September 4, 2018 Show with Carol Hansen on “Reorganized Latter Day Saint Church: Is It Christian?”

2 views

September 5, 2018

September 4, 2018: CAROL HANSEN, a former Reorganized Latter-day Saint who converted, by God’s grace, to Biblical Christianity & is an author with Refiner’s Fire Ministries, who will address: “REORGANIZED LATTER DAY SAINT CHURCH: IS IT CHRISTIAN?” with special co-host Dr. Latayne C Scott

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,
01:04: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:14: This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of September 2018.
01:23: I hope you all had a wonderfully blessed Labor Day weekend, that you are refreshed, that you are revitalized, that you were fed spiritually during your worship services on Sunday, and we just are blessed to be back here with a live program again on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:45: That is, it's live if you're listening on September 4th because I'm certain that eventually this will be a rerun, but it's a great to have a live program today.
01:54: By the way, I want to let you know, for all of you who have been reading about the new statement that was just released today, the new statement on social justice and the gospel that was drafted by a number of my theologically reformed brethren, we are going to be doing a program on that tomorrow with Dr.
02:17: Tom Askell, who is the executive director of Founders Ministries and also the pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.
02:25: A dear friend of mine who's been a guest on this program many times. He is going to be on tomorrow addressing the new statement on social justice and the gospel, so make sure you mark your calendars for tomorrow.
02:37: But today, I have for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Carol Hansen. She is a former reorganized
02:45: Latter -day Saint who converted by God's grace to biblical Christianity and is an author with Refiners Fire Ministries, a ministry founded by a recent guest of mine,
02:57: Paul Trask, also a former reorganized Latter -day Saint. And today we are addressing
03:03: Carol Hansen's book, Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is It Christian?
03:08: A Biblical and Historical Perspective of the RLDS Community of Christ Church.
03:14: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Carol Hansen. Thank you.
03:24: It's great to have you, Carol, and also co -hosting the program with me again is my friend
03:30: Dr. Latane C. Scott. Latane is a former Latter -day
03:36: Saint, not a member of the RLDS, but she's a former member of the LDS, and she attended
03:41: Brigham Young University, and she became a Christian also by the sovereign grace of God and his mercy and his blood.
03:50: And she is an author. She is actually not only the author of a number of books, but specifically a classic work on Mormonism called
03:59: The Mormon Mirage. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back as my co -host today,
04:05: Dr. Latane C. Scott. Greetings from New Mexico. Great.
04:11: And Latane, before we move on to Carol's testimony and learning more about her,
04:16: I understand that you have a couple of new books in the works or already published that our audience should know about?
04:25: Well, I think your audience who has heard me speak about Priscilla would like to know that I got a silver medal in the
04:33: Reader's Favorite International Book Contest this weekend for A Conspiracy of Breath.
04:39: Yes. God is blessing that book, and I have a new book with Christopher and Press, which is
04:45: Tim Challies and et al., which is a book, a young adult novel about, that's kind of a time travel.
04:56: And then Lynn Wilder and I are working on a new book to address the issues of people who have come out of Mormonism and need to reformulate their worldview.
05:07: And the book is written for Christians to help people who are leaving Latter -day Saint as well as RLDS. I think it would work for both.
05:14: And so I'm greatly blessed in my writing ministry. Great. Well, if anybody wants more information about Latane C.
05:20: Scott, you can go to her website latane .com. That's L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com.
05:28: Well, Carol, I know that you are a former reorganized Latter -day Saint, as I announced in the beginning of our program.
05:36: Tell us about your background, about the religion you were raised in, if any, and what providential circumstances our
05:45: Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and eventually saved you. Well, I was born in Independence, Missouri, which is the headquarters of the reorganized church, and I was born into a very loving family of nine.
06:06: There were nine of us, and all of us grew up in the church, my mom and dad and all seven kids, and I loved it with all my heart.
06:16: You're talking about the RLDS church you were raised in. I was raised in the RLDS, we were all raised in the
06:22: RLDS church here in Independence, and we were always so proud to say that it was the world headquarters of our church where Jesus was going to return when he came back to earth.
06:33: So we grew up with this mindset that we had something special that no other
06:40: Christians ever had, because we were the ones with more light and truth than anyone else, and Jesus would come to our city when he returned again.
06:52: So we grew up with that, and I had a wonderful childhood. We just had so much fun with all of our family growing up together, and we would go to church every
07:03: Sunday morning, but I didn't really take an interest in it so much until I went, after graduating from high school,
07:12: I went to our church college, Graceland College in Lamona, Iowa, and it was at Graceland that I started getting interested in what the teachings of the church were, and when
07:25: I graduated from Graceland, it was back in 1946, I graduated from Graceland, and I just had this burden to just share with the world about Joseph Smith.
07:39: I believed everything he taught. I loved him. The church was my life, and I felt sorry for everyone in the world that wasn't
07:49: RLDS at that time, and so that went, we,
07:55: I did every kind of work there was to do. We had a Zion's League youth meetings.
08:01: We had our reunions in the summertime, retreats for our youth. They really take care of their youth in the church, and we just had just a wonderful time growing up with all of the young people here in Independence, and so I was in it probably about, well, until I was about 56 years old, actually, when we started having a
08:29: Book of Mormon class, and our teacher was actually a Seventy in the church, which is a missionary in the church, and he challenged us to read a book called
08:41: Nauvoo Kingdom on the Mississippi, and I had gone to Graceland, the college, with the man that wrote the book, but he said that there was a chapter in the book that talked about the
08:53: Nauvoo period where Joseph Smith got into polygamy and started polygamy, and I said, no,
09:00: I said, I don't want to read anything that's against Joseph Smith because I know it won't be right, and I just want my thoughts to be on what the church is good for and what we're doing and building our kingdom here on earth, and but he finally said, he told me, he said, if you really want the truth, you won't be afraid to read another person's opinion, so I took him up on the challenge, and I got the book and started reading it, and it just broke my heart when
09:36: I started reading these things about Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, and so I kept closing the book.
09:42: I didn't want to finish it, and then I find myself opening it again and reading a little bit more, and that went on for several weeks.
09:51: Finally, I just decided I was going to read the part about Nauvoo to see what really went on there, because we had always been told, all of our family and the ones
10:03: I grew up with, that it was a lie that Joseph Smith ever practiced, believe me, that they just made up this story to make him look bad, and I believed that, and but when
10:14: I started reading the book and read the references and really got deep into church history,
10:22: I started changing my mind, and I started going to the world headquarters up here, to the historian's office, and I asked for all the information they could give me on Joseph Smith and the
10:35: Nauvoo period, and so I would sit up there for hours reading that and crying half of the time, because I couldn't believe that Joseph Smith had ever done anything wrong, but the more
10:49: I read and the more I studied the history of Nauvoo, the more
10:55: I knew that what they were writing was true, and I thought, well, if Joseph Smith got into that in Nauvoo, that doesn't mean he was a false prophet, and so then
11:07: I started studying church history from the Nauvoo period in 1840, from 1840 to 1844, and I started backing up in our church history, clear to the beginning of it, and I started reading about his first vision where he met
11:25: God and Jesus in the grove, and said he was going to bring forth the only true church, and the more
11:35: I read and the more I studied, each one of these parts of church history started falling apart, and my eyes just began to open to the fact that he was just a false prophet, and I didn't know what to do.
11:55: At first I tried to reject all the truth that I was finding, and I thought,
12:00: I can't keep doing this. I've got to know the truth, and so I prayed one day.
12:08: I fasted and prayed, and I asked the Lord to show me if these things were true that I was reading about Joseph Smith, to please let me know, and I felt the
12:23: Lord was saying, yes, they're true, but the one thing I couldn't give up,
12:29: I gave up, I finally did give up Joseph Smith and his book of Revelations and his inspired version of the
12:37: Bible, but I could not give up the Book of Mormon, and so I was sitting in my living room one day, and I was praying, and I said,
12:46: Lord, I love the truth that I found out, but I cannot believe that Joseph made up the
12:53: Book of Mormon. I just can't give that up, and I sat there, and I prayed, but I said,
12:59: Lord, I want truth more than anything on this earth. If you would just show me the truth,
13:05: I'll take it, and so I sat there after my prayer, and I opened the
13:10: Bible, and the three main scriptures that prove the Book of Mormon true in the
13:16: Bible are Ezekiel 27, or Ezekiel 37, Isaiah 29, and in the
13:22: New Testament where it says, other sheep I have which are not of this home, so I looked up those scriptures, and it was like a miracle.
13:31: I read the one from Ezekiel. It said where the two sticks that had grown together were
13:37: Joseph Smith Church, and we had always been told it was Joseph Smith Church and Christ, and so when
13:47: I read that scripture, I said, Lord, that's not talking about that.
13:53: It's talking about the northern and southern kingdoms coming back together, and I could understand that for the first time, and then
14:00: I read Isaiah 29 all the way through, and I said, Lord, that's not talking about in the
14:06: Book of Mormon. It's talking about the sins of Israel, and how you were going to punish them for their sins, so then
14:14: I turned to the New Testament and read the scripture that said, other sheep I had which are not of this home, which we had always been told represented the people that came over here and started, and where the
14:29: Book of Mormon came from, the history of the people in the Book of Mormon, so I read that scripture, and it was just like a light went on in my head.
14:42: I said, Lord, that's not talking about the Book of Mormon. That's talking about the
14:47: Gentiles, that you're going to turn to the Gentiles and help them. It was just a miracle.
14:54: Within five minutes, I was completely out of the Church then.
14:59: Those were the scriptures that held me to it, and he gave me an explanation of each one of them, and that's when
15:07: I decided that I'm out of the Church, and it broke my heart, because I love the
15:13: Church with all my heart. May I ask you, I know that sometimes this is considered to be rude to ask a lady this, but how old are you?
15:25: I am almost ninety one. Wow, praise God. So how many generations was your family involved in the
15:34: RLDS? No, I never did really go back into it. I know my mom, my grandma, and my great -grandma were all
15:43: Church members, but that's as far back as I can ever hear anyone talking about. Wow, well that's far enough.
15:51: So what was the reaction of your living family members when you made this announcement to them that you were departing from the
15:59: RLDS? Well, it wasn't easy. It was, I still had, now, my older sisters and brothers had already, they married outside the
16:11: Church, and so they weren't active in it at all at that time, but I had the three sisters, me and my two sisters, we were very close in age and close together, and so they were very upset with me, particularly my one, my younger sister, who now is still very active and strong in the restoration portion of the
16:37: Church, and she has never come out, and there's always, she's always, you know, we just don't have a closeness except to talk about our children and things like this, but it's, once I came out like that,
16:54: I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go. I had never gone to another kind of Church except that, and yet I didn't want to go back to the reorganization anymore, and my husband and our four boys were still, but we went to a
17:11: RLDS Church right up the street from us, and I started then,
17:17: I wanted them to come out too, but I didn't know how ready they were or if they were, or if they would come out, so I started walking up.
17:26: There was a little schoolhouse about a half a block from us up the street, and I had heard that there was a
17:33: Baptist pastor that was starting a little congregation up there, and it was in this one -room schoolhouse, so I decided to walk up one
17:44: Sunday night, and just out of curiosity, this was right after I had left the Church, or just was very fresh out of it, and I walked into that little
17:54: Baptist Church, and I heard the gospel for the first time in my life. I was thrilled to death,
18:02: I tell you. I sat there, and I listened to that preaching, and they were singing praise songs.
18:09: They were singing hymns. I didn't want to come home. It was so wonderful to me, but so I did this for several weeks.
18:18: I'd go to church with my husband and the kids in the morning, two of the RLDS, then
18:23: I would walk up to the little Baptist Church on Sunday night, and I was just getting more and more attached to it, so after a couple of months of going to that church,
18:34: I was asked, is there anybody here that has not accepted the
18:42: Lord that would like to accept the Lord, and I said I would. I started accepting a women's
18:49: Bible study at the time, and so I went to that women's Bible study, and they all gathered around me and prayed for me, and I accepted the
19:00: Lord that night at that little gathering, and I've never been so happy in all my life as I was that night.
19:07: Praise God. It was just like a burden had been lifted off of me, so but then
19:15: I had the problem of my husband was a priesthood member, and all the kids were just real, really into the youth group, the
19:23: Zion fleet, and I wanted to go to church someplace else, but I didn't know where to go.
19:32: I finally called. Someone said that I wanted to be re -baptized.
19:37: That's what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to join a church at that time. I just wanted to be baptized, a
19:43: Christian baptism, and because I had already been baptized into the RLDS church, but I wanted to be a
19:50: Christian baptism, so I called an Assembly of God pastor. Someone gave me his number.
19:55: I didn't know who he was, but I asked him if he would baptize me in their church without me joining his church, and he said he wanted to talk to me, so we went out, so I went out and talked to him, and he wanted to know my story, and I told it to him, and I said,
20:15: I'm really anxious to be re -baptized since I've accepted the Lord, and he said, and he prayed for me, and he said, yes,
20:24: I will re -baptize you without you joining the church, but he said, he said, are you sure you don't want to wait for your husband and your four kids, and I said, oh no,
20:37: I said that could take years before they were ready to leave, and he said, well, he prayed for me, and he said,
20:43: I really feel like the Lord is saying that you should wait for them for a while, and I said, well,
20:51: I will for a while, but I don't want to go for years, and so that's when, in February, by June of that year, my husband and our kids were all visiting.
21:06: I asked them if they would go out and visit with me, and they said they would. They loved it from day one.
21:12: It was a miracle. Praise God. So we all started going there, all of our kids, except we have one prodigal son that hasn't been re -baptized yet, but they all started coming out to church with me, and we were all about a couple of months later, we were all baptized together.
21:31: Oh, praise God. And it was a huge, in fact, if you've ever been to an
21:37: Assembly of God church, it was wild that night. It was wild and clapping, and it was something else, but I've never been so happy in my life as I was that night.
21:50: Oh, praise God, yeah. Yes, the Assemblies of God has... That was part of our story, and then we were
21:56: Christians then, so I was, it has gone on from then, from there, and I've never regretted the decision for one minute.
22:06: Amen. Yeah, I was just about to say that the Assembly of God encompasses a wide spectrum of views,
22:15: I mean, within Orthodox Christianity, Biblical Christianity, but they're not all exactly alike.
22:21: I have a number of friends in the Assemblies of God, and if you visited their churches, you would think you were going into different denominations.
22:27: But anyway, I praise God for that. Now, the son, the prodigal son that did not join you, was he remaining in the
22:35: RLDS, or was he just not a believer anyway? You know, it was a couple of years, he was,
22:42: I think he was 19, a couple of years after the rest of us started going to the Assembly church, our son, he was pretty wild, he was running around with a wild bunch of boys at that time, and he had a motorcycle, and he had someone on the motorcycle with him.
22:59: They had gone out to a park, and were going up, and it was dusk, and you couldn't see the steel thing, steel whatever it is, it was stretched across that road, and he was going fast on his motorcycle, and he ran into that full speed, and that cut him right in the stomach, and you know, it just practically cut him in two, and knocked him over the bike, and they took him to the hospital.
23:28: He was in intensive care for two months, the doctor telling us he wouldn't live at all, that there was not a one percent chance he could live, it's what the doctor told me, and we just kept praying, and we had just left, not long before that, we had left the
23:45: RLDS church, and in the church, you have your elders that you always call when you wanted to come and pray for you.
23:52: If you're sick, you always call for the elders, and all the elders of the church where I was going, wanted to come up and pray for Paul, but I just wanted our
24:04: Assembly of God pastor to come and pray. He would come to sometimes twice a day up there to that intensive care room, and pray for Paul, and the doctor just kept telling me there's not a one percent chance that he can live, but he kept getting better after two months of intensive care, and a couple of weeks in the hospital, he got to come home, and he still couldn't walk, but he was laying on the couch in the living room.
24:33: I was desperate for him to accept the Lord, and so I asked him one night,
24:38: I said, Paul would you pray with me to accept the Lord, and of all you've been through, you've got to know that it was the
24:49: Lord that brought you through this. You wouldn't be alive today if the Lord hadn't healed you, and so he waited a minute, and then he called me, and he said,
24:58: Mom, he said, I'm ready. I want to pray with you to accept the Lord. That was a wonderful time, and I prayed with him, he accepted the
25:07: Lord, and then he kind of went back with his bunch for a while, and then got married, and moved away, and started going to a real nice little
25:19: Christian church with his wife, and he wouldn't walk in that church without handing a tithing check to his pastor.
25:26: I don't know where he ever got that, but boy, he was really into tithing, and so we were thrilled, thrilled so much, and he's kind of backslidden a little bit since then, but I'm sure he's still a believer, and he was very sincere when he accepted the
25:49: Lord, so I just go on that. Well, I will pray that this program might be even used of God to draw him back to a right relationship with the
26:01: Lord so that you don't have any doubts haunting you about that, and what a wonderful story, what a fascinating and encouraging and inspiring story.
26:10: Just out of curiosity, the passenger on the motorcycle, I don't remember if you mentioned anything about that person's condition after that accident.
26:20: You know, Paul was sitting in front, and she was sitting in back, and it threw her off.
26:25: Is that what he asked? It threw her off of the motorcycle. It caught Paul, the big horse that was stretched across, but she didn't have any injuries at all.
26:37: Wow. Oh, that's great to hear. Well, we are going to our first break right now, and perhaps when we return from our break, my co -host,
26:47: Dr. Latane C. Scott, who is a former Mormon, not the RLDS variety, but the the larger, more numerically dominant variety, the
26:57: LDS, she was in that group, and then became saved by the grace, mercy, and blood of Christ as well.
27:05: I will have her ask a question of our guest today, and if you have any questions of your own as well, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
27:14: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
27:22: USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
27:28: Perhaps you're still in the RLDS, you're thinking about leaving or something, you don't want to draw attention to yourself, you want to remain anonymous.
27:35: I could understand that, and there are a host of other reasons why you might want to remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
27:44: Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Carol Hansen and more of our discussion on Reorganized Latter -day
27:51: Saint Church, is it Christian? Don't go away. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
28:06: Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.
28:14: That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.
28:26: I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.
28:35: Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.
28:41: This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.
28:50: There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com
28:56: today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org
29:04: forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.
29:27: Hi, Phil Johnson here. I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
29:36: So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the
29:42: G3 conference, where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic,
29:55: A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.
30:05: Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to G3conference .com.
30:14: That's G3conference .com. See you there. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.
30:26: I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.
30:32: Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
30:38: Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled, Consider the
30:44: Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.
30:52: Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many
30:58: Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.
31:04: He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
31:18: In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the
31:28: Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,
31:34: I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.
31:41: Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.
31:49: Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
31:55: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. My name is
32:02: Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
32:08: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
32:14: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
32:20: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
32:27: You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.
32:35: They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
32:41: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
32:51: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
32:58: .nyc. Have a great day. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.
33:09: The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
33:15: He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
33:20: You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the
33:27: Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
33:39: Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,
33:45: Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.
33:52: That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
34:01: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please continue to pray for Mike Gaydosh.
34:09: He recently got out of the hospital after a very serious, very complicated, very dangerous open -heart surgery.
34:17: He is home recovering, doing quite well, but he is not out of the woods. So please keep him in prayer.
34:24: Please pray that he continues to recover and that he rises up to full strength, and that he is a stronger and healthier man physically than he has been in years.
34:33: And pray that he's also a stronger and healthier man spiritually as a result of this trial that our loving and gracious and merciful
34:40: Lord has brought him through. Just out of a note of trivia here, although it's not trivial in reality in my life or his life,
34:50: Carol, the ad that you heard for Buttafuoco & Associates, my friend Dan Buttafuoco is an elder at the
34:55: Bethpage Assembly of God on Long Island, New York. I've been a friend of his since about 1990, so just wanted to throw that in there.
35:04: He's a dear friend and a sponsor of this program. If anybody just joined us, our guest today is
35:11: Carol Hansen. She is a former Reorganized Latter -day Saint who converted by the grace of God to biblical
35:18: Christianity. She is the author of Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is it Christian?
35:24: A Biblical and Historical Perspective of the RLDS Community of Christ Church. And my co -host today is
35:30: Dr. Latane C. Scott, a former member of the LDS cult, the larger of the two
35:37: Mormon groups. This is part three of a series of interviews we've done on the
35:45: RLDS. The first was with Paul Trask, founder of Refiners Fire Ministries, and the second was with Peter Elliott, who is an author and a native of Western Australia, who wrote a book as well on his departure from the
36:03: RLDS. And today we have, as I said, Carol Hansen on. I do hope to have a part four of this series on the
36:11: RLDS. I am working on the possibility of getting an interview with Ron Luff on his book
36:18: Faith Gone Astray, Unveiling the Kirkland Cult Murders. He is spending a life sentence in prison because of his involvement in these murders that you may have seen portrayed in more than one documentary that has been aired on television about this tragedy.
36:37: And he, thanks be to our merciful and loving God, got saved while in prison, even got his doctorate in theology while in prison.
36:44: And we are working with the prison on getting an interview, and we hope that that comes to fruition.
36:50: And we will continue to keep you updated on our interview if it happens to come to fruition with Ron Luff.
36:58: But today is our third part, as I said, and if you have questions of your own on the
37:03: RLDS, the Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com
37:11: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
37:19: USA. Dr. Latane C. Scott, if you could ask your question of Carol Hansen before I ask any of my own and before our listeners have their opportunity.
37:32: Hi Carol. Hello. I have found your story just fascinating.
37:39: I've done some reading about you, and I have a question that has two parts. The first part of the question is that you said that you, when you were a member of the
37:50: RLDS Church, that you were continually bolstered by spiritual experiences that you had, where you had visions or other things that seemed to keep you in the
38:05: RLDS Church, and the second part of my question, I'd like you to describe those, please, and the second part of my question is, how is it different when you had that experience of asking the
38:17: Lord to show you the truth about the RLDS movement, and you went to the
38:24: Bible with those three scriptures, and Ezekiel, and Isaiah, and the other scripture?
38:35: Carol? Yes. Did you hear Latane's question? Yeah. I wanted to know a little bit about the spiritual experiences that you had, that you called a spiritual slavery, that kept you in the
38:56: RLDS Church, the visions that you had that confirmed the Book of Mormon, for instance?
39:02: Uh -huh. Well, so many of my experiences were dreams, visions, and things like that, because most
39:12: RLDS really believe in dreams and all that, and I would have these dreams, and at one point
39:24: I was connected up, there were, oh, there were several of us, that felt the Lord had told us that he was going to use us to build a foundation of Zion, because the
39:39: Lord was, the main church at that time was just RLDS, and the main church had gone into apostasy, so he called our little group together, and we were to go to the churches and prophesy about what was going to happen to them if they didn't repent, and we had a regular little ministry going of prophesying at different congregations.
40:06: It was a kind of a sad time, because we didn't want to do it, but we did it because we thought the
40:14: Lord was telling us to, and of course it never came to fruition, because the
40:19: Lord wasn't in it in the first place, but we thought he was, and we just, that just kept us going.
40:26: We would have dreams, we would go do all sorts of things, and in one of them, the church is really big on the
40:35: American Indians, because they feel like the Book of Mormon people, now that the
40:43: American Indians are the result of when the church, when they came over here and into this country, and how the
40:52: Book of Mormon was written, and so the Indian people now, there's a big interest in the church about them, so we were told in visions and dreams that we were to take, the one
41:07: Indian that was called Little Eagle had come to Independence and had gone to the prophet of the church, and was telling him that the people that believe in the
41:19: Book of Mormon, there's a place in it where it says there's a sealed portion that's never been shown to people, and he came to Independence and went to the prophet and told him that that sealed portion of the
41:31: Book of Mormon was up on the Indian reservation, so that was the big thing that we all, we got a lot of food and clothes and everything together to send up to that reservation, and then we sent our representatives from our little group up there, and they had to go through some really hard rituals, going out into the mountains and sleeping by themselves, and there was another
41:56: Indian called Three Legs up there, and when all of it, all that was done that we were supposed to do, then we were to go to Three Legs, and he would give us that sealed portion of the
42:08: Book of Mormon, and this is something that the RLDS and Mormons have always been interested in, is that little sealed portion that hasn't come forth yet, and it's to tell us a lot more, and so that was a huge letdown for us, because it didn't work out the way we thought it was supposed to, but it's, there was just so many things we did during that in our prophesying days, and of course everything we were saying were false prophecies, because we didn't have, we weren't with the, you know, we just believed in false doctrines at that time.
42:46: We did a lot of prophesying, and I look back on it now, and I'm very embarrassed about the things that we did.
42:56: Well, that's further evidence that we have to rely upon the
43:01: God -breathed words of the Scriptures, and not depend upon our dreams or what we think are supernatural experiences outside of the
43:12: Bible. The Bible alone is to be our authority on matters of faith and practice.
43:18: Would you agree with that, Carol? Absolutely, and that's why we got so far off.
43:27: Not because we weren't going by the Bible. All that time that all of our group, and when
43:34: I was growing up, I did not watch the Bible, because I loved the
43:39: Book of Mormon, and that and the Doctrine and Covenants, their other book of Scripture, is what
43:44: I spent all my time in, because in the very first part of the
43:49: Book of Mormon, it says that all the plain and precious things had been taken out of the
43:55: Bible, as it went through the hands of wicked men. And that stuck in my head, and I thought, why waste my time reading a book where all the plain and precious things have been taken out, when we've got the
44:08: Book of Mormon that has the fullness of the Gospel? And that's what held me to the church so fast, was the fact that we felt the
44:19: Christians were just nominal Christians that believed in this corrupted book, and that we had the real thing.
44:27: And that was a real big thing in my life, to keep me glued to the
44:34: Book of Mormon. And it was so hard for me to leave the Book of Mormon when I came out.
44:41: And Lataine, you had a second question, if you could repeat it for Carol. Well, I wanted to first clarify, were you saying sealed fortunes?
44:51: I'm not familiar with what you were talking about from the Book of Mormon. Did you say the real fortunes?
44:57: In the Book of Mormon, there's a certain portion of it that we don't have in our
45:11: Book of Mormon today. And it's called the sealed portion. And at a certain period of Latter -day
45:18: Saint history, that sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is to be given, what we think, we thought, to the
45:27: RLDS, and I'm sure the Mormons think it's to be given to them. But the sealed portion has a lot of information on it that we just don't have at this time.
45:39: And we always look forward to that sealed portion coming forth. But it never has, and never will, of course, because there's no such thing.
45:50: Lataine, did you have that in your experience in the LDS? Were you taught about these sealed portions of the
45:56: Book of Mormon? We were. I just was not hearing Carolyn accurately.
46:01: I thought she was saying sealed, like F -I -E -L -D, a sealed portion. But that's my problem.
46:10: But my second question for Carolyn was, how was the experience that you had when you went to the
46:16: Lord and asked Him to make things plain to you, and you read the three scriptures, how was that different than what you experienced in the
46:27: RLDS church with the visions and the other things? You mean after I left the church?
46:34: I think she means before you left. Remember when you said you went to Ezekiel, you asked the
46:41: Lord to help you understand, and you went to Ezekiel and Isaiah and to the other passages?
46:50: How was that different, how was that spiritual experience different than what happened with the visions and the dreams you had previously?
47:01: That's a good question. And you know, when I was sitting in the chair praying that day,
47:07: I cannot tell you the peace that came over me as I prayed, because I was convinced that all of it was wrong except the
47:16: Book of Mormon, and I believed in it still, sitting there with all my heart.
47:22: When those scriptures were given to me, and it had to have been the
47:27: Lord that just opened my mind that day, because I had read them a hundred times, but when
47:34: I read them sitting in the chair that day, when I had prayed about that, and He gave me the true interpretations of those three scriptures,
47:43: I knew it was a miracle, because I couldn't have done it on my own. And I knew the
47:48: Lord was speaking to me, I knew He was telling me that He was setting me free.
47:54: I knew I was going to be set free from the whole thing, because the Book of Mormon was what held me to the church at that point, and I was free after about five minutes of reading those scriptures, and knowing what the
48:09: Lord was saying, I was out, totally out of the church. It was a miracle. Praise God.
48:17: Praise God. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks,
48:24: How old were you when you finally left the RLDS church? I'm sorry if you have said it before, but I came in late.
48:32: And my second question is, have you seen the downfall of the
48:39: RLDS into liberalism before you left it? Well, I'll answer the second one.
48:52: The church, when I left it back in 1984, there wasn't, it was just beginning to go liberal when we left.
49:05: And I didn't leave it because it was liberal, but they were just, the hierarchy of the church was just really starting to go liberal at that point.
49:13: Because we had a pretty solid, I mean, we really believed in Joseph Smith in my generation.
49:19: When we were growing up in the 30s and 40s, when I was growing up, everything in the church was promoting
49:27: Joseph Smith and upholding Joseph Smith. And then, all of a sudden, in 1984, when they started calling women to the priesthood and the church split, then it started going very liberal.
49:41: And it's because the community of Christ wants so bad to be considered a
49:47: Christian denomination. And this is why they practically, they honestly don't hardly believe anything that Joseph Smith taught anymore.
49:58: Some of them do, of course, but the hierarchy of the church, they don't believe all these early revelations of Joseph Smith anymore.
50:05: Because they want to be considered a Christian denomination. But they can't give up the fact that they've got
50:14: Joseph Smith, and they can't let go of him, or they don't have a church. They can't give up his three books of scripture, because that would bring them away from their whole belief system.
50:30: And they can't give up their priesthood. This is the thing that holds the community of Christ, I think, more than anything, is they believe in Joseph Smith's priesthood system.
50:46: And they can't let go of that, because it was Joseph Smith that had the revelations pointing out about the priesthood.
50:51: And the priesthood is their authority. And if they give up Joseph Smith, then they don't have any authority.
50:59: So they keep that. And so they can't go all the way away from Joseph Smith, but they don't like to talk about him much in their magazine.
51:10: They don't like to bring Joseph Smith up, probably ever. Because they want to be considered a
51:15: Christian denomination very badly. Well, it's interesting that you say that, because from what
51:22: I have heard about the community of Christ, it seems more like they want to be considered a mainline liberal
51:30: Protestant denomination more than ever, because they seem to be bringing forth or declaring very few things that are authentically
51:40: Christian. Am I making sense here? Well, yeah. And that's what they want to do, is be considered
51:46: Christian. But they can't do it all the way, because they have to hold on to Joseph Smith's priesthood and the belief in Zion, that they're going to have the city of Zion.
51:58: And they can't give those up and still have any semblance of their original church.
52:09: They want to get rid of those things, but they can't. Those teachings, but they can't. Right. But as far as some of the pillar tenets of Christianity, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, and the inerrancy of scripture, a condemnation of the sin of homosexuality, those things seem to be absent from the current community of Christ, which would more clearly identify them as Christian rather than as mainline liberal
52:38: Protestant. Do you see where I'm going there? Yeah. Go ahead,
52:49: I'm sorry. No, I was just going to say, since they brought in the homosexual issue a few years ago, it has really, a lot more people have left the
53:03: Church since then that didn't believe in homosexuality, or in, what am
53:09: I trying to say, polygamy. Homosexuality. In what? Homosexuality.
53:18: Perhaps when... The homosexual issue has been a big dividing thing in the
53:23: Church. And we're going to go, we're going to return to this subject right where we left off here when we come back from our elongated midway break.
53:33: Please be patient with us. We are required to have this long break in the middle because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
53:40: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires this break since they air their own commercials and public service announcements during this time to localize
53:50: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida. So please be patient. Use this time to write your questions for our guest
53:56: Carol Hansen. And also use this time to write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them.
54:06: Because the longer you patronize and the more often you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air.
54:18: Because we require those advertising dollars to exist. And we require also your generous donations to exist.
54:27: So please not only write down the information of our advertisers, but send in your questions to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.
54:34: chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back right after these messages with more of Carol Hansen and the
54:42: RLDS cult. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the
54:49: Pastors Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.
54:59: www .wlie540am .com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the
55:06: Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.
55:12: Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.
55:23: www .wlie540am .com One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.
55:31: I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use
55:37: BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs. At BatteryDepot .com,
55:43: they're changing the status quo. They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.
55:59: Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.
56:08: Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs, laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes,
56:24: GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to BatteryDepot .com.
56:33: Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and 6 -month warranties.
56:40: Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.
56:49: Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,
57:09: Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.
57:18: Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
57:26: Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.
57:32: We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
57:40: Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.
57:47: For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
57:54: That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
58:03: That's liyfc .org. Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.
58:29: Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent, biblically faithful teachers on their lineup, sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.
58:39: If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to FirstLoveRadio .org.
58:48: They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.
58:57: W .R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jakowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Delcor, and more.
59:07: FirstLoveRadio .org also live streams my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program daily.
59:13: Please stick around on FirstLoveRadio .org after Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace.
59:24: Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
59:48: Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.
59:57: That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.
01:00:07: I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.
01:00:17: Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.
01:00:23: This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.
01:00:31: There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com
01:00:38: today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org
01:00:46: forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.
01:00:59: My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.
01:01:06: I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
01:01:12: I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
01:01:18: It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown
01:01:23: Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc
01:01:31: .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
01:01:39: If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit
01:01:48: New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc
01:01:55: .nyc. Have a great day. Tired of box store
01:02:02: Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?
01:02:10: And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.
01:02:17: Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.
01:02:27: And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.
01:02:36: 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.
01:02:44: That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.
01:02:49: The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the
01:02:55: NASV is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation. The NASV offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the
01:03:04: NASV is known for. The NASV is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference
01:03:14: Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print
01:03:19: Bibles, find an NASV that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the
01:03:27: NASV for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com.
01:03:42: Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.
01:03:56: They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.
01:04:13: For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.
01:04:24: Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.
01:04:30: 717 -697 -1981. Or visit solidrockremodeling .com.
01:04:38: That's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.
01:04:46: Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.
01:04:52: Iron. Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is
01:04:58: Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the
01:05:05: G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.
01:05:10: It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.
01:05:16: It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight to me.
01:05:22: So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.
01:05:28: And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris and a cavalcade of great preachers.
01:05:36: So it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me. G3conference .com. G3conference .com.
01:05:48: Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:05:54: I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:06:01: Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.
01:06:09: Since 1987, the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available
01:06:14: Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
01:06:27: That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:06:40: Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church and to Christ.
01:06:53: That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.
01:07:01: Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And this Wednesday and Thursday only,
01:07:09: CVBBS .com is having their customer appreciation sale, their most popular sale event.
01:07:16: You'll get an additional 10 % off their already discounted prices if you select anything that they sell and automatically you'll get an even lower price.
01:07:26: The shipping is based on their normal prices and is excluded from the discount. You can go to CVBBS .com
01:07:34: to place your order. CVBBS .com, you can obviously go there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.
01:07:43: But you could also call them at their toll -free number Monday through Friday. And during the sale, you can call them between 9 a .m.
01:07:49: and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231.
01:07:58: Please take advantage of this sale because we depend upon CVBBS .com
01:08:04: to support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. They mail out all of the free books that we offer during interviews to listeners who submit questions, and the free
01:08:13: New American Standard Bibles that they ship out. They ship out everything for us so that we do not have to pay any shipping costs.
01:08:20: So please take advantage of the sale at CVBBS .com. Before I return to Carol Hansen, our guest today, a former
01:08:28: Reorganized Latter -day Saint who was saved by the grace and mercy of Christ and wrote a book called
01:08:34: Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is It Christian? Before we return to her, we just have a couple of more announcements to make.
01:08:41: First of all, this week, Friday and Saturday of this week, we are going to be in Jacksonville, Florida, where I have organized two very important events and where I will have an
01:08:58: Iron Sharpen's Iron exhibitors booth. The first is at the Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida campus.
01:09:05: This features my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and his dear friend
01:09:11: Dr. Michael L. Brown of the Line of Fire radio program and also the Fire School for Ministry.
01:09:17: They will be both speaking on the theme, A House -Mended Christian Unity in a Culture of Outrage.
01:09:24: That's Friday, September 7th, 630 p .m. at the Jacksonville, Florida campus of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
01:09:30: For details, go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. That is one of the sponsors of the event, SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org.
01:09:38: Then, the following night, I have arranged a debate on Saturday, September 8th, also at 630 p .m.
01:09:46: This time, the event will be at the Switzerland Community Church of Switzerland, Florida, a town nearby
01:09:53: Jacksonville. It is a formal debate on the theme, Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience?
01:10:02: Dr. James R. White and Dr. Michael L. Brown are going to be on the same team debating against two ministers who profess to be
01:10:10: Christian, who are also actively involved in homosexuality, and are both married to individuals of their same gender, of their own gender.
01:10:20: This is a free event, and if you want more information on this debate on Is Homosexuality Consistent with New Testament Obedience, go to SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org,
01:10:31: SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org. Please pray about those events. Not only pray that no one backs out of the event.
01:10:38: We already had one individual back out of the side defending homosexuality, but we were able to replace that person, so we're so excited and thankful that we were able to replace that person in the debate.
01:10:50: So please pray that no one else backs out, and pray that the tropical storm down there in Florida does not hinder anyone attending the events or the events themselves from taking place.
01:11:04: SwitzerlandCommunityChurch .org is the website. Then coming up in November, on the 9th and the 10th of November, the
01:11:10: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the
01:11:15: Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, on the theme, The Glory of the Cross. Speakers include
01:11:21: David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn. For more details, go to AllianceNet .org.
01:11:29: That's AllianceNet .org. Click on Events, and then scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.
01:11:36: Then coming up in January, the long -awaited G3 Conference, the
01:11:43: G3 Conference where I am going to be, God willing, manning another exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for my third year in a row.
01:11:53: I am so excited about this. They're expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to be at the
01:11:58: G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory. It's being held at the Georgia International Convention Center, and it is on the theme,
01:12:07: The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions. They are also having a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so tell your
01:12:18: Spanish -speaking and bilingual friends about that. But as far as the English -speaking event, from Thursday, January 17th to Saturday, January 19th, they have a very long roster, as always, a very long and impressive roster, scheduled to speak at the
01:12:36: G3 Conference, including my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, John Piper, Stephen J.
01:12:42: Lawson, Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry, Grace, to you,
01:12:53: Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J. Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late
01:13:00: R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that lineup. Please register at G3Conference .com,
01:13:07: G3Conference .com, and I strongly urge you, if you have a parachurch ministry or business that you would like to promote amidst that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people,
01:13:17: I would register for an exhibitor's booth, if I were you, just like I will be manning, God willing, by going to G3Conference .com,
01:13:26: G3Conference .com. Last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear, go to IonSharpensIonRadio .com,
01:13:33: click support, then click, click to donate now. Please, if you really do want this program to remain in existence,
01:13:43: I am depending upon your generosity and your faithfulness to donating to us, and with, this is a very strong caveat, please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church.
01:13:56: If you don't have a local church that you are a member of, I have lists of faithful Bible -believing churches all over the world that I can recommend you to attend at most places on the globe.
01:14:11: So please send me an email if you don't have a local church where you are a member that's biblically faithful.
01:14:16: Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put
01:14:22: I need a church or something similar in the subject line. But never siphon money away from your regular giving to that church if you are a member of a good
01:14:29: Bible -believing church, and never siphon money away from your family's dinner table or put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
01:14:39: Providing for your church and your family are commands of God. Providing for my show is not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love this show, please give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as much as you can and as often as you can by going to irontripandzionradio .com,
01:14:56: click support, then click, click to donate now, and you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card.
01:15:02: irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. You can also mail in a check via snail mail to the address that appears on your screen when you go to irontripandzionradio .com
01:15:12: and click support. If you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:15:18: and as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what
01:15:26: I believe, then feel free to please send in an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line because we definitely need your advertising dollars to remain on the air.
01:15:36: And you can also use that email address to send in a question to Carol Hanson on the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day
01:15:43: Saints, the cult that she departed from by the grace of God when she was saved by Christ's mercy and grace and blood.
01:15:51: And that email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:15:57: And before the break, Carol, one of the questions that Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, asked you was how old you were when you departed the
01:16:09: RLDS. I was 50 years old. And so how long has it been since you have been a
01:16:18: Bible -believing Christian? 40 years. Wow, praise
01:16:23: God for that. Yes, every day. Praise God.
01:16:30: And Dr. Latine C. Scott, did Carol successfully answer both of your questions?
01:16:38: She did, but I have another one. We don't have one in the wings. Well, we do have several in the wings, but go ahead and ask yours.
01:16:46: Well, I think this might encourage people who are listening who might be RLDS or LDS. Carol, you said that you had a hungering for Jesus all the time that you were in the
01:16:57: RLDS church, and that was my experience, too. How can you encourage people to keep searching for truth that have that hungering for Jesus?
01:17:10: Well, that's a good question, because I had it from the time I was a little girl. I just loved the
01:17:16: Lord. I wanted to serve the Lord all my life. It was just something with me. It's hard to know the difference when
01:17:28: I was in the church and loved the Lord and when I left the church and still loved the
01:17:34: Lord, and yet there was such a difference. I didn't feel like I was saved when I was in the church, but you have that hungering for Him.
01:17:42: And I think the main thing is to be persistent in your prayers, because I really believe that if a person sincerely wants the truth, that the
01:17:54: Lord will give it to them. And I don't care how steeped you are in any cult or anything else, if a person is searching for the
01:18:02: Lord and wants the truth, the Lord is going to in some way give that person the truth.
01:18:07: That's what He did for me, and only the Lord could have done it because I was so strong in the church.
01:18:14: Praise God. Praise God. Let's see here. We have Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina, who has a question.
01:18:24: And Grady asks, Another great show, Brother Chris.
01:18:29: My question is, were the Mormon writings the same that these two groups shared?
01:18:37: If so, was there major interpretation differences or pretty much the same?
01:18:43: I think he meant to ask, what were the Mormon writings that were the same? And you mentioned them earlier, but if you would repeat that.
01:18:51: And were they interpreted differently? Obviously, there must have been some difference in interpretations because they were and remain two different religions entirely.
01:19:01: But if you could answer Grady's question from Asheboro, North Carolina, Carol. Well, from 1830, when the church was started until Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, all of our writings were the same.
01:19:18: You know, there was no RLDS church. It was just the Latter -day
01:19:23: Saint church. And then, of course, after that, they have, after the Mormons, after we split and the reorganized church started in 1860, and we had our own set of books and beliefs that we had, and we didn't, of course, follow the
01:19:42: Mormons anymore, but we had the same scriptures as they did until the church split in 1844.
01:19:54: But obviously, there were some differences of interpretation because you have so many stark contrasts with one another.
01:20:03: You have the LDS believing in polytheism, although they deny that.
01:20:09: They obviously believe in polytheism, whether they admit it or not. They're at least henotheists, which still involves multiple gods since they believe that they can progress into godhood if they're faithful, whereas the
01:20:24: RLDS has not believed that. The RLDS did not practice polygamy.
01:20:31: From what I heard from Peter Elliott, they, for the most, the greatest part of their history, the
01:20:38: RLDS did not practice baptism for the dead, but some of the leaders began practicing it in private in the 20th century without really announcing it to the broader church.
01:20:51: But there obviously were some different interpretations of those documents. Am I right? Yes. Well, there's still a difference in the church today about what people believe, what went on in Nauvoo.
01:21:07: And, of course, young Joseph that started the RLDS church in 1860, there was about 14 years in there before he became the prophet of the
01:21:21: RLDS church when we started. And he did not go along with the fact that there was polygamy in Nauvoo or any of that because he was trying to defend his father.
01:21:34: But you have to go back into the history, and Joseph Smith certainly was into polygamy at that time.
01:21:42: And so the RLDS has never gone along with the fact that Joseph Smith was into polygamy.
01:21:53: Now, the leaders of the community of Christ today are beginning to admit that he was into polygamy.
01:22:03: But when the reorganized church started in 1860, that was the main thing because Emma Smith, Joseph's wife, she knew what
01:22:14: Joseph Smith was doing in Nauvoo, and she knew he was into polygamy, and she wanted to defend him.
01:22:20: And she really did, and to her family. So her son that took over the
01:22:27: RLDS church, he never did believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
01:22:33: But now the community of Christ is coming back and admitting that Joseph Smith was mixed up in the polygamy thing and that he did practice polygamy in Nauvoo.
01:22:46: But the restorationists, who are the real believers in Joseph Smith in the
01:22:52: RLDS right now, they still just adamantly defend
01:22:59: Joseph Smith and say he was never into polygamy. So you've got a lot of variety of people who believe he was and wasn't in the church.
01:23:09: But the community of Christ is admitting now that he definitely was into all that, and baptism for the dead and all of that, that they were practicing in Nauvoo.
01:23:21: By the way, both of our listeners who have written in questions have won a free copy of the book
01:23:30: Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is it Christian? by Carol Hansen. Please give us your full mailing addresses so that CVBBS .com
01:23:38: can ship copies of that book out to you. We have
01:23:43: Larry in Blue Springs, Missouri, a first -time questioner. Larry says,
01:23:50: Hi Carol, we have known of your ministry for many years and have appreciated it.
01:23:56: My question is about the restoration branch of the RLDS church. Our church has a number of restoration folks who have come to attend our church on a regular basis, a
01:24:08: Baptist church, and I'm wondering how you feel they differ or not from the historical traditional
01:24:17: RLDS church. Well, we hear about this quite a bit from the restorationists.
01:24:26: We've been going to, I've been attending a nationwide Bible study for quite a while now, and in it it's supposed to be non -denominational, and you know, regardless of what religion, and we had several of them that went to me that are restorationists, died in the war, restorationists, but all of them, and we've had a lot of conversations with them, and they all say the same thing, that they love
01:24:56: Jesus and they love visiting other churches just like those people are, but they don't want to leave their church.
01:25:06: They still have that, they've got to stick with their church, but this is, when people, and that's what
01:25:13: I did when I was in the church, when you start visiting these Protestant churches, you get attached to them because you start hearing the gospel, and you don't even realize how different it is from what you believe until after you listen to it for a while, so that's a really good thing when people visit churches like that, because they're going to hear the word, they're going to hear the gospel, and the real gospel, and pretty soon they're going to become dissatisfied with the church they're in.
01:25:44: And that happens to a lot of people that come out. They start visiting these
01:25:50: Protestant churches. It's just like I did when I was in the church. Once I started visiting the little
01:25:56: Protestant church, you know, the little Baptist church up the street, I was never satisfied to go back to the church at all after that, and that's the hopeful part when they come, but at some point they need to be told the differences in doctrine, because a lot of them will come and say, well, we believe just like you do, but they really don't when it's, you know, some of them aren't willing to make the break, others are.
01:26:23: It's such a variety of people coming out like that, and so I say praise the
01:26:31: Lord if they're coming, if they're visiting, because they're hearing the gospel, and that's what's going to bring us eventually out anyway is the gospel.
01:26:41: When they hear it over and over, they're going to be hungry for it, and the
01:26:46: Lord will bring them out. Well, thank you, Larry. Please give us your full mailing address in Blue Springs, Missouri, so that we can have cvbbs .com
01:26:55: mail you a copy of Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is It Christian? by Carol Hansen, and you'll also get a free
01:27:03: New American Standard Bible because you are a first -time questioner. Thank you very much. We have an anonymous listener overseas, and this anonymous listener says, this is a wonderful testimony to the glory of God.
01:27:19: I am confused about something. You say, if I am correct, that you loved the
01:27:24: Lord since you were a little child, but who was this Lord you loved if you didn't believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal
01:27:32: Son of God at that time? Can you please explain this? Thank you. Well, that is a great question, and I wish
01:27:39: I could answer it probably the way you want. I don't know. I remember when
01:27:44: I was a little girl, just 8 years old, I remember praying at my bedside for like 10 or 20 minutes every night.
01:27:54: I could not get enough of the Lord, and I was steeped in the RLDS Church from the time
01:28:00: I was born, and yet I had that hungering for the Lord, and I didn't understand it, and as I got older, it never left me that I just wanted to know the
01:28:11: Lord and love Him. But my way of loving Him was through the church I belonged to, and once you agree with Joseph Smith and believe him, then you shift over and you start believing all that he taught.
01:28:25: But I look back on it in my own personal life, and this is just my personal testimony.
01:28:32: I think that I had a hungering for the Lord from the time I was just small, and I think the
01:28:37: Lord was even while I was a church member, I think He was working with me and got me to the point where I would venture out from the comfort zone that I had in the church and even visit a little
01:28:55: Baptist church up the street, and when I went there, I was ready. I was ready for the truth.
01:29:02: I don't know how it happened, and I don't know when it happened in my life, but I know when
01:29:08: I heard the gospel at that little Baptist church, I was so ready to accept the
01:29:13: Lord. Oh, that was quite an experience. Amen.
01:29:20: Praise God. I hear a bit of emotion in your voice, Carol. That's a blessing to hear. And, of course,
01:29:28: I believe if anybody listens to this program long enough, they're going to know that I believe that the
01:29:37: Lord draws people from all kinds of backgrounds, and He begins the drawing process before you really know who
01:29:47: He is in fullness, and I think that's what the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill was appealing to that fact when he was pointing to the unknown
01:29:58: God of the altar that some of these Greeks had erected, and there are people who are being drawn by God and come to know who
01:30:10: Jesus Christ is, but that knowledge was not full -blown to them in the beginning of the drawing process, so I believe that you,
01:30:19: Carol, were being drawn before you even knew who Christ truly was. Absolutely.
01:30:26: And, by the way, our overseas listener, we do not ship books and Bibles overseas because CVBBS .com
01:30:35: cannot afford to do that, and they're the ones shipping out books and Bibles for us, but we are happy to know that there is an
01:30:42: American that you know who will provide this book for you or give it to you, so thank you very much for writing in to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and perhaps next time you can not remain anonymous so we can know who you are.
01:30:59: And we're going to go to our final break right now. If you would like to join us on the air, do so now because we're quickly running out of time.
01:31:09: This is a shorter break than our last one, but please, if you intend to write in, send your emails to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,
01:31:17: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, and give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:31:28: USA, and please, again, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:31:35: Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Carol Hansen and more of her exodus from the reorganized
01:31:42: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:32:05: I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,
01:32:17: A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.
01:32:30: I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com,
01:32:37: that's g3conference .com. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am
01:32:47: I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,
01:32:54: I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a
01:33:00: Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.
01:33:07: We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do, than how men view these things.
01:33:15: That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.
01:33:22: We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
01:33:35: If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.
01:33:41: You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our
01:33:52: TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,
01:33:59: that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor
01:34:06: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.
01:34:12: As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.
01:34:18: And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the
01:34:23: Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in business ethics.
01:34:31: Contact me, Mike Gallagher, financial consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.
01:34:39: Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the
01:34:45: Thriving Difference. We know we were made for so much more than ordinary life.
01:34:53: Lending faith, finances, and generosity, that's the Thriving Story. Just survive.
01:35:01: We were made to thrive. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225
01:35:13: Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a
01:35:20: Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:35:26: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:35:33: We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.
01:35:40: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:35:46: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.
01:35:53: Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. One sure way all
01:36:02: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use
01:36:14: BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs. At BatteryDepot .com,
01:36:20: they're changing the status quo. They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.
01:36:36: Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.
01:36:46: Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs, laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes,
01:37:01: GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to BatteryDepot .com.
01:37:10: Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and 6 -month warranties.
01:37:17: Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.
01:37:26: Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round
01:37:43: Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.
01:37:52: For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars. Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.
01:38:04: An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.
01:38:15: 90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington, and easily accessible, scores of notable
01:38:24: Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars, like The Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the
01:38:34: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.
01:38:42: hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689.
01:38:49: 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.
01:39:07: Hello, my name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
01:39:14: The Word of God says, If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.
01:39:20: Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the
01:39:26: Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California, was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.
01:39:37: It has been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the
01:39:45: Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the
01:39:51: Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by His life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the
01:40:01: Church is to honor and serve the Triune God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.
01:40:12: Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and His Church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?
01:40:19: You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two
01:40:25: S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Oh, we thank IRBS Theological Seminary for joining us as a new sponsor of Iron Sherpa and Iron Radio.
01:40:34: We also thank our friends, our new friends at Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding.
01:40:40: You might have heard them being raved about so excitedly and then enthusiastically by my friend
01:40:46: Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on the Dividing Line, who has become a new, very delighted, and very well -pleased customer of Post -Tenebrous
01:40:56: Lux Bible Rebinding. We'll be playing new commercials by them very soon, but for now, if you want more details about Post -Tenebrous
01:41:05: Lux Bible Rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com. P -T -L for Post -Tenebrous
01:41:13: Lux. BibleRebinding .com. P -T -L BibleRebinding .com.
01:41:19: We are now back with our guest, Carol Hanson. She is a former reorganized
01:41:25: Latter -day Saint who was saved by the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ and is now a
01:41:30: Bible -believing Christian. Our co -host today is Dr. Latane C.
01:41:36: Scott. She is a former Latter -day Saint, not the RLDS, but the LDS, is the cult that she was once a member of for quite a long time, and she was also saved by the mercy of Christ and is a
01:41:48: Bible -believing Christian and author of the classic work, The Mormon Mirage. And, Latane, how long has that book now been in print?
01:41:58: The first edition came out in 1979, so this will be the 40th anniversary next year.
01:42:06: Wow. Well, praise God for that. Well, we have, let's see, we have another listener who has a question.
01:42:15: Let's see here. We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks,
01:42:22: Can you give us some more of the stark differences that exist between the
01:42:28: RLDS and LDS? Carol? Well, I think, of course, there's the polygamy issue, which the
01:42:41: Mormons, you know, practiced for years after they went to Utah, but now they've given that up.
01:42:52: It's the leadership. It's the leadership. I hope that our listeners could be patient with our guest, Carol. She is almost 91, so she needs to have someone on occasion repeat the questions to her in her home there.
01:43:04: So, Carol, do you have any other differences? Like, for instance, I know of one in particular, the baptism for the dead.
01:43:15: That is something that the LDS routinely does, which is why they have the largest database,
01:43:22: I think, in existence of ancestral records. In fact, there is likely nobody listening to this show whose ancestry is not archived by the
01:43:34: Latter -day Saints because they baptize for as many people that they are aware of who have been deceased either recently or centuries ago.
01:43:44: I know that I have relatives, long dead, that were baptized by Mormons.
01:43:52: Obviously, not the actual person, but they were baptized symbolically by members of the
01:44:00: Latter -day Saint church. And that, from what Peter Elliott said, was, for the most part of the history of the
01:44:08: RLDS, not practiced other than people in the hierarchy who recently began to do it, or at least in the 20th century.
01:44:16: Can you explain a little bit more about that? Well, we were always told that Joseph Smith did have the revelation on baptism for the dead, but they were going to, for ours, it was not to be practiced now, but the day would come when the
01:44:38: Lord would give the go -ahead to have that again in the church.
01:44:44: But we never have gone back to that yet, or they haven't in the RLDS church. But it's still in their doctrine and covenants, and they still think at some point it might happen again on that.
01:45:01: What can you tell us about, I've asked this of Paul Trask of Refiners Fire Ministry, another former
01:45:10: RLDS member, and I've asked Peter Elliott this, and there seems to be, because of the fact that the
01:45:16: RLDS is nearly devoid of a systematic theology, there seems to be fuzziness on important matters.
01:45:23: What can you tell us about the RLDS position on how one becomes saved, and how one is admitted into heaven, and also on a topic like the
01:45:36: Trinity, which is an important pillar of the Christian faith, if you could address those two issues.
01:45:43: Well, as far as saved is concerned, the RLDS teach in the Doctrine and Covenants, their scripture says that they are saved when they're baptized in water.
01:45:56: Not what Jesus did on the cross for you, but when you're baptized in water, and then the elders lay hands on you and confirm you to that.
01:46:05: That, in their opinion, is when you're saved and going to go to heaven.
01:46:12: To their heaven, which is very different from the Christian heaven. And that's how they, they do not believe the way
01:46:21: Christians do. Well, as far as, do they believe that you need to merit or earn your salvation through your obedience and that kind of a thing?
01:46:31: As far as after post -baptism, how do you remain someone in good standing with God?
01:46:37: Is it something that you earn through your obedience? Well, then you earn, yes.
01:46:45: You're baptized and that, from then on, you do good work.
01:46:51: This is the big difference between the RLDS teachings, Mormon teachings, and the
01:46:56: Christian teaching, is that you earn your way to heaven. You have to, I have a sister who's in the, she's in the restoration branches, very steeped in that.
01:47:08: And I asked her one day about salvation. What did she believe about it?
01:47:15: And this is their typical answer, that they loved the Lord.
01:47:20: They were baptized when they were eight years old. And if you, from that point on, if you do as good a work as you can, if you help people and live the best life you know how, she said, then when
01:47:35: I die, I'll find out if I'm good enough to go to heaven. Wow. And that is the mindset of most of them, is that they do all these things down here, then when they stand at the doors of heaven, if they've been good enough then, then they're graded on the curve to see, you know, and if they're good enough to get in heaven then.
01:47:58: We never had the assurance of salvation in the
01:48:04: RLDS church. Wow. And of course, on the other side of the coin, you never, from what
01:48:11: I understand, believed in the blasphemous teaching that the LDS upholds, that you can progress to becoming a god yourself.
01:48:20: No, Joseph Smith did teach that, you know, before the
01:48:26: RLDS church, and he definitely teached that, but no, that was one of those teachings.
01:48:32: The RLDS never accepted those teachings. And as far as, go ahead,
01:48:37: I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was just going to ask about the Trinity. What was the teaching to your understanding?
01:48:45: I remember Paul Trask saying it was sort of fuzzy, it was functionally Trinitarian, but there was no real solid teaching on it, and Peter Elliott seemed to believe it was more reflective of binatarianism, where the
01:48:58: Holy Spirit was just a force or an it rather than a person of the Godhead. What is your remembrance of that?
01:49:05: Well, that's the way, we believed in God the Father, and we never said
01:49:11: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. That wasn't even part of our vocabulary. But we believed in God and that Jesus was his
01:49:19: Son, but we never were, I wasn't anyway, ever told in the church that Jesus was
01:49:25: God, ever. They said we always had to say he was the Son of God, but never
01:49:31: God, and the Holy Spirit was just the Spirit of God and Christ combined is the way it was taught to us.
01:49:39: But the Holy Spirit was never a person, and the
01:49:45: Holy Spirit and Jesus were never God in our bringing up in the church. It was just God the
01:49:51: Father, and then Jesus Christ the Son, and then the Holy Spirit was the combination of the
01:49:56: Father and the Son and the Spirit in them. And what was the reason you were told that Jesus Christ had to suffer and die on the cross, and then rise again?
01:50:07: I'm assuming you were taught that Jesus did rise, but I'm not sure of that. I don't remember specifically with Paul and Peter who were guests on this program.
01:50:18: This is a good question, because we always were taught that Jesus, at Easter time particularly, that Jesus died and went to the cross for the sins of the world.
01:50:34: We were never, ever told why he died and what he accomplished on the cross.
01:50:41: I never heard any teaching about that, and I was in the church for a long time. All their emphasis was on us doing good work to earn our way to heaven.
01:50:52: We never looked at it that it was what Jesus did for us on the cross, is the way we would go to heaven when we died.
01:51:01: It was just kind of a little side subject of some kind, but they never emphasized the cross.
01:51:08: Anyway, when I was growing up in the church, they never emphasized the cross or the meaning of the cross, and I never did really know that much about it.
01:51:18: We have Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, how many splinter groups are you aware of that broke away from the
01:51:29: RLDS? Over a hundred. Yeah, I've heard that there were over a hundred.
01:51:35: In fact, I've even heard higher numbers than that at times, and I don't know that anyone's ever really caught them, but there's at least a hundred.
01:51:43: That's a safe number. Wow. And by the way, you have also won a free copy of Reorganized Latter -day
01:51:51: Saint Churches at Christian by our guest Carol Hansen. So Christopher, please give us your full mailing address in Suffolk County, New York, so we can have that mailed out to you by cvbbs .com.
01:52:01: I want to have Carol give us some earmarks for a cult, some things that we should be looking out for when our listeners might be interested in perhaps visiting or joining a church, or they have loved ones visiting or joining a church or organization that they should be aware of that are earmarks of a cult.
01:52:22: But before I do that, Dr. Latane C. Scott, do you have any other question to ask of our guest before I move on to that issue?
01:52:30: No, this has been fascinating. Thank you. Okay. Carol, could you give us some earmarks of a cult that people should be aware of?
01:52:39: Well, I think the Trinity is one thing that isn't explained in the cult the way it should be.
01:52:50: I think one of the main things, for me anyway, all the cults emphasize good works.
01:52:57: Every one of them except true Christianity, you go to heaven by doing your good works.
01:53:04: Real Christianity is the only religion where you can't do anything to save yourself, but it was what
01:53:12: Jesus did on the cross. And when you hear them talking about good works to earn your way, you know that something's wrong there.
01:53:21: And also in the RLDS, for Christians, they ought to be careful.
01:53:28: If there's more than one book of Scripture, that is something to really raise your eye around.
01:53:34: Because Christians only have the Bible, and they believe the Bible is the Word of God. But when you belong to a church that has all these three different books, like the
01:53:46: RLDS does, that should be a real question mark as to who they are.
01:53:53: And you can't go by how they live, because these people live, most of them live very good lives, and they put a lot of stock in the way they live.
01:54:04: And you've got to give them credit for that. But they don't know what the gospel is, and they don't know about the cross.
01:54:11: That's where they lack is the cross. Yes, and that is a vital pillar of the
01:54:20: Christian faith, because without the cross, we will all be in hell. And I just want to make sure our listeners also are clear on something, however.
01:54:31: I equally condemn a false notion that has raised up within evangelicalism over the past century or so that teaches that people can live any way they want, and they will still be in heaven when they die.
01:54:49: If they are unrepentant, you could be an unrepentant serial killer, according to some
01:54:55: Christians, and that person will be in heaven. Well, I believe that if somebody is truly a
01:55:00: Christian, although their works mean absolutely nothing in regard to earning heaven, and their works are filthy rags if they hold them up to God for admittance into heaven, as if it were a ticket into heaven, but a good tree bears good fruit, and when someone is saved, their lives will be marked out, not by perfection, but they will be living lives of repentance, and when they do fall into sin, they will get back up and repent and follow
01:55:32: Christ. I just wanted to make sure that, because very often the cults in the Roman Catholic Church will say that we are trying to promote a licentious lifestyle, even a satanic lifestyle amongst truly regenerate people, but I don't believe that those two things coincide.
01:55:51: I'm not sure, where do you come from on that one, Carol? I mean, do you believe that a true Christian, although he's saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, will his life or her life not be marked out by repentance?
01:56:05: Well, absolutely, there'll be repentance, and I think the two best examples of that type of thing in the
01:56:10: Bible is the thief on the cross who never did anything right, I don't think, in his whole life.
01:56:16: He was a thief, but accepted Christ, you know, while he was hanging on a cross, dying, and listening, he accepted
01:56:23: Christ, and Cornelius is another good example of, on the opposite side, of somebody that had led a, we'd say, almost a perfect life, he did everything, he prayed, he helped the poor, he did everything a
01:56:38: Christian should do, and then sent for Peter and had him come, and let him tell us what
01:56:46: I must do to be saved. So that knocks the, if Cornelius wasn't saved, then that leads us right back to the fact that it is
01:56:59: Jesus who paid it all on the cross, and that is the only way we come to salvation, and it's what he did for us on the cross.
01:57:09: Amen, and even the thief on the cross, the one of the two that came to saving faith in Christ, he repented, because a lot of people, when they see the story on TV or in movies, you'll have one quote -quote bad thief and one quote -quote good thief, but they were both mocking
01:57:27: Christ, and then one, by God's mercy, repented, and then even rebuked the other thief.
01:57:34: So there was a transformation that took place. That's right. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners hear from you in about a minute's time what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before this program is over.
01:57:51: Well, I think my message to the RLS people would be,
01:57:57: I want the Latter -day Saints to understand what it was that Jesus accomplished on the cross.
01:58:07: The Bible teaches that we were all sinners, that we're all sinners, and that the way
01:58:12: Jesus did is this, and because of God's mercy and love for us, he sent Jesus to the earth to provide a way for us unto him.
01:58:22: The death penalty for our sins was paid for by Jesus. He freely gave his life as payment for the sins of all mankind.
01:58:32: He died and rose again, opening the way to God and eternal life for all who would choose to follow him.
01:58:40: Only when we repent and accept Jesus' sacrifice for us can we be received into heaven.
01:58:47: There is no amount of good work that we can do that will bring us into the presence of God.
01:58:57: Amen. It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not from your works.
01:59:06: It is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. Amen. I want to make sure that our listeners have the website where they can order
01:59:16: Carol's book, Reorganized Latter -day Saint Church, Is It Christian? This is the book by Carol Hansen we have been discussing.
01:59:24: You can go to help4rlds .com, help4rlds .com,
01:59:30: and also to get any of Dr. Latane C. Scott's books, my co -host today, you can go to latayne .com,
01:59:37: L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com. I want to thank you, Carol Hansen. I want to thank you,
01:59:43: Dr. Latane C. Scott, for being my guest and co -host today. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater