July 5, 2021 Show with Bill Ascol & Dusty Deevers on “The Southern Baptist Convention Abortion Abolition Resolution”

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this fifth day of July 2021

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I trust everyone listening has had a blessed and refreshing and relaxing time to celebrate

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Independence Day with your family friends and loved ones over the weekend and in fact that may be going on right now since many people have a day off from work on the

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Monday after the 4th of July but today we have a very important discussion

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I believe all of our discussions on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are important but this is really vital involving the rescue of unborn children the attempts by God's grace and mercy to bring an end to the horror and the satanic blight on this country and the globe known as infanticide or in the more cleaned up version known as abortion today we are going to be discussing the

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Southern Baptist abortion abolition resolution that was co -authored by my guests

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Bill Askill senior pastor of Bethel Baptist Church in Owasso Oklahoma and also

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Dusty Devers a pastor of Grace Community Church of Elgin Oklahoma and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you two brothers to the program for the very first time and Pastor Bill if you could first let our listeners know about Bethel Baptist Church in Owasso Oklahoma.

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Okay I have been a pastor of Bethel in my 16th year here we're just we're located just north of Tulsa so up in the northeast corner of the state it's a wonderful family of faith taking the gospel to our neighborhood and to the nation's

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I have the privilege of serving these folks for all these years but precious people they love the

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Lord they love the lost and they're all on board with this initiative that we began here in Oklahoma a few years ago to see abortion abolished.

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Well if anybody wants more information about Bethel Baptist Church in Owasso Oklahoma go to BethelOwasso .org

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BethelOwasso .org Now if we could Dusty Devers if you could give our listeners a summary description of Grace Community Church of Elgin Oklahoma.

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Well Grace Community Church is a Reformed Baptist Church we planted it five years ago in May and it was formerly

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First Baptist Church of Elgin and we did what I call a Revita plant we did a revitalization with the church plant we have three elders three pastors that I labor with and the body has just been so kind and generous to receive the word implanted and they have been earnest to receive the word so just a wonderful church a wonderful community of faith and I just thank

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God every day that I get to be alongside these brothers and sisters in our declaring the glory and supremacy of King Jesus.

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Amen and I believe if I'm not mistaken that the only website you have is your

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Facebook page correct? Yeah right now we're updating our website.

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Okay well for right now go to Grace Community Church Elgin E -L -G -I -N on Facebook and you'll find that page and Brother Bill if I'm not mistaken you are the brother of my dear friend of many years

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Tom Askell the president of Founders Ministries correct? That's correct

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Tom and I started Founders Ministries back in 1983 and I was on the board for a while I went off the board

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I'm back on the board now Tom's a wonderful man of God.

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Yes he is and I look forward to having him back on the show. Well tell us about the recent

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Southern Baptist Convention meeting. We had a full program on that recently with my dear friend

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Pastor Josh Bice who is founder of G3 Ministries.

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He gave us a very detailed description of what occurred but if you folks both of you and perhaps we'll start with Dusty can give us a description of what occurred as far as the

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Southern Baptist for abolishing abortion is concerned. Well we had a plan going into the annual meeting this year to present the resolution on abolishing abortion.

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We put together about a year prior to had several readers and contributors look at several theologians and pastors and authors and scholars and put together what we feel like is a

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God honoring Christ exalting church benefiting and pre -born neighbor you know fighting for their lives resolution.

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As our strategy going into the annual meeting was that we would pass out hopefully around 7500 copies of the resolution on abolishing abortion.

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We had another booklet written by my good friend James Silberman with Free the States called

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Are You an Abolitionist? We passed out a lot of those at the founders event the day before on that Monday and then we were able to pass out 1000 copies at the

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Conservative Baptist Network breakfast. And then we had several folks on the streets passing out the resolutions we did some street preaching as well but we weren't involved with there was another group that was out there that kind of Westboro type radicals we weren't involved with them.

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But going into the annual meeting we were concerned that we might not be able to have a hearing with our resolution and so that's why we wanted to have a good ground game get the information out.

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And really our ultimate goal was to glorify

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God in everything that we did and to ensure that the resolution would be read by folks so that they could see what

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God's word says about ending this holocaust in our land of abortion.

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And so we had a lot of folks who had read it the messengers

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I think were ready you know most messengers are just like us they read their

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Bibles and they eagerly want to receive God's word and to study it and see if these things are true from God's word.

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And so the resolutions committee on that Tuesday didn't bring our resolution out and so Brother Bill here made an amendment to bring it out and I don't know if you want to go in depth in that right now but they did bring it out.

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And the messengers voted probably 90 % or more in favor of hearing the resolution and so that was heard on Wednesday and there was some debate that ensued and a single insignificant change was made and it was passed by the messengers this year.

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So it was I'd say a pretty successful thing that happened and it's

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God's grace on us as a convention to call us to address the most urgent and horrific holocaust in our world right now.

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Over 3 ,000 babies are murdered every day in the United States and over 150 ,000 around the world every day.

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I'd say it's very urgent. That's a good question

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Chris. In our convention bylaws, when we get together for our annual meeting, the platform people actually are in charge of the convention.

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Whoever's on the platform for their particular responsibilities are in charge. So there's a resolutions committee that's appointed by the president.

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J .D. Greer was the outgoing president. He appointed resolutions committee and they go through resolutions.

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We're required to submit a resolution to this committee no later than May 31st.

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They look over them and then they decide of all the resolutions presented which ones they're going to bring to the convention for consideration.

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As Dusty said, ours was not brought out and we were suspicious that that would happen and that's why we went ahead and took sort of a preemptive strike to be sure that messengers had an opportunity to read ours.

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When the time came for a resolution to be presented, ours was not listed in the daily bulletin.

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At the right time, I had already reached out to the parliamentarian prior to the convention to make sure that my thinking was clear on parliamentary procedure.

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If indeed our resolution was not presented. So at the right time, I was given an opportunity to speak and I asked for the president to allow me to make a motion to bring the resolution out of committee that would require a two thirds vote of the messengers to overrule the decision of the resolutions committee.

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I was allowed to speak to that. As Dusty said, the messengers voted probably close to 90 % to bring it out.

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That's historic. I've been going to Southern Baptist Convention meetings since 1979.

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I talked to my favorite convention historian, Dr. Tom Meadows. I asked him, had he ever known of this happening?

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And he said he did not know of this happening, where a resolution was brought out over the protest of the committee.

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So we got it before the floor of the convention. As Dusty said, there was a little debate the next day. It was adopted by the convention.

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So for the first time in the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, two things happened. One was the resolutions committee was overruled.

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Second, a strong resolution using the language of abolition was adopted by the convention.

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I may need to add, I'd like to add, resolutions are not in the form of business motions where something changes at an entity level.

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A resolution is a snapshot of the disposition of the messengers at that particular annual meeting.

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But it does show the pulse of the convention. So while if you get on the phone,

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Chris, and start calling around to the six seminaries, call the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and say, what are you going to do in the light of the resolution on abolishing abortion?

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They could say, if they wanted to, well, we do not respond to resolutions, da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

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But Southern Baptists have spoken on this. The discussion of abolition is on the table.

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It's not going away. And even since the convention, momentum is building on the part of grassroots

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Southern Baptists to see our institutions and agencies take a more proactive stand, because we believe the secular pro -life industry has failed us, and at root has no intention of seeing abortion abolished.

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Now, you brought up something very important. Many of us will routinely use the phrase pro -life as merely a generic description that we are opposed to the murder of unborn children.

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We have elected officials who actually believe it is not only acceptable to murder an unborn child up until the ninth month, but also they think it is completely acceptable for a baby who has been born, quote -unquote, accidentally during an abortion attempt.

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They think it's absolutely acceptable for a mother and her doctor to decide whether that baby who has been born, whether or not that child lives or dies.

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So many people, I even use it often as a part of the vernacular, describe myself as pro -life.

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But what is the difference between the, quote -unquote, pro -life movement and what you are saying? I guess we'll start with Dusty.

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Yeah. I think fundamentally, we're saying abolitionism, whether you're talking about slavery abolitionism or the abolition of abortion, abolitionism simply asks, how does

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God, through his word, command the bride of Christ to address and combat the great evil of the unjustified premeditated murder of pre -born humans in our society?

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Now, you can ask that about slavery, you can ask that about any number of evils, but abolitionists are firmly grounded and planted in God's word and are answering the question of dealing with great societal evils in our society.

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And this one particularly, we call ourselves abortion abolitionists. And our answer on how you deal with it is to officially cease murdering the pre -born immediately without exceptions that legalize murder or compromises with the culture of death.

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So the big difference between abolitionism and pro -life -ism as an industry or as a kind of professional movement that it has become is that abolitionism fundamentally is a biblical response to great evils.

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And it is the work of the people of God. We talk about the five tenets of abolitionism.

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We say it's gospel -centered, it's aligned providentially, it's through the church, it's engaged biblically, and it's sought immediately without exception or compromise.

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Pro -life regulationism for the past 48 years has sought to regulate murder, not stand where God's word stands, but to regulate it.

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And for 48 years, we've been playing on a football field without any end zones that is coached not by God's word, but by a humanist worldview.

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Now that's not to say that many pro -lifers aren't doing what they believe is all that they can do or what

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God demands. It's that we can be participating in something unintentionally and unintentionally be wrong.

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So pro -life -ism basically submits to Roe vs.

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Wade as the ultimate authority, and so we can't do anything because SCOTUS, the

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Supreme Court, hasn't given us permission. And abolitionists say, well,

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Jesus is king over all the universe, and he is the one who has all rule and authority and power and dominion and has a name that's above all names, and he is putting everything under his feet, and he's doing that as he is the head of the church.

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And so the church is to be responding to these great societal evils as God commands, not as the

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Supreme Court commands. The Supreme Court is supposed to be bowing to King Jesus as well.

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So I know that was a lot there, but in essence it's saying, how does God demand we deal with murder and these great evils of aborting and murdering our children, and so let's do what he says and not regulate the slaughter of the pre -born in our land.

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Chris, also I would add, like you, I would have identified myself as pro -life.

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I've been in this battle since I pastored in Louisiana decades ago, and I would have called myself at that point a principled pro -lifer.

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In other words, I was working for legislation with our Louisiana legislature, and no exceptions bill, we were working on that, a clean bill.

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A constitutional attorney at LSU in Baton Rouge taught us that the only thing that has any hope of standing up before the

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Supreme Court is a bill that doesn't have any exceptions. It's equal protection, equal justice for every human being born and pre -born.

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So I was in that arena, and for the longest would have called myself a pro -lifer, a principled pro -lifer.

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Then I began to bump into pragmatic pro -lifers, people who would say to me, well, what you're trying to do is good, but it's just not possible, it's never going to work.

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There was the pragmatism, and that frustrated me, so I had to distinguish myself. Well, I'm a principled pro -lifer.

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Then I began to bump into political pro -lifers, these politicians who kept getting elected and reelected, promising to end abortion, vote for me, support my campaign, we'll end abortion.

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Time and time again, it never happened. Then there was the ugliest animal in this whole pro -life industry, the professional pro -lifer.

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He has a fundraising list, he makes millions and millions of dollars off of good -hearted people, promising that if you'll support his cause, he'll lobby the legislature, he'll lobby the

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Congress, so that abortion can be ended. Well, I'm not playing the game anymore.

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So a couple years ago, I came out as an avowed abolitionist. I would say to anybody listening to your broadcast that identifies themselves as pro -life, leave the pro -life movement, join the biblical movement of abolition.

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Dusty, I think, is the one who coined the phrase, Plexit, pro -life exit, get out of it.

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So that's a distinction, that's a very real distinction, and we're pressing for that in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. It's not been well received by the elitists and the gatekeepers, but they need to get in line with the rank and file of Southern Baptists or else.

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When it comes to Roe vs. Wade, I've heard disagreement over this, but is this actually a constitutional, legally binding liberty that women have, giving them the so -called freedom to murder their unborn children?

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No. No, it's not. We have a separation of powers in our constitutional republic.

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The Supreme Court does not write law. It renders decisions. It renders bad decisions.

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Dred Scott was a horrible decision. Roe vs. Wade, a horrible decision.

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And the people of this land are not obligated. I get so tired,

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Chris, of hearing people say, well, Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land. No, it's not the law of the land. Congress has never passed a law that allows for the slaughter of unborn children in New Orleans, and so we need to rip the mask off of that lie.

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And as we say in Oklahoma, Oklahoma's a wonderful place to live.

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When the day comes and we get our legislature to act like men and godly women and pass an abortion, an abolition bill, then we will say to, and our governor signs it, we will say to the

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Supreme Court, you can pound sand. You don't get to tell us who we kill, when, where, how, and why in our state.

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Yeah, Chris, you know, the Supreme Court has overturned itself over 300 times.

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It makes decisions that must be overturned. And besides that, you know, states have the right to stand up, and not only the right, the responsibility and the command, according to their constitutions, to stand up, to interpose on behalf of their citizens.

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When the federal magistrate would do something to harm their civil liberties or their life, you know, this is fifth -grade civics.

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We learned that the Supreme Court doesn't make laws. And so, we have been bowing to an opinion, which we would call, according to Isaiah 10, 1, and 2, an iniquitous decree that promoted and made way for the shedding of millions of babies' blood.

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We would call that an iniquitous decree, and it shouldn't be recognized as law.

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It isn't, but we're, in all these states now, writing pro -life regulation bills that actually legalize, they give legal cover to the murder of our pre -born neighbors,

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God's image bearers. So, bills like heartbeat bills, for example, there's a positive and a negative side to pro -life regulation laws, a heartbeat law.

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The positive side is, well, you can't murder children if the abortionist goes in and finds a heartbeat.

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But the negative side of that bill is, if he doesn't find a heartbeat, you can murder him.

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You can murder this baby. And God's word demands that we not be partial.

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Pro -life regulation laws are inherently bills of partiality.

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They have a positive side and a negative side. They say that some can be murdered. This is not establishing equal justice and equal protection as God demands in His world.

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This is not seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven. This is using unequal weights and measures.

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This is the reality with all these pro -life regulation laws.

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The Supreme Court didn't make a law and didn't codify into our

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Constitution that abortion was legal.

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What is actually codifying it into law is all these states writing pro -life regulation bills.

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That's where the legalization of abortion has been happening.

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We talk about ignoring Roe v.

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Wade or nullifying Roe v. Wade, and we talk about that with regard to abortion abolitionism just in the same way that some folks would talk about it with gun rights or immigration or marijuana.

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In Oklahoma, we have ignored the Fed on marijuana.

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It's a Schedule I drug, and in Oklahoma, we have legalized it for medical purposes.

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The reality is, in Oklahoma, we have a supermajority pro -life legislature, and we can pass any pro -life bill we want.

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We can even pass a law that says we are going to ignore the

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Fed on marijuana, but they won't go in and pass an abolition bill that ignores

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Roe v. Wade and challenges them like they have challenged them on marijuana.

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In essence, every time we see a green cross when we're driving down the road and there are pot shops everywhere in our state, we're saying that our legislators in some way love marijuana more than they do the pre -born babies in our state.

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And it should be interesting to our listeners to know that—and this is not a matter of opinion—the real

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Roe, the real woman who launched the

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Roe v. Wade decision, Norma McCorvey, later admitted that it was all a lie and she is pro -life.

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I don't know if she is still with us. Perhaps you guys know, but I just thought that that might be an interesting bit of fact for our listeners to know.

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She did pass away fairly recently, and not only what you just said about Norma McCorvey, but the whole case was built upon a lie.

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It was propagated upon a lie. Roe v. Wade has come straight out of the pit of hell. It needs to be sent back to hell where it came from.

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Our pro -life friends like to tell us that our abolition position, if successful, will undo all the gains they have made.

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And yet in Oklahoma, as Dusty pointed out, a super -majority, pro -life,

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Republican, conservative legislature will pass law after law after law every session.

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They high -fived themselves, they slapped themselves on the back with all these victories, and yet abortion is on the rise in the state of Oklahoma.

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And so 48 years of pro -life legislation has only lulled us into a stupor of death.

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And I say it's time for us to take a different path, take a biblical path.

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Trust the Lord when he says, him who honors me, I will honor. He who despises me, I will esteem lightly.

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I think we're on the flip side of that right now, Chris. Our nation is. I believe the Southern Baptist Convention is.

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We have despised God. We've looked at unequal weights and measures. We've looked at pragmatic approaches, and God is not honoring that.

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He's not blessing that. But I really believe that he will bless a group of people who will stand and say, no more, no more.

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We call upon the federal government to abolish abortion immediately, without exception or compromise.

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If the federal government will not hear, we call upon our state legislatures to do that. And once that is enacted, and all it's going to take is one state to finally get it right, dig its heels in, the governor sign it, as one of our good friends in this movement likes to say, what's the

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Supreme Court going to do if a state passes an abolition bill? Are they going to send their army?

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The Supreme Court doesn't have an army. And so it's going to be a crisis when it comes, but it will finally set things right.

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And when other states see that it's possible to protect your citizens from the devilish grip of the

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Supreme Court, the dominoes are going to start falling. I had a note the other day from a young man in the aftermath of the

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Southern Baptist Convention who said, I did not even know abolition was a possibility until I heard

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Bill Askell speak at the convention. Okay, we have to go to our first break right now.

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And so please, if you have a question for our guests today, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, we are discussing something very important today in regard to the prevention of the murder of unborn children or infanticide.

40:53

We are discussing the Southern Baptist Abortion Abolition Resolution with my guests who are the co -author of that resolution,

41:01

Bill Askell, Senior Pastor at Bethel Baptist Church in Owasso, Oklahoma, and Dusty Devers, Pastor at Grace Community Church of Elgin, Oklahoma.

41:13

If you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

41:21

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

41:27

And we have a first time questioner, Cody from Bowie, Texas.

41:35

What can a layman or elder do in regards to the recent plagiarism issues that have come to light in the

41:44

Southern Baptist Convention to hold the new president accountable or call for his resignation from the

41:50

Southern Baptist Convention presidency or ministry altogether? Are there any standards in the

41:56

Southern Baptist Convention regarding plagiarism, considering it appears J .D. Greer is now guilty of it also?

42:03

Obviously, this is going to be something that requires a little bit of explanation. So, Dusty, if you could give a little background on that, because the issue of plagiarism is something we haven't addressed yet, but we did address it with Josh Bice the last time he was on.

42:25

Yeah, I hate to get too far off the field of our topic on abortion and abolition, but just briefly

42:32

I would say, in catching up, it appears that, well, not appears, it's been proven that Ed Litton, the recently elected president of the

42:45

Southern Baptist Convention, plagiarized J .D. Greer, at least, in several of his

42:53

Roman series sermons. And when it was brought to his attention, and it was exposed, he pulled down over 140 sermons from his website, and there's been a lot of comparative videos made between words that he directly,

43:15

I mean, he could say plagiarized from J .D. Greer. I'm sure that there will be more evidence come out as people have the time to mine the resources.

43:24

You know, I went to seminary at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. If I would have plagiarized in any of my papers, at the least,

43:34

I would have failed that particular assignment and may have been kicked out of seminary for theft of intellectual property, and for, really, it's a character qualification issue.

43:46

I wouldn't be qualified to, according to the qualifications of pastoring 1

43:52

Timothy 3 and Titus 1, if I was stealing other people's intellectual property and not making reference to them, at least in some way to where I acquired it.

44:05

You know, our blackboard system, where we had to turn in our papers, was used particularly because it could scour all kinds of journals and other resources and Google Books and otherwise to check for plagiarism, and it appears that our president of the

44:27

SBC is now doing this, and there are so many people who are trying to support or just lessen the impact of what that is.

44:38

I think the heart of a pastor is to shepherd the flock of God that's before him, knowing that we have to give an account for the kind of watch care we give over those particular sheep.

44:50

You can't say that you're faithfully doing that. So, if I was in our church, we were talking about how to respond with an

45:05

SBC that I think is clearly morally compromised since we haven't already spoken out on these issues, and our academic elites and the heads of our seminaries and our entities have not clearly spoken out on the things that they wouldn't even allow in their classrooms, and now they're allowing for, in some ways, at least tacitly from our

45:27

SBC president. By the way, Brother Askell, if you could make sure that you mute yourself every time you're not speaking, because there's still a lot of feedback.

45:38

I surely will. But I will ask you the follow -up question from our listener

45:45

Cody in Bowie, Texas. Why is the question never asked in the

45:54

Southern Baptist Convention, are women who have abortions guilty of murder?

46:00

That seems to be the issue in the Roman Catholic Church as well, and I would argue is the reason the pro -life movement has failed at abolition.

46:08

What do you think the response would be from the Southern Baptist Convention?

46:14

And he has a bunch of other things that he's asking. I'll let you answer that first, Bill Askell. Okay, that's an excellent question.

46:22

Because Southern Baptist leadership has taught the rank -and -file membership of the

46:27

Southern Baptist Convention to emote on this issue and not reason biblically.

46:34

It sounds harsh to say that a woman who has had an abortion is complicit in murder, and yet that is a very redemptive thing to say, because if she is guilty of breaking the

46:45

Sixth Commandment, there is a gospel that can be applied to that. When she repents, she can be forgiven.

46:52

And so it's wrongheaded thinking to suggest that there are two victims in an abortion.

46:58

I would encourage anyone to go to the website notavictim .com and watch the videos there of women who are knowingly going into abortion clinics, and they are mocking, they are speaking vile speech, they are promising to do it again, they know very well what they're doing.

47:16

The best remedy for this is to teach women that abortion is murder, and if they participate in that willingly, in other words, if they're not forced by a sex trafficker or by an incestuous relative, if they willingly participate in this, they have participated in the murder of their child.

47:36

They need to repent of that and seek forgiveness. It's just one more evidence,

47:43

Chris, of the clash between the pragmatic thinking of the pro -life industry and the principled thinking of abolitionists.

47:53

Now, in regard to this, I'm still not 100 % clear on the acceptance of your resolution by the

48:04

Southern Baptist Convention. You seem to be pleased with the vote earlier, but has the

48:11

Southern Baptist Convention accepted in its fullness the resolution which would make it clear, if I'm not mistaken, that women who commit or who have abortions are guilty of murder and need to be held accountable?

48:29

Is that something that the Southern Baptist Convention is willing to echo? And perhaps

48:34

Dusty will have you answer that. Well, I believe that the messengers recognize the consistency of what

48:44

God's Word says regarding murder, and if you have committed a murder, then you would be guilty and be called a murderer, much like if you were liars.

48:59

I think the messengers are pretty clear on that. I think they are really approaching

49:08

God's Word and seeking to be faithful there. Now, whenever it comes to – we've had a few articles, a couple articles from academics around the

49:21

Southern Baptist Convention, some professors and representatives of the

49:26

Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission, the ERLC of the Southern Baptist Convention, who have argued that women are not murderers, but they're victims.

49:41

One of the members of the resolutions committee argued this from the platform herself, and she was very emotional in her argument, just appealing to women as victims of generational sin.

50:02

And that double -victim doctrine, where not only is the baby a victim, but the woman being a victim of abortion, from whether it's a culture or a society that's taught them that it's okay to murder your babies, or legislators who write laws that tell you when, where, and how you can murder children up to a certain age, or if they have

50:33

Down syndrome, you can't kill them, but if they don't have Down syndrome, you can kill them. The double -victim doctrine, which the

50:43

Southern Baptist Convention has historically maintained, and the pro -life industry has maintained, is duplicitous, it's anti -scripture, it's anti -equal justice for all life, and I think that what you saw was a distinction between what the messengers are saying and reading their

51:07

Bibles, and what our elites are saying. And I think those have been coming out more clearly over these days and the interactions that we've had, and I think it would be a great thing if we could have a public debate over this matter, with some of these academics that are representing various entities of the

51:36

Southern Baptist Convention, and some abortion abolitionists. I think that would be a really helpful, healthy direction to go for our convention.

51:49

We are confident that whenever we put

51:55

God's word out into the public, and we don't tamper with it, we make open statements of the truth, and we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God, as Paul talks about in 2

52:11

Corinthians 4, that God will do His good work of renewing minds and changing hearts through His word, and through the

52:21

Gospel. It won't be veiled. We think that in a lot of ways the pro -life industry is veiling these things, and we want to make open statements of the truth, and so let's have a public debate, or a discussion over this.

52:33

Okay, we have to get to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us, folks. The midway break, as always, is a bit longer than the other breaks, so we will be right back after these messages, and don't go away.

52:49

The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town.

52:55

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend, Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia, once again for the

53:05

G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

53:12

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

53:22

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

53:28

For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

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September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Hail the power of Jesus' name.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

55:57

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

56:18

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and always.

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Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

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While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people in the right direction. I invite people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at IronSharpensIronRadio .com

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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01:08:18

First of all, I want to thank all of you who have been letting me know that you are continuing to pray for my oldest brother

01:08:27

John 76 years old, who has cancer, critical stage emphysema, and an inoperable aneurysm

01:08:38

My brother John has been rescued from the brink of death by our Lord several times during his bouts with these illnesses and he was unconscious for five days a couple of weeks ago and I thank

01:08:57

God that he revived my brother, brought him back to consciousness and heard the gospel presented to him on at least four occasions during visits from my dear friend

01:09:09

Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas which is actually the town where the hospital is, where my brother was a patient and nearby where my brother lives

01:09:24

He has been transferred now to a rehabilitation facility and his wife and he are now in serious contemplation over a skilled nursing facility where he will be transferred after he leaves the rehab facility

01:09:45

Please pray for him, not only physically, that God would do a physical miracle in healing him but infinitely more important, that he gives crystal clear evidence that my brother has truly embraced the gospel and his 100 % reliance on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ It is uncertain at this point whether my brother is truly trusting in Christ and obviously it would be an enormous blessing and act of mercy of God upon me if I am given that full assurance that my brother has come to a true saving faith of Christ So please keep praying for my brother

01:10:26

John Pray for my brother Bob also, who I just informed you recently had a cancerous tumor removed from his bladder

01:10:35

It seems to have been successfully removed in its entirety

01:10:42

But please continue to pray for him My brother Bob is a believer by the way, thanks be to the Lord So continue to pray for him as well

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests

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Bill Askel and Dusty Devers That's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence

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And by the way, Cody in Bowie, Texas Please make sure we have your full mailing address

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And Bill Askel, if you could mute yourself We're getting your feedback Please, Cody, give us your full mailing address so that we can have

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Bibles and books to our listeners when they win them So to get a summary of what we've been discussing or at least an essential element of what we've been discussing

01:16:47

Let me start with Dusty You're saying that basically those in the, under the umbrella most of those anyway under the umbrella of what has become known as the pro -life movement and perhaps even in the

01:17:07

Southern Baptist Convention are taking a pragmatic approach maybe actually be with good intentions because they do not believe abortion will ever be abolished in this country if incremental steps are not taken if too much is demanded immediately these folks, well intentioned fear that no progress will be made if we are making public demands that women who have their children murdered are legally held accountable they fear, well this is just never going to go anywhere because of the prominence of feminism and leftism in our country

01:17:53

So that's basically, if I'm not mistaken what the opposition you are receiving is from those that on the one hand do believe that abortion is murder but on the other hand think that your efforts are misguided if you could respond to what

01:18:13

I just said Yeah, I think at the root of it it's that, what's the premise of primary authority and we think the premise of primary authority for the pro -life industry is permission from the

01:18:30

Supreme Court of the United States and they've been operating as such for the last 48 years since Roe was passed in 1973 we on the other hand say the premise of primary authority in this world is

01:18:45

God's word and Jesus is king over all the universe and he is putting all things under his feet through the gospels and through the churches spreading the gospel and so our strategy for dealing with the great societal evil of murdering pre -born children little image bearers in our most vulnerable place is a strategy that must endure from generation to generation that is worthy of our king it's a strategy that our king

01:19:33

Jesus would approve of and implement and that we don't want to waste our lives on worldly sub -Christian strategies we are to fight

01:19:43

God's battles with the weapons that he has put into our hands and we leave the success up to him so unfortunately the battle that the pro -life industry has been waging is a worldly pragmatism that submits to the

01:20:04

Supreme Court and not recognizing appropriately the

01:20:09

Supreme Court is to submit to the highest throne in all existence and that is the throne of God so that's all we're saying we want to not just set up a better worldly kingdom and have legislators who form a little better worldly strategies we are not trying to set up a better earthly government we are seeking first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added unto us we recognize that there is a sphere of the church and her jurisdiction and authority and there is a sphere of governing authorities that God has placed but they still have to submit to their god and king and that's not what the pro -life industry has been doing whether well intended or not it's time to repent and leave the pro -life movement like all of us have join us in repenting and obeying our king

01:21:16

Jesus and Bill Askell just to further clarify from what

01:21:27

I have gathered from our conversation so far you were both saying that at the recent

01:21:34

Southern Baptist Convention meeting your resolution was well received but if I'm not mistaken it has not been officially adopted as a resolution of the

01:21:45

Southern Baptist Confession, am I right? No, it has been adopted as a resolution it's in the record books the book of reports that will come out next year will have our resolution as having been formally adopted by the convention what you have to understand

01:22:02

Chris is there is a distinction between a resolution adopted at a convention and a motion a business motion that might instruct one of our entities or agencies to do something or that the board of trustees of those respective agencies may take up for action so it is a position taken at the 2021

01:22:23

Southern Baptist Convention, it has been adopted it's a resolution of record in fact the nature of resolutions is such

01:22:30

Tom Askell at this year's convention tried to rescind and overturn Resolution 9 from Birmingham and was denied the opportunity because a resolution is adopted at a convention and it stands as a record of that convention and it's irrevocable so I would like to tag on to what

01:22:51

Dusty said Dusty called for a debate a while ago and I would like to call upon Denny Burke and Andrew Walker who are some of the chief voices of the response to the academics out there who are saying that our resolution is nonsense it's woefully flawed they've made ad hominem arguments accusing us of being misogynist suggesting that we want to take up arms against the government all sorts of ridiculous accusations our resolution was loaded with scriptural references anchored and grounded in scripture their response had one scriptural reference that basically proved our point

01:23:32

I think a debate is in order if they really believe that we are a danger to the Southern Baptist Convention if they love us they ought to rescue us from our error if they don't love us but they love the convention they ought to be willing to rescue the convention from our error and I wouldn't understand for the life of me why people who are committed to being pro -life would not debate abolitionists on this topic the rank and file of Southern Baptists want abortion abolished immediately without exception or compromise these academics in the

01:24:06

SBC have gone so far as to say that the messengers didn't understand what they were voting on I will remind you our resolution was the only one passed out in the streets our resolution was the only one distributed before the convention no one got to see any resolution until it was printed

01:24:24

Tuesday morning there was even resolution calling for the immediate ceasing and desisting of the genocide of the

01:24:33

Uyghurs our convention that doesn't want to see won't go on record as saying they want abortion abolished immediately went on record as saying they wanted the genocide of the

01:24:44

Uyghurs in communist China to be stopped immediately the irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife yes for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with who the

01:24:55

Uyghurs are they are a Muslim sect in China if you could

01:25:01

Dusty Bill just mentioned resolution 9 if you could familiarize our listeners with that resolution again this is the resolution that Tom Askell, Bill's brother is attempting to overturn if you could familiarize us for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that resolution 9 was passed in the 2019 annual meeting and it was affirming the use of critical race theory and intersectionality as analytical tools to help us read the

01:25:43

Bible we hold that they are godless ideologies that reject

01:25:49

God's word and would lead to really the destruction of society society submitting to the

01:25:58

Lordship of Christ so can I just shift back to something that Bill brought up right now

01:26:07

Andrew Walker and Denny Burke as we speak are debating us on Twitter but they won't come and have a public debate with us and that's what we're up for we'd like to have a public discussion and have a a winsome and brotherly dialogue with them in front of all who would be willing to listen it's high time that our times and culture would have a debate like the abolitionists of slavery had a debate the problem here is that this is nothing new there were regulationists during the slavery abolition days they wanted to put regulations on the

01:27:01

West India Slave Company and clean up the ships or do certain things to make slavery more palatable to people and they were the regulationists or what you could call the gradual abolitionists and then there were the immediate abolitionists and history has told the story especially of the immediate abolitionists the people who are recognized as not fighting for equal justice and equal protection for our

01:27:43

African American brothers and sisters are the ones who wanted to regulate the atrocities of chattel slavery let's be consistent and not regulate any longer the atrocities of the abortion holocaust in our nation as God commands should be immediate abolitionists let me read you something that Emily Hayrick wrote in her 1824 pamphlet immediate not gradual abolition and I think it applies to something that's happening in the

01:28:23

SBC with our elites right now even on twitter as they're responding but they won't as of yet won't agree to a public debate here's what

01:28:32

Emily Hayrick said in 1824 the enemies of slavery have hitherto ruined the abolitionist cause by the senseless cry of gradual emancipation it is marvelous that the wise and the good should have suffered themselves to have been imposed upon by this wily artifice of the slaveholder for with him must the project of gradual emancipation have first originated the slaveholder very well knew very well that his prey would be secure so long as the abolitionist could be cajoled into a demand for gradual instead of immediate abolition the slaveholder knew very well that the contemplation of a gradual emancipation would beget a gradual indifference to emancipation itself he knew very well that even the wise and the good may by habit and familiarity be brought to endure and tolerate almost anything this is a playbook for what's happening in our day we've seen it before history is repeating itself we should repent of participating in gradual regulatory abortion industry we need to repent of it and turn from that and become immediate abolitionist one last thing just like the west india slave trade was regulated and the western india company became a monopoly so to speak that's what

01:30:21

Planned Parenthood is doing now with abortion regulations they love regulations because it shuts out some of the independents they can thrive in a regulatory environment and even grow larger and larger as they are starting mega murder mills in states around our nation while so many pro -life regulation bills that say when where and how you can murder your children are being passed excellent we have a listener we have a listener actually a faithful long time listener and generous financial supporter of this program with a question

01:31:10

Grady from Asheboro North Carolina greetings brothers I know that our brother

01:31:16

Jeff Durbin and his abolition of abortion ministry and abortion now has went to several states

01:31:23

Oklahoma being one of them he's helped state representatives with bills for the abolition of abortion did you get any input from him on your resolution and we could start with Tom I'm sorry with Bill Askell thank you yes we did

01:31:40

Jeff was very helpful as Dusty mentioned at the outset of the show we drew this resolution was more than a year in the works our original intention was to submit it to Orlando the convention in Orlando which did not happen and Jeff Durbin was a key source of input because Jeff has been a faithful brother he's doing a wonderful work at Apologia we love him and thank the

01:32:05

Lord for him in fact your listener may not know that Jeff and some of his men actually came to Nashville they were in Nashville with us he was actually a guest of mine at the

01:32:16

Southern Baptist Convention so we're grateful for him but he was a great source of input great we have a question from Christopher in Suffolk County Long Island New York and Christopher asks were the lines of division that reflected those that were in supportive of your resolution in full and those that are opposed to holding women accountable reflective also of the lines drawn between Calvinists and Armenians and the reason why

01:32:54

I'm asking that is that Armenians or those who are not reformed or Calvinistic tend to be more pragmatic about their approach to evangelism as well they will customize and soften their messages to make them more appealing to those who are lost and also the way that they worship is very often customized to be more appealing to the lost as creating a greater lure for the lost to visit their churches this pragmatic approach seems to be born out of fear that more traditional approaches and more biblical approaches to evangelism and worship will keep the lost out rather than leaving these issues up to the sovereignty of God and I was just wondering if there was a direct connection to the abortion issue as well

01:33:55

I'll take that I don't see that in our Southern Baptist circles I think it's tied more to a pragmatism versus a principled approach and I would kick into this

01:34:06

I think of course you've got a feminist element that tends to be very emotional on this and doesn't reason biblically with it and then you've got what

01:34:17

I would call soft males who tend to fall in line with that element but primarily there's

01:34:23

Armenians and Calvinists lined up together in support of abolition of abortion in the

01:34:30

Southern Baptist convention that's not been a theological distinction that we have seen so much and Brother Dusty I have said this a number of times in this program,

01:34:44

I am fully convinced that those who are standing firm on wanting abortion abolished should insist whether it's in the secular realm or even in a realm such as the

01:35:03

Southern Baptist convention meeting that a film be viewed by all present of a baby being murdered in the womb the reason

01:35:16

I say that is that that seems to have changed the opinions of those globally after World War II there was skepticism globally even after World War II initially about the

01:35:33

Holocaust and then when people globally viewed the newsreels of the concentration camps that were liberated when they saw what had happened to these people seeing these skeletal living victims and also the massive graves of those that were being graves that were being filled with cranes and dump trucks filling them with the corpses of the victims people were finally convinced at least most sane people were finally convinced that this indeed did occur and it was nothing less than a satanic horrific blight upon the face of the earth what is your opinion about this showing a film of this to jolt people back into the reality of exactly what we are talking about good luck showing one of those at a secular humanist indoctrination camp the government school we call them public schools too

01:36:39

I don't think you'll ever get one of those shown there that's why we have to have churches and brothers and sisters going regularly to abortion mills and showing graphic images because our culture is doing everything they can to hide those realities that are happening in front of us and just like what happened at the

01:36:59

Nuremberg trials and why the concentration camps are open and touring to this day we have to be jolted with the reality of the heinous wickedness that's in the heart of man and if that's hidden from our eyes because we don't have a church that is influencing the culture then we will default to this excuse like I didn't know but God is clear in his word in Proverbs 24 he says in verse 11 and 12 it says rescue those who are being taken away to death hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter in verse 12 if you say behold we did not know this does not he who weighs the heart perceive it does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it and will he not repay man according to his work we really at the end of the day don't have an excuse because God has placed his law in our hearts and he's written his law in our hearts and he's given us a conscience that works according to it and we don't have an excuse before the king of the universe and this is we agree with you

01:38:26

Chris that this needs to be brought out more and more the truth of abortion needs to be brought right before our eyes and not hidden because this is the most atrocious holocaust we've ever faced ten times plus greater than Hitler's holocaust well going back though to a part of my question how about making sure that everyone at the southern baptist convention meetings together watches something like this and if someone were to say oh we are all unanimously opposed to abortion that's well obviously that's not good enough because people are still pushing and wanting to preserve the incremental understanding maybe they just need to be reminded via shock value

01:39:26

I think that would be great if we could get a president at the southern baptist convention who would maybe plagiarize these abortion videos and put them in front of everybody so they could see them or if we had founders ministries would show one of their videos next year at their conference or the conservative baptist network would show a video and show why this is such a nightmarish wickedness that's in our land

01:40:00

God deals with that in Leviticus 20 and he says if any of you would give your children over to Moloch that person has to be stoned and if they're not stoned then the people of the land if they turn their faces from it and don't stone that man then they need to have the same punishment

01:40:20

I'm not advocating for that now but I am saying it just shows how much

01:40:26

God hates the sacrificing of our children to Moloch if we want to start a campaign to maybe show one of those graphic videos that would be great this is something we do at abortion mills just on that note my really close brother

01:40:46

Brett Baggett and I are producing a documentary called

01:40:53

A Storm Comes Rolling Down the Plains and it's about the abolition of abortion movement that began here in Oklahoma and where it's headed there's also another good documentary called

01:41:07

Babies Are Murdered Here by John Speed that would be worth watching for sure yes and Marcus Pittman was involved in that as well yep that's right you may be both surprised or maybe you won't be but years ago back in the 90's when

01:41:25

Pat Buchanan was running for president with the reform party he was probably the most outspoken proponent of ending abortion and yet when

01:41:43

I called during a radio interview when he was a guest I asked him the very thing about we should require the viewing of an abortion before any election cycle he said,

01:41:57

I was shocked, he said oh we wouldn't want to do that I said, why on earth not and he said, that would be like televising an execution and I said, that's my point but anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now and anybody who wants to ask a question please send it in now we'll be right back after these messages so don't go away

01:42:33

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01:53:38

Welcome back If you could, Dusty Devers conclude the program with two minutes of uninterrupted summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners and after you're finished we'll have

01:53:53

Bill Askle do the same Okay, Chris, thank you so much for your time There's just a huge by God's grace a huge distinction going on in our country right now and it's growing more and more to a head and nobody can stop it because it's the work of the

01:54:15

Spirit of God to bring about justice the way God would demand for it to be done and this isn't a these are all good works in keeping with repentance.

01:54:27

They are good fruits in bringing about equal justice for our pre -born neighbors

01:54:32

You know, we call ourselves Great Commission Baptists and that's true. The Great Commission tells us to go and make disciples

01:54:41

The second part of that Great Commission Jesus says all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me so go and make disciples.

01:54:49

Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and he says teach them to obey everything that I have commanded and part of what he commands is that we be

01:55:00

Great Commandment Baptists as well where we love our pre -born neighbors as ourselves

01:55:05

You know that in numerous states Oklahoma, Texas, Indiana, Idaho, Washington Alaska, Missouri, Arizona, Maryland, South Carolina and North Carolina there have been abolition bills put forward and in every one of those states it's not the pro -abortion industry that's killing these bills.

01:55:28

It's the pro -life industry that's killing these bills and laws to murder babies are being written at state capitals and we're seeing them bear fruit on the ground of murdered babies 3 ,000 a day in the

01:55:44

United States Here's what R .C. Sproul said When the government is no longer acting justly and no longer protecting life or sanctioning abortion for example then it is the task of the church to be the prophetic voice to call the state to task and tell the state to repent and do what

01:56:04

God commands it to do That's what we're doing and we're saying that the legislator is downstream from the culture and culture is downstream from the church and the church is downstream from pulpits so pastors get on board repent with us and come to the consistent position of abolition as God's word demands

01:56:29

And Bill we have about a minute left Alright I'll just make this quick go to erlc .com

01:56:40

There's an article on there right now the road to row 50 In other words 50th anniversary of row coming up in 2023

01:56:47

There's no intention on the part of the E .L .C. to see abortion abolished between now and then

01:56:52

Minnie Burke and Andrew Walker who write for the commission of Biblical Council of Manhood and Womanhood teach at 7th

01:57:00

Seminary are all over this I'm not a prophet but the son of a prophet There's going to be a conference at row 50

01:57:08

These guys are going to come out against us Watch for them to be writing books The pro -life industry makes way too much money for abortion to be abolished

01:57:18

We're calling on people to leave the pro -life movement Join us in the abolition movement

01:57:23

Abortion will be abolished it's just a matter of time God willing it will happen in Oklahoma or one of the states where Christians rise up and say we've had enough

01:57:35

And if anybody wants more information about the resolution we've been discussing go to southernbaptistsabolishingabortion .com

01:57:45

southernbaptistsabolishingabortion .com Thank you brethren for being such excellent guests Thanks to everyone who listened