Book of 2 Thessalonians - Ch. 2, Vs. 1-2 (02/03/2002)

Let's have a word of prayer, and we'll go ahead and start early today.

Lord, thank you for our services today already and our fellowship together, our time that you give us to spend

together for our strengthening and equipping to go and fulfill your

purpose.

We're excited that you called us to be your own and to

live this life for you in this time.

We live in the most exciting days of all time that we can see anyway, and we

thank you that you seem fit to put us on the playing field and given

us duties and important things to accomplish.

And thank you that you didn't just put us out there without a strategy and without

guidance.

So give us more of that today, and we ask it in Jesus' name.

Amen.

Are y 'all too cool, or is it okay?

Because I'm up here under these lights, and it's not hot, so that tells me it might be cool out there.

Paul,

open the little door to that thing, and there's a little button that says hold on it.

Does it say hold on it, Marianne?

Doesn't it say hold?

Punch the hold button once.

Did it go up to the numbers move?

Okay, good.

Alright, we are in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, aren't we?

Alright.

We're going to cover one verse today.

Now let me get you to do something.

I've lost part of my message.

Wait a minute.

I know where to find it, though.

I left it in the office.

Hold on just a second here.

When you have a concordance, you're never completely lost.

I think I can do this quicker, really.

Okay, I may miss one of these, but I think these will be right.

Let me prepare this message with a little introduction.

I want you to open your minds this afternoon to

the truth of the Word of God.

It's a very difficult thing if you know something about the Bible, especially if you enjoy

studying theology, and you read commentaries, and you read theology books, and

you've heard other opinions, and you've formed your own opinions, and you know what your mama believed and your daddy believed.

It's very difficult the more of that that you do.

All those are good things, but they carry a danger as well, because it becomes more and more difficult

to be so honest in your approach to the Bible that you're willing to give up something that

you've believed for many years that was wrong.

Not that you have, but I'm saying would you be willing to?

That is very difficult, and I will honestly tell you that, and I figured out by the way, I found the plaque back there.

It was 1992 when I became pastor.

I found the little plaque Jack Pullen made, and it was in 97 and it said you've been pastor for

five years, so that's 92, so you were exactly right.

I became pastor the year we met.

I think it was about 92.

But most of that time, I was not willing to change anything I believed.

I'll say when I was a younger man, I had more black and white, and you would admire that probably.

Well, he doesn't waver.

This is what he believes.

Here it is.

I was more that way as a young man than I am now, because now there's one thing that

back when we were going through our study on systematic theology, which I do plan to pick that up again,

hopefully in the spring, but when we did the part on

honest Bible interpretation, remember that part where there were eight principles

of proper, honest Bible interpretation?

I've believed for some years, and I don't know exactly how many, I don't know when my heart and mind changed on this issue,

but I came to the place where I felt it was far more important to apply those eight principles than

to leave my theology in the box that I had wrapped it up so prettily in back in

the early 80s, late 70s and early 80s, when I first started studying theology and began to form my

theological background and basis, building blocks.

That's been the thrust of my study in my life is theology.

That's where my main interest has been.

I've read most of the books that I read have to do with doctrinal positions in theology.

Trying to rightly divide the word of truth, trying to put the whole picture together

where it all fits in the whole picture rather than take one little passage and expound on that, but

does this really fit the whole picture?

Is it a system?

Now I'll say this, we don't have a perfect system yet.

No theology school does.

The best one in my day was Dallas Theological Seminary, St. Louis MacArthur went to.

They have the best stuff that's out there, I think.

But there is no perfect system as you know, because even your own theology has changed.

Maybe even in one in the past year you can see some things that you believe that you see more clearly now than you

did.

So all that's changing.

Now what I want you to do this particular verse is going to launch us into a study that if

you're not willing to explore truth not that I'm saying we'll make any

conclusions today but if you're not willing to look at scripture as it is written and put

aside any philosophical trappings that you've had on a position,

then you won't learn anything.

Because what you'll do from the moment I begin, you'll close your mind and you won't listen.

So just don't do that.

It doesn't matter.

We're not trying to win an argument.

What we're trying to do is see what the truth of the scripture is.

Now let me give you a couple of verses that will warn us against the closed mindedness

of the Pharisee.

Now the Pharisee is the one who knows everything already.

He already has his doctrinal position.

It was taught to him by his fathers.

He learned it in, quote, seminary.

The Jews were always, you don't see in the Bible where it talks about seminary much, but Paul did say that he went to the school of

Gamaliel.

They were very studious and they did believe in seminary and so forth.

So the Pharisees had been schooled.

They had been trained by masters, by older men who were wise

and who knew more than they and once that happens to you, I don't believe there's anybody in our

congregation right now, other than possibly Brother Roy who's here in the mornings, who

has at a young age, say in your early 20s, sat under theological training.

But had you done that, you would find it for many years virtually impossible to learn something

new that didn't fit within the box that that particular school put you in.

It wouldn't matter which school, whichever one you went to, you'll have a box and you'll filter everything through it.

Well, all of us do that to a certain degree, whether we know it or not.

We've been taught things by Brother Rocky, we've been taught all the different ones of us have

had gurus that we loved and thought were so right on so many things and we've heard

them say catch phrases.

Brother Otis came up with one, another one this morning at Sunday school that we've said, you know, well if the Lord tarries, da -da -da

and it's not wrong to say that necessarily, but it's not real accurate.

It's not being real clear with your language.

I've said it a million times because I heard my other ones that came before me say it.

Well, we need to sometimes lay aside some of that and just look and see what the scripture says.

Do you have the ability to read a passage clearly without it being colored by what you

already think you believe?

Because if you don't, then you have the same mindset that the

Pharisees had when Jesus came.

It was devastating.

Now, Anna and

Simeon and some of these other Jewish people were open -minded and

when they saw Jesus, they changed their doctrinal trappings

and then some of the others could not do that.

Some of the ones that said, why do you heal on the Sabbath?

Why do your men go through the cornfield and pick the corn and eat it on the Sabbath?

How could you do that?

They could not get away from their traditional training.

Mark chapter 7 verse 2 says, and when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with

defiled, that is to say, unwashed hands, they found fault.

Now that tells you why they found fault because the Pharisees and all the Jews except

they wash their hands often, eat not, holding the

tradition of the elders.

Now catch that phrase and underline it.

Holding the tradition of the elders.

They had been taught these things by their theological teachers and they held them more

dearly than what God himself said in the life of

Jesus Christ.

They held their traditions.

They were not based on Bible, most of these traditions were based on just

the fact that it's the way it's been done.

It's the way we've always believed it.

They could not give a chapter and a verse and that's where Jesus would pick them apart.

He'd say, well you say this, but the scriptures say this.

And he did that again and again and they finally crucified him.

Now turn to Galatians one of these may not be right because I had these in my other

sheet of notes that I didn't grab a while ago when I went back there.

Let's try it.

I think it's Galatians 1 .14.

No, well you could that one's fine to read but it's not the one

I was looking for.

Let's try Colossians 2 .8.

I know Colossians 2 .8 is one of them.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men

after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.

Now there's another one I had that where it's later on going back towards the book of Revelation.

I don't even remember what chapter and verse it's in but it's a verse that says something about the vain traditions of your

fathers and I had several of those verses.

I want you to just think about that because I'm going to say this now let's go into our study today.

Go into 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 and verse 1

and follow me as I read this and then I'll make another comment and we'll get into this.

Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

and by our gathering together unto him that ye be not soon

shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from

us as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away

first and that man of sin be revealed the son of

perdition.

Now we could read and we will study through this either Brother Otis or myself will go verse by verse through it

but let's just stop there for a moment.

The common beliefs about the rapture of the church and the second coming

have been cataloged very well in a book called Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost who was a friend of Brother

Rocky's.

They traveled and preached together often in Canada and America and different parts of the

world sometimes in Europe and it's interesting to go through

and read the different beliefs.

Each group that believes their belief believes that they are

exclusively right and that all the other beliefs are wrong.

The pre -tribulation rapture, the post -tribulation, the amillennial

and on and on pre -trib, pre -wrath all the different things and Brother Russ talked about some of those in

his study.

But each group believes they are the one and only true right group.

Now that should tell us something.

That should tell us that at least over the past decade or two

and you won't find hardly anything written beyond that.

If you go back earlier than that you go back and read somebody like Matthew Henry they don't even talk about it because they had no light on it whatsoever

apparently.

It was a closed part of God's word for the most part.

They didn't even study it.

And you come into the 60's and 70's and it became just boom!

People became very interested in it.

Hal Lindsey wrote The Late Great Planet Earth.

One of the first books I read as a new Christian.

It just captivated me.

I loved it.

I still love it.

But Dwight Pentecost wrote his work probably in the 60's and

70's.

And most of these things now.

So very strong positions began to be held among Baptist and the Bible Church people

about the pre -tribulation rapture.

Now you know the scenario.

The scenario is something like this.

That when the Bible talks about the second coming that it kind

of generalizing and it is not being specific.

You first have to accept that premise to believe the pre -tribulation rapture.

You have to accept many premises.

You have to accept a philosophy because there is very little scripture to support it

whatsoever.

So you have to have philosophical underpinnings.

You have to believe God just wouldn't let us go through that.

That's philosophy.

That's not Bible.

That's philosophy.

Now when you believe that and you believe it long enough you then begin to filter every verse you read through that

philosophy which is exactly what the Pharisees did.

And it's very unfair to the scriptures.

I'm not saying today that the pre -tribulation rapture is not right.

I'm not prepared to say that.

But I am prepared to say that the more and more I go back and restudy it and

try my best not to filter it through the philosophy that I had been taught by my

elders the more I see that the scriptures do not plainly teach a pre -tribulation

rapture.

They don't plainly teach it.

I'm not saying it's not there.

But if it is there it is very subtle.

It is very allegorical.

It is not to the point and there are no verses that say it.

No.

Zero verses.

Now tell me any other major doctrine you believe in your life that has zero verses.

You may have one or two that has one verse or maybe two.

The things that we believe about the Trinity.

There's maybe only one or two key verses but at least we have those.

But on this issue the only way you come up with a scripture is if you filter it through that philosophy and you

read it and say well that's what this has to mean because that's what I believe.

And I want us just for a few moments this afternoon to not look at it that way.

And I'm not trying to convince on any position because I'm not settled on my position yet.

I'm being honest with you.

I am not I thought I was years ago but I wasn't honest because I hadn't personally studied it before.

I had only received what my elders had taught me as the truth.

I think we all owe it to the Lord and to ourselves to personally study something before we teach it dogmatically.

Now so I'm going to ask you this afternoon to just look at the Bible.

Look at the scriptures.

Look at them in context.

Apply the eight rules of Bible interpretation fairly to every verse you think you

have on the pre -tribulation rapture.

And go back and re -read and re -study them as I do.

This is such a verse and it leads us to what led me into this.

Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together

unto him.

Two very key words in that verse.

One is the word coming and the other is the word gathering.

There are two major actually three major concepts that will always be brought up when we speak of

the end times.

One is the rapture.

The second is called the second coming.

And the third we could call it the vengeance or you might call it the wrath of

God.

I want to at least put forth this premise this afternoon for you to think about.

Shoot it down and sink it if you can or believe it if you can't.

And the premise is this.

In the Bible most I won't say all the time because I don't pretend to say that

in studying for this little study this afternoon that I've read every verse in the Bible about this.

But I have read many this week.

So I'm just going to say most of the time in the Bible when you see

this subject taught you will often find the rapture or the gathering

together of his people, the coming the second coming and the wrath mentioned either in the same

verse or within the same context.

And when you read it in the language of the Bible it's talking about the same time period.

It doesn't put a period of time in between these things.

It just says this is an event that happens and here's what happens when this event happens.

Now to believe what's been we've been taught through the years we have to say well yes but there's a seven

year parenthesis in between that separates all these things.

I just want you to read these scriptures with me and see if you see a seven year parenthesis in them.

Just see if the Bible is written that way this afternoon.

So in this particular verse let's look at a couple of words and then we'll look at some other passages that deal with these

words.

Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ the word coming I

want you to underline that and I will say this too to preface this study.

It's interesting that the entire book of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians much of the books have

to do with preparing God's people the elect for tribulation and

to comfort their hearts in the midst of tribulation.

If you look at the overall picture of the books that's what much of it is speaking of.

Now this word coming where it says I beseech you by the coming of the Lord

the word coming is the Greek word parousia.

Parousia.

It is the word that is always used to speak of the advent of the Lord.

In fact it's translated into the word advent.

The literal meaning is being near.

It means the first and the second advent.

We talk about the first second advent.

The first coming and the second coming.

In our King James Bible it's always translated coming.

The coming of the Lord.

The second coming.

We talk of it theologically as the second coming.

I want you to notice that the key theological word that deals

with the second coming is parousia.

It's spelled P -A -R -O -U -S -I -A in our letters.

Parousia.

It means his coming and it deals with the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Now notice that it says we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by

our gathering together unto him.

Now this is in the same breath and the same sentence in my thesis this afternoon.

The only thesis I'm trying to put forth is that nearly every time you find them they're in the same breath.

They're not separated by events.

They are in the same breath.

The word gathering is the word episunagoge.

It's easier to spell than it is to say but it's E -P -I -S -U -N -A -G

-O -G -E E -P -I -S -U -N -A -G

-O -G -E E -P -I -S -U -N -A -G -O -G -E Episunagoge and it comes from a

smaller Greek word episunago.

This word means a complete collection.

Specifically Strong says a church meeting

for worship.

Assembling together or a gathering together of God's people in one place.

And it is the word that Jesus uses when he speaks of the rapture.

There is no place in the Bible where the word rapture is used.

The only theological Bible word we have for it is

Episunagoge.

The gathering.

Isn't that what the rapture is?

Haven't you pictured it before?

I know you have.

I mean I have.

I picture somewhere in some quadrant of the sky up here.

We go up and wherever we are.

Some of us may be off at work towards Athens and some of us up in Dallas.

Some of us, you know, back in my hair and over in Fairfield and there we are and all of a sudden this

event takes place and boom.

We're up in some quadrant and there's our little local church right there together in with the whole church.

And we'll see each other and we'll be looking at each other and saying, it happened.

It just happened.

The trials and tribulations and tears and sorrows and death itself is no more.

We're here together.

Haven't you pictured it?

It's a great de -great gathering of God's elect.

And this is the word that's used it means a complete collection or an assembling together.

The gathering.

So we see both of these words found in verse 1 and Paul is using it to

beseech the brethren by the coming and the gathering that you be not soon shaken

in mind.

Now if you go on and read the passage what you'll find is there was some false teaching in that day that

had taught that the rapture had already occurred.

And it was creating some real trouble theologically and doctrinally in the church and Paul was correcting this trouble.

When you go and you read what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about the last days.

One of the predominant things you'll find is he keeps coming back to this theme there will be many false teachers.

And the specific false doctrine that he mentions, not to say that there won't be many types of false doctrines

in all kinds of manner of corrupt teaching.

But the thing that he always specifically mentions is that they're teaching that the Lord is coming

in a way in which he is not coming.

If they say to you he's out here, he said don't listen.

Because he said when I come it'll be like the lightning from the east to the west.

He said if they say I'm over here don't listen.

When I come it will be to conquer.

Now it's interesting that he didn't say but prior years, seven years to that I'm going to appear

but I won't really appear I'll just be in the sky but no one will see me.

Find that.

Find it.

It's not there.

Everywhere where you see this mentioned about the coming you'll see the gathering and you'll see the wrath.

And you just keep reading it and the only thing that has kept us from seeing it is our philosophical

under trappings is my current theory.

And as I say I'm not settled on it but I am trying to study and to see what does the Bible say on these things?

Why is it important?

Is this doctrine?

Is it important just to be doctrinally so we have a position in our church and why don't we just keep the

traditional position we've always had and we won't have to worry about it?

Well, I'm a person who asks questions and thinks.

If I were Satan and I knew that the Bible really

taught that the church would be on the planet during the tribulation period not during

the battle of Armageddon and the full wrath of God but during part of what we've always called the seven

year period.

And I knew that and I knew that during that period that the Christians who were asleep, the ones who did not know

what the scriptures taught would be at great disadvantage and would be doing the

wrong things at the wrong times and be in the wrong places at the wrong time and would be killed

because of it.

Then wouldn't it benefit me to get a teaching out there that teaches well you won't be there anyway so don't worry about it.

That's logical.

Doesn't prove anything but it is logical that that's what he would like to do.

Jesus warned of teachers who would teach that he would come in a different way than the Bible teaches.

Paul warned about it and yet we so easily just believe what

we have always accepted without just looking at the plain scriptures.

It concerns me more than it ever has in my life.

I've never had an interest in this study before until this past year and of course

when September 11th happened it accelerated my interest.

Now let's look at some places in the Bible where we see this word Parousia and we

see the word Episounagogia and then we also can look in 1 Thessalonians, why don't you

go ahead and catch this third word.

Look at 1 Thessalonians 5 1 we just got through studying

that but I want you to see this concept of wrath with it.

1 Thessalonians 5 1 through 3

but of the times and the seasons brethren you have no need that I write to you

for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh now the day of the Lord is another key phrase

that has to do with the second coming so cometh as a thief in the night for when

they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh

you see how the day of the Lord or the second coming is tied in with the concept of

sudden destruction travail as upon a woman and they shall not escape.

Who's the they.

Well that's the world, the world system now

talking about the second coming

it comes upon them as a thief in the night because they're sleeping and the Bible

never teaches.

He tells us that as Christians it won't come upon us as unawares because we have the scriptures we can read and

study and know the signs.

That's what the signs are for but the world doesn't believe in them so the whole event comes upon them

by surprise whereas to the Christian it's not supposed to.

No this is talking about the second coming coming as a thief in the night not the rapture.

I understand where you're going with your question.

Let's go ahead and read through the scriptures and I think you'll be clear what you're going to find is that there's not a distinguishing time period

between the rapture and the second coming.

The whole event comes as a thief in the night but that's to the world not to the Christian.

Now it is to a carnal Christian and the Lord talks about it.

Jesus himself talks about it and he says but you don't have to be in the dark.

And then he gives the parable of the fig tree but he's telling his people don't be

taken by surprise don't be like the bad servant that's not ready when he comes.

That's all written to his people.

And we put it through our philosophical training to put that seven

year period between the two so that we say well this will be a

surprise to the world because it happens mysteriously up in the sky where they can't see it.

That's not what's being taught here.

This is being taught that the day of the Lord the second coming itself will come as a thief.

It's because right prior to it the lost world has no clue it's coming even though they've seen all

of these things happening.

They don't believe.

They don't accept them as signs.

But God's people do.

So it won't be as a thief for us but it will be for the world.

Now let me go on let's go to second Thessalonians one six.

There are a thousand questions you can ask that will come to mind.

What I want us to do is look at the scriptures and let's ask

some questions about our beliefs.

Let's ask questions the other way around some too.

Let's say well if it says it happens at the last trump why do we think it happens

before any of the trumpets.

Those questions are very hard questions to answer too.

And there are more hard questions.

I'll promise you I'm not an authority on the subject.

But if you put two men in this pulpit to debate this issue the one that would have the trouble

coming up with the proof would be the one trying to prove that a rapture happens seven years before the second coming

and that there are two different resurrections.

And all of these different questions you could ask about that subject it is very very difficult to defend.

I heard Dr. MacArthur's head of his seminary teach on this subject when we

went up there recently and Jesse he said this.

He said well I'm going to teach on the pre -tribulation rapture.

And he said I know all you brothers in the room don't believe in it.

And he said that's fine because there are many good men that believe different ways.

And he said I'm going to be honest with you I'm going to give you five points.

And he said no one of the points proves it.

He said I don't have a verse that proves it.

And he said no one of my points proves it.

But he said as we put each point together one upon the other it adds enough weight that I lean that direction

now.

That was his argument for it.

He didn't come up with one or two or five or ten bible verses that talk about it at all because there aren't any.

So when we talk about the thief and the knight I've heard it said that the

argument for the rapture happening seven years earlier is that.

Well if it happened at the second coming it wouldn't be a surprise.

Well it's not supposed to be a surprise to his people.

It's a surprise to the lost world and it will always be a surprise to them because they're asleep.

That's the only answer I can give you on that one second Thessalonians one verses six through

ten follow me here seeing

it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

and to you who are troubled rest with us.

You see how this is comforting Christians who are going through tribulation when the Lord

Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of

our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and

from the glory of his power.

Now what I want to do is show you that the second coming where it speaks of the second coming his

coming is tied together with his wrath on the unbelieving world.

Now we've always accepted that that's not anything new at all.

When we come into chapter two verse one and many other verses that we can look at we then see that the

second coming is tied together with the gathering.

Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto

him that ye be not soon shaken or troubled by people that are teaching that the rapture has

already occurred.

Now go to Matthew chapter 24.

I want you to see some of the places in the Bible where this word gathering is used

the gathering of the church.

And I want you to see the context that it's in

and I've always been taught and I believe that it's part of what we should do

that we ought to interpret the scripture literally unless the

scripture lets us know that it's allegorical and that'll be plain to see just

like much of the book of Revelation is otherwise.

Read it plainly.

Interpret scripture plainly like if you read a newspaper article you just read it for what

it is and you let it say to you what the author was saying.

I've always tried to take that approach reading the scriptures.

Now in Matthew chapter 24 starting with verse 21

it's interesting by the way this same word for gathering is found in Hebrews 10 25 and I won't

have time to get to it this afternoon.

But in the passage that Brother Otis taught in Sunday School this morning where it says not forsaking the

assembling of ourselves together this word assemble is this same word for gathering.

And there's an interesting teaching that I'd like to share with you sometime on the latter part

of that chapter right after Hebrews 10 25 the part where it seems to say well

don't forsake meeting in church.

And then it goes right into talking about the wrath of God.

I've always had a problem figuring out how does that fit the context of this verse that seems to be saying don't skip church.

Why would it go right in there and start talking about the wrath of God.

Well what happens is you read the passage and you understand that the word gathering has connotations

of the gathering and it is a fore taste of the gathering the great gathering in

the sky.

Then you read that passage of scripture in Hebrews chapter 10 you start to see the wrath of God that is going to

come on those who don't believe.

And it becomes more clear.

But in Matthew 24 let's find this place where Jesus uses this word

which means the gathering starting with verse 21.

For then shall be great tribulation such as was not seen since the beginning

of the world to this time nor no nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened there shall no flesh be

saved.

But for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.

Now for purposes of defining words when we go back into the Thessalonian

letters in 1st Thessalonians chapter 1 verse 4 Paul addressed

God's people this way.

Knowing brethren beloved your election of God.

He calls us the elect the elect bride.

And Jesus says except those days be shortened there should no flesh be saved.

But for the elects sake those days are shortened now just to set

aside our previous beliefs for a second wouldn't you

agree with me that if a rapture of the church took place at any point

previous to the battle of Armageddon it would be taking us out and shortening

that time for us.

From our perspective we would not be having to go through the entire thing.

In fact if if the battle of Armageddon is God's way of stopping the

total annihilation of the world and the killing of all flesh which is exactly what Jesus says would happen if he didn't cut

it short.

Then the appearance of Jesus when he appears at the second

coming this Parousia when he comes

that is in fact what stops this total annihilation and cuts it short from the human in

time point of view we don't think God you know cuts things short.

It was always planned to be a certain length.

But from our viewpoint it's as if he cuts it short before the whole world is destroyed.

He says he does that for the elects sake.

Now you can say well that's Jew elect that's just Jews that got saved.

Yes I know that's what we've been taught.

But as we read clearly in the scriptures Paul calls the church the

elect throughout the New Testament.

So there's no predominant prevailing reason for us to think that that doesn't include the church.

I'm not saying that we're proven that it does but there's no prevailing reason for us to think it doesn't

based on this scripture.

Now as we look at this then Jesus says these days will be shortened there shall no flesh be saved.

But for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.

I would ask who are the elect.

Can we prove that means Jews if it's true that the Holy

Spirit is removed from the earth as the previous theory that we've believed has taught that it's

removed before the tribulation comes which I don't believe is true.

But if that were true then would these saved Jews be saved in the same way that we are

by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and so forth.

None of that fits.

So there is a theological problem with that interpretation right in this area.

Now we go into verse 23.

Then if any man shall say unto you lo here is Christ or there believe it not.

Now there are many false teachers false prophets and so forth so much that

if possible even the very elect would be deceived.

So the elect are on the earth or they couldn't be deceived.

There has to be elect people here to be deceived.

And Jesus says these false teachers will be trying to predominantly teach them about a false rapture a false

second coming and they will be deceived now.

That's what the scripture says.

Is it totally impossible that that happened to us.

Is it totally out of the question that we've been deceived on what we believed about the

rapture occurring seven years before the second coming.

Let's read on.

See what Jesus says.

I think he should be a quite an authority on this subject far more than someone like

Hal Lindsay or or even Rocky Freeman my greatest mentor Jesus said this.

Wherefore if they shall say to you behold he's in the desert.

I've already kind of told you about this part.

Go not forth.

Behold.

And so forth for 27 he says for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even into the West

so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

That's how Jesus said his coming would be.

Now our philosophy teaches that his coming is that he comes first in secret and then comes later.

Jesus doesn't teach that the Bible teaches.

Jesus says there will be false teachers who teach different ways that I will come.

But I say when I come it will be like the lightning from the east to the west.

This is God's word on it.

So shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

For where so ever the carcass is there will the eagles be gathered together

immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Now I've got to stop here.

Let's see what the word says.

The word after in verse 29 is the Greek word meta.

The Greek word meta means amid or in the midst of.

It can be interpreted after but it really carries the connotation of

accompaniment happening alongside at the same time with something else.

So Jesus says immediately after or in the midst of or with or

accompanying the tribulation of those days shall the sun be

dark.

And we know these are all signs of the tribulation period.

The moon shall not give her light the stars.

He's very definitive on what he's talking about.

When these things happen in the midst of these things accompanying these things after the

tribulation of those days shall the sun be dark and the moon shall not give her light.

The stars shall fall from heaven.

The powers of the heaven shall be shaken.

And then now you might want to circle the word.

Then because it's in your bible it's not in Hal Lindsey's book.

Then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven.

If you want to speak of a mysterious appearing in the heavenlies this is it.

But I don't believe it ever was an invisible appearing in the heavenlies.

It's always spoken of as a thing where it's like lightning.

It's a powerful coming of the lord.

Where like you said Jesse how can you say it'd be a surprise.

Because it's going to be known.

Well it will be the moment he comes.

But it's too late.

Then because he's already come upon them as a thief and he's on them.

It says after the tribulation of those days.

Then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven.

Now circle the next word.

And what is the next word.

Everybody's excited about this teaching.

I can tell somebody tell me what does it say.

Then it says.

And then now go with me.

We're in verse 30.

And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven.

Now we've already we've had the tribulation.

We've had the darkening of the sun.

We've had the moon turning red.

And so forth the powers of heaven shaken.

Then after that the appearing of the sign of the son of man in heaven.

And then after that shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

And they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory.

That is the second coming.

Is it not.

But now look what it says in verse 31.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.

You know the verse anywhere where it says the rapture occurs with the sound of the last trump.

And they the angels shall gather.

Have you seen this word before

the great gathering.

They shall gather together his elect from the four winds from

one end of heaven to the other.

You go in and read the Luke passage.

It talks about from one end of earth and heaven.

So it's his elect everywhere.

It's the ones who have died and gone on.

My grandmother will be there.

She's gone on to be with the lord.

Your loved ones who have gone on to be the lord will actually come back with him when he comes

for those who are remaining now as we go on into this passage and we get to the place

back in first Thessalonians where it specifically speaks of the rapture.

If you read the words very carefully they fit perfectly in alignment with what Jesus said in chapter 24 which

should make sense.

I don't think the Bible should contradict itself ever.

Certainly not the very words of Jesus.

So we see then here a group of things happening

more at one time than has been taught by our theory which puts seven years in between them.

Here we have the tribulation occurring.

Then we see the sign of the son of man in heaven.

Then we see the son of man coming in the clouds.

And then we hear the trumpet and his angels shall sound the trumpet he'll send his

angels.

And then we see the gathering of the elect from the four winds from heaven from earth and

so forth.

All of this is written to his own people.

Jesus was talking to his own people when he gave this sermon in chapter 24.

He goes on in verse 32 through 37 Jesse and addresses your question that you ask at the first

of the class about how can it be as a thief.

He explains it very clearly in the parable of the fig tree there from 32 to 37.

And he ends it by saying.

So shall also the coming of the son of man be.

So we're talking about the second coming.

We're talking about the coming of the son of man.

We're talking also about the gathering of the church all in the same passage verse 38.

For as in the days that were before the flood there were eating and drinking marrying and giving in marriage

until the day that Noah entered into the ark and knew not until the flood came.

See that's like the thief in the night.

I mean here Noah was building an ark.

It's not like they didn't have signs.

They just were ignorant of them.

It's not like they can't see the sun turning dark and the moon red and all the quaking of the earth.

They could see Noah over there hammering on that boat.

But it still came upon them as a thief in the night because they weren't ready.

But guess who was ready.

Say.

Verse 40 says.

Then shall now.

Now let's take.

Let's take a look at this.

We're running out of time.

I don't want you to draw any conclusions on this thing anyway because we got a lot more verses to look at

that put the second coming and the gathering together in the same time period.

But I do want you to think of this.

This passage that we just finished.

Verse 39 says.

And knew not until the flood came and took them all away.

So shall also the coming of the son of man be.

Are we talking about the second coming.

Somebody answer me.

Because I want to know if you're with me.

Okay.

Look at verse 40.

Then shall two be in the field and one shall be taken and the other left.

Now is that what's that.

Is that the rapture.

That is the rapture every time you've ever read that in your life you said that's the rapture.

And you said to yourselves how does that fit with this thing.

I've been taught I'm not taught that it happens at the same time.

So there must be something I just don't understand because I'm not a theologian.

You thought that every time you ever read this.

Okay.

But in the Bible they happen at the same time period.

Then if you circle the word then in these passages we've looked at this go back

and just study that one word and honestly define what the word then means.

We don't want to be like our president Clinton.

We don't want to redefine words to fit our theories and our philosophies.

Well it just depends on what is means then means it happens after this other thing happened.

It's very clear.

So shall also the coming of the son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field.

When when he comes two shall be in the field.

One shall be taken the other left.

Two women shall be grinding in the mill.

The one shall be taken the other left.

Watch.

Therefore for you know not at what hour the Lord cometh.

You see he comes back to this thief in the night thing.

But it doesn't say that it has to happen seven years prior to keep it from happening.

Because Jesus describes it all happening at the same time and still says it'll be as a thief to those who aren't

ready but know this that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the

thief would come he would have watched would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

The lost will never be able to do that.

And most Christians who are carnal will not be able to do it.

But those who are in the word and study it for what it says can be

totally ready.

Verse 44.

Therefore be ye also ready for in such hour as you think not the son of man

cometh.

So you see it's the second coming that comes as a surprise not the rapture you've always been taught.

It's the rapture Jesus taught it's the second coming.

But to Jesus it was all one event.

It was not spoken of as different events.

Who then is faithful and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household

to give them meat in due season.

Blessed is the servant whom his Lord when he cometh shall find.

So doing so the servant is there when he comes.

Verily I say unto you that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

If you go into Mark chapter 13 and verse 19 it

talks about.

It's a parallel passage.

Verse 20 talks about the fact that except the Lord had shortened those days no flesh should be saved.

But for the elects say whom he hath chosen he hath

shortened the days.

Who are the chosen brother Otis teaches about them all the time.

We talk about it all the time.

Why is this so difficult for us.

Why is it difficult to accept just the possibility.

I'm not even going to say probability yet but the possibility that we've been wrong about something and that it

doesn't fit a clear interpretation an honest eight point

handling of the scriptures like we would on all the other doctrines that we love.

Look what he says.

Except they've been shortened no flesh should be saved.

But for the elects sake whom he hath chosen he hath shortened the days.

This is Mark chapter 13.

Verse 20.

Verse 21 says.

And then if any man shall say to you lo here is Christ or there is Christ believe him not.

If they teach different forms of the second coming or after don't believe him.

For false Christ false prophet shall arise and shall show signs and wonders to seduce if it were possible even

the elect.

But take heed behold I have foretold you all things.

But in those days after that tribulation.

What is that tribulation.

I mean it doesn't even just say tribulation.

It says that tribulation.

The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light.

And the stars of heaven shall fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the son of man coming in the clouds with great

power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels and shall gather.

Here's our word the gathering of the church to gather his elect from the four winds from the

uttermost part of the earth.

The other one said the heavens and the uttermost part of heaven.

Is this not the rapture of the saints.

If it's not you're going to have to convince me what it is.

Then that's all we have time for today.

I want you to do this.

If you let me give you some verses to jot down.

You can come up with some of your own of course.

But Matthew chapter 3 verses 11 through 12.

Very interesting discussion John the Baptist had about Jesus

said that when he would come he would do two things.

He would gather up the chaff and put them in bundles to burn them.

But he would also gather his wheat.

What is the gathering of the wheat picture.

That's the gathering of the church.

That's the rapture.

It happens at the same event.

You've always read about him taking the goats and the sheep separating them.

You've always known that's one event.

You always try to figure out.

Well how can that be if the other one happened seven years earlier.

Well it must be because the theologians understand that I'll study it someday.

The plain reading of the scripture does not support pre

-tribulation rapture.

The best I can tell at this point.

And I'm just talking about the verses that I've studied.

I'm not trying to say that.

There's a conclusion.

I'm just what I want you to do is take these same verses that I've studied.

Read them read them as they are written.

Start to ask yourself the question does this fit what I have been taught.

Put down Matthew 13 28 through 30 where he talks about gathering wheat into his barn.

The gathering of the church.

Put down Matthew 13 47 where he talks about the good fish and the bad fish

gathering both the bad and putting them in one place the good and putting them in another place.

Matthew 22 9 through 14.

Many are called but few are chosen.

They'll be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Some guests that were invited to the wedding.

He brings them in shuts the door.

And then the others knock and they can't get in and they're cast out into the outer darkness and so forth.

The story is told as one event.

It happens at the same time.

Matthew 25 32 through 34.

The gathering of the nations.

The sheep on the right hand the goats on the left.

Luke 13 17.

Luke 17 28 through 37.

John chapter 11 verse 50.

Revelation 16 16 speaks of the battle of Armageddon and shows how it is that

God not only gathers his elect but in verse 19 he gathers together the lost

to war against them.

These are the three events that are taking place.

And in the Bible they're spoken of as one thing happening this happens then this happens

then this happens second coming then the gathering and then the

wrath.

Now what the way it pictures it if you just read the biblical account of it is that when you

when you go into first Thessalonians chapter 13 verses chapter 4 verse 13 through 18 where

it's obviously the rapture is taught it teaches very

clearly and it is written as a comfort to those who are worried about their loved ones who've already died because they were already being

persecuted tribulation.

They were being killed.

They're being fed the lions and so forth and Paul is comforting them about their loved

ones who have been killed because of their belief.

And yet our philosophy teaches God won't let us go through that.

Well okay so for 2 ,000 years he did but us he won't.

You'd have to accept that if it's a strong enough philosophical point to prove the issue

then you would have to accept that the whole book of martyrs was wrong.

But God should have never let it happen because he let the elect be eaten by lions and so forth.

But that would never happen to us.

So we have built a philosophy that says it just won't happen because it's not right.

But we have historical evidence that it is something God allows from time to time in his purposes.

We also have plenty of scripture and evidences of times when God has saved his people from those things such as Daniel

and the three Hebrew children.

So he can certainly save you from wrath as well you can be in the midst of it and be saved from it.

And this whole idea that it's all negative and that if we're left here we go through that it's just you know it's just like

it's so bad it can't be true.

The fact is it's wonderful.

You can turn that just like the half glass of water is it half full or half empty.

If you turn that around if you bear out that the scriptures teach that we might be here

if God protects you through it like he did Noah in Christ as he went through

the terrible tribulation of the flood but he was in Christ the whole time protected.

That's just as glorious as if something where you went out of here and you weren't here it's probably

even more glorious.

But as you read 1st Thessalonians 4 13 through 18 where it talks about the rapture here's what you're going to find happens.

He comforts them about the ones who have already died.

And then verse 13 says that they are the ones who come back with him when he comes.

Remember how the verses say when he comes he comes with his saints.

You've been taught that because the saints went up seven years earlier so when he comes back they're with him.

But what verse 13 teaches is that he says but I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning them which are

asleep.

That means the ones that have already died that you sorrow not even as others which have no

hope for if you believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which

sleep that means the dead the people that have died the Christians that have already died.

The ones who sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That defines who it is that comes with him.

Now you go on and read and it says we who still remain when this event happens will not proceed.

Then it means we don't go up in the air before they come back.

It plainly defies this whole teaching.

It says we will not prevent them.

In the Greek it means proceed them.

We won't go before them.

They will come back with him these that he's comforting them because they've already died.

They've gone to be with the Lord.

He says don't worry.

When you see Jesus they're going to be with him.

In fact you won't proceed them.

Their bodies will raise up and be put back together reunited with the spirit that is with the Lord

they will be with him.

And then you'll go up.

So don't worry don't worry about your dead friends your loved ones because you're not even going to proceed them.

They're going to be fixed before you are.

If you read it that's that's the events.

That's the way it teaches it very very clearly.

Now I'll have to say this for some reason this

particular doctrine is very personal very emotional.

If you let it be I would suggest don't let it be.

I would suggest take the scriptures.

Read them plainly play like you've never been taught anything about this.

You never read a book by Hal Lindsay.

You never heard David Mitchell the last 20 years preach the Hal Lindsay stuff that I always believed.

I've taught it very clearly how all this happens.

So I'm aware the verses that are out there that are supposed to prove it.

You won't find one that speaks directly to it.

Just put all that teaching aside.

Read some of these scriptures.

We've got a lot more we didn't get to today and see if you think that the order of the events happen

like you've been taught now I'll suggest this if you still think that they do that is fine.

I mean you're in good company with the predominant Southern Baptists

Independent Baptist and Bible Church people.

There will be no hard feelings on any part.

But please don't have any.

If I don't choose to believe that way anymore because I may not when I finish this study I'm not going to conclude.

There will be a day when I'll tell you what I've come to believe when I finish the study right now I'm sharing

with you my ongoing study.

I am not finding that the words of Jesus support that

theory without changing them a little which I'm not comfortable with

at this point in my life.

I don't want to change the scriptures.

I don't think you do either.

So just read them.

Draw down a time.

Get you a piece of paper.

Draw a timeline.

Put the sequence of events on there as Jesus said they happen.

Go in there and look in 1 Thessalonians 4 13 -18 where Paul describes the rapture.

Put down the timeline that he puts.

Put it in there.

See if it doesn't match exactly what Jesus said.

And I think you're going to find man we got a whole new thing to do.

But it can't be bad.

If it's God can it.

Now what we want to make sure is that it's of God and I'm with you on that.

So if it is if it is something that we.