August 31, 2018 Show with Josh Buice on “What Is Social Justice” PLUS Eli Ayala on “Angels, Demons &Satan: What Are They? What Are Their Roles, Powers & Limitations?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this last day of August 2018,

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October 31st, and I am delighted to have two returning guests on the program today, one per hour.

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The first hour we are going to be blessed with the presence of Pastor Josh Bice.

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He's an author, a conference speaker, and pastor at Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia. He's also the founder and director of the

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G3 Conference, which we'll be talking about a little bit since I will be heading there, God willing, in January to man another

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Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth there. And our first hour, the topic will be what is social justice?

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We've dealt with this issue a number of times, but I think it's so important that it bears being repeated as a topic by different guests, and it seems to be pressing very heavily on the minds and hearts of a lot of my friends who have been guests on this program who request to speak on this issue.

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The second hour, my friend Elias Ayala returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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He is on the board at the Historical Bible Society, founded by my friend and client

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Dan Buttafuoco of the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates, and he's going to be speaking about angels, demons, and Satan.

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What are they? What are their roles, powers, and limitations? So that's during the second hour, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Josh Bice.

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Good to be with you, Chris. And for our listeners who have not yet heard you on the program and they may be unfamiliar with Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, why don't you tell our listeners about that church?

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Yeah, sure. It's a 176 -year -old Baptist Church located in Douglasville, Georgia, just west of Atlanta, and I have the privilege of serving as one of the pastors here and have the opportunity not only to serve as pastor of this particular church, but it happens to be the church where my wife and I grew up as children.

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Praise God. And now tell us something about this exciting conference that I will be attending for the third time,

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God willing, in January. I don't know how many times in total you have done this, but tell us about the

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G3 Conference. Yeah, so the G3 Conference is an annual theology conference that we hold in Atlanta each

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January, and so this particular year the focus or the theme, you might say, is focused on missions.

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So it's the mission of God is the actual title of the theme. And so we're going to be looking at various different elements and issues related to what it means to carry out the

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Great Commission, not only individually but also corporately as a congregation, and how we should approach missions as a local church.

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And so we're looking forward to January and the conference itself. And I will be announcing different names who will be speaking at that conference in a bit, and also you're going to be hearing some ads by some of my friends who will be speaking there, including

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James White and Phil Johnson and Todd Friel, who have all created ads for the

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G3 Conference, specifically for Iron Trump and Zion Radio. Well, you wanted to discuss today social justice, and you have as the exact theme, what is social justice?

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So that's a good way for me to start the interview. Yeah, absolutely. So social justice is really something that's become the en vogue type of thing in our

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Christian circles, and as we think about social justice, we need to really just ask some honest questions.

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Is it really a part of the gospel? I think one of the things that we hear in Christian circles often is that, you know, if you really want to get attention about a specific book or a specific idea or whatever it might be, then you talk about the fact that this is a quote -unquote gospel issue.

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And so I think that, you know, it should be asked from the very beginning, is social justice a part of the gospel?

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And so my answer is going to be simply that it's not, and I'm going to suggest that the social justice movement in and of itself is not really emerging from a biblical category.

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And so when we think about social justice, we hear a lot of people talking about oppression, and so people have been victims in our culture, or we've held back certain ethnicities from flourishing, or we've held back, you know, women from flourishing within certain evangelical circles.

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And so we've seen this type of idea and this language that's become very popular in our American culture for many years, moving its way through the

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Civil Rights Movement and that type of thing. And I'm not suggesting at all, by the way, that everything to do with the

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Civil Rights Movement was bad, or that it was negative, or that it was sinful.

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I'm just simply suggesting that there are lots of ideas and methods that were very much alive and well in the

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Civil Rights Movement that have become in vogue within Christian circles today. And so we're seeing methodologies such as intersectionality, for instance, that type of idea that you have different layers of oppression that people are experiencing.

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And so as a result of this, now we have to figure out a way to apologize to these people, to apologize to the women, to apologize to different ethnicities, to apologize to even what's now being termed, which

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I believe to be a false category, the LGBT Christianity movement, and that we've oppressed them and held them back from flourishing, you know, as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

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And so when we think about social justice, this movement to aid the oppressed or the victims is a very popular and powerful movement.

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But I would simply argue that it's a political and cultural movement rather than a religious movement, but it often takes upon itself religious clothing, if that makes sense.

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Yes. Well, let me start off a follow -up question with the

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LGBTQ category.

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The the the uprise of social justice rhetoric seems to be coming from within theologically reformed circles, especially those who happen to be our black brothers and sisters in Christ, although certainly many who have more melanin content than you or I do are not at all a part of this, and we thank

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God for, you know, men like Daryl Bernard Harrison and Dwayne Atkinson, and I could go on and on listing names of brothers who want no part of this movement.

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But would you say that this LB, or I always get the acronym messed up, but LGBTQ, I think it's what it is, are the are the brethren from our circles, or should

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I say those that are closely related theologically, as far as the Doctrines of Grace, as far as those who seem to be predominantly coming from very conservative, reformed,

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Presbyterian backgrounds, are they the ones who are also including

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LGBTQ as a category of people that need to be flourishing in the church?

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Well, I would simply state that I don't think that they're necessarily advocating it publicly at this point.

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I think the problem becomes when you have really good voices, really good, capable, theological minds that have become silent about these very matters.

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And so when you have something like the Revoice Conference that was held recently in a

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Presbyterian church, which was advocating the very ideas of queer culture and redeeming queer culture and the whole idea of LGBT Christianity, there was an awful lot of silence when it came to that very conference, when there could have been very capable minds who would have spoken up and said, you know what, not only is this not good, but it's very unhelpful and it's an unbiblical category in and of itself.

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So again, once we start going down the road of social justice to aid the victim, we have to ask ourselves this question, if we're going to remain silent about the category of LGBT Christianity, if we're going to remain silent about the danger of that type of idea, then we're not helping the oppressed, we're actually aiding their oppression.

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We're actually increasing their oppression. And so we need to be very clear when it comes to such categories.

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Again, as gospel people, we need to herald the good news so that the people can understand what the gospel actually is.

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Now, when you say that to begin to champion the cause of the

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LGBTQ community, so -called, that we are further oppressing them, are you saying that we are aiding and abetting and they're being oppressed by this very sin that dominates their life, the very sin that they choose to identify their lives with?

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They are attaching it to their Christian identity, just like someone might say,

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I am an Italian Christian, I am a Yugoslavian Christian, I'm a Swedish Christian, and I'm a gay

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Christian. Are you saying that we're aiding in their oppression by the fact that we are softening the warnings to them that they must repent, flee from, and abandon connection to that thought, life, and behavior?

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Yes, absolutely. So in other words, if we're going to allow them to continue to be identified as a quote -unquote gay

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Christian, I think that that's troublesome and it increases their oppression because we're not shining light in darkness, we're allowing them to remain in darkness.

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And so our job as believers is to unveil what is veiled. We're to shine light into darkness, we're to be people of the light rather than the darkness.

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And so again, if it's not good as far as our strategy or as far as our political maneuvering is concerned, then that's problematic because the gospel should take priority over everything else as it pertains to our ministry strategies or whatever else.

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So we need to be helping these people by pointing them to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Amen. Well, if we for now anyway remove the LGBTQ aspect from it, you're really talking about people calling for social justice in regard to the color of their skin or their ethnicity.

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And the battle cry, it seems to be, is that our society, in America especially, is dominated by a white supremacist attitude that is dominating the

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Caucasian culture and that even would include the

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Caucasian element within evangelicalism, which is probably numerically the dominant segment of the body of Christ, even though I agree with my friend, our mutual friend,

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Dr. James R. White, that we have to be colorblind and we have to not be thinking of ourselves as white and black Christians and so on.

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But if you're going to bring this into the discussion on social justice, we have to speak in terms like that.

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So basically this is a call to us, who happen to be pale -faced, to have some kind of a group repentance and even individual repentance over the sin of racism, even if that has not manifested itself in our lives individually in any particular alarming way.

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I mean, we are all sinners, including our black brothers and sisters and every other color and ethnicity within the body of Christ.

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We're all sinners and some of that sin might be involving the pride of our own color or ethnicity in a way that causes us to look down on somebody else who differs from us.

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That may be a remnant sin that's lingering around in some measure, but it doesn't dominate our lives.

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We have to recognize that we have to repent of every sin that we know of, that we are truly guilty of.

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But this is being exaggerated to the point where, by virtue of us having a lack of melanin content in our skin, in other words, the fact that we are light -skinned, we are automatically to be viewed as being guilty of racism in such a manner where it actually affects how we act and think in a major way.

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Am I right on that? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think you're tracking down the right road there.

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I think as a category of social justice in and of itself, again,

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I would like to use the train illustration. So I find this to be helpful when explaining the issue as I see it.

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I think if you have the engine that's moving down the track, you call that social justice. Okay, that's the agenda, that's the movement.

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And then the first shipping container behind the engine is going to be race relations.

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It's going to be the whole racism issue. The second shipping container is going to be the oppression of women, and that's where we're going to have the category of complementarianism and egalitarianism and all of that.

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And then you have the third shipping container, which is going to be the LGBT Christianity, which is again a false category.

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But all three of those particular groups are crying out victim or crying out oppression.

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And so now what we must do is we must aid in that particular victimization by reversing their oppression so we empower them.

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So we give them positions based upon the fact that, you know, we should have a certain number of people that have, you know, different ethnicities that make up denominational ranks.

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Or we should have a certain number of women who make up denominational ranks.

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And we should not hold them back from, you know, flourishing and using all of their gifts for the glory of God.

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And so that conversation is very much alive and well, but now coming on the heels of that would be the gay

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Christianity crowd that says, hey, now we want a seat at the table as well. And so now this entire issue continues to roll through evangelicalism, and so this is not a

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Southern Baptist thing, this is not a Presbyterian thing, this is an evangelical issue that must be addressed.

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And so as a result of that, we're having to deal with all of these complex issues related to not only racism, but also issues that, you know, are very much alive and well and very much near the nerve center within many local churches, and that's the issue of women and their leadership roles.

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And so these conversations are very practical, they're very theological, but they're also very confrontational at times.

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All right, well, I think that, to be honest, that we have to recognize that the problems that we have in our present day in regard to race relations do have some kind of root in the fact that there was a systemized, legalized, and established racism in this country going back to the 70s and, of course, escalating even more severely prior to that, especially, you know, the 60s, the 50s, and earlier, where you had, you know,

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Jim Crow laws, where you had, you know... I was born not long after blacks in many states in this country received the right to vote.

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So, I mean, we can't be blind to the fact that there was a sin, and I'm not saying that the sin has vanished from the earth, it's just that we have to remember it's not just a sin that white people are guilty of.

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But how would you say, for instance, that this issue would be properly, as a

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Christian, responded to, especially back then, where the gospel was not eclipsed, or clouded, or muted, or twisted?

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Because, to be perfectly honest, it's obvious that many of the white churches in the

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United States were sinning either by being militantly opposed to the equality of our black brothers and sisters in Christ, and others of different colors, or they were cowards who just didn't want to come out and publicly say that.

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And, you know, people would actually complain to Martin Luther King Jr., who,

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I agree with you, that he should not be considered, by any stretch of the imagination, a

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Bible -believing Christian, because there's no clear, irrefutable evidence that he ever repented of the heresies that he held to very strongly, such as a denial of the deity of Christ, a denial of the substitutionary atonement of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and so on.

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But, if you're just talking about the civil rights issue, white pastors and clergy would complain to him that he was trying to move things too fast, that he had to be more patient with civil rights rising up in our country in a more gradual fashion, and he was basically saying that,

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I don't even want to be doing this, but it's because you have remained silent about it, and still remain silent, that it compels me to do this.

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And, of course, that was a paraphrase. But, I mean, on a human level, if you remove Christian theology from it, you could see that as a reasonable response from King to the white pastors that he was communicating with, couldn't you?

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Yeah, I mean, I want to be very clear. I don't believe that, you know, everything related to Martin Luther King Jr.

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or the civil rights movement in and of itself is a bad thing. I think that they accomplished some really good things.

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I think that there were some very necessary conversations that needed to take place during that time period.

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I think that, by and large, now, way on the other side of the Jim Crow laws, and, you know, we've seen now a bi -ethnic president.

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We've seen, you know, lots of really good leaders who have risen, and some not so good, in my opinion, but at least, you know, that they weren't marginalized or held back from reaching that particular platform just simply because of their skin color.

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And so, what I would simply state is that it's very confusing that at this particular juncture, we're having this very passionate conversation, almost as if we're back in the 60s.

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Yes. When I look at the evangelical cultures in and of itself, or the culture itself at large, it's difficult sometimes for us to look at the entire culture, because we're somewhat products of the very niche movement in which we serve.

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But when I look at, say, the Baptist circles, I don't see that we're holding back people of color or black men or even women from serving in their

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God -given roles. I simply see that we're trying to be biblical and stand on specific positions.

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So, as it pertains to complementarianism, I don't think that we need to apologize to women. I don't think that we need to apologize that we've not allowed them to speak at conferences to mixed audiences or to preach on, you know, at a gathered church for corporate worship, so long as they're not occupying the office of elder.

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I don't think we need to apologize for that. So I think that, back to your initial question, Chris, I think that the answer is not political savvy or the different methodologies or intersectionality or anything else.

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I think that the answer is the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think that the scriptures in and of themselves are authoritative and sufficient, and I don't really see a need to try to utilize these different methodologies to create this unity or to create this lack of oppression within evangelical circles.

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I see that the scriptures alone are sufficient for that. Amen. I agree, and I do believe that especially the pastors that preceded us for decades who happened to be white, many of them,

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I'm not going to broad brush, I'm not going to be guilty of the same thing that's happening today in the social justice movement with broad brushed accusations, but many of the pastors from behind pulpits were not boldly preaching against the wickedness and sin of racism just as we need to preach out against abortion and homosexuality and every other sin that blots the reputation of this nation and the church in this nation.

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But the issue that I find troubling is that I happen to believe, and I'm assuming that you would agree with me,

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I'm pretty confident you would agree, that racism is a very wicked and evil sin.

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In fact, if it dominated somebody's life, I would question very seriously that they were saved if they were claiming to be a

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Christian, especially when you're reaching severe levels of racist thought and activity like somebody actually being in the

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Klan or the Kinnest group or one of these other racist organizations.

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But the thing that troubles me is because of the fact that I believe racism is so evil and vile,

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I am troubled that many of the voices from our black brothers and sisters who are championing social justice, they are using, in my opinion, very often racism itself to combat racism.

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Is that too far of a leap that I just made? I think that you're actually right on that.

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I think that that particular position is correct, that assumption. So when you have certain individuals who are going well beyond what

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I believe to be the biblical cause here, I think that you can easily turn this whole thing into a reverse racism type of agenda.

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I'm not saying that's the case for everyone involved, and I'm certainly not stating that's the case for even the most well -known voices, but I am suggesting that as this thing continues to go unchecked, that you're going to see lots of other people that are going to swing this thing so far to the opposite direction, and it's going to land in a reverse racism position.

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All right, we have to go to our first station break now. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Josh Bice on social justice, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I look forward to hearing from you with your questions.

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Please only remain anonymous, as I said, if you are asking something of a personal and private nature, so otherwise give us your first name, city and state, country of residence.

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.nyc. Have a great day. James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th through the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

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We are now back with Josh Bice, the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, and the founder of the

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G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory. Before we move on to continue on our topic on social justice,

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I'm very excited about this year's G3 Conference, and I'm sure you are too,

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Pastor Bice. We've been hearing some of our friends advertise this conference on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Can I ask you, is there a difference of opinion that you are aware of amongst any of the speakers at the

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G3 Conference in regard to the very issue we're talking about? Are you speaking of social justice?

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Yes. Well, I'm quite certain that there's going to be a variation of opinions, but just let me be clear, this is not what

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I would consider to be an issue of division.

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In other words, I would simply state that we can partner together, work together, although we might see some things differently, but I think the issue must be further pressed that if you turn social justice into a heretical position, in other words, if it really turns itself, which

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I think can be a slippery slope, if it becomes something other than the gospel, or it takes priority over the gospel, then that's where the issue comes.

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Now, we certainly wouldn't invite anyone to the G3 Conference who holds to that type of understanding, but I want to be clear that there are voices out there in the culture today, even within quote -unquote evangelical culture at large, that are putting a greater emphasis on social justice at this present juncture than they are the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that's problematic.

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And how is the social justice movement different from a very common tenet within Reformed Christianity that has existed for centuries?

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In varying degrees, there is even disagreement amongst Reformed Christians on what level of activity changing the culture involves, but you have long had an idea that the gospel is not only intended to save lost souls, to get individuals to repent of their sin, to cling to their one and only hope,

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Jesus Christ, and his redeeming death on Calvary, and his resurrection as their one and only hope for eternal life, and to see multitudes rescued out of darkness and brought into eternal life by Christ through his grace.

37:48

But there has also been a very common thread amongst Calvinists and Reformed Christians that when these people are indeed regenerate, that we have evangelized and that have been raised up to new life by Christ himself, by his grace, that cultures do change.

38:09

I can still remember my friend Peter Jeffrey from Wales, who is now in eternity with Christ, but he was speaking at the congregation where I was a member of the

38:21

Welch revival, where in Wales you had a revival in the 19th century and perhaps early 20th century, where after miners, coal miners, were getting saved, they were returning the tools that they stole from working in the mines, and there were so many tools that were being returned that there was a problem by the the mine owners on where to store the extra tools that came up, that appeared out of nowhere because of the fact that people were returning them.

38:54

But there is culture change when when people get saved, especially when they begin becoming saved in mass.

39:01

How is that relationship to the gospel different from racism when we are preaching the gospel?

39:09

How is this social justice movement different from what I just said? Well, I think that one of the main reasons that it's different is simply because of the fact that we have this social justice, this modern social justice movement, which is very much interested in utilizing political ideas and methodologies.

39:32

So like intersectionality, which is a particular method that was coined years ago in the late 80s by a woman named

39:42

Kimberly Crenshaw, and her idea was that as she was trying to aid the oppressed homosexual woman, a lesbian, she was suggesting that just simply because of the fact that there is a woman in our culture today that just by the mere fact that she's a woman that she is oppressed to a certain degree.

40:04

And then if you add the fact that she's a black woman, now you have two different circles of oppression that that particular individual endures.

40:15

And now if you add a third circle, the fact that this woman is black but now she's also a lesbian, in those three circles where they intersect, that intersection is the greatest opportunity of oppression for that particular individual, which also happens to be at the heart of who that individual is, according to Kimberly Crenshaw.

40:36

Now, when you have that type of idea that's circulated in the culture that's now being brought into evangelicalism that suggests, well, because I happen to be, you know, oppressed in these various different areas, now

40:51

I need that much more liberation. So I need you to liberate me and to empower me, and so their voice now takes priority over everyone else's voice, and now we have a movement that's very much bent or centered on helping that individual.

41:10

And so the issue becomes this. Do we need intersectionality, or do we need the gospel of Jesus Christ?

41:17

So I appeal to the Scriptures. When we see Paul and we see him addressing issues related to the

41:24

Jews and their privilege, we hear a lot about white privilege today. Here's the question.

41:29

Do we need to apologize because of the fact that we were born white in America? And the question should be asked further.

41:37

What do we see Paul saying to the Jews? He actually talked about the fact that they were definitely privileged people, that they had the oracles of God, that they had been given the commandments, they had been given the promises, the covenants, and yet they misused their privilege.

41:59

Instead of using it for light to the Gentiles, they simply didn't tell the gospel to the

42:05

Gentiles, and they, you know, that they walked past them, they ignored them, they refused to minister to them, and so Paul doesn't...

42:15

he doesn't rebuke them for the fact that they were born with the privileges. He doesn't ask them to apologize for their privilege.

42:23

He asked them and called them to repentance for the fact that they had been guilty of not carrying out the

42:29

Great Commission, which again, the covenant of Abraham was never just for the Jews, it was always for all of God's people.

42:36

Jesus came to die for his people. And so when we think about social justice, the reason that it's different from the example that you gave is simply because of the fact that we're not being champions of the gospel of Jesus Christ alone.

42:51

Now we're trying to think about these different strategies and political maneuvering. And so I just go back to what

42:58

I stated earlier, I believe that the gospel is enough, and I believe that the Scriptures are sufficient. We have a question from Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

43:10

She said, I have heard that John MacArthur is identifying this social justice heresy as one of the greatest attacks upon the gospel of Jesus Christ in modern history.

43:23

Would you concur with that? I would absolutely agree that I think that this is potentially the greatest threat upon the

43:32

Church of Jesus Christ in the last one to two hundred years, yes, absolutely. Now, could you explain a little bit in more detail why that is?

43:41

Yes, so the reason is simply because of the fact that it's such a fluid movement, it's such a fluid agenda.

43:47

And so when you have people who are, you know, now apologizing for preaching a truncated gospel, and they're suggesting that they have to preach the whole counsel of God's Word as it pertains to the gospel, simply because of the fact that they're not woke yet.

44:05

And the idea of woke is this idea that if you don't see systemic racism in evangelical circles, then you simply haven't been awakened to the reality that it's there.

44:16

Now let's just be clear, there is no system that's perfect, because every system is made up of sinners.

44:23

But we must also be clear that the system of evangelicalism or denominational life, whatever denomination or group of churches that you might associate with, is not rigged against women or rigged against black people.

44:38

There are individuals who might be guilty of personal racism, but not as a system, you know, as a whole, you might say.

44:48

And so all of these different layers of complexity moving together in a very fluid, complex system of thought pose a very large threat upon the gospel of Jesus Christ, because now you have to ask yourself this question, is the gospel enough or must we now add something other than the gospel to the gospel in order to be made right with God?

45:13

Or you might have issues related to, you know, how do women serve for the glory of God within the local church?

45:22

And so now we have a whole list of questions that must be addressed.

45:28

And so do we need a new definition of complementarianism? And so this is not just the gospel itself that's under attack, but it's the whole foundation of the

45:37

Church. So you have the gospel that's definitely in the crosshairs, but now you have the other issues surrounding the gospel, such as the role of women, and is

45:47

LGBT Christianity a biblical category or not? And so this is why it's such a tragic, tragic agenda that's posing such a great threat.

45:58

We have, let's see here, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Ronald says, shouldn't one of the brightest red lights that is flashing before our eyes, as far as a warning about this social justice movement, is that it seems to be mirroring what the pagan society around us is complaining about, and what they are charging society with, especially those who happen to perhaps have white skin.

46:32

Shouldn't that be a troubling factor when the most rebellious against Christ who are among us are seemingly saying the same things as the social justice warriors champions are saying?

46:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Again, I think that when it comes to the social justice agenda, we need to ask ourselves the question, you know, what is the definition, and then who's making this statement?

47:00

Are they far out on the peripheral of what we might call heresy, or are they still within the

47:08

Orthodox camp, but they're just making some very troubling statements? But yeah,

47:13

I think that we need to evaluate and examine everything that's being stated through the lens of the gospel to be very clear as to where our positions land on this very issue.

47:26

Amen. And we have, let's see, John in Bangor, Maine says, would you agree that one of the problems with the social justice rhetoric is that it forces those who happen to be white into a corner where we sound as if we are proud and arrogant and self -righteous merely by defending ourselves that we are not racist?

47:50

Yeah, I think that that's, again, one of the massive problems with the social justice movement is the idea that there is this systemic racism, that there's white privilege, and let's just be honest, when we start to champion that idea, we have, at that very moment, we have created another category called black privilege, because when you have someone that says there's this category of white privilege that's driving the political system in America and the evangelical system in our particular context, whatever direction you want to go with that, we need to be very clear that at that moment you have now elevated another skin color, their voice now takes priority over everyone else because now they're the victim.

48:37

And so I like to say it like this, our victimology in evangelical circles has now replaced theology, and that's a serious, serious problem.

48:48

Amen. We've already even seen very recently, in fact maybe yesterday or the day before, how this is actually coming to fruition with Asian folks, where Asian folks have lost opportunities in Ivy League schools and so on, merely because of the color of their skin, where black applicants were given a privilege over them simply because of race or skin color.

49:15

Yeah, yeah, again, that's what we call affirmative action that's taken on religious clothing, so to speak, and so we see that in evangelicalism today, where certain schools and institutions are giving priority to applicants simply because of the fact that they happen to have a certain color of skin.

49:34

Now let me be clear about this, I don't think that we should ever hold back individuals who have a certain color of skin from certain positions, as well as I don't think it's proper to elevate people just simply because of the color of their skin.

49:52

In other words, it can be very patronizing for an individual who is now promoted to a position or elected to a position within denominational circles just simply because of the fact that they have a certain color of skin, and then they have to honestly ask themselves this question, was it because of the color of my skin, or was it because of the gift that God has given me that has placed me in this particular position at this time in history?

50:19

And so we certainly don't need that conversation, it's not helpful, it's very confusing. Well, I'd like you to, in two minutes time, really wrap up what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regarding to this theme, and then

50:37

I want you to give another plug to the G3 conference. I'm very excited about it, as I always am, but perhaps even specifically in regard to those applying to register for exhibitors booths, because I really think that this, above all past G3 conferences, there will be opportunities that are really overwhelming and exciting because of the fact that you're expecting between four and five thousand people in January.

51:11

But before we go to that, if you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about the social justice issue.

51:19

Well, I just want to simply drive home the point, Chris, that as it pertains to social justice, that our

51:24

God is a just God, okay? So if we want an accurate definition of justice, we need to look at the

51:31

Scriptures, we need to see the revelation of God Himself, we need to see that God is opposed to oppression,

51:38

He's opposed to injustice, and He Himself has given us an accurate understanding of what justice looks like.

51:46

And so when He saves us through Christ Jesus, when He saves us through the blood of His own

51:52

Son, we need to understand that we have received grace, but yet the justice was fulfilled in the death blow of His Son on the cross.

52:04

And so we need to understand what a proper understanding of justice looks like. And then now as believers, we're called to be people who love our neighbor as ourselves.

52:14

We're called to be people who stand against oppression. But let's be clear, the gospel of Jesus Christ is what brings us together and bands us together within the

52:25

Church of Jesus Christ and helps us aid in those particular areas. So we simply don't need the political maneuvering, we don't need intersectionality, we don't need to embrace ideas such as woke or LGBT Christianity or any of these other things for unity in the gospel.

52:44

We just simply need to be champions and heralds of the good news of Jesus Christ. And so as we think about the gospel itself,

52:53

God sending His Son, dying upon the cross, Jesus coming to save His people from their sins, justice being fulfilled, the wrath of God being satisfied, propitiation being offered through Christ, and that salvation is ours in Jesus alone.

53:09

So we need to be champions of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and then this whole social justice movement in and of itself,

53:16

I believe it's built upon sinking sand, it's built upon a foundation that is certainly not the rock of Christ alone.

53:24

And so, look, I don't know any Christian that would say that they're for oppressing others or holding back anyone else simply because of the color of their skin or because of the fact that they were born as a woman.

53:38

We just simply need to be people of the book and not apologize for what the Scriptures actually state.

53:46

Well, praise God. We have a question from, I usually don't give out full names, but since it's a pastor

53:55

I figured I'd give the full name, Pastor Mike Reed of Grace Fellowship Church in Davenport, Iowa.

54:03

He says, I praise God for the clarity with which my brother Josh speaks to this threat to the gospel, as well as your boldness in combating it,

54:13

Brother Chris. Would you not agree that racism is a worldview that cannot be acknowledged in the church?

54:23

I'm not sure if he means that should not be tolerated, because obviously racism exists in the church as much as we are saying that it's not the dominant sin of our country or church that it's claimed to be, but I mean,

54:38

I'm assuming he means tolerated. Yeah, that's the way I take it as well. I would simply state that I agree with that.

54:46

I think it's a worldview, I think it's a sinful manifestation of the depravity of the human heart, and I think that whether it be the idea of oppressing certain people simply because of the color of their skin, or the reverse idea of seeking to become victims so that you can have a privileged voice,

55:08

I think both ideas are wrong and they should not be tolerated within the church. Well, if you could give a quick plug to the

55:16

G3 conference and tell people how they can register also not only to attend, but for an exhibitor's booth and what some of the criteria for that would be, because I'm so excited about it

55:25

I can't contain myself. I'm not exaggerating. Yeah, great. So yeah, we invite various ministries or institutions, denominational entities, or you might say colleges or seminaries.

55:40

If you have a specific ministry that you're interested in exhibiting at the G3 conference, you can simply go to the

55:47

G3conference .com website, you can look for the exhibitor application, you can fill that out, and then our staff will meet periodically over the fall month, so we'll be giving those particular individuals the green light to go ahead and register as an exhibitor.

56:03

We'll give those those directions through email. But again, I think the conference itself is going to be very helpful to provide not only encouragement, but clarity on how we should approach missions within the context of the local church.

56:17

Again, we should not just lean upon mission agencies, but we should put the

56:22

Church of Jesus Christ at front and center within the Great Commission itself. Praise God, and that's

56:28

G3conference .com, G3conference .com. Also, if you happen to be visiting or you live near Douglasville, Georgia, and you want to visit

56:41

Praise Middle Baptist Church, or if you have family, friends, or loved ones that live near there or are visiting there, go to PraiseMill .com,

56:49

P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com, and that's the website for Praise Middle Baptist Church.

56:55

I am so thankful, Pastor Josh, that you were on the program today, and I look forward to many, many future returns from you as a guest on Iron Trip and Zion.

57:07

Thank you, Chris, it's been a privilege, brother. God bless you. And don't go away, folks, we have

57:12

Elias Aiella coming up in the second hour of the program. Eli Aiella is going to be talking about angels, demons,

57:22

Satan, what are their roles, their powers, and their limitations.

57:29

I think a fascinating topic awaits us, so make sure you stay with us, and if you have questions on angels, demons, and Satan, send in an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

57:41

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

57:48

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. This is our elongated break right now that we are going to.

57:55

Please be patient with us as we take this long break that Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us, because they need to localize

58:05

Iron Sherp and Zion Radio in Lake City, Florida by airing their own commercials and public service announcements.

58:11

So take this time to write in your questions to Eli Aiella about angels, demons, and Satan, and you can also please,

58:20

I'm asking you very seriously and strongly urging you to write down the information that our advertisers that that are sponsoring this program, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because the more you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we are going to remain on the air.

58:44

So please write down that information. But as far as questions for Eli Aiella coming up for the second hour on angels, demons, and Satan, send in an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

58:55

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Eli Aiella.

59:13

Hi, Phil Johnson here. I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sherp and Zion Radio.

59:22

So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the

59:27

G3 conference, where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic, a biblical understanding of missions.

59:43

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

59:50

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sherp and Zion exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details go to g3conference .com.

59:59

That's g3conference .com. See you there. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sherp and Zion Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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From Pride to Humility by Stuart Scott absolutely free of charge. Now we are moving on to a few upcoming special events that we want you to attend, if at all possible.

01:07:03

First of all, there's two events that I have personally arranged along with my friends at Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, next week on Friday and Saturday September 7th and September 8th both at 6 30 p .m.

01:07:18

that I hope that as many of you as possible will attend. First of all, on Friday September 7th 6 30 p .m.

01:07:25

at the Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary's Jacksonville, Florida campus, my friend

01:07:30

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and his dear friend Dr. Michael L. Brown of the

01:07:36

Line of Fire radio program and the Fire School for Ministry, they are going to be speaking together at Gordon -Conwell on the theme of House -Mended

01:07:45

Christian Unity in a Culture of Outrage. That's Friday September 7th 6 30 p .m.

01:07:52

at the Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary's Jacksonville, Florida campus. For more details go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org

01:08:01

SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. Then the following night, this time at Switzerland Community Church, a debate will be held,

01:08:08

God willing, that I have orchestrated where Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr.

01:08:14

Michael L. Brown of the Line of Fire radio program are together on the same debating team, debating against two practicing homosexuals who are also ordained ministers and who are claiming that homosexuality is not under the wrath of God, it is not a sin necessarily, perhaps they believe in some forms of it are, but they are going to be debating on the affirmative side of the debate the theme,

01:08:42

Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience? That's Saturday night

01:08:48

September 8th 6 30 p .m. at the Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, a nearby suburb of Jacksonville.

01:08:57

For more details once again go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org.

01:09:03

Then coming up in November on the 9th and the 10th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

01:09:09

Quaker Town conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town. The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include

01:09:17

David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Wynn. That's November 9th and the 10th at the

01:09:24

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. If you'd like to register go to AllianceNet .org

01:09:30

AllianceNet .org, click on events and then scroll down to Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:09:36

Then coming up is the event you've been hearing advertised on Iron Trap and Zion Radio for a long time now, the

01:09:44

G3 Conference which will be held, God willing, from Thursday January 17th through Saturday January 19th at the

01:09:52

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

01:09:57

They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to be there. The theme is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions.

01:10:05

There will be a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday January 16th, so tell your

01:10:11

Spanish -speaking and bilingual friends about that. But the English -speaking conference for the rest of the conference from the 17th to the 19th of January will feature such speakers as John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

01:10:29

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of John MacArthur's Grace to You ministry, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, the guest that I had for the first hour on this program,

01:10:39

Pastor Josh Bice, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

01:10:46

Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late Dr.

01:10:51

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster. To register to either attend or to have your own exhibitors booth, go to G3Conference .com,

01:11:04

G3Conference .com, please tell all of these ministries and organizations that you heard about their events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:14

And now the least favorite part of my program that really gives me great discomfort to do, but it's something that needs to be done.

01:11:22

If you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, please donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as much as you can and as often as you can.

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Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

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You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card, and you can also donate via snail mail to the address that you will see appear on the screen.

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Please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Never put your family in financial jeopardy to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home.

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Providing for this radio program is not a command of God obviously, but if you are blessed by the program and you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands

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I mentioned, providing for church and home, then please be as generous as you can and donate as frequently as you can to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

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You don't have to believe identically with me, you just need to be promoting something that's compatible with what I believe, and just sending me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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and put advertising in the subject line ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and we would love to help you launch an ad campaign.

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That is also the email address where you could send in a question to Elias Aiella who is our guest now for the second hour.

01:12:54

Elias Aiella, you could send the questions to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

01:13:00

we are discussing angel, demons, and Satan. What are they? What are their roles, powers, and limitations?

01:13:06

And my guest Elias Aiella is a Christian apologist, he's a graduate of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary where he earned a

01:13:15

Master of Arts in Theological Studies and Master of Divinity. He is a middle and high school teacher at Valley Stream Christian Academy on Long Island, New York.

01:13:26

He's a youth director at Massapequa Reform Church on Long Island. He's a traveling speaker and team member at the

01:13:33

Historical Bible Society and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Elias Aiella.

01:13:41

Thank you for having me on, I'm happy to be on again. Let's find out a little bit more about the

01:13:47

Historical Bible Society founded by my friend Dan Botafuco. Tell us about this organization, where you serve on the team.

01:13:56

Well Dan Botafuco has a wonderful collection of, you know, manuscripts and I remember when

01:14:03

I first saw his display of the kinds of things that he kind of has on display when he gives his talks,

01:14:08

I actually remember holding in my hand a Texas Receptus, which is the text base that was used for the

01:14:15

King James Version. So we have this amazing collection of manuscripts and pages from very, very old

01:14:22

Bibles. I think he even has a page from the Gutenberg Bible. And so what he does is he goes around and he gives talks on the reliability of the

01:14:31

Bible and of course having the various manuscripts and books that he has, it kind of adds a very tangible experience of all things.

01:14:42

So he focuses on the historical aspect and he has hired me to focus more on the apologetics aspect, which kind of branches a little bit more beyond just the historical aspect.

01:14:53

I cover philosophical and theological topics and so that's kind of what

01:14:59

I do. Yeah and I have been probably to at least five presentations of the

01:15:05

Historical Bible Society that Dan has led and I never got tired of it. I never got bored.

01:15:11

He had me riveted to everything he was saying. He does change it up a bit, not that the facts of history change, but he changes up the presentation a bit every time

01:15:22

I've seen him do it. So it is always fresh and fascinating and he has a 1611

01:15:29

King James Bible. He has just an enormous selection of very valuable

01:15:36

Bibles and religious books. He even has a,

01:15:42

I don't know if it's a first edition, but if it's not it's a close to a first edition of Fox's Book of Martyrs and so on.

01:15:49

So I highly recommend that anybody listening, if they want to find out more about the

01:15:55

Historical Bible Society and how you can get Dan to give his presentation at your church, at the

01:16:03

Christian school that you operate, or some other organization, civic group and so on, go to historicalbiblesociety .org,

01:16:12

historicalbiblesociety .org. Elias, before we even go into our theme, you are going to be speaking on the subject of our theme,

01:16:20

Angels and Demons, at an event I believe, if I'm not mistaken, at the Massapequa Reformed Church on Long Island.

01:16:28

Yeah, a couple of times a month we have, well I host a Bible study called

01:16:34

Coffee and Questions, and we'll pick a topic of interest and people can come in from anywhere and they could ask any question they want, typically related to the topic that we're covering, but people are free to ask anything they wish.

01:16:47

So this upcoming Coffee and Questions study will be on September 15th, beginning at 10, people come around 945 to get settled in, but we begin at 10 and we end around 11, 11 -15, depending on the nature of the discussion, and it's open to anyone.

01:17:04

And if you want more details, go to massreformedchurch .org. Mass is an abbreviation for Massapequa, massreformedchurch .org.

01:17:14

Well, the subject that we are addressing, Angels, Demons, and Satan, what are they?

01:17:22

What are their roles, powers, and limitations? This is an area that, being theologically reformed, and I've said this before on my program,

01:17:31

I am somewhat dismayed that people from our circles of theological fellowship,

01:17:38

Calvinist, Reformed Christians, perhaps even the same could be said of Fundamentalists that,

01:17:46

Fundamentals Baptists specifically, that these areas are not really spoken of or delved into at any, in any great depth.

01:17:55

It seems to be areas, they seem to be areas that are shied away from because perhaps we're paranoid about looking like we're charismatic or Pentecostal because of the fact that Pentecostals and Charismatics have very often so overblown, have such an overblown concentration on these things that they get involved in sensationalism very often, they get involved in sometimes out -and -out fabrications of supernatural occurrences and so on.

01:18:31

But because of that fact, we tend to shy away from these matters. But sadly, that should not be the case.

01:18:39

We should not be overreacting to what occurs in a negative way. These are very important topics because they're biblical and the demons and Satan himself are active right now.

01:18:52

They're not like asleep or they're not, they haven't disappeared. I'd like you to start off with the big daddy of them all, if you will,

01:19:03

Satan. There is, I was actually surprised lately in my

01:19:09

Christian walk to hear disagreement even amongst conservative Reformed Christians who have delved into the issue of demonology and Satan and Lucifer at quite, in quite a great deal, a great deal of depth.

01:19:26

There is differences of opinion as to whether Lucifer and Satan are the same entity and so on.

01:19:31

What is your opinion from your research and your exegesis of Scripture? Who is

01:19:37

Satan and what is he? Yeah, well first let's define our terms before we get to Satan, because we understand

01:19:47

Satan as a fallen angel of sorts. Let's define what we mean by angel, and I'm taking this from Standard Systematic Text and I think it's a good definition, a good starting point.

01:19:58

Angels are created spiritual beings with moral judgment and high intelligence, but without physical bodies, okay?

01:20:06

And so angels are created, they are spiritual, that means they do not take up space, they are immaterial entities, and they're personal.

01:20:15

They have rationality, they think. Again, I like what you mentioned at the beginning there, that within Reformed circles we tend to stray away from talking about these things.

01:20:25

For the reasons that you laid out, I think, is one of them. For example, you don't hear a lot of sermons when we talk about, you know, we do character studies, for example, we'll talk about David being a man after God's own heart, but you rarely hear a

01:20:37

Protestant preaching about Mary and the quality that she had as a faithful servant of the

01:20:42

Lord, because it tends to associate, you know, in our minds with Roman Catholicism and things like that.

01:20:47

But you are very correct in that if something is mentioned in the Word of God, if a statement, a proposition in Scripture mentioned angels and gives us information on it, then that is part of the divine commentary on reality.

01:21:01

Angels exist as Christians, and even more specifically, as a Christian apologist that interacts with, you know, people on an intellectual level,

01:21:10

I am not ashamed of affirming the existence of spiritual entities. I affirm them, I don't downplay them, they're real.

01:21:17

And so I think we need to really come to grips with all of Scripture, including those aspects that tend to be sensationalized and misrepresented and misunderstood, we should have a very robust and full explanation as to what the

01:21:30

Bible has to say about those things, and incorporate them within our fuller outlook on life.

01:21:36

And so, we need to acknowledge those spiritual realities. So, if an angel is a created being, and a spiritual being, and a moral being with high intelligence, if we take a look at Satan, for example, if Satan is an angel, then he would be a spiritual created being with intelligence and rationality, but of course on the other side of the goalpost, so to speak, he is a fallen angel, an enemy of God.

01:22:00

And this should scare us to a certain degree, and not in the ultimate sense, because the

01:22:07

Bible does teach us that greater is he that's in me than he that's in the world, but that our enemy is a rational agent that has the capacity to devise schemes against us.

01:22:18

That really should wake us up to the importance of having a spiritual strategy in our own lives to combat the enemy on that spiritual level.

01:22:28

And I don't mean going around looking for the devil under every rock, but taking care of ourselves spiritually, recognizing that we're not only struggling against our own struggle with sin, but there is a personal malevolent agent that participates in alongside our weaknesses, if you will, and tries to exploit those things so that we're not as effective as we can be.

01:22:53

And so I think those are important kind of things to get out of the way first. So what is the devil?

01:23:00

Just in summary, he is a fallen angel, and he is typically understood to be the head of the demons, the one who caused an uprising against God by trying to put himself at the same level of God, but was cast out of heaven, and of course we know that there were others who followed in his stead.

01:23:19

What you mentioned in regards to those other passages, say for example in Isaiah or Ezekiel, do

01:23:26

I understand those specific passages as referring to the devil himself? To be perfectly honest,

01:23:32

I don't know. That's a good question. I think that Scripture often speaks about, you know, situations or people in one level, but there is a higher application that goes beyond what we see in the text, and perhaps is pointing to something greater, just like the

01:23:50

Messianic prophecies, where they often refer to David, but have kind of another application that is relevant to the person and work of Christ.

01:23:58

So in that fashion, I think one could argue in Ezekiel and in Isaiah where it talks about, you know, the

01:24:04

Morning Star, there can be some application there, but on a personal level I'm not really sure what to do with those texts.

01:24:11

Now something that's interesting, the 1689 London Baptist Confession refers to elect angels.

01:24:19

Obviously the concept of election went beyond human beings, it did also involve angels, because obviously we have some that rebelled and were thrown out of heaven, and therefore traditionally

01:24:35

Reformed Christians would say that those that remain forever in heaven, even right now, are the elect angels, because you don't have this kind of thing happening all the time, where you have wars going on in heaven, where you have rebellious angels still, at any given moment, rebelling against Christ and then being thrown out and so on.

01:25:00

So it really bolsters even the idea of election, the doctrine of election, whereas an

01:25:09

Arminian or non -Calvinist would have really less of an answer as to why those things aren't happening now.

01:25:15

Am I right on that? I'm not sure. I don't think that the rebellious angels that rebelled when they did,

01:25:25

I don't see why, as I'm just thinking about it, why they couldn't rebel now, and how that would affect one's perspective on election.

01:25:34

Remember, election happens before the foundation of the world, when God decrees. Right. Reality takes the shape that it does because of God's decree.

01:25:41

And so God decrees, say, you know, who's going to be saved, but that doesn't work against, you know, man sinning at the beginning, and then, of course, man continually rebelling throughout history.

01:25:53

Well, I mean, when we're in heaven, though, I mean, every tear is going to be dried. Is heaven going to be a place where sin is present in our future that awaits us, where there could be...

01:26:02

No, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about. In that regard, I'm talking about, say, from the first sin to where we are now, the rebellion at the beginning didn't have an effect on, you know, one's inability to rebel later on.

01:26:16

I mean, it was an inevitable offshoot of that. I don't see, from the text, that because there was a rebellion back then, that there cannot be a rebellion now.

01:26:25

Now, I'm not saying that there will be. I'm just saying, based on the information that we have, as I understand it,

01:26:30

I don't I don't see a necessary connection there. Okay, well, I'm assuming you would believe that even if you opened up a possibility for a rebellion to happen now, you would think that that would come to an abrupt end at some point, because you don't think, when we are resurrected at the last day and we enter into heaven, that's going to be a place where we're going to be possibly witness to wars going on, and at the same time, you know, glorified

01:27:01

Christians in heaven rebelling and so on. I mean, that would be obviously not heaven at all if there was a possibility of the uprising of enemies of Christ in our midst, in glory.

01:27:14

Right. When I see when, for example, when Christ comes again, and all his enemies are under his feet,

01:27:20

I would imagine that even if, hypothetically, before that time, an angel could rebel, at that time there would be no rebellion, since all of his enemies are put under his feet, and all of the angels that haven't rebelled constitute his elect angels.

01:27:34

Elect angels are angels that God has chosen to preserve from rebellion.

01:27:40

So that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the ones that were not preserved had to necessarily rebel when the first rebellion occurred.

01:27:49

Does that make sense? Yes, I understand, but I think that my point still stands that the one who doesn't believe in election at all has really no basis by which to believe that the heaven of our future, after the final resurrection at the last day, why that a million years from now there might be a rebellion in heaven when the saints are already in the company of Christ in glory?

01:28:17

That's what I'm saying. Well, that would relate to, it seems to me, I guess it is related to election, but that would also touch on the topic of free will.

01:28:27

That if someone has free will and glory, if free will constitutes the ability to do something contrary to what they otherwise do, you know, perhaps someone,

01:28:36

I've actually heard people say that it is possible to sin in heaven, but it just so happens, that's exactly what

01:28:43

I did, but it just so happens that God actualizes a world in which the people who are in heaven wouldn't.

01:28:49

Right. Right, right, okay. Well, it's just, I mean, we believe, we who are

01:28:55

Reformed, believe that we are given a new nature, and we are given new hearts, and while that is imperfect here, while we're in heaven, when we're in heaven, that will be brought to a perfected level of glorification.

01:29:09

So, and so, I don't think that the Arminian consistently and logically can think through the ramifications of their view in regard to not only humans in heaven, but, in fact,

01:29:21

I had a comical dispute with a Roman Catholic friend of mine who said that the problem with Calvinism is that we believe that God made humans robots, and I said, why do you say that?

01:29:33

And he said, well, if you don't have the free will to either accept or reject Christ, you're a robot. So I said, so I guess your ultimate goal in life is to be a robot yourself, and he said, what are you talking about?

01:29:43

I said, you want to go to heaven when you die, right? And he said, yeah, isn't that your ultimate goal? Yeah. Well, if you can't rebel against Christ in heaven,

01:29:50

I guess you're a robot then, right? And then he said, maybe you can rebel against Christ in heaven, just like you said.

01:29:59

And rather than admit he was wrong or that he had a problem with his argument, he went there. But we're gonna get more involved into the roles and the powers and the limitations of angels, demons, and Satan after we return from our final break.

01:30:16

If you'd like to join us on the air, do so now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:25

Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

01:30:34

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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01:30:52

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01:31:00

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:32:03

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. James White here, co -founder of Alvin Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:32:31

I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th through the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

01:32:43

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

01:32:55

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

01:33:02

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and the guest for the second half of the program today is

01:40:05

Elias Ayala of the Historical Bible Society. We are discussing angels, demons, and Satan, what they are, what are their roles, powers, and limitations.

01:40:14

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Before we go to any listener questions,

01:40:21

I just want you to say a brief word also about New York Apologetics. I understand that you're going to be involved in an event that they are running.

01:40:30

Yes. I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember the exact date, but it's at the end of September.

01:40:36

It'll be posted on Facebook if anyone's interested. There's going to be a couple of speakers. I am going to be covering the topic of the

01:40:42

Biblical foundations for apologetics, mostly focusing on 1 Peter chapter 3, verse 15, and Jude chapter 1, verse 3, and kind of taking it from there, hoping to encourage people to understand that if you believe the

01:40:56

Word of God, the Word of God includes the exhortation to defend the faith. So that's going to be kind of my focus on that event.

01:41:05

And the website for more details is NewYorkApologetics .com, and New York is spelled out in two words.

01:41:11

Don't abbreviate that. And you can get all of the details. I believe it's called the Upstream Faith free conference, so I hope that you can attend that if you are able to.

01:41:24

All right, now let's go to a further explanation on our topic before we go to listener questions about angels, demons, and Satan.

01:41:35

You said that they are spirit beings. They don't take up physical space. Well, what are their roles, first of all?

01:41:43

I mean, if God is the creator of all things, that would include the fact that he created entities that at least became demons and became

01:41:55

Satan. What are the roles that they play in your understanding from biblical exegesis?

01:42:03

My understanding, if you were to take everything that the Bible says about the demonic, especially from the

01:42:09

New Testament, the demonic is, and we can understand this through experience as well,

01:42:14

I think the number one task of the demonic realm is the distortion of truth.

01:42:20

I think that's very important, because we're not, we don't normally see manifestations of demons walking around and physically assaulting people, or everyone walking around possessed, you know, unbelievers possessed and doing crazy things, although you know, the

01:42:33

Scripture gives us a foundation for understanding demon possession. But I think the subtle strategy of the enemy is the distortion of the truth, and so I think that's one of the primary tasks.

01:42:45

Of course, Jesus called the devil the father of lies, and so I think that's very much connected with that concept.

01:42:52

And as far as angels are concerned, I've had many people ask me this.

01:42:59

Are angels sent from God or by God to protect his children,

01:43:06

Christians? Are angels protecting us in ways that we don't even know when we step out into the street and perhaps a car might have otherwise plowed right into us and killed us?

01:43:17

Are angels involved in our protection in that way, and in other ways? I want to make a careful distinction, because I know a lot of people talk about this, but in the context of a guardian angel, does

01:43:27

God assign angels to us from birth, you know, and then of course takes us to, you know, to the presence of God upon death?

01:43:34

I'm not sure that the Bible teaches that we have lifelong guardian angels, but there's definitely the notion in Scripture that God can send angels to protect his people.

01:43:43

As to how long the angel is assigned to a person, of course, we're not really told, but the

01:43:49

Bible speaks about one of the tasks of angels, especially in the book of Hebrews, is to watch over those who will inherit eternal life.

01:43:57

And so there is this notion of watching over and protection in regards to the tasks of the angelic beings.

01:44:04

Of course, to relay messengers as well, the Greek word angelos literally means messenger. So they can have the task of protecting.

01:44:13

There is also the task of fighting in the spiritual realm. The Bible speaks about spiritual conflict. But there is also this notion of relaying a message, as we see, for example, in the book of Daniel, where he receives an angelic message.

01:44:29

By the way, I have seen guardian angels with my own eyes in the subway system of New York City, so I know that they exist.

01:44:37

I, of course, am talking about that. I wouldn't call them vigilantes, but, you know, I'm speaking.

01:44:44

I actually feel a little safer whenever I see them around. Okay, we have, let's see here, we have

01:44:54

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks a frequently asked question.

01:45:00

What is your belief in regard to demon possession amongst Christians?

01:45:06

Yeah, I think this is a really good question. I want to draw a distinction between possession and oppression.

01:45:16

Oppression tends to be related to an external demonic hostility.

01:45:23

Christians can be oppressed in various ways, but I don't think someone who is filled with the

01:45:30

Holy Spirit can be possessed. Jesus makes a reference to, you know, if you want to take over a man's house, you need to bind the strongman first.

01:45:40

If the Holy Spirit is the strongman that is in our house, the house of our body, then

01:45:46

I don't see any plausible way that a demonic entity can bind up the

01:45:51

Spirit of God dwelling in a believer. So I don't think that there is any ground, both biblically and just logically speaking, for a

01:45:59

Christian to be possessed by a demon. But definitely oppressed and bothered, and I would even use the word haunted in certain cases.

01:46:10

I've heard and I've even experienced things myself where I have been afflicted with fear and have actually seen things myself when

01:46:17

I was much younger. When you say seen things, what do you mean? Do you mean supernatural things?

01:46:24

Oh sure, yeah, absolutely. Why don't you describe some of that? Well, okay.

01:46:30

I remember this. I was probably seven or eight, and the reason why

01:46:35

I remember it so well is that it scared the living daylights out of me at the time, and the image is burning in my head.

01:46:42

I remember I was having bad dreams, and I couldn't sleep, and so I complained to my parents, and my parents let me sleep in between them, and I felt just this constant feeling of fear.

01:46:55

I had the covers over my head, and when I built up enough courage to remove the covers from my head,

01:47:01

I saw on the wall when my parents were in, it kind of looked like a projector, like when you have a projection on, and you have maybe like a

01:47:09

PowerPoint or an image against the wall, so it was like a flat surface of this entity that spanned from the floor to the ceiling, this being that looked like it was wearing white torn robes, and its eyes were of flame, and I saw this thing for a good maybe three to four seconds, screamed at the top of my lungs, and of course, as I'm sure as many stories would relate, the lights go on, and of course, you know, there's nothing there, but I remember seeing that image very vividly.

01:47:38

And you don't think this was just your mind playing tricks on you, as far as shadows and light, and...

01:47:44

Sure, sure, sure. Well, I mean, if I remember, it was a very clear image. I knew that I was awake since I couldn't go to sleep, because I was already having trouble sleeping.

01:47:55

I'll give you another example. I had a dream where I was in a room, and the lights turned on by themselves in the dream, and so in the dream,

01:48:05

I was concerned, and I was like, hey, what's going on? And these children ran into my room in the dream, and these children were people from my, they were kids in my church, and they told me the lights went on in our room, and we don't know what's happening.

01:48:20

So I locked the door, and this is in the dream, of course, I locked the door, and we all had this sense of kind of an evil presence in the dream.

01:48:28

And so we began to pray, and I remember as I was praying in the dream, I had a very strong feeling that God wasn't listening in the dream.

01:48:36

And I remember banging my fist against the bed, saying, God, why aren't you listening? And at that moment,

01:48:42

I looked up into the ceiling, and the ceiling ripped open to this crazy funnel cloud in the dream, and I heard banging on the door that was so strong that it didn't feel like it was a human banging, but it was something else.

01:48:55

And the banging was so strong that the banging in the dream woke me up for real, and when

01:49:01

I sat up in my bed, I began to hear people running all over my house, and I remember standing up.

01:49:07

Now, this part, I'm awake, and I was, I remember very clearly. I got up, and I turned all the lights on in my house, and I sat in my living room, as I heard what sounded like maybe 15 to 20 people running in my house.

01:49:21

Now, let me tell you, I live in a two -story house. I lived in a two -story house, and it was just me, my brother, and my parents, and this was in three in the morning, and everyone's sleeping.

01:49:30

Now, let me make you laugh real quick. I had this dream slash actual experience when

01:49:36

I was around 22 years old, or 20, maybe 21, 20, and I slept at the foot of my parents' bed that night.

01:49:42

Wow, and of course, even if people listening will dismiss what you're saying as having some plausible explanation that did not involve the supernatural,

01:49:55

I have spoken with even the the least of sensationalist

01:50:01

Christians and missionaries and others who, either when they were in a lost state and involved in the occult,

01:50:09

I'll give you an example, even A .W. Pink, if you read A .W. Pink's biography by Ian Murray, you will find out that he was involved in the occult before he was a

01:50:18

Christian, and he believes, without question, or believed, I should say, because he is no longer with us, that things that he saw and witnessed and experienced were not trickery or the acts of charlatans or of, you know, plausible unsupernatural explanations.

01:50:38

He believed that they were things that he saw that were truly supernatural experiences of the demonic, and I have met people that were former mediums,

01:50:46

I've met people who are missionaries in South America and Africa who have experienced things that were unexplainable, but these things,

01:50:56

I am convinced, are real and can be real. Listen, Chris, just real quick, I, again,

01:51:02

I don't use this ever as kind of, like, an apologetic to demonstrate to people, you know, and in reality

01:51:09

I don't care who believes me. If you ask me the question, have I had an experience, I can tell you this was my experience, but that's not any basis for, you know, you can come up with all sorts of naturalistic explanations, it's fine, but my experience is consistent with my broader worldview, and so I know what

01:51:28

I experienced, and it doesn't jolt me in any way, since I know that these things are quite possible, given my biblical worldview.

01:51:36

Amen. Well, let me go to some more questions here from our audience.

01:51:44

Let's see here, we have Robert in Westchester, New York, who says, the classic passage in Hebrew chapter 13 verse 2, be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares, is often spoken of as if people could actually be sitting down and having a meal or some other social activity with an actual divine being, rather than somebody who is a messenger of the gospel.

01:52:16

Which do you prefer as a proper way of exegeting that passage, meaning to be a divine being, or just someone who is an evangelist of some kind?

01:52:28

I've understood that as meaning entertaining angels in the spiritual being sense.

01:52:34

I don't have any reason to doubt that that's a possibility. I mean, we know that given Scripture, angels have appeared to people.

01:52:42

We know that they could appear in different forms. Why not a mediocre form that is very normal as it appears to us?

01:52:50

You know, I don't see why that's impossible to happen, and I don't see anything wrong with having that understanding, given that particular text and what we understand of angels in general.

01:53:00

Well, having said what you did earlier about the very definition of these divine beings, that they are spirit, if an angel, in your opinion, through your biblical exegesis, if an angel were to visit us unawares, as the

01:53:15

Bible says, and it is a divine being, could you shake that person's hand? Could you have a meal with that person?

01:53:22

Were you seeing them swallow food? You know, could you hug that kind of an angel?

01:53:29

Well, that's a great question, because that goes into the very interesting notion that if an angel can manifest themselves in different forms, what is the nature of that form?

01:53:42

If it can manifest itself in a physical way, what is the nature of an immaterial being interacting with physical beings, or can a spiritual being create for themselves a physical body?

01:53:56

That's a very interesting notion. I'm surprised the question that wasn't asked wasn't in reference to Genesis 6, where the sons of God came into the daughters of men.

01:54:04

Because that touches on the very same topic. Metaphysically speaking,

01:54:09

I don't know if you can shake the hand. I'm not sure. I don't know how that interaction works.

01:54:17

I do see problems with the notion that an angel can, for example, create for themselves a physical body fully loaded with genetic material that can pass on their genes through sexual relations and things like that.

01:54:29

I don't know. I think that that may be problematic. I'm not sure. That's a great question.

01:54:35

I don't think there's enough information in Scripture where I could be conclusive, at least not that I know of.

01:54:41

Well, I would recommend people to go to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio archive, because I have done an interview with Douglas Van Dorn on his book,

01:54:53

Giant Sons of the Gods. I think that you will find fascinating. I did. That was from September 28, 2016.

01:55:03

If you type in Van Dorn, two separate words, that will come up in the Iron Sharpens Iron archive.

01:55:09

One last question that we cannot let go unanswered before we run out of time. There are people who have a totally unbiblical concept in their minds of the devil ruling and reigning in hell, and after the judgment, after the last day, the devil is going to be the king of hell, where he is just having an eternal party punishing those who are there.

01:55:43

You might have all kinds of wacky ideas where people are actually having fun there, but they have this concept of the devil enjoying being in hell.

01:55:52

But that is a place of torment for him, as well as those who are damned. Am I right?

01:55:59

Yes, that's right. The Bible speaks in the book of Revelation of the devil and his angels being thrown into the lake of fire.

01:56:05

Again, this is one of the reasons why I wanted to do a Bible study on this particular issue, is because a lot of our understanding of angels and demons is really informed by pop culture, as opposed to what the

01:56:18

Bible actually says. And so this is a perfect example. You know, even the idea that the devil is in hell right now,

01:56:25

I think, is not a defensible position. The Bible speaks about the powers of the air.

01:56:31

The devil roams this way and that upon the face of the earth. And so I think that is a very important thing to keep in mind, that he's not just sitting somewhere distant, he's very near.

01:56:44

And that's why, from a spiritual perspective, we need to be prepared, not only to combat our own sinful desires, but also that external threat of the one who roams around like a roaring lion, waiting to devour anyone he can.

01:56:58

And last but not least, the devil, I'm sure you would agree, does not have any power to do anything that God does not give him permission to do.

01:57:08

Amen. That's right. And you see this in the Book of Job, as well. It is Satan coming before God, asking permission, in a sense.

01:57:17

The devil cannot do anything, just not just the devil, but anyone. No one is able to do anything that is outside the decree of will of God.

01:57:25

You don't have these beings just able to do whatever and thwarting God's plans and, you know, doing things that God would otherwise, you know, forbid by his decree.

01:57:34

So the devil doesn't do literally anything he wants. He is on a chain, so to speak, and according to God's own good and sovereign purposes, he allows him to function in various capacities, and also in accordance with his wisdom and counsel, he holds back that chain and does not allow him to do other things.

01:57:54

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need in order to go to your special events, and also to get in contact with you.

01:58:05

First of all, your event, your study on angels and demons, you can find out more about that at MassReformedChurch .org.

01:58:14

MassReformedChurch .org. You can find out more about the event that the New York Apologetics Ministry is running at NewYorkApologetics .com,

01:58:22

and that's spelled out in two words, New York. NewYorkApologetics .com. Of course, the

01:58:28

Historical Bible Society, founded by my friend Dan Badafuco. You can find out more about that at HistoricalBibleSociety .org.

01:58:37

HistoricalBibleSociety .org. Do you have any other contact information? Yes, you can look me up on Facebook.

01:58:43

I also started an apologetics ministry called Revealed Apologetics. I know that most of your listeners are most likely

01:58:50

Reformed. I hold to a presuppositional apologetic methodology, and Revealed Apologetics will be an apologetics ministry that focuses very much on addressing things from that presuppositional,

01:59:04

Vantillian, if your listeners know who that is, method of defense. So you can look me up on Facebook, Revealed Apologetics, and of course you can also contact me at DiggingDeeper143 at gmail .com,

01:59:17

and if you have any questions, people can just contact me through there. DiggingDeeper143 at gmail .com.

01:59:27

Yes, and I have other contact information, but I'm in the process of setting things up, and then I'll shift that information when the time comes.

01:59:34

Well, I want to thank you so much, Eli. I look forward to frequent returns from you as my guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:59:41

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:48

I hope you all have, I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater