New Streaming Technology, Homosexuality & American Culture, and Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3202. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Welcome to the dividing line.

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It should be a dividing line that if you are listening live today, this evening, should sound unlike any dividing line you have ever heard before.

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And specifically that is because we took the great leap today and we are now live streaming in MP3 format.

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MP3 format, that means that you are actually hearing something that, well, closely resembles reality, which will make the callers sound better.

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They'll be more understandable. The music should sound a whole lot better. And I was gonna say

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I should even sound better, but I don't think any advance in technology would really be able to accomplish anything like that.

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So we are MP3 live streaming today. An extremely intelligent

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Furby in Canada is manning the controls up there. Remember Furbies, those little things that sound real strange, things like that?

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Well, we know a Furby that actually runs a website and is allowing us to live stream that website.

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That's how we do it. I mean, we do things on a shoestring, folks, and if we can find a Furby that likes us, that's great.

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That's exactly what we will use. Actually, it's just to protect the real person's identity, but since he likes

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Furbies, I figured he'd appreciate that. Anyway, we are going with MP3 technology.

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Now, I know there's gonna be some of you going, now wait a minute. We did it the old way.

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We are traditionalists. So you're sitting there with your 1999 version of real audio, which by the way is what

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I use, because the stuff they came out with ever since then is so incredibly invasive.

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It like takes over your entire computer, tries to run your life. You're sitting there with your 1999 version of real audio and it's not working right.

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So, the Furby man up in Canada has put together a website and it's, oh wait a minute,

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I for some reason lost the actual URL. I'm hoping maybe it's on our website to click to go to his.

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He put together a webpage that goes through the various programs such as Winamp that will allow you to listen to streaming

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MP3. When we tested this earlier today, I used my Music Match jukebox, which

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I'm gonna tell you, I'm not gonna get any kickbacks for this. I don't know who owns the company, anything else, but one program that I purchased, and I purchased the lifetime version, you know, the expensive one.

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One program that I've purchased, other than my Christian programs, that absolutely

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I have gotten every bit of money out of has been Music Match jukebox.

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That is the best program. It runs my MP3 players. It creates MP3 discs for me.

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It manages a 3 ,000 MP3 library. It's just the best ever found and it's what

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I would be using if I were listening myself, which would be sort of silly, but that's what I would be using. So, Music Match jukebox,

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Winamp, and there was another one on there. I forget what it was. Now, the only thing that's gonna freak me out about all this is that I'm discovering that, however this works, everyone in the channel is 90 seconds behind me.

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Okay, I know a real player will actually play this stuff, but the old stuff won't. Anyways, 90 seconds behind me.

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So, what I see in the channel is everything that took place 90 seconds ago.

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So, someone was just saying, I am not a Furby. Now, that was 90 seconds ago.

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So, I can always tell, I can sort of see history just sort of following me along. It's sort of like that one movie where they sort of got to sync with history type thing.

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It's a very strange, very strange thing. But anyway, yeah, see, there's folks talking about the 90 second lag in channel right now.

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That's gonna be strange for me. I'm gonna sort of have to keep my eyes toward the stuff that sort of scrolled by about 90 seconds ago, and then we'll be right in.

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Oh, iTunes is what it's called. Thank you. Well, that's one of them. That's for Macs though. If you've got a

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Mac, you know, well, I'm not gonna say anything. So, anyway, this is,

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I think it's gonna, you know, I want to have some folks on in the future. We've had Steve Camp on in the past. It would have been so neat to do the

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Steve Camp show we did on Keith Green's death and his ministry and his music.

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This way, because it would have sounded great. Now, you could then download the

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MP3 later and listen to it, and it would have sounded great then, but it would be neat in the live streaming for it to sound considerably better.

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Now, obviously, when you download the MP3, it'll still sound even better because it's not streaming, but anyway.

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So, those of you who are, you know, somewhat, you know, unhappy that we went and made a change, just try to live with it for a while.

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Get used to the advances in technology, and you'll learn to love it as well, and all will be well, and it'll be great, and it'll be fun, and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

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So, welcome to the new and improved, and I think much more professionally sounding edition of the

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Dividing Line. Hey, what did you do with my duct tape? Well, it was professionally sounding until that happened

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I gotta find a way to... I'm getting some deep questions in channel.

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Who is Mr. X? What is the Matrix? Thank you all very much for those deep theological questions.

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The answer to both may be more related than we know, but all

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I can say is Mr. X should have taken the blue pill. That'll come out next week, folks.

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Some of you listening know what we're talking about. That is very, very funny.

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Where in the world am I here? I was going to look at something. Oh, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number for you to get involved today.

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If you would like to be one of the first people on the new high -powered, super -sounding

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Dividing Line broadcast so that your voice will sound much better, then you will all be able to join us at that particular point in time.

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Oh no, re -buffering. That's a terrible thing. I don't have any control over that.

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877 -753 -3341 One topic that certainly

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I think a number of you are aware of that I thought we would start off with as Uh -oh,

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I forgot to un -forward my phone again. Yep, yep, I forgot to un -forward my phone again.

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So when someone's going to call in here... I got it. Okay, I un -forwarded.

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There we go. Is this sort of like what they do in KFYI where you can hear the guy in the booth, but he sounds like he's like 40 miles away or something like that?

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Is that what it's going to be? Yeah, okay, uh -huh.

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You can just barely hear the dialogue going by. You realize... I thought it would be really cool for effect.

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But we don't have to do that. Actually, the way you're talking right now scares me.

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We have bailing wire, chewing gum, duct tape, and we know how to put it together.

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Keep it that way. And if it doesn't work, we use a little rope. Yeah, who, on me?

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Sometimes that's tempting. It's been real tempting on this side of the wall too, big guy. Anyways...

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Yes, Lord bless you. Say, Lord bless your ministry. That's a blast from the past.

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Anyway, it's certainly something I've been thinking about as far as getting a topic going here, as people line up on the big radio show today.

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Actually, it's a fairly serious topic and it tends to get my... It gets me a little bit on the unhappy side,

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I will admit. And it gets my dander up. Basically, if you've been listening to...

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I'm trying to be serious here. And then there's the offer is going, listen to Rich's pillow talk voice.

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That's what scared me too. That's exactly what I was thinking too. That sort of sounds like...

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What was that back when I was... I used to do radio. And I worked six to midnight, Monday to Friday, noon to six on Saturdays on KWAO FM 106 .3,

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the home of the great entertainers in Sun City, Arizona. And we would have...

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You've got the night town. Man, that guy had a...

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There were actually two of them. One spun off from the other. Moody started one. One spun off and you had night sounds.

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And he could talk like this forever and a day. And it was just like, man, you know he doesn't talk like that normally.

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It was just so weird and it would sort of put you to sleep. So we're not going to do that.

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You could turn the bass way up on my mic and make me sound really like... Oh, there you go.

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See, just... There you go. I bet you that's how they did that. You know, turn that off. You know what? The night sound guy really sounded like this.

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But then they did the thing with... It's all electronic. I'm trying to get serious here. I'm going to have to turn off the...

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I'm going to have to just turn off the screen here before I'm going to be able to get serious here.

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You've got the deep theology of AOMNs .org. It's been a long day for you, hasn't it?

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A real long day for you. Oh, goodness. You know, see, you're tempting me to talk about what has us all so zany anyways.

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You know, because, I mean, the big news that the Iranian...

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The Iraqi information minister is converting to Catholicism is really hard to keep under... Oh, did I say that?

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Oh, I'm sorry. Restrain thyself, brother. Yeah, I know.

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I'm sorry. I will attempt to do so. It's just hard. It's just very, very difficult not to point those things out.

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Don't worry, folks. If you don't know what we're talking about, we'll talk about it next week. You just have to... That's called a teaser.

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You get to tune in next week. All right. I'm taking control of the program now and going to attempt to discuss something very serious now.

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Take a deep breath. And I am talking about what is going on in the public discourse in our nation, and specifically what has taken place in regards to Senator Rick Santorum.

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No, I am not waxing political today. I would not do that. But I am very concerned about the atmosphere that has been again demonstrated by what has taken place over the course of the past couple of days.

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Now, if you've been living in a lead mine someplace, or you're off playing with the deck of cards of Iraqi leaders that we're still tracking down.

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We got Tariq Aziz a few hours ago. Maybe you're not aware, but on Monday the news broke that in a discussion of, as I recall, a

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Texas court case, the Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum had in essence made the following argument.

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And that is that if the government does not have interest or authority to regulate consensual, and every time

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I've seen this they have put in brackets gay or homosexual sex. It was about sodomy laws in Texas.

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Then he made the argument if he's responding to an argument with an argument. If the argument is that the government does not have authority to do so, there is no interest on the part of the

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United States government to regulate sexual behavior between consenting adults or between whatever goes on inside of a home, then there are a number of other things that the government then has no business regulating.

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And he discussed bigamy, polygamy, incest and adultery, at least those four, maybe some more.

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And now this is an argument that I have made many times myself, within the context of dealing with those who promote the homosexual lifestyle, as far as the argumentation that they themselves use.

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They are using arguments that a number of years ago were used to defend other sexually questionable, morally questionable behaviors.

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And on that same basis, now that homosexuality has become the privileged class, that you cannot even begin to question.

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I mean just last night I happened to unfortunately turn on one of the major network news.

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They said they were going to be talking about it. I sat down and listened to it. And of course it was spun as horribly as possible.

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There was no discussion of the validity, the logical accuracy or anything else of what

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Santorum said. Most of the time was given to his opponents to call for his resignation and all the rest of the stuff.

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Evidently you simply cannot discuss this issue and they seemingly feel that's a good thing.

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But in watching it there was no discussion of whether the statements are actually logically true or not.

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And folks, it doesn't matter. It does not matter in our society today whether something is true or false.

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The point is if you open your mouth and say something that could be conceived as being offensive, even if it is true, then you are in deep trouble.

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Now there is absolutely no parallel at all. No parallel at all to what happened with Trent Lott.

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None whatsoever. I mean one was at a birthday party, this was to a reporter, but that's not in a parallel either.

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But as far as the actual issue is concerned and the reaction to it, what we're seeing is the fact that within our society, those who want to promote godlessness and a rebellion against God's law, don't expect them to function on the basis of truth.

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Don't expect them to be fair. Don't expect them to engage these issues as if they really believe these things.

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Instead, expect this kind of behavior where it is merely a matter of screaming and yelling and demanding,

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I have been offended, therefore you should not be a leader because you have offended me.

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Now I'm offended by them. I've been offended by many things they've said.

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I am offended when I hear people thinking illogically. People who are irrational offend me.

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Should I therefore, do I have some super right to silence those who are irrational?

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If not, why not? This is what we're facing in our society and it is not only an issue of free speech, but it goes to the very level of dialogue itself.

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There is no level of dialogue because dialogue is not even desired by these people.

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I've sought to get pro -abortionists to do debates and it is next to impossible to get these people to actually come out in a moderated scholarly context.

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Some of you may recall what happened about a year ago now when we had the debates on WMCA back when

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Andy Anderson was still alive and we had a United Methodist minister and I forget what group the other guy was from, but we did two radio debates on the subjects of abortion and homosexuality.

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One guy hung up on us and the other guy wasn't even there as an opponent in essence.

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But we had to work hard to get them and like I said, the one didn't even stick around the whole time. It is very difficult to get these people to engage in any type of dialogue based on truth at all.

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Because they realize, especially the pro -abortionists realize, that they simply, that is not for their benefit.

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The facts are so deeply against them and the arguments so compelling against them that it is their only way of promoting their agenda is by utterly silencing the opposition.

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Utterly silencing the opposition. That's the only way they can survive. So they will avoid the very kind of dialogue and they must exist merely upon the repetition of platitudes and normally untrue platitudes, but that's how they promote their position.

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That's what we are facing in this land and what it reminded me of as I thought about it was the

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Lord saw fit to bless the military efforts of this nation in the recent war.

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I mean, it hasn't been officially said to be over, but for all intents and purposes it seems to be.

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I know that our soldiers are still in Iraq and they are still in harm's way, but as far as there being any organized military opposition, that's pretty much over with.

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The Lord blessed us and look, I was raised to be a patriotic guy and I can't help but watch the coverage and go, man, that's pretty amazing what we did.

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I don't know what the final numbers are going to be, but watching the air attacks and the accuracy of the munitions and everything else that we did,

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I think that on certain levels we have a lot to be proud of in the limitation of civilian casualties, the care that we took of those once we swept through an area, etc.,

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etc., and I think the comparison of casualties between the two sides is going to be well above 1 ,000 to 1.

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It really is and I go, wow, that's amazing, that's something else.

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But then I'm reminded by this kind of situation in regards to Rick Santorum and his comments, that this is still a society, that its greatness on the battlefield is primarily what

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I would call inertia from our great past, and that those people who are attacking

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Rick Santorum, those people who are seeking to, for example, make sure that we do not have righteous judges, that we do not have judges who would in any way, shape, or form protect human life, or have a conservative, biblically grounded view of human life, those people are still very much here.

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They are similar to ticks that suck the blood out of a larger animal and might eventually kill it through disease and weakness.

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But they're still here and they are still very much intent upon fulfilling

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Romans 1 .32 and their encouragement of others to engage in lifestyles that are directly opposite to God's will and this nation is still under the judgment of God.

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This nation is still very much deserving of further judgment from God because let's face it, despite 9 -1 -1 and all the discussions of God bless

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America, we've gone directly back to the exact same kinds of behaviors that we have had all along.

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Hi Josh, this is... sorry. We've gone directly back to the very same kinds of behaviors that we've had all along.

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There's been no repentance. If anything, it's been the kind of repentance that God detests because it's been hypocritical.

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We wave our flag, God bless America, but don't you dare talk about repentance. Don't you dare talk about sin or we'll sue you.

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So that's what it's reminded me of, is that we still face a tremendous situation in our land.

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We need to pray for this land. We need to pray that God will bring repentance.

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And we need to recognize that if we're going to count the cost, the cost may be going up all the time.

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I don't know how long we're going to be able to speak the truth without immediately being in danger of retribution from those who have set up evil as a privileged class.

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That truly is what we are facing, I think, in this nation.

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And so we may want to feel good about what the military did.

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But isn't it interesting, most of the folks in that military are not raving liberals. I think

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I've mentioned that I've sort of adopted two marine majors who are over in Kuwait and Iraq.

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And I get regular reports from them as to how they're doing. And there's some good Christian men over there, no two ways about it.

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But we look at that and then this has sort of brought me back to reality. And that is that there is still a very large number of people in this nation who wish to gut this nation of its freedoms and of its history and of the foundations upon which we stand.

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So it is somewhat of a sobering thought. 877 -753 -3341,

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I don't see anything on the board as to anyone joining us. Maybe some folks have felt some level of anonymity in the real audio format in that you sort of felt that, well, my voice isn't so clear that people are going to know who

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I am. Maybe that's why folks aren't calling in today. I don't know. But 877 -753 -3341,

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I mean, if nobody calls in, then eventually I'm going to keep talking about things I shouldn't be talking about, actually.

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That's a very dangerous thing, of course. I just got an email from Michael Fallon who's listening out in Florida.

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Mike, of course, is the man who those of you who have enjoyed our past cruises and those many of you who are going to be enjoying the next cruise.

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The only person to thank for that is not me. It's Michael Fallon is the man who does the work.

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Now, you know, Rich helps with the website, and I do some of that stuff too, and I've updated the website. But Michael Fallon is the man, and he just wrote to me and said, pretty scary, it kind of sounds like you're sitting underneath my desk with a

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Bose Soundwave system. That would be scary.

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I'm just glad you found your desk, Mike. Some of you could send me emails.

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I get them right here. If they're short, they might get read. I should set up.

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That's what I should do. I should set up an on, you know, they do this on KFYI and places like that around here.

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I should set up an on -air email account so that you could send me.

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Someone's trying to call, but the line is busy. That's strange. Well, I think we have one call coming in right now, and once he processes that one, you should be able to get over that.

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Yeah, Pete's checking under his desk. No, Pete, I'm not there, but it might be a mad Furby, so be careful.

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Well, thanks for writing, Mike. I appreciate that. To those of you who have my email address, the problem is if I set that up, man, the emails just, it's a sad and bad thing.

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But we'll think about how we could possibly do that. Maybe make it something that I only deal with, you know, during the program or something.

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I don't know. That would be sort of fun. Anyhow, let's see. Where do I store this one here? I think

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I'll put it under humorous. There we go, humorous. That's sort of funny. Anyway, 877 -753 -3341.

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I hear our intrepid call screener talking with someone out there, but it may not even be someone who's doing that.

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Oh, by the way, I forgot to finish mentioning something about the cruise. Michael Fallon's email reminded me of that.

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I know we've talked about it before, and you're probably not, some of you are going, ah, heard all about it.

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Let me just mention it. For those of you who just landed from Mars, we have, by God's blessing, the ability to go on a cruise, an apologetics cruise, a

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Christian fellowship cruise, December 6th through 13th, at rates that, quite simply,

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I don't think will ever be seen again, on an awesome ship,

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Holland America's Zondam, five -star accommodations, just incredible stuff.

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I mean, I've been talking to some folks that are going, a bunch of folks from the ministry, from the chat channel are going.

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It's going to be a great, great time. And I was talking to someone there, and some of them who have some of the lower, lower -cost cabins.

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And we're talking, right now we're selling cabins for $300 that are going for $1 ,600 for everybody else.

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That's how much of a break we managed to lock in. And, again, thank Michael Fallon for that. I had nothing to do with it.

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He did it. But we have a chance to do something here that, you know,

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I just can't imagine that we're going to be able to do much like this in the future. We're going to do more cruises in the future, but it's not going to be this cheap.

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It can't be. It's just amazing what we were able to do. And so the rates are not going to change.

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We've locked them in. However, availability will. And so I know of three or four folks that are really thinking about it because, man, but it's real close to Christmas.

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Well, this will be a great thing to do for Christmas. I mean, yeah, I know it's beforehand. But you just can't imagine how nice.

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This is the nicest ship we've ever gone on. I've been telling folks, people getting the lowest level cabins are going to have bigger cabins than I've ever had on any of the previous three ones, three cruises we've done.

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So, folks, it is a deal like we've never, ever had before.

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It's truly awesome. And I really hope that those of you who have been thinking about it will give it some real consideration, get a hold of Mike.

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We've been keeping him real busy recently, no two ways about it, and I think he's thankful for that. Give him a call.

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The number's on the website. I updated the thing, gave you the current prices, showed you what our group rate was, which was still really good, and so on and so forth.

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So take a look at that and really consider it because some great folks could be going along.

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And to Pete's wife, you really can afford it. Oh, did

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I read that right? Pete's wife, you really can afford it. But it's really hard to read.

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I'm sorry. I just got something in my eye, Pete. I'm sorry. I'm trying to help you out there. Just sell your

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Furby collection, dude. You'll be fine. Man, quit whining. I need to be kind to him,

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I guess. Are we ready for a break? I knew we were ready for a break. I knew we were. Here comes that beautiful, listen to this music and how different it sounds.

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Progress is not an easy way. It's a journey to the sun day by day.

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Following Jesus is a walk of praise. Answering those who claim that only the

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King James Version is the word of God, James White, in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

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Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

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You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin

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.org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free?

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A new cult? Secularism? False prophecy scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

32:58

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

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In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

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It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very

33:19

Gospel itself. In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

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Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the Gospel preached by the

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Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org.

33:46

More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils.

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They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements. And many Evangelicals are finding the history, tradition, and grandeur of the

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Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

34:12

Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book,

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The Roman Catholic Controversy, is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture, the papacy, the mass, purgatory and indulgences, and Marian doctrine.

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James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the

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Gospel itself that cannot be ignored. Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at aomen .org.

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the

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Gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

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The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

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Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00.

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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

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You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE. If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

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where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

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And welcome back to Dividing Line. My name is James White. We are having technical difficulties, not with the stream.

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The stream sounds great. Everything's going well there. For some reason our 800 number ain't working.

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Well, it's an 877 number. So our first caller, whose name I do not know. Oh, it is back now?

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Oh, okay. Well, someone's calling and I think he's calling long distance. So we're going to go to him quickly, even though I'm...

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Dave! We're going to go to Dave very quickly because Dave, unless Dave needs a tax loophole or something, or he's on a cell phone that has free long distance and it's really no big deal anymore.

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Dave, welcome to the program. Thanks, Dr. White, and I am on a cell phone. I've got a bazillion minutes, so it's not an issue.

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Okay, well then we'll just take you back off and I'll go back to yammering. No, okay. What can we do for you,

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Dave? I wanted to ask you a question about teaching that is very prevalent in Christendom throughout many different denominations.

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I've heard preachers preach it who I otherwise consider really solid, but I think the

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Scripture is quite clear to the contrary. And that teaching is that when Jesus was on the cross, the

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Father separated himself from Jesus. A separation of God the

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Father from God the Son. And to me, Scripture is very clear in showing that by virtue of Jesus' humanity, he may have felt abandonment, that indeed the

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Trinity was not split and indeed cannot be. And Jesus' cry as recorded in the

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Gospels of Matthew and Mark, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me, was indeed a declaration not that God had forsaken him, but that he had fulfilled the prophecies of Psalm 22.

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I just want to get your take on that. Yeah, you know, someone called on that just a few weeks ago.

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And what I did is I read the note from page 217 of my book,

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The Forgotten Trinity, which states the words of Jesus of Matthew 2746 have come in from many kinds of interpretation.

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Unfortunately, many of the theories have compromised the Bible's teaching on the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father was never separated from or abandoned the

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Son. This truth is clear from many sources. Jesus uses the second person speaking to the Father, why have you forsaken me, rather than why did he forsake me, as if the

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Father is no longer present. Immediately on the heels of the statement, Jesus speaks to the Father, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit, showing no sense of separation.

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Whatever else Jesus was saying, he was not saying that at the very time of his ultimate obedience to the Father, the Father abandoned him.

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Rather, it seems much more logical to see this as a quotation of Psalm 22 that is meant to call to mind all of that Psalm, which would include the victory of verses 19 and following, as well as verse 24, which states,

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For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, neither has he hidden his face from him.

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When he cried to him for help, he heard. So that sounds like the footnote that I have there is pretty much a summary of exactly what you were saying.

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And I'm not sure if you had seen that in my book or not, but it is very common, unfortunately, as you pointed out, especially this time of year, especially last

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Sunday or the Sunday before that, to hear a lot of sermons based upon this idea of this separation.

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And I don't hear a lot of folks talking about it in the sense that I don't hear it being challenged a lot.

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And so I think it's sort of traditional. We've heard it over and over and over again, and therefore we don't think about the fact that Christ is here doing the very will of the

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Father and hence the idea of all this separation, God turning his back on the

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Son and these things, sounds real nice, but I don't know of any biblical basis for it. It certainly isn't to be found in Matthew 27 or in the citation of Psalm 22 because I think that's just missing the point of what

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Psalm 22 is all about. Right. And I guess I agree with everything you just said. I've just been curious because I've heard some very prominent

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Christian teachers who otherwise are very solid doctrinally teach this. Well, remember, just because someone is very sound as far as, let's use a name like an

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R .C. Sproul, it doesn't follow that that particular issue is one that has ever been raised either in his theological education or a challenge been given to him within a certain context.

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There's two reasons why I've addressed it, and the first reason was I had a professor in Bible college.

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He has gone to be with the Lord, but I learned a tremendous amount from him, Dr. D .C. Martin, and he raised that issue, and he challenged the common use of that preaching technique and that preaching example in Bible college, and it bothered me when he first did so for the reason that, again,

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I was accustomed to hearing it. So he sort of gored my tradition, but he liked goring traditions, and I'm awful glad that he did.

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The other reason is it does raise Christological concerns. It raises inter -Trinitarian issues, and that's an area that obviously

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I'm concerned about and try to deal with, and if you didn't have anyone do that in your theological education, which is a lot of stuff to talk about, obviously, in the theological education.

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You don't cover it all, and if you're not dealing with the area of Trinitarian theology, it may not come up, so there's all sorts of areas.

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People call me all the time, and I go, I never thought about that. So that's why we're a body and not individuals, and so I just am not familiar with a lot of discussions of it, and that's probably why.

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In fact, I have recently got a copy of the Reformation Study Bible, who R .C.

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Sproul is the general editor, and the note actually on Psalm 22, 1, talks that David, who wrote

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Psalm 22, experienced only a partial separation from God, which was a full separation in the case of Jesus, and I just thought, wow, how can they miss the mark that badly?

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They don't think through the theological implications, like you said, that if he was separated from the

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Father, well, was Jesus still God? In which case, if he was, then there were two gods. If not, then he's not the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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Or it could fall into the Gnostic era of the early church, that the deity aspect of Christ leaves, and that's why

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Jesus says what he says upon the cross and things like that. Yeah, it really is a matter of just being consistent, but again,

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I think this is an illustration of what happens when there is a tradition that we've heard over and over and over and over again, and we just simply accept it.

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I mean, I've had people look at me very strangely when I have even questioned this, again, because they've heard it before.

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Right, and I was taught that, both growing up in the church and shortly after I was saved, and it just never sat well with me.

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I accepted it because the people that taught it to me were solid, but it just never sat well with me that, you know, if God the

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Father can forsake his only begotten Son, well, how could I, as an adopted son, ever trust him not to forsake me?

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And then when I, you know, studied it and saw that, you know, exactly as Psalm 22 states, that he didn't despise the affliction of the afflicted, and when he cried to him for help he heard,

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I just, you know, praise the Lord, he is indeed always faithful. Well, you know, it's interesting, that use of the

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Psalm, I think, is really the key. And, in fact, we've had someone in channel that is commenting on this, and made the comment that Christ is not being viewed on the cross as an obedient son, but as, well, it's mistyped, which is one of this guy's problems, but as the sinner who has transgressed the law of God, is he not?

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And I don't know that I would follow that argument in that fashion.

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It says he is speaking under the weight of God's wrath. Well, maybe, but again, the fact remains that the psalmist of Psalm 22, this is a citation of Psalm 22.

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What is Psalm 22 about? How does it end? And remember, when people bring out the

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Psalms, it's like us quoting, you know, if I say something along the lines of amazing grace, how sweet the sound,

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I don't need to finish that, because everyone knows the words of amazing grace. Same thing with the

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Jews. You didn't have to quote the whole Psalm to invoke the meaning of the Psalm. And the

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Psalm is a Psalm of vindication. It shows, yes, the suffering servant at the beginning, but that servant becomes vindicated.

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And I think that is what we have going on in Jesus' citation of the Psalm there. I just do not see any of the inspired writers making the application that many non -inspired writers have made in the years afterwards.

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Yeah, absolutely. In fact, in John 16, Jesus himself, when he's speaking to his disciples, he tells me, he says, behold, an hour is coming and has already come for you to be scattered each to his own home and to leave me alone, and yet I am not alone because the

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Father is with me. Even ahead of time, Jesus is saying, hey, you guys all might split, but the

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Father is still with you. The Father is going to be with me. That's very true. Praise God. That's just so reassuring to me. It is. It is.

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Very much so. Well, thank you, sir, for your call today. Thank you. And you're the first one to be MP3 streamed.

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Hey, that's quite an honor. I'm really considering going on that cruise with you in December. I'm real excited about it.

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It's going to be a great time. It'll be a wonderful time. It really will be. All right, thanks a lot. God bless.

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All right, let's go ahead. We have now all the phone lines start lighting up, and we only have 12 minutes left.

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Let's go ahead and talk with Dyson. Oh, wait a minute. Before we bring Dyson up, I saw this.

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I even took the time to cut and paste it, put it into a note on my screen. Someone that has a certain level of authority said, hey,

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I want to plug, and so I have to read this. This portion of the program was made possible by Pete's Adopt -A -Furby

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Fund. Do you have space in your closet? Do you want to hear a friendly voice babbling from inside in the wee hours of the evening?

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And then it ended there. So I don't know how to put you in touch with Pete's Adopt -A -Furby

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Fund, but he insisted that I say that, and so I did.

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You know, I really don't think R .C. Sproul has to put up with this kind of thing, but hey, what can I say? Now we can go ahead and talk with Dyson.

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Dyson in Salt Lake City. I'm sorry about that, Dyson, but it's just part of the job, you know?

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Oh, it's okay. Yes, my question is I am a student at the

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University of Utah, and since I moved here I became Christian. I was raised

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LDS, and now over the summer I'm going back to live with my family, and I'm wondering what the best way is to do it to bring up what

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I've learned with my family and what I've found to be true,

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I mean, the knowledge that I have with them in a non - something that won't cause tension, something that will not, maybe not tension, but anger and aggression.

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Yeah, that is the challenge, isn't it? You're obviously facing a very complex situation there.

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First of all, I praise the Lord for his mercy and grace towards you. I think I see your roommate and channel right now.

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And obviously the first thing is taking care of your own spiritual health when you are at home.

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That's something that sometimes people forget, but when you're facing a situation like you're facing, continuing to have good fellowship and support and encouragement from your fellow believers in that situation is something that's very important.

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So don't try to be the Lone Ranger Christian within that context. Seek out good fellowship.

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That's the first thing, to keep yourself healthy and growing in the grace and knowledge of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Secondly, when you're new in the

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Lord, there is a tendency to think that you need to get on your white horse and gallop off and save the world and to save your family.

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The Bible talks about people who have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

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Zeal that has a foundation and a certain level of maturity to it is a wonderful thing.

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But sometimes when we are very zealous, especially with those that are closest to us, when we're very young in the

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Lord, we tend to end up building more walls than we do bridges. Obviously the conversation is going to come up.

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And when the conversation comes up, you can't in any way, shape or form compromise what you believe.

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But you can express it in a positive rather than a negative fashion. And what

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I mean by that is, let's put it this way. Listen to these two different presentations.

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Well, you know, I believe that the Bible and the

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Bible alone is the word of God. It has been given by God to his people.

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It's consistent with itself. It's God -breathed. And there have been so many generations of believers who have clung to this word and have found it to be enough for them.

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It testifies of who Jesus Christ is. It gives us everything we need to know for life and godliness. That's one way of saying it.

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The other way of saying it is, well, I don't need the Book of Mormon anymore. It's just a pile of myth and mythology.

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The Bible is all you need. And the Bible has tests for false prophets, and Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

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Now, one of those two presentations is going to raise the temperature in the room about 150 degrees, even though everything

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I said is true. Everything I said is true. But one gives a positive presentation that can, over time, lead you, maybe once you've built a foundation to be able to explain those things, the other just turns it into an emotional, they're automatically going to be defending their traditions, etc.,

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etc. type situation. And so, you know, it's not an easy balance to stick with, especially if emotions start running high.

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But I would, you know, you're in a, are you, you've got some folks up there that can be praying for you, can be encouraging, can be resources to you, even when you go home?

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Yes, well, there's a group at the university, I go to Reformation.

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Yeah, so Mike and the guys up there. Yeah. Well, let me tell you something. I know Mike's listening right now, and I see some of the others in the channel.

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I love those guys. I so, they are such an encouragement to me. Mike especially has, you know, we just could not be doing what we've done up there without Jason and Mike and those guys.

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So the Lord's been very good to you to put you together with them. Stick with them. Give them, you know, let them, you know, bounce some things off of them.

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Say, hey, what do you think about it? You know, because you know Mike's in a similar situation, but with a different religion. And the

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Lord has blessed in that situation. Learn from their patience, their maturity. But, you know, the biggest thing being a younger person is to seek to be patient in how you present yourself.

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Because, you know, I was, I first started doing what I'm doing when I was 20 years of age.

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And actually 19 years of age. And I can look back and, boy, the

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Lord protected me in a lot of situations. Because it is that issue of patience, trusting the Lord to give you the right opportunities that can be very, very difficult.

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Especially in family situations. Your family knows you far better than you may want to be known.

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You know what I mean? And that, you know, that makes you, that puts you in a difficult situation.

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And the other thing to avoid is don't think you're the only means by which the Lord can bring the gospel to your family.

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Simply by living the Christian life, demonstrating that Christ has changed you. He's changed your priorities.

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You do what you do for a different reason now. It can be a tremendous starting place that the

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Lord can bring other people in to then till that ground that you've been tilling by just simply your life.

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So, basically what I'm saying is don't back, you know, if they want to ask direct questions, great.

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Give them direct answers. But you can do so in one of two ways. You can do so out of a positive passion for the gospel that has changed your life.

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Or you can do it out of an opposition to what you once believed.

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And if you're doing it out of the positive passion, that communicates much better than the negative.

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The negative has to be stated, but it can be stated in such a way as to not be basically throw gas, throw match, watch explosion.

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You know, that's the type of thing you want to try to avoid. Yeah, the negative definitely doesn't need to be the first thing out.

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The other question I had is specifically, my brother's been asking me like why

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I've left. And my mother has been saying that I'm not supposed to talk to my brothers and sisters about them without my mom being around.

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And so it's the issue of the Ten Commandments versus what I want. Well, you know, my gut feeling at that point is if you're going to be in your parents' home, then you show respect for what your parents say.

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Now, of course, I wish there was some way to communicate to them that they're taking responsibility for that because they are.

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But be patient. Recognize that the Lord has ways of dealing with things.

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And I think if you show respect for them when you're in their home in saying, well,

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I'd like to have the opportunity of doing so, and I'd like to be able to do so in a way that shows respect for you, mom and dad, and yet also shows respect for the

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Lord Jesus Christ, then they've given that opportunity, great. But even if they just simply don't allow that, you can't exactly be in their home under their roof sneaking around behind them.

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That just doesn't adorn the gospel. And remember, the Lord has the whole world in His hands, and He has the life of your brothers and sisters in His hands as well.

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And He's going to bring the gospel to them in His way if that's what He desires to do, just as He did with you.

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I mean, going to the University of Utah is not the first place you'd think of you're going to encounter the gospel of grace. But the

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Lord did that for you, and He can do that for your sisters and brothers as well. So patience is hard.

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I know it is. But I think that it would really give you a solid foundation for being able to speak about matters of truth and consistency, because that's what you're going to need to be addressing in regards to Mormonism.

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So it's one thing to say, well, it's wrong here, but I don't mind being inconsistent in my own life.

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Those two don't fit together. So as hard as it is, that's the way to go.

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Okay. Thank you very much. Well, hey, again, thank you very much for calling, and we'll be in prayer for you.

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And have the guys up there that I'm in contact with let us know if there's anything we can do for you, if there's any questions thrown at you.

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Mike especially has my email address and can get ahold of me that way, and we can help you out any way that we can.

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Because sometimes in these situations, they'll bring in some guy who's read a couple of farms books or something like that and might throw some stuff that direction.

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We'd be glad to be of assistance in that type of situation, okay? All right. You're not alone out there, brother.

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Thank you very much. All right. God bless. Thanks for calling. Thanks a lot. Hey, boy, again, that's encouraging.

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You guys up there at the U of U, keep standing for the truth, man. It's a very neat thing to see the

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Lord working in that way up there in the midst of Salt Lake City, which those who are up there know it is a very dark, dark place.

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It is, as far as the gospel is concerned, there is a lot of religion, but it is a very dark place.

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And pray for those who minister up there, Jason Wallace, Christ Presbyterian Church, the young men who minister

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Reformation Fellowship there on campus at the University of Utah. That church has begun a

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Sunday evening service down in Provo, where BYU is. And so pray for those individuals.

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It's an important work they do. I consider it foreign missions work, really. And Steve, sorry we didn't get you this week.

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We'll pick you up on Tuesday, if you can call, or next Thursday. Thanks for listening today, folks.

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Thank you, Pete, for the work. Hopefully we got at least most of the bugs worked out.

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Thanks for listening to The Dividing Line. Pray for us. And those of you who are thinking about that cruise, don't put it off forever.

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Get in touch with Michael Fenton. At least contact him. Let him know you're thinking about it, so he can give you all the information you need. Thanks for listening.

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God bless. See you Tuesday here on The Dividing Line. That's AOMIN .org,

01:00:08

where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks. Join us again next Tuesday morning at 11 a .m.