Black Lives Matter & the Gospel

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:08

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah.

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Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me!

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What? What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

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Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Colossians chapter 3, verse 9. Do not lie to one another, seeing as you have put off the old self with its practices and have been put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

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Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian,

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Scythian, slave, free, but Christ is all and in all.

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What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. I'm Jeff. They call me the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there.

02:05

What up? You guys can get more at ApologiaStudios .com. That's A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A -Studios .com.

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We're blessed to have you walking alongside of us to do this ministry together with us.

03:21

Big things on the horizon for End Abortion Now. Can't get into all that today, but just know some big stuff is happening.

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We are working, continuously working for the abolition, the criminalization of abortion, and some big stuff is happening right now.

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We're going to have an important show today. We actually have a special guest planned for today. Virgil Walker is going to join us. He was recently on Ali Stuckey's show, and he had some good commentary.

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I wanted to bring him on to talk about that. We're going to talk about Black Lives Matter and the gospel, and we realize that this is an important conversation to have today.

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We realize that it's a conversation that is impacting everybody right now. We realize that there is a lot of misinformation related to this discussion, and we realize that this is an essential issue when it comes to the gospel.

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It is a gospel issue. Tell you what, if you don't know what cultural Marxism is, intersectionality is, critical race theory is, the

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Frankfurt School, if you don't know what that is, you need to get to know it, because what you're seeing right now unfolding across the

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West is the result of a lot of planning, a lot of hard work, and no, you don't need to be conspiracy theorists to believe that.

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You just need to open your eyes and do some reading, a little bit of reading. It'll start back after we supposedly defeated communism, and the communists came here and said, no, we're going to set up shop, and it'll just take about a generation to do it.

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What you're seeing right now is a result of the kind of class conflict and warfare that has been happening over the last century and longer, and has killed a lot of people, millions and millions and millions, and millions and millions and millions of people have been killed because of this ideology, and guess what?

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It got plugged in to the United States of America, and unfortunately, even plugged into a lot of Christians, and man, are we so easily duped in evangelicalism in the

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West, are we so easily duped. And we're going to talk about some of that today, so we're going to do it, but before we do, we're going to have on one of our heroes of the faith.

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He is a great man of God, he's responsible for so much of what you see coming from us through End Abortion Now.

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Don't forget to go to endabortionnow .com, by the way, to get signed up with your church, to join all the churches who are going out to save lives.

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We've had a bunch of saves just in the last week, and of course we're all working together as the body of Christ to make this a gospel issue, and to work for justice for the pre -born to end abortion.

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Criminalize it, done away, no incrementalism, we're done. And so, endabortionnow .com.

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But we're going to have Rusty Thomas on with us, he's going to tell us about something coming up. It's a conference, and you need to plug in, watch it, and you'll be able to.

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You don't have to fly all the way out to Texas to make it happen, you guys can watch it, and let's welcome

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Rusty Thomas. Rusty, welcome to Apology Radio, brother. So good to be with you, brothers.

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Love and miss you dearly. We feel the same, man. So tell us, what is happening with the conference?

06:27

Well, brother, if you kept up with the whole process, brother, obviously with this whole

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COVID -19 insanity, we were kind of forced to postpone our original national event.

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And people thought it was because of the government, or because of the virus, and if you know us, brother, we're not moved by those things.

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We're moved by vision and mission, and getting our message out.

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But the issue was, we wanted to help Oklahoma, because that was the place that we chose for our national event this year, and we were going to go in a little early to help them politically.

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And so the vision was, yeah, we're going to go into the culture, we're going to go into the death camps, and we're going to preach the gospel of the kingdom, and then we're also going to be going in to expose the bad guys in the pro -life movement that was stopping the cause of abolition, and then work for all the abolitionist candidates, the

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Christian abolitionists, and help their campaigns. So that was the original goal and mission.

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Well, COVID -19 hit, and boy, it just, you know, we talked to the local leaders, and they said, if we do this now in the current climate, you know, it would be counterproductive, or it would actually hurt the cause.

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So it kind of pained us, brother, so we canceled the event. Well, eventually, one of the brothers,

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Daniel Navajos, he's with the Ecclesiastical Society of Oklahoma, he calls me up and he says,

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Rusty, I believe we can recuperate and revive the national event.

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And he began to give me some ideas, Jeff, and the more he talked,

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I saw the validity of what he was saying, and I said, all right, let's do this.

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And so, obviously, we're still dealing with the current climate of COVID -19, so there's going to be some changes on how we move forward with the national event.

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Now, the dates are July 19th through the 25th, so instead of the normal way we do things, where we have this sort of laser beam impact, where you have saints from all over the nation come in one location and do an invasion of the gospel of the kingdom against the gates of hell, this is going to be more like a scattered gun, like a shotgun impact.

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And what I mean by that, Jeff, is we're going to do all the seminars and all the rallies online.

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So when it comes to the seminars, in the afternoon from 2 to 3 .30, we're going to have three specific subjects for the seminars.

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One is going to be youth training, raising up leaders, a time like this demands.

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We're going to have a seminar where magistrates, Joseph Silk and Matt Shea from Washington State, they're going to be training magistrates in the cause of abolition.

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So if any of our brothers and sisters know magistrates or people who are considering running for public office, we need to get them to that seminar so they can get the training that they need when it comes to the cause of abolition.

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And then one of the seminars is going to be conducted by pastors, reaching pastors.

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And we have this incredible church resolution, I don't know if you guys saw it yet, but it came out of the

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Southern Baptist Convention in Oklahoma. And the pastors there are going to use this church resolution and to really encourage other pastors and churches and denominations to adopt this as the most biblically consistent response to this

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Holocaust. So we'll have pastors reaching pastors, and so if we know men of God, pastors and elders, we've got to get them signed up on that seminar so they can get the training that they need and they'll have access to this church resolution.

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And then of course we'll have rally speakers, and you're going to be a part of that, Jeff, and Luke, and others from Apologia.

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We're going to have strategic kingdom men giving a strategic message.

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And brothers, I talked with Luke, and please hear me on this. Jeff, Luke, guys, you see

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America, you see the condition that we're in. You know what I mean? You see what's happening.

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And I want this to be the magnet opus of the men of God, that all that God has deposited in them, all that God has shown them and opened their eyes to see, we want the message right now, the message to go forth to America at these rallies that you guys are going to be a part of.

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The only thing that's going to be a little bit different is the street activities.

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And so the way it's working out, we've got several cities, several states. In fact, we've got three nations now, brothers, that are signed up for this.

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India, South Africa, and Australia. And what we're going to do as far as street activities is when they sign up on the page for this event, and it's a $25 registration fee, that's how they access all the seminars, that's how they access the rallies, and there on the page will be all the books, booklets, literature.

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We've got a church packet, we've got a magistrate packet, and we've got handouts that people can download, copy, and distribute in their local communities.

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And so this would be a good time for local groups, whether they're in Abortion Now or OSA or abolitionist societies, they can take that week and use it to recruit in their local communities.

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So they'll have all the materials, all the packets, and they can use this to visit churches, to visit their magistrate, and to recruit other good soldiers of Jesus Christ to get on board with the vision of mission of ending this holocaust and restoring righteousness to the

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United States of America. Praise God. Okay, Rusty, where can people go to get more information?

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What's the website? They can go to our website, operationsaveamerica .org,

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and they can go to the event button there and press on that, and it'll have the information, it will take them to the registration page, they can get signed up, and once they do, we'll have their email, and that will give them all the other instructions to them, where they'll get all the materials, and where to go on Zoom and Facebook when we do the seminars and the rally.

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Awesome. Excellent, brother. Thank you so much for joining us today. Love you and appreciate you, or make sure we let everyone know what's going on.

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We'll make sure we keep eyes on this and attention on this and try to fill this thing up, brother. Well, guys, listen, hear me when

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I tell you, I deeply, deeply appreciate you all.

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And Jeff and Luke, listen, when you guys take on the burning issues of the day, you are giving a clear, clarion call to the body of Christ in this world, and I can't tell you how much

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I deeply appreciate you guys and the Lord's work through you, man. We feel exactly the same way about you, brother.

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We love you, man. We'll talk very soon, okay? Bye. Bless you guys. Bless you, brother. Thank you so much for joining us today.

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All right, guys, so now you know exactly where to go. Make sure you guys get there and get yourself signed up.

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So if you guys are new to Rusty Thomas, Operation Save America, all that stuff, just go watch the film.

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I'm hesitant to even say it so that this particular video doesn't get shadowbanned or anything because YouTube does read the audio, and we'll shut videos down or shadowban them.

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There's a movie, and it's about babies, and they are, you know, there's stuff, and then are, and then there's other things, and then stuff, and then there's murdered, and then other things and stuff, and then here.

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Go watch. Read between the lines. And then there's also one that's all the same stuff, but it's they're still here.

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Believe me. Trust me. There's a background to all this in terms of, like, working the YouTube algorithm.

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You've got to work now. You've got to put in work, right, Isaac? I've got to work. You've got to put it in the background.

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You've got to be very, very cautious with how you even describe things or title things on YouTube now or what tags you use because your video will get shadowbanned and blocked.

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So, yeah, here we go. We're going to go right into this discussion as Isaac gets our guest on.

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He's on. He's on. Okay, good. So before we actually pull him on, I'm going to talk for just a moment here. I think it's important for us to address this issue and to do it from a biblical worldview.

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Do me a favor, Isaac, real fast. Show everybody my screen there. This I saw yesterday, and let me just say...

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It hurt my heart. And I want to say that I am confused by it.

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And if you can see what it says there, it's from Lecrae, from his Twitter account. It's, for your soul, a rally celebrating blackness.

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And big black fist. You know, in history, historically, the fist symbol, not so good.

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Not so good when related to communism and Marxism.

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Not so good. I don't like the fist. But anyway, featuring Show Baraka Lecrae.

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Just, you know, Tadashi's in there. You know these people. It's a free event. And apparently it's happening today.

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I guess it's happening today. Oh, you're right. It is today. It is today, yeah. 4 to 6 p .m. at Liberty Plaza Capitol.

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Okay, for your soul, a rally celebrating blackness. I wonder... Maybe I should give this a test run here.

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I wonder if you and I could... You're a great artist. You can put together a little thing like this. And just...

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We can have one that says, for your soul, a rally celebrating whiteness. And we'll just change the color of the fist to white.

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And we'll do it... Are we still on YouTube now? Maybe we'll do it... Yeah, maybe we'll do it for this weekend. And we'll feature people who have our particular level of pigmentation.

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Yeah. Or lack of. Whatever. Lack of. And I wonder...

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I wonder how well that would be received. Now, I would never ever dream to do such a thing.

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But I wonder how that would be received. If right now, we just recreated this graphic and this little advertisement.

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And we just change the wording a little bit. We just make it a different color. You know, we're Christians. He's a Christian. And we have a rally for your soul celebrating whiteness.

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Now, I have a question. Why would that be unacceptable? I think I know why. I would think it'd be unacceptable.

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And why it would never, ever, ever, ever under any circumstance come from us.

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Because I have a biblical worldview. And I'm standing on this revelation. We're standing on this revelation. And that's just...

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Let's just confess. That's weird. And... But what creates a climate? What's...

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How do you get the zeitgeist? The spirit of the age? How do you get a culture to say,

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Now, that's acceptable. I understand that. I got it. I'll be momentarily blinded to the unbiblical nature and unbiblical worldview that's being expressed through this rally and this graphic.

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And I'll disconnect from how offensive it would be if a white person did it.

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How do we get to a place where people get so blinded, even evangelicals get so blinded, where they go,

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That sounds good. That sounds good. Yeah, that sounds good. Well, I want to say,

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It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of discipleship. It takes a lot of education and a lot of indoctrination to get a culture, and in this case,

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I'm talking to the problem, the Christian culture, that would find this at all acceptable.

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Stuff has to sort of get laid down to build up. Luke's built houses, and so he knows.

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I guess you don't just throw walls up on dirt. You probably have to get stuff laid down.

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Solid foundation. Solid foundation, so you can sort of get that thing in there nice and tight and strong, make sure the wind don't blow it down and all the rest, and you've got to make sure you do a lot of planning, get things level, and sort of start to build your way up.

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You have to build a structure for this thing to sort of like, for you to be able to hang pictures in it and put furniture in it, all that kind of stuff.

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So we're here. I mean, Luke knows. Last night, I sent this to the elders, and I think I said, yuck a lot.

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Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck, and I said the same thought was like, I'm looking at this going, I wonder if I did that as a white

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Christian, what kind of response I would get, and if people say, well, no, right now, we're in a particular moment.

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We're like, it's acceptable over here, but not over here. I would say, ah, and there you go. Put your finger on it, didn't you? That this took training, indoctrination.

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It took a new way to view the world and human beings. So with that said, we're going to bring on our friend and special guest,

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Virgil Walker. Virgil's going to join us. He was again on Alley Stuckey recently. He may have had some good commentary. I want to focus on the word of God and the gospel.

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So let's bring Virgil on to talk about it. Virgil, welcome to Apologia Radio for the first time, brother. Sure. Yeah.

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It's my joy to be with you guys. Thanks so much for having me. It's an honor. I've been watching you guys for years, been influenced by both you and your ministry.

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What I've learned in apologetics, learned in great, great detail from you guys.

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And the same way that you all learned from James White, I picked it up from you. So that may be a good thing or a bad thing, depends on how you look at it.

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No, no, it's all good. Yeah, there's a lot of cross -pollination going on between Dr. White and us and others.

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That's a huge encouragement to us. We're praising God, that God used the ministry in that way in your life, brother. Well, I want to tell you that I've always kept my eye on you and seen some great stuff.

21:27

Your recent discussion with the guys, were you in Moscow? They were in Moscow, right?

21:32

Where were they at? They were in Moscow. Oh, no, that was at the -

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I mean, I was probably here. The G3. They probably pulled me there, I mean, via Skype or some other form.

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But, yeah, I got a chance to spend time with those guys up there. Love, love, love cross -politic and those guys.

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Both Daryl and I, Daryl's my partner on Just Thinking. We love those guys.

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Knox and Gabe and all those guys. Toby and the likes. We love those guys. That's right. Tell everyone real quick so we don't lose it.

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Where do you want to point people to after the show so they can get more from you? Sure. You can check out our podcast,

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Just Thinking, the Just Thinking podcast. Myself, I'm the co -host. Daryl Harrison, lead host.

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He and I have been at this for about two years. You can check more of us out at justthinking .me,

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justthinking .me, or wherever you download your podcast, iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts from.

22:32

Excellent, brother. So I want to get into a hopefully very helpful gospel discussion.

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And by way of getting us into this discussion, talking about, quote -unquote, race, we should be saying tribes, and talking about all that we have,

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Black Lives Matter, all this stuff, and the gospel. I want to just tell you sort of like where this hit me last night.

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Luke and I were talking yesterday about like how to build this show for today, and who should we have on to make sure it's a meaningful show that's helpful to everybody who's listening, and we all learn something together from this.

23:03

I was at a restaurant last night. And Luke, I got to tell you about this because I'm trying to find the name of it. Why is this not showing me here?

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Why does it say that? Oh, okay. So I was at a restaurant last night. It's a new one. Tempe, I'm just going to type it in here real fast because I want everyone to go because it's fantastic.

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Food. Sorry, I should have had this ready. I'm going to promote it, actually.

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While he's looking that up, I'm actually wearing my brand new Fight, Laugh, Feast t -shirt, which

23:36

I don't think is available yet. Gabe sent Jeff and I special ones. Look at us promoting their show.

23:42

Cover that thing up. They don't wear our stuff. No, actually, officially, I'm going to send it to you, Chalk, right now. You're wearing an

23:47

Apologia Radio. You're all three wearing Apologia Radio, and then I'll wear that, too, when you guys put yours on.

23:55

Knox is actually at the hospital right now. They just had a brand new baby girl yesterday. Praise God. I don't even know her name.

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I just got pictures. All right. Beautiful. Here we go. Voodoo Daddy's Steam Kitchen.

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Luke, it's at Priest and Guadalupe, I believe is the road.

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Priest and Guadalupe, right? Newer Voodoo Daddy's Steam Kitchen. Absolutely, undeniably delicious.

24:21

Nice. So, so good. Everybody in my family was like, that was absolutely delicious.

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It was amazing. Is it like Cajun style? Yes, it's like New Orleans. I don't want to offend anybody. Do you have to say

24:32

New Orleans? New Orleans? Okay. So, anyway,

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I was here last night with my family, having dinner with my family, and oh, my goodness, it's so delicious. If you're in Phoenix or this area, you've got to go to this restaurant.

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It's amazing. So, anyway, I'm in this restaurant, and I went because we love that. Because, you know, downtown

24:50

Disney has the Jazz Kitchen. Yeah. It's the same situation, and we love that place.

24:55

There's such good food there. We ate there with Dennis, didn't we? I think so. Yeah, I think. Anyway. Yeah. So, we love that place.

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You know, they have the beignets and everything. You always finish with the basic, the donuts and everything. Anyway, so my family, we're in there, we're in there because we love this food, and then

25:11

I'm in it. The area we live in, like Arizona, is very diverse. Like, you have like different pockets, a lot of diverse, like a lot of different tribes, and hanging out in one spot.

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But in this particular place, I looked up, and I realized, and it just dawned on me, oh, we're the only white family in here.

25:30

And I was like, that's awesome. Like, I thought it was so cool. I was like, it's cool, because I love this food.

25:36

This is like, obviously, it's like an amazing cultural thing. Like, everyone's sort of like, this place is delicious. And then

25:42

I get up to use the bathroom, and there's this table with these two beautiful black ladies. And the girl looks at me, she goes, she goes,

25:50

Jeff Durbin? And I was like, yes. And she goes, you're Pastor Jeff, right? I said, yeah. She goes, oh my goodness, my husband,

25:57

Brian, he watches you all the time. Wow. And she goes, he watches you and Dr.

26:03

White constantly and learns from you guys. She's like, we moved from Chicago. We're at Arizona City now. We haven't been able to find a good church, and so he's just devouring the sermons and the lectures from James and from us.

26:12

And she's like, you don't understand. He doesn't just sometimes listen to you. He listens to you constantly. Wow. And I was like, oh, cool.

26:18

And praise God, God's using it. And then I said, hey, get him on your phone real fast. FaceTime him. So then

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I get on the phone with this guy, and he's like, oh my gosh. And so I said, hey, come to the studio sometime. Hang out with us.

26:30

And anyway, so I go sit down back with my family, and she gets up to leave, and I was like, hey, wait, come meet my wife and my kids.

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And so she comes over, and she comes over, and she goes, I don't want to shake your hand. I want to give you a hug. So she hugs my wife, and she hugs my kids.

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And we had this amazing conversation for like 10 minutes about the gospel, and she wants to get plugged in.

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I was like, you should come to our women's group. And she's like, absolutely. And so then she leaves. Now, here's what got me.

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All of a sudden, it hit me for a second because I wasn't really thinking about it at all. It hit me for a second that from the perspective of my family, when we were the only white family in this restaurant with only black people, it didn't bother us.

27:10

Didn't feel weird about it. Thought it was lovely, amazing. And here I met these two

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Christian sisters and their husbands, you know, he's black. He's a brother in Christ, and he's benefiting from our ministry so tremendously.

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And when she comes over, she hugs my family, hugs my kids, and there wasn't, what got me was this.

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What binds us together here is Jesus. Yeah, exactly. It was Jesus.

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Yeah. Like, do I know that I'm white and they're black? Yes. Do I care?

27:40

No. No, because I have a Christian worldview. I have a biblical worldview. And when she came over to hug my family, who she's never met in her life, she literally just walked over, and she hugs my wife and my kids.

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What was that about? What was it that in the background of all of us spiritually and in that moment was what binds us together?

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Was that she's a believer in Jesus. I'm a believer in Jesus. We're part of the family of God. There was no awkwardness.

28:07

Right. There was no tension between us. There's no fight. There's no war.

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There's no like, yes, but you owe me something or you owe me something. It was a beautiful moment.

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And then I, of course, ran across the Ally Stuckey thing and Virgil, and I was like, that's what we need to get on here to really get our voice in here to talk about the gospel and this issue of race.

28:31

And so Virgil, can you give me some preliminary thoughts right now as you're looking across the landscape? What is pinching you the hardest right now as you think about this issue?

28:41

Yeah, it's, I mean, first of all, I love the story that you told because it's indicative of the fact that we are all one in Christ.

28:50

The unity that we should have is what the gospel provides. That's Ephesians 2, right?

28:57

The barriers have been broken. Jew and Gentile have been brought together. We are all one in the body of Christ.

29:03

That's absolutely how it should be. What you expressed is the absolute joy of celebration that we should have as believers in Christ, regardless of the level of melanin in my skin or the lack of melanin in someone else's.

29:19

There should be an absolute joy when we encounter another brother of Christ. I was overjoyed, man, when you reached out and said, hey, let's talk about these things.

29:28

One, because everything that I'm hearing in Big Even and Evangelicalism is something totally contrary to the joy that you just expressed in going out, having dinner in a different cultural context, and then meeting a fellow believer in Christ and understanding the unity that you have as a result of that.

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That's right. Everything out in culture tells us there's something else that should have taken place. They wouldn't have been able to express that scenario without someone bending the knee or bowing down to something in the historic past that was done by ancestors that neither you or I know for certain we were connected to in any way, shape, or form.

30:11

Just initially, man, A, love the story. B, recognize that's the beauty of the gospel that we hold dear.

30:18

Yeah. It's tough for me because I despise hating another person because of the color of their skin.

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I think that it's ignorant. It's foolish. It's so antithetical to everything that's true about the world and God and us.

30:32

When you think about the biblical worldview and all of us coming from one initial family, we're all brothers and sisters in humanity.

30:40

And what I find so abhorrent right now, brother, it's not so much what

30:46

I see from the unbelievers and the humanists and the neo -Marxists and the cultural Marxists who have a plan.

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This is part of their worldview. It's what they do. They create class conflict to basically form revolution, to recreate society.

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I get it from them. I understand it because I go, I know exactly what you're doing.

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I see it. I know. I've read. I know your words. I know your plans. I know exactly.

31:11

I get it from your worldview and perspective what you're trying to accomplish. But what is killing me is to see evangelicals, those who profess to know

31:20

Jesus, adopt these wicked principles and methodologies and try to bring them into the church and give them a

31:27

Jesus shine. Right? This is how we do it. And I love what Dr. White said recently.

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He said, you know, you import this garbage, which is what it is, this doctrinal garbage, you import it back into the first century of the church.

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There is no Christian church. We would not exist today. We wouldn't exist today.

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I need you to tell everyone if you would, brother, because I thought you articulated it so well.

31:52

Can you give the same kind of talk, because I think it's the most helpful aspect, that you had in that clip with Ali where you talk about Acts 17 and all of us in the same family, the issue of race from your perspective, biblical perspective.

32:05

Talk to us about that. A couple of things that I definitely wanted to touch on,

32:13

Jeff and Luke. Thanks again for having me. If I hadn't said that already, I appreciate you guys. Absolutely. You mentioned how you hate what you're hearing in evangelicalism.

32:24

I'll tell you what I hate. One of the things that I absolutely hate are bullies.

32:31

Listen, Jeff, I wish I had your background with martial arts.

32:37

Maybe I'd be dangerous. I'm all of 5 '6", 160 pounds sopping wet, so I'm not going to intimidate anybody.

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But the reality is that's not the battle we wage. The battle we fight is one that is armed with the truth of God's word.

32:56

One of the things that I shared with Allie when we talked about issues of race is the idea of races, plural, is not a biblical idea.

33:07

When we look at the Bible and we want to understand a biblical anthropology, we're going to go back first to Genesis 1, verse 27, that tells us that we're image bearers of God.

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In addition to that, we're going to go to Acts 17, 26, which tells us from one man comes all ethnos, all nations of mankind, right?

33:30

The idea of race says is not something that the Bible actually embraces.

33:36

What it does say is that there's one human race and that as a result, there are many ethnicities that are a part of that.

33:43

But here's the bottom line, Jeff, Luke, we are the same race.

33:48

Amen. You and I are the exact same race. We are different ethnicities, but we are the same race.

33:56

And as a result, that's the kind of thing that unites us, not divides us. That truth that we're created in the

34:02

Imago Dei unites us. What it tells us is, yes, we're an image bearer of God, but at the end of the day, as a result of the gospel, that we need salvation, that we've all indeed sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

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And as a result of our sin, we need to look toward our Savior who again unites us under His banner of truth.

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At the end of the day, these notions of separation and segregation on the basis of melanin in the skin are sociocultural constructs that have no bearing in the foundation of Scripture and no basis from a standpoint of the manner in which

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God created us as one human race created in His image and likeness made up of multiple ethnicities.

34:49

You used the word tribe. That's exactly right. Mm -hmm. That's right. Yeah, and it's interesting because the thing that's...

34:56

If I could say, there's a pain point for me. What I want to communicate in this area as people are talking about the

35:03

Black Lives Matter movement and they're talking about issues of race and systemic racism and there's this class conflict now being created and amplified between whites and blacks.

35:12

It's interesting. It's whites and blacks. There's a lot of other ethnicities out there. What's going on with this? Create the class conflict here.

35:19

When I think about all of that together, I think in terms of like, well, what are the

35:24

Christians saying? Why are they adopting this garbage? And I ask the question, okay, show me in the

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New Testament itself, the message of Jesus and the message of the apostles, where this discussion is in terms of reconciliation and peace and peace between tribes and all the rest.

35:46

Because we all need to understand something like slavery is wicked. It's evil.

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In God's law, man stealing and enslavement is worthy of capital punishment. It's actually a death penalty thing.

35:57

So God's standard of justice is it's that wicked the person deserves to die for it. So the Bible's not unclear on the issue of man stealing and slavery, all that.

36:05

But it's been happening throughout history. My ancestors were enslaved and guess what?

36:11

Your ancestors were enslaved. You're like, well, how do you know mine were? I don't care what color you are. That's the history of the world.

36:16

That is the history of the world. Slaves. There's Irish slaves. There's every color of slave.

36:22

And it's still going on today. And so it's happening in Jesus' day. And if you're like, really, it's happening in Jesus' day?

36:29

Well, Paul literally addresses the issue. He talks to people who are slaves and to those who, at the time, were their masters.

36:37

And there's a biblical way to address that issue. And by the way, it was Christianity, the Christian worldview, each and every place it went that ultimately did away with slavery.

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So if you love the abolition of slavery, you can thank Jesus and his

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Bible for that. And so you need to know that. But here's my point. Go to the first century context.

36:56

Look at the message of Jesus. Look at the message of the apostles. And here, white evangelicals, can

37:01

I ask you a question? Can you show me where the discussion is in our New Testament that you're having right now?

37:07

Where is it? Where is it in the message of Jesus? Where is it in the message of Jesus talking about these tribes needing to reconcile on some other basis than Jesus and his perfect work?

37:21

Right? Like, where's the discussion in a New Testament anywhere that has the discussion that you're having right now when it comes to this neo -Marxist, cultural

37:30

Marxist ideology that creates class conflict and tells people that based upon the color of their skin, they are a certain thing or are guilty of a certain thing.

37:40

Now, I just want to say, and I'll hand it over to you guys here, I find this offensive because I find quote -unquote racism offensive in every corner that exists, and here's the thing.

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If you told me something, if you said, okay, listen, Jeff, black people are, and then you started saying like guilty of such and such or are codified by this or this, if you addressed a color of people, a group, and said,

38:11

Jeff, they're like this, I would find that highly offensive and racist.

38:17

Right. Racist. Right. That would be the epitome of racism saying, well, the group, the color, means they're like this or guilty of such and such.

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So, in the reverse though now, it seems highly acceptable amongst evangelicals to simply say, yeah, white people are guilty of that and we're this, and as a class, we need to identify white people as such and such, and I go, hmm, that smells familiar.

38:46

That smells a whole heck of a lot like the cultural Marxism that was being propagated in the 60s and 70s and promised to us the whole way through, and so I know what it is.

38:56

I see it for what it is. I know what it is, but we've got modern evangelicals that seem blinded by it.

39:03

So, go ahead, guys. I was just going to say, and then I'll let you jump in, Virgil. I've mentioned this before, but to jump off what you were just saying,

39:11

Jeff, all of my ancestors migrated to the States post -slavery, for starters, but too, you know this, my great -grandparents and my grandparents were missionaries in the jungles of Africa.

39:25

They laid their lives down. They moved their families there, were almost martyred. Literally got off a boat and walked into the jungle.

39:31

Yeah, like for the sake of people with black skin because they loved them and shared the gospel. That's my heritage, so I take great offense if you're going to come at me and say, well, you're white, therefore, your ancestors enslaved my people.

39:42

No, actually, they didn't. Actually, they shared the gospel with them. Yeah, yeah. Your grandfather was a Christian hero who built a hospital for people in Africa and loved and cared for those people and risked his life and his family for it.

39:54

Exactly. And your mom is African American. She is, truly. Dual citizenship. She has dual citizenship. Yes. All right,

40:00

Virgil, go ahead. I was going to just add this to the conversation, and that is, when you're listening to evangelicalism, you find one of two things happening.

40:09

Either, one, you're listening to, you know, culture tell you that racial reconciliation must take place, so that's one.

40:20

One of the things that you wanted me to share a little bit about the conversation I had with Allie, and that is, the idea of racial reconciliation is a misnomer.

40:28

It doesn't actually compute. One, we know that there aren't race says, biblically speaking.

40:34

There's one human race. Two, the idea that melanin in the skin can reconcile with other people with specific melanin in the skin is just fraudulent on its face.

40:44

Jeff, you made the point, really, earlier when you talked about the fact that, you know, if you said all of one group was this way, or all of one group was that way, there would be a problem with that kind of a conversation because it's racist because that's never actually the case.

40:59

One of the things that I stated is, if we're going to have racial reconciliation, quote unquote, with the white and black race, who is the white representative that you're going to send?

41:09

And who is the black representative that's going to represent us? And what are going to be the terms of this reconciliation that all of us are going to agree to?

41:20

This is just foolishness on its face. What it does is it sets up,

41:25

I think, and Jeff, you made the point earlier, it really sets up this neo -Marxist, this socio -cultural kind of political agenda that is being perpetrated in the culture.

41:38

But the thing that I hate about it most is watching it be adopted and adapted into church culture.

41:45

So I said there are two things happening. Either one, what you're seeing is the idea of racial reconciliation on the one end, and that's foolishness.

41:53

On the other end, what you're seeing happening is the adoption of the

41:58

Black Lives Matter language and or movement. On our podcast,

42:03

Just Thinking, one of the things that I love what Darrell says about this is that the church has adopted hashtag hermeneutics.

42:11

We've adopted hashtag hermeneutics. And we've now made a decision that we're going to read the

42:17

Bible, read Scripture, and then act pragmatically speaking on the basis of a hashtag rather than identifying what's actually in the pages of Scripture and the prescriptions that we can identify that help us reconcile one with another.

42:32

I said this. Races don't reconcile. Hearts do. And that's incredibly important for us to remember.

42:38

Very much so. Hey, Virgil, I want to continue this conversation. Can you stay with us until after commercial break? Sure. Excellent.

42:44

Okay, guys, so what I want you guys to do is stay with us, share this content across social media. Very important discussion. We've been talking a lot about, the title of the show today is

42:52

Black Lives Matter and the Gospel. So what I wanted to do with Virgil is actually we're going to go to the website of Black Lives Matter official, the organization, and sort of work through some of the stuff that they state to show you that what they believe and what they're trying to accomplish is tried -and -true, old -fashioned, cultural

43:10

Marxism to its core. I'm going to show you that as a Christian, you cannot, you should not, you ought not support something as wicked as this.

43:19

And we're going to talk about what worldview can give you a basis to say Black Lives Matter as a statement, right?

43:24

In terms of like a statement of fact, do Black Lives Matter? Which worldview can give it to you? Can the humanist, atheist, or agnostic worldview give it to you?

43:33

Can the socialist, neo -Marxist worldview give it to you? I would argue no.

43:39

That if you like the concept as a fact that Black human lives matter, then that comes from only the

43:45

Christian worldview. But there has to be more around it in terms of like that, that particular statement is connected to a whole other network of beliefs that you can't detach it from.

43:55

Otherwise, you get injustice. I would actually argue that for evangelicals to be able to engage in this cultural conversation, we need to, we have to.

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You had better start doing it. But if we want to adopt sort of a hashtag or sort of a theme, what would be better is something a little more biblical like justice for all.

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Justice for all is really actually better. And it would get at the heart of the problems that are occurring in our society rather than picking a particular skin color and saying we need to stay on that.

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We should do really what Christians have done through history and say well something like liberty and justice for all.

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That sort of thing. The sort of concepts that did away with the wickedness and systemic racism that was occurring of course with Jim Crow and all the rest.

44:43

We're going to address that. So we're coming back. Stay with us. Quick commercial break guys. Make sure you share it across your platforms.

44:49

We're going to examine some of the Black Lives Matter official website What We Believe and do some more conversation with us.

44:55

Be right back guys. I want their faith to not just be something that stands but something around which culture can be built.

45:06

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45:18

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45:25

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45:34

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45:43

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47:33

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