John Cooper of Skillet on the Dividing Line: Faith and Music

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:52

You spoke a word and life began Told oceans where to start and where you set in motion time and space

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Still you come and you call to me by name Still you come and you call to me by name

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You can hold my heart the same whenever I start

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To the one who holds the stars The deepest depths, the darkest nights

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Can't separate, can't keep me from your sight Lost, forget my

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And you don't forget my name Stars in place, you can hold my heart the same

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Whenever I fall away, whenever I start to break

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So here I am, lifting up my heart Lifting up my heart

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If you can call my name You're the one who holds the stars

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And of course is the band Skillet and my guest today, very honored to have with me none other than the lead singer from Skillet, John Cooper.

04:29

Hey John, how you doing today? Good, what's up? How's it going? So were you singing along?

04:35

That's what I wanted to know. Yeah, that was all live actually. Yeah, yeah,

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I didn't see the rest of the band behind you, but the sound was pretty good for being all live.

04:48

We do a pretty good job, I'm not gonna lie. Very in tune. How long ago was that recorded?

04:54

Oh, probably four years. Yeah, about four years ago. Four years ago. Okay. All right.

05:00

But you haven't changed at all. No, no. In fact, those four years went pretty fast. When you said it,

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I was thinking, I think it was about a year ago. No, it's been like four years. Yep. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you start getting into those middle years.

05:16

I won't mention anything about that. But mid -twenties, that's right. That's right.

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If that's what you want to say, I've been putting up with my wife saying that for 20 years, so it's good.

05:28

So no problem with that at all. Hey, John Cooper, why don't you tell us a little bit about who the rest of Skillet is?

05:35

We saw the four major folks there, but tell us who we were seeing.

05:41

Okay, let's see. My wife, Cori, is in the band. A lot of people don't know that. Obviously, you do, since me and you chat all the time.

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My wife, Cori, is the guitar player. And then Jen Ledger is the other girl in the band.

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She plays drums. And my guitar player, Seth Morrison, who's probably listening right now.

06:02

So hey, Seth. My wife is in the other room. As you know, she got all my computer hooked up for me, because I'm completely illiterate with all this stuff.

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But she set up this amazing Zoom call. Now, Seth, you're on bass, aren't you?

06:20

I play bass. That's right. Okay. All right. So he's doing more of the guitar riff stuff.

06:26

Yes, he has guitars. And then my wife, Cori, plays guitars and keyboards. And then

06:32

I sing and play bass. Okay, good. All right. So four of you, but that's not obviously all of Skillet.

06:39

You've probably got all sorts of folks that make things work behind the scenes and stuff like that as well. Oh, certainly. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's not a four -person. Even though I was watching one of the interviews you all did, and Cori was mentioning that she started off selling merch.

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She was the merch girl. That's right. Yeah, we got married. And I was like, you have no idea what a great life

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I'm going to give you. Come on the road with my band, and you can sell T -shirts. That's love, brother.

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Let me tell you something. Yeah. She had her own band that she sung in and played keyboards in.

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We got married. She came out with us. And about a year into the group, we began adding keyboards into the sound and trying different things.

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And it got to be so much that we thought, we're going to have to add a player to the band. She was already on the road, and she was willing to do it.

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And I was like, I think it'd be really cool. Oh, yeah. We never really expected to do it, but God had cool plans, as He always does, and that's where it's at.

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Well, now, you were both raised in Christian families, were introduced to the faith very young.

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In fact, both of you have a similar testimony to myself of God being gracious to you at a very, very young age.

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And I don't know about you, but when I was younger, I sort of felt a little bit badly about having such a boring testimony because all these other people had this exciting testimony of being delivered from all this stuff.

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And I was just a preacher's kid. But as I've gotten older, believe you me,

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I have come to deeply appreciate the fact of not having had to go through all that stuff.

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And so I saw from some of the stuff that I was watching that both of you had had that great blessing.

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Doesn't mean you always walk faithfully all the way through your teen years and things like that.

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There are always those bumps in the road, I suppose. But her view of her favorite type of music was a little bit different than yours, wasn't it?

08:58

I mean, I think we did like a lot of the same things. But certainly

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I've always been drawn more to really heavy rock than she has. But we did like a lot of the same stuff, especially a lot of the same

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Christian music influences growing up. And I will say, yes,

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I know what you mean about the testimony thing because it used to be that feeling of like everybody wanted the crazy testimony of sin.

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But I have always been so thankful that God called me at a young age.

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I didn't have to suffer. I didn't have to suffer the pain that is a result of not living for God because when we don't live

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His way, obviously we are going to suffer in certain ways. So I was always so thrilled, so honored to be one of God's children and called by Him at a young age.

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I think the only bad part of that for me was probably in truth it probably was years later that I began to have an understanding of what total depravity actually meant.

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Yes. Because I kind of thought that I was a pretty good guy. And, you know, that was when you don't understand how amazing it is to be saved, there can become, you know, that you know what

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I'm getting at. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And when I started realizing the depth of sin in my life, then

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I became even more thankful to God that He had called me at a young age and He saved me from all those things that could have been.

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So we're just so thankful to be God's and always wanted to be used in music. And my wife was the same way.

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We were very similar in terms of our calling, our belief in Christian music, our belief in music in general, about what a privilege it is to play music and what a privilege it is to be able to evangelize.

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That God has given us a calling to proclaim His name is so wonderful.

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So we had that in common. And that is why it kind of made sense that we linked up. Right, right.

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So now you've got some kids? I've got two kids.

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My daughter just graduated. She was in the 2020 lockdown. Poor kid.

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Oh, man, I've really felt sorry for any seniors. Oh, goodness. The face mask generation.

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Yeah, so she bought her own cap and gown. And well, actually, let me rewind, because my kids are both homeschooled, because they've been coming with us on the road ever since they were born, because Skillet's been gone for 23 years now.

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So they didn't miss out on going to school, because they never went to school. But she still she bought her own cap and gown.

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And we had like the ceremony. Oh, yeah. The ceremony on the internet with all the names scrolling down the screen.

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It was really weird. But anyway, so my daughter's 17, and she loves

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Jesus. And God called her at an early age, too. And then my son is just turned 15 just this week.

12:08

Oh, wow. And yeah, and my son's walking with the Lord. And he listens to the DL sometimes.

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So his birthday is fairly close to your wife's then? Yeah, yeah.

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They're about five days apart. Yeah, yeah. Well, happy birthday to both of them. So you've got the family going.

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And obviously, touring has come to a screeching halt for everybody.

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So that has obviously changed everything for everybody. I mean, it's changed the world.

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Let's just be honest. I'm not going to ask you to try to figure out what the future is going to hold for you guys, because none of us know what it's going to hold for any of us, to be perfectly honest with you.

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But now real quick, Skillet, you're not trying to get into churches, really, okay?

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I mean, you have a different approach. You're not trying to compete.

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I mean, I don't even know how to describe it, because your music, some of the songs, you're listening to it, and you go, okay, is that talking about this, or is it talking about that?

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I could make spiritual applications, but it's somewhat veiled. And then others are really clear.

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I mean, Stars is really clear. Terrified at Dark is really clear. There's a bunch of them that you couldn't read it any other way, but then you've got some others that you could.

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You obviously had to make a decision at some point, or has it been sort of a development over time as to exactly how you wanted to do this?

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I would say all of the above. The mission for Skillet was to evangelize through music.

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Now, that was also my understanding of the original intent of Christian music with Larry Norman and Rez Band and Garmon Key and all those great groups that I grew up listening to.

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That was my understanding of their vision. I think that there's a lot of different facets of Christian music.

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You also have Christian music that I would call more like worship music. That would be more like songs you would sing in church.

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For Skillet, what I really wanted to do was share my faith to non -Christians.

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And throughout the years, God began to open up doors for us to be able to do that on the mainstream side.

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And yes, that required a lot of finagling and a lot of praying and trying to say things in the right way and open the right doors.

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But truthfully, it was mainly a miracle because all the doors were shutting.

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And then miraculously, one at a time, they would begin to open. And what I decided that I wanted to do that I thought was a little different than historical

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Christian music was what I thought would make us a

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Christian band. Would it necessarily be that every song, as you say, is obviously

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Christian? And not every song is even going to be religious by nature. We have some love songs.

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We have some fun songs, songs about video games. What would make Skillet Christian overtly would be our lifestyles.

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And I made it a point to say every interview I do, I talk about Christ. Every show we play,

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I talk about Christ. Every backstage thing that we have with all of my band members, we are going to be on display as ambassadors for Christ everywhere we go.

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That is, I think, what made Skillet a little bit unique because simultaneously, we were becoming one of the most unovertly

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Christian acts from a lyrical standpoint. But simultaneously, I think we were one of the most overt

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Christian acts from a whole lifestyle of holiness aspect, if that's an

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OK thing. I don't know if that's the right way to say that. But we made lines of standards that we live by and things that we say in our concerts and at radio stations.

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And I just was like, we're going to be the most bold Christian rock act in history.

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That's what I really wanted. So we would go do interviews and people would say, hey, we got this band

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Skillet. And I remember one of the first interviews we had when we crossed over, we had a mainstream hit with a song called

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Monster. And I remember the guy said, man, some people say you guys are a

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Christian band. That can't possibly be the case. That didn't make any sense, right? It's not what you're about.

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And I just made a decision before that first interview that I was going to just shut it down from the beginning.

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So I said, absolutely, I'm a Christian. There's nothing else to live for.

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Life without Christ is hell on earth and there is nothing else worth giving my life to.

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And so it just shut the conversation down. And we became known as a band that was unashamed of the gospel.

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And I think that that is more what has defined Skillet as a Christian act, more than the individual lyrics of each individual song, if that makes sense.

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It makes perfect sense. Now, trying to be salt and light, though, in the context that you have purposely inserted yourself into, has got to be one of the most challenging...

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Let me just put it this way. I couldn't do it. There's no way. So one of the reasons that I wanted to touch base with you, and we're going to look at the

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CBN thing here in a second, but one of the reasons I wanted to touch base with you is I was sensing that's what you were doing.

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And I'm like, I think I could help. I think I could provide some background and resources and whatever, because it's not going to get any easier.

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But seriously, that area that you're in is incredibly challenging, and the reality is most

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Christians would be like, nah, don't even try. Don't even try to go there. Just stay away from it.

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I know you've gotten pushback. Is that part of the spectrum of what you've gotten?

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I mean, a little bit. You know, for me, I like that you just said salt and light.

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And I think for me, I've had the benefit of people like yourselves, my own pastors, people that have put into my life that I've never been, we've never been an island.

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And I have really always so appreciated that the people of God, we're supposed to be together.

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And it's not one of the problems I see with Christian music is that all of these Christian musicians are almost, they almost live their lives like itinerant pastors or something.

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Except they don't have any relationship. They don't have co -pastors or co -elders. They just kind of go do their thing.

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And because of that, they're not being fed. And so many bands I've talked to, Christian bands,

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I've said, hey, I just want to tell you that just because you're in the world doesn't mean you're salt in life.

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It just means you might be hopefully saved and in the world. But when we're called to be salt, that means we are called to be preservative to the world.

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We're called to be an antiseptic to the world. And if you are not bringing that the gospel in your daily life and to the world, you're not actually being salt in life.

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You're just being a Christian guy out there doing it. And at some point, you know, the

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Bible says you can't have two masters. Right, right. You're either going to love one, you're going to hate the other.

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And when it comes down to sex, drugs, rock and roll, or you just figuring it all out all by your lonesome, you might not make it.

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And I've had the real benefit of having a relationship with not just with my band, but with my pastors.

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And that is why when I call, a lot of people listening don't know that, you know, I probably text you 15 times a week asking you various things about sovereignty of God, double predestination.

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Well, now, John, I was sort of hoping that eventually, you know, when we had that long conversation a few weeks ago when

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I was driving home from Flagstaff, you know, there was a... I'm hoping someday to have a

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Skillet shirt, because I am wearing my victorious Skillet shirt right now. But you have not told anybody about the new position that I have?

20:56

Yeah, yeah. You got to tell the world. They're all dying to know, I'm sure. Yeah, the official theologian for Skillet.

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That's me right here, right here. That sounds good. I don't have my shirt yet. I'm waiting for the shirt, but I want the official theologian for Skillet.

21:09

No, seriously, one of the main reasons I wanted to talk with you, you were saying in that CBN interview, what you just said right now

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I think is why you guys have lasted, because you and Corey have been married 23 years now?

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22, 23? Yeah, that's right, 23. 23 years, and Skillet's been going since 96,

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I think? That's exactly accurate. Ooh, that's a long time. Okay, so most people don't last that long, okay?

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That's just the reality in that business. And to stay focused, you have to have a firm foundation, and you just said what

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I think that firm foundation is all about. I haven't mentioned this to you, but every time we talk, if it goes more than five minutes, something like that, you say something about your pastors.

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So you've recognized the wisdom that's clearly in the New Testament that we are a part of a church, that we are joined to a body.

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And if you don't have that grounding, you're not going to last. You're going to wander off. And you were exactly – the funny thing is, we have the same problem in apologetics that you've mentioned amongst

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Christian bands, and that is many apologists just go from church to church to church to church every

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Sunday, and they're never grounded in any one church. One of the things that I think has helped me tremendously over the years is

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I had to teach junior high schoolers the doctrine of the

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Trinity, and even younger than that. That is vitally important. That's extremely important to be plugged in in that way.

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I think it's vitally important for maturity and stability and just not getting blown about by every wind of doctrine.

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And so, you may not have recognized that as the central, vital thing at the start, but man, by grace, keep it that way, and you'll stay on the straight and narrow, and you'll be going.

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Once you get to my age, you start thinking of this phrase, finishing well.

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Finishing well. It's one thing to start well. A lot of people do. Finishing well is not nearly as easily done, and that's something that certainly

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I think is extremely important. So, I think that's really, really great. But I did tell you that just a few weeks ago, one of the pastors at my church,

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Apologia Church, posted in our WhatsApp group, Pastors Act, linked to your

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CBN interview. And he said, man, I really love what this guy's saying. And I'm like, yeah, well, we're going to have him on the program before long, so tune on in.

23:48

That's great. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to play that so that people can see.

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You said you just, background -wise, you wrote an article that you didn't think anybody was going to see, and it was because some people had either left the faith, or were saying they no longer really believed that they could be faithful Christians.

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They had lots of questions, whatever it might be. And they were well -known. And so, you wrote an article not knowing that it would explode, and so I guess

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CBN, did CBN just contact you and say, could we? Because it looked like you were in a hotel room, am I right? Yeah, that's right.

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We were on tour, yep. That's where you normally are, so I'm lucky to catch you at home, but that's not so much lucky as it is coronavirus.

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But yeah, so let's listen to what you had to say. It's about five minutes long, and then we'll come back and see what your thoughts are about where this went, and we'll go from there.

24:47

Okay. News of two high -profile faith leaders walking away from Christianity is making headlines.

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Joshua Harris, author of the popular book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, announced last month on Instagram that he was leaving the

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Christian faith. And Hillsong worship leader Marty Samson says, while he hasn't renounced his faith, he is struggling.

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John Cooper, leader of, lead singer rather, of the Christian rock band Skillet, addressed the issue in a post on Facebook saying,

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Christians need to value truth over feeling. John joins us now via Skype. Welcome, my friend.

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Everyone is talking about your Facebook post addressing the issue of Christian leaders falling away.

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John, why did you feel the need to write this post? First of all, great to be here.

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I felt the need to do this not to attack anybody, not out of hatred, not out of anger.

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I just was sad. I was depressed. These are people that have influenced my life, my kids' lives, my friends' lives, my church.

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And it's so saddening and so disheartening. And I just want to make a call to the church to grab a hold again of the preeminence of the word of God and that there is absolute truth, that Jesus is the way.

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And there's so, the social media platforms are so big and these voices are so loud. I just want to say, hey,

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I'm really sad about this. I didn't think anybody would care about my post, to be honest. I didn't think anybody would even read it.

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But I'm sad about it. And I'm just pleading for the church to come back to the gospel, to come back to the truth of the word of God that never changes.

26:25

John, in your post, you warned Christians to stop making worship leaders and other influencers, including yourself, the most influential people in Christendom.

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Explain what you mean by this. Yeah, what I mean by this is that if you look the right way, if you sing the right way, if you sound the right way, then you can become an extremely powerful person in today's

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Christian culture, because unfortunately, the church, me included, my church included, my family included, unfortunately, the church is looking to be entertained.

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We are not looking to worship God as he ought to be worshipped. We're looking for people to feed us, entertain us.

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And so what we have is that we're elevating people that sing the right way. And we are letting things get away with lyrics and songs, perhaps skillet.

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I've written a lot of songs that I would not want to be sung at church because they are not theologically accurate enough to sing about God's character.

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So that's what I mean about that. I don't want to be the person that people listen to. I want the word of God to do that.

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And there are people that are gifted and anointed from God to be sharing the word. And that's who

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I want to see us elevate. Yeah, you mentioned the preeminence of the word of God. Let's talk about that for a few seconds here.

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You are urging believers to rediscover the preeminence and the value of the word of God.

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Why is that so important? Well, it's important because we're not just seeing this in the church.

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We're seeing it all of culture. We are basically seeing the grandchildren of 1960s postmodern thought.

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The absolute truth is done. What's true for you might not be true for me. We're seeing it in everything, in the universities.

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We're seeing in politics. Everybody is so confused about what truth is. And the church is supposed to be invading culture with the kingdom of God.

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And instead, we are letting the culture invade the church. And that's not the way that we're supposed to do it.

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Jesus is the only thing in this world that will never change. Everything else is going to fall away.

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Everything else is going to change. But his word stands forever. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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And if we lose that, then we basically lose everything. Real quickly, last question.

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You have been involved in the Christian music scene for many, many years. John, how do you stay balanced and true to the word of God?

28:58

Through reading the word of God, through studying it through my pastor, through the people that I listen to.

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And as I say, I am no theologian. Nobody wants me to start being a theologian. That's not what

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I'm trying to do. I stay balanced by feeding myself truth, even when that truth can sometimes be somewhat inconvenient.

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There are things about God that I've had to struggle with. And I realized, you know what?

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If I'm struggling with who God is, it's not God that needs to change. It's me that needs to change.

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That's what lordship is about. And we are losing that in a generation of young people. And I think that we could be doing a much better job of preaching truth.

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And it's not just the leaders I'm talking about. I'm talking about all of us, the church. We need to say, you know what?

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I don't want to look for what is entertaining. I don't want to look to what tickles my ears. I want to look for what is right and true.

29:54

And if my ideas of God are wrong, then I need to change my ideas of who God is. Okay. Terrific.

30:00

John, thank you so much. I appreciate your insights and coming on the show. All right. Now, John, you said in that interview, you said,

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I'm no theologian, but you dropped a lot of theology. And in fact, you know, you did.

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And in fact, I'm not trying to butter you up here, but those types of interviews, you know, you've done them.

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I've done them. They're tough. You have a very limited amount of time, and you're under a lot of pressure to try to communicate something meaningful and memorable in a short period of time.

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And you did. You really did. And so, I mean, that's why it caught so many people's attention,

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I think, is partly it was, wow, this guy just said we shouldn't be the people being put up there.

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It should be the people that God has put in the body to exposit His Word and things like that.

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That's not what we expect to hear from people in your situation.

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And yet, once again, that's that grounding, man. That's what made me want to reach out, is

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I'm like, here's somebody that's got the right grounding and then has an audience that I'll probably never be able to reach.

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So if I can be in any way of assistance by being a brother and a friend to someone like that, man, that just simply amplifies everything

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I've been doing, and that's how the body works and stuff like that. So congratulations, first of all.

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That was very, very, very well done. That was great. That was great. But secondly, was

31:46

I right to detect that at one point you broke into the bridge from Kingdom in your answer?

31:55

Oh, let me think. One heart, one voice, one name. I can't remember.

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I gotta think of my own song. Oh, I know, I know. I've been telling people. Oh yeah, yeah.

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I've been telling people. You're right. You did, yeah. Because you were saying everything else will fade away.

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Everything else fades away. The Word of the Lord stands forever. That's right. That's right. There it is. So I knew it was that.

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Maybe it wasn't the bridge. Maybe it was in the chorus or something like that of Kingdom. And ever since that long conversation we had,

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I've been telling people, I said, by the way, I asked about a certain line in another song

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I'm going to play here in a minute, and I didn't even get the words right because I just heard it like that morning for the first time,

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Terrify the Dark. And I was saying something along the lines of, it's something about your wounds or something.

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And then you started singing, and then you came up with the line. I said, so you have to sing it to remember it.

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And you said, yeah, of course. It's like the ABCs. Or the books of the

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Bible. Who can remember all the prophets in a row unless you sing the song?

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That's how you learned it. Yeah, so no, I am so thankful that you had the opportunity to do that, because there were a lot of people that...

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I mean, that was a situation, like you said, that those were big names, and that really rocks people's foundations if their foundation isn't really stable.

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That's what's so sad about it, isn't it? Is that when you put...

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I mean, Jesus told us already about building your house on the sand. But when you do that, what's really difficult is when you think you're building it on the rock, but you find out later, oh, that wasn't rock, that was sand.

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It's when you don't know it part. And I think that it is very convenient for us to be giving platforms to, again, people like myself, worship leaders that sound good or look good or sing the right thing.

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I think there comes a time... I feel bad for pastors in 2020, 2019, 2018.

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I feel bad for pastors in a certain way, because there is that feeling of, if we don't sing modern music, is anyone going to come?

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You know, I understand what they're going through, and I also understand...

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I hope this is going to make sense to some people. I can understand that what happens if you're a pastor and all the young people really want you to sing this song, and you're listening to the song, and you're like, yeah, but I really hate that one line in the song.

34:41

And you just seem like a real old fuddy -duddy, you know. But in reality, that one line of the song is actually heretical, and you don't want to sing something that's untrue about God's character.

34:53

But everybody's going, oh, why do you have to make things so difficult? And I see this happening over and over, and because of my career, there have been songs of mine that wouldn't get played on Christian radio, frankly, because of the way that I look, or something like that.

35:08

And I've been like, man, you're not playing my song because of the way I look, but you're playing that song when it talks about that God's love is reckless?

35:19

Is that really something that we want to be singing about? Is that a great idea, you know?

35:26

And those kind of things are kind of shocking to me, and we should be paying attention to them, because songs in church should be about God, and they should be about His character, and they should be honoring to Him.

35:39

And singing something that's not true about God's character is not a great idea. That's why I say, don't sing skillet songs at church.

35:48

Most of my songs are about me, or about us. They're not about Him, you know? Well, okay, yeah, and it would be difficult for a congregation,

35:57

I think, to sing a number of your songs. It's hard for a congregation to sing certain kinds of songs and things like that.

36:09

But that does bring me to Terrify the Dark. There are some...

36:17

Well, let me just tell a story here. Um, I mentioned to you that most people know

36:23

I'm an avid cyclist, and so you frequently want to be listening to rather up -tempo music when you're trying to climb.

36:31

I've sent you some of the rides I've done recently, and you're like, you are insane. And Rich is in the other room going, yep, he is.

36:38

There's no toys about it. And I mean, I'm riding tomorrow morning. It'll probably be 93 before sunrise when

36:44

I start. So most people are like, you're crazy. Anyway, I think anybody that wants to take the time to learn

36:51

Greek and Hebrew the way you have is a glutton for punishment. That's true, that's true. So I figured you're up for anything.

36:58

I am. So up -tempo music really helps, especially when I'm trying to... And you guys have so many lyrics about to the top, to the top.

37:08

You didn't plan it that way, but I've sent you videos when I was climbing hills in Zwift where I'm climbing this ridiculous grade, and that's what's in the background, is

37:20

I'm not going to give up to the top. It's like, yeah, I need that. I need that encouragement right now because I don't have anybody stand over here yelling at me like they do in the

37:27

Tour de France. That would help. But anyways, so I had a bunch of Skillet songs in my writing music, so I knew them really, really well.

37:38

I forget what I did, but I changed something. And all of a sudden, a song that I had never heard before because it wasn't on the writing one started as I was starting a ride, and it was

37:50

Terrify the Dark. And I actually stopped and replayed it because I wanted to re -listen to some of the lyrics because it just caught me.

38:01

This would function as an anthem for the hopeful church, for the church that wants to be triumphant, for the church that understands that in Matthew 16, when it says the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, that the verb there means that the church is going through the gates, not that the gates are protecting the church from Hades.

38:25

So it's the church that is moving forward, not Hades in Matthew chapter 16. Oh, I didn't know that.

38:32

Well, see, I was sending you little tidbits each day, and I need to get back to doing that, and that's one of the important ones.

38:43

But it just struck me as a... Given what's going on in the world right now, you'll remember the question that I asked you.

38:52

I think that was the same day that we had that long talk. I said, do you ever write a song, and then all the circumstances in the world change, and when you have to sing it, it's like, wow, this is a whole lot tougher than I even remember writing it.

39:11

I mean, in other words, one of the lines, remember the line I asked you about, was, what's the line, my doubts...

39:19

My doubt will answer to your scars. My doubt will answer to your scars.

39:25

Now, there's a lot of people struggling right now with fear and uncertainty, and their people have all sorts of doubts concerning their relationship to God and things like that.

39:38

And yet, it's also saying, your light will terrify the dark. It's not the darkness closing in, and we're the only few little ones left on the side of a hill someplace type thing.

39:50

It has a Jesus is the son sitting on the throne, and he's going to be victorious, and he's still in control, is in the background of all of this.

40:02

And so it just, as you know, you made me feel wonderful a couple days ago, and you said, you guys finally got to go on and do a show,

40:13

I think last week, right? Yeah, that's right. And so I had written to you all, and one of the things

40:21

I said was, be careful, don't pull any muscles. It's been a while since you did all this last. Did you read that to the guys?

40:27

I really don't know if you did or not. Yeah, yeah, that was funny. But I mentioned, there's gonna be a lot of folks gonna be hearing this stuff that are gonna be like, and you actually called it, we didn't get to sing your song,

40:42

Terrify the Dark. Yes, it's yours. You called it my song, so I'm like, yes, I'm moving up in the world.

40:48

But give us a little background before I play it. Talk to me about, am

40:54

I touching on really where it's coming from, that this is, it's not about the dark, it's about the light.

41:01

It's positive. That is absolutely accurate. I think if I had to give, my short version would be this.

41:10

I have not, I'm only saying this because I listen to DL all the time, and your audience is very different than my audience.

41:17

I don't wanna pin myself down to a theological position that I'm gonna get yelled at for, or that I can't defend.

41:23

But I'm still working out in full my eschatology.

41:29

Like we all are. It's hard stuff, but I had a major change in my life when

41:36

I was 18, when I went from a very fundamentalist,

41:42

Southern Baptist background. And when I went to college, I began reading a lot of Spurgeon and things like that, even

41:53

Augustine and City of God. And all of a sudden, I began seeing,

42:01

I don't wanna speak for other people, but for what my own brain was thinking, which was very strongly pre -mill, the whole thing that I had grown up with,

42:11

I started seeing something else in the Word that was teaching me about a God who was victorious, and a

42:19

God who had created, who had planned, excuse me, I shouldn't say created, who had decreed a bride that was going to be without spot and blemish, a bride that was very strong, and because she was filled with the presence of Christ.

42:35

And that really changed me in such a powerful way that I swung pretty hard post -millennial.

42:44

And I think since then, I've changed a little bit, but my point is, is that all through my career, you will definitely pick up on a very strong post -millennial bit in all of my music.

42:56

That is one of not giving up, that is one of finishing the race, that is one of the victorious kingdom of God, what may be the unshakable.

43:07

I read a book in college that I love called The Unshakable King, The Unchanging Person, what was that called?

43:13

The Unshakable Kingdom and The Unchanging Person, I believe it was called, which I loved. And so you'll pick up on that in most all of my songs.

43:21

And that is not to say that I'm ready to write a book on eschatology, but I very much believe in a

43:26

God who says that I've given you, what is the scripture,

43:33

James? Help me out. An unshakable kingdom? I'm not giving you a spirit of fear, but power, love, and discipline of sound mind.

43:41

Right. And that affected me. And I write a lot of songs. So you're right. What Terrify the

43:46

Dark is about is that we are not supposed to be living in fear of the dark, but we are a part of a kingdom that is advancing.

43:55

And we are a part of a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And I specifically meet a lot of Skillet fans because of the nature of the kind of music we play, who struggle with depression, suicidal thoughts, drug abuse, honestly, sexual abuse, all sorts of sad stories of people who are just trying to make it day by day.

44:18

And I always want to encourage them that there is a God who will fill them with power, and it is power to overcome.

44:25

So that's in a lot of my music. So as you put it, which is a better way than I would have put it, this song is not about the dark, it's about the light.

44:33

That is a great way to say it. Right. Yeah. Now, what I'm going to play, you all just released.

44:39

So there's the album version, which is what I heard initially. And then I think just last week, you all released a lyric version, sort of Christian radio version.

44:51

Do you want to make any differentiation between those two? No, it's the same song, just with less guitars, and maybe that's an okay thing.

45:04

That's so that the older folks who still run the Christian radio stations might allow it to sneak by.

45:10

Yeah, this is the less sanctified version, but it'll still work. Okay, okay.

45:15

And it's got words, which is what helps us both. That helps. Because I worked as a—I spun discs as a young person.

45:24

I worked on radio for years and years and years. And I worked at a KFLR station for about a year or so.

45:31

And I remember right in front of all the albums, there was a thing that said, um, no drums, no loud piano.

45:40

So it was loud piano. So you had to be really careful.

45:45

So yeah, this is your way of trying to sneak that one in, I think, right? All right, so I'm going to play.

45:51

This is Terrify the Dark. We're going to put it on video so that you all can follow the words. And just think about what

45:58

John just said, and I think you'll see how this song really fits into an album of hope.

46:05

Here's Terrify the Dark. It's gonna steal my peace 10 ,000 enemies they will

46:29

End up on their knees When I'm hopeless I can know there's you with me

46:37

Your light will terrify the dark I'll answer to your scars

46:53

And fear will have no place No hold upon my heart

47:01

Your light will break it in on me

47:22

Restore the room From rags to royalty

47:28

I can see you I believe you I trust you Is you

48:19

Is you Is you

48:37

Terrify the dark Your light will terrify the dark

49:35

Not the album version, but the reimagined version that just came out,

49:41

I think, last week. And as John just said, not quite as many guitars, but it still had a good drive to it.

49:48

It's got drums and loud piano. It's still good. That's right, that's right.

49:56

Well, there's a tremendous amount of biblical material that can be expanded upon there, and maybe someday we will get to do some of that kind of thing.

50:07

But I really do appreciate that kind of hopeful message. That is the kind of thing that we need.

50:14

And you were mentioning just then that a lot of people who listen to Skillet are experiencing tremendous difficulties.

50:23

I think I have all your albums now, and the older ones really did seem to have a theme of addressing people who would be facing issues of depression, addiction, and things like that.

50:40

Was I hearing that correctly? Yeah, absolutely. That's a large part of our fan base, just by nature of the kind of music we play and the age group of people that listen.

50:53

And as you know, I don't have to tell you or your audience, the world has changed so drastically in the last 20 years with the internet, social media, the things that these young people are being raised in.

51:07

I mean, they're being raised in a culture not just of absolute narcissism that is quite different than 20 years ago, but also they're being raised in a culture where the entire bedrock of philosophy has changed.

51:21

I mean, we're in a postmodern world now. These young people, they're not even trying to believe in absolute truth because they don't believe there is absolute truth.

51:31

Everything changes every single day and the anxiety that they feel about always saying the right stuff, being on the right side of an issue, kind of like finding out the right woke thing you have to say this week.

51:43

It brings on an incredible amount of anxiety for these kids. And it's just as bad in the church because in the church, all they do is bring that sort of subjectivity into their

51:59

Christian walk. So now, as you know, and all your listeners know, they read the

52:04

Bible with the same sort of... They don't read it as objective truth.

52:09

They read it with a certain sort of deconstructionism, if you want to call it that. What does this mean to me?

52:16

And we're even hearing from a lot of our leaders these days that if that's what the

52:21

Bible means, you have the Holy Spirit, so whatever the Bible means to you should be fine. So these young people are confused and because of the nature of that, we sing a lot of songs to people struggling with mental health, depression, and we just try to talk about the saving grace of Christ and the healing power of God.

52:44

That is... Man, I'll tell you, again, the things you just brought up are what we're all talking about right now.

52:50

We're all talking about what's happening in our society, and we're talking about what's happening in the church, why the church doesn't have a clear answer to what's going on, why the church has been divided, why there's so many divisions.

53:02

And that, of course, okay, that's what I deal with. That's what I do. That's what apologetics is about, and we've been taking a stand on these issues.

53:12

I mean, I wrote the... Oh, goodness, I started doing debates on those type of cultural issues as early as 2000 or so, and was speaking about it well before then.

53:22

So no one's surprised when I do something like that. But like I said earlier in the program,

53:29

I could not inhabit the space that you inhabit. I couldn't pull it off.

53:36

You have to be able to run too many filters. I'm not smart enough to run the filters.

53:44

And you have to walk such a tightrope that there's got to be...

53:50

That's why you have to have the grounding that you have to be able to survive the landmines that are all around you, folks.

54:01

So stay very, very connected to the people you're connected to, especially to the church and things like that.

54:08

That's vitally important. But yeah, I thought that's what I detected in the earlier albums was a real emphasis in that particular area, which

54:18

I'll confess I've only learned about in the last 10 years of my own life, really, because it wasn't a part of my experience as a younger person to be dealing with that.

54:29

But the church that I'm now one of the pastors at grew out of a drug rehabilitation program. So my fellow pastors have huge experience in that area.

54:40

And I'm the guy going, duh, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm learning. Yeah, yeah, that's really how that works.

54:47

So a couple other questions here. What I would call the echo, the female echo vocal in Terrify the

54:58

Dark. That's Corey? That's actually Jen, our drummer. That's Jen. Okay, okay, all right. I couldn't tell who was...

55:04

I don't have liner notes. It probably wouldn't tell me anyways, would it? Probably not these days.

55:10

Yeah, probably not. So there's a lot of... That's a standard skillet style.

55:17

The female echo to the... Is that normally, Jen? It started out as my wife years ago.

55:24

And my wife, Corey, she is a natural introvert. That's why she hasn't jumped into the picture here?

55:33

Yeah, that's exactly why. She's the intelligent one of the two of us, and she's the wise one, and she is the quiet one.

55:44

So I'm a mouthpiece for all of her good ideas. Probably works pretty well.

55:49

But yeah, Corey does some of the singing, and then Jen does a lot of the stuff.

55:55

And that is kind of a standard thing that began to become naturally a part of who Skillet was, was that the guy -girl thing.

56:02

The guy at my label, my record label, he always calls it Skillet Beauty and the Beast. Because my voice is so raspy.

56:10

He says, oh yeah, it's Beauty and the Beast. You need a little bit of beauty in there to soften that up. Okay, all right.

56:16

I just noticed it in a number of the songs, that sort of repetition type thing.

56:26

And so I wondered who that was. That would be pretty tough to do live then.

56:33

Because isn't she playing the drums? Yeah, she's playing drums. But I always tell people, it's hard to sing and play any instrument.

56:42

And once you practice it, you just gotta make sure you're really good. I mean, it sounds like I'm patting myself on the back.

56:49

I don't mean that. But it's kind of like playing. It's like doing anything. You gotta make sure you're good at doing the one thing before you do the second thing.

56:56

So you don't have to think about the first thing. Okay. So you learn to play and you rehearse.

57:02

And by the time you get good at it, you just don't think about that. And then you do your vocals, you know? Okay, all right.

57:07

I just don't know how you would mic somebody who's playing drums. Well, it does take some skill because they're quite loud.

57:16

And I'm always like, play louder! Play louder! Yeah. And I remember when you guys were going to the show last week and I said, well,

57:28

I hope y 'all don't have any technical issues. Because I would imagine any venue you go to, that is the first thing you gotta deal with.

57:34

Because they're all different. Yeah, you're always gonna have those technical issues. And after you've done it for this long, you kind of make jokes about it.

57:44

You're like, yeah, that didn't go right. Well, and I sent you a link to the video that I found on YouTube where I think,

57:56

I don't know if it was Seth or... His guitar just died.

58:02

Yeah, that's right. He was like, well, there goes that. In fact, Seth, my guitar player, he texted me during the song you were playing a second ago.

58:09

He said, man, when James was talking about the light invading the gates of hell, he said, man,

58:20

I got chills on that. So he's listening. He just texted me, by the way.

58:25

So I don't know if his guitar is working, but his internet's working right now. Well, there you go.

58:31

Well, the funny thing was, you had to cover. So all of a sudden, you're ready to go into the next song.

58:36

In fact, I think you all had started or tried to start the next song, but couldn't because he's the one supposed to be taking the lead on it, and nothing's working.

58:45

So all of a sudden, you're trying to come up with, okay, all right, how long is this going to take?

58:50

And what can I say? And the scariest thing to me is when a musician tries to preach between songs.

58:59

That's when it gets really, really frightening. I'm usually pretty good at banter.

59:05

I'll make jokes or I'll move on. I think the biggest thing I've noticed on stage is as long as they don't sense that you are nervous, then it's fine.

59:16

You can kind of get away with just about anything. It's like they say about dogs. Don't let the dog know you're nervous.

59:22

That's right. That's right. If the bear comes, don't let the bear know you're nervous. Oh, yeah.

59:27

Obviously, if the audience can tell you're having a great time and you're just like, eh, the guitar broke.

59:33

We've got another one back there. It'll take a second, but we'll get it plugged in. We'll get going. Then they're not going to mind one way or the other.

59:40

It will eventually work. We call it charm. It's like how people choose to view

59:46

Joe Biden. He doesn't need to know where he is.

59:52

If you like it, you like it. What it is. Just yesterday, he got lost as to where he was.

59:59

But that's a whole other issue. Anyway, we don't want to get everybody in trouble here. That's sort of my...

01:00:04

No, I'm just saying. I'm saying it's charm. So real quick, believe it or not, we've already burned an entire hour, and I don't want to take all your day.

01:00:16

But I wanted to introduce you to the audience. Obviously, you don't sit there and go,

01:00:24

I think every reformed person should love Skillet's music. You recognize you have a particular audience, and you have to have musical tastes that are wide enough to allow for...

01:00:37

I mean, I love Andre Segovia, and I don't know if you know who

01:00:44

Andre Segovia was, but greatest flamenco guitarist of all time.

01:00:51

I mean, the man could do with a guitar stuff that was just... He could make a guitar sound like an orchestra.

01:00:58

It was absolutely astonishing. And I actually got to see him before he died. I saw him perform at Grady Gammage at Arizona State University, and it was just astonishing.

01:01:08

So that's classical guitar, Beethoven and Bach. And I told you that I...

01:01:16

And I forgot to grab it, but I still need to... Well, wait a minute. Didn't I send you the picture of...

01:01:22

I think I sent you the picture of the UPI teletype when Keith Green died. I don't know if you did or not.

01:01:29

Well, if I didn't, I intended to. Let's put it that way. But I did tell you, I'm pretty certain at one point

01:01:35

I told you, that I have taped in one of my Bibles the UPI printout, because I was on the air the night that Keith died.

01:01:42

And it's the bulletin that came across the UPI wire about the airplane crash that killed he and his children.

01:01:50

So, you know, Keith Green and all those guys, very, very important in my life.

01:01:56

So I have a very wide range of musical tastes, and you're not trying to hit a huge, huge, wide spectrum.

01:02:08

You've got the group that you're narrowed in on. But I was very interested in how many people, when

01:02:14

I started mentioning our relationship, were like, oh, I love Skillet, I listen to Skillet, and I'm working out all the time and stuff like that.

01:02:23

So I think you may be one of the most popular bands in the United States gyms ever.

01:02:31

Good, good, I'm with that. You're helping people sweat. And I saw you were working out.

01:02:36

You said, hey, this lockdown hasn't been good for the body. Yeah, I love working out, and I love workout music.

01:02:47

And honestly, it's been a great avenue for Skillet to get our music out.

01:02:53

Because, you know, think about it. You go to the gym, you want something exciting. And Skillet also does really well in sporting events.

01:03:00

If you've watched any professional sporting event, not this year, but in other years, you've probably heard

01:03:09

Skillet songs. It's good because it's upbeat and it's rock, but there's no profanity.

01:03:14

When you think about it, you take your kids to an NFL game or a hockey game, and a lot of the rock songs have profanity.

01:03:21

They try to bleep it out. Skillet's really great for that, because in their minds, it's rock without the bad stuff.

01:03:27

So it's been a pretty great way to be able to get the music out and the gospel out.

01:03:33

And as you say, no, I'm not expecting every Reformed Christian to like. I'm actually expecting every

01:03:39

Christian of all sorts, even Armenians, should like Skillet, all right? Because I need everybody.

01:03:48

But no, it definitely has its tribe, but God has done really cool things in getting our music out to places that most people probably never heard of Christian music before, and I really love that, because Christian music affected me in a really big way growing up, in a very, very big way.

01:04:06

Right, yeah, me too. And it continues to do that. I still listen to Keith all the time. And I don't know about you, but the man was a believer for seven years, seven years.

01:04:19

And you think about some people that are just like a flashing comet across the sky, and then they're gone.

01:04:28

And what would he have done with a longer life, but that wasn't

01:04:33

God's plan. And still, even in only the seven years, I heard a maturing taking place in his music, even over that brief period of time, theologically speaking.

01:04:46

So one of his last songs was The Grace By Which I Stand, where he talks about, if it was up to me,

01:04:51

I'd fall away, but it's your grace that keeps me. And he was really maturing in his theology at that time.

01:04:59

And so when he passed, that was something else.

01:05:04

But so anyway, hey, you have your own webcast, don't you?

01:05:11

I do, yes. I have my own podcast. It's called Cooper Stuff Podcast.

01:05:19

And for anybody that hasn't watched it, if you're looking for something intellectual, like Dividing Line, it is not near like that.

01:05:28

I'm a big fan of the DL. And I'm also wearing my Just Thinking hat here.

01:05:35

That's right. There's a Just Thinking, guys. There's Daryl in Omaha. In Omaha, yeah.

01:05:40

And wait a minute. Didn't I introduce Corey to maybe my daughter as well?

01:05:49

Oh, yes, that's right. Well, let's see. I watched, what is the movie that I told you?

01:05:55

The movie? What was the film that they made on Critical Race? Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. By what standard?

01:06:02

By what standard? I've watched it three times. I love that film. And so I was telling you that I really loved it.

01:06:07

And you said, oh, yeah, my daughter, or later you had said something about Sheologians. Right. And I was like, oh, is she the girl that was in the film?

01:06:15

So yes, so Corey got introduced to Sheologians from you and from that film.

01:06:21

That's right. And so all that to say, Cooperstuff Podcast, my aim for that, it's a little similar, but it's a very dumbed down version.

01:06:31

It's like Bible truth for people who are not theologians, people who just need simple

01:06:38

Bible truth. If you're confused about what in the world is happening in the world, I just I try to bring it back down to a basic truth.

01:06:46

This is what it means to live for Jesus, because as you know, right now, we're being told every day opposite things that it means to live for Jesus.

01:06:55

Just this past week, right? When John MacArthur opened his church.

01:07:01

Well, this is what it means. And other people say, no, it's not. You got to love your neighbor by not going to church.

01:07:06

You're hearing two different things constantly. Right. And I always try to bring because my audience tends to be younger and again, not highly theological, just to bring it back down to the simple truth.

01:07:19

This is what it means to live for Jesus. And if you're confused about all these things, don't try to be the social justice warrior on the front lines without understanding what it is that you're standing up for.

01:07:32

I think, unfortunately, as you've said in your program, I do think that there's a lot of Christians being co -opted into fighting for things that I think they would not want to be fighting for if they understood what they meant.

01:07:47

Right. And I think that that's something that the Church needs to be warned about. So I try to do that if I can.

01:07:53

It's only once a week on Mondays, so you can get on iTunes, whatever, Cooper Stuff Podcast. Excellent.

01:07:59

All right. So we'll want to let people know about that. They can find you on the web, obviously.

01:08:04

You have a website. You have a, I guess you'd call it the old -style fan club called the

01:08:12

Panheads. In fact, I forgot to ask you, would you? I know you've done this 10 ,000 times before, I'm sorry, but could you go ahead and explain to us the deep biblical theological background to the name

01:08:25

Skillet? Oh gosh. All it is is that when we first got started, my pastor—well, let me rewind.

01:08:32

When we first got started, there was probably two or three Christian bands within the same small church.

01:08:39

We only had about 200 people at the church. And my pastor said, hey, John, I think that you would go good with this other guitar player from a different band, not the band that I was in, but from a different one.

01:08:50

He said, you guys should start a side project and write some songs. And you could call it

01:08:56

Skillet. It would be like taking all these different ingredients and throwing it all in a big skillet and see what happens.

01:09:02

And we can do outreach for the church, you know? Go on college campus and play outreach shows and preach the gospel.

01:09:08

And so I was like, yeah, whatever. So we called it Skillet, and I did not think it would last long, and it did.

01:09:15

I'm the only original member left, so I'm stuck with this name that I never really liked or cared about.

01:09:23

It didn't matter to me, whatever. That's exactly what happened with Sheologians. My daughter will tell you.

01:09:29

They were just sitting around at the Apologia Studios, and I think it was Pastor Luke that just sort of said, you're

01:09:35

Sheologians! And it stuck, and now, every day, she has to explain this to people.

01:09:42

And it's like, oh. The difference is that that's an awesome name. You can't explain that.

01:09:49

Everybody knows what that means. It's theologians, including girls. Well, I should mention, about three weeks ago,

01:09:58

I sent you a picture of a shirt. It was sort of a

01:10:03

Hawaiian -type shirt, and down here it said Skillet on it. And it was your artwork.

01:10:10

It was the band's logo. But something didn't seem right about it, because there was no way

01:10:16

I could ever see you being caught dead in this shirt. Oh no, it was ugly.

01:10:24

So I sent it to you, and you're like, yep, nope, that's not us. So here

01:10:30

I am. I'm on Facebook, and Facebook is giving me an ad for a shirt.

01:10:37

Now, I had bought some summer shirts. And I'm older than you, so I do wear shirts you wouldn't be caught dead in.

01:10:45

And it's okay, because I'm an old man. But somehow they know

01:10:50

I'm listening to Skillet, and I've bought shirts. And all of a sudden, there's a Skillet shirt from who knows where on Facebook.

01:10:58

If that isn't frightening, I really don't know what is. That's funny. They are listening, man.

01:11:04

They are listening to us right now. I'd like to say hi to Bob, the NSA agent whose job it is to follow us all the time.

01:11:12

God bless you, Bob. Repent and believe. So anyway. There you go. John, something tells me this won't be the last time that we get to do something like this.

01:11:21

At least, I hope so. I certainly hope that you all... Obviously, your hope is to get back on the road again, right?

01:11:30

I do definitely hope to get back on the road again at some point. But I will say, I'm really enjoying being home, besides the financial part.

01:11:41

But I get to be at church. This is the most I've ever been at church for one period for 20 years.

01:11:47

Are they tired of you yet? I hope not. I'm really enjoying that.

01:11:54

I began getting together with a young men's group of just guys and doing what

01:12:01

I can do to help teach them what it means to be a man. And you know what the Bible says about manhood, about who

01:12:07

God's called us to be. And being a part of a church is so wonderful. We've already talked about it three times, but I'll leave you with one more.

01:12:15

Anybody listening that loves Jesus and loves the Word of God, but is not a part of a church, you're missing out on how wonderful it is.

01:12:25

Obviously, it's God's command to us anyway. But it's so wonderful being a part of God's people and being fed and being used by God.

01:12:33

So I have to be honest. I hope to get back on the road. But I am really enjoying being home.

01:12:39

I really love it. And something tells me that Corey probably is enjoying it too. He definitely is enjoying it.

01:12:46

If she's anything like my wife Kelly, my wife lost her job thanks to the panic of 2020.

01:12:55

And so she has just been hitting the house like, I don't know what, the number of little projects, and this needs to go over there.

01:13:04

And I've wanted to do this for the past five years, and now I'm going to get it done. And she's just going at it.

01:13:10

And I just think that's how ladies are with their houses. I'll see her run around the house, and she's humming some of the praise songs from church and stuff like that.

01:13:21

And I love it. I think it's awesome. But I also have not been traveling exactly the same as you.

01:13:30

So for the exact same reason, but I'm missing all that. John Cooper, first of all,

01:13:36

I've thanked you many times for pushing me up many a mountain, for getting me to my fastest speed on a certain ride somewhere or the other or a run.

01:13:48

You were encouraging me on the fast. I ran my fastest 10K last weekend that I've run in over two years.

01:13:55

And so I thank you for that. We haven't had a chance to actually sit down yet.

01:14:01

I am really looking forward someday. You and Corey and me and Kelly, I think it's going to be a blast.

01:14:08

And obviously Seth and Jen, too, really want to get together. What you said earlier about postmillennialism now makes you the official rock band of Apologia Church.

01:14:17

Just thought you might want to know that. So you will be extremely popular amongst everybody there once they get a chance to see this.

01:14:26

But I would encourage everyone in our audience to be praying for you and for the band and your witness and your consistency.

01:14:35

You do have opportunities of doing things a lot of us don't get the opportunities of doing, and therefore having that solid foundation, that solid message is a vitally important thing for the

01:14:46

Kingdom. And those of us who are already Skillet fans, thank you for your hard work and your encouragement, and we look forward to what the

01:14:55

Lord's going to be doing with you in the future. And I just have really gotten to enjoy being your friend and your brother.

01:15:02

So I'm looking forward to more of that, too. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, James. And likewise,

01:15:08

I love getting to chat with you, and it's good to be able to have a source whenever I'm running something like this.

01:15:14

This doesn't make sense. Hey, and I've told you, if you ever run into a situation where you don't contact me,

01:15:22

I'm going to be very, very unhappy and displeased, and I'll frown on the dividing line. So don't do that.

01:15:29

All right, you got it. We have each other's numbers, and let's keep it up. So thank you so much for spending time with us.

01:15:35

Thank you, Corey, for getting him all set up, even though you're hiding off to the side. She's actually not in here now, but she would at least say something.

01:15:45

I appreciate her doing that for you, and I'm sure we'll be doing this again. Hey, God bless, John. Thank you so much.

01:15:52

Great chatting. All right, God bless. Thank you, man. All right. All right. Super duper.

01:15:57

Thank you very, very much to John Cooper for joining us for an hour and 15 minutes.

01:16:02

That's a lot of time, but hey, it's COVID season, so what can I say? Only one thing to mention before we sign off.

01:16:10

I forgot to ask, but are we able to do something tomorrow? You say yes.

01:16:17

Okay. I really would like to do a program tomorrow. That would make,

01:16:23

I think, four this week. Yeah, yeah, this would make four. So, you need to be afternoon?

01:16:30

Okay, that's fine. I do want to do a program tomorrow, and if I have enough time, what

01:16:37

I would like to do is specifically, at least one of the topics

01:16:43

I want to address will be the subject of the immaculate conception of Mary in Roman Catholic theology.

01:16:54

We have addressed this issue many times in the past, but it is being promoted within certain realms, within non -Catholic circles, and I think we need to once again remind people that there are doctrines of men that require us to fundamentally twist the history of the church, and when we do that there, we end up undercutting our ability to defend the core truths of the faith, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, the inspiration of Scripture.

01:17:34

And so, one of the things I'd like to do is to address that particular issue. There might be some other things.

01:17:39

I just don't know if I'm going to have enough time between now and tomorrow to do a proper job, but I wanted to get a little bit more in tomorrow as far as teaching is concerned, so we will do a program when it's 116 degrees in the shade outside tomorrow.

01:17:56

So, assuming that the electricity stays on, it's 117 at Phoenix right now.

01:18:03

That's, that's, that's, I mean, that's what Sky Harbor is. Oh, your app goes to Peoria?

01:18:11

Yeah, Phoenix is only showing, yeah, it says 117. Mine says 115. So, after 110, folks, it doesn't really matter all that much.

01:18:21

Though I will admit, once it's 115 above, then it really, that's when, if you forgot anything at all in your car that's plastic, it's done.

01:18:33

It's over. You won't even recognize it. Because honestly, honestly, now my car, thankfully, is white.

01:18:40

His truck is not. And so, yeah, special film,

01:18:47

I don't, I don't care. In the olden days, you could get into a, it was 115 outside, it'd be 155 in the car, minimally.

01:18:57

And it can get warmer than that, depending on which direction your car is facing. Anyhow, we will see you all tomorrow.