James Renihan Interview

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, ministry. My name's

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Mike Abendroth, and as you know, daily radio show Mondays, it's a message that I have preached here at Bethlehem Bible Church.

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We're in the Book of Ecclesiastes now. Tuesdays, I talk to my associate pastor about things in the church, ecclesiological issues,

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Thursdays and Fridays, more positive instruction about law of gospel, about eschatology, could be all kinds of things.

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But I particularly like Wednesday shows because I interview other pastors, theologians, authors, and it's really neat to see what the

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Lord is doing in their life, where he's placed them. And so today, it is Wednesday in No Compromise world, and so I have

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Dr. James Renahan on No Compromise Radio. Jim, welcome to the show. Thank you,

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Mike. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Jim, I think you know the story, but the first time we ever met, and I'll make it fast,

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I moved to New England 25 years ago, and of course, you were born here in Worcester.

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I'm standing in line at a U -Haul rider truck thing, and the guy is being very aggressive with me.

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I didn't understand New Englanders then. I almost lost my temper, and many times, sadly, I do get frustrated, but I didn't, and I just did what he said.

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And then you were two people behind me in line, and you said, are you Mike Ebendroth, the new pastor here in town?

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And I was so happy, not just to meet you, but that I didn't blow my testimony the first day in New England.

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Oh, that's hilarious. I do remember that, though. So Jim, how about this?

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Would you tell us about your background here in New England, where you pastored New England, and then what got you to California, and eventually we'll get to the

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Texas Park. Yeah, I was, as you say, born in Worcester, grew up there, was involved in a church in the city, converted at about age 15, married a girl who had been brought up in that church.

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The men in the church advised me to go to seminary. They thought that I had the gift, so I did, through a long process, ended up as a pastor on the

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North Shore of Boston. And at the same time, through influence of some seminary professors, it was suggested that I pursue a doctoral degree, so I went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, studied under Tom Nettles, completed my degree in the mid -90s, came back to Worcester, we planted a church, it was growing,

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I thought that's where I would live for the rest of my life. And then an opportunity came, I was asked to begin a program called the

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Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary in Southern California, so 1998, not long after you and I met, we moved out there to California, we were there for 20 years, had a great relationship with the folks at Westminster, really thankful for that.

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Jim, you're the president now of IRBS, and you're in Texas, you've moved there in your freestanding, if you will.

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Has anything changed from the days of being on the campus of Westminster Escondido to where you are now, in terms of programs offered, professors, what's the difference?

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Is it just more than location? Well, I would say nothing theological has changed.

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But when we were at Westminster, we were just an institute. We offered five classes, they were for 17 credit hours, and they applied to the

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Westminster degree. And we had, I think, 40 or so graduates while I was there, it was very encouraging.

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But about, we're in 2022 now, so probably six or seven years ago, people began to ask the question, should we advance things to our own standalone seminary?

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And after a lot of consultation with many, many people, it was decided that we would do that. So we came here to Mansfield, Texas, to develop a full seminary program.

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So we have a Master of Divinity, we have a Master of Arts and Religion, we have a certificate program, which is for men who are in pastoral ministry but would like some supplements to what they've had before.

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We have a diploma program, which is essentially the same as the Master of Divinity, but it's for men who don't have an undergraduate degree and can't join a typical master's program.

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And it really has been wonderful. We just recently changed our name. We were the

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Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies in California. When we moved here, we had a name, IRBS Theological Seminary, which people were getting wrong all the time, and it was a mouthful.

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So we just changed to International Reformed Baptist Seminary, because we've developed some really exciting relationships with several international entities.

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Jim, when I heard the story of how that happened on your podcast—and by the way, I want to plug the podcast,

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Theology in Particular, I don't listen to many podcasts, but I do listen to that every week, and I think you're in a series now on the

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Doctrines of Grace, and you know, the one that I maybe like the most,

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Jim—and I may be sorry to say this, but I know the Doctrines of Grace—I love the little insight with you and your son kind of traveling and walking around as pedestrians in London.

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That was such a good show, so good job. Well, thanks very much. That was enjoyable. I need a little map, though.

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I need you to be my guide when I go there. Oh, I'd be glad to. So, you've moved, and you have some wonderful professors.

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Tell us about some of your professors. Some of our folks will probably know their names. Yeah, I'm really pleased with our faculty.

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I think they're outstanding. We have 18 men who teach courses. We have several men that we call core professors, and they're basically department heads.

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Rich Barcelos does exegetical theology, Chuck Rennie does systematic theology,

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Fred Malone does pastoral theology, and then I have church history. And then among the others who teach, of course,

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James Dolezal teaches several courses in systematic theology, Ryan Davidson handles our counseling classes,

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Jason Montgomery does almost all of the church history classes—I do a couple—Ken

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Poles does a course on worship, I have a friend who is a

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PhD in a discipline called hydrogeomorphology, which is the study of how water interacts with land.

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He's a well -known, internationally known scholar in his field, teaches at a university in another country.

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He teaches a course for us called Apologetics in Pastoral Ministry, in which he talks about matters like evolution and the

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Flood, and things that would be appropriate for pastors to know in their churches today.

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We... How about your son? Do you know your son? Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. My son Sam, yeah.

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He will be here, actually, in September, he teaches covenant theology for us. We have more men, but their names aren't coming to mind right now.

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That's okay, I didn't want to put you on your spot. I really wanted to have you say Rich Barcello, so I could say, hmm, because that's his typical response, and I wanted to talk to you about the joy of having your son, not just to have a son, not just to have a son who's born again, but a son who's in ministry and then alongside of you.

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I have a son, Luke, he's 25, he's a gifted preacher, will start at Westminster Escondido this fall, so I understand a little bit about the joy, but I wanted to give you an opportunity,

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Jim, just to express your thanks to the Lord and how wonderful it must be to have a young man like Sam as your son.

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Well, actually, I have three sons, and two of them are pastors. Micah is the older, he's the middle son, but he's older than Sam, and he's a pastor in Brunswick, Maine, at Grace Reform Baptist up there, and the

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Lord has blessed that ministry and I'm really thankful for that. Sam is in La Mirada, California.

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Micah and Sam together went through our program at Westminster. They graduated on the same day.

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It was great to have them in class, and it's great to have them as ministerial colleagues.

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Sam and I will be doing a conference together, actually. It'll be the second one that we've done, but in September, he's coming here to Texas, and we're doing a conference together on the decrees of God.

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Wonderful. Were they born here in Worcester, or where were they born? Micah was born in Worcester.

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Sam was born in Newburyport, Mass. Okay, isn't Newburyport, wasn't, isn't

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George Whitefield buried up there, at Presbyterian Church? Yes, he is. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, I was listening to Sam, I think he was just in Phoenix or something with you all and listened to his message on impassibility and him encouraged by Sam, and I just picked up for summer reading his,

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I don't know what it's called, I think it's something in Latin about the descendant clause and Christ descending to hell.

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Yeah, crux mors in feri. What's that even mean? I don't even know. Well, crux is cross, mors is death, and in feri is the grave.

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Oh, okay. Wonderful. I know what duplex grati is, but I don't know. Jim, I think your background is maybe fairly typical in terms of evangelical experience.

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Were you in fact coming out of a dispensational Arminian background, and if so, what did the

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Lord use to move you to more of a covenantal and Reformed paradigm? That's an interesting question.

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The church where I was converted there in Worcester was a typical evangelical New England church.

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You know, we used the four spiritual laws, I knew them by heart, but sometimes one of the pastors would stand up and say, okay, we're reading from such and such a text today, and if you have the right kind of Bible, it's on page such and such, and the right kind of Bible was a

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New Schofield reference Bible. So we knew the seven dispensations well, and that's everything that we knew about.

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Many of us, in the year that I graduated from high school, 1973, many of us went off to Christian college, and I went to a small school where I began to be introduced to some of the

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Banner of Truth books. Also, in the History of Western Civilization course, the professor was loosely

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Reformed, and when he got to the Reformation and talked about the five points of Calvinism and the sovereignty of God, I thought, well, that makes sense to me.

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If God is God, then that must be true. And so listening to Dr.

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Barton and then reading the Banner of Truth books and reading my Bible set me off on a pathway to understand these things, to grow in my commitment to what the

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Word of God teaches, which is, I believe, the Reformed faith. And so it's been a wonderful experience.

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Now, that's 40 years, almost 50 years of reading and thinking and coming to the conclusions that I'm at right now.

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It's interesting to me, Jim, when I think about evangelicalism here in New England in the 1600s and 1700s, very much five -point

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Calvinistic, covenantal, etc., and then all of a sudden feminism starts coming in.

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I remember Anne Douglas' doctoral dissertation at Harvard, The Feminization of American Culture, and they wanted less

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Calvinistic sermons, a kinder Jesus, so Sinian Jesus moved the cemeteries from adjacent to the church out into Sleepy Hollow Lane and all that.

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And now, I guess my point is, most evangelicals would be Arminian because that's just the lay of the land, it seems, and that's the speakers on radio.

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But there was a time back in New England where the majority were Calvinistic, were they not?

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Well, that's absolutely true. You know, in southern New England especially, and particularly among the

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Baptists, they were strongly Calvinistic in their commitments. Isaac Bacchus, who was down in the

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Plymouth area, Middleborough Mass, was a leading particular Baptist in the 18th century and had a great influence.

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There were a couple of preachers in southern New England, and I mean Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island, who are well -known for their commitment to the doctrines of grace.

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You know, the biggest beneficiary of the Great Awakening in the 18th century were the

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Baptists, and for the most part, apart from a small group in Rhode Island, they were clearly committed to the doctrines of grace.

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Now, when you go up into northern New England, the situation was different, because there were a lot of what were then called free

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Baptist churches up in the north. But in terms of probably southern New Hampshire and on down, certainly strong Calvinistic.

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And then, of course, you had earlier, you had the New England Puritans, who likewise were committed to the doctrines of grace and the fullness of the

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Reformed faith. Jim, you stayed for a long time in Escondido.

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There in the campus of Westminster, Escondido, and they would be, I guess they'd subscribe to the

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Three Forms of Unity, and then the Westminster Confession and Catechism, Shorter Catechism, maybe we call it

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Six Forms of Unity. How did you remain a Baptist, staying there for so long around those guys?

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Well, I didn't find it very difficult, to be honest with you. You know, they respected me.

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They showed me a lot of respect, every single one of them. No one ever tried to talk me out of my commitments.

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Someone once asked me, do you have discussions with the faculty in the faculty lounge? And my answer was, well, number one, there isn't a faculty lounge, and number two, no, we've never had a dispute.

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See, I went in there thinking I'm a guest in someone else's house, and there's a right way or a wrong way for a guest to behave when he goes into a house.

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So I wasn't there to tell them, to try to convert them to be Baptists, and I think that that helped them not to try to convert me.

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Of course, in the classroom, no holds were barred, and you did everything that you could to defend your view, but I'm thankful to God for those men, for their kindness and generosity and acceptance.

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It really was a demonstration of Christian love. Dr. Renahan, let's talk a little bit about training men for gospel ministry.

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Some people these days are self -called, and you can get ordination papers and licenses online, take a few tests online, and everything seemed to be settled.

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I know even back here in Worcester at Heritage, you had—I can't remember the acronym for it—but some type of pastoral training institute that you had.

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What was that called again? Yeah, it was called RBPTI, Reformed Baptist Pastoral Training Institute.

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Yeah, that's right. And I actually learned Hebrew there for my second time, because I forgot it in seminary.

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You brought in a professor to teach there, and so you've had that desire to not just proclaim the

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Word of God on Sunday morning, which is the most important thing, but then secondarily that goes along with it—2

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Timothy 2—training up other men. Tell our listeners a little bit about the importance of training men in the gospel ministry, and then it extends to having every person in the congregation wanting to learn more about who

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Jesus is. Yeah. You know, when I go to churches and this topic comes up, one of the statements that I make is that we have rightly—hear me say rightly—been concerned about the spread of the gospel around the world.

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I'm committed to missions, I'm committed to church planting, I believe in that absolutely. And I call that geographical expansion.

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We're committed to geographical expansion. But then I ask the people, or I suggest to them that we're not so well committed to generational expansion.

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And I ask the question, who will be the pastor for your grandchildren? And that has made them really begin to think oftentimes.

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Not only should we be concerned about the people who horizontally live on the earth with us right now, finding ways to reach them in their various languages, but we also need to think about what

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Paul says in 2 Timothy 1 and 2 about preparing for the future.

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And so I am committed with all my heart to seeing that men are well -trained, that they understand the scriptures in the original languages as best as they're able to acquire that, that they understand how to do careful exegesis, they understand what systematic theology is and how the various aspects of Christian doctrine fit together, that they understand church history and historical theology and the fact that we are not the first generation of Christians who have come to the

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Bible, been born again by the Spirit, brought to faith, but that there are 20 centuries before us of believers.

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And then to have experienced pastors training these men in preaching and in pastoral counseling and visitation and such,

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I really believe that that's necessary. That a person wouldn't go to a physician who is not well -trained, likewise we should not have pastors who are not well -trained.

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We're physicians of the soul, and it's necessary to be fully equipped in every possible way to minister to people, to reach the lost, and to bring

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Christians to maturity. Amen. By the way, you're an excellent person to interview, because you give an answer and then you stop, and then it's not my turn to ask a question, so good job.

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Thanks. All right, we don't have but about five more minutes, Dr. Renahan. I'd like to ask you a little bit about being confessional.

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On your website for RBS, you've got independent, confessional, and then

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Reformed. And let me read what you state on your website and then ask you a question.

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We subscribe to the three historic particular Baptist confessions, the First London Confession of 1644, 46, 51, the

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Second London Confession of 1677 and 89, and the Baptist Catechism of 1693 as faithful summaries of the

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Word of God. All instruction conforms to these standards. So here at Bethlehem Bible Church, our statement of faith is the

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London Baptist Confession, the second one, 1689. How would you—and

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I think Barcello said that, you know, there's no one on earth that knows more about the London Baptist Confessions than you, so I'm just going to assume that to be true, and even if it's not,

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I'll ask the question—tell us at the lay level, in a few minutes type of thing, what's the difference between the

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First London Confession and the Second, and then is the 44, 46, 51, are they revisions, are they additions, subtractions?

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What's the difference between the First and the Second? And then my second question is, what's the difference within those categories?

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Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah, the difference between the First and Second is not theological.

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They are in agreement with each other. I just published a book that's an exposition of the

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First London, published by Founders Press with the title, For the Vindication of the

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Truth, and I try to make the case in there that we ought to take at face value the language that they use to say among the churches that the confessions teach the same thing.

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So there's no difference theologically, but there is a difference in terms of expansiveness. The 1689

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Confession addresses many of the same theological issues, but it does so more robustly, and I think that part of the reason for that is that the authors of the

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First London Confession were laymen, well -trained. They were raised up in Puritan churches.

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They understood the scriptures from their ministers, but they were still laymen, where by the time you get to the 1670s, you have some men who are skilled and trained and have a higher level of expertise in their ability to express theological truth.

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So you get that more robust, that more profound sense of Christian theology from the

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Second London than from the First. Theology is the same. The expressions are better in the

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Second London. To take the second part of your question, yes, the three editions, 44, 46, and 51, are revisions of each other.

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Some changes, they reflect three different political circumstances. In 1644,

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Parliament was at war with the king. In 1646, it was very clear that Parliament was going to triumph.

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In 1651, you have the struggle to find a political methodology by which

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England could be governed, because the king has been executed two years before, and you're in the beginning of that process with Parliament and with Oliver Cromwell.

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So there are differences within the three versions, especially over those kinds of political matters.

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There are other differences as well, but that's especially acute. Okay, is it—have

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I heard something, Jim, about 1644 to 1689? Are there changes in the section that talks about the law of God?

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Well, 1644 doesn't say much about the law of God, but when you think through everything that's included in the

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First London Confession of Faith, you'll see that they're implying reference to the Ten Commandments throughout, where in 1677, the

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Second London, there's a more explicit statement about the law, but it's saying the same thing. Okay, because I think maybe

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I'm thinking of New Covenant theology, maybe their attraction to the 1644 is because there are—it's not as explicit on the law as the 1689 is.

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Yeah, I would just ask them to get hold of my exposition and read it and think through it.

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Well, I was going to ask you what you're writing, but you've already told us, so that works out well. Time goes by very quickly on these podcasts, and so,

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Jim Renahan, thank you for being on No Compromise Radio Ministry. I encourage the listeners to go to irbs, all one word, then seminary, irbsseminary .org,

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and there's a variety of different degree programs there. You can look at faculty, tuition, and other things, and I appreciate that the

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Lord would take somebody born in Worcester and is using them not only in California, but also

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Texas. Jim Renahan, thank you for being on No Compromise Radio, may the Lord bless you richly.

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Thank you very much, Mike, appreciate it a lot. No Compromise Radio, with Pastor Mike Abendroth, is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible -teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10 .15 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.