May 9, 2013

Wycliffe Bible Translators and Translating “Father” and “Son” in Muslim Contexts

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's six. Oh two nine, seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Well according to my new hoot suite installation here kung-fu guitar is Listening to the DL for the first time today. Welcome kung-fu guitar. I don't know. I just looked over there and Since tweet deck is committing harry-carry I went to hootsuite today and I've just got set up and kung-fu guitar says gonna listen to the DL for the first time.

So welcome to a first-time listener. I've been sitting behind this microphone all stinking day Ridiculous I and I I Want to start a campaign to abolish daylight savings time there is no reason for playing with clocks and once again, I had in my calendar That I was going to be doing the dividing line Starting now going to five o 'clock and then going straight into an interview on a station in Minneapolis and lo and behold I'm sitting there doing something.

I don't know I was doing rich comes running in. Um, you've got an interview in one minute. Yeah, and it was at 315 not 515 or whenever it was supposed to be. So just got done doing that and had a grand total of two and a half minutes before Starting this so here we are and I've already done line of fire with With Michael Brown today and right before that I mean back-to-back we did the pilgrim radio network.

So it has been a long day of talking so we will definitely open the phone lines at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I'm sure that There will be many people including Arrogant anemia canner and people like that.

They're gonna be calling in today, too. Because they just didn't have chance to their busy cell phone batteries were dead. Whatever On on Tuesday with the answers for all of that stuff, but then again, maybe you've heard some of the interviews today and you would like to ask some questions or dialogue on that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number as soon as I Walked through the door this morning.

I Was asked about something that I've only heard a little bit about and so other folks in channel were kind enough to Bring up some some URLs basically, I was being asked the question concerning the issue of Wycliffe Bible translators and the subject of rendering words like father and son in Translations that will be used in Islamic context now.

I had heard Obviously when this whole thing started I had heard that Wycliffe was trying to find ways around using these terms because of offense of Muslims and There was a rather strong response to that From many people including Christians living in Muslim lands recognizing that this is just a massive act of compromise and that that the problem is not with what The Bible teaches on these things.

The problem is with the Quran. The the problem is with the false Understanding of the author of the Quran of what father and son means in a New Testament. So you you have one person? 600 years later ignorant of the biblical meaning and context and teaching Especially of the New Testament and that then becomes predominant now.

We're supposed to change the proper translation of the Bible because of that misunderstanding. No you explain it. You explain it better than Ergen Kanner did that one won this guy that we listened to boy.

That was a faceplant moment, but you you explain it you you go. No, you don't seem to understand what we're talking about here and. And you know, I would think most Muslims would be shocked if we were willing to change the translation of the Bible.

Because there are things in the Quran that they have to explain. They have to explain what what it means to strike at necks and they have to explain What what it means for people to pay the jizya and feel themselves Humiliated and all the rest of these things and and but they would never dream that they should change the translation you just explain what it's what it's supposed to be saying and so I had heard, you know all the the brouhaha when it first happened and Then I thought and this is one of the problems in our RSS blog Facebook Twitter verse society you just you just get hit with so much stuff and You know, I just don't know that God designed us to have access to this much information.

I really don't I mean You just get was hit with so much stuff that I I cannot possibly keep track of of everything that that's going on these days but yeah, as it may I thought I saw a an article at some point.

That said something along the lines of of a well it was it was a denial on the part of Wycliffe I thought That this is in fact what they were doing. We're not doing this, you know, we we seek Accuracy and translation etc, etc.

I I don't know well yesterday on 5 a .m. Central Time. Is that Central Daylight Time or not? We don't know but yesterday Michael Clark posted an article on the gospel coalition blog panel seeks resolve son of God translation controversy.

Late last month the World Evangelical Alliance global review panel Presented a 33 page report with 10 recommendations for Wycliffe Global Alliance and SIL international concerning their process of translating divine familial terms.

Like father and son in Muslim context respond to several Bible translation controversies. Wycliffe and SIL requested last spring that the WEA reviewed their process of translating divine familial terms.

These controversies stem from the fact that Muslims often misunderstand the divine familial language found the New Testament. Believing that implies that God had sexual relations in order to beget Jesus.

Well, that's because That's what the Quran indicates. That's the problem this misunderstanding is found the Quran surah 5 1 16 17 1 11 1988 to 92 and leads Muslims to abhor the idea that Jesus is a son of God.

Therefore in an attempt to avoid Miscommunication some translations have avoided using the divine familial terms of father and son. The WA began forming an independent review panel last summer under the leadership of and it goes it goes on there.

The panels report provides a needed corrective Wycliffe SILs process of translating divine familial terms. However, some might contend that the correction did not go far enough. In recommendation 1 the panel argues that when the words father and son are Used to refer to God the Father and the Son of God.

These should quote always be translated with the most direct equivalent familial words. Within the given linguistic and cultural context of the recipients end quote. In other words the terms father and son should be retained in the translation.

The panel includes compelling biblical support retain the divine familial terms first. They include an exhaustive list of biblical examples that demonstrate that the words father and son are quote among the most common ways New Testament describes God and Jesus and quote second they argued the words father and son are among the most important ways New Testament expresses Jesus divinity in relationship with God and goes on there and then.

Mentioned some potential concerns. The panel states that the father might be rendered as heavenly father. God who is father or God? Who is the true father. The word son might be rendered as divine son eternal son or heavenly son?

The panel also notes the phrase son of God has varied nuances and therefore Depending the context could be rendered as the son belonging to God. The son who comes from God the son who drives from God.

Anointed son of God royal son of God divine royal son of God or even royal son who drives from God. It's gonna become a very very big book if you go there look the fact the matter is Muslims have been given a false understanding of what son of God means and we have to explain it.

God never intended the Bible to just sit out there. He wants us to preach it to people. That's the way the gospel is preached. You know, that's how we're supposed to do it. Preaching is not just staying there reading the Bible there needs to be application there needs to be interpretation and when you have a societal Misinterpretation.

Well, then you explain it. That'd be like coming up with a special Utah version of the Bible. Can you imagine that coming up with a special Utah version of the Bible? That that expands on all the monotheistic texts.

To make sure that Mormons get the idea that there's only one true and eternal God who did not once live on a planet. Can you imagine rendering every word God in that way? One true eternal God who never lived on a planet and you're just gonna do a Bible translation that way.

No, you know, you don't don't even go there and so I was hit with as soon as I walked in. I guess there was a pastor who had called in and wanted to know about us and they're the the World Evangelical Alliance report is linked from the Gospel Coalition blog and you can read it yourself and it's it's interesting and all that stuff, but it is a Fascinating thing that that is the one of the things that we're discussing that eight seven seven seven five three three four one I was just on a station in Minneapolis as I mentioned right before this and as soon as we started it was mentioned that the House in In Minnesota had just passed the profaning of marriage.

That the Senate was going to do so and then it was gonna be signed next week. And so Minnesota will become the twelfth state to profane marriage to spit in God's face. To say we will not have you as king over us and I am just remembered Reminded of the phrase God is not mocked and God sits in the heavens and laughs.

It is self Self-destructive it is part and parcel of the culture of death and I am NOT uttering hate speech, but you know, it's no parallel. It just struck me I was let's say I'm not uttering hate speech to tell my native state I'm I was born in Minneapolis my native state that you are Inviting the wrath of God upon your nation or your nation your your your your territories by profaning an Institution that he it is the first institution that he established amongst mankind and also as a parallel struck my mind because I was thinking about The mindset of people who are using these quote-unquote hate speech laws to silence any opposition to their leftist progressive secular humanist Anti-christian diatribes which are never hateful.

You can't be hateful from that perspective, but. And I I just started thinking about how Jeremiah was treated. Jeremiah Was accused in essence of treason and hate speech by proclaiming that God's judgment was going to come upon the nation for their sins and even got himself chucked in a in a slimy pit.

For having done so rich knows all about the slimy pit because rich did an in-depth Rich did an in-depth study of the slimy pit. Oh, I don't know. That was a long time ago. That was even that was what 19 when was that?

1980 ish 87 88 somewhere around there. When rich first started volunteering with the ministry before he had any official positions he had to do all the grunt stuff, which he still does how he's the president and so I Forget what it was.

We called him slime once and I even I even had a name badge made for him. Do you still have that name badge? Hey rich, do you still have your name badge? No, you don't have the name you got rid of it.

Oh, man I am I paid good money for that. But I I even had a name badge made for him that said rich Pierce slime and green I've been on the air way too much today. I shouldn't be talking about things like this.

But anyhow. What what's that we have three collars so I should be talking about something other than slime. People love when we tell these these inside stories about our what this is our 30th. Hey, did we never did we ever get that thing up?

Did we ever get the? Address up Testimonies is it up, but we're not we're not ready to run with it yet. Oh. But we haven't blogged it or anything. Oh well, we want we need to do that because we want people to be able to write in and and Talk to us about our 30th Anniversary because it's it's well, it's now basically and we need to we need to do that.

Anyhow There's a little historical lesson. I have no earthly idea what what I was talking about before that but we have we have three phone calls and I guess I'm supposed to get to them. I'm not sure if I forgot something but anyhow, let's let's go with them in the looks like the order they came in here and let's talk to Landon hi Landon.

Hi, dr. White. Thanks for taking my call, bud. You're most welcome, but I had a quick question. I'm gonna be attending the apologetics Academy in France this summer with John Ward Montgomery, and I think Greg Koukl is gonna be one of the speakers there this year and part of my reading that they're having me do was the Habermas like on a book of On the resurrection and they have this right that they William Lane Craig Shabir Ali debate and one thing that Stuck out in both of these was they're almost Adams on not.

Well, not starting. Not starting with the assertion that it's inerrant or authoritative.

Yeah, and well, I guess am I being overly critical and thinking that is somewhat dishonest and that if we're not going to. Try to defend this even on the front end and yet after conversion expecting it on the back end.

Well, is there some dishonesty there or my criticism my criticism Landon all along of the entire Evidentialist approach that is Exemplified by that entire school, which I have criticized many many many times is Not that their facts aren't good.

I mean, I I think there's probably a tremendous amount of good stuff encouraging stuff Important stuff in Mike Licona's book on the subject of the resurrection and I think it's great that you're reading it I have it in my library as well.

I would have no problem making Reference to it in those contexts, but it is a fundamental Approach issue and that is I I don't find that approach to be apostolic. I do not find the Apostles Operating on that level of Approach.

I do not believe there's such a thing as Morally neutral ground that I can step down on with the unbeliever and say, okay I'm not going to assume the that God has spoken and you can't assume that he hasn't.

We're just gonna reason with one another here from this neutral ground and then I'm gonna slowly get this person Incrementally to accept the idea that the preponderance of the evidence Points the greater probability of the existence of a God and then I'm gonna move them from a God to sort of a Unitarian God and from a Unitarian God to a Trinitarian God and I can introduce Jesus and eventually once I've got Jesus I can go and through the back door and get the authority of the Bible and eventually I have an orthodox Christian somewhere down the line as You have recognized Landon That's gonna mean if you're to work that way at some point in time down that road you're gonna have to stop and you got to look that person go, um, You know remember back when we started this and I said that we didn't you know I wasn't gonna assume anything and we were standing on neutral ground.

I was lying to you because Actually what I believe is that God created everything and he defines everything and therefore There's no such thing as any neutral ground because any fact that is a fact God made it the fact in fact Jesus made it that and If the Bible really is the Word of God as we've defined it to be then it's it's not dependent upon my arguments to Prove that it's actually Theano stoss and it has its own authority Inherent in it because of its nature and you know, I'm sorry I didn't tell you all that but I didn't think I'd get you to believe it back then anyways and so now you like me and we're buds and So maybe you'll accept it and I just don't see the Apostles ever doing that I I just and that's why I I can't go there and can't.

Join the party because I know and but that and see that the only difference is that they start with the resurrection. You know you you and this is as much for your listeners as anything. I don't mean to promote another ministry on your on your thing here, but an interview.

I know one thing that I noticed dr White is that when he interviewed like you and John frame suppositional guys and then would interview Gumry and That that comes out when he asked the question What advice would you hear is to take this upon themselves is every single one of you guys said know your Bible right first?

Hmm. That is a stark contrast weighed me, you know method and Convincing me and now I'm walking into the lions in the summer. You know trying to defend this and I really don't. I think exactly as you pointed out a view of the myth of neutrality.

It does not exist and it's in the Bible. It does not exist.

Right, I I agree a thousand percent if you have his book. Always ready. I think that's a that is the book that I use as a as a text. I teach apologetics and I would highly recommend it to folks and I you know.

Unless you're planning on doing a lot of challenging don't like don't don't look at it so much as the lion's den as you know I mean, I went to fuller seminary. Okay. There's I had to filter a lot of stuff.

But I still got a lot out of it and so you can still get a lot out of it. Even when you have a fundamental disagreement, but hopefully they'll be open to some type of dialogue, you know over dinner as to why is it the the Apostles didn't really do it this way and and Maybe go from there, but I hope that you benefit from your time there.

Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah. That's what I'm hoping to get cuz I you know, I'm with you as far as getting some of the facts and you know. Historicity and things like that. But yeah, I just you know as I was reading through this material and watching some of these debates.

It just didn't know if I was over stating it or don't play the authority of the Bible to somebody. Yeah, and then try to try to get them to buy into it later.

Well, and I would add to that add that Landon that if you start with the resurrection, I'm sorry but the Bible never presents the resurrection as a contextless statement. There is a context that makes the resurrection meaningful that requires certain presuppositional trues right off the bat.

I mean the point is that via the resurrection the father has vindicated the claims of the son. There's just all sorts of other stuff that goes there and to say well, I'm just gonna start here and Assume that in a naturalistic worldview this Amazing event can somehow be packed with all this meaning without my bringing in scriptural categories Inspiration all the rest.

I said, I'm sorry. It doesn't work. You're you're you're again. You're you're. Sort of selling a used car In in that way, and I just I just don't think that it works. So anyways, what would be I'm sorry real quick.

What would be a quick statement or a book you would recommend as far as refuting their concept. All knowledge is probability therefore that.

Well, obviously on a less than overly readable level. Those are the very issues that van Till went after in defense of the faith and that All others who have followed in his in his train Have have addressed in regards to the nature of knowledge the nature of God is creator all of these types of things and So I on the written level I'd go there.

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but Turretin fan who you may know from my blog has recently Blogged about Saiten Bruggen Kate's new film how to answer the fool on the subject of this this this matter and you might want to check that out and That's from Crown Rights.

They just came out with a video on this. So it might be very useful along those lines, but I know Oliphant stuff goes into the response in regards to the nature of knowledge and stuff like that. So that would be the direction I'd I'd have you go there and by the way.

And I and by the way, I I do appreciate apologetics 315 and What he has and the fact that he's he allows for balance and he interviews both sides and stuff like that. It is a great resource. So no problem promoting promoting apologetics 315.

Thank you, yeah, you have a good time all right, we had another caller that had a good topic and What was what was the? Yeah on the comma. And that's a bummer so if if you were the one calling I forget who it was and you had a question about the comma.

Yo, honey, um, I'll be happy to take that call. Give us a call back you never know if someone's on a cell phone or whatever else might be but who was the author that I just cited I cited a number of authors Van Til and elephants and Other people like that.

Yeah, there you go. So we phone lines are open we're about to go to Peter but now you have other phone lines open at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number for you to call and Hopefully some of you will do that so that when I get done talking with Peter we'll be able to talk with you as well.

Let's talk with Peter. Hi Peter talking to you. Yes, sir.

Reconciling James and Paul on Justification

Reconciling James and Paul. Mm-hmm. Um, you're you recommended they got justified. Yes. You know where I'm at. Oh, yeah, I I Reject that it seems to me a lot of Roman Catholics try to. The impression I get is they try to differentiate works of the law As like prohibitions and specific good deed, but I think when Jesus says, you know The sum of the law is to treat your neighbor as yourself good deed as part of the work of the law.

Well, I don't know that there is a one single Roman Catholic. It's not like the Magisterium has said this is the meaning of works of law. You can find unfortunately different views of that even amongst I would say that for example Trent's understanding of that is different than Vatican twos understanding of that and you can certainly find cardinals and bishops and stuff today that would have differing views on that.

But yeah, okay, I would agree that They definitely are seeking to do something with James to that is that is not there. But evidently you disagreed with what I had to say. Well treat your neighbor as yourself you mean love your neighbor, yeah, okay.

Well, that was the that's the second commandment. So, I mean obviously that would involve You know all sorts of behavior the the the the prodigal son I'm sorry, the Good Samaritan for example being an example of of what that is.

So.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Agree that that specific way of working. Okay. How do you reconcile it? Well, I was looking at the God who justifies and I see you start. You say look through the words of James as well.

I don't see why I should have come. Whoa, okay so we.

You you don't. What what kind of yeah associated with Peter?

No, I you know, I read what he said.

I looked at yeah, Luther never. Luther never rejected the book of James and he cited scripture numerous times.

But the preface to the 1522 edition he yeah. But he never rejected.

Luther never believed he had the right to change Canon and he cited it as scripture a number of times. I've read a master's thesis on the subject of James's use of Luther. You could go over and see James Swan stuff, but I'm not a Lutheran and so I'm not gonna go there.

Do you do you think that God? inspired scripture. Yeah, okay. If he inspired scripture then do you think he's gonna extend the same amount of effort to Make sure that his church knows what it is. And if so, then why why would we need to go 1500 years?

Having been misled about James and then now we need to somehow get rid of it. And on what basis will we do that? Well, I'd highly recommend a book called the Canon reconsidered By dr. Michael Kruger to you.

It's a new book and I think you would find it to be exceptionally helpful exceptionally helpful.

Yeah, I think that's what I wanted to get with the recommendation. Like I if I come to the table with the presupposition that James is Canon I yeah, I can reconcile it. I think I could come to peace about it, but I think that's where I need to go now.

Oh, well, what else what else have you decided isn't scripture? No. No, I'm not. I'm not going crossing out books in my Bible. I'm just James 224. Really you know, I read your I Read what you did in the God wrote in the God that justifies.

And I just I still haven't really come to peace about it. Isn't so teary logically prescriptive, but I mean James says the truth a lot, but it seems prescriptive to me. Putting it in there. He's talking about you know, you think do you think this kind of faith can save you?

It can't save you. Yeah, exactly. You have this this kind of faith. What is that kind of faith? That's why I spent 24 pages on it is what use is it? My brother and if someone says he has faith, but he has no works can that faith save him?

The point is this is an empty faith. This is a faith that has no connection and the whole point is that when God saves a person he actually saves a person this the real true saving faith is the work of the Holy Spirit of God and so it's going to have an impact upon our lives.

Now we can differentiate between the faith and the result as we must but James's point is if you're gonna run around saying that you have this kind of saving faith and yet you're Living in such a way that all you have are your words and your wife's never seen it and your kids have never seen it.

Your neighbors have never seen it. You're deceiving yourself. How else would how else as a as a person involved in pastoral ministry? I don't know how else I would be able to approach The people that I've encountered who were deceiving themselves that they actually were believers.

Now I know that there's the other side of that. I know that there are people who are troubled because they're constantly Examining themselves and and they're they're overly self-reflective. But that's a much much smaller problem than the much larger problem in the church.

And that is of people who are self-deceived. They they have a said faith, but it's not a real faith. And that's what James is addressing. And I think that there is a consistent line beginning at verse 14.

That follows that directly through and all the way through to verse 24, so I'm not sure how else he would have addressed it, but.

I guess right now where I'm hovering over is the idea that James I Mean in that. In that one preface that Luther said he says that James didn't have the the eloquence to state it and I look At it fuzzy and just unclear.

It's just hard to understand in in defense of in defense of James Peter.

We are reading a document that was written 2 ,000 years ago to an audience that very often we are unwilling to Really do the work to enter into their shoes. So if if we as modern Americans Basically say well, this is fuzzy to me.

Well, let me tell you something I Have you read much Jeremiah recently, it's really fuzzy. Because it's hard for us to enter into That that mindset and to do what we need to do with it. So yeah.

I'm willing I'm learning Greek and I'm gonna get that book you recommended. Let me just ask you one more specific question. Sure. You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. Is that?

That's what the verse is saying. The five before before men. Right, and that if you I guess as a person you apprehend that he's he's saved. Is that what that verse is saying that you like, you know, this guy's doing good works.

Okay, he's saying.

Well again when you look at the examples and you follow it when you follow it through and You look especially I I pointed out the the term in verse 18 is Dykes on Dykes on more show me. Show me right who's the meat?

That was good. Yeah. Okay, so it's the the context hasn't changed the issue hasn't changed show me Abraham showed His faith by his obedience to God's command even so much so as to believe that God could raise the dead.

That's what Paul says in. Well, that's what the writer of the Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter 11. That's a section to be preaching on pretty soon. That Was a demonstration of a faith that according to the Bible He had had earlier was justified on that basis but because it was a true living faith it was able to give evidence of its existence and that's the important point.

So Dykes on moi Follows right through to verse 24. And so yes that justification is a justification That is different from the justification that is before God and the examples that James uses. Illustrate that that's why I say James and Paul are on the same page and it is only no offense to you.

I'm not saying this to you because a lot of scholars have done this. It's only our laziness that allows me allows us To put them at odds with one another as common as that might be if we're willing to do the work.

They won't be at odds with another they're saying the same things when you read Ephesians chapter 2. We are his workmanship create in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before Dane that we should walk in them.

So but pick up that book by Kruger. We have it in our store. You can get an Amazon as well, but Canon reconsidered. I think you'd find to be really helpful. Yeah, I will. All right, thanks Peter. Have a good one.

Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three, three, three, four one. Which one came first? Okay. All right. Let's talk to Wendy. Hi Wendy.

Hi, Mr. White. I just wanted to say thank you and God bless you so much for the many years of hard work You've putting into studying different faiths their books so that you can give an answer for the hope that lies within you.

I'm a 27 year old mom who listens to the divine and I enjoy it. I've learned a lot so much Listening to you and actually my husband deployed and I start to listen to you and them the second week of February this year and I can't get enough of.

When you go to the debates and You do an awesome awesome job. Well Wendy those those are very very encouraging words. And I love I love my my mom audience. I probably drive them insane a few times of some of my comments because I'm just really not politically correct but but I will have young young ladies come up to me moms, especially it when I'm out speaking and and they'll tell me about how their kids have learned the opening song to They know in the dividing line starting and stuff like that I guess great.

That's that's pretty awesome. And and maybe Steve camp will Will be happy about that too, because that's his music. But anyway. Well, thank you Wendy and you said your husband's deployed so. Well, God bless you.

Thanks for for taking care of the home front and we'll pray for his safety as well. Thank you any bye-bye. That's that's sweet. Wait, I just we've got to find out how many people download this program there's got to be a way to know.

I can guarantee you Google knows and And Apple knows but we need to know. I think we would be absolutely shocked. I really do. I think we would be blown away. Let's talk to.

Yes, I saw them. Well, maybe God needs to keep that a secret from us. So our heads don't get too big.

No, it's just it makes you make us all the more nervous. Oh, it's time for the dividing line as long as people listening. Let's uh, eight seven seven seven five three three, two four one. I still want the comma Johanium caller back.

Let's let's let's get that in there if we can before the end of the program. Let's talk to Hayden up in Canadia. Canadian a hey Hayden. Hey, dr. White. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that, but I'm heading your guys's direction in October.

I'm just hope I can get back out again. We're boot. I wear boots and a good. Actually, you're you're just you know, you sound fine, but I'm I'm going to Vancouver. Yes, all of the the solo scripture Conference I'll be speaking on Islam One of the two forbidden subjects at least not having me speak on Homosexuality that I'd never get back back to Canada again because they'd they'd stop me at the border and kick me out.

I don't know indeed.

Yes, sir. I have a I have a question about Roman Catholicism. Yes, sir I've been talking to some of my friends. And they were asking like can Roman Catholics be saved or is it a denomination and I've just been saying no.

It's not. And putting them towards Galatians and just how they added something on to the gospel. And how they receive mass and how it's important to know if you're not a like we'll go to mass you know every week and that they actually receive grace through communion there and I've talked with some Roman Catholics and they were kind of denying this really though.

Yeah, do you have any sort of clarification on that? Because I'm not sure they're just misrepresenting themselves. Yeah.

Well, you got to realize there are a lot of. You're gonna find a lot of nominal Catholics just like you find nominal Protestants and stuff like that. And I really don't believe that's a A well-read Roman Catholic who knows the Catholic Catechism or anything like that would for a second deny that in the Eucharistic sacrifice there is Grace or that it's a perpetuatory sacrifice.

They they just haven't read either the Universal Catholic Catechism or Vatican II or Trent or anything else. I mean there really isn't any question about this almost any source you'd want to look at is going to confirm all of that but there are many especially young Catholics who will be involved in parishes where they have liberal priests and Those liberal priests just don't teach them what Rome actually teaches.