Apologia After Show w/ Darren Doane: Filmmaking with a Worldview

Filmmaking, Postmillennialism, and Christian Worldview

Hey, this is Jeff Durbin with Apologia TV. Wanted to let you know about something very, very cool. Filmmaker Darren Doan, the director and filmmaker of the new film Stonewall, has hooked up with us and is giving Apologia All Access members access to the new film Stonewall for a 24-hour period.

Sign up at ApologiaRadio .com for the all access. So as soon as we find out and get word when this is getting released, we're going to let you know. You're going to get a special code. You'll get access.

You get to see the film before anyone else does. So Darren is supposed to know what it is?

He might.

Because he loves the punk rock?

Yeah.

So Darren, do you know?

My guess is Pennywise off the bat, but I'd have to hear a vocal, but that was a very Pennywise.

It does sound like Pennywise. Let me get to the vocals and see if you know.

Yeah, yeah, I'm here.

Well?

You're close. It's face to face.

Oh, OK. Wow.

OK, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Trevor, Trevor Keith, good guy. Face to face. I did a couple videos for face to face. And I actually did a documentary on face to face. So that's really cool.

I did not know that.

Yes.

That's awesome.

I just see. That's how we roll here.

See?

We just pull it all together.

There we go.

Must be that Post Melio.

That's awesome. I'd like to see that documentary.

Christ’s Victory in History and a World Without End

So OK, so we're back now. This is the after show. We have a lot more freedom. Darren, this is really interesting because I don't know if you know this or not, but God is doing something really big in the world right now.

He's really given us grace and sort of a platform to proclaim the excellencies of Jesus and his victorious kingdom into the world. And so God is doing big things, really displaying to people, to believers, really what the Puritans knew, the truth the Puritans knew, that Jesus is the king, putting all his enemies under his feet, and he will be victorious.

That's happening here. And what people will say, Darren, I've seen this often, because we talk about Christ's victory a lot on this show. And what people will tend to say is they'll say, I don't necessarily agree with Jeff on his post-millennialism, but I certainly want to live like him.

And that's nothing in me boasting, but in the sense that post-millennialism, the view of the victory of Jesus in history, does something in your life that causes you to really get into the world and get dirty.

And that's what I love about your films, is it's that. It's that godly troublemaking, it's that getting into the world, getting dirty. But here's the reason. There's a reason why, and it's because you believe something about Jesus that's causing you to invest the way that you are.

So just, I'd love to hear you talk about that, because I capture that in what you're doing.

It's the only way to make sense of the world. It's the only way to make sense of having a good time. It's the only way to make sense of trials. It's the only way to make sense of good food. It's the only way to make sense of sex.

It's the only way to make sense of all the things that people want to do. It's a post-millennial view, or if someone doesn't like post-millennialism because they get confused on the millennium and when, okay, even if you scratch that, but you just say a victorious kingdom that continues to advance.

Yes, amen, yes.

If we say that, then it's really, it's the only way to kind of make sense of the things that we actually enjoy doing. We enjoy fighting. We enjoy getting married. We enjoy all these things that, if you don't have a post-mill outlook, you kind of have to hide those things, and you kind of have to become something different when you're out in the culture, and then you kind of regulate everything just to your home and to your bedroom, and you don't, but, and then in the meantime, you sort of walk outside, and everyone else is pushing those things, and I think a post-mill outlook allows you to go in the culture and be like, you know, like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, I get it. Of course you want to go to the tap house and drink good beer, but only one worldview makes sense of having that good beer. Only one worldview makes sense of having good wine. What worldview, let alone what Christian worldview, makes sense of, I'm going to take something, I'm going to take grapes, and I'm going to crush it, I'm going to kill it.

I'm going to completely destroy it, and then I'm going to stick it in the ground for a long time, and then years later, we're going to open that bottle up, and we're going to drink it, and it's going to be transformed.

So it's not just the transformational aspect of it, but every time someone goes to make wine or beer, they're assuming the world's still going to be here.

Wow.

That's great symbolism.

I mean, and so, and so that's, you know, every time you plant a tree, right, you're assuming, you know, farmers used to plant trees thinking it'll be nice in 40 years that, you know, my grandkids will have shade.

You know, so people do this all the time, and so for me, Post Mill is almost like a presuppositional worldview in the sense that everyone is living that way. Even if someone says they think the world's coming to an end, they're just lying to themselves because if you're made in the image of God, then you reflect him, and he knows what's true, and he knows, I mean, most churches that have any kind of, you know, even small liturgy sing something to the effect of world without end, amen.

That's right.

And so world without end is like, well, I mean, so people have been singing this, so I just take it back to a Post Mill worldview for me, I think is absolutely consistent with how people actually live, how they think, and how they function.

Stonewall, the Civil War, and the Federal Government’s Power to Define Marriage

Yeah, yeah, and this would be a good way to launch further into the discussion in the sense of, man, Darren, this is aggressive, man, and I love that. Stonewall, trailer number two, I mean, aggressive, and let's play it, and let's talk about the aggressive nature of it and what you're trying to accomplish.

Do you believe the Civil War was good?

No, no.

Are you a big fan of Abraham Lincoln?

No.

I think he was a great man, but I don't think he was a helpful president. I think his presidency had a number of destructive consequences that we're still dealing with today.

Dealing with the fact that we don't have slavery anymore?

No, dealing with the fact that the federal government thinks they have the right to define what marriage is for all 50 states.

How did we get to marriage and talking about slavery?

At the founding, you had 13 colonies, and the federal government was a creation of. We then had the idea take root that the federal government could create states. Now, the federal government is older than the new states being created.

We think of it as a giant corporation, and the federal government is the CEO, and all the states are the department managers. That's not the constitutional system. Well, if the Supreme Court decides that we've got to do it this way, then, well, they're the Supreme Court, after all, and that lineage goes right back to the war between the states and the way the 14th Amendment was adopted and then applied after the fact.

So, for example, the Bill of Rights.

Well, hold up, but respectfully, no one in their 20s cares at all or understands about anything you just said.

Yeah, that's their problem.

But it doesn't matter anymore. What you just said. Everything you just said doesn't matter.

No one knows.

The Bill of Rights is number 14. No one cares about that, Doug.

Yeah.

They're too busy checking their email.

So explain to me, finish the sentence, the Civil War was bad because.

Well, if they don't care about what I just said, they don't care about the Civil War. If they don't care what I just said.

But they care about slavery, and slavery was a bad thing and it ended because of the Civil War.

No, what you're saying is that these people who cannot be bothered to be informed on what actually happened in 1861 to 1865, they're too bored. You're making my head hurt. Am I gonna have to read a book or something?

Was slavery bad?

Yeah. Okay.

So we got rid of it through a war.

Yeah, we killed 600 ,000 people to get rid of it. Everywhere else in the Western world, no other country that practiced slavery got rid of it the way we did through a war. So was it bad to kill 600 ,000 people?

Yeah, that's bad too. What atrocity would the federal government have to mandate before conservative Christians thought that the governor of their state had the responsibility and the authority to refuse, to just say no?

How did we get to this place?

Darren, you are telling a story. You are telling a story. I know, when I first saw that, when I first saw that second trailer, I immediately understood, Darren. I understood what you were doing. I could see what you were, I could see what you're trying to attack.

And let me just say this, Darren, you're aiming for the right spot in so many ways. So this is aggressive and I love it.

Yeah, I mean, again, I mean, I love thinking about things and from the day I became a Christian, as I'm sure most people know, there's this journey, and part of that journey is you're constantly reaching into your pocket and saying, okay, I need to get rid of this.

Right.

I need to dump this. I've got this, I've got that, I've got those friends, or I've got these ideas, or I've got this stuff, or I've got, and you go, and you go, and you go. And so when you first become a Christian, it's really easy just to throw away your CDs.

That's the easy move.

Yes.

And I remember doing that. I remember being like, oh my gosh, I'm the guy throwing away my CDs.

What are CDs?

How did this happen?

Right.

Because I was getting an iPod, so I just threw them away.

Yeah.

So I was like, wow, I'm becoming that guy, but then as you kind of move through things, it becomes your thought life, right? What thoughts do I have? And it's real easy to kind of go through just all the pervy porn ones first, and you get rid of that, and then you convince yourself, I'm not gonna use curse words anymore, and you start, and you kind of, but then as you kind of move along in the faith, you start looking around, and you're like, okay, I see a lot of people who've been Christians now 10, 15, 20, 30 years, and for me, it was like, I'm still looking around, and a lot of people still look really retarded to me.

I was like, what's going on here? And so you start to think about, okay, they believe in the gospel, they believe in all these things, everyone says, oh, it's about the gospel, the gospel, the gospel, and I'm like, yeah, amen, although I don't know what people mean by that anymore, to be honest with you, but people say it, and I kind of amen it, and it's like, okay, great, but then how does that actually really work out in regards to our thinking?

And so for me, Stonewall was more about something's wrong, something's in everybody's pocket still. What is everybody carrying around that, because something's not clicking, and what struck me was everybody I know, everybody I know, from conservatives to full-on socialists, everybody loves the Civil War.

I'm like, wait a minute, why do we have all this agreement? Like, everyone loves it, everyone loves Lincoln. It's like, okay, that's the one thing we can agree on. I was like, but wait a minute, how is that possible?

How is that possible that everyone is agreeing on one particular subject? And so for me, it was sort of like, hmm, what if, yes, you can go back to the garden, but for most people, we've got maybe 250 years to go back and think about, at some point, you have to pick a marker and figure out, is something still stuck with us?

And so for me, it was like, there's two people that have been elevated to the status of deity, and that's Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr. And so I just found that intriguing. Like, okay, there's two people that you dare not say anything about them.

That's right.

I mean, you can critique Jesus more than you can critique them.

Yeah.

Good point.

Very good point, yeah.

Did Jesus really say this? Well, but that was a cultural thing, and you know, Jesus, the way, you know, with women and culture, this and that, you know, like, there's things we can wrestle through and think about, and maybe Paul was wrong on head coverings or whatever, like, yeah, even though these are, you know, apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit, like, but Lincoln and Martin Luther King was just like, wow, you can't touch them, and everyone agrees with that.

So I was like, you know what? I think we're carrying something, and the thing that we are carrying, I think, is retarding Christians. It's doing something, and so Stonewall was a way to figure out, why are certain tricks still working?

Yes, there you go.

Why are Christians still falling for certain things? Well, I think it's because, and that's what this film explores, I think it's because something has been smuggled in, and it's not just been smuggled in like, oh, I didn't realize I still had that, you know, maybe I shouldn't be watching the real world, if that's still on, or I don't know, and everyone's having sex and doing this, and they're like, maybe I shouldn't be watching that, or, no, this is like, not only are people carrying it with them, but they are championing it.

They're saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is good, and so really, that's kind of what Stonewall explores and really goes after is, and I believe it leads to everything else that we're dealing with right now, with gay marriage, abortion, and Christians getting thrown in jail because they're not gonna issue marriage certificates, so it's like, so to me, it was like, okay, I really wanna figure out why we're just weird and wacky right now, and I think Stonewall does that.

Oh, yeah, and it's interesting, because when you are informed, Darren, when you are informed, you can look at the trailer as it begins, and you go, whoa, that was an aggressive move, but necessary, because you're absolutely right, and Darren, just the blending of the scenes from the abortion mill to the protests for gay, everything there, you are making the right connection, so when I say you're aiming at the right spot, I mean that.

I mean, we don't recognize that a lot of the woes, the things that we actually have to face today are as a result of a particular plot marker in history, and you hit the right spot, Darren, and I love how aggressive it is, and it's so necessary.

I mean, Darren, when it opens up with Douglas Wilson, you ask him, was the Civil War good?

No.

Are you a fan of Lincoln?

No.

That was so in your face, because it's just gonna be, even Christians raised in public school, just repeating the mantra, wait, wait, what? And it starts to get people to ask, are you saying slavery's good?

No, slavery's not good, but we ended slavery in a wicked way, and it got us to a place today where we are eating the fruit of that wicked war, and all the crying and the bickering over all the things going on in the Supreme Court, and again, like you said, people being thrown in jail for not issuing gay marriage certificates.

It has a particular heritage. It goes to a particular place, and Darren, you nailed it, man.

The Gospel as the Kingship of Jesus and the Political Invasion of the Kingdom

Well, and it's so providential, because I've been looking at the the Indiana footage of Doug for a while now, and watching it, and just thinking, man, something has to be done with this footage, so when I started doing Stonewall, I was like, okay, I'm gonna just start with that, and see if I can do a documentary on what happened at Indiana, and so I think I started assembling things in, I'm actually looking at my notes right now, I started in March, and I just started putting it together, working on it, and then I sort of made these notes, because all of a sudden, April 24th, Bruce Jenner says he's a woman.

June 16th, Rachel Dolezal says, I'm black, but before we could make fun of that, one day later, June 17th, that was the Charleston shooting, and that was the Confederate flag, and it was like, whoa, things are moving.

June 26th was gay marriage, and I couldn't even keep up with it, it was like, before we knew it, then we had transgender, the military, we're figuring things out, and then boom, Planned Parenthood hits.

Man, you're right, wow.

I was trying to keep up with all this, I'm like, this is insane. At one point, I was like, I need to stop making this movie, because I think it's my fault. I was like, the longer I go making this movie, things are just gonna keep happening, and I kid you not, two weeks ago, I was done with the movie.

I was done, I was like, we're done, guys, we have to stop, if we keep going, and literally the next day, it was Kim Davis.

Yep.

It's happening so fast, Darren.

I guess we're still filming, you know, and so, and then at that point, I was like, I need to officially stop before the Lord, because I don't want to see what's coming next. I was like, we are done, we are, you know, and so it just, it's been so crazy, you know, watching all these things happen and unfold, and then, but thankfully, again, I think the structure of the film is giving people handles to think about how to think about what is going on, and you know, you can't be exhaustive in a documentary, at least I can't, and so what I'm trying to do with Stonewall is, in one sense, kind of just dumb it down, one, two, maybe three things to think about, be able to really sort of, you know, latch onto, and I'm hoping that'll have a big effect just in regards to how people think, and you know, we'll see how those Amazon reviews go.

Yeah.

So what would you say is the biggest pushback, because obviously going forward as a trader, like you said, you know, you called yourself, and we all know that walk, especially when we step over to the biblical perspective, I mean, you ultimately become a trader immediately, what would you say is like the biggest pushback you've seen, not necessarily maybe in the liberal world, but maybe in the professing Christian world too, as well, making this film?

No pushback just yet in regards to this film, because when I started it, I really wanted to be, you know, I live in Moscow, Idaho now, I moved up here a year ago, you know, and so I live in the same town as Pastor Wilson, and so when I started the project, I didn't wanna be, you know, in case the film didn't work out, or I didn't find a narrative thread, I didn't want Doug having to be walking down the street and people being like, hey, what happened to that movie?

So we actually didn't really tell anybody about it, which is, it's different now living in the same town as Doug, and so it was, you know, I wanted to be more sensitive to that, and, you know, so I haven't really had any pushback there, except for that when the subject does come up, I'm amazed that I've had, I shouldn't say I'm amazed, because I understand it now, but I've had people look at me in the eye and say, well, I actually think abortion is better than slavery, because at least when you kill a baby, it's quick, you know, it may suffer, but Darren, a lifetime of being a slave, that just seems like a living hell, so that has surprised me, that when people do start to think about it, they immediately think, well, look, if I've got to pick two evil ways to go, just kill me in the womb, don't make me a slave.

Oh, that just grieves my heart, too.

Wow.

Yeah, so, you know, and I like to say, well, no, it's not an either or, guys.

Right.

Like, no, it's not an either or, but let's get our anchor in the right way to think about things, and that's what I love about what I think, that's what I love about what I think the gospel does. When people say the gospel, you know, maybe, and this can be nuanced a bit, so I mean, but feel free to pick it apart, or if someone's watching or listening, you know, the gospel is good news, yes, but when I ask people, what is the gospel, and they tell me about salvation, they tell me about a relationship with God, they tell me all these things, I say, but that was always available.

I mean, didn't Abraham have all those things? So when people break down the immediate concept of the gospel, I say, well, yes, but the good news, the newness of the news had to be something different, and I think the New Testament paints a picture that the good news is that Satan is no longer the prince, that they're actually, the newness of the gospel is that Jesus is Lord and King, he is King now.

That's, I think that's one of our, I mean, I'm more than happy to put all those things together, but the newness, the newness, the thing that was not there before is that Jesus is now King, and if Jesus is King, all of a sudden, I think for us, our thought process, that's where it gets really exciting for me is how do we think about things?

How do we, you know, like, how should we think about, okay, Jesus is King, what does that mean? And so that's what I really love about doing a film like this is you really get to have ideas and really put pressure on them and see if they break.

I love taking concepts and seeing where they just break on you, you know, and I think that's what apologetics is, that's what I think trying to have a biblical worldview, trying to be consistent, it finds where your breaking points are, and I'd rather find those breaking points through discussion and talking with people than being in a real-life, real-time scenario where all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that just snapped, and look what happened to this person, or my children, or my church, or my friends at work.

Like, I want my bad ideas to break under pressure in the lab, not out in the real world.

Good, good. Yeah, I think I agree with you. Jesus being the ruler of the kings of the earth, having all authority in heaven and on earth, that's meaningful, and that is part of the good news is that he's king, and that story has to have legs on it and actually start walking into the world, and when you do films like this and when you start having discussions like this, you are, I think, putting legs on the Christian worldview.

That's what's so important about it. So Luke, you have something you wanna say?

I was just, I'm curious what it's like to be Dougie's dude.

Dougie's dude?

Like, I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear some of the feedback and stuff you guys get from, because a lot of stuff he says we agree with, but it seems outlandish to the culture. I would just love to hear some of the stuff you guys hear.

Well, I mean, one qualifier is, I don't know if I'm Dougie's dude, but that being said, for what it's worth, when you get time to be around Doug, and I'm actually, I think this is happening right now.

We're in the midst of another Moscow pseudo-scandal in regards to how Doug Wilson has dealt with a pedophile in the church, and what is coming out ultimately is, and it's a really interesting angle of what's coming out against Doug.

Doug now is, he's actually, I've never met a man who has as titanium as a backbone as Doug Wilson has. The problem is, when you get up close to Doug, he's an absolute sweet teddy bear. I mean, he is, I mean, the amount of grace that is poured out, the amount of kindness, the things I've seen now living in a town with Doug, like he is so, and what I'm realizing now is, people that are close to Doug that end up not liking Doug, it's never because he was strict.

It's because the dude's got so much grace, the dude's got so much, he's an absolute teddy bear, and it turns out that people really want him to be this cult leader, which is always the accusation. He's got this cult up in Moscow, Idaho, and yet, but if you look at all the accusations that are coming against him even right now, he wasn't acting enough like a cult leader.

He should take people and he should have them castrated, or he should tell people that they can't get married, or he should be telling people, it's like, almost to a fault, the dude is so loving, he is so gracious, and you have to push him to get more out of him.

He does not offer that up. His blog is one world because he can sit there, he can write, and he can put things out there, but in person with Doug, he really is a man of few words, and unless you push him, and push him, and push him, and push him, and then, I mean, he's just, he's a pastor.

He's a real life pastor who's dealing with people in real time. I can barely see Doug, he's counseling people and with people in his church all day long, every single day, so I mean, but when you do get insights, it's really nice, but I'm a theology geek, so most of my time with Doug are people like that.

I'm like, hey, Book of Jude, Body of Christ, do you think that's maybe the same thing as the body of Moses? He's not talking about Christ, but he's making a reference to sort of covenant concepts, and those are the things I enjoy talking to people about, so, but yeah, it is amazing how, how tender of a human being he actually is.

You seem really good at pushing his buttons.

Yeah, you did a good job in that second trailer. Yeah, you look like you got him a little,.

A little bit unhinged.

Yeah, I do a good job of pushing most people buttons,.

You know, that's the difference.

I came up and met Doug, and I'm like, boy, I'm an ass. I'm the biggest ass on this planet. I mean, you ever met people that are just so godly, you're like, you hate yourself. Oh my goodness, like, I'm, you know.

That's funny.

You know, I'll go hang out with Kirk Cameron on something, and I'll leave, and I'll be like, I am just the worst human being on the planet. I'm like, Kirk, they just dropped off another box of used condoms and feces in front of your house with death threats, and Kirk's like, but you know, man, we just gotta pray for these people and love these people.

I'm like, what is wrong with you?

Wow.

What, are you, are you kidding me?

That's awesome, that's hilarious.

You know, and so, it's good to put yourself around people who, you know, have that, you know, temperament.

Yeah, I can point you back to Christ, and ground you, and pull you away from the fire of your sin.

Right, exactly.

Trailer Three, Political Authority, and the Kingship of Christ

Hey, okay, so hey, let's do a quick break, and then we're gonna play the final trailer, the third trailer, and then finish up this discussion. Darren Doan, right here, Apologia TV. It's been awesome, very excited about this film, and let people know, by the way, that when they get Apologia All Access, we're gonna have that little 24-hour window where they're gonna be able to watch this film as a gift from Darren Doan, so that's an amazing gift to Apologia radio listeners.

Thank you guys for listening, and thanks, Darren, for hooking us up with that.

Be right back.

So, this is an interesting trailer. Trailer number three for Stonewall is interesting, because it actually pulls together some politicians, and that's interesting.

And we've tried to get on, I might add.

Yeah, and you know, it's a

We don't have the hookups, apparently.

It's interesting, because Wilson talks a lot about Jesus as the king, and that being a very political message. Like, it's unavoidable. Like, don't deceive yourself. When you say Jesus is Lord, that's what got Christians killed in first century Rome.

That was a political statement. Jesus is the king, he's the ruler of the kings of the earth. He has all authority, even over you, Caesar. That's what got him in trouble. I mean, in Book of Acts, that's what they said.

They're running, contrary to the decrees of Caesar, which I think was a lie, and they say there's another king, Jesus. I mean, that's a political thing. I mean, it's unavoidable. Jesus is the king. That's a political statement.

And in this third trailer, Darren has some of the upcoming political candidates for the presidency, and I think it's good to watch, and I think it's important, because, let's face it, Christianity is about redemption, it's about forgiveness, it's about salvation, it's about the gift of eternal life, it's about what God has done in Christ to save people from their sins.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, amen, hallelujah. Let's get the T-shirt and the bumper stickers and let's put them on. But let's not forget about the fact that there is an inescapable point that can never be missed in terms of our message to the world.

Jesus is the king. That means he rules today, overall, and there is no realm, no sphere of authority that he's not in charge of, and that is something I think Christians have lost. The Puritans didn't lose it.

They knew Jesus is king over every area of life. Christians in history knew Jesus is king in every area of life, and we as evangelicals in the West today, particularly in the last generation, have checked out of culture in many ways.

So check out this third trailer, Stonewall, it's amazing.

A lot of the people in the secular progressive movement have not really thought these things through.

This is the difference between the conservative mindset and the liberal mindset. The conservative thinks always in terms of trade-offs. The liberal thinks in terms of solutions.

Well, abortion is murder. Look, this began when a handful of unelected judges decreed they knew better than the American people. First, you have to come to the understanding that you are taking the human life, and a lot of people just won't admit that.

And they were gonna write into the Constitution a right that doesn't exist, a right to take the life of an unborn child.

Now, do I want to kill a million people in order to achieve a pro-life objective?

Powerful, way to keep us hanging there, Darren, with that statement.

Yeah, you could tell I was sort of getting to the end of the rope, like, I gotta put something out there. I gotta get one more thing out there.

Yeah, okay, let's

Three statements, one trailer.

Yeah, let's fill it out now, Darren. Let's talk about that. I just gave a context of the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth. That's a political statement. It matters, he has authority in every realm.

That's something you believe, and that's something that really is wrapped around the context of these trailers. So let's fill it out. Talk about it.

Well, I mean, I would amen, amen, amen, amen everything you said, you know, when you sort of built that up, and then, you know, about who is Jesus, who is God, you know, death, burial, resurrection, and then you have to get up and go to work.

It's like, and then the next day, you have to get up and go to work, or the next day, you have to go to the DMV, or the next day, you have to go talk to your family members. Everyone wakes up, and then they have to go into this world, this physical world.

And you have to live in such a way that how are you going to live? Who's in charge? And all of a sudden, you know, I think that's where everything kind of falls apart for people, you know, is everyone begins to kind of bow down to all these other lesser gods in regards to when they go to live out their actual life.

And I think what, I think, you know, going back to what you were talking about in regards to why was Jesus crucified, right? It's a political environment, it's a political statement, and there are political ramifications, and that's the world, and that's the narrative in which Jesus gets crucified.