Chuck Smith/Calvary Chapel Comments

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning, and we are joined by the aged one

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The ancient one you're a lot older than I am aren't you I mean just just long much older than I am

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I still have my hair. Well, yeah, but it's a different color than used to be.

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Oh just in a few places Just in a few place here and a little bit of denial. I met with an old friend the other day and In fact, he's your age boy,

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I tell you what talk about the snow on the roof. Mm -hmm Yeah, he first thing he looked at me. He goes. Wow, that's not supposed to happen that way

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But you're not quite to the next really bad birthday, that's that does that next year

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That'll be next year next year. Okay, we need to make a note that next year. Oh, we we do something real special for While I can still hear us.

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I Mean I mean signing happy birthday isn't nearly as fun as the singing part. So anyway, but Awful glad to have you here today

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My old job before I came to work here for that. Mm -hmm

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They had a gal in the secretarial pool that had turned 50 and the all the gals pulled their money together to take her to lunch and So they had everybody in the company come out front and wait for this these women to come out

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And when we got out front, there was this great big hearse And they had they had taped black balloons all over All over the fence and everything and then when when they came out

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The driver gets out of the hearse and he's dressed as a mortician grim reaper It's like whoa

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That's hey, you know the secular world. Yeah. Yeah, I guess Don't do that.

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I was thinking about maybe ran over to Walmart and picking up some Geritol or something. Oh, thank you

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I think they still make Geritol. I don't think so. I don't know. They may I you haven't looked recently I you might want to think about starting

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Well, anyway, yeah, there we go. It's a special special day there

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Okay, anyway, but I've got a long ways to go till till I'm there so I'm Actually, it's gonna be here for I know

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Anyhow, eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one is the phone number and I am appreciative of the the notes that I have gotten

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I I obviously Touched a cord. I guess that's the term you should use.

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I obviously address something a lot of people Have wanted me to address.

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I don't even remember actually getting any email saying you really should do this But there are a lot of folks who have

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Gone through a lot Because of the fact that they came to know the

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Lord in a context of the non -denominational denomination and they are taught to trust the

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Word of God read the Word of God to have a high view of the Word of God and then they start doing that and they start living that out consistently and the results are inevitable and That is that they start seeing that the

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Word of God teaches certain things and when they start Talking about these things they run smack -dab into the role of tradition

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Yes tradition even in Non -denominational denominations and so when

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I went over the Chuck Smith Stewart and I got him

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Brian. I didn't put the names here on the screen in front of me Discussing Reformed issues and doing so in a very shallow way

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In a very simplistic way. I think that's what really bothered me about it I don't have problems with Arminians arguing their position the problem that we see over and over and over again is that instead of knowingly responding to the best the other side has to offer they knowingly limit themselves to the least the other side has to offer and Call that good enough and You know in certain

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What you see that in politics? You see people doing that in politics all the time, but this should not be an issue where we use the world's standards we're talking here about the very glory of God and salvation and so obviously

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I Really struck a chord with a lot of folks When when we address that particular issue and I wanted just once again.

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I did this very briefly, but this last Little statement that was made by I think it was the

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Brian of the group In that first clip that I play this it's just it's less than 30 seconds

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I played it last time, but I just wanted to add a little something to it Jesus said it right there. You know

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I've often said about Calvinism guys Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus because they leave

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Jesus at the equation They just take certain statements of Paul, and then of course and read their own

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Theology into it so there is it sounds to me like a little bit of hyper red letterism there

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There's also and you've you've Maybe you haven't but I certainly have and I think most people have had this experience you try to start addressing scriptural foundations for believing

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That God is sovereign in the matter of salvation, and what do you hear? Oh? That that's in Paul and And as Peter said there are things difficult to understand in Paul see why can't you just get it from Jesus?

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And I've told the story before but there we always have new listeners Many many moons ago back when

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I had lots of hair, too And was skinny After getting married. I've stayed that way for a while not forever, but stayed that way for a while and I Had I was invited to lunch with my wife who was working at as a secretary at this

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Christian I don't know if those investments thing or Financial planning thing

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I forget what the guy it did, but we all went to the same church And I was invited to lunch because not only was he not reformed, but he didn't even believe in the perseverance of the

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Saints and So we had lunch. It's over somewhere on 7th 7th

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Avenue as I recall and We got ready to start talking about the issue and So he said why do you believe in this eternal security thing?

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and So I said well, you know as as Paul said here in Ephesians chapter 1

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I was gonna read Ephesians 1 14 describes the Holy Spirit as the down payment and you know

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Start laying a foundation for viewing. This is God's work and things like that and he immediately stopped me and He said look, that's

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Paul. I Want to see it in the red letters if you can't find it in Jesus Then don't even bother showing it to me and I was like Okay, and of course

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I ended up going to John 6 at that point which makes sense, but That was the attitude.

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I And it really involves an implicit reduction of the inspired nature of a very large important part of Scripture and That's what

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I'm hearing there. I mean, it's absurd to say Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus I mean, we're the ones who are actually saying

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Jesus actually saves that he doesn't try to save he actually saves and He actually has the capacity that that is his in that union with the father

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It's the father's will that he lose none of those given to him and he actually can save all as he actually can do the

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Will of the Father that's Calvinism and that's not what's promoted by Chuck Smith and these leaders of Calvary Chapel, so to say that this is this is

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Christianity without Jesus is absurd on its face But it also seems to me to possibly throw some light on why it was that in about 1994 95 somewhere around there.

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I Listened to not the same people as Chuck Smith. But what was that? Was it Hawking?

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David Hawking got in with him for a while after he had some problems And I think Chuck Smith was gonna like take him under his wing and rehabilitate him and stuff like that Well, I'm next to certain

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I'd have to ask Algo to be absolutely certain because we all have to ask Algo to be absolutely certain of anything, but um,

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I Believe it was David Hawking. I know it's Chuck Smith and I'm 99 % sure it was it was David Hawking I listened to them doing this entire program

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About this tremendous book they had discovered and The scholarship was just incredible and man, we've been saying this for a long time, but now we've got the documentation you all need to read this book by this great scholar by a name of GA Ripplinger and The books called

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New Age Bible versions. They didn't have a clue that This was Gail Ripplinger because she kept that hidden, but they were

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Completely taken in by Ripplinger now, I'm sorry. I don't want to sound like the mean person.

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Everyone always assumes that I am But if you can be taken in by Ripplinger's book there is something really wrong with your discernment skills because this stuff is

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Like I've said many times New Age Bible versions has more errors per page on it than anything I've ever seen produced by the

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Watchtower Bible and Tract Society so It seems to go to the same thing a real lack of in -depth

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Analysis and does that is that connected to what we see in a Dave Hunt? Where knowledge of the original languages?

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Seminary training is put down Well, then how come Norm Geisler gets along real well in those those areas?

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Well, because when he talks about this particular subject He gives the exact same surface level responses that he learned back in Bible college or seminary someplace and has never

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Gone beyond that in the level of the responses that he offers, you know What I found and you've played it now,

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I think three times and I find so offensive in the ignorance of the statements that he made there is that number one as you've already pointed out

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John 6 is pivotal it is Foundational to the Calvinistic worldview and secondly you don't have a substitutionary atonement in any other system not really system one anyway, not a consistent one and and They would claim to hold to it

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But the point is Jesus is your substitute if you don't have Jesus You don't have the substitute and that is pivotal core to the

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Calvinistic system. He takes my place Well, it also likewise has a very twisted view of Paul as if Christ is not the very center of Paul's theology as well

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I mean on every level that was just one of the most inane statements ever seen I ever heard and I I would call upon whoever that was.

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I don't believe it was mr. Stewart So it must have been the Bryan fellow To retract it and apologize and say, you know what that was

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That was one of the dumbest things I've ever uttered on the air and we'd like to withdraw that that'd be a wonderful thing But I don't really think that they're probably listening to our webcast

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But I bet you someone's informed them that we've been talking about though. I think there are ears to the ground

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Going going on out there. So Anyhow, I do want to get back to the Geisler sermon that we have not dealt with for a number of weeks now

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It's been I know we were doing this back in June and it keeps getting interrupted and we're only 27 minutes into it

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I'd like to continue that we also have some phone calls, but I would like to mention just very briefly. I would love to be able to already have a link on the blog to say help us do this, but One of the difficulties in arranging some of the debates that we do is

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That there is a Western way of doing things and there is a non -western way of doing things in the

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West We are very time -oriented Respond quickly oriented schedule oriented and people that are not from the

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West aren't that way And so sometimes when you're trying to debate people that are not that way

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Getting responses and being able to nail things down is always last -minute Lord willing

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We will get confirmation. Hopefully as early as today that on November 7th,

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I Will be debating Imam Shamsi Ali once again in New York on Jesus in the

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Quran and the Bible now think with me for just a moment. That's an excellent topic That's an excellent topic because on this very program we have gone through every single ayah in the

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Quran that has the name Isa in it, which is a Improper word for the word Jesus, but that's the

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Quranic term And I have often said that it is simply impossible

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To love the Jesus of the Quran there isn't enough there to love There's there's no person there the

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Jesus of the Quran is not a person he's an argument and Remember years ago when we interviewed

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Peter on this program The man who was saved by simply reading

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The New Testament in his own language. He was born the border of Pakistan Afghanistan. You can imagine we know that area now very well

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Spending billions and billions of dollars in that area right now That's where he was born and he simply read

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What the New Testament taught about Jesus? He read about Jesus in the Gospels and that was enough to convert him and So we know that so many of the

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Muslims who would attend this debate or Would listen to this debate later on YouTube or by mp3 broadcast

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Have not heard about the Jesus of the Bible And so it's tremendous opportunity but I got to get there and We don't have as a regular part of our diminished budget due to the economy

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Flying money, and so we do have in the shopping cart in fact in the shopping cart We have a brand new commercial that Rich has been working on very hard for the

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Dan Barker debate Dan Barker debate one From the University of Illinois, you can go in now.

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Not only can you get the very very nicely done DVD that Rich has been working on for quite some time now

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You know for a long time You get stuff enough to make a ministry is that it's a it sort of comes in a plain brown wrapper

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Plain white wrapper. Well, the other ones are the other ones were tan. There was tan and white Tan was

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DVD and white was CD and they all had black letters very fancy black In other words we've sort of kept the the low rent look that we adopted back in the days when we first started creating a

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Cassette tapes and we we did them on a ghetto blaster as they were called back then which is probably very politically incorrect now

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But it was a one -to -one Wasn't it good? I think it went up to double speed didn't it?

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Yeah, I had a double speed double take a master stick it on one side stick the other and it would go twice It's so a c90 only took 45 minutes to make one copy.

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It was incredible high -end Technology and I had a setting on it to where you it went up to the end and then you had to flip them over I don't remember that part

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But I do remember exactly what the the thing looked like And it was given to us and then remember we didn't even buy cassette labels

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We used file folder as file folder labels off of a off of an NEC 9 pin dot matrix printer and one of the pins

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Okay, turn that microphone off, thank you. All right. So anyway, we've sort of kept that Low rent view for a while, but rich finally got sick and tired of that.

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And so he's been learning Photoshop and stuff like that and if you buy the new

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Dan Barker, this is the first Dan Barker debate We're still waiting to get the video from the second one

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You will you will see that it's it's it's gorgeous. It's very very nice -looking So there is even a nice commercial in the bookstore now

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You can go and watch it and and there's clips from the from the debate and all racism Oh, and by the way, one of the eight debates from 2008 that has been missing in action for all that time arrived yesterday

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The first one on the crucifixion with Osama Abdullah and we're supposed to have like three more coming soon

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And so hopefully eventually we'll get all those debates from 2008 put together as well.

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So anyhow Not sure how we got there. But in the shopping cart, you will also find two links one for domestic travel one for international travel

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And I need to get back to New York That's just all there is to it. And we need to cover those costs.

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There's a hotel and generally, I have to drive around myself, so there's a rental car and So we need your assistance to do that that'll be early

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November so we've only got a month we need to get those tickets as soon as possible and then February 20th 21st, that's the weekend.

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That's going to be the core of my visit to London and once again, we're going to be trying to do we want to do

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Revelation TV wanted to Justin Briarley's unbelievable radio program Which means we get out to tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people in that way

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I want to do at least two debates while I'm back there on the subject of Islam and The opportunity has come up and we haven't this is this is still in the discussion stage

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But the opportunity has come up that sort of on the way there There is a little place called

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Toronto, Canada And that's where Shabir Ali is and there's going to be a series of debates on Islam Right at the time

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I'm going to London but early enough that if I do some if I do one of the first in the series

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I'd be able to fly from here to Toronto Lord willing arranged debate with Shabir while I'm there and then fly from Toronto To London probably via one of US Airways hubs on the

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East Coast And sort of expand the things there, but again travel from here to the

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UK very very thankful that that was taken care of last time someone got me there and back again and a number of someone's and Looks like we're gonna need to put that on the blog once again and say

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Let's get rid of them for a couple weeks again Back off over there you recall that we did the the dividing line from over there and things like that, so that'll be in February but obviously

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Those types of tickets need to be purchased well beforehand as well to get the best prices so more opportunities there to do some wonderful wonderful things with large groups of Muslims and others and that's what's coming up But I I don't have a link up right now because we haven't gotten the

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November 7th absolute confirmation It'll probably be in the same place. We were at before which was very warm back in When we did it which was

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I think June as I recall But in November it shouldn't be warm at all it should be nice and nippy and cool in New York at least

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I hope so because I survive a debate a whole lot better if I'm not sweating all over myself in the process so That would be coming up in Early November, so I'll be praying toward those ends if you can help us to do those things that would be a great assistance as well

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All right before I get back to The Geisler thing let's go ahead and take some of our phone calls here.

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They've been waiting patient How do you wait patiently on the phone anyways? I mean? How would we be able to tell if they're impatient they would hang up?

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Oh, okay, also since they're still there, then they're not impatient So let's head back over and talk to our friend

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Joe in Dublin. Hello, Joe Hey, dr. White. How are you doing good?

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Good good first of all I would just say like like I said to rich bear and the screening might cause about church history and Calvinism in particular

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But just like to say in relation to your last couple of programs. I found them really fascinating because ironically it was a

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Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel booklet called Calvinism Arminianism and the word of God I believe a little small book that that got me

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Searching these issues initially and I found I read through the book at several times over had more questions

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I did answer at the end of it and the Lord was faithful to open my eyes to the doctrines of grace eventually and so I just just to support what you've been saying already, it's definitely true that the

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The The ministry of Calvary Chapel has been producing just like normal guys for many actual

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Bible reading Calvinist. Oh, yeah, so God uses all sorts of all sorts of means and I try to remember that whenever I feel frustrated by some of the things

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I'm experiencing and some of the argumentations being presented that I felt frustrated when chosen but free first came out and yet It's probably been one of the most helpful books in getting people to See the truth that has ever come out.

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So, you know, I God's in charge and he's going to be he's going to do exactly what he wants to accomplish.

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So I think that's great So anyway your question about church history yeah, the question is that Ironically the very same friend who gave me that booklet eventually who you'd be

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Anabaptist by conviction particularly Amish men in late he You know isn't convinced to the doctrines of grace open to this point.

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We've had many discussions on it and he Quotes a particular Anabaptist church historian by the name of David Bursow Who makes a bold claim that no church early church fathers prior to Augustine?

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Basically, you know supports the doctrines of grace in terms of like even you know

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Perseverance of the Saints for example or Predestination even tries to allude to it as a as only really a

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Gnostic belief prior to Augustine and I just wanted to get your time that maybe some early church fathers that I could well

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I could look into well as soon as soon as someone pulls the Gnostic card You you you can immediately

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Tell that they've they've gone beyond the the bounds the the idea that There is some type of Meaningful connection to Gnosticism in in reform theology is is well.

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It's not just slightly shy of absurd It is absurd so once you once you do that you've really shot your credibility but this is the same argument the

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Roman Catholics make in regards justification and Well, I want I want an early church father to dress this and believe this and so on so forth first and foremost even if there wasn't anything there the

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The only thing for the Bible -believing Protestant that is relevant is what is inspired not what did people afterwards think?

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About what has been inspired and it is amazing to me that people in light of the clarity of the biblical revelation

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Would be wandering around and all these unclear areas Trying to find light while shutting their eyes so blood so tightly to the light that is provided by Scripture These were not the issues of the early church fathers many the early church fathers like Justin Martyr came out of a

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Greek philosophical background and so they had a very strong commitment to certain elements that Distinguished them from that.

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I was just talking about Justin Martyr recently in regards Dan Barker And I pointed out that I never found a single citation in the extant writings of Justin Martyr That is unequivocally from Paul He seemed to have basically

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Matthew and Luke now. What would you have? It well upon what basis would you be able to?

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Preach overly clearly if all you had was Matthew and Luke now I could take it in Matthew 11 27, but let's face it without the the full revelation of Scripture at that point

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He's far more influenced by Greek philosophy than he is by the entirety of the Revelation found in the

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New Testament and When when you say prior to Augustine, what were the what were the great debates prior to Augustine was it this no it wasn't it was issues in regards to modalism and Arianism that was the the primary focus of of the of the church's

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Concerns at that time and so to ask for these types of things is to really from my perspective Abuse church history and abuse the early church fathers and say well

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They need to have been systematic theologians and they need to have been addressing these and and if you can't find I'm talking about this There's also all sorts of stuff that they were talking about that.

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We don't find to be overly interesting in our day And there's all sorts of things that they didn't talk about that We'd love to know more about but that just simply wasn't their issue.

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And so while we can Detect for example in some of the earliest materials and Clement of Rome for example

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Even though it's we don't know who wrote Clement of Rome and it's probably just the elders of the Church of Rome They would have had

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Romans 8 and 9 and so it's not overly surprising that we find discussions of the elect

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And God's grace in regards to the salvation of the elect apart from their works and things like that Coming from a church that received one of the epistles that most clearly presents that but why should

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I be? overly concerned about what say the epistle of Barnabas says

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When the epistle of Barnabas is clearly based upon a very sub biblical view of the New Testament revelation

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Why why should that be relevant to me? If you happen to place a tremendous amount of weight upon those things fine

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But it's very similar to what I listened to Steve Gregg saying many of the same things I think it probably drawing from the same sources saying all the early church fathers

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Believed in the free will of man and they didn't believe in the perseverance of Saints and so on and so forth Well, how much of the New Testament did they possess?

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Did they actually engage any of the texts that clearly teach these things the answer almost always is no

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So why did they hold those positions? Well, sometimes we can tell pure ignorance.

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Sometimes we can't didn't have an interest in it, but that kind of Abuse of church history where well,

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I'm gonna line up my citations over here and you line up your citations over there shows an extremely shallow understanding of Any type of meaningful approach to church history which is the same type of shallow approach that we see from Roman Catholics who try to turn your liturgy fathers in the

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Roman Catholics or you know a Anabaptist that tries to turn him into Anabaptist whatever else you have to look at each church father in their own

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Context and there are certain questions that simply cannot be answered because we don't have enough information

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Why didn't Justin living when he lived have access to more of Paul or if he did why didn't he?

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Rely upon it. We don't know That's just all there is to it and anyone who claims that they do well

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You better examine fairly closely why they make that type of claim. So It's it's a

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I think it's a it's a boomerang type of argument that Someone might try to make at that point that just simply does not treat church history in a fair way at all

29:50

Okay Thanks very much for the explanation on that. I mean just for the record. I mean

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I Don't from having conversations with my friend from the Anabaptist persuasion

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I Constantly try to reiterate to him in the conversations that I believe the doctrines of grace because they're not just implicit but explicit right throughout scripture and So yeah,

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I just found it a you know, very interesting at the same individually quotes David Burso It's also

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Unreasonably fair my estimation on how he even comments on Luther and Calvin particularly trying to make

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Calvin out like he was a You know a villain in the in the survey to the situation or you know as if he had more power than he actually did

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In Geneva and you've addressed it yourself before so I appreciate your your time to address those things.

30:41

Okay. Well, thanks Joe God bless take care. I got less. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

30:48

Let's talk with Actually, it's time to take a break real quick now we're gonna skip it you already turned it off, huh?

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Skip the break. That's that's what it says. Yeah Well fine, that's easy for you to do you're just sitting in there leaning forward, you know

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Lean on your elbows having a good old time, you know, you're not you're sipping on your coffee You don't have to worry about how much I'm talking in here

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So you can just you know decide to do these things and fine, you know, okay fine You know if I'm out of my if I can't even talk by the time this thing's over it doesn't really matter.

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It's okay No, I'm gonna go talk to Jose right now. Hi Jose in California. How are you?

31:23

All right, I bless you bro your Ministries being a real blessing on to my life.

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I've been in reform for about about two months Now I've been through your ministry and other means

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I've been on learning about Calvinism for the past ten years. Well Came from a

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Calvary Chapel background and got to assemblies of God right now and we got into a debate with the pastor and I saw like you talk about how the you talk about How they teach by I don't know

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Tradition brother it's called tradition. Yeah tradition, right and as I was sitting there in this class he was having a he's gonna have a debate on Calvinism and Since I've been studying

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Calvinism he started going off on Calvinism is a heresy and everything and then he started talking

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Just pointing the point of view of the Armenian way and I was like man, that's not what the Calvinist teach Because I'm being studying for the past couple months and we got in a debate.

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But my question is on On choice in the Old Testament, that's the but the only question

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I haven't really got answered On the Old Testament, like it says

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I'm choosing and I know in the New Testament The father draws them to himself and it gives him eternal life.

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But in the Old Testament, how how was choice? How did that work out? I still haven't had a clear answer on How did it work out in the

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Old Testament like when they chose life and choose this day for me going to serve? Well, well, well very often people will cite texts like that as if somehow the fact that The Old Testament and the

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New Testament the New Testament says the same thing It's you know today is day of salvation, etc etc as if the that general call means that there is no specific call or that that means that everyone is equally capable of Making the right decision and you just simply look at the

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Old Testament you go. Okay. Wait a minute Let me see if I understand what you're saying here because Joshua says choose you this day

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That means everybody has free will no one is a slave to sin. All right So why does

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God have to reserve for himself a remnant? why would in fact how could

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God reserve for himself a remnant if In point of fact what they're saying is true because to reserve a remnant would be to violate their free will wouldn't it?

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How would God reserve a remnant? Wouldn't it be as the remnant has to reserve itself? I mean,

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I mean, it's just it's just so obvious that both the Old and New Testament are saying the same thing There is a general command

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Christians are commanded to call all creatures all men men women and children to repent now

34:08

That's it. That's a given Nobody knows who the elect are so the call goes out to everyone

34:15

Repent and believe turn and believe that's the first message of the gospel. That's preached by Jesus And that is the message of the prophets to the people of Israel as well and to anyone in fact

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Who would hear the message of the one true God of of Israel was to repent of their ways?

34:33

Turn and live that's that's always the only message we can deliver because we don't limit our proclamation

34:40

To the elect because we don't know who the elect are that those those are separate issues And so there isn't any difference between the two you proclaim the gospel

34:47

You call all men to to repent and to believe and yet at the same time in the

34:52

Old Testament God hardens the heart of Pharaoh. He hardens the heart of entire nations.

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They might be destroyed by the Israelites He hardens the Israelites heart so they might be destroyed themselves

35:04

You have all this stuff where God is clearly acting in such a way that he's not overly concerned about this quote -unquote

35:12

Libertarian free will the point being that the only people who are going to choose are

35:18

Those who have been the recipients of God's grace That's why they're called the remnant back then or that's why

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Paul in a New Testament can say endure all things the sake of the elect We can sort of see in hindsight who they were but we can't see

35:31

In in the present situation we you know the elect don't glow green and so we proclaim the gospel to everyone so certainly

35:39

Everyone makes a choice The the Reformed position is not and this is what? Assemblies of God Calvary Chapel they all say the same thing you

35:47

Calvinist don't think we have a will no we most certainly do Men always respond to the gospel, but outside of grace.

35:53

It's always in a negative way That's what Paul said in Romans chapter 8 when he says those who are according the flesh

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Can not submit themselves to the law of God They don't have the capacity because they're slaves of sin or as Jesus said in John chapter 8

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Why don't you hear what I'm saying because you don't belong to God not the other way around it Why don't you bungle because you didn't choose to know you can't even hear what

36:17

I'm saying because you don't belong to God and So when we talk about people exercising choice of course they exercise choice

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But until the Spirit of God brings freedom to exercise the right choice

36:31

That choice is always going to be negative now. It's not always gonna be the same kind of choice There are

36:36

I mean look at our world today. There's all sorts of folks who choose to rebel against God Religiously that is they embrace false religions it helps to assuage their conscience or whatever

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But then there are others who rebel against God in a secular atheistic fashion But they're all negative

36:53

Responses to God's command to repent and to believe and so they all made a choice

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They look differently, but they're all united in one thing they're in rebellion against God It is until God removes that slavery to sin when he does that then you have

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The work of God in that person's life and and the choice to follow Christ and to repent of sin and so on so forth

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But that is dependent upon God freeing them from that slavery to sin that is theirs and so There's no difference between the

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Old and New Testament at that point God's Spirit was needed then God's Spirit is needed now

37:34

Man has been the slave of sin since Adam fell and and in the assemblies of God There's a lot of people who openly deny the doctrine of original sin.

37:43

They do not believe that our nature Was impacted by the fall of Adam which would mean they'd have a real problem with Romans chapter 5 so That may be behind a lot of what you're hearing

37:56

Okay, so it's the same drawing of the Father on the Old Testament You bet spirit of God has been required to open the hearts and minds of any sinner any rebel sinner

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From the time that Adam and Eve partook of that fruit that is that has been the only way

38:14

That that anyone has ever been saved. It's it's not a matter of well in the Old Testament They had libertarian free will and some people got it right and then in the

38:21

New Testament you have to have this This sovereignty of God or something like that. No The the the way of salvation by faith requiring the

38:30

Spirit of God's work in their heart is very clearly The way it always is otherwise the

38:36

Old Testament Saints would be able to boast over New Testament Saints that they were able to do Good things the New Testament Saints couldn't do without the work of the

38:43

Spirit of God, which makes absolutely no sense either. So You bet man's choice will always be against God unless God by his grace

38:52

Changes that heart. Oh Can I ask another question? Yeah real quickly Cuz I heard it talk about a comp compact

39:01

Compatibilism. Yeah, how does that work or I mean, how do I don't I haven't completely understood it well very quickly, it's it's just simply the assertion that the

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Bible plainly teaches that the sovereign decree of God and the

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Judgment of man and man's will are compatible with one another when you when you look at the key text in Genesis chapter 50

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Isaiah chapter 10 Acts chapter 4 where very clearly you have the sovereign decree of God being worked out and I in Genesis 50

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It's in the selling of Joseph into slavery in Isaiah chapter 10 It's in bringing a Syria against Israel to destroy

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Israel as judgment in Acts chapter 4 It is in Herod Pontius Pilate the

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Jews the Romans gathering together to crucify Jesus in each one We are told that God's sovereign purpose was involved in bringing these events about now in each one

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There was sin involved. It was sinful for Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery it was sinful for the

40:01

Assyrians to rape and murder and pillage and it was sinful for Herod and Pontius Pilate to deliver the the sinless

40:07

Son of God over to be crucified in each one there was sin and in each one the people could be rightly judged for the sins that they committed because they followed the desires of Their heart and yet we are told in each one

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God was accomplishing his sovereign purpose and so there is a compatibilism between that sovereign decree and The actions of men

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God has sufficient ground to hold men accountable for acting out on the desires of their heart

40:34

He did not have to force any of those people to be bad He did not have to force

40:39

Herod to be the nut that Herod was he did not have to force the Jewish leaders to have The hatred that they had for Jesus in fact in almost every single situation in every single

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Situation God was actively involved in restraining them from doing worse evil

40:54

He kept Joseph's brothers from killing him. He kept the Assyrians from completely wiping out the remnant

40:59

He he kept the people from killing Jesus until it was the exact right time for the sacrifice to take place

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So in each one God's actually restraining the evil of men But he is still just and righteous to judge them for acting out upon the desires of their hearts and so that is in in a in a very brief form what compatibilism is that it is that God's decree and Man's freedom are compatible in the sense that man is judged for acting upon the desires of his heart.

41:30

Okay. All right Thank you, brother. Thanks Jose All right, let's get one more we might be able to get a little

41:36

Geisler in here depending let's talk with Gary hi Gary Hey, am

41:42

I on? Yes, sir. Oh Right. I'm talking to James White. Yes, sir

41:49

Just let you know I loved your book on justification that's a really good read

41:56

My question is as a Calvinist There has been an argument that's recently caught my eye against the preservation of the

42:06

Saints. Mm -hmm And I've seen them use in Matthew chapter 18

42:14

That parable with the servant that got forgiven from the master which starts on verse 24 and ends through the end of the chapter 35

42:24

And I'll use this argument where the servant goes to the master says he can't forgive

42:30

He can't pay the master forgives him. Then that servant goes to his fellow servant and asked for his payment the fellow servant can't so he treats him cruelly and Then the master finds out and makes him pay for that And I've seen them uses the scissors.

42:51

They see if you're not forgiving God will put all your sins back on the books and call you accountable again

42:57

Yeah, that's exactly what Paul taught in Romans and that's exactly what justification means and that takes into the cross the cross into account

43:03

Yeah, very common for people who have no concern for the systematic teaching of the

43:09

New Testament Who are willing to isolate texts from one another and just come up with?

43:16

Well, here's a parable and the point of the parable is that we as believers are to be forgiven for forgiving people because we ourselves

43:23

Are forgiven and what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna throw everything the New Testament says out about how we're made right before God How we stand before God the the imputed righteousness of Christ I'm gonna ignore all of that on the basis of a parable and I'm gonna read this rather than being what it is

43:38

And that is saying that we as believers are being exhorted to being forgiving people based upon recognizing how much we ourselves have been forgiven and what

43:48

I'm gonna do is I'm actually gonna seriously suggest that what Jesus was saying is Absolute sinless perfection of forgiveness is required for salvation because that's what it would require

43:58

I mean you would have to be sinlessly perfect if you kept the slightest grudge if you if you remembered even at the single bit of Offense against someone else you're going straight on a bobsled to hell because you would have to have

44:15

Absolutely perfect forgiveness and there is not a single person on the planet other than Jesus Christ Whoever did that and so if that's the standard, well, we're all lost now.

44:24

Is that what Jesus was teaching? Of course not but people Again for all sorts of reasons that that we don't have time to get into right now

44:35

Distort the message of Jesus and they distort the message in the New Testament and they'll take one part and they'll ignore the chapters in a row that discuss the subject and come up with this kind of thing and It again goes back to the difference between reading the

44:51

Bible Prescriptively or descriptively that is this is this a description of what the truly saved are going to be like or is this a?

44:59

Prescription of how one becomes saved Jesus didn't present it that way. I did not present it as this well, here's here's how you become saved is is you demonstrate perfection of Perfection of forgiveness that's just simply not how he presented it.

45:13

So I don't find that to be an overly Convincing argument because it just simply ignores the reality of the entirety of the

45:21

New Testament and the purpose of the parable initially and sets up a requirement that Is unworkable, so that's how

45:30

I would respond to somebody on that Okay. All right. All right. Okay. Thanks Gary.

45:36

Thanks for calling. All right All right. Let's jump into a little Geisler here right toward the end last 15 minutes

45:42

We are 27 minutes and 35 seconds into the sermon why he is not a five -point Calvinist We've been it's been a number of weeks since we dealt with it, but I want to get back to it because in many ways

45:53

I think sometimes when we we listen to the Chuck Smith clip I think one of the reasons that people like Chuck Smith and Dave Hunt and others feel the way they do and feel a willingness

46:03

To attack reform theology in a very shallow way is because in the back of their mind I can always say well, hey, you know smart guy like Norman Geisler says it so it must be true and The problem is

46:13

Norm Geisler doesn't interact with reform theology in any meaningful fashion as we documented many years ago

46:19

In a book called the potter's freedom, but we like to do it so that you can hear these things as well

46:24

So we continue with his sermon Why he's not a five -point Calvinist that we didn't receive the gift that he gave once in a while the

46:35

Extreme Calvinist will say well then who gets credit for salvation If it's depending on your receiving it then you get credit for receiving it what the actual argument that we make of course is that if God is trying to save every person equally and There is this 100 % effort with everybody, but it's all up to you

47:00

Then you are the deciding factor as to whether you're going to be saved or not

47:05

If God tries to save two people absolutely equally one is saved and one is not and you can say oh

47:13

But neither one could have been saved if God had not tried to save them exactly but God tried to save them both exactly the same amount and So if his

47:23

God's purpose and intention was to save both But he only saves one

47:30

What was the deciding factor? The deciding factor was something in the one person who was saved that one person was somehow what?

47:41

better more sensitive smarter more more spiritual something

47:49

There has to be an answer the question why you and not someone else if the effort of God has been equal in both

47:57

Which is the necessary assertion of the Arminian and Norman Geisler is

48:03

Presenting that synergistic Arminianism over against monergistic reform theology.

48:09

It's kind of strange. That's like saying somebody gave you ten million dollars and You get credit because you took the gift

48:19

Now I would think that the person who gave the gift should get credit for the gift, right?

48:25

But what if someone tries to give ten million dollars to two people and that the only way that someone's going to live is if they get the ten million dollars to pay for a

48:41

An operation and the one doesn't take it and the one does Where then is the difference between the two is it in the action of the one giving no because it was equal

48:53

It is in the reception the one who Receives it. See that's

48:59

Geisler just doesn't you know, we've already heard before this Missing the meaning of total depravity the will of man all the standard

49:07

Constant errors. It should not be a part of representation of a sound theologian

49:12

But so often is and by the way, we should note very often as we've listened to William Lane Craig Even though they would agree on many of these things at least when

49:21

Craig presents the reform perspective He tries to say now reform theologians are not saying this

49:26

But that's one of the major differences between himself and Norman Geisler is a Geisler. This doesn't even go there

49:32

I mean is as much as as Craig's theology is very sub -biblical on these issues

49:38

He does when he makes representation not always and not perfectly, but he tries

49:46

To represent what the reform folks are saying in at least somewhat of an understandable and fair fashion the person who received it was just Impoverished he was

49:57

Incapable of making that in capable of attaining that he was only capable of receiving it

50:04

So we bless the giver For the gift not the receiver The receiver is the beggar who takes the handout from God saying

50:14

I am poor I am impoverished in myself, and I am dependent on God's grace.

50:20

Thank you for this gracious gift of salvation Even though that is then offered to every person who will be in hell as well

50:30

It was God's intention to save them too, but he failed in accomplishing that intention because The ultimate decision is not

50:39

God's it is man's that is Synergism not the receiver the receiver is the beggar who takes the handout from God saying

50:48

I am poor I am impoverished and yeah, we just heard this, but that's because these were done on YouTube videos, and we're broken up and obviously

50:57

When you threw all the audio together it repeated myself, and I am dependent on God's grace.

51:02

Thank you for this gracious gift of salvation So T total depravity is

51:10

Misunderstood by the five -point Calvinist you Unconditional election is understood because it is unconditional from the standpoint of the

51:21

Giver, but it is not unconditional from the standpoint of the receiver. This is where I really think

51:29

I Believe that norm really thinks this is a great insight But remember we had a caller a little while ago who said who pointed out that reading chosen but free is what made him a

51:38

Calvinist because it was incoherent and Dr.. Geisler just refuses to accept because no one younger than him can teach him anything that this particular

51:50

Way of handling the subject doesn't work It simply doesn't work

51:57

And I'll tell you why It has he's having to redefine the terms

52:03

And as this is something that we've we've complained about from the time that chosen but free came out Unconditional election means that in God's free grace

52:14

He elects people without Fulfillment of condition without foreseen fulfillment of condition on their part.

52:22

That's what the term historically has meant well Dr.. Geisler for some reason thinks that he can redefine all those things and so the

52:30

Well here. He'll probably explain it right here. You must accept it or you will be lost

52:37

Let's turn to one of the most important ones now in the acrostic tulip, and that's

52:43

L Now that wasn't even long enough to even begin to start tonight. I thought he'd actually

52:49

Define it, but he didn't the Argument that he presents is that it is unconditionally given

52:59

Sort of the peanut butter election by God But the condition on the part of the person receiving it is faith well, that's a complete redefinition of what the historical discussion has been about and So by redefining it a person who is actually doing serious study

53:15

Reading this book cannot help if they've read other books to go either Everyone else who's ever written on the subject for a couple hundred years since the

53:24

Reformation if you want to limit to that has been missing the point and only Norm Geisler got it or Norm Geisler Thinks that he has the right to redefine

53:38

The entirety of the discussion which makes absolutely positively no sense whatsoever limited atonement

53:48

Limited atonement very simply put is this Christ Did not die for and pay the penalty for the sins of all mankind

54:02

Christ died only for some people called the elect Wow, talk about trying to find the worst possible way you can present it.

54:17

I Harmony in the Godhead There is harmony in God's purpose and that the sacrifice of Christ is perfect and actually saves

54:27

See Norm Geisler says Christ didn't save anybody at the cross. He made all men savable But you wouldn't get that from what he just said.

54:34

They rarely want to actually positively discuss their own theology and Especially their own doctrine of atonement but to take that beautiful truth that there is harmony between the

54:45

Father the Son the Spirit in The doctrine of salvation and that the

54:50

Sacrifice of Christ is perfect in of itself To turn that into well the doctrine of limited atonement is that Jesus did not die before The sins of all of mankind, but only for a group called the elect.

55:05

I Mean you're really playing on hoping that your your audience Isn't saying they're going

55:11

But the term elect appears a number of times in the Bible It's you have the remnant in the

55:17

Old Testament You have the elect in the New Testament Paul endures all things the sake of the elect he addresses the elect and hmm

55:25

You're really hoping that they have a very surface level knowledge because your rhetoric is not going to Impact them if they actually

55:34

Know the subject at all those who will be saved those whom God chose from the foundation of the world

55:41

In fact the doctrine of limited atonement is held by the traditional five -point

55:46

Calvinist And that the reason I call them extreme is because John Calvin himself did not hold this view now again,

55:55

I've challenged a Geisler on this and He's just simply going on the basis

56:01

And I Hesitate to be As firm as I need to be here, but the fact the matter is that Dr.

56:11

Geisler is going on the basis of secondary sources here And there are people who argue the issue of Calvin's view of the atonement you can find

56:20

Quotations that go both directions It was the issue of the extent of the atonement as it became

56:27

Defined in later generations was not one of his primary issues or even a secondary issue

56:33

And so you can argue both directions, and I argued against his position in the

56:40

Potter's freedom but to go to the point that he goes to of a

56:47

Christ death saves no one it only makes everybody's savable perspective is to go far far away from Calvin and So that's why his moderate

56:58

Calvinism is just complete misnomer It's not a Calvinism of any of any sort no form of rank synergism as Norman Geisler promotes could be called

57:11

Calvinistic in any sense That's just again another place where the language has been abused

57:18

Look at our book chosen, but free There's a whole appendix in the book of quotes from Calvin where he said

57:24

Christ died for the sins of all mankind Repeatedly over and over so if you're more extreme than John Calvin I would assume you should be called an extreme

57:34

Calvinist right the moderate view is this For God so loved the world

57:43

Jesus died for the whole world now just to show you how That no notice no exegesis offered just just throw out

57:53

John 316 and all will be well Don't deal with any of the places where Calvin limited the concept of atonement as he most plainly did just throw it out there like that and Everyone will agree with what you have to say because well you are of course

58:11

Norman Geisler well, we didn't get very far I think we got three three minute a little over three minutes

58:18

Sermon, maybe we'll get it done by the end of the year who knows Not feeling any particular pressure, but we'll we'll pick it up on Thursday Lord willing.

58:27

We'll see you then Thanks for listening to the buying line God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602

59:40

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