WWUTT 2165 Q&A Finding a Good Church, Women Pastors, Talking to the Dead

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Why are so many churches positioning women as pastors? How far does a church go in egalitarianism before it's no longer

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Christian? And is it possible for you to hear from your dead relatives? The answer is when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary that we may be conformed to the image of Christ and love one another as He has loved us.

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Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com. Here once again is

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Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. We are back to Psalm 18. Yes. And picking up where we left off last week.

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Yes. So I'm going to start reading here in verse 16 and we'll go through verse 24. Okay. Out of the Legacy Standard Bible.

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He sent me from on high. He took me. He drew me out of many waters.

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He delivered me from my strong enemy. And from those who hated me.

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For they were too mighty for me. They confronted me in the day of my disaster. But Yahweh was my support.

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He brought me forth also into a broad place. He rescued me. Because He delighted in me.

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Yahweh has rewarded me. According to my righteousness. According to the cleanness of my hands.

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He has recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of Yahweh. And have not wickedly departed from my

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God. For all His judgments were before me. And I did not put away

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His statutes from me. I was also blameless with Him. And I kept myself from my iniquity.

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Therefore Yahweh has recompensed me. According to my righteousness. According to the cleanness of my hands.

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Before His eyes. Now, we know that, according to what

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Scripture says, the righteousness that we have comes not from ourselves. It comes from God. We often talk about how

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Christ has imputed to us His righteousness. Yes.

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So that now, by faith in Jesus, when we stand before God, He doesn't see us as the sinful wretch that is deserving of judgment.

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But He sees us as having the righteousness of His Son. Right. We just talked about this this past week, in fact, on the podcast as I've been in Isaiah 61.

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And even talking there about how God gives us His righteousness. But here in this psalm, we are reading about how, and this being a psalm of David, as it said in the very beginning, we're reading about how

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David is saying, Yahweh has rewarded me according to my righteousness. So how is it that David can say that when we don't have a righteousness of our own to speak of, but it is the righteousness of Christ that is given to us?

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And, of course, this is during a time when Christ has not yet come and has lived and died and risen again.

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Right. So David would not be receiving the righteousness of Christ here necessarily anyway. Right. But still, as we've been going through Isaiah, we read about the righteousness that God gives to His people.

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So how is David able to boast in His righteousness or say that God has delivered me up from the hands of my enemies because I have done righteously?

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Is it like, you know, how we're constantly being sanctified? Yes. So does that count?

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Well, it's really, it's that, yes, God gives us His righteousness, but we are also supposed to do righteously.

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Right. And if you know that you have been shown the grace of God, then you must live in that grace.

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The passage that I'm going to be preaching on this weekend is out of 2 Timothy 2, and it's there that the

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Apostle Paul is writing to Timothy, and he says to Timothy in verse 22, flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the

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Lord from a pure heart. Yeah. So even though the righteousness of Christ has been given to Timothy, he still has that responsibility to hear this call and turn from sin, don't even go toward any of that which could potentially lead you away or disqualify you in the work that God has assigned for you in His church, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, and do this with those who call on the

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Lord from a pure heart. All right. This is the Friday edition of When We Understand the

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Text, and on this Friday episode, we take questions from the listeners, and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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Or go to the website and leave us a voicemail. Go to www .tt .com.

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There's a new feature on there. If you go to the top of the menu bar there, on the right -hand side, it says voicemail.

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Click on that, and you can send us a voicemail. Yes, please. This week, we've got two voicemails.

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Wow. Yep. So we're going to get to those voicemails here in just a moment, but first let me respond to a few emails.

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This is actually kind of packed this week, so I'm going to try to get it all in here. All right. Talk fast. If you'll remember, last week

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I think we recorded a little bit early, and we didn't have much. Right. So now I think we have, what, 10 days' worth of stuff that we've accumulated.

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Yes. So it's a little more than usual. This first question is anonymous.

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We're not going to mention anybody's name on this one. He has requested that his name not be included or the name of his church.

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Hey, Pastor Gabe, I'm struggling with how to go about some troubles in our church. It is very surface level and mostly provides spiritual milk, not meat.

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So you think about how the Apostle Paul said to the church in Corinth that you need to go back to milk because you're not ready for the meat yet.

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Yeah. And in Hebrews, we have that rebuke that you should be on meat by now.

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Yes. But you're going back to the milk. So he says, I also disagree theologically and on secondary issues, such as women being elders, uh -oh, charismatic gifts, et cetera.

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Sometimes it seems more like a TED Talk sprinkled with some Bible verses. We love the people at our church.

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This has just been a little troubling to us. I'd appreciate the guidance. Please keep this anonymous if you use it on your show, as I am not trying to gossip or talk bad about my church.

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I am just looking for some help. Well, I would say that in that particular situation, man, it's hard for me to not tell you you just need to go find another church.

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Yeah. And I know in a lot of cases that's easier said than done because you and I have fielded questions before from people that live in pretty remote areas.

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Yeah, definitely. And there's not really a lot of options for going to another church. But if you have a church where women are elders,

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I mean, that means they would be pastors. So they're functioning in that position. Yeah.

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Then you have a clearly disobedient church.

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They are disobeying what Scripture has said on basic levels of who is qualified to even be pastor or teacher in the church.

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1 Timothy 2, verse 11, a woman must learn in all quietness with submission.

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But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet.

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For Adam was formed first and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.

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So we have that statement there in 1 Timothy 2. And then the very next thing you read going into chapter 3 is the qualifications for elders.

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So we see first he must be a man. And then he must be a qualified man. And here's the qualifications that he's supposed to meet.

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And it looks like on just that level of things that are happening in your church, you already have disobedience.

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Charismatic gifts. I mean, I don't know what you mean by that, because there's no expounding on it, but I'm assuming that you mean there's some pretty charismatic things that are going on there that are abused and things that can't even be verified as being genuinely of the

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Holy Spirit. I mean, obviously, if you've got women in your church that are filling the pastor role, then you have people in your church, still believers, but they are abusing the

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Spirit. They are grieving the Holy Spirit. They don't seem to be in the Spirit or in submission to the

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Spirit, especially not to His Word. So really, my first counsel to you would be, if you can pick something else, if there's a chance that you can find something else, then you should.

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And if that is not an option or that just isn't practical, then you and your bride,

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I mean, start talking to some people in the church. Well, you especially having the responsibility of going to the pastor and saying, why are we doing this?

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Opening up the Scriptures and saying, here's what Scripture says, and look at the way that we're behaving here.

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Yeah. Sounds like, I mean, you need a healthy dose of 1 Corinthians. Yeah. Like you said, everything is kind of milky.

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It's not meat. Right. So you need to open up 1 Corinthians and start looking at what

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Paul is saying to that church and where your church is going wrong and needs to hear these things.

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Yeah. I don't feel like it's surface level. I think it goes deeper than surface level.

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Oh, yeah, sure. He was saying it was surface. Well, the talk, like it's just very shallow.

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Oh. So sometimes it seems like Ted talk sprinkled with some Bible verses. Oh, I thought it was before that.

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He said very surface level and mostly provide spiritual milk, not meat. Oh, okay.

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Not the problems. The preaching. Yes, right. Oh, I misunderstood. Not the problems are surface level. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Okay. It does go deeper than that. It goes way deeper. Yeah. I was like, I don't know how to tell you, but no, you're fine.

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The thing where we make comments about the teaching there is like an inch deep and a mile wide, that sort of thing.

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Yeah. Vague enough to hit everybody. Not to offend anyone. Right. Not to offend anyone.

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Make sure you feel something and connect. And it does fit without knowing anything else.

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It does sound like it's very feelings driven. It's very humanist. We're just trying to please people here.

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Right. Instead of being a worshipful people and being in submission to what God has said, according to his word.

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Right. It doesn't sound like a church of the word. And so, again, if you can find something else, that would be my recommendation.

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But if this is what you got, and like you said, you love these people, if there is a chance that you can talk to these people and help to guide them into sound biblical truth, it's going to be a lot of work.

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Yeah. But that's the most, it would be the biggest reward ever.

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To see that happen. Yeah. I mean, you've got reformation that's happening in the very church that you are a part of.

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Yeah. Now, think of, like I said, there seems to be some comparison between this and the church in Corinth.

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And so, think of what Paul went through with that particular church. He didn't write them off.

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And he didn't say, guys, you're off. Just close your doors and whatever. Right. And there was an issue going on there with women preaching or filling those pastoral or elder offices, even in the church in Corinth.

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Because the statement is made in 1 Corinthians 14, just like what we read here in 1 Timothy 2.

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Yeah. About a woman must remain quiet. If there's any questions she has, she can ask her husband at home. But she's not supposed to be standing up and filling those roles as a pastor.

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So, it does sound a lot like a Corinthians sort of a situation. Yeah. The church in Corinth. So, how can you kind of help bring people in your church to an awareness of that?

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Paul didn't write them off and didn't go, okay, guys, you've got women pastors already, well, you're done.

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Right. And then shut that church down. He was long suffering with them. He was harsh where he needed to be harsh.

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He rebuked them where they needed to be rebuked. But he did so out of love for that church.

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Right. Because he wanted to see them thrive in the spirit that he knew was there.

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He knew they had the Holy Spirit, that the gospel was there, but they had some serious issues going on.

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Yeah. Even abusing the Lord's table to the point that some of them were getting sick and dying. Yeah. And they were allowing people to be in their midst that were guilty of sexual immorality, that were even denying that the resurrection had taken place.

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And these are things that Paul needed to confront and said, get them out from you. Bad company corrupts good character.

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And so, if you're allowing them to be there, it is affecting and harming the entire church. So, how can you make this a mission even within your own congregation, especially since you love these people and you want to see them grow in the spirit?

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You don't want to just turn your back on them. So, look for those places where you can speak into this.

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You know, you might be like Chloe's people in Corinthians. Because Paul was saying that Chloe's people had come to him and given him this report on what was going on.

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Maybe that's what you're doing here. Yeah. I would not compare myself to the Apostle Paul, but you know. Just an advisor.

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Right. Yeah. Look for those comparisons. Go through 1 Corinthians. Make that a point of study for yourself and see how your church is like that.

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And how can we start making those corrections? Yeah. I know it's very common, especially in our circles.

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We're talking more like the Reformed circles. It's very common in our circles to encounter this sort of a situation where you've got women in a church who are functioning as elders or they may even hold the title of pastor.

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And then we just look at that and we go, well, that's done. Leave. Go somewhere else. Yeah. Because they have women pastors.

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I know that's a common thing, but if you feel like that maybe these people would be willing to listen to me and we can see change happen in this body, then do what needs to be done to try to wake these people up to an understanding of the word and be in submission to it.

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Yeah. I think that's the best thing. Yeah. That would be the greatest thing ever.

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And we want to know. We want to know what happens. Yeah. Right. So months from now or next year or whenever, you want to send me an email again and give me an update.

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I would like to hear about it. Because we have that in the Bible about the Church of Corinth too.

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You have 1 Corinthians, Paul is rebuking them, and then you get 2 Corinthians to see some of them have come around.

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Yes. Although there's still some problems with some others. Yes. Not every church is perfect, but it is.

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And it takes a while. That's right. This is family, y 'all. It's family. It is. You don't get to pick your family.

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That's right. You're going to be with these people for a long time. All right.

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This next one, I don't have a name attached to this one. Hi, Pastor Gabe. Greetings from the West Valley of Phoenix.

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Hoping to come out and visit your church soon. Oh, fun. I was recently introduced to the biblical patriarchy ideology of gender roles beyond the home and the church.

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I've been going back through your Isaiah study. I just passed Isaiah 3 .12,

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where you discuss the female leaders in Judah. I was hoping you might shed some light on this idea and how it differs from complementarianism.

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All right. Let me come back to Isaiah 3. I might be able to recall off the top of my head what

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I said in that particular passage. But this is the verse where God is rebuking

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Israel. He is rebuking them for the way that they have turned away from him. He is warning them that judgment is coming against them by the hands of the

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Assyrians. And so in verse 12, Oh, my people, their taskmasters are infants and women rule over them.

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Oh, my people, those who guide you lead you astray and swallow up the way of your paths.

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Now, it is true that the men had become so weak that there were women who were leading the way in Israel.

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But this can also be spoken figuratively. It can also be as though to say the men are not acting like men, because that was definitely going on as well.

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It is talked about in Isaiah how you will go find a man and say, lead us and give us direction and the man will be clueless.

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I don't know what to do. It's not my job. It's not my task to do it. So to say that women rule over them and your taskmasters are infants is really to just it's also a condemnation of the men.

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And that you're acting like children or women, but you're not acting like men of God. So it is true that there were probably women that were assuming those roles, but also it's a rebuke against the men.

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So with women in these particular roles, in these ruling roles, the way that you see it in Scripture is that men are supposed to have those roles.

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And you know that the health of a nation, of a household, a church, a nation, you're going to see in those healthy environments, you will see men leading the way.

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Where it's unhealthy, women are leading. They're leading the home. They'll be leading even in offices of government.

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Yes, folks, I take the position that a woman should not be president of the United States. And it hasn't happened yet, but it's getting awfully close.

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Yeah, it is. The first person in line for presidency right now is a woman. Now, we refer to this as biblical patriarchy.

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God has given a responsibility to men to be leaders, to be the providers, to be the protectors.

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A nation is safest when men are at the helm. There are women who make good leaders, but God has not given it to them to fill those roles.

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And there are some roles, doesn't matter how good a leader a woman is, she should not be in that spot because that spot needs a man in order to be the right protector and guidance in that situation, in that position of leadership.

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So, we understand this as biblical patriarchy, that God has created the men for these roles.

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Women are safest and fulfilling their God -given duties when they are in subjection to those ruling authorities that God has appointed men to fill.

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As I've said many times, the safest environment for a woman is in a home that is led by a

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God -fearing man. Yes. The second safest environment for women and children is in a church with God -fearing elders who are men.

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Those are the two safest environments for women and children. Yeah. So, yeah, like I said, biblical patriarchy is how we refer to that.

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Now, there is the doctrine that we refer to as complementarianism. Basically, the idea of complementarianism is that God has created a man for certain roles.

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God has created a woman for certain roles. The man's roles, a woman's not supposed to do, and the roles that God has created a woman to do, a man is not supposed to do.

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But they can complement one another in their strengths and weaknesses, especially when you're looking at the context of marriage.

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Right. Like Adam had Eve, who was his helpmeet, and she wasn't inferior to him in any way, but the two of them were one flesh, as described.

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But she didn't name any animals, and she wasn't given the job of, you know, go work, even though she was to work.

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Right, as his helper. Right. She had work, but a different kind of work. Right. So the two of them together completed each other, and that's the concept behind complementarianism.

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Now, there are some people out there, and usually they're biblical patriarchy. Okay. That hate this concept of complementarianism, because they will say that complementarianism is really like a hijacking or a diminishing of biblical patriarchy.

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As though to say patriarchy was too offensive a term to the world. We need a softer term that the world will be more in agreement with, and so complementarianism is what we have come up with.

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Okay. And I don't agree with that criticism. I don't either. I like both. There's biblical patriarchy, and there's complementarianism, and there's no reason why those two things need to be opposed to one another.

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They can actually complement one another. How about that? And be two doctrinal outlooks that are compatible.

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I don't think that the concept of biblical patriarchy answers a lot of questions that can be responded to with complementarianism.

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Those people who are worldly hate both of them. Yes. They think complementarianism is just biblical patriarchy.

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Yes. And so it's not that complementarianism has come along to try to make it easier for the world to understand.

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Like, we want to be friendlier to the world, so let's stop using patriarchy and go back to complementarian.

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I think you can use them both. Just define them in the right way. There's nothing wrong with that.

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And they're equally offensive, so you're fine. That's right, yeah. They're equally offensive to worldly people, to feminists, to liberals, and that doesn't really matter.

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I've probably been critical of complementarianism in the past, and maybe the person who submitted this question maybe had even heard me say that in Isaiah 3.

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Honestly, I can't remember what it was that I taught under that particular area. But it's fine to have complementarianism.

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It's fine to have biblical patriarchy. Just don't let one undo the other one. Just understand what

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Scripture says. We got our labels. We try to stick them on everything else. And there's not a perfect label for anything, because God is perfect.

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And the Holy Bible is perfect. The reason for using these labels is to summarize things that Scripture teaches.

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Sure. But when people don't even understand what the definition of those labels are, there's a few labels out there that nobody can agree what it really means.

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Yeah, and then it becomes a quarrel. Everybody's arguing about it. Then it becomes a quarrel over words. Yeah. Which Paul tells

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Timothy to avoid. Right. Yeah, there's certainly that. But like saying, you know, there are certain doctrines that as you come to your church and say, well, we must all believe this, complementarianism, whatever else.

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I'm just kind of using that as an example. Okay. It's not so much important that you make sure everybody agrees with biblical patriarchy or complementarianism.

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Just understand what the Scripture says. Often the way that I will teach doctrines is not to say, today we're going to learn about total depravity and then go into total depravity.

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You know, R .C. Sproul might do that. That's not necessarily my approach. And he does great with it. He does. And I love listening to his lectures.

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Yeah, he did. Usually the way that I do it is I will come into it and begin teaching the concept. And then we'll get to the end of the teaching with all the

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Scriptures and everything laid out. And then we'll say, you know, something to the effect of, by the way, this doctrine that we've been studying today has a name and it's total depravity.

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Yeah. So instead of starting with it and then teaching that, I'm going to show you what the Scripture says. You know, there are theologians who have thought all this out long before we've gotten here.

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Yeah. And they've given names to these particular systematic doctrines that we've just worked through.

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And the one we've just gone through today is total depravity. So I might say that on the back end.

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And the reason being because I'm more of a Bible teacher than I am a professor. And so I don't necessarily think of myself as having that professor knack.

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Here's the term. We're learning today. Here's what we're going to learn about it. I'm more, let's go to the

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Scriptures. Here's what the Scriptures say. And now do you see how all of this totals up into this doctrine that we call total depravity?

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Yeah. Just kind of give you an example of that. But anyway, thank you for the question. I hope that that's beneficial for you to see the benefits of both biblical patriarchy and complementariness.

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This next one comes from Tamara. Pastor Gabe and Miss Becky, thank you for the work that you are doing.

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I have felt like I've barely been keeping my head above water. And so far, the podcast has been helping tremendously.

24:37

Many thanks. Oh, wonderful. My question is one of the age -old submission of the wife.

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I think we're still going on with a complementarian theme here. Okay. I am new to these names, but I suspect one of us is

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Arminian. And I'm thinking that the other is Calvinistic. How is the wife to submit in church selection to honor her husband, even though things like a female pastor is on the team?

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She is not the lead pastor. And speaking in tongues is celebrated. I joined the youth team to learn what they are teaching them, and that's actually good.

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Answers in Genesis. The next church to visit is 30 minutes away. Although I'm up for the trip, my husband is happy with the church that we attend now.

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I know I'm not my husband's personal Holy Spirit. So how do I approach this, or do

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I even? Is it good enough to stay with some faulty details and let God work in the gap?

25:33

Now, Tamara, I'm not quite following what you mean with regard to using the terms

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Arminian and Calvinistic, because they don't sound like they apply necessarily in what it is you're saying, unless you are saying that one of you, between you and your husband, is

25:48

Arminian, and the other one is Calvinistic. That's the way I took it. Okay. And then maybe the church teaches one, but not the other.

25:55

Right. So then how does a wife submit to church selection? That's the main gist of the question that you're asking.

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So you and your husband have not yet decided on a church. How can a wife be submissive to the decision that the husband makes with regard to here's where we're going to go to church?

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Well, to be a submissive and patient wife, and understanding that whatever decision that he makes is the decision that he's making for the family, and to be accepting of that.

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But it doesn't mean that whenever we talk about these things with regards to patriarchy or complementarianism, that the man makes all the decisions and the woman just has to go along.

26:36

Right. Y 'all can talk about it. We don't function that way. I use a lot of words.

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I recommend if it's a concern to you, then you need to let your husband know that it's a concern to you.

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Right. And just to be on good terms. Don't interrupt him doing something.

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Just say, hey, whenever you have time, I'd like to talk about church that we're attending at the moment.

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And then he can come back to you when he has time. And then you guys make the time together to sit down and calmly discuss it.

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And not like throw each other under the bus of you're taking me to the church or whatever. You know, none of that type of talk.

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But just list your concerns with it. And then say, you know,

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I've been looking around at other possibilities. What do you think about this church? And he can totally flat turn it down.

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And that's the decision. Or he can say, you know, he might even say, okay, let's go check it out.

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And then you guys can have another conversation about, you know, what were the pros and cons. Because no church is going to be perfect.

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Even when you're thinking about, you know, there's a really, really good, rich, spiritually mature church that's 30 minutes away.

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And you might be able to go there. And as far as, you know, the type of teaching and the theology that you're going to receive, all of that's going to be very good.

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But will the distance prevent you from being more involved? That's also to take into consideration.

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Because there's a lot of people who go to our church, but they live far away, like 45 minutes.

28:18

Right. They don't make it to every Bible study. Yeah, they don't come as often. Yeah. And it does prevent them.

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But they do try to find something closer. Generally, they find something closer in the area that they can attend when they miss ours.

28:34

But it's still sad whenever they can't make it, you know. Yeah, but you still, right, even in that particular situation, though, you may have something else.

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I'm going to go to Bible study here, but I'm going to go to church here. You know, something like that. Yeah. You still don't feel yourself being truly connected with either one of them.

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Yeah, you're in two boats. Yeah. There's still a little bit less of something that you don't get, because you're not fully involved.

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You're committed to this group, because that's my family. So if the church is furthest away, then you're going to run into that.

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In which case, it doesn't matter how spiritually mature it is or healthy it is, because you won't be maturing with that church if you're not regular with that church.

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Right. Whereas you've got the other one that may not be as spiritually mature, but it's closer. You still feel connected to that church.

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Maybe there's some problems, but you know that we can help one another along in this. As I'm coming into this church and being committed to it,

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I'm going to try to help people grow, which is a responsibility we all have.

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Yes. So when you go to Ephesians 4, 11, and 12, it says that God gave the apostles and the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and the teachers to prepare the saints for the work of ministry, for building one another up in love.

29:55

So it doesn't say there that these persons, the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and the teachers, they do all the work in the church.

30:01

It doesn't say that. It says that they are given to prepare the saints for the work of ministry.

30:07

So we all have a call and a role to the ministry that we're a part of in the church.

30:13

It's not a spectator event. Right. We're not just there to sit and receive. We're also giving.

30:20

The whole concept of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 to 14, Paul says you have received these gifts for the benefit of the church, to build one another up in love.

30:30

It's not for your benefit, although you do benefit. Yes. But the purpose of the gifts is to benefit others.

30:37

And so as you find your involvement there in the church, that's what you're going to be doing, taking the gifts that God has given you and helping to grow others, which then you all mature together in love.

30:47

Right. And that's what Ephesians 4 goes on to say, as you continue to read there. And I think that's what we were trying to encourage the first emailer in of sticking with it and building up the church.

31:03

Having a 1 Corinthians experience. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not going to be easy. And it sounds like there's still a little bit of that here, too, because she does say there's a female pastor on the team.

31:14

She is not the lead pastor. That's still a problem. Yeah. Speaking in tongues is celebrated.

31:20

That's also a problem. It sounds like you've got the same 1 Corinthians sort of a deal. That's what I was thinking.

31:26

But is the gospel preached there? Yes. Are they directing people to Christ? That's a great question.

31:32

Are you growing in the Lord? Do you see biblical teaching, a willingness to call out sin and to point people to the gospel and grow in Christ who is proclaimed?

31:46

Because if the teaching is deviating from that and going into anything else, godliness is not going to be the result.

31:52

That's Paul's warning to Timothy in 1 Timothy 6, 4. If anyone does not teach the sound words of our

31:59

Lord Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, meaning that all the teachings surrounding

32:04

Christ, the gospel, and otherwise is going to produce godliness in the people that listen to it and follow it.

32:10

If they're going another way with the teaching, then that person is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.

32:16

And he has an unhealthy craving for controversy and quarrels over words. And that's the kind of division that you're going to see spreading throughout the church if the teaching is not sound.

32:26

Or if there's not at least a commitment to the sound teaching. Right. And the proclamation of the gospel. So that's first and foremost.

32:33

Whenever you're looking for a good church, the first thing you want to be looking for is the gospel being proclaimed there.

32:38

And if you're in a church where that is happening, there's some issues. But hopefully, maybe you can help guide the church in the right direction if they're willing to be in subjection to what

32:50

God has said according to his word in the Bible. Yeah, you and your husband. Yes, and your husband. Right.

32:56

Yeah, right. Because that was the nature of the question. How do I be in submission?

33:02

And hoping for you and praying for you, Tamara, that your husband would have enough spiritual maturity to recognize which church is the best, not only for me, but for my family.

33:14

All right, these next couple of questions, here's where we get to some voicemails. Okay, so we've got two voicemails.

33:19

Technically, we've got three because this first person sent us two. Okay. This is from Roberto.

33:26

So let me play his question, and then the next voicemail that he gives is a correction to the first question.

33:34

Okay. So here we go. I understand that. Here's the question. Hey, Pastor Gabe and Gabe's wife,

33:41

Becky. This is Roberto Silva from Christ Fellowship Church here in Valdosta, Georgia.

33:47

Just letting you know that we love the podcast, but I was just wondering two questions.

33:53

Me and a group here at my job, I work for Progressive Insurance. We're trying to start a

34:00

Christian ERG, Employee Resource Group. It's kind of like one of those DEI groups.

34:06

And we're finding that a lot of the organizers aren't biblically sound. They're recommending pastors to prosperity preachers and women pastors.

34:17

And also, their focus is not headed in reaching the laws. It's in a few other things.

34:24

But what do you think? What should I do to kind of make them more sound or to keep the group as sound as possible?

34:33

And my second question is, I had a recent sister in the Lord at our church.

34:39

She had mentioned how her mother, her dead mother, had visited her in her sleep.

34:47

Clearly, the Bible doesn't teach about the dead coming back from heaven and or hell. So, could you speak a bit more about that?

34:55

How can I approach this sister in the Lord and respectfully correct her with the word? Thank you for all you guys do.

35:01

We really appreciate you. All right. I'm going to play the correction here in just a moment here. Okay.

35:07

But yeah, man, we've been dealing with some women pastor questions. Yeah. This week.

35:13

A lot. It is so heartbreaking to hear that that is becoming more and more of a problem.

35:19

Yeah. Okay. So, here's Roberto's correction to the question that he just asked. All right. I want to go ahead and correct myself.

35:28

The lady, the sister in the Lord that goes to our church has told us that her mother has visited her, has talked about how her mother has visited her on multiple occasions.

35:39

So, yeah. Just how do I biblically speak to this? Because I'm in accordance. I'm lined up with scripture where Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man and the rich man in hell, asking to go to be able to warn his parents or warn his family.

35:58

And Jesus says, no, you can. You just can. You're here. There's no going back.

36:03

So, just help me out with this if you could. Thank you so much. Again, we love your ministry. This is

36:09

Roberto Silva again from Christ Fellowship Church. So, let me answer the second question first.

36:14

Okay. Because you mentioned there about the story that Jesus tells concerning the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16.

36:23

And I think that's a great place to go with the gal that's in your church who thinks that she's being visited by her mother.

36:29

That's a good passage to look at. Yeah. And so, to look at it with her and try to help her.

36:35

And I don't know what that would look like. I don't know how you would have such a conversation. But to pick up exactly that story, because I think you're already on the right track.

36:45

And to share that with her and then to point out the part where the rich man says, because remember, if you will recall this account that Jesus gives, you have

36:58

Lazarus who's a poor man who dies and he gets taken to heaven or to paradise,

37:04

Abraham's bosom as it's called. He's there at Abraham's side. There's another man, a rich man who enjoyed good things in life and his name is not given.

37:13

Right. But he dies also and he's taken to a place of fiery torment. And so, he looks across whatever chasm or gap that is separating him in that place from the place where Lazarus is.

37:26

And he can see Lazarus there with Abraham. And so, he begs for relief in this fiery place of torment that he is in.

37:33

And of course, if there's anybody who knows of this story taking place, it's the one who came from the other side.

37:41

It's Jesus. Right. Who is telling this account. So, he knows of this account. This is not a parable. This is something that really happened.

37:48

Right. Because he uses a name. He uses a name. It doesn't fit the format or the pattern of parables.

37:54

And this is something that Jesus is recalling has actually taken place. Right. And so, the rich man is asking for some relief and Abraham says,

38:04

Child, remember that during your life you received your good things and likewise Lazarus bad things.

38:10

But now, he is being comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you, there is a great chasm fixed so that those who wish to come over here to you are not able.

38:24

And none may cross over there to us. And he said, Then I am asking you,

38:29

Father, that you send him to my father's house for I have five brothers in order that he may warn them so that they will not come to this place of torment.

38:39

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. But he said,

38:45

No, Father Abraham. But if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But Abraham says to him,

38:51

If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.

39:00

Now, the purpose of this account, of course, is to say that someone who rises from the dead is not going to be able to convince someone.

39:07

They can only be convinced by the scriptures. Right. If they're going to be convinced by the scriptures, the conviction of the

39:12

Holy Spirit, then they will believe someone rising from the dead is not going to convince them to believe. And, of course,

39:18

Christ is talking about himself rising from the dead. They didn't believe me before I died and rose from the dead.

39:25

Yes, they're not going to believe me after that as well. So that's right. That's really the point that he's making there.

39:30

But you can still see even from this account that people are not sent from the other side to communicate with people on this side.

39:38

In fact, as said in Deuteronomy 1810, There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices soothsaying, or one who interprets omens or a sorcerer, or one who is an enchanter or a medium or a spiritist, or one who inquires of the dead.

40:03

For whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh, and because of these abominations,

40:09

Yahweh your God will dispossess them from before you. So this is a very serious thing to be communicating with the dead.

40:16

We don't hear from our dead relatives. They don't come and talk with us. In Isaiah chapter 8,

40:23

Now when they say to you, inquire of the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their

40:31

God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living, to the law and to the testimony?

40:39

If they don't speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. And that is Isaiah 8, 19 and 20.

40:46

So you see continuously through scripture, these rebukes of communicating with the dead.

40:53

The king Saul had communicated with Samuel. There was the witch of Endor that conjured him up.

41:02

And Samuel saying to Saul, you're going to be where I am tomorrow. You're dying. So it's a very serious thing.

41:10

It is a serious crime in the eyes of God. So when it comes to communicating this with your friend, doing it in a loving way, but pointing out to her in the scriptures.

41:20

You cannot be communicating with the dead. Nor is there any indication whatsoever that those who are on the other side can come to us and communicate with us.

41:30

Samuel talking to Saul was a very special circumstance. But that circumstance even came about because of a witch who had summoned up Samuel and Saul died as a result of it.

41:40

Right. So it's not something that that account is not evidence of like, oh, good.

41:45

Well, I can communicate with my dead relatives. Right. Here's the scary thing about what you're saying, though.

41:52

Like your account is that she has even said that she's talked to her mother on several occasions.

41:59

Now, is it talked to or is it dreamt of? Well, if it's a dream, that's one thing.

42:04

Then she she's just mistaken. And somehow she needs to it needs to be shown to her that her dreams are not reality.

42:11

But if she thinks that she's actually conversing with her mother, then that's a different problem.

42:18

Okay. If that's true, she's not talking to her mother. She's talking to a demon.

42:26

And there is a deceptive spirit that is convincing her that she can communicate with her mom.

42:34

Spirits don't come back like this. God does not permit spirits that are the souls of people who are in heaven does not permit them to come back to the other side and start having conversations with people over here.

42:44

That is forbidden in Scripture. There are not exceptions to this. And so that that would be a very concerning circumstance.

42:54

And and therefore, as you have this conversation with her, which I think is very, very important, maybe not having it just between the two of you, maybe even getting your pastor involved.

43:03

Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna piggyback on that. Yeah, right. About not being not being just the two of you, but being more private, though.

43:14

Yeah. And so not making a spectacle of this, like you really have concerns about this woman and what she's doing.

43:21

Yes. Right. And so to prove that and to make that a more known to her, right, that you care about her.

43:30

And that's why you're approaching her and telling her the seriousness of this is is because you you made it more private rather than publicly announcing, you know, you're lying, you know, or whatever.

43:43

Yes. Or this is terrible. Since this is in your church and it's somebody that's in your church, talk with your pastor about it.

43:50

Definitely. And have that discussion with him. And then how can we make this approach to her out of concern for, you know, you're claiming to communicate with your mom.

44:00

Yeah. Either you are deceived or you're you're doing something that's even downright wicked.

44:07

Yeah. Now, the other question that you asked, I don't know that I clearly understand what's going on.

44:13

So you talked about, you know, starting a group that's something like a group, but with more of a

44:19

Christian direction to it. And you got some people in that group who are into some funny things, charismaticism, believing that women can be pastors.

44:27

And once again, even in that situation, you just have to come to the scriptures and try to show them what the scriptures say about this, that women cannot be pastors and that this is a role that is intended that God intended for a man to fill.

44:40

So start there in First Timothy chapter two. Even look at the part there earlier in chapter two where it says, here's what

44:47

I want the men to do. You know, don't just jump right to the pastor part. Let's let's have a fight about pastors right here.

44:54

But even with with the instruction for men and First Timothy two, eight, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and dissension.

45:05

And so you see the instruction for how men should be leading by example.

45:11

Then you have instructions for women and those instructions all deal with submission. They need to adorn themselves in proper clothing with modesty and self -restraint by means of good works, not showing themselves off in what it is that they wear, but they they show themselves as doers of good works as proper for women professing godliness.

45:31

And a woman must learn in quietness in all submission. That's verse 11, which we read earlier.

45:36

I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man and then go from there into the qualifications of elders in chapter three.

45:45

This is supposed to be a man of God. And you can see even in those qualifications, we're talking about a man. They're not a woman who is suitable for that office.

45:53

And then what what qualifications he needs to meet in order to be a qualified man to therefore fill that role, which is not going to be every man, but there are certain men that God has appointed would be filling that role and and women are not to do it.

46:11

Right? Yeah. So, yeah, again, just discussions that are going to have to come down to helping them see what scripture says.

46:19

Yeah, that's that's the hard part. That that's where all the work comes in. Yeah, it takes some work and patience and and just step by step.

46:29

You know, right. I wish I could give you, you know, the mad the magic question mark block from Mario Brothers.

46:35

And you can just pound this and they're your magic item comes out. That makes everything right. Right. That's that's not how that's going to work.

46:43

It does take some work. You may have to go to like they're like, since you're picking up pastors, they're pastors of churches and theoretically.

46:54

And so then you go to the church's website and you look up the statement of faith and see if there is one first off.

47:01

And then secondly, if it's on there, then you can say, you know, does this line up with scripture?

47:06

Let's go to scripture and compare. You know, that's a good starting point. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you've got something.

47:11

Then you narrow it down, at least. Exactly. Right. Then it's not just thoughts that are being thrown out all over the place.

47:17

Right. Here's your statement of faith. Here's what scripture says. Do these two things line up? Yeah. That's where a confession comes in handy.

47:24

Oh, yeah. Just start with the confession and be like, hey, we all agree that this confession works for for us all.

47:29

But does this work for the pastors we're choosing? Right. So. OK, this this next question is another voicemail.

47:37

And once again, if you want to send us a voicemail, you go to www .utt .com. There's the menu bar across the top of the page.

47:45

Click on voicemail and you can record it right there. And and if you manage to catch early enough that you've made a mistake and you want to rerecord it, then you can delete what you just recorded and try again.

47:57

But it sounds like Roberto had. No, I need to I need to add. Yeah. On to the question that I had.

48:03

So you can do that, too. Yeah. And hopefully we'll see both of them. But this one is from Brian.

48:08

So here's the here's the other question that we got. Hi, Pastor Gabe and Becky. Thank you for your ministry.

48:14

I have some questions regarding egalitarianism and its trajectory towards affirming LGBTQ ideology.

48:21

I forgot the episode. You mentioned this, but you said that a woman preaching or the act of it is a sin.

48:27

So would that mean that a woman preacher is living in an unrepentant sin? Is that something to be concerned for the state of their soul?

48:36

The second is regarding the trajectory towards affirming LGBTQ. Why do you think that is?

48:42

You brought up the Lutheran denomination and an ex -Southern Baptist church that began ordaining LGBT people.

48:49

Why do you think there is a trajectory shown in history? And do you think that individuals who hold to an egalitarian position would eventually end up affirming

48:58

LGBTQ ideology? And the final question is related to the second.

49:04

Assuming that egalitarians are our brothers in Christ and LGBTQ professing Christians are not,

49:11

I was wondering what is the belief along that trajectory that egalitarians would have to accept to step outside of orthodoxy that leads them away from the faith and into LGBT affirming and not a

49:24

Christian? I know that last question has a lot of assumptions, but I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.

49:30

Thank you again. Yeah, that's a lot there. That is a lot to unpack.

49:35

And we saved this question for the very end, and now we're out of time. No, I'm just kidding.

49:41

So the article that I wrote on this, and this might be what you're remembering, Brian. There was an article that I did that was called,

49:47

Women Pastors are a Fundamental Problem for Southern Baptists. And I wrote that article in 2021. There was also an audio version of that article that was on the podcast.

49:56

A lot of the things that you're asking there sound like things that I said in that article. Okay. Because I talked about the trajectory of other denominations that have accepted women pastors.

50:06

And you see, even among those churches in the Southern Baptist Convention, or used to be a part of the

50:11

Southern Baptist Convention, those churches that used to be part of the SBC that left the SBC and started ordaining women, it was only a matter of time before they then started affirming

50:21

LGBTQ in the church, and even appointing LGBTQ teachers, or those that would say, pastors or whatnot, that would say that they're on the, what would you call it, the spectrum?

50:33

They're on the spectrum of the LGBTQ movement. They claim to be one of those letters, or they're in the acrostic or whatever.

50:40

So take, for example, First Baptist Church of Greenville, South Carolina. This is the church where the

50:47

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary began. We're talking SBTS, which is now located in Louisville, Kentucky.

50:54

It wasn't always in Louisville, Kentucky. Okay. It started at First Baptist Church in Greenville, South Carolina, and then eventually moved to Louisville.

51:02

So there's a disconnect just because what happened at FBC Greenville doesn't reflect on SBTS.

51:09

Right. But that church left the SBC in 1999.

51:15

They disaffiliated themselves. They had started hiring and ordaining women in 1989.

51:22

So for 10 years, from 89 to 99, they were part of the Southern Baptist Convention and had been ordaining women.

51:29

But they left the convention in 1999. Fifteen years later, in 2014, so this was just 10 years ago now, they issued a statement allowing for the ordination of anyone identifying as LGBTQ.

51:43

So in less than 25 years, you have a historic Southern Baptist Church that went from ordaining women to ordaining sodomites, lesbians, and transvestites.

51:54

So you see this pattern. Just what was it last month where we had the

52:00

United Methodist Church annual meeting? I can't remember what they call their gathering.

52:07

I don't think it's quite annually either. But anyway, at their meeting, they voted to allow

52:15

LGBTQ persons to be ordained as priests. And they've been ordaining women into the pastorate for decades.

52:22

Yeah. So you just see this. It goes from egalitarianism into full -throated sexual immorality and endorsing sins that God has promised that He will judge.

52:33

And according to Romans 1 .32, although they know the righteous requirement of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but they give hearty approval to those who practice them.

52:46

Yeah. There's a very scary promise of judgment there in Romans 1 for people that either do these things or affirm these things.

52:54

And you've got entire denominations now that don't even tremble before God anymore regarding these matters.

53:01

And it starts with breaking a couple of rules. And it happened decades ago.

53:08

This doesn't happen overnight. It's always a slow fade. But the enemy manages to get in the door and convince them, this passage, maybe it means something else.

53:19

Yeah. And you see the trajectory regarding egalitarianism that eventually gets to this point.

53:24

They start ordaining women as pastors, and then it's only a matter of time. And this is not 100 % all the time.

53:32

Right. Because, like, for example, somebody may come forward to me and say, well, the Wesleyans or the

53:37

Nazarenes also ordain women, and they're not LGBTQ approving. I'm just going to say give it some time.

53:43

Yeah. Because I do know Wesleyan churches and Nazarene churches that are LGBTQ approving. That's true.

53:49

Maybe it's not the entire denomination, but you just give it some time. Yeah. And so, anyway,

53:54

I can't 100 % say that happens every time. But most of the time, yes. I've seen it happen among mainline

54:01

Lutherans, mainline Presbyterians, the USPCA, or the PCUSA.

54:07

Yeah. Whichever one. And then the UMC, the

54:12

Methodists. One of the most major schisms that's happened in a Protestant denomination ever in the history of Protestantism just happened with the

54:22

United Methodist Church. The biggest schism that we've certainly observed in our lifetime, where about a third of the denomination broke away before we got to this annual meeting, where it was certain that they were going to accept and start approving

54:38

LGBTQ leaders. Well, once you think that the Bible says something, like, it's—

54:46

Once you're convinced it says something it doesn't say. Well, I was thinking more of the

54:52

Bible was old, and so it's not for today. And so once you think that, then you start thinking that and applying that to everywhere in the

55:02

Bible. Sure. And then how does this relate to today? Well, I feel like it relates to this, and I feel like it meant this, even though it really doesn't say that.

55:15

And then you can just start picking out any verse that you want out of context and be like, oh,

55:20

I feel like this today. Well, with the churches that are egalitarian, which means they will appoint women as pastors.

55:27

A woman can do anything that a man can do. And so those churches that are egalitarian, whenever they make those arguments about 1

55:34

Timothy 2, 11, and 12, which forbids women from being appointed as pastors, almost always—in fact,

55:42

I don't think I've encountered an egalitarian church that did not make this argument. Almost always they say, that applied to that church then or those people then, and it doesn't apply to us today, exactly what you're saying.

55:55

And so, yeah, they start making exactly that argument. Well, that was a long time ago. That was just those people.

56:01

That was just in Ephesus. That was just that church because, you know what? These women were very assertive and authoritarian, and they were rising up.

56:09

And Paul said, no, no, no, you got to calm them down. So it was just regarding that circumstance, but it doesn't involve us today.

56:16

You'll find these constant excuses. It begins with a quarrel over words. And this was what

56:21

I just preached this past Sunday. This is the most common form of false teaching, the most common form.

56:27

And this is almost where every major doctrinal error begins. It's a quarrel over words.

56:33

I believe it means this. So, you know, who are you to prove me wrong? You take the natural, ordinary, clear meaning of words, and you start making them mean something else so that you can justify whatever sin or behavior.

56:48

You want to practice, and you want God to be in agreement with me. Yeah. And that's why we see that trajectory.

56:55

Why does egalitarianism eventually lead to LGBTQism? It's because you are dismissing the gender roles that God has created and assigned.

57:05

And once you say, this is not just specifically for a man, but even a woman can do it, well, then you're going to continue to take that further and further down the road until you don't even have men and women at all.

57:16

What difference does gender even make? A man can become a woman, and a woman can become a man.

57:22

Or neither. Or neither at all. They can be just a blank flesh bag.

57:30

That's such a weird term. That's pretty much all they are. They're genderless and nonsensical.

57:38

We just give up reason and logic in order to justify our perverse sins.

57:44

That's where this goes. So that's why you see that happen on specifically this issue, the ordination of women pastors that eventually leads to acceptance of all other sexual perversions.

57:57

Because if it doesn't matter that God created a man to do this and a woman to do this, and a woman can't do what a man is supposed to do, and a man can't do what a woman is supposed to do.

58:08

Then you're changing the Bible from the beginning. Right. You're going all the way back to Genesis 1. Yeah. We're going to wipe all that out, and we're going to write it our way.

58:16

And that's why it eventually gets to... And then God lets you eventually. Yeah, right. Turns you over to your depraved mind.

58:22

Yeah. Which is also in... And that's even scarier. Yeah. Also in Romans 1. Now, was there something else about Brian's question

58:30

I haven't gotten to? I guess this is the downside to voicemail, that you can't look at the email question.

58:37

Oh, yeah. And make sure that you got everything. Did I get everything? Yeah. So what was the other thing that he asked about?

58:43

I think it was toward the beginning. I answered the second question first. Yeah. So I think it was, is a woman pastor in unrepentant sin?

58:52

Oh, yeah. That's what it was. Something like that? Right. So if there is a woman pastor, is she in unrepentant sin?

58:59

Right. Well, certainly. I mean, if you walk into a church, a woman standing at the pulpit and preaching, you're observing sin.

59:08

She's sinning as she stands there preaching and leading the congregation, and the entire congregation is sinning by sitting in subjection to that.

59:16

And nobody's standing up and going, guys, why are we doing this? This is exactly opposed to what God's word says with regarding the role of a pastor.

59:24

And it's not just the office, but even the function of that office. She is not to teach or have authority over a man.

59:31

Rather, she is to remain quiet. Paul just doesn't simply say she can't be a pastor. He even lists the function of the office.

59:38

Yeah. She can't even function in that particular position. So if she then gets confronted and approached and says, look, you're sinning.

59:45

You're disobeying what God has expressly said in his word. Christ, through his apostle, this is his intention for his church, and you're disobeying it.

59:53

And she persists and says, no. The Holy Spirit has filled me to do this.

01:00:00

Am I going to deny the Holy Spirit? He's given me this gift to be able to do this, and so I need to be doing it.

01:00:07

And the reality is she's not listening to the Holy Spirit. She's rejecting the Spirit, because the

01:00:13

Spirit's not going to contradict himself. Right. The Spirit is not going to give the woman a passion to become a pastor when the

01:00:19

Spirit, in the guidance of the writing of his word, has already said, no, she can't be a pastor.

01:00:26

Right. So there's not going to be a contradiction there. One of you is wrong, and I'm going to side with the

01:00:32

Scripture on this one. Yeah. And so if after being confronted about it, she continues in this unrepentant sin, then where does she stand in the eternal scheme of things?

01:00:43

Well, my answer to that question would be, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, this is not a salvific issue, and you'll hear that said a lot.

01:00:51

Why are we arguing over this anyway if it doesn't even have to do with salvation? It's not a salvific issue, but it is a clear command, and this is a clear disobedience to that command.

01:01:04

And so I would be very concerned about the state of her soul. You know, this comes to the Apostle Paul saying in 2

01:01:10

Corinthians 13, test yourselves, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Yeah.

01:01:16

And if she's unwilling to do that, then I would tremble for her. I can't say one way or the other whether she's really saved or not.

01:01:26

I've heard women that are in this state of rebellion still be able to articulate the gospel, call out sin, tell people to repent, follow

01:01:37

Christ, and maybe that woman is perfectly secure in the kingdom of God, has not lost faith or has shown herself to be apostate or anything of that nature.

01:01:51

But she is leading people astray. God will have mercy on her, but there are many that are going to come after her that are going to think, hey, she disobeyed the scripture, why can't

01:02:00

I? And then they're going to take their disobedience to the next level.

01:02:06

Yeah, exactly. It'll be even worse than what she was doing. Yeah. And this was kind of like with Solomon, for example.

01:02:13

So Solomon had built high places to false gods to please his many wives, his many pagan wives.

01:02:21

God says to Solomon, because you've done this wicked thing, I'm going to tear the kingdom apart, not in your days, but in your son's day.

01:02:28

And even at the end of Ecclesiastes, we get the sense that Solomon did repent. There was still consequences for his actions.

01:02:36

There were consequences for David's actions. Yeah. We don't get the sense that Solomon was condemned, but you do see the effects that happened after the sin that he committed against God.

01:02:50

None of the kings of Israel, none of the Northern kingdom kings were godly men.

01:02:56

None of them were. 20 wicked kings. In Judah, there were also 20 kings.

01:03:03

Eight of them were righteous. Oh, right. So out of 40 kings, you had only eight righteous kings.

01:03:10

And this is the result of the sin of what Solomon did. And you'll see that happen even with this egalitarian question.

01:03:17

Women will start rising into the position of pastor. It doesn't necessarily mean that that church is full of unsaved people, but it will eventually get to that point.

01:03:27

Yeah. And you have the warning of Christ in Revelation 2 and 3, where he says to the churches, repent and return to me, or I'm going to remove your lampstand from you.

01:03:36

And that's what we've seen happen in the United Methodist denomination. Their lampstand has been removed.

01:03:42

The gospel's not there. The spirit of God is not there. Now, there are still some individual churches.

01:03:48

Most of them are in Africa, not in the United States. But there are still some solid Methodist churches that are trying to—

01:03:55

Still trying to hold on. Yeah, still trying to turn the tide in their denomination. And it will be up to God as to whether or not he will grant repentance to those who have gone so far.

01:04:06

I pray that those pastors remain steadfast, and perhaps they are able to persuade their denomination to repent and come back to the

01:04:15

Lord. But as the whole, as a whole for the denomination, especially on the

01:04:20

United States side of the UMC, their lampstand's been removed. The spirit of God is no longer with them.

01:04:27

And doesn't he have a third question? Was there a third part of that question? I think so.

01:04:33

I think it was the last two parts kind of went together. So it was like, how does egalitarian eventually get to LGBTQ?

01:04:40

And if we can look at an egalitarian as a brother or sister in the Lord, then what doctrine is it that they have to accept before they're eventually—we're like, okay, yeah, they're not walking with God at all anymore.

01:04:54

Oh, yeah. Okay. I think it depends. I think that situation's going to vary. Yeah. I don't know where you end up getting to where, okay, now you've finally crossed this line and you're no longer— because that could manifest itself in a number of different ways.

01:05:08

Yeah. So I don't know for sure. I mean, we can look at the egalitarian position, and we can know that on its face, it's sinful.

01:05:15

It's in rebellion against God. Complimentarianism is not, and neither is biblical patriarchy.

01:05:23

Right. Those positions are biblical positions. But egalitarianism is not.

01:05:29

It is on its face a liberal position. And as J. Gresham Machen had said, liberalism is not biblical

01:05:36

Christianity. Yeah. So there is a rebellion that's going on there, but how far does it go before that person has stepped outside of orthodoxy and is no longer a brother or sister in the

01:05:45

Lord? I think that's going to be on a case -by -case basis. I don't know that there's necessarily a blanket answer to that that's going to say, once they've crossed this line, then they're out.

01:05:58

That's—not for us to judge the heart, but you see the fruit. Yeah. So, like you said, it's going to be situational.

01:06:04

Right. I agree. Now, be in prayer for the Southern Baptist Convention, because coming up next month, they're going to be voting on the law amendment.

01:06:12

Mm -hmm. And basically, the law amendment is to say that if there is a church that has a woman as a pastor, whether she's a lead pastor or an associate pastor, but she is filling that office and that function of pastor, if there's a woman pastor on staff, that church is not in friendly cooperation with the

01:06:32

SBC and should be removed. Now, the law amendment passed in New Orleans, but it has to pass twice.

01:06:39

So this is the second time. And this is coming up in Indianapolis next month. Now, I've heard rumors that somebody is going to try to add an amendment to the amendment.

01:06:49

They're going to try to bring forward a friendly amendment. Okay. So that the amendment changes, essentially. Well, it doesn't need changed.

01:06:55

It's fine the way that it is. Mm -hmm. But in doing this, and if they convince the convention to accept it, which

01:07:01

I think that a friendly amendment to the amendment only needs a majority. Right. So it can be 51%.

01:07:07

Okay. In order for the amendment to pass altogether, it has to be two -thirds. It needs to be 66%. Gotcha.

01:07:13

But if they add a friendly amendment to the amendment, well, then the clock resets. And then it has to pass twice again.

01:07:20

It has to pass in Indianapolis, and then it has to pass again next year, which

01:07:26

I think is in New Orleans. I can't remember where the convention is supposed to be in 2025. It was in New Orleans the year before.

01:07:33

No, not New Orleans. Yeah, Orlando. That's what I meant. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other O place. O -R.

01:07:40

Yes. I just wanted to point out, because it's not something that we talked about yet, that all of these families that are concerned about going to churches where there are women pastors and other issues, assuming that if you have children, do understand how this is going to affect them if you continue to go.

01:08:06

They're going to think, oh, well, it's okay to put up with this. It's okay to just ignore this.

01:08:12

It's okay to just, you know, people will be people and accept them the way they are. And if you don't feel that way, you need to let your children know that, you know, it's not okay, and we're trying to help them learn that it's not okay.

01:08:29

And those type of conversations, they're hard conversations to have because children do not have filters when talking with other people, especially during prayer requests.

01:08:39

But it is very important for them to understand early on.

01:08:45

Not, oh, they don't understand yet. You can say it in a very simple way, but to reach them and let them know that, you know, mommy and daddy are not okay with this part.

01:09:02

We love the people and we're going to try to help them through this, you know, by studying the Bible.

01:09:08

And this is what scripture says. If they're old enough, you know, bring them to their own

01:09:13

Bibles and be like, okay, look, this is, this is why we're trying to help them. And, you know, as they get older, you can even have them help in their teen groups or whatever.

01:09:26

Right. So, yeah, if you're going to stay in a church where there is this kind of rebellion that's going on, shepherding your children in understanding, we're not approving of this.

01:09:35

We're trying to change it. You do have to be careful with, you know, where you take your children in their understanding of this.

01:09:41

Cause like you said, they don't have great filters. They don't know. And sometimes might speak or say something that it's not left for them to say, but still shepherding, you're shepherding your children in an understanding of here's what's happening in our church.

01:09:55

Yes. And here's where mommy and daddy are trying to make a difference in our congregation.

01:10:01

And that's with anything. We're talking about the egalitarian question. We've been talking about adultery, but with, with anything that is happening in the church.

01:10:09

Yeah. And, and the, the gifts, cause that was often mentioned. Gifts of the spirit. Yeah. We had mentioned a little bit ago.

01:10:15

Gifts of the spirit. That, that sounds different. The, the charismatic.

01:10:21

Well, it's still gifts of the spirit. But it's, it's the charismatic abuse of the gifts of the spirit.

01:10:27

Okay. I'll accept that. Yeah. Right. Right. That's what we said before. So sometimes, yeah,

01:10:34

I think that we as adults and especially as parents, we'll just kind of approach this as like, you know, well, this is an adult problem.

01:10:40

Right. Definitely. And we won't try to shepherd the children through it or help them to understand what it is that's going on in the church.

01:10:47

Your, your thought processes. They don't know. Right. Haven't noticed. Right. Well, they've noticed.

01:10:53

They've noticed. Yeah. But how do they understand it? That's going to be dependent upon you. And it'll all start clicking together later on in life.

01:11:00

And then they're going to think, oh, well, it was okay. Cause mom and dad didn't do it. You know, like you think back to your childhood and things that, you know, now you're like,

01:11:09

I can't believe that, that, you know, that my parents actually let me watch that or let me have that, or, you know, let me do this or whatever.

01:11:17

And, and then you're like, oh, okay, well that, you know, That's okay for my kids. Yeah. And then you bring it out and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:11:24

I've definitely come into that, you know, watch a certain movie. Then my parents let me watch it like 10.

01:11:31

Yeah. And I'll watch it today. And I'm like, why did my parents let me watch this? Yeah. Well, a lot of our excuse for that.

01:11:38

Yes. A lot of our excuse for that is that the TV, we would watch it on TV where it would cut out all those parts.

01:11:46

Oh yeah. Right. We would watch the network version. So it's like half the. No, there is, there is one movie.

01:11:51

Like one is coming to mind right now that I'm going, why? Like I even,

01:11:57

I even went to my mom and dad who saw the movie and I said, Hey, I'm about to turn this movie on.

01:12:03

Is this okay? Cause I, they even applauded me about it later. I'm so glad. I'm so proud of you,

01:12:08

Gabe, that you came to us and asked us if that movie's okay. Sure. It is. I go back to that movie today and I'm going to know it was not.

01:12:17

I wouldn't let my kids watch. I don't know what you guys were thinking, letting me watch that. But anyway. Yeah.

01:12:23

So, I mean, you came out fine. So it's not the end of the world, but at the same time, you put it together later on in life.

01:12:31

That's right. Like, okay. You know, if you don't have a good head on your shoulders, of course, you think you can get away with everything at that point.

01:12:38

Well, they probably. Yeah. They probably thought I was more mature than I really was. Gabe can handle this movie.

01:12:43

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I don't know that I'd watch it now. Nightmares for weeks. Nope. It wasn't that kind of movie.

01:12:51

Oh, okay. Nevermind. Not asking. I didn't even go looking for horror movies when I was a kid. No. So. I enjoyed them.

01:12:58

Yeah. I didn't at all. I can't watch them anymore. I don't care for them now either, but mostly because they're just bad.

01:13:04

That's true. I mean, really, they just exist to have jump scares. And I don't enjoy that.

01:13:09

I don't watch a movie for you to freak me out over something. Actually, I kind of enjoyed the jump scares.

01:13:17

But then I got to a certain point where I'm like, I can pinpoint when they're going to happen.

01:13:23

I'm like, yeah, just wait. There's this going to happen. Jump scares are cheap. There's this going to happen. Those are cheap scares.

01:13:30

And it's not that hard to do. I can hide behind a door and you can walk in the room and I go, boo. And you'll jump.

01:13:36

You don't even have to hide behind the door. You just walk into the room and I jump. You're stealth mode.

01:13:42

That's true. I'm a ninja during the day and like an absolute klutz at night, apparently.

01:13:48

Approved. Yes. That is truth. Fact check or whatever that is.

01:13:53

Yeah. Fact check. True. Yes. I'll try to come in the room and be quiet at night and I can't do it.

01:13:59

I'm knocking over lamps. I'm like, hey, babe. I'm awake now. Nice of you to come to bed now and wake me up.

01:14:08

So, yeah. Where were we? Okay. Thanks for your question, Brian. Thank you. Sorry. Huge rabbit trap.

01:14:15

Yeah. I think we got through that, though. And once again, if you want to send us a voicemail, www .tt

01:14:21

.com. Voicemail is right there. Email is still the quickest way to get a question to us. And if you email us, then

01:14:27

I'm sure I can go back and look and see that I made sure that I answered the question totally.

01:14:33

When we understand the text at gmail .com. Thanks for listening this week. Hey, to give you kind of an update on our family situation.

01:14:41

Some of you are aware that we have a house in Texas that still hasn't sold. We've been here in Arizona now for six months.

01:14:48

And that house in Texas is still on the market. It was under contract at one point, but then the contract fell through.

01:14:56

We had to put it back on the market in the middle of April sometime. We just dropped the price on it another 9K.

01:15:03

Yeah. So, it's disappointing that we're not going to get what we had originally put it on the market for.

01:15:08

But there are other houses, like the number of houses in our neighborhood that are up for sale. It's double now what it was when we left.

01:15:16

Or more. Or more houses than that. There's a lot of houses now. I was astonished when

01:15:22

I pulled up. I think it was Zillow or something like that. Typed in our address and I saw all the red. Whoa.

01:15:28

Yeah. Where did all these houses come from? So, pray for us that the house sells soon.

01:15:34

We are still paying rent and a mortgage at the same time. It's rough. But God is good.

01:15:40

He is. He has brought us here. He is faithful. Some exciting things happening with the church. Yes. And we're getting closer in that process that I can start talking about it.

01:15:51

A little bit. Yeah. I'll be able to tell you. Here's what's going on in the church and here's how you can either be helping us out or praying for us or something like that.

01:15:59

I'll kind of leak some details out in the weeks to come. But again, our church is Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Casa Grande, Arizona.

01:16:09

We're packed on Sunday morning. Yes. But please come. But please come. We make room.

01:16:15

If there's somebody in the area, we're going to find a chair. We've got a place for you to sit. My office has now become an overflow room.

01:16:21

It has. And it's the O 'Neill family and our family are now packing ourselves into that room.

01:16:28

Uh -huh. And you can still see the stage from my office because it's just right off of the front of the sanctuary.

01:16:37

But yeah, we're doing what we need to do to make sure we've got enough seats for everybody. And it is wonderful to see the growth that God is blessing us with.

01:16:45

Yes. And may we continue as a church to be faithful to the preaching of his word and the care and maturity of his saints.

01:16:54

Let's finish with prayer. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time that we have together to interact with these listeners and answer these questions.

01:17:03

And I thank you for those who had either sent an email or had submitted a voice message.

01:17:09

With the first question that we had, the anonymous contributor, I pray that you would give him wisdom as to what he needs to do with some of these things that are going on in his church.

01:17:20

Sounds like a very 1st Corinthian sort of a situation. And so that he would find the right people in the church to talk to who would be willing to receive that correction and recognize, yes, according to the scriptures, we are not being faithful in the way that we need to be faithful.

01:17:35

And may there be some wonderful fruit by the movement of your spirit in that church. That this congregation would come to a more biblically centered foundation.

01:17:45

I've had to do this in a church before. To bring the church more to a biblical foundation. And so may that blessing be upon this gentleman as he strives for this body that he loves to see the same thing happen in that group.

01:18:01

For the question that had come from Tamara about choosing a church and being a submissive wife to her husband and the way that he spiritually leads his family.

01:18:11

I pray that you give wisdom to her husband, but then also wisdom to Tamara and how she deals with those situations or gets involved in the church that they are a part of.

01:18:22

And then, Lord, from the two voicemail questions that we had, it sounds like that women pastors have become a big problem in so many different places.

01:18:30

But that you give these gentlemen wisdom also and how they lead their friends into an understanding of the truth that we may be in submission to Christ in all things.

01:18:39

The church is the body of Christ. The church is the bride of Christ. And may your Holy Spirit cleanse us and make us new.

01:18:47

That we may be that beautiful bride in splendor that is described in the book of Revelation.

01:18:54

When we are united with Christ forever in glory and then sit down together at the wedding feast of the

01:18:59

Lamb. Until that day comes, we continue to submit to your word and be sanctified by your word.

01:19:07

Made holy in the presence of God in preparation for that great day. Turn us from our sins.

01:19:14

Turn us to your righteousness. And lead us in these things. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen.

01:19:29

Now, what's interesting here is that you have the statement in verse 20 about how Yahweh has rewarded me according to my righteousness.

01:19:38

But, of course, we understand and have often taught. In fact, I taught on the podcast on this very week because we were in Isaiah 61 yesterday.

01:19:47

The righteousness that we have comes not from ourselves but comes from God. So, how is it that the psalmist can say here, because of my righteousness,

01:20:00

Yahweh has dealt bountifully with me according to the cleanness of my hands. You okay there?

01:20:10

I tried to be quick with that swallow and it backfired so bad.

01:20:17

Oh, goodness. I'm sorry. I'm choking.

01:20:25

I was about to say the most profound theological thing you have ever heard. I'm dying.

01:20:32

And it's gone. You just keep on preaching. Oh, goodness.

01:20:39

Oh, goodness. Well, if this was in church, I can ignore it and keep going. I think

01:20:46

I do that pretty well. Yeah, I would be walking out anyway trying to hold it in. But given that it's just me and you in here.

01:20:55

It's a little tougher. Oh, boy.

01:21:02

I'm sorry. Like I said, I tried to hustle that swallow and it backfired. Oh, my goodness.

01:21:10

She can giggle at me. Yeah. I'm sorry. So, let me pick up after the reading.

01:21:16

I'll pick up after the reading. So, say. We might as well start it all over.

01:21:24

We're right at the very beginning. Okay. But say I've gone all the way through verse 24 here.

01:21:30

And I'm just going to pick up like explaining verse 20. Okay. Make sense? Sounds great. All right.

01:21:42

I can't help it. When the Lord calls, the Lord calls and you just die. That was a different charismatic moment than I'm used to,

01:21:50

I think. Not quite the move of the spirit that I grew up around in those charismatic circles.

01:21:59

Obviously, we cannot do anything on our own. Choke on swallowing water.

01:22:06

It's good. It's good. The waters of the Holy Spirit affect everybody in different ways.

01:22:15

I feel like I'm drowning here. I got so much.

01:22:20

So much cleansing of the spirit. I'm a little bit clipped. Good times.