April 10, 2012

The Dividing Line Opens and the Day’s Topic

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Gonna get to the mailbag today and your calls as well 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 or Dividing that line via Skype if I can get the phone thing working because it says Google Chrome could not connect to blah blah blah blah blah blah, so It's it's not even trying anymore.

Unfortunately, we have a technical Difficulty it just it says it ain't there. It's not even on the planet. So I have no access to the phones. So we'll have to do some other way of doing it unless our highly paid broadcast professionals can figure out why that just doesn't work anymore for me and If they can then we can we can figure that out.

Hopefully by the time I have to get around to doing that. Maybe we will see I'll try bringing up a different browser possibly or who knows what I don't know. But anyhow good to be with you. I was in Cincinnati Over the course of the weekend and.

I.

Had a great time there. For those of you who know Lane chaplain and Susan Yenser I officiated at their wedding and That was that was a great honor. I Felt very small. I've Never ever ever seen as Tall a woman as.

Susan's.

Maid of honor never. When I first saw her I'm like no way dead. No, but she was wearing these big pumps as big heels and She did not need them. Let me assure you she did not need them. Because with them on she was seven feet tall.

And so she's staying right to my right I'm just sort of like I Mean, there's there's more than a foot, you know, it's like wow. That's mm-hmm. Okay, but anyway had a great time with them. Many of you have benefited from.

From Lane's YouTube channel. He has a lot of Paul washers stuff and and stuff like that and. So, you know Lane and we've we've known about We've known that this wedding was coming eventually. It just just took took a while to get there that's all and it was it was it was really an honor for it to be the one to pronounce them as Husband and wife and and all that kind of stuff and it was it was great.

So great to see two young Christian people joined together in marriage in that way. And that was that was a great thing and we got to speak at first Baptist Church of Mount healthy. Mount healthy. Everybody has a question What is Mount healthy?

How does a amount? Get named healthy. How does that happen? Well, it's actually on their website and someone told me about it I guess back in the 1850s or something there was a Cholera epidemic and And For some reason it only affected the people down the valley and not up on the mount.

So it became known as Mount healthy because the people on the mountain were healthy and the people down in the valley were sick. So it became Mount healthy. Well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe all the people in the valley moved up the people on the idea.

I don't know but anyway That's that's how it got named run healthy. So anyways, I did the Good Friday service there and then I Spoke with the youth on Saturday concerning reliability the text of New Testament and I did a Common objections to to the resurrection presentation on Sunday morning, so I did some some ministry while there but the main reason we were there was for the wedding of Lane and Sue who are now Happily married.

Do you think I can see that from here? P .m. Yeah, I know that scrolls and I can't see it very well. So I I did see that. But yeah, there is the phones are dead. Because I did neither of my systems even it's not even it evidently is no longer connected to the net.

The internal network at all. So As soon as you hit it, it doesn't say it doesn't say anything other than it's not there. There is no dot 120 anymore, so evidently it's using a different IP address now or something.

I don't know but I Can't get to it. So That is something that we will need to put on the let's not forget to fix this by the time we do the next program list of things to do because it's been happening a lot and It needs to need stuff.

Let's yes. I'll get right on replacing the stack then. Okay. Well Probably about $2 ,000. Yeah. Well, I don't really think it needs to be replaced. I think it needs to Know which IP it's supposed to be on or something.

It may have moved. I mean you said we hadn't had a surge and It knocked out one of the cameras. So maybe it maybe it confused a except it was off during the search.

Yeah, well and it's on now now, okay.

Well, my system says it's not where it's supposed to be.

Looking at it through my Windows unit there, but your Mac unit over there can't see it anywhere. Well, you know.

Pride on having to do with that. But anyways. In the mailbag, we have some interesting emails that have been sent in and I rarely rarely have time to to write lengthy email responses to folks. I try to look through and and if there is a.

A way of making it educational to other folks. Then I will try to do to do so and so for example, we have someone who has written in from across the pond and He was talking with a a Muslim friend, which happens a lot.

Some of you saw on Twitter on my trip back from from Cincinnati. I had the two different opportunities the same day to talk with Muslims. One was the cab driver from Morocco who was driving me from the church to the Cincinnati Airport and We had a very interesting conversation and then I had brand new shoes I had.

I bought some brand new shoes very comfy. But they didn't really have a nice shine on them when they come out of the box I guess because they've got some silicone stuff on them or something like that I don't know so I want to get a shoe shine at the only place to do that's in an airport and I come around a corner and lo and behold, there's a there's a guy and these there's no but there's no line so I go over and tell him, you know, I've got these shoes and and he starts working on them and I notice his shirt and his name on his shirt is Malik and.

So I'm like. And so I start the conversation and it was it was a very good conversation very useful conversation. With Malik at the and he did a great job. If you are looking for a great shoe shine in the Charlotte International Airport.

Over.

Where was that? That's between it's it's sort of over toward the TSA entrance between B and C. No, no, no, no. No. Oh. It's for all the restaurant. It's it's it's just past where the Chili's is where all the restaurants are in the middle where the rocking chairs are.

If that tells you anything, I think it's B and C concourses if I recall correctly, but It might be C and D. I don't know. Anyway, that's where I was and he did a great job. I mean I even compared them with I got two pairs and I got compared the other one not even not even not even a Beginning of a comparison did a great job.

So anyways, we had a great conversation as well. So these things come up so here's a guy over in UK and he's Speaking with a Muslim and he says during the discussion he asked me about when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane and when he pleaded out to God to see if there was any other way for Salvation and the blood covenant to happen rather than crucifixion.

Well, that's why there's a there is a large Insertion of Of Theology into that we'll have to deal with. His argument was that Jesus cannot be part of the Trinity just a holy man or a prophet. As if he was all-knowing and all-powerful, he wouldn't be asking God for other possibilities.

He would already know the answer. It seemed to him that this was a manly act not a godly one. He further argued that Jesus was in this way subordinate to God the Father as if he was asking permission.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. I may not have the best understanding the scripture of the Trinity, but your help be gladly appreciated. Well there it is very common For Muslims to raise objections based upon the prayers of the Lord Jesus in the garden partly because they have the Wrong idea of what the Trinity is they have a a tritheistic Viewpoint rather than a Trinitarian viewpoint.

I think we are tritheists and I think that we believe in many gods and and all the rest that stuff. And so that leads them to a general misunderstanding at that point. But also because they do not understand the sin-bearing that the Lord Jesus undertakes and That he was fully aware fully aware of What it was that he was going to be doing in Taking on the sins the world.

He who knew no sin was going to be made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in him and That becomes really the the issue that needs to be Addressed the the Muslim simply does not have the background at that point.

To.

To really understand What's going on in in the garden and so they they view Jesus in a way there that is. That is inaccurate and you have to somehow overcome that particular problem. They don't have an understanding that There is a need for atonement.

They don't have an understanding that there is a need for substitution. So all these things come together. And they're interpreting Therefore that particular text of scripture in a foreign context. And so if someone were to raise that objection to me, I I would say well first of all you need to realize that Jesus is the God man and as he was a perfect man the idea of coming under the the wrath of the Father.

He was not afraid of death. There's there's been many a man who has gone to his death.

Bravely.

There's been many a man who who knew in the in the in the upcoming battle or whatever else it might be that he was going to probably lose his life and there have been many who have who have engaged in that in a.

You know in a in a in a perfectly brave fashion. And unless you're going to accuse Jesus of being a coward and I have actually believe it or not had a few Amazingly odd Muslims who have made that accusation.

Which is which is a sad one, but it has happened unless you're going to make that type of accusation. Then clearly Jesus's words do not indicate some fear of the the beating or the crucifixion. What is it that?

Causes the Lord Jesus to say to cry out in the garden the way that he the way that he does and.

Yet.

To say not my will but thine be done and to go through I Mean he knew this was coming. He had already prophesied this to two disciples. It is necessary. He said that the Son of Man go to Jerusalem. He'd be betrayed in the hands of the leaders and that he'd be crucified and buried and rise again the third day.

It was it was it was part and parcel of what he had told the disciples and disciples had rejected it. I Of you know May it never be far far be it Lord. And and what is what does Jesus say to Peter get get behind me?

Get behind me Satan. You're not minding the things of God the things of men and so he had prophesied this. He knew this was coming. He knew that it was absolutely necessary and yet to be the Holy Son of God Who has had perfect?

Communion with the Father for eternity and Yet to then become the object of the wrath of God for every sin for every vile thought and action of Everyone who believes in Christ for all of God's people to be to be laid upon him All of the elect sin laid upon the sinless Son of God.

Certainly certainly. That would be something that That if Jesus was truly the God-man he wouldn't just go Walking into that without without concern. It wouldn't be just something. Oh, well, hey, you know, I'm God.

I can do anything. No, he's the God-man and To to become the object of God's wrath. What a the father's wrath what a tremendous Tremendous thing that would be and so there is the prayer and there is that struggle and there is the the sweat.

As if blood doesn't say it was blood. It was as if he was he was he was laboring so in Prayer not trying to change the father's mind but in light of what was about to happen and I just don't think that well, I don't think most Christians have ever.

Well, no Christian has ever plumbed the depth of the great exchange of Of the you know, he who knew no sin Being made sin in my behalf that I might become the righteous of God in him I mean that is a a theme and a subject that we will be pondering for eternity to come the the great condescension that is seen there and So if if we don't even have.

An.

Appropriate.

Appreciation and Probably do not spend the kind of time That we we should Contemplating that particular aspect of Our own redemption it would be something that should take up our mind regularly. Then certainly we can understand that the Muslim will not have that kind of a of a mindset either.

Unfortunately and Unfortunately, if we do not contemplate it if it is not something that's precious to us We will struggle to explain it to the Muslim. But on the positive side There can be a tremendous benefit in Expressing the great condescension and love of God the triune God.

To a.

Muslim especially when you can make it personal when you can say, you know, he's talking to this this Muslim who is. This is I can tell it's from the UK because he says my Muslim flatmate. That does not mean that he lays flat.

That means his roommate for those of us on this side of the this side of the pond.

To.

Explain to him that that my very eternal life my acceptance with God my my forgiveness my adoption in the family of God all of this is Based upon what Jesus Christ did for me. That allows you the opportunity of answering the question answering the objection and Saying what else would you expect from the God-man if.

Because again really what's behind this is a fundamental rejection of the incarnation. Not so much anything else. It's just. You know, I mean you'll you'll see the same kind of objections coming from Abdullah Kunda in our debate in in Sydney.

Well, the practical ramifications are this doesn't fit into our paradigm because we don't allow for a Paradigm where there could be such thing as the God-man where there can be such a situation as where God takes on perfect human nature, but if that happened for the purpose of the voluntary self giving of The Sun in the place of God's people so that they might have eternal life.

Would he not?

See.

That experience as As well the very pinnacle of the incarnation the pinnacle of his purpose in coming and to be something of Tremendously a Tremendous challenge to to experience the The wrath of the father.

I mean if he just went waltzing into that if there wasn't a garden I would say that would be more of an objection. When you think about it, I Mean if there was if if Jesus just came walking into that like well, I'm going to Jerusalem now guys This is what's gonna happen, but they don't worry about it.

In fact, you know, let's let's Play some games tonight. Let's let's not worry about because you know, I'm God I can just know that would that would be an objection that would be. That way that would show a lack of seriousness and a lack of depth to the actual Understanding of what's going on and so.

This is not an argument against Jesus being a deity. And how would I respond to it? I I would would point out that Jesus prophesied this the nature of what he was going to undertake that.

He.

Struggled with truly taking on The the sins of of of his of his people as You would expect any perfectly holy person to do but it was not a matter of. How did I put here.

As.

If he was all-knowing and all-powerful, he wouldn't be asking God for other possibilities. He would already know the answer. Well, it's not a matter of knowing the answer. It's not a matter that he didn't know that in the eternity past the Father Son and the Spirit had Chosen this as the as the one way by which the triune God would be glorified.

But again If you are perfectly holy and you have had unbroken perfect communion with the Father for all of eternity and now the wrath due to all of the impurity and Unholiness and unrighteousness of man was going to fall upon you how else would a a godly man respond but in prayer and To cry out as Jesus did.

And so I would express that reality and and go to 2nd Corinthians 521 the explanation of what the result of that is and then use that as a as an opening to then present the gospel and The absolute necessity.

And then you know what I would finish with I would say if Jesus's words here are true and if the Father lays upon the Son.

The.

The wrath due to all of God's people. Could there possibly be any other way of salvation if there's some other way. Then you are saying that that what the Father did the Son here was absurd. Isn't that Paul's point in Galatians?

He says if if righteous has come by any of means then then Christ died needlessly. It was it was a charade and so I would press The the Muslim at that point and say think about it if this really is what you what you have going on here then the idea that there can be any other way or the idea that there can.

It could be a simple matter of just well, you know, you just you just trust in God and and That that's all that's that's necessary and you don't have to worry about it. No. This must be the only way this must be the only way of salvation and That's that was is how I would respond to that.

James as a Leader in the Jerusalem Council

Well, look at that. I have a connection. But it's it's no longer allowing me to have a username. Well, no, it's got a connection but I have a nice connection up right now. Thank you very much on my on my Mac machine here.

Y 'all need to forgive Rich he he clearly has a very bad case of window of Mac envy and it's it's a sad thing to see but We've all seen it. I you know, I was once one of those that walked in darkness and now I've seen a great light and so we.

Yeah, well when that fails just look to your right I'll see you'll see the Mac that the Windows machine still holds it without any sweat. You know, no timing issues it really doesn't.

Since this has worked very very well in the past then clearly something has happened in the in the network.

Because everything is still working. Just really. When was the last time you got a Mac upgrade or change or a modification? No, that never happens.

Not not nearly as often as Windows does it buddy? Let me tell you.

Again it drops a whole lot more often than let me tell you. That's great over there. Don't. Yeah, so is mine.

Okay, so is mine right in front of me here. Anyway, before we go to to the phone calls and try to help rich to get over his Mac envy. I Have another one here that I want to to get to. There's one longer one one short.

Let me do a short one right now. Then we'll then we'll take the call then we'll go with a long one depending on how many folks Get online at eight seven seven seven five three three four one or dividing that line via Skype.

This one. I don't know. It's so short that it's hard to read things into it but I Just sort of wonder where the The author is coming from it's this is a whole. This is the whole email. Regarding your view on James the just and his role in the early church from what I have read It looks as if he presided over the Jerusalem Council in acts of teen.

Do you agree that he held a position of authority? Yeah in fact when I debated Jerry Matitox back in. When was that? When when was when was Denver? That was 93, okay, so we're coming up on the. Are we coming up in the 20th?

Oh my goodness 20 years ago.

Oh.

Man could you get me some Gerrit all rich? You got to have some extra cuz you're older than me. Wow man, we're coming up on we got to do some special 20th anniversary special edition of that or something.

I mean. Seven and a half hours with Jerry Matitox and you know what bums me out the most. We didn't take a picture of His desk after the second night of it. Oh. Do you remember it? Oh. My goodness, I I I forget I was I was standing there.

Talk. Was it. Was I talking to you? I Was talking with somebody else. Oh. Was it. Was it him? Okay, we're standing there. We're up on the stage this Presbyterian Church second night of this debate we did in 1993 in Denver with Jerry Mattox.

First night was a Denver Seminary the second night was his Presbyterian Church and I'd say this but a live update screen just popped up on your Windows machine. Yeah, but is stack still there uh-huh.

Yeah, but the Asus live update wants to. Anyway and we're standing there after the debate and we look over at Jerry's now. Jerry Matitox today and The split had already pretty much happened with Catholic answers that it had started it had started and You know today Jerry Matitox is running around he goes to holiday inns and he talks to half a dozen people about the Illuminati and and all the conspiracy stuff and and.

It's just he has just gone so far out into the woods that that even his Roman Catholic friends have no idea. Where he is on the radar screen any longer. Yes. Oh. You. Well you put the microphone in front of you.

And I was just gonna chime in after you told the story and ask you. You remember when we ran into Carl on the street.

It was in between. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes was he with Patrick. I think he was yes. And they had been talking to some seventh-day Adventist or something right and then of course they were.

Debating. Who was it? They were debating a debate. It wouldn't have anything to do with you for a debate during the right, right?

They they debated Jackson and Nemec. Yes member in the great disaster of Denver. Oh, yeah. Oh, that was one of the most painful debates, which they I think fully well knew. They know exactly what they were doing.

You better believe they did. No, no question about it. But anyway we're standing there after the debate and. Well, they had set they're like six-foot tables just a standard sort of you know, and you have in church churches.

Yeah, six-foot tables everywhere and each one of us had had one and I'm staying there talking with. I think it was Tim Philabosian and I've already packed all my stuff up. I had this was before I had digital copies of like the early church fathers and stuff like that.

Even though I'd still like to get the Logos version of that. I've only got PDFs. But anyway, and.

So.

There's there's a my silver metal Book bag and another book bag are on the edge of the table that the chairs pushed in and that's all there is. And then you look over it at Jerry's table. There is you can see about two square feet of the top of the table.

Everywhere else there are books Open on other books that are open and Yellow pieces of paper everywhere and then under his desk. This was what caught my attention. Under his desk on the floor. The only spot that is where you can see the carpet directly under his desk.

That's not covered with yellow notebook paper and books and bags and everything else is where his feet were it is a disaster area and He's standing there talking to somebody and I'm standing there and I sort of look over at him and he sees me looking at his stuff and He says to me he says Okay, you win the organization part or the debate or something along those lines.

It was absolutely Hilarious, it's one of those things. I've just I've just never forgotten. Anyway, I Brought out the issue of James as part of my argumentation because Peter was at that council and It is clear that James is the one who gives the decision of the council.

I have argued it in Acts chapter 15 he's the only one that uses the imperative voice and All the rest of this stuff and so I You know, I've not had any problems whatsoever in in pointing out that James Had authority in that context.

Including when Peter is there but if Peter was viewed as The way Rome says he was viewed at that time. Then how could that possibly be how could that follow and So yes James had I mean we had we had bishops and churches and And My suggestion to whoever it was that wrote this question would be look especially at the debate that I did with Mitch Pacwa on the subject of the Roman Catholic priesthood because we went into a fair amount of detail on the subject of.

What the the offices of the church What the officers and offices and officers of the church were and So I think it would be important to maybe take a look at that. That would be of help to you. So that was the short one the longer one Sort of takes us away from this particular subject and Greg in Texas has a subject that's be relevant here.

So let's let's talk to Greg in Texas. Hi Greg. Are you doing good?

I've been studying Roman Catholicism not too long ago. I'm just friends now and It just really encouraged me to study the subject more and I come from a really struggling on studying Roman Catholic well a.

Couple things you need to have a. You can get a fairly basic Setup of books that you need from the Roman Catholic perspective. You need to have their their resources. Need to have the Universal Catholic Catechism.

You need to have the Documents of Vatican to there's a compendium document compendium book that comes with Vatican to. It's the documents cited by Vatican to it's another big honking thing. You need to have Trent and Need to have some good church history material such as as shafts work.

Especially as he deals with Vatican one and the issue of papal infallibility and stuff like that. But I would say as far as subjects goes. Every subject you're gonna address. I mean you can. You can go into the Marian dogmas.

You can go into the Eucharistic sacrifice. You can go in the concept of the priesthood. You can go into purgatory. You can go into The papacy in history and and all of these issues and all every single time I don't care who you're debating or what the context is.

You're eventually going to get back to.

The.

Fundamental issue which is solo scriptura versus solo Ecclesia.

Yeah, that's that's something I realized right off the bat and I bought a book called Yeah, and yeah, that's a really good book so far.

Yeah, it's it's helpful. I think that you need to. Some of the issues it raises regarding solo versus solo. I don't necessarily agree with. Especially the the view of tradition that it presents. I think that you need to.

I.

Would recommend the three volume set that That we have available by David King and William Webster. Okay, good. Yes, it's only it's only 1100 pages. So I get to that right away. But it is good it's a good.

Obviously, especially the third volume is primarily for resource but the first two volumes I would recommend working through all of them because That's extremely helpful. And then there are classic works from history that that are excellent such as George Salmon's work the infallibility of the church and which Do we have I don't?

Was infallibility of the church reprinted do we have that in our in our bookstore or not? Don't think so, but we have. What's the one that we do have from. No, not the Holy Scripture. One Names escaping me.

I know it's out there on the shelf. So I know it's in our thing. Oh.

It's.

Great Puritan scholar and and it's just just blown right out of my mind. Unfortunately, there's an excellent. I'll look it up. Eventually a Whitaker. Thank you for our Shadden channel. Help me out. Whitaker's Disputation.

Holy Scripture. There we go.

That's.

If you've got Whitaker Salmon and the Webster King stuff, you've got a you've got a real a real good start there as far as Dealing with the development of doctrine in history. Unfortunately, no matter what you do in dealing with Roman Catholicism church history is is exceptionally important especially the early period and so there's a number of like Chadwick's book on the history of the early church and stuff like that and you'll discover the early church is a mixed bag.

I mean just like today you've got you've got people that are really solid and people are not all that really solid. Well, you had the same thing in the early church and Unfortunately, most Roman Catholics have a very unrealistic and a historical and in fact forcibly anachronistic View of the early church, I guess I need to explain because I don't think I've ever used that phrase before.

But I think it's a good phrase forcibly an ass anachronistic means that Because of the later development of the doctrine of the infallibility of the church and in particular the infallibility of the Pope once Rome says, you know make statements that In her in her documents when she defines things she will often say things along the lines of as The church has always taught or as the fathers have always said.

Well, what that means is if you accept that authority then that's what you have to find in the early fathers whether they actually believe that or not and so it's it's a forcibly anachronistic interpretation to where.

Especially when it comes to the nature of Christ's presence in the supper. You you have just an amazing amount of reading back into history. Concepts that just simply hadn't had no place in that original context.

You just they can't help it they have to do it because of.

The.

The definitions that have been provided by the Roman hierarchy. But fundamentally you will need to really understand what sola scriptura is and what it is not because it is almost never accurately represented by Roman Catholic apologists.

And You will have to avoid defending Perspectives on that that we don't actually hold. Because you will often have again Roman Catholic apologists trying to force you to do that. But then it is also helpful to recognize that there's a bunch of garbage out there from non Roman Catholics on the subject of Roman Catholicism, so.

There's you know, if it basically if it's a cartoon I'd avoid it. Okay, you get to get the hint there, you know, you know. If it's if it's if it's written In cartoon form you might want to you know, look for something a little more Substantive than that.

Yeah a little more solid than that.

Yes, sir. Well, what were the names of those? Authors she said.

George George Salmon. This one we don't have I wish we did but George Salmon's book the infallibility of the church Was very useful to me. It's well written and and really it was written at a time Of Cardinal Newman in in England, and it's very well done they've tried to write some responses to it, but I don't think they they did a very good job and then Whittaker's book Disputations and whole in Holy Scripture, I believe it's called that we do have at alman .org.

What's that? On Holy Scripture, thank you. And we have that available ours actually is the condensation the one volume condensation. I believe it's oh, it's thick I know but the original is four volumes.

So it's okay. It's you can still get that in some places, but I don't think it's currently in print. You might have to find it on online or something like that. But if you've got Whitaker Salmon and the Webster King set, you've got a real a real good start there real good start there.

Yeah, I don't know. We're there. They're just beating down the door, but you go ahead. Yes, yes over here and by yep in Texas, yes, and I'll be doing a a debate. The day before. So I need in fact. That just crossed my mind.

We need to get that's that information to Micah for a banner ad real real quick because it's coming up I think it what is that September? I Think it's is it in September. Is that when the Psalm 119 conference is is it it's in October?

Okay. All right. Yeah, I don't have my calendar in front of me. So I will have to get that information. All I know is I'm gonna be home like four days in October the way it's going. I'm gonna be very very very very busy in in October.