Ordaining Women

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ. Based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said,.

But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth and I have Steve Cooley right here with me. Greetings and salutations. Steve, why is it that I get so much email? Where's Tuesday guy?

Bring on Tuesday guy. Make him Wednesday, Thursday, Friday guy. There's a lot of wisdom out there. As you can tell, I'm pretty much sick, Steve's sick. I think it's been because we've had a lack of faith.

If we just tell it to go away.

Tell your cold to go away.

Cold be gone. What about putting up no trespassing signs or something like that?

Well, I thought I could talk to my cold like Jesus talked to the water and then to the demon in Mark chapter four and five, be muzzled. Be still. Yeah. Be still and stay still. Well, on No Compromise Radio, I think that's a good lead into our beg-a-thon.

You know, it's the end of the year, Steve. We're running low on money and we have a matching gift. What book will we send out for free if they give the matching gift?

Yeah, but the matching gift, the guy said he'd match all the gifts up to five bucks. I don't know.

Oh, that was what our donor said? Yeah. All right, all right. I like that. Well, let's talk a little bit about women's ordination today. This is the time of year when it's the Code Orange Revival. That is crazy.

I will grant that there's a lot of orange.

I prefer the Agent Orange Revival.

Yeah, you give everybody like a gas mask when they walked in. You know what people need for the Stephen Furtick Code Orange Revival? They need a theological gas mask.

Definitely, definitely, to strain out all the nauseous particles.

I will say that Matt Chandler's message that he gave at Code Orange Revival in Charlotte, I have to give him kudos. Matt Chandler, in my mind, is a younger version of John Piper that is Calvinistic and charismatic.

And so I usually listen to Calvinistic and not charismatic people, but Matt Chandler's message was exactly to Stephen Furtick and the congregation there. No wonder it wasn't up for the rerun later. Allegedly.

Not a big hit. They won't be replaying that one. When I listen to Perry Noble's message, I don't know if you listen to that, Steve. Perry Noble? I know. I said that to my son, too. I said, and certainly someone else has come up with that thought.

I couldn't believe it is just story after story after comedy hour after themselves after scratching each other's back. I don't know what, Paul probably said something about,. I've determined to know nothing among you except outback jokes and flattery.

I don't recall that. That must be in the lost chapters of First Corinthians.

No, that's in the Latin Vulgate, Jerome. What we want to do, I guess we need to do this on the show today as well. We want people to talk about Christ and his word. This is not, well, I guess I was scratching your back at the beginning, wasn't I, Steve?

Absolutely, the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,.

Friday, Saturday guy. Maybe they want the Wednesday hash mark Friday guy. You're the dash. Nice. And so today I've got an article in front of me. It's called How to Argue for Women's Ordination by the Reverend Daniel Hinton.

See, I just can't get over the picture. I'm the woman with the boa and holding the Bible. Oh, that boa.

I didn't know the boa. I thought this was somehow a Mississippi show and it was a boa constrictor marked 16 snakes. No, no, no. So Furtick had this lady on, Christine Carnes, somebody, who would be a singer, Steve, named Christine?

I don't know. I once had a radio car partner named Christine Carnes.

Seriously, in the police department? Was she tough? She was real tough. Was she the equivalent of a theological Joyce Myers? Yeah, except for, I don't think Chris ever got married, if you know what I'm saying.

Okay. Whoa. All right. Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. This is our last show on WVNE today. We've been replaced with... If I wasn't clear enough, she could have got married in Massachusetts. Okay.

All right. This article says, recently a group has sprung up on Facebook advocating, quote, the ordination of women should be publicly discussed in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. And so Steve, the Missouri Synod, I grew up a Lutheran, but I wasn't Missouri Synod.

They were more conservative than I was. Yes, absolutely. I took what parts of the Bible I liked and then just discarded the rest when I was growing up.

Seemed to work. Kind of the Thomas Jefferson approach. Yeah, that's right.

It is the redactor version. And so Missouri Synod, I think is a more conservative Synod like the Wisconsin Synod. I still don't go for the baptismal regeneration or anything like that. But here's my question to you, Steve.

When the proverbial cat is out of the bag or the dog is in the room, once you ask the question, aren't you already sunk? Yep.

Yep. When should you ordain women? Well, I think as soon as...

I really can't think of a time. Okay, let's put it this way. If there was an elder meeting and someone said, you know, I'd like to meet with the elders and talk about an important matter. And we said, oh yes, you know, you're a member and we'd love to talk to you about what your concerns are.

And is this in fact an elder concern? And we said, all right, come and talk to us. And they said, we would like you to entertain the possibility of ordaining women.

We've entertained that possibility. Rated E for everyone. It came in and entertained us for a while. And then we opened up our Bibles and that kind of shut it all down.

So this blog spot gives some reasons why women should be ordained. And so we're going to use it as a teaching opportunity. And we want to uphold the word of God. Here's the bottom line when it comes to Christ and His church, it's His church.

And so like MacArthur would say, if you want to do something at a local assembly, fine, ordain women, just don't call yourself a church or don't call yourself Christians because Christians are by nature, by title, by history, by the word bound to Christ Jesus as the head of the church.

And he tells us what to do. He's purchased the church. And if he says clearly in Titus chapter three, excuse me, Titus chapter one and first Timothy three, that men should be preachers, men should be elders, then why do we entertain anything else?

Well, I mean, there are lots of reasons.

And we'll get into some of those because I think some of them are listed in the article, but you mentioned first Timothy three, first Timothy two really puts a crimp in things because Paul says in verse 12, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather she is to remain quiet.

And then of course the ladies like to come on and say, well, that was just cultural or that was just Paul's opinion or any number of things like that. And then of course the problem is verse 13, for Adam was formed first, then Eve 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

So he tells us the reason for that and he ties it back to the fall. And unless you can somehow reverse the fall, you can't undo this prohibition on ladies teaching. I mean, it's very clear and Paul doesn't say, and he does this in other places, he doesn't say this is my opinion.

You know, he doesn't even say that. Steve, it sounds like you're trying to just squish out the life of any woman that wants to serve. What if she's gifted?

Yeah, well, she can certainly teach ladies. I'm all for that. She can teach children. I'm all for that. But what she can't do is preach. Formally in the church, right? That's right. She can preach to her kids,.

She can preach to her family. Steve, would it be fair to say that we learn things from our wives? Yes. I see now, I only cough when I laugh. I had to think. This is a bad show for this because it's usually laugh, it's usually yuck it up Tuesday.

Well, you know, I mean, I guess this could happen when you were doing shows by yourself. You know, you can make yourself laugh. That's the funniest thing I've ever said. My kids always rib me and they'll say, dad, you know, you're in there in a room by yourself talking and laughing at your own jokes.

That's quite sad. So let's go through this step. And so here's what we do. What we do on No Compromise Radio, we're doing the opposite. We're doing the teaching ploy by saying things from the opposite perspective.

And then by contrast, we teach the truth because on No Compromise Radio, we will stand up for the truth of the word of God with Phinehas type of jealousy, won't we? Yes.

And so we're giving the counterfactual.

See, that's exactly what that is. But since I'm going to use the sick card, I'm too sick to know such words. Have you learned any new vocabulary words lately, Steve? No.

Okay. Absolutely not. But you know what? I have been doing words with friends and I've discovered, you know, cool words. I don't know what they mean, though.

They just keep plugging in a letter until it accepts it and you go, wow, I got it. Yeah, like H-O-W-E. H-O-W-E. Wasn't he a pitcher that had a drug problem for the Dodgers? Steve Powers, yeah.

Yeah, but see, it's a legitimate word. So I'm like, woo-hoo, woo-hoo. All right. And I've been using Q-I all over the place, you know.

Maybe I should give you more work to do here at No Compromise Radio in Bethlehem Bible Church because I used to play those games.

But now I don't have enough time. It only takes a minute to just throw a word down and, you know, score 40 or so points and thrash the competition. And then, you know, the next day it's another word. Funny.

All right, how do you get women ordained? Number one, step one. This is according to our, whatever it's called, whoever it is, I can't remember who wrote it. Adopt enthusiasm early on. Then it says, but by this I do not mean what the term has come to mean, i .e. that you are passionate and excited.

Here I intend the enthusiasm defined in the small cade. There's a new word for you, Articles 383. Of course, that same article staunchly condemns this idea, but hey, the confessions are living documents.

So isn't that fascinating that postmodernism has not only gone into how we interpret the Constitution but every other fixed document like the Bible? Well, I mean, sure, the Bible's a living,.

Breathing document. I mean, where else would you get all these goofy ideas like, you know, Jesus never condemned homosexuality? You know, I mean, all these other kinds of things, you have to make it a living and breathing document, malleable, you know, suitable for whatever purposes you want to misuse it for.

And that's what they do. Well, Steve, don't you think that early on in the first century church, they were on the right trajectory and if the Bible would have been written maybe in the fifth or sixth century or certainly the 19th or 21st century, that certainly Jesus would have affirmed homosexual love?

No, and you know this, but I mean, if God's design for men and women is revealed in Genesis, it would not change, no matter how much time it elapsed. So it is what it is, as they like to say.

But that is, and of course, I was speaking tongue in cheek, that is the rationale. They use a trajectory and they'll say, well, there was some improvement on how slaves were to be treated. There was some improvement on how women were to be treated.

There certainly must be improvement on how homosexuals must be viewed. Yeah. So we don't Just wrong. Okay. Oh, you know what it does say underneath the same step, Steve? Yeah, try this one. Yeah, God has given me all these gifts and he wants me to use them to glorify him.

I've heard that. Well, I'm gifted. Well, good.

You're gifted. Use your gift appropriately. I mean, people could have all kinds of gifts or imagine that they have all sorts of gifts. It doesn't really matter. We are constrained by scripture.

Steve, when Titus reads the letter that Paul wrote him called the letter of Paul to Titus, it says in chapter one, for there are many who are insubordinate. Let's just stop there. Give me a synonym for insubordinate.

Rebellious. So what happens when the Bible clearly, I mean, no one can argue with this. The Bible clearly says in 1 Timothy chapter two that women aren't supposed to be teachers and exercise authority over men.

What does it do when you just say, I will not have this man rule over me? This is total insubordination.

Yeah, I think you would call that rebellion.

Has God said, so what do they do? They have to say like Gordon Fee or somebody else, this is only to the church at Ephesus. Maybe this is only to the Cretans. Do they say that?

And you know what? What's so remarkable when you started down that track, I just thought this is exactly what Satan did with Eve in the garden. Has God really said, you may not eat of any of the tree.

I mean, this is the same thing. Has God really said that women can't teach?

Yes, yes he has. No Compromise Radio, Ministry, we're talking about women's ordination today. Step two, if you'd like to be a person who advocates women's ordination, which we hope you don't, it says here, monasticism is your friend.

What are they trying to say there, Steve? I don't know.

I mean, my mind immediately goes to Keswick theology, but that's a whole Keswick sanctification, but that's a whole nother topic entirely.

Well, I've just flashed into my mind where, can you imagine people, you know, just the Levites, just the people from Aaron's clan, his line, they're the only ones that get to be priest. I'm gifted and I'm more gifted than some of these Aaronic priest and the sons of Levi.

Just because my last name's not Cohen, you mean I can't teach? I can't offer incense and sacrifices?

Oh, this, he says, I love this. He says, after all, the kingdom of God is a hierarchy and the closer you are to God in the organizational chart, the better. Why risk your salvation on staying a lay woman?

In other words, you need to move up because then you'll be more sanctified. You'll be closer to God. That's why you have to climb the chart, as it were.

Steve, I probably live a sequestered life, a life, you know, that's kind of in a bubble. Cloistered. Yeah, cloistered, that's a good word. That's what I'm looking after. You can put that in your word search game for 500, cloister.

Too many vowels, though. But, you know, when I talk to godly women, and I've talked to godly women throughout the years, and from, you know, from Grandma Evie to my mother to Bill Bryan's wife, Shirley, I think is a very godly lady, Patricia MacArthur.

I've talked to different ladies. Kim Abendroth. Kim, yeah, Kim Abendroth. I'm gonna have her on the show soon, I think. I'm gonna ask her about women's ordination. I thought I'd like to ordain her. But anyway, the ladies that I have talked to, and of course, this is not an empirical study.

This is just anecdotal. Not one godly woman that I've ever talked to thinks it's appropriate for women to be preachers. When they see me turn on the Joyce Meyer, turn on the whoever your ex-cop friend was on Steven Furtick's Code Orange, whoever it is.

What's her name? Beth Meyers? Joyce Meyers, Beth Moore? Joyce Meyers, Beth Moore. What do I know? Beth Moore, Joyce Meyers. Beth Les, Joyce Meyers. It's interesting because something's wrong with this picture.

It's like my kids walking over to me when they were at the vintage church, Dan Kimble's place in Santa Cruz, and they walk in and they go, "'Dad, is this a church?'. It's the same visceral reaction. This is not right.

There's a woman getting up, taking authority that she doesn't have. Something's wrong.". Now, somebody's probably listening and saying, "'Well, I'm a godly woman and I think it's okay.'".

Right, because they've learned that or whatever, or it seems okay. And what really has happened is the culture has had its imprint on the church. In light of women's liberation, how dare the church tell ladies that they ought not teach?

We're all equal at the foot of the cross, right? You've come a long way, baby. Isn't that Virginia Slim?

Virginia Slims, yeah. Have you ever smoked a Virginia Slim? Let's just have a true confession time. Steve, have you ever smoked a Virginia Slim? No. No. Have you ever smoked a cigarette? No. Have you ever smoked a pipe?

No. Have you ever chewed tobacco? No. Seriously, no tobacco product has ever entered your system? No. Wow, that's amazing. Have you ever drank any alcohol? Shout to the Lord.

Oh, you know what I want to talk about, Steve? You know what my first drink of alcohol was? NyQuil. Really? Yeah, when I was probably about 16, had a really bad cold. Okay, well, I get that.

Steve, let's talk about something else while I'm thinking about it. What about women's worship, quote-unquote, leaders? Do you like women's worship leaders? Why or why not?

Well, I think it's a position of authority. I mean, if you take, quote-unquote, worship leaders, can we just call it music leaders? If you take that position seriously, it is a position of instruction.

It is a position of authority. You are leading people in worshiping God, so how can that not be a position of authority?

Stand up, sit down, let's sing all together, verses one and two.

Yeah, maybe some comments. Reading verses. Yeah, some comments, some verses, things like that, yeah.

Well, Stephen Furtick has women leading sometimes. Shout to, oh, nevermind. And I think they have men leading who look like women too, but that's another story. Here's what I think, Steve. Hater. I love to quote Sinclair Ferguson, and Sinclair Ferguson says this, and this is worth your time today on No Compromise Radio to all the listeners out there.

It's worth everything you paid for this show. That's exactly right. Here's what he says to someone who says, come to our church, we have great worship. And they advertise their church by saying, we have great worship.

Our worship is great. And what do they mean by that, by the way? Well, they're talking about their music. The music is great, good drums, bongos, slide guitar, if you're in the South. We have great worship.

And then Sinclair, with his, I don't want to say sardonic response, but with his dry Scottish response, he said, I think we should let God be the judge of how great the worship is. That is so classic.

What do you mean we have great worship? I think God will judge our worship and our intentions and our motives. Don't you? Preach it. So when there's some woman up there leading, she is actually leading.

Why do you call them a worship pastor, a worship leader? Steve, do we have a worship pastor here? Officially, no. Aren't we supposed to be the worship pastors? Don't we lead worship? Yes. So is there anything else in this article that's any good at all?

Well, I mean, you know, he talks about higher criticism. Is this written by a man? I have no idea. Wow, I think it must be. I didn't print it.

Yeah. There it is, How to Argue for Women's Ordination by Reverend Daniel Hinton. That makes it all the worse, doesn't it?

Absolutely, because who is he to stand in judgment of other people?

Maybe it's a woman who changed her name to a man. I don't think so.

He talks about higher criticism. Let me just read this part. What does this have to do with women's ordination? Remember, your opponents are basically knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing fundies with academic credentials only slightly higher than Oral Roberts.

I like that. So they're going to be using the Bible as a crutch. As a crutch. Yeah, they can quote the Bible all day long, but remember, they approach it like total simpletons and take it at face value.

You know better. That's higher criticism in a nutshell. You can't take the Bible seriously because we're all smarter than the Bible.

I've been reading some of Machen's work and his biography. Interestingly, when he went, he was having a crisis of faith. Did he really believe it? Was it just intellectual? Did he believe his heritage?

And went over to, of all places, Germany. And it was fascinating to watch how the Lord used that. And at the end of the day, Machen knew that there was only two religions, and one was a religion of modernism and naturalism and no miracles, no deity of Christ.

And the other was the supernatural gospel of Christ Jesus. These guys here just run around like this is something to be played with versus something to be sat under. This is Machen part two in my mind.

Yeah, I'm just reading further in the article. I like all this stuff. He says, never underestimate the power of an argument from personal suffering. In other words, whining. But he says, you know, it's so mean that they won't let you be a pastor.

They're suffering. They're keeping you away from your true calling. They're not letting you exercise your gifts. They're depriving the church of this great gift. And by the way, there might be millions of women just like you that they're keeping from serving the body as fully as they might.

You know, and that might add some weight to it. Your personal misery and the number of people who are suffering with you.

Steve, what do we do when the state says we have to ordain women?

What are we gonna do? We refuse and prepare to go to jail. Is that when you become the senior pastor?

I hope so. I'm just the helper. I think I'm going on sabbatical that time of year.

Well, it's like, you know, what do we do if the state says, listen, gay marriage is not only the law of the state, but churches have no right to refuse to marry gay couples.

And as you brought that up and time is winding down, Steve, this exact argument used for why women should be pastors and elders is the exact same argument used for homosexuality and why that is righteous and why they should actually be ordained too, isn't it?

Yeah, it's archaic.

You know, you guys are knuckle dragging cavemen. You know, basically you wanna drag us off by the hair and we've been liberated. We're just as good as you. And you know what? It is true. We are all equal at the foot of the cross, but saying that that means that women should be pastors is akin to saying women should be fathers.

It just doesn't make any sense. Or, you know, that husbands could be mommies. I mean, there are just, we are all assigned specific roles, not by culture, but by the God who created us.

This goes right back to our earlier comments about rebellion. And so God in His sovereignty has either made you a man or a woman. And if He has made you a person back in the Old Testament who is not a Levite, you are not, by the decree of Almighty God, allowed to be a priest.

And so just live under what God has done. Doesn't He do everything wisely? Yes. Perfectly? Yes, He's all wise. And so, as we used to teach our children, remember that obedience brings joy. So does submission.

So does humility. Well, I just don't agree. Well, you can write Steve at steveatnocompromiseradio .com and he'd be glad to answer any questions about women's ordination. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's Word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text. Please come and join us.

Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400. The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.