November 22, 2017 Show with Ashley Null on “Reformation Anglicanism: A Vision For Today’s Global Communion”

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this day before Thanksgiving, November 22nd, 2017.

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I'm so delighted to have back on my program someone who has been one of my most fascinating guests, especially because the topic that he has addressed and will address is something that is not frequently heard discussed on evangelical

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Christian radio. The subject is Anglicanism and today we are specifically going to be addressing a

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Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, which is also the title of a book that is in print, thanks to our friends at Crossway.

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And I'm speaking specifically of my guest today, Dr. Ashley Null, who has his

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B .D. and Ph .D. from Cambridge University, is MDiv and STM from Yale University, and he's an

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Episcopal minister, a speaker, a scholar, an author of Thomas Cranmer's Doctrine of Repentance, which is the last subject we discussed, if not the one before that, but it has been quite a while since we've had

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Dr. Null on. He is also the canon theologian for the Diocese of Western Kansas, the theological advisor for the

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ACNA Diocese of the Carolinas, and the canon theologian to the

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Anglican Diocese of Egypt, having received Fulbright, Guggenheim, National Endowment for the

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Humanities, and German Research Council awards. And as I said earlier, just a few moments ago, we are going to be discussing a new book that he contributed to,

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Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, after a long absence,

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Dr. Ashley Null. Thank you, Chris, it's a joy to be back. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter.

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And before we even go into the main theme, which is your book, Reformation Anglicanism, I'd like to know something, even though you may have said this in one of our previous interviews, it's been such a long time and we have so many new audience members listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, that there is a very strong likelihood that many people in my audience are discovering you for the first time today, but I'd like to hear something about your own upbringing as a child, what kind of a religious upbringing you had, if any, and how the

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Lord providentially drew you to himself and saved you, and then also how you became so highly involved as a

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Reformed Anglican. So are you betting that an can have a born -again experience?

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Yes, I'm pretty sure that you could. Well in my case

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I can, that's true, but I would not assume that of every Anglican theologian. I grew up in Salina, Kansas, and I was baptized as a child into the

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Episcopal Church, and grew up at the Cathedral Parish there, and so I am a cradle

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Episcopalian, but my mother was a linguist, and she went down to the

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Summer Institute of Linguistics in Norman, Oklahoma one summer to improve her for further training, and when we went down and visited her, she herself had grown up Southern Baptist, and we went to a rural

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Oklahoma Baptist Church where the preacher there gave a great sermon that after,

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I don't know, 35 years, I still remember the punchline, which was something like, I just want to be a lapdog for Jesus.

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Where if he puts his hand over there, I just want to put my head over there to let him scratch it back and forth, and it was just a wonderful message about...

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Dr. Null, are you still there? Yes, it was just a wonderful message about wanting to get to know

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Jesus. As a good Episcopalian, if he talked about getting saved,

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I wouldn't have had any idea what he was talking about, but he just said if you want to get to know

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Jesus better. So tell us more about how you knew that you were a child of God, that you knew that Jesus Christ was your

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Savior, and what eventually drew you back into Episcopalianism or Anglicanism.

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Oh, I never left. Oh, I see, but it was a Baptist minister, though, that had some kind of significant...

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Well, that was a clear turning point for me where it was articulated that one can have intimacy with Jesus, and that's what was so wonderful about...

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What may sound like a very corny line did not sound corny at all to me. It was a vivid image of wanting to be close, like sparrows nesting in the temple, the idea that one could draw close to God Almighty and find peace and security and strength and courage there.

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And the next year, I was confirmed as Episcopalians do, but I saw that as a lot...

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And that afternoon, they just happened to be having a water immersion baptism service, and I went down the aisle, said the prayer, and then got baptized again, as one does in the

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Baptist tradition. And then the next year, I was confirmed and then began to look out for Christian Bible fellowship in addition to my ongoing commitment of worshiping at the

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Cathedral, being an acolyte, and being deeply involved in church affairs. There was the last remnant of the

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Jesus people. I don't know if you remember them, Chris. Oh yeah, I was a young boy in the late 60s.

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I was born in 62, so I do have some familiarity with the

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Jesus people and, you know, growing up in the 70s and so on. They had an outreach to college students in my little town, and we, basically a group of high school students, got involved in that as an outreach ministry as well.

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And so I was deeply involved in the Episcopal Church and in what was called the

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Solvent Rock Jesus Fellowship. And bless his heart, the dean of my Cathedral came down and went to me with one of the meetings to check it out and see if it was okay.

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And actually, the Bible teacher we had was, especially as I get older, a remarkably balanced, mature 24 -year -old who, although it was a charismatic fellowship house, he was very solid and really taught us a whole lot about how to discern the

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Spirit, but not to get caught up in...well,

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if you were part of that era, you understand how many people got off into deception. And he kept us grounded in the

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Word and in the power of the Spirit, making a difference in our lives. And so I always just combined them, because that was my experience.

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And nevertheless, I'm not just Anglicanism, but have been deeply shaped by both

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Scripture and the Spirit working through Scripture. And when

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I was in London, working with a member of HDB, the Alpha People congregation, which is again an

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Anglican Church. So in my experience, one never had to choose between the two. So was the type of Anglicanism or Episcopalianism that you were raised in more biblically faithful than you may commonly see today?

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And many of our listeners, when they hear the term either

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Episcopal or Anglican, they very often will jump to one of two conclusions.

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They will either think that you are an Oxford movement, Romish type of Anglican or Episcopalian, that could be barely distinguished from a

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Roman Catholic, or they will think that you are an apostate or a liberal, depending upon who is being told that you are

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Episcopal or Anglican. If somebody is a conservative evangelical, they may just think that you are a person sold out to the left wing and that you really don't even take seriously the

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Scriptures. But there is that group. They say that holding their

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J .I. Packer and John Stott books in their hands. But you are a

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Bible -believing conservative, I'm assuming you might use that term, but you are a historically faithful Anglican as well, because I know that you adhere to the 39

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Articles and you uphold Thomas Cranmer as one of your heroes of the

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Reformation, being that you are actually, to my knowledge, one of the foremost living experts on Thomas Cranmer.

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Well those kinds of titles are always deceptive, but I have done a lot of work in Cranmer research.

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And I know that you're too humble to accept my compliment, but to answer the question that I had, what branch of Episcopalianism were you raised in?

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I know where you are, basically, theologically now, but what was the

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Episcopalianism or Anglicanism of your youth? I was raised in a modern

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Anglo -Catholic parish, and there was a defining moment when we got a new

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Acolyte Master who suggested that, and that's being polite, that the purpose of Acolyte practice and the purpose of being an

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Acolyte was not to worship God, but to do the ritual right. And even as a 14 -15 year old boy, that seemed to be a bit strange, because I thought the whole purpose of me being

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Acolyte was worshiping God. Years later, I spoke with a deeply

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Anglo -Catholic Bishop about this incident, and said, I'm sure I got it wrong, that what he meant was it's about learning to worship within the beauty of the tradition, and therefore learning the ritual.

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And he said, well, actually, I knew that priest, and he caused me more pain than anyone else, and I'm sure you absolutely got him right, unfortunately.

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That, though, was actually a shock to my system, because I was being nurtured in other ways of building my faith.

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I began to build my faith from other sources, and then express it in my

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Sunday worship in the Episcopal Church, which then set me up to be a

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Low Church Anglican. And when was it that you realized God had placed a call upon your life to actually be an

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Episcopalian or Anglican minister? Dr.

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Null, are you there? Yes, I have this incredibly irritating habit of pausing before I say something, which is, if you see me live, you can watch the contortions of my face, but obviously on radio, the fear is, oh no, the transatlantic satellite has gone out.

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Well, that's one of the reasons why Dr. Sinclair Ferguson rarely does interviews, especially live ones, because whenever you, even in a casual conversation, are speaking with him, if you're asking him anything serious, it usually takes 30 seconds for him to respond, because he likes to very seriously consider his words before he speaks.

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Well, I do remember our last conversation, very vividly, you asked me something that I paused, was pausing to think about, and even as I was trying to think of what

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I was going to say, the thought occurred to me, this is radio, he's going to be freaking out and start saying something.

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But when was it that you realized you had a call to enter into the ministry? Well, when

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I was younger, I wanted to be a politician and to try to make a difference that way, but as I kept trying to pursue that,

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I kept getting tripped up, and it became clear to me,

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I would first try to bargain with God, as one does, when one doesn't understand how these things work, and so I was going to be both a lawyer and a priest, but in the end, when

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I was admitted into school, it became quite clear that that's where I needed to put my full resources.

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You know, there is a great good that happens for being involved in even something as dirty as politics.

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One can make a real positive contribution to one's community, and there's many other ways which one can make positive contributions to the communities, but there's something very special about having a ringside seat as you watch

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God pastor his people. He doesn't pastor them like you think he would, and certainly not on your timetable, but when

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God pulls together the strings of people's lives, and you see where he's been at work, and what he's been leading them to, and the beauty that he has when he makes something beautiful out of the broken edges and bad decisions of our lives, it takes your breath away.

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It slowly dawned on me what a privilege I had to be called to that.

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It was no hardship to concentrate on ministry. Well, some of our non -Episcopalian or non -Anglican listeners may be wondering about some of the titles and roles that you have.

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First of all, what is a canon theologian? That means he assists the bishop with theological matters, sort of as if you're in a quiz show and you need a lifeline person.

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And the specialty of that person is theology. Yeah, you are serving the role of Thomas Cranmer himself,

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I guess, in some sense, as he served King Henry VIII. Well, exactly.

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Thomas Cranmer is a human being, and therefore has flaws like anyone else, and is a creature of the 16th century.

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So not everything that made sense in his day would make sense for us today.

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But I do think that he was born at a good time and a good context, and God worked through him to create a really balanced sense of the reapproachment, the re -seizing of the gospel of grace and gratitude that Paul has expounded so clearly in Scripture for us, as how one understands and lives out the consequences of Jesus' Incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection.

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And helping bishops and laypeople grasp what that gospel was and continues to be is a source of great joy, because it is the gospel.

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It has the power and does change lives. Amen. And one thing that I failed to mention in introducing you, because it was not on the crossway biosketch of you, but you are, and have been for the last decade at least, a professor in Berlin.

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If you could tell us something about that. Oh, I am not a professor in Berlin. I have a research position in Berlin.

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And in Berlin, that's an important distinction. I have gone, in the academic world, the world of doing pure research.

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I only teach lightly. And the German Research Council has kindly created a research post to enable me to pursue full -time my research interest.

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And I'm based at Humboldt University for that. And is there a denominational or religious affiliation to the university?

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Um, Ja and Nein. Did you just combine

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Ja and Nein? Yeah, yeah. That's a very standard yes and no.

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Humboldt University is a state university, therefore it's a secular university. But in Germany, there are contracts between the states and various religious groups.

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And so the seminary for the

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Landeskirche, which is independent from the

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German government, but has a close working relationship with the German government.

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The English equivalent of a state church, even though it's not established, it has a contract with Humboldt University to provide a theological seminary for its students.

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So the theology faculty in Humboldt, a secular university, actually reflects the

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Berlin -Brandenburg Landeskirche. Now, when someone thinks of Germany, I'm assuming that Anglicanism isn't the first thing that pops into their head.

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It hasn't been the first thing that ever popped into my head. How did you providentially wind up there in the role that you are serving, being an

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Anglican? Well, first of all, there has been, in the last 30 to 40 years, there's been a lack of cross -fertilization, shall we say, between English Reformation studies and German Reformation studies.

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So part of it was a desire to bring those two different worlds together, and I'm a product of English studies on the

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English Reformation. And then my particular work is on the theological progression of Thomas Cranmer, who begins very clearly in the

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Lutheran camp and then makes some significant changes, i .e.,

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when I say he begins in the Lutheran camp, when he becomes a Protestant in middle age, he begins in the

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Lutheran camp and then, at least on the sacraments, becomes fully

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Reformed. And therefore, because of the 500th anniversary of Luther for the last 10 years, the

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German government has been supporting research into the

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Reformation, and they are very interested in how that has worked out in its relationship both with Henry VIII and the

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Church of England in general. And therefore, they've been supportive of the work.

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I've also been involved in some interesting new developments, and they have been very kind enough to be eager to support that.

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And some of these new developments, I'm assuming, involve Thomas Cranmer, because when you wrote

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Thomas Cranmer's Doctrine of Repentance, weren't there things uncovered about Cranmer that were not previously widely known?

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Well, I think one can say there's two different things.

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First of all, the Reformation Anglicanism book puts a new emphasis on the importance of the role of affections in the course of the

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English Reformation, which, if you want, we can talk more about that. Yes, definitely. But secondly, identifying some new documents that have not been really studied before.

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For example, there was a prayer book that Martin Butzer—it's all very complicated, but Martin Butzer wrote a commentary on the prayer book in manuscript form that was not published until 1577.

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A very observant professor of English in France noticed that there was a 1549 prayer book with annotations that mentioned this treatise by Butzer, and suggested that someone should take a look at that.

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Because he was a professor of English, he did not feel that was his field. And for 20 years, no one bothered to go to Paris and take a look at it.

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And being based in Berlin, that's not a difficult thing for me to do to go to Paris. And taking a look at that particular prayer book, it's actually very clear that it's a very important document.

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It's the only thing that we have from the prayer book revision committee that produced the 1552 prayer book, which may seem rather dull and uninteresting, except that the 1552 prayer book was a conscious attempt by Cranmer to have a much more

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Protestant version of the Holy Communion service. And therefore, the transition between the two is highly debated.

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And this book sheds immense light. Those sorts of things spark new interest in the field that you think everything has been looked at, when in fact, there's always something waiting, more light waiting to break forth.

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And I know that we have discussed this in greater length in previous interviews, but I think it might be, at least in summary form, helpful for our listeners to understand who

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Thomas Cranmer was. I know that he was the Archbishop of Canterbury. He served under the reign of King Henry VIII.

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And of course, you will have many Roman Catholics or non -Anglicans mocking the

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English contribution to the Reformation because they will relegate it to the lust of a man who merely wanted to get divorced and remarried.

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And they will focus solely, typically, these people speaking in ignorance, they will focus solely on King Henry VIII, who even

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Thomas Cranmer did not view as a regenerate person until the time of his death, if I'm remembering correctly.

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But if you could tell us something in summary about Thomas Cranmer and his contribution to the

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Reformation, including the 39 Articles of Religion. Oh my gosh!

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You've given me a 30 -minute assignment in three minutes! Well, in fact, if you could...

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Let's take it one piece at a time. If you could start that because I don't want to interrupt you mid -sentence. If you could start it when we return from our first break.

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So we're going to go to our first station break right now. And if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. Ashley Null and our discussion on Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion.

28:33

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. And welcome back.

33:08

Our guest today, if you just tuned us in, is Dr. Ashley Null. He is an

33:13

Episcopal minister, speaker, scholar, author of Thomas Cramner's Doctrine of Repentance. And today we are discussing a new book that he has contributed to,

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Reformation Anglicanism, a Vision for Today's Global Communion, which is a book published by Crossway involving a number of contributing authors.

33:32

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

33:39

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

33:47

U .S .A. And only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And Dr. Null, right before the break,

33:52

I was asking you to give us a summary of who Thomas Cramner was because there is a very strong likelihood that many non -Anglicans and non -Episcopalians listening do not know of him.

34:06

And it is a tragedy that those who love the Reformation and consider themselves heirs of the

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Reformation would be ignorant of this great figure. And one of the reasons, Dr.

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Null, that I asked you to give a summary of him is because I think it is key to understanding where you are in your

34:29

Anglican faith and those who would be your brethren in a similar understanding of not only

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Biblical theology but Anglican theology because as you would, I'm sure, readily agree that today it seems that very few

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Anglicans and Episcopalians, at least comparatively, would mirror

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Thomas Cramner in his theology and interpretations of the

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Scriptures. I think what you would discover is there would be a variety of views of what

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Cramner taught to match and support a variety of ways of being

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Anglican. And the Reformation Anglicanism, Anglicanism that is deeply shaped by the

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Protestant Reformation and the authority of Scripture, that has not been strong in America for the last 125 years.

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But globally, it is very strong. As half -jokingly, but half -seriously pointed out,

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J .I. Packer and John Stott are Anglicans. They're not Baptists. And therefore, what may sound strange in America is actually a peculiarity of what happened in North America, but is not reflective of the global Anglican communion.

36:00

And the particular book in which you're referring to is, in fact, a book done with authors from all around the communion, one born in Pakistan, one born in Nigeria, one born in Australia, and two from the

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United States. But going back to Cramner, he was, other than that brief period when he, out of fear for his life, recanted his

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Protestant beliefs and returned to Rome, and then would later recant his recantation, and while being burned alive, or before being burned alive, requested that his hand that signed the recantation be burned first.

36:43

But he spent most of his time as the Archbishop of Canterbury as a

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Protestant, correct, as a Reformational Christian. Well, I would love to nuance your depiction of Cramner in his last days, but do you have the patience in this format?

37:06

First of all, we have to put Henry VIII in context, respond to your common but erroneous—

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I mean, what you've admitted is not a correct view of Henry's lust creating a new church.

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That wasn't my view, by the way. I was saying— You were clear that it wasn't your view.

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But putting that in context, and then putting Cramner in the context of that.

37:36

Yeah, that's beautiful. And there's four parts that we're going to have to deal with to put

37:42

Henry appropriately in this context, but I'll pause after each one if you have a specific question on that part, but there'll still be others coming.

37:49

Is that okay? That's completely fine. Okay, great. To understand

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Henry VIII, you have to understand what was spiritually happening in England in the 15th century, what was happening academically on the continent in the 15th and 16th centuries.

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Then you have to understand Henry's own particular political situation, and then the political situation on the continent.

38:25

And all of those factors are actually important in creating what is the English Reformation.

38:31

So first, what was going on spiritually in England in the 15th century?

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There was a rather eccentric, if one might be kind, hermit named

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Richard Rule, who gathered quite a following through his writings, where he encouraged people to spend as much time possible contemplating

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God by meditating on the scriptures. And he was convinced that if you meditated on the scriptures, that you would experience a burning love for God, and that that love for God would be the power to enable you to live a good and godly life.

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But for Richard Rule, as I said, he was a bit eccentric, and he not only thought that one would have a burning love for God, but not merely metaphorically, but it could also be sensible.

39:37

And that you could even hear angel choirs singing, and he has a very sensuous, i .e.

39:45

the experience of the senses kind of Christianity, but deeply grounded in the idea that the

39:56

Holy Spirit would work through God's word to bring about these transformative experiences.

40:04

And for him, the name, the holy name of Jesus encapsulates the whole scriptural narrative, and therefore saying the name of Jesus and praying the

40:19

Jesus prayer in and of itself has all that power of the whole scriptural narrative to create a burning love that would change you from the inside out to be a follower of God.

40:32

He then deeply influences a man named Walter Hilton, who writes a book called The Scale of Perfection.

40:38

Hilton, and we're talking, both of these guys are writing, Richard Rule dies about 1350.

40:50

Hilton is writing about 30 years later. He's a lawyer, so he's far more sensible, and does not encourage exotic, ecstatic experiences based on your senses.

41:03

But he again emphasizes the monastic call to meditate on God's word, to experience a transforming power of love from the inside out.

41:18

And Hilton says that rather than these extravagant things of rule, you should use this newfound experience of a burning love for God to really strive for moral perfection.

41:34

So the transforming power of the gospel will work through your affections to give you a love to enable you to work hard in pursuing a good and godly life of good works.

41:52

This is then picked up by the tutors, Lady Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's grandmother, and she herself emphasizes the importance of this school of piety, and publishes

42:15

Walter Hilton's book, A Scale of Perfection, and a letter that he wrote on something called the mixed life tradition.

42:25

Chris, do you have a quiet time? You mean in my daily life? Yeah. Yes. Do you realize that means that you are a disciple of Walter Hilton and Gregory the

42:37

Great? Wow. Fascinating. Basically, Gregory the Great himself was a monk who had to leave the life of contemplation to take on the worldly responsibilities of running the diocese of Rome.

42:52

He was an early pope, and he wanted to get good people to help the church.

42:58

But the great tension was, why leave a life of contemplation in order to take on all the pressures of the world?

43:07

Because one of the reasons why you leave to become a monk is to leave the pressures of the world behind.

43:13

And he points out that, of course, that's what Jesus did. He mixed times of quiet reflection with service in the world.

43:24

And the time of quiet reflection will give you the spiritual power and energy to carry your responsibilities, and your service of others in the world will always make sure that your quiet time, your piety isn't just navel -gazing, but actually is enabling you to be a faithful follower and both reinforce

43:52

God's call on your life. Hilton picks this up and basically says, when a wealthy magnate wants to, quote, convert, which means in the mid -ages, leaving the world and becoming a monk, he says, no, that God has called you to be a wealthy man with lots of responsibility, including justice over the people in your area, that you need to bear that responsibility because we need good

44:23

Christians making those decisions. But enabling you to do so, you must begin to carve time out for contemplation, for reading the

44:34

Bible, for having that Bible reading transform your heart with a love that will sustain you in your work in the world.

44:44

Lady Margaret Bolford publishes both of these, and it becomes part of her

44:50

Tudor Catholic reform movement. Because what's going on politically in England in the 15th century?

45:00

We have the Wars of the Roses. Anyway, should I pause there before we go into the political?

45:06

No, you can continue. Okay, so what's going on politically is we have the

45:12

Wars of the Roses. How did they begin? They begin because Edward does not recognize his liege lord in Henry VI.

45:26

Edward of York rebels against the king, who's a Lancaster, and there's a civil war.

45:34

How does it end? Richard III, who is of the House of York, which has completely defeated the

45:41

House of Lancaster, basically fails to protect his two nephews and assumes the crown in their place.

45:52

And you have inferiors refusing to be obedient to superiors, and superiors refusing to protect and look after the interests of inferiors.

46:04

All medieval society is based on a hierarchy where everyone has to obey those above them and look after those under them.

46:15

And because of the signal failure of the House of York to do that, the last sprig of the

46:22

House of Lancaster, Henry II, is able to come back and get some of the aristocrat nobles to come to his side because they're appalled at what

46:34

Richard III had done, and puts the Tudors on the throne. So the Tudors are absolutely dedicated to making sure morality and doing one's duty is part of English culture.

46:49

And what institution is known for teaching people to do their duty?

46:57

The church. Because you're all about having to do good works. So Lady Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII, Henry Tudor, and Henry VIII's grandmother, becomes a patron of training preachers to encourage people to do their duty.

47:19

Now Walter Hilton is all part of that, because if you read scripture and get a burning love for God, what are you supposed to do with that burning love according to Walter Hilton?

47:29

Do good works, including being obedient. At the same time, though, that this is going on in the political situation in England, we have an academic movement on the continent,

47:45

Europe, called humanism. And what humanism basically says is scholasticism is morally bankrupt.

47:55

Just think about it. What is the scholastic method? The scholastic method is saying author

48:02

A says A, author B says B, and they disagree.

48:08

We've got to find some way to work out how they really actually do agree.

48:16

And the way we're going to do that is we're going to argue back and forth. And through disputations, we're eventually going to come to a common truth.

48:26

And what the humanist said is that actually trying to argue each other down doesn't produce a common ground of truth and unity and harmony.

48:38

It just produces a whole lot of academics who think they know better than everybody else, and they're always arguing all the time, and that is not the purpose of what the

48:49

Christian church should be doing. And what are they arguing about? Well, it is a myth, but there is a point to the myth about the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

49:02

The humanists say these folks argue about possibilities and get so caught up of what might be so that they neglect what is clearly taught in Scripture as one's moral duty.

49:19

And they're off in their own little world rather than enabling people to live godly lives.

49:28

So the humanists say we've got to stop trying to argue these esoteric issues of possibilities in theology, and we've got to work from the certitude of Scripture and the early fathers to persuade, using rhetoric, persuade people to love

49:52

God and to follow Him by being good. Now, doesn't that sound something very familiar?

49:59

Haven't we heard that theme before? Therefore, what someone like Erasmus, the great

50:06

Dutch humanist, does is he produces a wonderful Greco -Roman pedigree in an academic way for the kind of personal piety that Walter Hilton and Richard Rule have been teaching the

50:23

English people. Now, I didn't say this before, but Richard Rule develops his emphasis on the transporting power of Scripture as a rejection of the dull intellectualism of the scholastic theology he fled from when he was taught at Oxford.

50:42

And the humanists have the same critique. So what you have with the Lady Margaret Bolford is marrying the native medieval

50:50

English spiritual tradition with this new avant -garde academic program coming from Erasmus.

50:59

And Erasmus himself says that the purpose of reading Scripture is to move the affections so that you will love

51:08

God and weep at your sins and pursue godliness. And this is the context in which

51:16

Henry VIII is raised. Do you know that he heard Mass three times a day?

51:23

It doesn't surprise me, because I know that he was declared to be defender of the faith in regard to Roman Catholicism, that is.

51:30

He was a conventionally outwardly pious man.

51:36

He was the grandson of Lady Margaret Bolford. And he's essentially an

51:43

Erasmian humanist, which means that you've got to do good works to be saved.

51:48

He's never a Protestant. But he's a liberal Catholic because the divorce becomes for him a defining episode.

51:59

Did you realize that Henry VIII had three sons? No, I did not know that off the top of my head, no.

52:06

In fact, I want you to pick up right there when we return from our midway break.

52:11

Our midway break is typically longer because of Grace Life Radio and Lake City, Florida's requirements that we have a 12 -minute break in between our hours.

52:20

So I hope everyone is patient with us as we go to our midway break. And, God willing, we'll be returning any moment with our guests,

52:28

Dr. Ashley Null and Reformation Anglicanism. So don't go away. One sure way all

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Before I return to my discussion with Dr. Ashley Null on Reformation Anglicanism, I just have a couple of brief announcements to make in regard to special events that are coming up in the near future that some of our sponsors are participating in or running.

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Please let them know that you heard about the G3 Conference from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

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Last but not least, I must perform that most uncomfortable task that I do in my daily program.

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I haven't done it for a long time, but within the last three months or so,

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I have begun making public appeals for donations at the urging of my advertisers who spend hard -earned money to keep

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Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. For years, you never heard one word from me in regard to a public appeal for donations, but the time has become so desperate and the need so urgent financially that I am acquiescing and I am listening to the advice, counsel, and requests of my advertisers to make these public appeals.

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It is mind -blowing at times, and I thank you more than the English language will permit me to describe.

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01:09:47

Now we are finally back to our discussion with Dr. Ashley Null, and we are discussing a book that he contributed to, titled

01:09:57

Reformation Anglicanism, A Vision for Today's Global Communion. And this is a book that involves a number of authors.

01:10:08

We have Michael Nazir Ali, we have John W. Yates III, we have

01:10:15

Michael Jensen, we have Ben Quashie, and I may be mispronouncing that name.

01:10:21

And as far as Dr. Ashley Null's contribution, he wrote the chapter on the power of unconditional love in the

01:10:30

Anglican Reformation. He wrote the chapter on Sola Gratia, which is salvation by grace alone.

01:10:39

He co -authored the chapter on A Manifesto for Reformation Anglicanism with John W.

01:10:47

Yates III. So if you'd like to join us with a question on this subject, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:10:54

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And before the break, as you may recall,

01:11:00

Dr. Null, we were talking about, or you were talking about a similarity that Henry VIII had with Fred McMurray.

01:11:08

They both had three sons. That's the last thing you said, or you didn't say the

01:11:14

Fred McMurray part, but you said that Henry VIII had three sons, and if you want to pick up where we left off there.

01:11:19

Sure. Let's just recall that 15th century

01:11:25

English spirituality emphasized the supernatural power of scripture to birth a love in your heart by which you could then pursue godliness by which you would be saved.

01:11:41

The Dutch humanist scholar Erasmus comes to the very same conclusion about the power of scripture to do that, but through looking at Greek and Roman sources and encouraging theological education to stop bickering through scholastic theology, but to embrace a commitment to teaching the plain moral truths of scripture and using rhetoric to persuade people to live lives of godly love.

01:12:15

Then we talked about the tutors because of their political situation.

01:12:21

They very much want the church to preach this practical scripture -based morality that would create stability for their kingdom that had had 30 years of civil war.

01:12:36

Into this comes Henry VIII. The great accomplishment of his father was bringing peace, and to maintain peace you needed people to obey the king, but you also needed the king to produce a clear air so everyone agreed who was the king who should be obeyed.

01:12:56

This became a problem for Henry because he actually had one son who lived a little over seven weeks, and Henry was so excited about his birth and his evidently healthy son that he holds a week -long tournament of knights jousting and feasting.

01:13:19

On the last night of the week -long tournament he wears a doublet with golden letters of K and H.

01:13:31

H for Henry, of course, K for Catherine, his wife, and he lets peasants pick these golden letters off his doublet because he was so happy to have a son.

01:13:43

Within a week of that tournament his son is dead. He has two more sons, but they are stillborn.

01:13:51

He does have a daughter, Mary, but the last time England had a female heir was 300 years earlier, and guess what it led to?

01:14:00

That's right, 30 years of civil war. Henry, because he is reared by his pious household based on scripture, knows that Leviticus says clearly that not only should you not sleep with your brother's wife, it also says that the penalty for doing that is that you will be childless.

01:14:28

And his Hebrew professor tells him that actually perhaps a better translation is without heir because the

01:14:38

Hebrew word refers to seed. So Henry becomes honestly convinced that the

01:14:45

Pope who gave him permission to marry his brother's widow was wrong, and that God was now publicly punishing him, and that the only way that he could get this curse off his back was to have the marriage declared a non -marriage, and for him then to remarry, well to marry in his eyes for the first time and produce a legitimate heir.

01:15:13

And it's because of his conviction that the

01:15:18

Pope had basically lied to him and promised him a power the

01:15:24

Pope didn't have, which was to set aside a clear command of scripture, that Henry begins to doubt the whole institution of the papacy, and he begins to doubt the power of the priesthood in general.

01:15:43

And this culminates in 1534 with Henry separating from the

01:15:50

Pope, separating from the Church of Rome, and creating an independent Church of England.

01:15:55

And because it was independent, and it was during the Reformation, the Church of England under Henry had to decide if it kept to traditionalist medieval

01:16:06

Catholic teachings, or did it embrace the Protestant recovery of Biblical teachings.

01:16:12

And in the end, Henry creates a church in Henry's own image.

01:16:17

Remember I said that Henry very much considers obedience to be really important, because he really likes the idea of you being damned if you disobey him?

01:16:27

Yes, I do remember you saying that, it's hard to forget that one. Therefore he never will become a

01:16:32

Protestant because he wants work to play a part in salvation. But because he distrusts the sacred power of the priesthood as taught by the medieval

01:16:43

Church, and the power of the Pope, he's never going to be a good Catholic either. So he's in between, and he creates his own kind of weird combination.

01:16:54

Now, it just so happens that as things are progressing and coming to a head, and the

01:17:04

Archbishop of Canterbury dies, this is in 1532, and he needs to appoint someone to be the next

01:17:14

Archbishop of Canterbury with the Pope's blessing. And he chooses a scholar from Cambridge who's currently his ambassador to the court of Charles V.

01:17:28

Remember I said that there was four parts to the background, and the fourth part was what was going on politically in continental

01:17:38

Europe? Yes. This is important to understand, Henry and Charles V and the

01:17:44

Pope, because France has just completed a consolidation of royal authority, and it's now beginning to strut in Europe as a real major world power.

01:18:00

Well, who does that threaten? That threatens England, of course, and it also threatens the

01:18:09

Spanish and the Germans. But it just so happens, through clever marriages and unexpected deaths, that the

01:18:20

Holy Roman Emperor, who is in essence the head of the German nation, who also controls the

01:18:28

Netherlands, is also the King of Spain. So that makes

01:18:34

Henry's wife the German Emperor slash

01:18:41

King of Spain's nephew. Oh, did I mention that his lands include

01:18:47

Italy south of the Tiber? I don't think you mentioned that yet. Yes, and that at the very time that Henry's thinking about asking for an annulment from Catherine of Aragon, that his troops sack

01:19:04

Rome? Yeah, you haven't mentioned that yet until now, yeah. So do you think the

01:19:11

Pope is going to want to make the Emperor mad again, and then do what

01:19:17

Henry wants? Obviously not. But do you think he wants to insult

01:19:23

Henry and get Henry mad? He would most likely be fearful of that as well.

01:19:29

So guess what he does? What does he do? Nothing! Which infuriates

01:19:37

Henry. And so Henry, in 1532, sends a

01:19:42

Cambridge scholar who, like himself, is a liberal Catholic, an

01:19:47

Erasmian humanist, who believes that Scripture is more important than what the

01:19:54

Pope thinks, but still believes in the importance of works and salvation.

01:20:00

A guy named Thomas Cramner. And he is the ambassador to Charles V, the nephew of Henry's wife, and it's

01:20:11

Cramner's unenviable job of trying to persuade Charles V to agree to the annulment, which he of course considers a great family insult on the family honor.

01:20:25

Anyway, while this happens, the old Archbishop of Canterbury dies.

01:20:31

And Henry decides to nominate Cramner to the Pope to become the next

01:20:36

Pope, the next Archbishop of Canterbury, because he has the same basic theological orientation of Henry.

01:20:44

But what Henry doesn't know is that while Cramner has been in England, sorry, while Cramner has been in the court of Charles V in Germany, he has seen

01:20:56

Protestantism up close for the first time. And that he has actually done the scandalous thing of gotten married.

01:21:10

Why is it scandalous? Because priests can't marry. Now everyone knows they shouldn't have mistresses, but no one is shocked if they do.

01:21:21

But to take a woman as your wife means you are clearly breaking from the authority of the

01:21:28

Roman Church. And what's even more interesting, Cramner marries the niece of the wife of a very angular reformer of Nuremberg called

01:21:43

Andreas Osiander. And there is no way that Osiander would let someone marry into his household who wasn't a solid

01:21:52

Protestant. And what we have here is a very interesting example of what made

01:22:02

English Catholics convert to Protestantism.

01:22:09

And it all has to do with the affections. Remember we said that both humanism and 15th century

01:22:18

English spirituality had emphasized the importance of having a burning love for God.

01:22:24

So that you can then have the power to do good deeds and become godly.

01:22:30

Because again in the medieval system, in order to be saved you had to prove that you were good and godly like God.

01:22:37

You needed God's help to do that, but it was up to you to work hard to do that. What Philip Melanchthon, the right -hand man of Luther, in a very influential book on rhetoric...

01:22:52

Now what did Erasmus say that we should emphasize? We should emphasize logic?

01:22:58

Is that what Erasmus said? Pursuing godliness. Right. Through persuading people to act morally through rhetoric, right?

01:23:11

The most important, the most popular book on rhetoric in the first half of the 16th century was by Erasmus.

01:23:19

But guess who was the author of the second most popular book on rhetoric? Would it have been

01:23:25

Melanchthon? Melanchthon. And what Melanchthon ingeniously does is explain

01:23:33

Luther's theology in terms of a rhetoric of affections.

01:23:42

He basically says that we are captivated in a self -love that the human heart can't escape.

01:23:52

That sounds like Luther, right? Yeah. And the only way that we can actually love something other than ourselves is if a greater love comes in and captures our heart.

01:24:06

And as the word of God is preached, and as the promises of free salvation are made known, the spirit of God comes into the heart and enables

01:24:21

Christians to begin to trust those promises. And if they trust those promises, not only do they get inner peace, but guess what else they get?

01:24:32

You guessed it. A burning love for God. And what should that burning love for God do?

01:24:41

Help them express love in concrete ways to God and their neighbor.

01:24:49

Wim Kramers in Germany, he decides that it's not enough just to meditate on the moral examples in Scripture and to try to follow them so as to be good enough for God.

01:25:05

You can only love God when you know He's guaranteed you salvation.

01:25:11

And therefore, he begins to believe that what you meditate on Scripture is not what you have to do to earn

01:25:19

God's love, but you meditate on the fact that God loves you enough to save you, and therefore your response is loving gratitude for what you have been given.

01:25:32

And that it's, therefore, the Protestant message of justification by faith that people need to meditate on.

01:25:41

Yes, the faith that saves. We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone.

01:25:48

It seems to be that was what was rising up. Oh, I'm laughing because that's exactly the word that Kramner uses, that faith alone has the office, in Kramner's word, of justifying.

01:25:59

But faith alone is not alone in the heart. Because once faith comes, assurance comes, and once assurance comes, gratitude comes, and when gratitude comes, love comes, and when love comes, what else comes?

01:26:16

Repentance. You don't really truly repent until you love God more than sin.

01:26:22

And when you begin to repent, you begin to do good works, and if you're doing good works, you're helping society.

01:26:30

So Kramner says the only way to fulfill the humanist vision is to embrace the

01:26:37

Protestant understanding of salvation. Luther's question is, how do I find a gracious God?

01:26:44

That is not Kramner's question. Kramner is a Tudor humanist. His question is, how do

01:26:51

I get people to love God more than sin so we can have a productive, safe, secure society?

01:26:59

Because out of the Wars of the Roses, that's the question in the Church of England, right? Yep. In fact...

01:27:06

The great surprise to Kramner is the answer to Luther's question, justification by faith.

01:27:13

He realizes this is also the answer to his question. He can't bring into...

01:27:20

In fact, he tells Henry VIII in 1538 that if the promise of forgiveness of sins gets down into the deepness of our heart, then we will have, and guess what phrase he uses?

01:27:36

A burning love for God. And if we have this burning love for God, it means that our wills will do everything we can to please

01:27:49

Him, to serve Him, and to serve our neighbor. Melanchthon's anthropology,

01:27:56

Melanchthon's understanding of human nature is, which he teaches in a very influential book called

01:28:02

Theological Common Places, published in 1521, what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.

01:28:13

What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies. Kramner adopts that and then puts that very language into the official teachings of the

01:28:27

Church of England as soon as he can, but he can't do it as long as Henry VIII is alive.

01:28:33

So, Henry VIII dies in 1547, and the independent

01:28:39

Church of England between 1534 and 1547 is a

01:28:44

Rasmian Catholic humanist, but it's not Protestant. But with the boy king in 1547, then you get a true, thorough

01:28:56

Protestant Reformation in England, and it begins in 1547 with a series of homilies, of required sermons, that teach this understanding of what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies, that as you meditate on Scripture, its supernatural power will change your heart.

01:29:22

And specifically, when you meditate on the promises of free salvation, then trust will come, and from trust will come love, and from love will come a desire to follow

01:29:36

God and His commandments. Have you ever seen the famous portrait of Kramner in a study with a window in the background and a book in his hands?

01:29:46

Yes. Is this the clean -shaven one, the clean -shaven

01:29:53

Kramner? Exactly, the clean -shaven Kramner. Now, most folks think he's reading a

01:29:59

Bible, but he's not reading a Bible, he's only reading a portion of the Bible. And when you tell folks that, most folks think that he's reading the

01:30:07

Gospels, because after all, in liturgical churches you have separate books of the Gospels that are read during the

01:30:14

Gospel procession. But if you read carefully the painting, if you can get up close enough to read what it says, he's reading

01:30:24

Paul's epistles. Kramner wants you to know that his most characteristic act as Archbishop, as a

01:30:33

Protestant Archbishop, is to meditate on the power of the

01:30:39

Gospel as made known in Paul's epistles, because from justification by faith comes a true

01:30:46

Christian life. Amen. And we have to go to our final break right now, it's going to be very brief, and we'll take as many of our listener questions as we have time to.

01:30:55

And if you want to get in line, I can't promise that we'll have time for your question, but if you want to get in line, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:31:04

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Ashley Null in Reformation Anglicanism.

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01:32:36

We are now in our final segment of today's interview with Dr. Ashley Null on his book that he contributed to,

01:32:44

Reformation Anglicanism. And we are going to now read some of our audience questions or listener questions.

01:32:51

First of all, I don't normally give full names when our listeners write in, but since this brother has a church that I would be more than happy to promote,

01:33:06

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington, he is the pastor of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

01:33:15

He has a question for you. He says, what about the acts of supremacy and uniformity?

01:33:23

Are these biblical? Well, I think the act of supremacy is a function of 16th century politics, and we can bracket that.

01:33:41

But John Knox had a significant difficulty with the act of uniformity.

01:33:48

That's code word, folks, for the Book of Common Prayer and the liturgy, and whether or not the

01:33:55

Anglican liturgy was biblical. Just to give you some background, Cramner and Knox disagreed about what the function of the

01:34:07

Bible was in the Christian life. For Cramner, the Bible was the sole authority for the message of salvation.

01:34:20

But as a good humanist, he knows that every message has a packaging, and that packaging has to be something that is understood by the current contemporary culture for the message to be able to be appreciated and to be effective.

01:34:43

So, for instance, it made sense in 4th century Rome to make sure that rather than using

01:34:51

Greek in the liturgies of the church, as was originally true in Rome, that they use

01:34:56

Latin, because Latin was the native tongue by that time, rather than Greek.

01:35:05

And Cramner would say that the Bible's message transcends any one particular culture, but how that message is lived out, how it's proclaimed, and the institutions of the church should reflect a mission to the contemporary culture, and thus should change from generation to generation, but the gospel should not, because it's founded on the unchanging truth of Scripture.

01:35:39

John Knox felt that not just the message of salvation, but everything in the

01:35:47

Christian life must be grounded clearly upon a principle of Scripture.

01:35:55

And if it wasn't founded upon a principle of Scripture, it didn't come from faith, and if it didn't come from faith, it was sin.

01:36:03

And the most explicit conflict they had on this particular issue was in 1552, in the second much more

01:36:13

Protestant prayer book, they retained the practice of kneeling at Holy Communion, and Knox said that this was unbiblical, and therefore was idolatrous, it was only done as a reference to a papist past.

01:36:34

Cramner points out that if one was going to eat in the

01:36:43

Lord's Supper in the biblical manner, they would all have to lie down on the ground in the chancel, and there was much humor and laughter around the

01:36:56

Privy Council when this came up, but if people think that Cramner was just making a joke, they've missed the whole point.

01:37:04

That was because of the way they were reclined at the Last Supper, I'm assuming, right? Right, right. He's basically saying the biblical way to eat is to recline at couches.

01:37:15

That's what they did. Now, Chris, were you ever a

01:37:20

Boy Scout? Yes, I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. My father actually was a Cub Scout Master.

01:37:26

Okay, did you ever eat with your fingers around a campfire? I think that's the only way we ate.

01:37:34

Is that immoral? Of course not. Why not? Because it's just food.

01:37:41

There's no biblical law against eating food with your fingers, especially there's no ceremonial law in the

01:37:48

New Testament. That's Cramner's whole point, that there is no one way, there's no biblically commanded way to have a meal.

01:38:02

And that if you were saying that you couldn't kneel because it wasn't biblical, you were trying to impose a biblical standard, an ethical, moral standard on a cultural practice.

01:38:20

Whether you reclined at couch or sit down at a table to eat is not a moral category, it's a cultural category, right?

01:38:28

Yes, but wouldn't Knox's problem really be because of the fact that Rome worships the elements and therefore kneel?

01:38:38

Yes, but that's not what he argued. Okay. And that's the problem.

01:38:44

In the end, I believe there are certain pieces of evidence that suggest that Cramner was preparing a third prayer book at which they would have sat at table.

01:38:57

And I think that's probably true, because how do 16th century people eat?

01:39:03

I'm not sure. Okay. And therefore he would not want them lying on couches, but he would want them sitting down, because that was the most effective way to a 16th century audience to communicate what it meant to eat.

01:39:18

This is a fellowship meal, not a sacrifice. But he was not prepared to give up that principle.

01:39:27

So, for instance, the next time this issue comes up, John Knox is in Frankfurt, and this is under the

01:39:38

Marian exile, and there are some members of Cramner's church government that are in Frankfurt, and they're tussling with Knox over what is the right liturgy to be using in Frankfurt.

01:39:57

And Knox is saying that if they don't reform Cramner's prayer book, that they're going to be sent into exile again, because Cramner's prayer book is only half reformed.

01:40:08

And the folks, the Cramner's fellow leaders are saying, no, what we need to do is be a clearly a church of England, Protestant church of England, worshiping community in exile, and that means using the last

01:40:23

Protestant prayer book. Things came to a head, and they tried to iron things out, but the

01:40:33

Cramner folks, and the Cramner folks are led by a man named

01:40:38

Cox, so we really do talk in the literature about the Coxians and the

01:40:44

Knoxians. Yeah. The Coxians were insistent on keeping what are called versicles in morning prayer.

01:40:56

Oh Lord, make speed to save us. Oh Lord, make haste to help us. Those actually all happen to be taken from the

01:41:03

Psalms. Knox breaks fellowship over the inclusion of those in the liturgy, because he believes that when you enter into church, the minister speaks on behalf of God, and the people passively receive.

01:41:21

You may know that in the Reformed tradition, the congregation generally doesn't say amen after the prayers with the minister.

01:41:30

That's part of that tradition, and for Knox, that even though these were scriptural verses, the fact that the people were speaking them, he considered it an abomination, because there was nothing in scripture that said the people should speak during worship.

01:41:48

And it's that kind of mentality that Cramner is opposed to. He says nothing in your liturgy can contradict the gospel, and he edits many things, but you don't have to have a specific biblical command to do something.

01:42:08

And in fact, some of the things we've received from the old church, if they're biblical, if they follow a clear gospel mission purpose to make the gospel clear to the culture in question, they should be kept.

01:42:28

But if they're not effective for mission, if they undermine the gospel, or they're a custom not understood by the people, they should be abolished.

01:42:37

It's that very flexibility that today's standard in missional practices, that the gospel is eternal, but you need to think clearly how to convey it culturally.

01:42:52

That Cramner's talking about in the 16th century, but for Knox, he wants a uniformity of not only doctrine, but also worship, reflecting what he thinks is the biblical model.

01:43:09

And therefore, Knox would say that the act of uniformity was not biblical, and Cramner would have said that it is biblical, and Reformation Anglicans follow that same distinction, that the regulative principle is to be followed in doctrine, but the normative principle, i .e.,

01:43:31

nothing in worship can contradict Scripture. Rather, it might edify and have a clear missional purpose, but it doesn't necessarily need a clear scriptural warrant so that you can say a godly recitation of psalms versus between the minister and the congregation.

01:43:55

Yeah, they're treating the silence of Scripture in two different ways. One viewing the silence as a prohibition to do something, and the other viewing it as a license or a liberty,

01:44:05

I should say. What Cramner wants to do is to leave creativity for the

01:44:15

Church to effectively proclaim the message to its culture without that undermining the

01:44:25

Gospel. And the great problem, I must admit, in Anglicanism is that although I think that's a healthy approach, it in effect does open the door for people abusing it.

01:44:38

And the difficulties we have today are people claiming that they are trying to proclaim the

01:44:46

Gospel in culturally relevant terms, when actually what they have done is capitulated to the culture rather than acculturate the

01:44:55

Gospel in it. But that is a judgment call, and many good and godly folks think that that's a price too high to pay, and that doing a regulative principle is safer.

01:45:11

And my guess is if the pastor from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church was asked, he would say a regulative principle of all is safer and more biblical, though that would not be the way that I would go.

01:45:23

Well, thank you, Pastor Jeff Waddington. You have received a free copy of Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global communion, and this is

01:45:31

Volume 1 in the Reformation Anglicanism Essential Library. This book is a hardback, retailing for $35, so make sure we have your full mailing address.

01:45:42

And we also want to thank the folks at Crossway for providing these free books, and also CVBBS .com

01:45:48

for shipping them out to our listeners who win them. We also have Zachary in Rippon, California.

01:45:57

And I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly, but I may be wrong on that. But Zachary says,

01:46:04

In the recent work of Dr. W. Bradford Littlejohn, the case is made that Richard Hooker undoubtedly falls within the broader

01:46:12

Reformed tradition. In your view, Dr. Noll, to what degree do Cramner and Hooker align in their views regarding the main tenets of the

01:46:22

Reformation? That's interesting because I remember an Anglican minister years ago complaining that I was over -Calvinizing

01:46:30

Anglicanism, and he was trying to appeal to Hooker as being more in a line with a via media position between Rome and Protestantism.

01:46:40

But anyway, if you could respond to our friend Zachary in Rippon, California.

01:46:51

I'm hesitating because Hooker is a very sophisticated theologian, and it's difficult to accurately speak of him concisely.

01:47:08

He himself is not concise, and therefore one is constrained to try to render him concise with appropriate trepidation.

01:47:20

But first of all, there have been those that have argued that Hooker was well within the mainstream of magisterial

01:47:32

Reformational teaching. Torrance Kirby has powerfully argued this position, as well as others.

01:47:44

The more traditional view is that Hooker was deeply influenced by Thomas Aquinas and the power of reason, and is therefore a more middle figure between Rome and Geneva.

01:48:04

Torrance Kirby has pointed out that those parts that seem most

01:48:09

Thomistic in Hooker are actually because both

01:48:16

Hooker and Thomas are indebted to Neoplatonism at those points.

01:48:23

I haven't mentioned Neoplatonism, but that's actually the philosophy behind Erasmus' humanism, and that's why

01:48:34

Erasmus talks about the supernatural power of the Word as an expression of the living

01:48:43

Word. Erasmus says that if you have

01:48:48

God's Word in you, you have the living mind of Christ. And what

01:48:55

Hooker does, Hooker's stated intention is to defend the

01:49:02

Church of England as established from both Roman Catholic criticism and Puritan criticism.

01:49:11

Therefore, it is not surprising that he seeks to further the central tenets of the

01:49:21

Edwardian Reformation, of Cranmer's Reformation of Justification by Faith, of a spiritual presence in communion via participation, key things like this.

01:49:35

But he does so in a much more sophisticated way than Cranmer.

01:49:41

Now we said earlier tonight about the issue between Knox and Cranmer on the role of the

01:49:48

Bible in things like church government, church liturgy, the institutional side of the church.

01:49:56

Does one look for a blueprint for these in Scripture, or is

01:50:02

Scripture the exclusive blueprint for doctrine? But one can take into consideration the changing cultural needs of human society, and therefore the institutional expression of Christianity, both in its government and in its liturgies, can change from generation to generation.

01:50:25

Both Cranmer and Hooker would say that the Bible is the law of salvation for enabling people to return to God, but how that's proclaimed,

01:50:37

God guides the Church to do that. And therefore Hooker says, well look, there's a law of Scripture, and there's also a law of human church government.

01:50:52

The Puritans denied such a thing as a law of church government, so let's take a step back and realize that there's a whole hierarchy of laws, and not just the law of the

01:51:07

Bible, but for instance, Hooker redefines law.

01:51:15

When you think of law, you think of a statute on a printed page in a book, right? Yeah, typically.

01:51:21

Humans and beings in force. Yeah, that would be the typical thought. Hooker, what he means by law, he means something's

01:51:32

God -given DNA, something that determines how it acts out, how an acorn will inevitably become an oak tree.

01:51:44

He calls that the law of its own nature, which we would say is its

01:51:52

DNA. He points to the stars and how they follow a law of their nature, and plants follow a law of their nature.

01:52:03

And so there's all sorts of divine laws in addition to Scripture. And he then points out that the difficulty with human beings is because of a fault.

01:52:17

We don't follow our God -given DNA. Our minds have been corrupted, and we need to have our minds reprogrammed so that we can begin to have a loving service of God, to become one with him in heart, mind, and soul, and then serve him.

01:52:42

And how do you suppose Hooker thinks that one is reprogrammed to serve

01:52:49

God? Not sure. Well, on the transforming power of Scripture.

01:52:57

The grander message of salvation is at the heart of Hooker's work, but it's now described in much grander cosmic scheme to make clear that the divine power of Scripture is not the only way

01:53:13

God operates his universe, and as the mind is renewed through Scripture, that God would then give church leaders wisdom on how to proclaim the message of the

01:53:32

Bible to their generation, and therefore you do have church laws that God works as a secondary means through, but they cannot ever change the faith once received and the morality that's associated with it.

01:53:51

That's Hooker's division. And therefore, there are many similarities between Cramner and Hooker, but because of his larger enterprise, there are some distinctions.

01:54:04

The most important might be that for Cramner, it's all about the heart. What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.

01:54:13

For Hooker, it's the renewal of the mind to understand the depth of God's love for you, and then realizing that you are then empowered to love

01:54:27

God and serve him. Well, thank you so much, Zachary. You have also won a free copy of Reformation Anglicanism, and since you're a first -time questioner, you're also receiving a free

01:54:39

New American Standard Bible. We have Danny in Kirkwood, Missouri, who says,

01:54:44

One area that has caused great fractures throughout the Anglican Communion concerns sexual ethics.

01:54:51

However, many of my Roman Catholic friends argue that the 1930 Lambeth Conference, which ruled in favor of the permissibility of contraception and resulted in the

01:55:01

Anglican Communion breaking away from a common consensus shared among both the Roman Catholic Church and most

01:55:07

Protestant denominations concerning the impermissibility of contraception, sowed the seeds of this chaos by separating the unitive and procreative ends of the conjugal act.

01:55:20

Can you speak to this charge in three minutes? We're going to be running out of time very shortly.

01:55:27

I am not so sure that the Anglicans were so concerned about the worldwide consensus on this moral issue of contraception.

01:55:40

Although they've traditionally been much more concerned about the worldwide consensus on church government, i .e.

01:55:50

women in church leadership, and although obviously feeling free to make a decision regardless of the other major branches in Christendom makes it possible to disagree on sexuality,

01:56:08

I think that there are a lot of other factors that I would assign a higher priority in causing the current problems.

01:56:16

First of all, a lack of biblical authority. Well, thank you. You've also won a free copy of the book and also a free

01:56:23

New American Standard Bible since you are a first -time questioner. We have Melinda in Peekskill, New York, who says,

01:56:33

In what specific ways do you think the Anglican Church today is in conflict with its

01:56:39

Reformation roots? And that's the only question that we have time for today. And I really can't answer that because it all depends on which church, which province, which area.

01:56:54

Anglicanism has a broad spectrum of churchmanship, of different understandings, and therefore in any given area you might have people who are being faithful to the

01:57:07

Reformation Anglican understanding, but have in the same town someone who has a more

01:57:14

Catholic understanding and both being Anglican. The question isn't so much whether Reformation Anglicanism is the only kind of Anglicanism.

01:57:22

The question is whether the Anglicanism you subscribe to is clearly orthodox and biblical, and then often because of the lack of a profile of Evangelical Anglicanism in this country, people who seek to be

01:57:41

Evangelical Anglicans are accused of being somehow cryptobaptists and don't belong to this tradition, when in fact it's quite the opposite.

01:57:49

And even if Anglicanism has agreed to give place to a more

01:57:54

Catholic expression, that Catholic expression cannot be seen as the only kind of Anglicanism.

01:58:00

And in our current missional context, I do think that when people are feeling burdened by legalism and are adopting a false understanding of grace as the way out, that Reformation Anglicanism, which has a much more balanced understanding of the true nature of grace and what

01:58:23

God does in people's lives, and motivating people not by fear but by love, and its power to change to make us more like the one who loves us, that that is a powerful message today, and I hope it will have a growing witness in Anglicanism not only in North America but around the world.

01:58:45

Amen. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on our program today, Rod McKeown. I mean, actually, no, I don't know if you've ever heard that before.

01:58:52

Your voice sounds a lot like Rod McKeown. I hope it's a compliment. Yeah, well,

01:58:58

I actually always like the sound of Rod McKeown's voice. I want to thank Melinda. Also, you've won a free copy of the book,

01:59:04

Reformation Anglicanism, and you're also getting a free New American Standard Bible. Do you have any contact information that you care to share with our listeners,

01:59:13

Dr. Knoll? I would ask them to deeply pray for me.

01:59:22

Okay, we will do that. And if you would like to order the book, if you haven't won it today, you can go to cvbbs .com,

01:59:30

cvbbs .com, and ask for Reformation Anglicanism, a vision for today's global mission.

01:59:36

I hope that you all have a safe and God -glorifying Thanksgiving. I look forward to having

01:59:42

Dr. Knoll back in the very near future because we still have quite a number of listeners whose questions were not read and answered because of the lack of time.

01:59:51

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.