Upcoming Debates, Tom Buck and Sam Allberry, Steven Anderson and Textual Traditionalism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Greetings welcome to the dividing line. It is a Thursday last dividing line of this week, which would be normal, but tomorrow evening the

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South Texas conference begins and Justin Peters, and I will be speaking so we'll be looking forward to Meeting you folks down there lots to get done between now and then obviously which means we got to get to it and get it done and And get at it and then next weekend up in Morgan Hill California a little nervous about that,

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California You know no Constitution or anything like that. They're the People's Republic of California not very far from Sacramento, which is the absolute black hole of political common sense and so you know just just hoping

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I'll get in and out and that's sort of how it how it goes, but anyway

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We'll be taking some phone calls a little bit later on I want to do a couple things first, and we'll take some calls and Go from there first of all

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I Forgot to ask rich if he had done, but I asked to do

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But I mentioned on Facebook yesterday We have some a large number of Opportunities coming our direction

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Including one that I since we haven't gotten it. You know absolutely nailed down yet and The topic is still up in the air.

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I can't mention too much about it, but let's just say September October November is going to be really interesting on the debate front have been doing a lot of debates this year

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I've been doing a lot of traveling, but not necessarily a lot of actual formal debates, but we could add to that number come

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October and November right now hoping for at least three major debates in that time frame working with Justin Brierley on Some programs for unbelievable in just a matter of weeks when

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I'm over in London on the first part of the two times I'm there in London And one's gonna be on Romans 9, but not with him

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Someone else hopefully But but again, I don't count the unbelievable programs because man if I did then

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I'd be pushing 200 by now, but Anyway two

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Big debates overseas In coming up in this in this fall and so Those kinds of opportunities are very valuable.

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I can't tell you how many times I have spoken with people Who have said you know it was it was the debates that got me thinking about these things that got me willing to listen to the gospel

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Willing to consider what the Bible actually teaches about what the gospel is people coming out of other religious faiths to a knowledge of the truth

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Those are important things they have long Lasting value they're not just a flash in the pan

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There are still people who are watching the debates from the 1990s that we did even back then though the quality of video hopefully is better now than it's

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Especially audio. I think that first debate on Long Island This is like oh man Wouldn't have been great if we had had individual microphones on and had been recorded directly from those mics would've been great

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We eventually got to it Anyway, these are great opportunities and It does seem like there is a little bit more interest for the big debates overseas

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Maybe because we just you know, it's sort of like I haven't been to the Grand Canyon since 1985

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So That's a long time But I live in the same state with the

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Grand Canyon and the reason is well I could go Whenever I want to you know, it's no big deal

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Maybe that's why there's just not as much interest in the US. Well, we can do that anytime we want to overseas it's a little bit different and there's just more interest and so to be able to to do these debates with on important topics with Well -known people

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I got to be able to get there so I made mention on Facebook yesterday And I'll make mention of it now at the beginning of the program rather than at the end, which is normally what

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I do That we need your assistance to be able to do these things When opportunities come up you basically have to say well, we'll be able we be able to to get there to be able to to do this and You know

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London isn't that bad, but you know, Joburg Sydney places like that long trips and There's a lot of expenses that you don't think about.

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It's not just the plane ride if you're gonna for example we are looking at a debate in Sydney and I'd have to be there

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Minimally 36 hours ahead With really nothing to do during that time other than try to adjust because I'm gonna tell you something

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I I don't know why but going east is a lot easier than going far west as Far as the jet lag impact is concerned

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So it takes less out of me to be seven or eight hours That direction then 17 hours.

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Well, it's 17. It's seven hours, but backwards in a daily day earlier It's it. Oh All I know is

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I made the mistake the first time I went to Sydney of doing something the night I landed and that was a disaster So you've got you've got to have some place to be and the transportation and stuff like that and so we have something called the travel fund if you

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If you go to the donate if you click on the little donate thing on our website There will be a drop -down menu and and you can designate

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Funds there or just give to the ministry as a whole, but obviously right now

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I'm talking about the travel fund Is how you pay for all that stuff which includes, you know, very frequently

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I'm going places where we're sort of inviting ourselves and That because it opens up opportunities to do to do other things and so there's transportation hotel

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I like to eat once in a while, you know that type of thing. I don't travel with a staff

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It's just me myself and I so you know a lot of a lot of people travel with at least one other person and a lot of the big boys travel with Multiple people and so we're only we're only doing the one person

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But anyway, if you want to see these things taking place Then we could use your help

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Go to ailment org the donate button there on the is it support us?

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support us support us and there's a donate button you can see the the drop -down a thing there and Basically the the healthier that travel fund is the more that says to me

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Accept the opportunities when they when they arise Okay used to say support us now it says donate okay,

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I can't keep track of these things but anyways And no, we do not know most the big boys themselves do not have their own fleet of jets.

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We're not talking about The word -of -faith guys we do not consider them to be part of the

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Promotion of the Kingdom of God in the world today. They're not going and debating folks anywhere on anything overly

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Overly relevant. What's that? Yeah, they're going and collecting money from those folks

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We're trying to bless them and they're trying to collect money from that that that is a good description of the difference between the two so Make mention of that ask for your assistance in getting us and hopefully

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I'll be able to let you know about Some of the specifics coming up, but they're they're pretty exciting and so All right now if I wanted to be having more and more folks who would be willing to give

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I wouldn't be hosting as We did this week a series of articles by the doctor troublemaker from from Texas Pastor Tom Buck who

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Just successfully defended his dissertation. So I'm calling him. Dr. Buck He says the wait till next month when it's absolutely official, but I'm calling him.

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Dr. Buck anyways But anyhow, because it's better than troublemaker. I mean troublemaker doctor Pretty much, you know

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Dr. Troublemaker that might be as dr. Troublemaker Anyway For quite some time

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Tom has been looking especially at Material relevant to living out and You'll recall well, obviously we have been dealing with the subject of homosexuality for decades and What was his name

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Robinson young fellow that we well, you know, you know we did the

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Matthew Vines response. It was what six five six hours and the gushy response

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Which I think was six hours. And so we've we've We have really

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Invested time to go in -depth into the exegesis and the backgrounds and and and and I'll be honest with you it

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It is a hard subject to deal with It's oppressive it's an oppressive subject to deal with a

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Lot of what we're dealing with in the church today is oppressive. I find the whole social justice critical race theory critical theory period thing to be oppressive robbing of joy and happiness

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You know at least when you're dealing with Mormonism You get to speak the truth about the one true

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God or the glory of the gospel and stuff like that some of these topics just Just really take it out of you and Anyway, but we've been dealing with this particular this particular subject for a very very very long time and It just keeps coming up in new

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It keeps reinventing itself It's it's very obvious to me that back in the day when we first started, you know when

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I first saw Matthew Vines Gospel of you know

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To be it was before the Reformation project the Reformation project drew out of it But that that presentation he made at the

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Presbyterian Church in Kansas seems like many years ago now

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Was that 2011 2012 somewhere around there? anyway The conversation within Sound biblical churches was totally different than it is today.

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That's how quickly things have changed And my response to vines would be different today mainly because I would imagine his presentation would be different a and B I would have to More widely defined

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I Couldn't let's put this way. I could not assume as much unanimity on the part of my fellow

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Christians in The church in how I'd respond to Matthew Vines I think it would be a longer response because I would have to I would have to lay more of a foundation and Part of what has happened is that there has been this push starting about four years ago

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To emphasize The not just the existence of But how we should interact with the

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Not just you know, there's still a divide here not with gay Christianity Not with those who are on the one side like Matthew Vines who say

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I am gay I am Christian and I demand that you change the historical beliefs of the church to make me feel better really the

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One of the reasons that for example many quote -unquote evangelical churches aren't even involved in this subject is because One of the key issues

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One of the dividing lines here is whether we're talking about repentant individuals or non repentant individuals a non repentant homosexual a person who believes that their same -sex attraction is a gift from God and hence are unrepentant there is a whole massive movement of that You saw that in the

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United Methodist if it hadn't been for the African cohort in the United Methodist Church They would have been they would have jumped right off the cliff.

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Well, they probably would have done that a long time ago But you see that in the

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PC USA obviously in The liberal

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Lutherans and the Episcopalians and and so on so forth so you have non repentant

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Homosexual activists Promoting gay Christianity, but then what started happening a few years ago

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Is yes people starting to come out and say, you know, I Too experience same -sex attraction

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But unlike these others who have been coming out and saying and that means it's good. It needs to be

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Incorporated in life the church. I am repentant of these desires I recognize that they are not what

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God would have us to do to act upon them would be sinful and therefore

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I am a Christian Who experiences same -sex attraction but recognizes that is not something that is

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God's will for my life and There have always been people like this it's just never been a subject that has been

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Overly comfortable for anyone to address But the loud voices of the people on the one side

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Have created the space for these folks to speak up and say we reject that but we are here and You need to deal with us

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Most of us have never thought these issues through When I say most of us, let me take that back most of the people who are

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In my generation and older this was not something you talked about at church This was not something that you talked about in seminary

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And so when someone comes along and says Everything you said about those verses in the

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Bible is correct Romans 1 yep spot -on.

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Yep. That's actually what's going on in Genesis 18 and 19. Yep. Can't can't get rid of that. And yep

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Leviticus that's what it's talking about. And yeah, arson equates. Mm -hmm that you're right about all those things and I have to live in light of that Jesus honored that law.

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These are the teachings in the New Testament. I Cannot Follow these other people in unrepentantly demanding that the church

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Abandon what is plainly biblical truth? But what are you gonna do with me? because I want to faithfully follow

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Jesus and What's that gonna look like well most of us have never even thought about it and to be honest with you most of us don't want to think about it and So you started hearing?

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people coming out and Saying that I am a I experienced same -sex attraction

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But I know it's not proper for me to act upon this Well What what was that book?

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I think every time you grab that Diet root beer and drink it it makes me want to To do the same thing with my water in here.

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Yeah, I'm thirsty today In fact, I'm think I'm gonna run out here pretty soon. So I may need a need a refill But anyway,

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I just happen to notice you're doing the same thing as I was wondering if it's like yawning Where if you were yawning in there if I you know, if I started doing the same thing,

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I don't know Yeah, people are now asking on the rich cam To see you drinking diet root beer now, that's that I think that is an inappropriate utilization of The rich cam don't you think?

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Yeah, I think so, too Anyway, only reason I know it's diet root beer is because that's the only thing there was

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I think there was one can in The in the refrigerator when I looked earlier and that was so that has to be it.

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So right You don't know you don't care. Okay, never mind. Okay back to the subject

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What happened I was trying to I was hoping to during that interlude I would remember the name of the book

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Because I mainly remember where where I was listening to it where I was writing when I was listening to it out along carefree highway

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Yes, it's the same carefree highway from the from the song exact same carefree highway anyway, and I remember at the time listening this book

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I Have to go back and look at my Kindle stuff because I think it was a

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Kindle book may have been audible But I'll go back and look Well, I'll try to remember to go back and look with my schedule over the next couple of months

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I may not remember to do so. Anyways, I forget who it was, but as I listened to what was being said

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I was struck by the importance of one key issue and that is is

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Homosexual desire Simply a different How does homosexual desire relate to for example excessive heterosexual desire

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That might be seen in polyandry polyamory polygamy

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Is there something different about same -sex attraction that by the nature of The attraction itself sets itself apart now, we you know what my answer this is, you know

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What Robert Gagnon's answer to this is? The answer is yes, we derive that primarily positively from the creation ordinance

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The fact that mankind is made in The image of God and that image of God is seen in male and female

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That this is a fundamental creative aspect that therefore to Experience attraction that fundamentally denies.

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This is itself Disordered on a different level than an excessive desire for what is a proper

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Sexual experience it is appropriate for a male to be attracted to a female

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It is not appropriate for a male to be attracted to a male in the sexual realm God made us to be attracted in certain ways.

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That's how the Species continues and believe me there have been times in the history of the species that Its continuation was up in the air

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The great mortality would be a time when that was the case, but anyway There is a disorderedness a confusion a perversion in The object of desire that points to an internal twistedness and that's why

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Homosexuality is the illustration that it is in Romans chapter 1 because it's saying that the creator creation

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Relationship has been disrupted. It has been twisted all the way down to what defines us as Human beings so that Even their women give up the natural function for that, which is unnatural so on The one hand it's very easy to say well

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It's all sin and flatten it all out into it's all the result of one thing.

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You know, that's what we Criticized in the J .D. Greer sermon was it's it's all just idolatry well

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Idolatry is at the root of the vast majority of human sin to be sure to be certain

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But that does not mean that all human sin then becomes one big vanilla cake

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And it's just how much how big of a bite you're gonna take no, there is a different and there is a difference between hating your brother and is in your heart and Actually taking out a gun and shooting between the eyeballs

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They're both murder But you don't just go ahead and shoot the person because oh, well,

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I already hate him So I might as well it's not going to make any difference. Yes, it does make a difference and So Every Naturally functioning male has to admit they've experienced lust for the female form

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But there's a vast difference between experiencing that lust and then acting Upon that lust and then acting upon that lust again and again and again and again

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You know remember when the stories came out? I forget when it was back in the 90s about Magic Johnson and a bunch of the other basketball players that admitted they had had they'd had literally 10 ,000 women in their lives

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That is a Perversity it is a perversion But it's a different kind than to have a admit a

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Woman doesn't attract me only the male form does that there is a

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Disorderedness a confusion a perversity whatever are the terms we want to come up with there That exists there that does not exist in in the other situation

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And so what has happened over the past few years is now the conversation has come up Well, what do we do with people who are same -sex attracted in the church and Now you have people saying well, they can they can still have leadership positions in the church and There are people saying that same -sex couples should be allowed to adopt children

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Now I don't care whether you're Christian or non -christian I consider that child abuse

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It is it is purposefully Placing a child in a situation where they cannot where they will be denied not only denied the natural

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Example of how a husband is to love his wife how a man is to treat a woman but the unnatural same -sex attraction

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We know why Reprobate people are doing this and how they are purposefully attempting to reproduce themselves in a way

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They can't reproduce themselves in any other way But it stuns me that Christians would be

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Promoting and accepting of this kind of of situation as well. And so when

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Tom began pointing to things at the living out Website one of the things that struck me and you can check this out for yourself.

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I detect Perspective differences within the writers for living out now

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Some people I say well, I say same type of thing in TGC You've got lots of different perspectives being presented. You can't do that living out living out is specifically

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Sam Mulberry's ministry and so, you know, it would be like Because it has a specific focus

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Then there needs to be some type of consistency in what is being presented. It'd be like, you know We have different people who write for the blog it's not like we really put a ton of emphasis upon the blog, but we do have different people who write for the blog and We have

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Presbyterians and Baptists and and people of different different stripes But we are focused on apologetics and there needs to be a

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Consistency there. Well living out is primarily focused upon one subject.

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And so if you see a a

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You know perspective being being expressed then You have to ask questions as to exactly what's going on and so These these issues began to to to pop up and When I reviewed the material in is

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God anti -gay I Took the time to read

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Sam Mulberry's book which did not address this the The the same -sex attract.

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I'm sorry the transgender issue which was what I was going to review because Mr. Mulberry said certain things at the

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Ravi Zacharias thing That were really troubling and I didn't know what the source of them

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Really was and so I wanted to read published work the published works a couple years old I'm not sure what the exact age of it was but And what you encounter and what

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Tom Buck said in the article is you encounter all sorts of really good stuff all sorts of Important stuff and Sound stuff the exegesis is sound and and and that kind of thing

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But you then get these other things and sometimes they're in links and sometimes they're in these odd statements that are made in passing and That's what

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Tom found in his analysis of the website as well is you would find these links over to other places and it's just extremely troubling extremely troubling indeed and so he asked if we would post these and We started on Monday the last one was posted

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I believe this this morning as I recall Would you have would you be able to quickly?

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Grab a couple of commercial type things for a brief break before I comment on the response that has

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Come to Tom bucks articles and then We'll look at a couple of other items but that would be very helpful if we could grab something real quick and just take a quick break is that That a possibility

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He's looking He's looking probably should have those always ready queued up just just Yes, you're just walking around out there.

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You know just letting me sorry so Okay All right

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We can we need to take a break. I'll be right back in just a moment. I think

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I Hope breaking news from the White House and the issue gay marriage for a lot of people

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You know the word marriage was something that evokes very powerful traditions religious beliefs

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I think same -sex couples should be able to get married the NAACP has passed a resolution

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Endorsing gay marriage as a civil right this comes two weeks after the president announced his support for same -sex marriage

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Under the guise of tolerance our culture today grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

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Anyone opposing or questioning this today is quickly shot it down called a bigot a homophobe a hate monger

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Threatened and accused of discrimination. It's become commonplace to see people who take a biblical stand against homosexuality

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Ostracized to the point of losing their job How soon will it be before we will also see people losing their freedom now more than ever

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Christians need to be equipped to be An approved workman of God correctly dividing the word of truth as we are told in 2nd

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Timothy 2 15 dr James White and pastor Jeffrey Neal have partnered to bring you their book the same -sex controversy if you are

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Christian This book is just one of the tools you'll need to be prepared to give a proper defense of the faith in the face of The unrighteous onslaught we face today the authors right for all who want to better understand the

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Bible's teaching on this subject explaining and defending the foundational biblical passages that deal with Homosexuality including

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Genesis Leviticus and Romans in a straightforward and loving manner They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy

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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality get your copy today from the bookstore at a omen org

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And don't forget to search for other resources like debates and past dividing lines dealing with this very provocative issue and remember theology matters

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More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the

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Roman Catholic Church appealing This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and lay people to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

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Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the

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Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine

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James White points out the crucial differences that remain in regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself that cannot be ignored

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Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org

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And welcome back. Sorry folks sometimes life Life continues on even when we're in the middle of something and there was just something

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I needed to Had to take care of right then and there or I wasn't able to think straight and neither would somebody else and it's just a long story, but anyways

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All I can say is Spammers deserve a very warm place in in Hades, but we will

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Go there. All right, let's get back to what we were talking about The Reaction You know when you read

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Tom's articles These are not flame -throwing articles He's Tom isn't a flame -throwing guy

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If you know Tom, you know that he's he's a big guy But he's got a big heart

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He's he's he's just great Really is and he he wants to do what is right in all things.

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He's just he's just a real pastor guy Doctor buck, but um, but he's also very concerned about truth and The reactions

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To daring I mean, I haven't seen anybody saying well Those aren't actually links and and those articles didn't actually know the articles have been there

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What's weird is Sam has admitted that some of them are unclear You know like the one about you know one way you could you could

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Deal with your same -sex attractions go to a nudist beach What?

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I mean some of the stuff is just was just so far out there That that Sam has made said well, you know,

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I'm gonna pull that article it hasn't been pulled yet There's just all this strange stuff going on but more so are the political

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Maneuverings of high -powered people in some of the big -name ministries in the background the phone calls

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Buzzing back and forth and everything else from just daring to come out and say

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Hey This is this is troubling this there's a problem here

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You all are promoting this you bring these people in to speak and then when somebody goes the website They're getting hit with this stuff.

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Did have you checked this out? and You know, there have been the passive -aggressive tweets.

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I think it's called sub tweeting. I had to ask somebody cuz I didn't know by some big names, you know taking, you know passing shots and stuff like that and and and Just a fence being taken

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How dare you question someone like Sam Albury well, you know okay,

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I know there are some people that would be considered on my side of the aisle that would just want me to Go after Sam Albury with both barrels blazing and just simply

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Kick him off into the the flames of perdition and that's what everybody wants. I have tried to be as Absolutely fair and balanced and Just just bent over backwards to try to do

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Any review and disagreement in a proper fashion in a way that is appropriate?

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So, you know go ahead and and use that kind of argumentation you want. It just seems to me that what we're seeing is

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Emphasizing to me more and more and I I'm gonna have to do some programs on this in the near future, but It's emphasizing for me more and more the reality that we are living in an age where the

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In Infection of our ways of thought by critical theory is Reaching critical mass.

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It's too bad. We're using the term critical in 14 different ways and can't define it any one particular way, but Critical theory is what holds all this together.

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If you understand critical theory, then you understand what's going on here You can have critical race theory critical gender theory critical space theory put anything in there that can be an oppression oppressor category and you'll have it so Jussie Smollett gay plus black plus Hollywood equals

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Who needs to prosecute him why because in the new critical world

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The greatest moral Imperative is to do away with Oppression.

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Now, here's the problem. We Christians define oppression from the Bible That's not what oppression means to these folks not even close to what it means to these folks

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If you are a gay black man, then you are in two oppressed groups

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Then make yourself a Movie or television star and I had never even heard the guy never seen this whatever

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Empire or whatever it is I've never seen it would have no interest in ever seeing it's irrelevant to me, but that doesn't matter you get your oppression points for being gay and black and Then you get your positive social justice points for being a

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Hollywood elite Combine those things together and the greatest moral good is

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For you to Do away with oppression so remember what he said it is

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I'm gonna continue working for the betterment of and the ceasing of oppression against people and Minorities and so and see that's your virtue signaling.

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That's your good part and it's more important To do justice which in critical theory justice is doing away with oppression

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Even if there is no meaningful definition of oppression Even if he was the one doing the oppression by breaking the law that doesn't matter in The critical world in which we now live you have to add up the intersectional categories

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And that's what that's what defines what should be done now law irrelevant

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Truth Justice that is blind Irrelevant doesn't exist anymore

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Doesn't exist anymore. So it seems like even in the Christian Church one of the parts of the reaction to this has been look

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Sam Albury Experiences same -sex attraction and so that puts him in a different category.

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He has not claimed that for himself I'm seeing it being claimed for him by the very same people who tend to be the social justice warriors

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How dare you criticize someone who is? oppressed critical thought coming into the church folks critical thought

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And biblical Christianity are at opposite ends of the spectrum absolute opposite ends of the spectrum and It just seems that there are a lot of people who have very quickly become deeply maybe fatally infected with the critical theory in the way that they look at all of life and It is

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Amazing that now obviously there's been plenty of people Who have positively responded thanked?

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Tom buck for taking the time to do this and to to speak to these issues and there are all sorts of people especially within the

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Southern Maps Convention who agree that This needs to be pointed out these are issues that need to be addressed

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But They can't say anything about This can't say anything about it's the 11th commandment again

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And the 11th commandment will kill the Southern Maps Convention The 11th commandment will result in a fracturing of the

42:24

Southern Maps Convention sooner or later because the 11th commandment is contradictory to the 9th commandment

42:32

In essence because by your silence you end up promoting untruth So as long as the 11th commandment continues to be obeyed by the leaders there will never be any meaningful debate within the convention and Then there's only one inevitable result of that and that will be the destruction of the convention

42:54

So there you go So it will be interesting to see over the next next few days.

42:59

I I do not predict What I predict is what I'm actually seeing even in In my feed even as I've been glancing over at it briefly my prediction is a passive aggressive

43:14

We're gonna support you Type thing, you know all these nice warm tweets about all we've just our church has just been so blessed by living out instead of Well, let's deal with these subjects.

43:29

Let's deal with these issues. Let's let's let's ask the hard questions I don't expect that that that's that that's gonna happen.

43:36

That's what needs to happen. I don't expect that it's That it will so there you go

43:43

I hadn't seen your comment in the stack until just now and I can

43:49

I can assure everyone Remember I was talking about the travel fund earlier There is not another

43:55

Steve Tassi Encounter coming up. That's not second. I can have okay

44:01

I Spent a lot longer in that than I expected to partly because we took the break. I apologize for that I have a new head not headphone, but earpiece thingy here

44:10

So I can because we will eventually get the microphone working. We will we will make it happen

44:17

But till then I I really want to I've But not getting this done So even if I have to sacrifice the the calls today,

44:26

I want to get to let's let's stick with let's see what happens But I Do have a few minutes worth of still chapter 3 left with Steven Anderson.

44:37

So total if the last subject bores you or Doesn't bore you but depresses you

44:44

We're gonna be changing subjects here And it's not just weird Steven Anderson stuff

44:49

There's stuff here that I think is relevant to to a lot of areas of apologetics So we go back to Steven Anderson's response to the

44:57

King James on the controversy We're in chapter 3 which we've tried to be getting we tried to get this done. I don't know how many times

45:03

I just keep getting distracted. I apologize Let's jump back into it right now And then he said the reality is that the amount of variation between the two most extremely different New Testament manuscripts would not

45:15

Fundamentally alter the message of the scriptures So what James White says over and over again is that the changes in the modern versions don't affect doctrine if we took the the most

45:24

Different manuscripts it still doesn't affect doctrine And of course we demonstrated over and over again in our film

45:31

New World Order Bible versions that the changes in the modern versions do affect doctrine they affect salvation they affect doctrines regarding hell and the

45:39

Trinity and all kinds of different things now, it's interesting an article

45:46

Was put out by an individual who's been sniping at me for about a quarter of a century now just last week that though He would not be supportive of Stephen Anderson in general

46:01

Likewise made the same argument and attempted to make that argument by looking at individual variants in Codex Sinaiticus in one book of the

46:11

Bible over against the general Byzantine readings as a as a whole one of which for example that I pointed out was whether a

46:24

Slave referred to his master as courteous or not and that this somehow indicated that you would end up with a different doctrine again my point has been and I stand by it and the more people attempt to get around it the more than all they do is actually document it is

46:42

When you look at the New Testament as a whole and do not cut it up into little parts

46:49

The most Alexandrian manuscript versus the most Byzantine manuscript and I know

46:55

I'm using what are now dated categories there, but It's still useful in at least some some context is going to teach us that there is one true

47:06

God who exists in a triune nature that the second person of That triune

47:14

Godhead entered into flesh that he did so voluntarily to give his life as a ransom for sinners

47:21

That we are to repent and to believe in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and for the receipt of eternal life and that God is building a church

47:33

That that is the body of Christ that Christ is going to return and all the issues regarding adoption and sanctification and justification

47:42

If you apply the same methods of interpretation to those the two extreme ends of the manuscript spectrum

47:54

You're going to come up with all of those teachings as I have said many times before the list of verses

48:02

That you might have for a particular doctrine might change I've used the illustration of second first Timothy 3 316 versus John 1 18 and first Timothy 3 16

48:13

Byzantine manuscripts Jesus called God not in other manuscripts and Vice versa in John 1 18 where Jesus is called

48:22

God in those other manuscripts, but not in the Byzantine manuscripts and so You're gonna have a different List at some points, it's not a radical difference, but you're gonna have a different list

48:37

Those who are primarily interested in promoting Their books or a particular perspective or just being a gadfly and getting attention for themselves

48:52

I feel sorry for them for many reasons, but and this issue I find offensive.

48:58

I know why Anderson does it Because Anderson has to do it because if Anderson admitted this then most of his yelling and screaming and railing and the same thing with all the other

49:11

NAFB NIFB guys or Gene Kim, you know getting down on his knees in in Asheville and all the rest this type of stuff

49:23

They'd have no reason to be doing it But Once you recognize this then you recognize that this is an important aspect of How God has preserved his word and it also

49:41

Demonstrates the lie that so many people have that well

49:47

You have to have a certain Absolute Manuscript tradition to be able to say that you have the

49:56

Word of God The King James translators did not believe this King James translators made positive statements

50:03

For example concerning the Greek Septuagint the Greek Septuagint has a different transmission history than the Masoretic text and yet Very plainly the early church viewed it as as the

50:12

Word of God You you you just have to close your eyes to the reality of history and accept a very truncated

50:22

Simplified and inaccurate view of things to come up with this perspective But it has a really it really

50:30

Attracts people there are people who really want to believe that what I'm Holding now is the text given to the church and I don't have to worry about all that other stuff

50:43

I don't have to I can just preach through John 118 and never mention anything

50:50

About the footnotes again. In fact, I just want a Bible translation It doesn't have any of those footnotes, which means you can't use the original

50:56

King James, but most of the King James Translation of printings today don't have any of the footnotes that included textual issues initially

51:07

That way you can ignore the annotations of Erasmus. You could ignore the notes in Stephanos You can ignore ignore the work that Beza did you can just ignore all that stuff?

51:16

And just go I've got what the church has always had It's not true, but you can feel that way and I understand the attraction

51:26

I understand Why and this is the terminology that?

51:32

Dan Wallace is used that there are people who are willing to trade truth for certainty.

51:39

I Have certainty so I have to worry about any of this stuff anymore. Well The problem is you you don't have certainty you may you can pretend

51:52

Steve Steven Anderson pretends and you can tell when he knows he's pretending is when he just starts yelling louder

52:00

And starts using abusive language. He knows he's pretending at that point But that kind of pretend may make you feel better But it won't survive outside the safe little realm of Your church or your fellowship?

52:25

It's not going to survive Out in the real world where we all need to be these days that that world where There are people who are literally being fined and imprisoned for misgendering people

52:45

Where Somebody and I bet you if you just came up with a guy the person's name that did it it would explain everything

52:52

But the story came out last week. Dr. Moller mentioned it on the briefing this morning.

52:57

I think or yesterday morning wanted to Where an Iranian Seeking asylum in the

53:04

UK was refused because someone in the home office Was cherry -picking verses out of the

53:12

Bible to say that Christianity is just as violent as Islam that's the world we live in and so That's why

53:22

I'm concerned about anyone embracing theories that would fundamentally preclude them from being able to engage in that realm of Of Giving a meaningful defense for the scriptures

53:41

Now we know the the film was laughable that Anderson produced

53:50

We expected that But I'm Speaking of beyond the

53:56

Steven Anderson realm to other areas where claims of Certainty in regards to a particular form of the

54:09

Greek text have become Very very popular very very popular indeed

54:17

So If I don't stop there I will never get any of this done because of the fact that Egypt in the

54:23

Bible is this place that spiritually symbolizes That which is wicked in Revelation chapter 11.

54:28

It talks about that city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt We're also our Lord was crucified there always go down into Egypt and Egypt represents the world it represents sin

54:38

It represents wickedness and so forth. So that's where the modern version text type is coming from Alexandria Egypt, well, of course

54:47

The actual location of the copying is unknown The The fact that we obviously find more papyri in Egypt is sort of easy to understand

55:00

It is an exceptionally arid environment, which is what papyrus needs to stay in one piece, of course gets rather brittle, but the point is that You're not going to find papyri surviving

55:21

Inland in Italy in those places where you get the rain bands coming through all the time

55:27

Why well because if it's wet then you're gonna have Fungal growth and you're gonna have all sorts of other things and bugs and so on so forth

55:36

That will end up destroying these manuscripts Burying them in desert sand is a fairly effective mechanism of preservation and So that's why you have them coming from that particular

55:51

Area we don't know the specific Geographical originations. There's almost no manuscript at all

55:57

That says copied on the year of our Lord such as such such in such such place until much later in In church history outside of the realm of where it's any longer overly relevant once the text types are already you know coming into existence and history has begun to Produce Latin manuscripts more in the

56:18

West and and then Islam comes across North Africa and all the rest that type of stuff happens.

56:24

So But here you get the the King James only idea mindset

56:31

That the you know, the Bible says it's evil there. And of course, it's so easy to demonstrate

56:40

It was out of Alexandria Egypt That Athanasius bishop of the church in Alexandria comes

56:49

Who stands alone in defense of what every King James only us believes today the deity of Christ?

56:57

and while the people that he would say We're using the right

57:03

Bible manuscripts. We're collapsing right and left and giving in on the subject of the deity of Christ Instead you have

57:15

Athanasius the Egyptian Bishop of Alexandria going into exile five times

57:24

Because he will not give in on this and what what text is he using to defend the deity of Christ?

57:30

It's not what we would call the Byzantine text today. It is the dreaded Alexandrian readings that he is

57:37

Drawing from which also gives the other lie to the idea that there is just one text has been given to the church

57:44

That is not the case. And I think the Council of Nicaea was important and Chalcedon was important What text did the church have then?

57:56

when these foundational issues were being dealt with and Why doesn't why doesn't?

58:04

The the move of the Spirit of God at that time Have as much meaning as the move the

58:13

Spirit of God in the Reformation Because there are some who would say well, you know, it just so happens that You know at the same time that Europe is is at least part of Europe is freed

58:24

From the tyranny of Rome and the Word of God is going forth and the Lutherans are are

58:30

Emphasizing education and the reading of scripture and so on and so forth You know, this is the

58:35

Greek text that was used and so shouldn't that be the Greek text that we use? Well, how about back in the days of Nicaea?

58:41

We're told that that during the Run up to Nicaea that in cities all across All across Egypt and up through the

58:55

Caesarea in places like that That everybody that shopkeepers and and Everybody were arguing in the streets about the nature of Jesus and and Pre -existence and stuff like that Seems like just as good a time period to say, ah, let's use the text that was prevalent at that time, right?

59:18

Well would seem so I don't believe that you determine the text based upon what was going on at a certain point in time going

59:26

Ah, I see the Holy Spirit of God working there. Therefore. Let's use that text Where does that how does how does that substantiate anything?

59:33

I don't I don't see that it's a that it does The 4th century AD is several hundred years after the fact folks.

59:40

So that's plenty of time for them to be corrupted and changed. I Missed the context there. Let me back up.

59:46

Sorry Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which by the way are from the 4th century AD So they say well, these are older and more reliable The 4th century

59:55

AD is several hundred years after the fact folks So that's plenty of time for them to be corrupted and changed part of part of what threw me off There is it sound like he was playing something from a movie because the well is because somebody's practicing the piano in the background remember

01:00:10

His kids are playing the piano in the background and and it and it came to us. I was going How'd I miss the context there?

01:00:17

Anyway? Yeah, you know what the 4th century is Plenty of time for corruption to take place but once again, even classical scholars

01:00:32

You know one of the assumptions one thing I need to get back to doing that I need to get back to doing that presentation

01:00:40

Even classical scholars Function on the assumption in looking at the

01:00:46

New Testament manuscripts that scribes attempted to faithfully communicate what they had in front of them and So there is a simple reason why antiquity is relevant

01:01:01

Why something from the 4th century By necessity is going to have fewer generations of copying between it and the original

01:01:11

Then something from the 12th century now, there are rare exceptions to that We know of 9th 10th century manuscripts that are copies of 2nd or 3rd century manuscripts and But that would be the rarity that wouldn't be the norm it couldn't be the norm just by the normal means of the transmission of the text in a handwritten form and so This is an attempt to get around the reality that the

01:01:40

King James readings or the TR readings Tend to be to represent the ecclesiastical text of the 12th of the 14th centuries primarily and one particular stream of that because of the limited number of manuscripts that Erasmus had had access to so This is a philosophical difference between King James only and the textual criticism crowd.

01:02:03

What's the fundamental difference? I keep coming back to this folks. Now. Let me just point out again, and I've Pointed this out in regards to the ecclesiastical text stuff

01:02:15

There can't be a difference between us in the sense that The TR came about through the application of textual critical principles

01:02:27

We've been looking at Beyond what is written We've been looking at the the principles that Erasmus used in the production of his text and so You can

01:02:42

What what these guys what what Anderson is openly doing is saying the

01:02:47

King James is a standard The TR You know, he does he mocked he put he put a video up mocking

01:02:55

Gene Kim For that clip that was put out For being at Sluder's he was preaching at Sluder's Church Sluder was the one who was waving his

01:03:04

Bible at him and trying to you know, he's on fire and He put out a video mocking these people's and it's just a bunch of idiot rektards

01:03:14

That's that's term that he you know, they use term rektard. Yeah, they refer them to them as rektards

01:03:20

So there's no love lost in this this particular Between the

01:03:25

NIF bees and the and the Reckmanites So, you know, I didn't listen to that whole sermon. I I wonder if Gene Kim has ever gone after Steven Anderson Now that would be interesting.

01:03:36

I would I would I would that would be yeah Yeah, that would be yeah what name

01:03:42

I don't know that he'd come up with something but I'm still I'm still trying to figure out the Thing that he did in the in the cameras

01:03:53

Anyway So so Anderson on the one hand wants to mock these guys appropriately for saying the original

01:04:05

Greek is stupid It's irrelevant Yeah, but then he won't

01:04:12

Go the rest away and realize Well, my text didn't just pop into existence

01:04:17

He wants to say it's been the text been delivered to the church, but then he doesn't want to deal with the reality of What Erasmus had to do what

01:04:29

Erasmus did the sources he used and the textual critical Principles upon which he created the

01:04:36

TR so I'm gonna take a text It was created from a minimum number of manuscripts by textual critical principles by one person

01:04:45

Stand on that and then criticize the entire groups of scholars that stand on a

01:04:53

Thousand times the number of manuscripts applying the same textual critical principles

01:05:00

But now there's scholars that are criticizing each other and so you've got you've got much more in the way of of consistency

01:05:08

That can be accomplished especially because the fact we can communicate with each other

01:05:13

I mean, can you imagine if if Erasmus had not been under such a time strain and and could have communicated with others

01:05:22

Who agreed with him or had knowledge like him that may make many people did And The TR would be different than it is today it would be and So if you make it the standard you have to keep this type of stuff in mind

01:05:38

You have to recognize that there's a historical reality going on here The fundamental difference is that we believe in the received text that was passed down to us they believe in digging up something that's been buried for over a thousand years and Changing the

01:05:53

Bible based on new findings that they just dug up Recently, okay, so because they say well, this is older now.

01:06:01

This is this is a common Refrain from Anderson, but you also hear it amongst others

01:06:08

The idea is that if you accept textual critical principles

01:06:15

That the New Testament text is infinitely malleable. I was listening to a

01:06:22

Webcast last week Where it was said hey You could let's say there was a huge manuscript find of a bunch of papyrus manuscripts 150 papyrus manuscripts from AD150 now that would be huge.

01:06:40

Okay, that would be massive and that would double the number of papyri that we have But they all

01:06:48

Don't contain John 316 and so therefore if you were consistent you'd have to delete

01:06:55

John 316 from the Bible and The idea was see that's consistent

01:07:03

If you really believe in the textual critical stuff And this is a person saying we shouldn't do that even though that's how they got their text

01:07:14

Then You would have to get rid of John 316 now the problem is that no one in The field believes the

01:07:25

New Testament is Malleable in this way when for example

01:07:33

Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Became generally known Vaticanus have been known for hundreds of years

01:07:40

Erasmus knew of Vaticanus And it was just called the

01:07:46

Vatican manuscript but When Sinaiticus then became published lo and behold what had seemed to be a strange variant that was known in some translations and A few manuscripts.

01:08:03

It was known that Vatican manuscript had John 118 where Jesus is called God All of a sudden

01:08:09

Sinaiticus has the same reading if I recall correctly one has the article one doesn't but both use the

01:08:15

Aus and Then what 80 years later the papyri begin to be found and Identified and published and lo and behold p66 and p75 are two earliest manuscripts of the

01:08:39

Gospel of John Same reading they didn't introduce a reading we had known about that reading for a long time

01:08:46

And in fact even before Vaticanus in The readings of early church fathers.

01:08:52

We knew that their early church fathers that had manuscripts that had God at John 118 So it wasn't that some new reading that had never been heard of before was introduced

01:09:04

I don't believe that that could happen and I don't believe that could happen because we have multiple lines of transmission of the text of the

01:09:11

New Testament and so if There was a You know major variant

01:09:21

Involving the entire verse of John 316. We would already know about that We would already have discussions of it in the patristic sources.

01:09:29

We'd have Telltale evidence of that within the early translations There would be there would be some manuscript evidence of it the idea of finding a hundred and fifteen pristine papyri manuscripts

01:09:40

All of which had the same Massive variant at John 316.

01:09:46

I Can't think of a single Practicing scholar in the field that would that would even go that's a meaningful hypothetical the

01:09:57

New Testament text is not infinitely malleable and In fact, even

01:10:02

Ermin has argued that in essence. We're just fiddling around with the text right now we we we know it as well as we can know it and There really isn't any reason that's why a lot of people have shifted their attention away from The classical application of textual criticism into basically exegeting variants and scribes and things like that but here

01:10:32

Anderson is saying that What we have is just simply we've dug up in the past hundred years.

01:10:37

That's just simply not true and One of the things that demonstrates that that is not true by any stretch of the imagination is the fact that if you look at the

01:10:50

CBGM modules online Keep something in mind if you play around with them long enough, you'll start figuring out how to use them and You'll see these charts of agreements and you'll see percentages

01:11:05

Percentage agreements keep something in mind. Those are agreements in the variants

01:11:12

Where there are differences not agreements overall So even where there are differences the average is around 87 % agreement in the differences once you expand that out to the entire text as Has been said for a long time now the computer is verifying it for us in a way we never could have done before The agreement of manuscripts in the whole body of the

01:11:42

New Testament is in the high 90s So The idea that you could have

01:11:51

Massive interruptions of the text that we have not yet seen in Any of the manuscripts that have been found next to an impossibility, it's next to an impossibility and So it is an invalid argument to take something that is is absolutely next to an impossibility and say well that means

01:12:10

That if you follow textual critical principles, that's what you have to believe harassments didn't believe that I would say this though In fact, this will this will make a few people very unhappy.

01:12:21

I Will say this From what I've read of Erasmus modern most modern

01:12:31

Practicing textual critical scholars have a higher view of the consistency of the manuscript tradition than Erasmus did.

01:12:40

I really think they do I Think there is a presupposition That has a higher standard in the modern

01:12:49

Situation than Erasmus even had in what he was looking at So if you're if you're going to on the one hand say

01:12:59

I'm gonna hold on to the TR because The critical theory means we could lose

01:13:05

John 316 the guy that gave you the TR used the same principles and Probably didn't have as high a view of the consistency of the manuscript tradition as the people doing the work on What would be

01:13:19

NA 29 or really it's not any 29 that the numbers are irrelevant. It's ECM They're doing the work on the

01:13:26

ECM today and I'm not sure that Erasmus would necessarily agree even with the presuppositions of CBGM in regards to the

01:13:37

Way that scribes copied manuscripts, which is an interesting interesting observation to To make that I got it.

01:13:45

I got to get this done Okay It makes more sense to believe that the one that God has used over the years

01:13:52

That's been copied and preached and read and used and it's been used to win people the Lord for centuries

01:13:58

Is the right Bible not the one that had to be dug up by an archaeologist in the 19th century or even the 20th century

01:14:06

Interesting enough, this is Anderson saying it but I I heard the same argument from a non

01:14:11

King James only TR advocate That well, it just it just makes sense if God has used this.

01:14:17

Well God used the Latin Vulgate God used the Greek Septuagint You don't determine the proper reading of Revelation 14 10 based upon what you think

01:14:28

God used I mean Roman Catholics will think

01:14:34

God used a different form of the text Because they will think that God was moving greatly at a different time in history

01:14:41

There are Mormons that think that Joseph Smith God used Joseph Smith and and so so if God look at this huge church

01:14:50

We've built up look at the rate of growth. We've had therefore Joseph Smith's changes to the text were valid This is not how you do textual criticism.

01:14:58

And this is why when I hear reformed guys Saying the same thing as Steven Anderson or the

01:15:05

Mormons I go guys you myth you you got off the road You you took it you took a turn there

01:15:12

You don't you can't go that direction you're not gonna stay out there very long before you realize whoops we

01:15:18

Yeah, we do we took a we took a wrong turn someplace back there today So the vast majority of manuscripts are the

01:15:24

Byzantine text type the one that lines up with the King James It's this small minority of Egyptian garbage that the modern versions are based on and again quote -unquote modern versions

01:15:38

What an accurate statement would be is that when there is variation

01:15:45

The tendency of modern scholarship is to view the older texts as having more authority

01:15:52

That would be a fair way of saying it instead It's like well, it's all based upon these these just these few little manuscripts over here and that's just simply not the case

01:16:03

Because again, we're talking about Even where there are variations 87 % agreement in General and hence on the entirety of the

01:16:14

New Testament text a much much higher Level of agreement at at that point, so it's you know, you got to make that aside sound as bad as possible.

01:16:24

He says KJV only advocates are quick to assert that those who do not join them in making the King James Version the final authority in all

01:16:30

Things do not believe in the preservation of Scripture and yet that is what we're saying because James White doesn't believe in the preservation of Scripture He thinks that we have to keep digging up new things to try to somehow reconstruct what the

01:16:43

Bible said when the Apostles wrote it No, of course, I don't and it's it's interesting. He didn't bother to Even Engage the added material that I provided that fully expanded upon this and it doesn't surprise me

01:16:58

I've not had King James only advocates who are really King James only advocates Really interact with what

01:17:05

I've said about my belief in the preservation of Scripture and how it's been preserved

01:17:11

That's been preserved within the manuscript tradition Not by the establishment of one manuscript or one family of manuscripts is the ultimate authority in all things

01:17:21

But in the sudden and widespread Distribution of the manuscripts all across the known world that time so that there could be

01:17:28

No destruction of those of the the teachings of Scripture. No insertion.

01:17:34

No deletion Since you have multiple authors writing at multiple times to multiple audiences at multiple places

01:17:40

There's never a time when any one person or group of people can control the text so as to edit it and change it

01:17:47

That is I think a meaningful Relevant and historically defensible doctrine the preservation of the scriptures

01:17:56

It's interesting that if you try to go beyond What history actually provides you in regards to the preservation of Scripture you end up undercutting it

01:18:07

You end up undercutting the actual basis for believing in the preservation of Scriptures So if you want to say the

01:18:16

Kamiohanion is original Then apply the same standards of textual criticism that would give you first John 5 7 in the

01:18:26

TR in the later editions of Erasmus Apply that anywhere else in the

01:18:31

New Testament and you're no longer going to have a New Testament You're going to have you're going to have completely different rules to substantiate the

01:18:39

TR reading at Revelation 14 1 or 2 2 or 16 5 or first John 5 7 or over there in Ephesians 3 whatever you're gonna have to use different standards for each one, which means you can never defend the the preservation of Scripture against someone who doesn't start with your presuppositions and so and especially with the comma if if Something that important can disappear from the entire

01:19:04

Greek manuscript tradition for basically 1 ,400 years and there's no reason to believe in any of it It is the strongest argument against preservation if you're actually gonna go that direction so my point is if You try to go beyond what has been given

01:19:21

You end up undercutting the value of what has been given to us Because you have to abandon that for something else and that's what you have in Anderson That's what you have in the

01:19:31

TR movement, too. I mean if we dig up something tomorrow that scholars Date and test and say this is older and more reliable some papyrus is found

01:19:42

James White will literally change his Bible to match that papyrus. Of course not. I've already we you know,

01:19:47

I just discussed this Anderson doesn't understand it. A lot of people don't understand it He doesn't understand it because of bias and because if he did understand it then most of his arguments would collapse

01:20:00

But it's the same type of argument that you're getting from for other people on other subjects as well Which is which is rather interesting.

01:20:05

I mean They'll come out with a new edition of his Greek New Testament folks So yeah, how can you say you believe in the preservation of Scripture when you want to change?

01:20:15

Scripture based on findings in the 19th and 20th century and even the 21st century. They're ready to change it again folks

01:20:21

Well, you know you keep using that word preservation I don't think it means what you think it means, you know If the if the Bible has been preserved unto us

01:20:27

We don't have to go dig it out of a hole somewhere and find something new to somehow reconstruct the original

01:20:33

So, you know, I understand why for people who do not have a background in in New Testament Studies and the manuscripts

01:20:44

I fully understand why this sounds like a good argument it's not a good argument, but it sounds good and Unfortunately, we live in a day where How something sounds is often much more relevant to whether it's could be accepted than how solid it is on a historical footing

01:21:06

That's why those of us who are Serious about apologetics and serious about defending the text of New Testament within context globally with Islam and and Atheism and whatever it might be we have to do a better job in getting our people to understand where the

01:21:27

New Testament came from so they can see the value of The breadth of the

01:21:34

New Testament manuscript tradition the great gift that the papyri are that demonstrate the consistencies of readings up into the unseals and then into the

01:21:44

Middle Ages and all the way through to to where we are today where You can you can trace these things you the idea of Councils taking doctrines out and putting doctrines in absolutely impossible.

01:21:57

They see most people haven't even thought about that kind of stuff They may have a wacky

01:22:02

New Age and that has talked about reincarnation having once been the Bible and was taken out the

01:22:08

Council of Ephesus But never gave a second thought. Well, how do you respond to that? That's actually connected to what your textual critical theory is whether you know, you have one or not you do

01:22:18

Even those who say you shouldn't still do you have to it's just it's it's it's like you have to breathe

01:22:26

And in this field, you have to have a textual critical theory You've got one whether you know it or not. And so this sounds just wonderful Oh God is preserved and what that means is it's a smuggled argument and here is the text he preserved

01:22:40

That's the huge leap. Oh He's preserved it and it's this well, the problem is and that's why

01:22:48

I talked about this in the book, you're not the first person to have made that argument and That arguments been used all down through the years for different texts and If you're going to accept something on the basis of tradition

01:23:06

You could end up with something that is not quite as accurate as you'd like it to be just a couple more quotes and we're Gonna wrap this up because God's people can recognize what is inspired from what is not inspired

01:23:17

Okay, I believe that okay That's why I believe the King James Because the Holy Spirit tells me that the

01:23:23

King James is the Word of God when I hear the King James version the Holy Spirit Bears witness with my spirit that that's the

01:23:30

Word of God Obviously He hasn't talked to too many more missionaries recently who use the exact same argument for the

01:23:38

Book of Mormon This is textual criticism by my feelings. I Don't know if he gets a burning in the bosom when that happens, but this is this is textual criticism by feelings it's very common and Here's where?

01:23:53

This is where there's an issue. You need to realize that there are people who?

01:24:00

try to confuse the Presuppositional understanding of the formation of the canon with this kind of argument for the specific readings of The New Testament there is a great gulf affixed between the two

01:24:18

But people are trying to drag the arguments from the one over into the other there is a difference between the church speaking to the canonicity of John and The church speaking to whether the

01:24:32

Percocet adultery should be in John 7 53 3 8 11 If you can't see what the difference is there

01:24:38

You're gonna have a problem, but there is a difference between those two things that require you to conceptually recognize

01:24:49

The historical reality of how scripture was given to us. I can't expect that from Anderson But my reformed brothers shouldn't be arguing in similar fashions

01:24:59

But yet when I told James White that the reason I believe the King James Bible is that you know it's a boy

01:25:04

I recognize the voice of the Shepherd and that the new versions are false because You know, I hear them and I can tell that they're false because the

01:25:10

Holy Spirit guides me into all truth You know, he acted like that's a ridiculous reason. He didn't accept that reason

01:25:15

Okay, but yet in his book here. He explains. Well, that's how we knew which books are writing which ones are Notice, he's conflating canon with textual criticism real common problem

01:25:27

Generally, I find this to be convincing to people who a have never attempted to defend the canon

01:25:34

Against Roman Catholics or Mormons or others in public debate and be have never collated a manuscript in life

01:25:42

Once you've done those two things you can tell the difference But till then it seems that for a lot of folks it all just is a mushy squishy thing

01:25:48

You can sort of put them all together certainly is for for Anderson at that point two quotes left

01:25:54

I'm gonna get them done. How do we know the King James is inspired because we read it and it has the power of God It's the

01:26:00

Bible that has power it's the Bible that gets the job done What's the fruit of these modern versions a bunch of liberalism and garbage and lame watered -down churches?

01:26:09

Look, all the best churches are preaching out of King James folks Best according to who that's according to the

01:26:14

Holy Spirit friend. There you go folks. You can't argue with that I mean, it's you know, Gail Riplinger, you know, why did you call it the

01:26:21

NES V? Because that's what God calls it. Hey when you get personal revelation, that's pretty much Trump card of debate, isn't it?

01:26:27

God told me Yeah You know, we chuckle but that's how these these people really are thinking and it's a clear demonstration that You really wonder if they really do believe in solo scriptura they're getting to getting divine revelation he then has a 10 page section that's kind of not relevant.

01:26:51

It's something that was added in this edition It's not in the original 1995 edition of the book. He added this for 2009 and basically he's just explaining that he's better at debating

01:27:01

Muslims because he's not King James only, you know That's what he wants to explain how he's so good at debating these

01:27:07

Muslims and how King James only is they're not going to be Able to debate the Muslims. Yeah, I don't want to debate the Muslims I want to preach the gospel to Muslims and you know debating people doesn't get him saved

01:27:15

I mean arguing with Muslims isn't what gets him saved folks. You got to preach them the gospel It's the power of God's Word and the power of the gospel story that's going to bring salvation

01:27:24

It's not a bunch of archaeology and textual criticism that stuff just doesn't win people to Christ folks.

01:27:31

So Now I really hope that Steven Anderson never does debate a meaningful

01:27:38

Muslim because he's certainly not capable of doing it but the point is he didn't even seem to understand what the what the whole reason for the expansion was in in the second edition of the book and How relevant it is to this very issue

01:27:54

Because the Muslims are using similar arguments just go back and watch my debate without a machine in London Hey as long as we can get back to Uthman good enough for me.

01:28:04

I've got my I've got my traditional text Yeah, so you're gonna come at him with the same argumentation

01:28:13

You're gonna accept his argumentation that you know, this is what God's given us as long as we can get to that That's good enough. And I I've got the

01:28:18

TRS gonna well, that's gonna accomplish a lot, isn't it? Well, no, it's not but he didn't get it.

01:28:23

He didn't understand it. He didn't even see how relevant it was To to the issue. So there you go.

01:28:29

That's That's a that got that. Well, I had something else cute up here. I'll keep it for future future use looking forward to Being in South Texas.

01:28:43

I will not be eating any food in the San Antonio Airport and protest

01:28:50

To their banning Chick -fil -a I will find a Chick -fil -a somewhere in San Antonio to eat.

01:28:56

That's what I need to do. Maybe sent on my flight out We can find a

01:29:02

Chick -fil -a. Oh, no, I fly out on Sunday. Oh well Well, I could

01:29:08

I could get something on Saturday and then stuff the food inside it and use the bag and I'll just sit right outside of TSA or the big old

01:29:16

Chick -fil -a bag and And do my protest that way but anyway

01:29:23

What oh, yeah, yeah, so the week after is a short week because I go up Thursday to Southern California to Northern California So There's only one opportunity to do

01:29:46

Dividing line next week and that will be in the morning of Wednesday did we say nine?

01:29:54

Maybe we said nine. So nine our time is noon Eastern Time right now Our time is of course, correct all year round but anyway so early morning on Wednesday is when we will do the dividing line

01:30:13

Lord willing and Then I think we've got about a week and a half Before I then head for the

01:30:20

UK Netherlands and stuff like that after that. So there you go. There you go So thanks for listening to the program today, and we'll see you on Wednesday.