh over the fall month

so we're email but again i think

they provide not only in

current missions within the

praise god

and that's g3 conference

.com.

G3 conference .com.

Also if you happen to be uh visiting or you live near uh

douglasville georgia and you want to visit praise mill baptist church or if you have family friends or loved ones that

live near there or are visiting there go to praise mill .com p -r -a

-y -s mill .com and that's the website for praise mill baptist church.

I am so thankful uh pastor josh that you were on the program today and i look forward to many

many future returns from you as a guest on iron sharpens iron.

Thank you chris.

It's been a privilege brother.

God bless you.

And don't go away folks.

We have elias aiella coming up in the second hour of the program uh eli

aiella is going to be talking about angels demons satan

uh what are their roles their powers and their limitations.

I think a fascinating topic awaits us so make sure you stay with us.

And if you have questions on angels demons and satan send in an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

This is our elongated break uh right now that we are going to uh please be patient with us as we take this long break that

grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us because they need to

localize iron chirping's iron radio in lake city florida by airing their own commercials and public service announcements.

So take this time uh to write in your questions to eli aiella about angels demons

and satan.

And you can also please i'm asking you uh very seriously and strongly urging you

to write down the information that our advertisers that that are sponsoring this program uh so that

you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

Because the more you patronize our advertisers the more likely they are going to remain our

advertisers which means the more likely we are going to remain on the air.

So please write down that information but as far as questions for eli aiella coming up for the second hour on

angels demons and satan send an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with eli aiella.

Hi phil johnson here.

I'm executive director of john macarthur's media ministry grace to you and i'm also an occasional guest

on iron sharpens iron radio so i'm delighted that my friend chris arnzen and i will be heading

down to atlanta for the g3 conference where i'll be joining james white steve lawson

voddie balcom mark dever conrad and bayway todd friel josh bice and a host of

other speakers to address the topic a biblical understanding of missions.

Chris arnzen and i hope to see you all at this very important conference from january 17th

through the 19th.

Make sure you stop by the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth to say hi to chris.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

See you there

chris arnzen.

Host.

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Hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris irons and on iron shepard's iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley

bible book service.

Todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them

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Unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and

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Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as todd and patty work

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That's cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com.

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Let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and you.

Can call cvbbs .com at their toll -free

number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 monday through friday between 10 a .m and 4 30 p .m eastern

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And whether you order by phone or online please mention chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio.

If you purchase fifty dollars or more with a merchandise and you mention iron sharpens iron not only will you

receive free shipping on your order of fifty dollars or more but you will also receive the book

from pride to humility by stewart scott absolutely free of charge.

Uh now we are moving on to a few uh upcoming special events that we want

you to attend if at all possible.

Uh first of all there's two events that i have personally arranged along with my friends at switzerland community church

in switzerland florida next week on friday and saturday september 7th and

september 8th both at 6 30 p .m that i hope that as many of you as possible will attend.

First of all on friday september 7th 6 30 p .m at the gordon conwell theological

seminaries jacksonville florida campus my friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries

and his dear friend dr michael l brown of the line of fire radio program and the fire school for

ministry they are going to be speaking together at gordon conwell on the theme a house mended

christian unity in a culture of outrage.

That's friday september 7th 6 30 p .m at the gordon conwell theological seminaries jacksonville florida campus.

For more details go to switzerland community church .org switzerland community church

.org.

Then the following night this time at switzerland community church a debate will be held god

willing that i have orchestrated uh where dr james r white of alpha omega ministries and dr

michael l brown of the line of fire radio program are together on the same debating team

debating against two practicing homosexuals who are also ordained ministers and

who are claiming that homosexuality is not under the wrath of god.

It is not a sin necessarily.

Perhaps they believe in some forms of it are but they are going to be debating on the affirmative

side of the debate.

The theme is homosexuality consistent with new testament obedience.

That's saturday night september 8th 6 30 p .m at the switzerland community church in switzerland

florida a nearby suburb of jacksonville.

For more details once again go to switzerland community church .org switzerland community church

.org.

Then coming up in november on the 9th and the 10th the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their annual quaker town conference on

reform theology at the grace bible fellowship church of quaker town.

The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include david garner ray ortlund richard

phillips timothy gibson and carlton wynn.

That's november 9th and the 10th at the grace bible fellowship church of quaker town pennsylvania.

If you'd like to register go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org click on

events and then scroll down to quaker town conference on reform theology.

Then coming up uh is the event you've been hearing advertised on iron trump and zion radio for a long

time now the g3 conference which will be held god willing from thursday january 17th through

saturday january 19th at the georgia international convention center

in college park georgia a suburb of atlanta.

They are expecting between four and five thousand people to be there.

The theme is the mission of god a biblical understanding of missions.

There will be a spanish speaking edition of the conference on wednesday january 16th.

So tell your spanish speaking and bilingual friends about that.

But the english speaking conference for the rest of the conference from the 17th of the to the

19th of january will feature such speakers as john piper stephen lawson vody baucom

mark dever conrad m bayway tim challis phil johnson of john macarthur's grace to you

ministry dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries the guest that i had for the first hour on this

program pastor josh bice uh todd friel of wretched tv and wretched radio

stephen j nichols who is the president of reformation bible college the college founded by the late

dr rc sproll and ligonier ministries and many more are on that roster.

To register to either attend or to have your own exhibitors booth.

Go to go to almost get my website go to g3 conference .com g3

conference .com.

Please tell all of these ministries and organizations that you heard about their events from chris arnzen

on iron sharpens iron radio and now the least favorite part of my

program that really gives me great discomfort to do but it's something that needs to be done.

If you love this show you don't want it to disappear.

Please donate to iron sharpens iron radio as much as you can and as often as you can go to iron sharpens iron radio

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Iron sharpens iron radio .com click support.

Then click click to donate now.

You can also uh advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe

it doesn't.

You don't have to believe identically with me.

You just need to be promoting something that's compatible with what i believe.

And just send me an email uh to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the

subject line chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we would love to help you launch an ad campaign that is also the email address where you could send in a question to elias

aiella who is our guest.

Now for the second hour uh elias aiella.

You could send the uh questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

We are discussing angel demons and satan.

What are they.

What are their roles powers and limitations.

And my guest elias aiella is a is a christian apologist.

He's a graduate of liberty baptist theological seminary where he earned a master of arts in

theological studies and master of divinity.

Uh he is a middle and high school teacher at valley stream christian academy on long island new york.

He's a youth director at massapequa reform church on long island.

He's a traveling speaker and team member at the historical bible society.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron trump and zion radio.

Elias aiella thank you for having me on.

I'm happy to be on again uh.

Let's uh find out a little bit more about the historical bible society.

Uh founded by my friend dan botafuco.

Uh tell us about this organization where you serve on the team.

Oh well dan botafuco has a wonderful collection of uh you know uh manuscripts

and uh hey of the kinds of things that he kind of uh has on display when he gives his talks.

I actually remember holding in my hand a texas receptus which is the text base that is used that was used

for the king james version.

So we have this amazing uh collection of of manuscripts and and pages from

very very old bibles.

I think he even has a a page from the gutenberg bible.

Um and so what he does is he goes around and he gives talks on the reliability of the bible.

And of course having the the various manuscripts and and books that he has i kind of add a very um

tangible um tangible experience of the whole thing.

So he focuses on the historical aspect and he has um hired me to uh focus more on the

uh apologetics aspect which kind of branches a little bit more beyond just the historical aspect

and theological topics.

Yeah and i have been uh probably to at least

five presentations.

Of the historical bible society that dan has led and i never got tired of it.

I never got bored.

He had me riveted to everything he was saying.

He does change it up a bit.

Not that the the facts of history change but he but he changes up the presentation a bit uh

every time i've seen him do it.

So it is always fresh uh and fascinating.

And uh he has a 1611 king james bible.

Uh he has uh just a an enormous selection of very valuable bibles and

uh religious books.

He even has uh a uh i don't know if it's a first edition but if it's not it's a close to

a first edition of fox's book of martyrs uh and and so on.

So i highly recommend that anybody listening if they want to find out more about the

historical bible society and how you can get uh dan to give his presentation at your

church uh at the christian school that you operate or some other organization

civic group and so on go to historicalbiblesociety .org historicalbiblesociety

.org elias.

Before we even go into our theme you are going to be speaking on the subject of our theme angels and demons

at an event i believe if i'm not mistaken at the massapequa reformed.

Church on long island.

Yeah a couple of times a month we have um well i hold i host a bible study called coffee

and questions and we'll pick uh a topic of interest and people can come in from anywhere and they could ask any question

they want um typically related to the topic that we're covering but people are free to ask anything they wish.

The study will be on september uh 15th

beginning uh at 10.

People come around 9 45 to get settled in but we begin at 10 and we end around 11 11 15 depending on the

nature of the discussion.

And uh it's open to anyone and if you.

Want more details.

Go to massreformedchurch .org.

Mass is a an abbreviation for massapequa.

Massreformedchurch .org.

Well the subject that we are addressing uh angels demons and satan uh

what are they.

What are their roles powers and limitations.

Uh this is an area that being theologically reformed uh and i've said

this before on my program.

I am somewhat dismayed that people from uh our circles of theological

fellowship uh calvinist reformed christians perhaps even the same could be said of

fundamentalists uh that uh fundamentals baptists specifically that these

areas are not really spoken of or delved into at any in any great depth.

Uh it seems to be areas.

They seem to be areas that are shied away from because we perhaps were

paranoid about looking like we're charismatic or pentecostal because of the fact that pentecostals and charismatics have

very often so uh overblown have such an overblown concentration

on these things uh that they get involved in sensationalism.

Very often they get involved in uh sometimes out out and out fabrications

of supernatural occurrences and so on.

But because of that fact we tend to shy away from these these matters.

But sadly uh that should not be the case.

We should not be overreacting to what occurs in a negative way uh these are very

important topics because they're biblical and the the dame the demons and satan himself are

active right now.

They're not they're not like asleep or they're not.

They haven't disappeared.

I'd like you to start off with uh the uh big daddy of them all

if you will uh satan there is.

I was actually surprised lately in my christian walk

to hear disagreement even amongst conservative reformed christians who

have delved into the issue of demonology and satan and lucifer at quite

in in quite a great deal a great deal of depth.

There is differences of opinion as to whether lucifer and satan are the same entity and so on.

What is your opinion from your research and your exegesis of scripture who who is

satan what and what is he.

Yeah well first.

Let's um let's define our terms um before we get to satan because

we understand satan as a fallen angel of sorts let's define what we mean by angel.

And i'm taking this from uh standard systematic text and i think it's a good definition a good starting point uh

angels are created spiritual beings with moral judgment and high intelligence but without physical

bodies.

Okay.

And so uh angels are created they are spiritual.

That means they do not take up space they are immaterial entities and they're personal.

They have rationality.

They think um again i like what you mentioned at the beginning there that within reformed circles we

tend to stray away from talking about these things um for the reasons that you laid out i think is one of them for

example you don't hear a lot of sermons when we talk about you know we do character studies for example

preaching about mary and the quality that she had as a as a faithful servant of the lord because it

tends to associate you know in our minds with roman catholicism things like that.

But you are very correct in that if something is mentioned in the word of god if if a statement a proposition

in scripture mentions angels and gives us information on it then that is part of the divine

commentary on reality.

Angels exist um as christians and even more specifically as a christian

um you know people on an intellectual level i am not ashamed of affirming the existence of spiritual

entities i affirm them i don't downplay them they're real.

And so i think we need to really including those aspects that tend to be

sensationalized and misrepresented and misunderstood.

We should have a very robust and and uh full explanation as to what the bible has to say about those

things and incorporate them within our fuller outlook on life.

And so we need to acknowledge those spiritual realities.

So if an angel is a created being and a spiritual being and a moral being with high

intelligence if we take a look at satan for example if satan is an angel then he would be a spiritual

created being with uh intelligence and rationality.

But of course on the other side of the goalpost so to speak he is a fallen angel an enemy of god

who does teach us that greater is he that

that's in me than he that's in the world but that our

enemy is a rational agent that has the capacity to devise schemes against us

should wake us up to the importance of having a spiritual strategy in our own lives to

combat the enemy on that spiritual level.

And i don't mean going around looking for the devil under every rock but but taking care of ourselves

spiritually recognizing that we're not only struggling against our own

malevolent agent that uh participates in in uh alongside

our weaknesses if you will and tries to exploit those things so that we're not as effective as as we can be and so

i think those are important kind of things to get out of the way first uh so what is what is the devil just

uh uh in summary he is a fallen angel and he is typically uh understood to be the

head of the demons the one who uh against god by trying to put

himself at the same level of god but was cast out of heaven and of course we know that there uh were others who who followed

in his in his stead what you mentioned in regards to um those other passages say for example in isaiah

or ezekiel um do i understand those specific passages about the

devil himself to be perfectly honest i don't know um that's a good question.

I i think that scriptures

are people in one level but there is a higher application that goes beyond what is

pointing to something uh greater just like the messianic prophecies where they often refer to

david but have kind of an another application that is relevant to the profession i think one could

argue in ezekiel and in isaiah where where it talks about uh you know the morning star

um there can be some application there but.

On a personal level i'm not really sure.

Now something that's interesting uh the 1689 london baptist confession refers to

elect angels.

Obviously the concept of election went beyond human beings.

It did also involve angels because obviously we have some that rebelled

and were thrown out of heaven and therefore uh traditionally

reformed christians would say that those that remain uh forever in heaven

even right now are the elect angels.

Because you don't have this kind of thing happening all the time where you have wars going on in heaven

where you have rebellious angels uh still uh at any given moment

rebelling against christ uh and then being thrown out and so really bolsters even the

idea of uh election uh the the doctrine of election

whereas an arminian or non -calvinist would have really less of an answer as to why those things aren't happening.

Now am i right on that.

Um i'm not sure i don't think that um that.

The rebellious angels that rebelled when they did i don't see why as i'm just thinking

about it why they couldn't rebel now and how that would affect one's perspective on election.

Remember election happened before the foundation of the world.

When god decrees right reality takes the shape that it does because of god's decree.

And so god uh decrees say you know who's going to be saved but that doesn't.

Uh that doesn't work against you know man sinning at the beginning and then of course man continually.

Rebelling throughout history well i mean when we were in heaven though i mean every tear is going to be dried.

Is heaven going to be a place where sin is present and in our future that awaits us.

Where there could.

No yeah yeah no i know i know what you're talking about in that regard.

I'm talking about say from the first sin to where we are now.

The rebellion at the beginning uh didn't have an effect on uh you know one's inability

uh to rebel later on.

I mean it was an inevitable offshoot of that.

I don't see from the text that because there was a rebellion back then that there cannot be a rebellion

now now.

I'm not saying that there will be.

I'm just saying based on the information that we have as i understand it.

I don't i don't see a necessary connection there.

Okay well uh i'm assuming you would believe that even if you opened up a

possibility for a rebellion to happen now you would think that that would come to

an abrupt end at some point because you don't think when we are resurrected at the last day

and we enter into heaven that's going to be a place where we're going to be possibly witness to wars going on

uh and at the same time you know a glorified christians in heaven rebelling and so on.

I mean uh it's that would be obviously not heaven at all if there was a possibility of

the uprising of.

Of enemies of christ in our midst in glory right.

When i see when for example when christ comes again and he is all his enemies are under his feet i would i

would imagine that even if hypothetically before that time an angel could rebel at that time

there would be no rebellion since all of his enemies are put under his feet and all of the angels that haven't rebelled constitute his

elect angels.

Um elect angels are angels that god has chosen to uh preserve from

rebellion.

So uh that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the ones that were not preserved had

to necessarily rebel when the first rebellion occurred.

Does that make sense.

Yes i understand.

But i think that my point still stands that the one who doesn't believe in election at

all has really no basis by which to believe that the heaven of our

future after the the final resurrection at the last day.

Why that a million years from now there might be a rebellion in heaven when when the

saints are already in the company of christ in glory.

That's what i'm saying.

That well that that would relate to it seems to me.

Uh i guess it is related to elect free will that if someone has free

will and glory ability to do something contrary to what they

otherwise do.

You know perhaps someone i've actually heard people say that it is possible to sin in heaven.

But it just so happens.

It just so happens.

Yeah that's what i that's exactly what i did.

But but it just so happens that god actualizes a world in which the people who are in heaven wouldn't.

Right it is right.

Right.

Okay.

Well it's just i mean we believe who we who are reformed believe that we are given a new

nature and we are given new hearts.

And while that is imperfect here while we're in heaven when we're in heaven that will be

uh brought to a perfected level of glorification so and so the i don't

think that the arminian consistently and logically can think through the ramifications of their view in

regard to not only humans in heaven.

But in fact i had a comical uh dispute with a roman catholic friend of mine who said that

uh the problem with calvinism is that we believe that god made humans robots.

And i said why do you say that.

And he said well if you don't have the free will to either accept or reject christ you're a robot.

So i said so i guess your ultimate goal in life is to be a robot yourself.

And he said what are you talking about.

I said you want to go to heaven when you die.

Right.

And he said yeah.

Isn't that your ultimate goal.

Yeah.

Well uh if you can't rebel against christ in heaven i guess you're a robot then.

Right.

And then he said maybe you can rebel against christ in heaven just like you.

Just like you said.

And rather than admit he was wrong or that he had a problem with his argument he went.

He went there.

Um but we're going to get more involved in to the roles and the powers and the uh

the limitations of angels demons and satan after we return from our final break.

If you'd like to join us on the air do so now or forever.

Hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Uh don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many

years.

His name is dan buttafuco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible.

Ravi zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy.

And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more

and in approximately 10 different states.

In illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york.

His case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you

call dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan buttafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800

-669 -4878.

Or email me for dan's contact information.

At chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

James white here co -founder of alvin.

Ministries.

An occasional guest on iron sharpens iron radio.

I'm so delighted my friend chris arnson will be heading down to atlanta for the next g3 conference from january

17th to the 19th 2019 where i'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme a

biblical understanding of missions.

Speakers include john piper steve lawson bode balkan mark dever conrad

phil johnson josh bice yours truly and many more.

I hope you all join chris and me for this phenomenal event.

For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

And the guest for the second half of the program today is elias ayala of the historical

bible society.

We are discussing angels demons and satan what they are what are their roles powers and our

email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Before we go to any listener uh questions uh i just want you to say a brief word also about

new york apologetics.

I understand that you're going to be involved in an event that they are running.

Uh yes um i don't have.

It in front of me but i don't remember the exact date but it's at the end of uh september.

It'll be posted on facebook if anyone's interested.

Um there's going to be a couple of speakers.

I am going to be covering the topic of apologetics mostly focusing on first

peter chapter 3 verse 15 and jude chapter 1 verse 3 and kind of taking it from there hoping to

encourage people to understand that if you believe the word of god the word of god includes the

exhortation to defend to defend the faith.

So that's going to be kind of my focus on on that event and the website for more details.

Is newyorkapologetics .com and new york is spelled out in two words don't abbreviate that

and you can get all of the details.

I believe it's called the upstream faith uh free conference so i hope

that you can attend that if you are able to all right now.

Let's uh go to a further explanation on our topic before we go to listener questions

about angels demons and satan.

You said that they are spirit beings.

They don't take up physical space.

Uh well what are what are their roles.

First of all i mean if god is the creator of all things that would include the fact that he created

uh entities that at least became uh demons and became

satan uh what what are the roles that they play in your uh understanding from

biblical exegesis.

My understanding if you.

Were to take everything that the bible says about the demise especially from the new testament.

The demonic is um and we can understand this through experience as well.

I think the number one task of the demonic realm is the distortion.

I think that's a very important we're not.

We don't normally see manifestations of demons walking around and physically assaulting people.

Or everyone walking around possessed you know unbelievers possessed and doing crazy things.

Although you know the scripture gives us a foundation for understanding demon possession

strategy of the enemy.

So i think one of the primary tasks of course jesus called the devil

the father of lies and so um i think.

That's very much connected.

And uh as far as angels are concerned i've had uh many people ask me this

uh.

Are angels uh sent uh from god or by god to protect his

children.

Christians uh are angels protecting us in ways that we don't even know when we step out into the

street and perhaps a car might have otherwise plowed right into us and killed us.

Are angels involved in our protection.

In that way and in other ways.

Oh i want to make a careful distinction because i know a lot of people talk about this but in the context of a guardian angel does god

assign angels to us from birth you know.

And then of course takes us to you know to the presence of god upon death.

I'm not sure that the bible teaches that we have lifelong guardian angels but there's definitely the notion in

that god can send angels to protect his people.

Um after how long the angel is assigned to a person.

Of course we're not really told but the bible speaks about.

One of the tasks of angels especially the book of hebrews is to uh is to watch over those who will inherit eternal

life.

Um and so there is there is this notion of watching over and protection.

Uh in regards to the the tasks of the angelic beings.

Of course to relay messengers as well.

The greek word angola.

Angola uh literally means messenger of protecting.

There is also the task of fighting in the spiritual realm.

The bible speaks about spiritual conflict.

Um but there is also relaying a message as we see for

example in the book of daniel where he receives a by the way i have

seen guardian angels with my own eyes.

In the subway system of new york city.

So i know that i of course am talking about that.

Uh i wouldn't call them vigilantes but you know i'm speaking i

actually feel a little safer whenever i see them around.

Um okay uh okay we have let's see here.

We have uh bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who asks a frequently asked

question what is your belief in regard to demon possession amongst.

Christians.

Yeah uh i think this is a really good question um i want to draw a distinction between

oppression it tends to be uh

demonic hostility.

What christians can be oppressed um in various ways um but i don't think someone

who is filled with the holy spirit can be possessed.

Jesus makes a reference to uh you know if you want to take over a man's house you need to bind the strong

man first.

If the holy spirit is the strong man that is in our house the house of our body um then i

don't see any plausible way that a demonic entity can uh can bind up the spirit of god

dwelling in a believer.

So i don't think uh that there is any ground both biblically and just logically speaking uh for a

christian to be possessed by a demon but definitely oppressed um and bothered and and

uh i would even use the word haunted um um in certain cases i've heard and i've even experienced

things myself where where i have been uh afflicted with fear and i've actually seen things myself um

when i was much younger when you say when you say seen things what do you mean you mean supernatural things.

Oh sure.

Yeah absolutely yeah.

Why don't you describe some of that.

Well okay um i'll i'll uh i remember this i was probably seven or eight and

the reason why i remember it so well is is that it scared the living daylights out of me at the time and the image is is

burning my in my in my head.

I remember i was having bad dreams and i couldn't i couldn't sleep and so i complained to my parents and my parents let me

um uh sleep in between them and i i felt just this constant feeling of

fear i had the covers over my head um and when i built up enough

courage on the wall when my parents were it kind of looked like a projector.

Like when when you have a projection on and you have like maybe like a a powerpoint or an image against the wall so it's like a flat

surface of this uh entity that that spanned from the floor to the ceiling

this this being that looked like eyes were were of uh

flame and i saw this thing for a good maybe screamed at the top of my lungs.

And of course as i'm sure as many stories would relate the lights go on and of course you know there's nothing there.

Um but i remember seeing that image.

Very vividly and you don't think this was just your your mind playing tricks on you.

As far as uh.

Shadows and light and sure sure sure um well i mean if if i remember it was a very clear

image i knew that i was awake since i couldn't go to sleep because i i was already having trouble sleeping.

I'll give you another example um i had a dream home and

the lights turned on by themselves in the dream.

And so in the dream i was concerned and i was like hey what's going on.

And uh these children ran into my room in the dream and these children were people from my

and they they uh they told me the lights went in our went on in our room and we don't know what what

door and this is in the dream.

Of course i locked the door and we all had this sense of in the in the dream and

so we began to pray.

And i remember as i was praying in the dream i had a very strong feeling that god wasn't listening in the

dream and i remember banging my fist against the bed saying god why aren't you listening.

And at that moment i looked up into the ceiling and the ceiling ripped open to this crazy funnel cloud

in the dream and i heard banging on the door that was so strong that it didn't feel like it was a

human banging.

But it something else and the banging was so strong that the banging in the dream woke me

up for real.

And when i sat up in my bed i began to hear people running all over my house and i remember standing up.

Now this part i'm awake and i was i remember very clearly i got up and i turned all the lights on in

my house and i sat in my living room as i heard um what sounded like maybe

15 to 20 people running in my house.

Now let me tell you i live in a two -story it was just me my brother and my

parents and this was in three let me make you

laugh real quick.

I'm 22 years old or 20 maybe 21 20 and i slept at the foot of my parents bed that night.

Uh and of course even if people.

Listening uh will dismiss what you're saying as having some plausible

explanation that did not involve the supernatural.

I have spoken with even the the least of sensationalist

uh christians and missionaries and others who either when they were in a lost state and involved

in the occult.

Uh i'll give you an example even aw pink.

Uh if if you read aw pink's biography by ian murray you will find out that he was involved in the occult

before he was a christian.

And he believes without question or believed i should say because he is no longer with us uh

that things that he saw and witnessed and experienced were not trickery or the acts of charlatans

or of uh you know plausible unsupernatural

explanations.

He believed that there were things that he saw that were truly supernatural uh experiences of the demonic.

And i have met people that were former mediums.

I've met people who are missionaries in uh south america and africa who have

experienced things that were unexplainable.

But uh these things i am convinced are real and.

Can be real.

Um listen chris just real quick.

I i again i don't use this ever as kind of like an apologetic

to demonstrate to people you know and in reality i don't care who believes me.

If you ask me the question have i had an experience i can tell you this was this was my experience but that's not any basis for

uh you know you.

You can come up with all sorts of uh naturalistic explanations it's fine but my experience is

consistent with my broader worldview and so i know what i experienced.

And it doesn't.

It doesn't jolt me in any way since i know that.

These things are quite possible given my biblical worldview.

Amen.

Well let me go to uh some more questions here from our audience.

Uh let's see here.

We have robert in westchester new york who says the classic

passage in hebrew chapter 13 verse 2.

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers for thereby some have entertained angels.

Unawares is often spoken of as if people could actually be down and having a

meal or some other social activity with an actual divine being

rather than somebody who is a messenger of the gospel.

Which do you prefer as a proper way of exegeting that passage meaning to be a

divine being or just someone who is an evangelist of some kind.

Um i i've understood that as meaning entertaining angels in the spiritual

being sense.

I don't have any reason to doubt that that's a possibility.

I mean we know that given scripture angels have appeared to people.

We know that they could appear in different forms.

Why.

Why not a mediocre form that is very normal as it appears to us you know.

Uh i don't see why that.

That's impossible to happen.

And i don't see anything wrong with having that understanding given that particular text and.

What we understand of angels in general.

Well having said what you did earlier about the very definition of these divine

beings that they are spirit if an angel in your opinion through your biblical exegesis if

an angel were to visit us unawares as the bible says and it is a divine being could you shake

that person's hand.

Could you have a meal with that person.

Were you seeing them swallow food.

Uh you know could you hug that kind of an angel.

Well that's that's a great question.

Because uh that goes into the very interesting notion that when an angel can matter if an angel can

manifest themselves in different forms what is the nature of that form.

Right.

Um if if it is a if it can manifest itself in a physical way uh what is the nature of

an immaterial being interacting with physical beings.

Or can a can a spiritual being create for themselves a physical body.

Uh that's a very interesting uh notion.

I'm surprised the question that wasn't asked wasn't in reference to genesis 6 where the the sons of god came into the daughters of men.

Uh because that touches on the that touches on the very same uh topic metaphysically speaking.

I i don't know.

Uh if you can shake the hand.

Um i'm not sure i don't know how that interaction uh works.

I do see problems with the notion that an angel can for example create for themselves a physical

body fully loaded with genetic material that can pass on their genes through sexual relations and things like

that.

Um i i don't know i think that that may be problematic.

I i'm not sure.

That's a great question.

I i uh i don't think there's enough information in scripture where i could be.

Conclusive.

Well i would recommend people uh to go to the iron sharpens iron radio archive because i have

done uh an interview with douglas van dorn on his book

giant sons of the gods.

Uh i think that will find fascinating.

I did uh.

That was from september 28th 2016.

You just if you type in van dorn two separate words that will come up in the iron trip

and xyron archive.

One last question that we cannot uh let go unanswered before we run out of time.

Uh there are people who uh have a totally unbiblical concept in their minds

of the devil.

Ruling and reigning in heaven i'm sorry ruling and reigning in hell.

Sorry about that.

Ruling and reigning in hell.

And uh after the judgment after the last day the devil is going to be the

king of hell where he is just having an eternal party punishing those uh

who are there.

You might have all kinds of wacky ideas where people are actually having fun there uh.

But they have this concept of the devil uh enjoying being in hell but that is a place

of torment for him as well as those who are damned.

Am i right.

Uh yes.

That's right the bible speaks in the book of revelation of the devil and his angels being thrown into the lake of fire.

Again this is one of the reasons why i wanted to do a bible study on this particular uh issue is because

a lot of our understanding of angels and demons is really informed by poppin and so

this is a perfect example.

You know uh even the idea that the devil is in hell right now i think is it is not a defensible

position.

The devil speaks about the powers of the air.

Uh the devil uh roams this way and that upon the face of the earth.

I think that is a very important thing to keep in mind that he's not just sitting somewhere

distant he's very near.

And that's why uh from a spiritual perspective we need to be prepared not only to combat our own

sinful desires but also that external one who roams around like a roaring.

Lion waiting to uh devour anyone he can.

And last but not least uh the devil i'm sure you would agree does not have any power to

do anything that god does not give him permission to do.

Amen.

That's right.

And you see this in the book of job as well.

It is uh uh satan coming before god asking permission.

In a sense.

Uh uh the devil cannot do anything.

Just not.

Not just the devil but anyone no one is able to do anything that is outside the decree of will of god.

It's a you don't have these beings just able to do whatever and thwarting god's plans.

And you know doing things that god would otherwise uh you know forbid by his decree.

So the devil doesn't do literally anything he wants.

Uh he is uh on a chain so to speak.

And according to god's own good and sovereign purposes he allows him to function in various capacities.

Um and also in accordance with his wisdom and counsel.

Uh he holds back that chain and does not allow him to do uh other things.

Well.

I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need in order to go to

your uh special events and also to get in contact with you first of all your uh event.

Your study on angels and demons uh.

You can find out more about that at massreformedchurch .org mass reformed church

.org.

You can find out more about the event that the new york apologetics ministry is running at

newyorkapologetics .com.

And that's spelled out in two words new york newyorkapologetics .com.

Of course the historical bible society founded by my friend dan buttafuoco.

You can find out more about that at historicalbiblesociety .org historicalbiblesociety .org.

Do you have any other contact information.

Um yes uh you can look me up on facebook.

I also uh started an apologetic ministry called revealed apologetics.

I know that most of your listeners um are most likely reformed.

Um i hold to a presuppositional apologetic methodology and uh revealed apologetics will be

an apologetic ministry that focuses very much on addressing uh things from that presuppositional uh

vantillion if they if your listeners know who that is a method of defense.

So you can look me up on facebook revealed apologetics.

You can also contact me at digging deeper 143 at gmail .com.

And um if you have any questions people can just contact me through their digging deeper

143 at gmail .com.

Yes and i have other contact information but i'm in the process of setting things up and then i'll i'll shift that information when the

time comes.

Well.

To thank you so much eli.

I look forward to frequent returns from you as a as my guest on iron trip and zion radio.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and lord's day.

I hope you all have.

I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you

are a sinner.