Cultish: What is the United Pentecostal Church International?

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Welcome ladies and gentlemen back to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

00:05

Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here and with me as always is Andrew Songkran the super sleuth of the show

00:12

Just got off of work and you're in the studio with us today. How are you doing, man? You excited about today's episode? I'm doing better than I deserve and I am super stoked.

00:19

The super sleuth is super stoked for this episode today. Awesome. Awesome And so I'm super pumped because ever since we've launched cultish

00:28

We have been getting messages of when are we going to talk about? One is Pentecostals or one is apostolics and there's just there's different Labels and different branches in which and how they're labeled but we have two people with us today that are very qualified On the subject we have us with us today

00:45

Jeff Sully and editor James Levesque. How are you guys doing today? Doing good yourself doing very very well.

00:53

So if you could both introduce yourselves Andrew I could you just tell everyone a little bit about yourself you came out of the movement and just just tell them a little about yourself and why you might be someone to be considered a

01:07

Somewhat of an authority on the subject that we're speaking about Yes, certainly. So I was born and raised in the

01:14

UPCI United Pentecostal Church International. I'm fifth generation started with my great -grandmother in tent revivals near Ottawa, Canada and So I went off to seminary

01:26

I'm a seminary graduate of a UPC seminary here in Canada on the East Coast I was also a licensed minister for the

01:33

UPCI and served as a youth pastor here at a local church from that point on Through the workings of God that are greater than my own

01:43

He convicted me and changed my life and changed my outlook and now I'm a church planter 1689

01:50

Reformed Baptist confessional Married and I'm expecting my first child in January Wow.

01:58

God, that's all congratulations, man, Jeff Sully, can you just tell us just a little about yourself?

02:04

For sure. My name is Jeff. I within my fourth generation UPCI Adira I was born essentially into the mission field.

02:17

My first memories are from living in Nigeria a Lot of time traveling around the u .s.

02:23

Basically visiting other UPC churches in fundraising Ended up in France for a year from the language school

02:31

We lived in Ivory Coast for a few months four years between Burkina Faso and Niger in West Africa Hmm wound up in New Brunswick, Canada Became a not longer a missionary kid, but a pastor's kid there

02:46

Wound up in Winnipeg through work where I met my wife we married

02:51

We've had two sons and our third is on the way in December. Mm -hmm and Once my children came along.

02:59

I realized I need to be sure of everything I need to teach and raise these children according to the

03:06

Bible and Suddenly the arguments and the points that were being made every week by week just weren't adding up for me so I started going back to scripture back to scripture back to scripture spending lots of time in prayer and in the word and Found out that things were not lining up to God's Word.

03:25

Hmm so now we are attending a local church here associated with the evangelical covenant community, but Definitely came through the reforms track on that.

03:40

Well as well. Okay. Okay. Excellent So what I'm just curious about we would just want to jump right into the content

03:46

So as I mentioned with you guys just right before we started recording And both

03:51

Andrew and I whenever we taught see a movement. We always are fascinated. Okay, we always want to reverse engineer it

03:58

Okay, where did this begin? How did this start? Where does it all come from? And I think I mentioned to you our premier episode we did ground zero

04:05

Jonestown We both were just genuinely curious about okay, where did this how did this how did it get here?

04:12

And so we the some of there's this hundred -year timeline that goes way way back If you get you want to check out those first premier episodes definitely check them out but if you guys could just Let's turn on let's turn on our history clock turn on the history clock clock turn back the clock

04:27

So with this whole movement like where with the United Pentecostal Church International Where does this all where's like round zero?

04:36

Where does it all begin historically wise? Well, as far as a UPC is considered it was first the

04:43

United Pentecostal Church It was an amalgamation of the Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ and the

04:49

UPC Formally UPCI and then moving into Canada their formation was around the mid 1940s,

04:57

I believe 1945 1946 was the summation of some of their general conferences where they started actually penning

05:04

Articles of their faith and their doctrines and has setting things in stone, but really the movement starts in the year 1901 and Topeka Kansas Wow, that's and so with when it comes to Kansas So who like who are the major players that got that movement going in,

05:21

Kansas? Charles F Parham Yeah, he had established a

05:29

Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas Rented in an abandoned mansion

05:36

He the story goes that he had given his class mostly

05:42

Coming out of the Methodist movement young students people seeking God's Word He'd given them an assignment to find out.

05:49

What was the biblical evidence for the experience of the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Hmm. Apparently that was their winter break assignment on New Year's Eve There they were having a prayer meeting they were established they'd established already that the

06:07

Sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost was speaking in tongues so ended up in a prayer meeting on New Year's Eve of 1900 and the

06:19

Account goes that of just before midnight. Well around 1030 p .m. One of the young ladies that was there asked that Charles Parham would lay hands on her to receive the

06:29

Holy Spirit He was hesitant because he said that he hadn't had the experience himself, but humbly did it in the name of Jesus?

06:38

put his hands on her head and prayed and According to Parham she began speaking in the

06:44

Chinese language and was unable to speak English for three days So that's

06:50

I'm just I'm just blown away by this So so this so this experience happens and like with a lot of these movements, it's usually some sort of Encounter like with the supernatural and that on level would get it seemed like it would give it legitimacy

07:05

And so with this initially with that to be into Topeka, Kansas with this Bethel Bible School There's also

07:12

I'm seeing in the summary. We talked about the people are generally curious about this I know it's the very beginning the

07:19

Azusa Street Revival Can you can you tell us about that and give us these because if you look here,

07:25

I've heard it in passing But a lot of people don't know about it, but explain what this is all about and how that's connected to this initial

07:34

Experience and begin in beginning its origins in Topeka, Kansas with Bethel Bible School. Yeah for sure

07:40

So so as Charles Parham is is speaking this message More and more of his students are starting to ask for those that received this outpouring this gift to them this outward sign this visible

07:55

Manifestation the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of course this raised a ruckus in the religious community surrounding them

08:03

And so pastors and laymen alike and their families would come to see what this new

08:08

Phenomena was and if this really was what would later be coined the apostolic renewal

08:15

Was happening and so Along comes a gentleman named William Seymour.

08:20

He was blind in one eye and he was the son of a slave He came and actually decided to start attending some of the classes under Charles Parham to learn about this and to learn about the theology and doctrine being taught and William Seymour actually was a part of the the

08:37

African Methodist Church at this point Because of the segregation of the

08:43

South at this point He was not actually permitted to sit in the same classroom as the white attendees he had to listen outside the door and write on his own paper and writing utensil the teachings of Parham From this he was so moved and eventually after experiencing himself.

09:04

I'm sorry No, he hadn't experienced it yet himself but he was so moved by it and the

09:09

Genuity of it that he went to a church that he had accepted the pastorate of in,

09:16

California and Started teaching that they had to experience this that this was biblically proven

09:24

They had to experience it and the church kicked him out They closed the doors and changed the locks and told him to get lost.

09:32

Oh, wow. He was talking utter nonsense And so from here he proceeds to get connected with another movement coming from those teachings outside just outside the city at this house and there was they drew such huge crowds and they were in such a

09:49

Trance and so vibrant in their outward worship that they actually crashed the front porch of this poor lady's house

09:57

They came they caved it right in And from there he Decided that it was time to get a building and he actually rented an abandoned warehouse

10:06

That was also used to hold horses as a stable on 312 Azusa Street so at 312

10:13

Azusa Street William Seymour the African American leader of what was called the burgeoning

10:20

Pentecostal group And what others would pen as the concerning strange new doctrine of speaking tongues was portrayed here

10:29

Some of the earliest preachers to stand with Seymour was men like Glenn a cook who was conducting holiness tent meetings at 7th and Spring Street in Los Angeles Cook was deeply impressed by Seymour's humility and patience and actually began attending those

10:45

Pentecostal meetings He eventually apologized to brother Seymour for his hard sayings and spent five weeks in heartfelt repentance.

10:52

So Originally cook had come against Seymour While holding his own holiness revival tent meetings

11:00

And had spoken harsh things against the man came to the meetings Perceived it to be true what he was speaking and then actually apologized and united his

11:11

Methodist holiness movement with The Pentecostal meetings happening at Azusa Street now

11:17

Azusa Street received good and bad criticism I It was praised by people kind of looking for that extra experience that extra spiritualism the time of Christianity But it was very very harshly slapped down from theologians and doctors and pastors of other denominations

11:40

They actually threw out a lot of what was happening as you the street because it was too incredible there was reports of levitation there was reports of long times of babbling of tongues

11:54

There was long type bouts of fits where people would rolled around on the dirt floors and thrash about And they perceived this to just be the outpouring of the

12:05

Holy Spirit as what happened on the day of Pentecost Seymour himself up until this point actually hadn't received experience himself and did several

12:16

Several moments later. He did he did receive the experience himself and then began teaching it even all the more strong Hey, so I have a question um, we know how like you're going through this history and so we can see now how

12:29

Typical Orthodox churches in that time. We're looking at them kind of confused and scared What was

12:34

Seymour's position against the churches that weren't experiencing these gifts? Did he like almost anathematized them because they're not experiencing the

12:41

Holy Ghost in this way of like a revival of an apostolic movement? What was his view on the other churches?

12:47

No, he The the original movement was not to separate people from their home denominations

12:54

They believed it was a renewal for the church entire the church Catholic Okay that that God was calling all of his children back to the initial promise given to the first church and So they were sending the people that would come from meetings back to their churches

13:11

To teach this so that all the congregations could receive the same experience that they did.

13:17

Mm -hmm But it would be almost in a sense where there's this It well, I see this commonality where there's there's a lost knowledge that people something that people had in the first century but now we don't have so it would seem to me like even with him not like looking down of Necessarily towards other denominations who weren't part of the revival

13:37

There was an aspect though of like have and have nots. Would that be would that be a correct assessment? it

13:44

It's really odd. I I've never actually heard that discussed

13:50

It at the time all all that's really taught about it in the churches. Is that this was bringing?

13:58

emissaries visitors from other churches Renewing the experience of acts to the day of Pentecost and going back and sharing that with other churches

14:07

Now that that being said Parham himself when he eventually arrived

14:15

Sorry, you know what that's actually people gonna love we love kids man. Hey children are blessing from the Lord.

14:21

So amen. Yeah craft. Yeah parham eventually visited

14:27

Azusa in October 1906 and Couldn't believe what was happening When when he showed up and saw the sheer

14:40

Craziness and the the ecstaticism the the rolling around the barking

14:47

The babbling he actually denounced Azusa at that. Yeah Which led to see more

14:58

Denouncing parham as the leader of This revival and that it was only the Holy Ghost now who was leading the

15:05

Azusa Street mission Wow Okay, hmm and Glen a cook himself the man who had opposed

15:11

Seymour initially Said these words that I felt I was really lost unless I received the

15:17

Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues I would miss it all when I just about given up all hope the

15:22

Holy Ghost fell on me as I lay in bed at Home, I seemed to be in a trance for about 24 hours and the next day in the meeting.

15:29

I began to to speak in tongues whoa, hmm So with all so with all this going on with now the

15:38

Azusa Street revival and and all this going on We're like that's pretty much was there was this besides like having the

15:45

Holy Spirit was there was the Bible taught or was there what other like theology was emphasized asides from receiving the

15:53

Holy Spirit or Could you even describe for us aside from the chaotic mean? Well, it was many people jumping out up and down barking rolling around like what else was taught within The services or at this at this warehouse, like what else was like, what did it look like?

16:09

It is actually noted that William Seymour for the most part Sorry, most part wouldn't

16:15

He wouldn't teach a whole lot that he believed that the Holy Spirit would direct his heart to teach on certain subjects and not and There's actually recorded excerpts about him speaking for 15 minutes and then burying his head in a

16:32

Pulpit that he made from two fruit crates and then just to start praying would leave the message hanging

16:37

Until the he believed the Holy Spirit would fall and direct them into the the next moment

16:44

So like a long extended pause just like intermission. Yeah Yeah, like just just intermittent between the speaking and that he would speak for some time and then they would stop and they pray for Hours, sometimes days on end with mixed with fasting as well

17:01

Wow, so there's definitely I mean, I'm always fascinated by just the cultish characteristics of Just groupthink or undue influence when you're part of a group and it's like well if I'm experiencing this

17:16

There's something wrong with me but with with all these different behaviors,

17:21

I mean I mean obviously we could talk about the spiritual aspects But like what the psychology of like what's going on?

17:28

It was someone like in the 1900s. Like what would you say is? What it was will be like key influences from your perspective of that type of behavior because I mean that it obviously wasn't the normative as you were saying people would just jump in and start conducting this behavior once they went to these meetings, but What would that be like well, yeah,

17:51

I mean there's it's hard to kind of answer that question Yeah, none of us were there

17:58

It's even from someone myself who has grown up staunchly in it. Yeah it's hard to to pinpoint exactly where that specific type of mindset that that was okay, and that was acceptable and that was of The spirit and not of emotionalism and not of man

18:17

I mean they had never experienced something like that before and it's so made an impression upon them that I Think they truly and authentically believed that it was a fullness of revelation of the salvational experience

18:32

You know given to the Christian by God that it was a true apostolic renewal

18:38

These churches they were still staunch and a lot of their Orthodox beliefs the

18:44

Methodist Episcopalians the Presbyterians the Baptist all these The Wesleyans these men and women who came alongside this movement were still staunch in their beliefs for quite a few years leading up to some of the major cultural shifts within the movement itself that we'll probably get to a little bit later, but You know, they they sat on wooden planks on logs on dirty floors and White people sat with black people sat with Mexicans it was unheard of it was revolutionary it was

19:20

Kind of putting an end to stigmas. And so there was some good things culturally in the world that were coming out of it, but There was no true

19:31

Doctrine established or leading until years years afterwards. Mm -hmm. So let me ask you this

19:37

If we want transitions that you mentioned like doctrine because I think with any behavior or Even like this the sociology or the psychology behind like these different movements

19:47

It always precede the behavior the theology and dictates behaviors the cart. You can't have the cart before the horse

19:53

But what would you say? Was what was like this? What was the theology that came out of this revival and what did that turn into because I think when we're yeah

20:03

I think when we were initially talking you're talking about Some private revelations which prior to that people had or like Orthodox Christian Trinitarian views, but that changed his private revelation

20:16

Was that right afterwards or kind of talk about what was the ripple effect of of the

20:21

Azusa Street revival? well, I'll talk a little bit and I'll turn it over to Jeff, but it sprung into to pastors basically taking this message and just dispersing across North America and Actually into Australia into Europe down into South America and and spreading this newfound

20:47

Revealed a message of renewal of the apostolic experience of the day of Pentecost so much so that most these ministers were kicked out and Rejected by their their host denominations for preaching this especially for not bringing it to their eldership and to their ministers first Jeff did you want to speak on it?

21:12

Um Sure. Well, the the Azusa revival kind of came to an end around 1908

21:19

And like Andrew said all these ministers that were visiting the lay people that were visiting were taking this back to their home churches

21:26

They were holding revival camp meetings trying to emulate the great revivals that had happened earlier

21:34

So you see this very Widespread movement with a lot of zeal a lot of energy with this exciting revelation

21:45

Taking this to anyone they can tell it to. Mm -hmm. So really it grew out of the camp meetings more than anything else, um, and then in 1913

21:59

We we actually moved to Canada There was a Canadian preacher re

22:04

McAllister Moving along in the same vein as Parham as Seymour Dwelling in the book of Acts almost to the exclusivity of most of the rest of Scripture Wow We get came to the realization that Well his realization that the

22:22

Apostles according to his view of Acts didn't employ the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28 19

22:31

But as based in Acts 238 Baptized in the name of the

22:37

Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins hmm, so he first preached that in April 1913 and The that sermon was described as essentially the shot heard throughout

22:52

Christendom On the oneness side. Mm -hmm Yeah, it was it was actually coined

22:59

Frank Ewert that will that comes up several times He said the shot has been fired and its sound was destined to be heard around the world as Christendom Would soon be shaken by this new doctrine

23:12

Wow, so so so essentially he preached this sermon It was almost kind of like Jesus name only right mixed in with this oneness movement

23:22

Just from this one sermon. Is that shot? That was heard on Christie the oneness movement didn't even exist yet, right?

23:28

Right oneness Pentecostals weren't weren't even existence yet, right? this was a Trinitarian pastor saying

23:33

I don't think our baptismal formula is as Adherent to the scripture as I believe it should be.

23:40

Hmm And so when he when he was selected to come and speak at these minister, you know these meetings

23:46

He was brought by fellow ministers who knew him as a staunch Trinitarian They brought him to speak on baptism, so basically what's happening is they were at this can't mean they were trying to establish some sort of ground standard of doctrinal belief systems a theological grounding

24:06

Because they were experiencing people going every which way But Center and we're just giving themselves over to Multiple doctrines and beliefs and challenging everything that they had ever believed because of this

24:21

And so they were trying to set some sort of ground foundation Theologically and so when he preached this message

24:30

There was two men in it. Sorry. There was three men in attendance that become very very prominent and important over the next about 20 -30 years

24:39

And their names are Frank Ewert we have Cook who who was there with Was who was there with Seymour and then you also have

24:54

Sorry you have GT Heywood and GT Heywood was there

25:01

It was an interesting thing because all these men were staunch Trinitarians And when they heard this message it changed

25:12

Their perspective on the actual Godhead to the point that Ewert and Cook Started writing transcripts to one another and meeting one another to discuss it to the point that they went to GT Heywood who was a minister in the

25:31

Pentecostal renewal and Work trying to convince him of the oneness of God Mm -hmm and GT Heywood actually rejected them for a long time in the beginning.

25:43

He refused to accept it even Another gentleman who was in the

25:49

Pentecostal movement wrote a letter to him saying, please Please do not be convinced of this oneness modalist doctrine.

25:58

That's being preached to you I know these men mean well, but they are mistaken and I don't want you to fall into biblical error on your quest for truth

26:08

And he wrote back saying I'm sorry old friend. It is far too late for I have already believed and been rebaptized

26:17

Wow That's incredible. Can I ask you if you guys could do us a favor and I I would want to do it

26:24

But I just feel like it's better since you guys came out of this movement It's always it's always just really important to define terms

26:30

We have a really broad audience and we even have a lot of people who listen in who aren't even Christians and so with the theology is always important to get a precedence the behavior and Also, Walter Martin said that the cults are the unpaid bills of the church

26:45

So a lot of these movements came out of the church like you're setting the example But could you just define for the audience to find terms to find?

26:53

Trinitarianism, but then define just theologically oneness just so people understand that the difference between the two just very just very briefly

27:02

Go for it Well Classic trinity

27:09

Trinitarianism is the held belief of the church Although maybe not called and defined specifically as Trinitarianism Has been upheld by the historical classical church since its foundation

27:23

I believe that there is one monotheistic God Who is self -sufficient?

27:29

Self -contained needs not creation to establish himself or make himself, but we move and breathe and live and have our being in him and that he is

27:42

One Being of one substance and one existence But three persons and not three persons as in three small little

27:51

G gods that come together Unified in their actions towards man That's actually try theism and a lot of oneness people believe

28:00

Wrongly about Trinitarians that they believe in try theism that they believe there's multiple gods that become like one super God But that's not

28:08

Trinitarianism Trinitarian is three separate persons the Father's Son the

28:13

Holy Spirit, but one God one essence one being the One is

28:18

Pentecostals Would it tell you that yes there there is one God but you

28:24

Trinitarians don't believe there's one God You believe there's three gods. We only believe there's one God. His name is

28:30

Jesus and That God as Father Son the Holy Spirit Exists existed always but is not co -existent or co -eternal that the

28:43

Father took on flesh and became the Son and That when it meant that the

28:49

Son was going to send the comforter to us the Holy Spirit That it was just the

28:54

Spirit of Jesus coming back to dwell in us and so there's this conflagration of Father Son and Spirit to mean

29:01

Yes, the one being but it's it's so Trying to make it so it's easy for people that may not have

29:11

An understanding either of the oneness movement or of biblical Trinitarianism done. Yeah to comprehend how

29:18

How this differs because a lot of it could sound similar, but the verbiage is very very different Yeah, for sure.

29:26

Okay That here is a statement From the quote apostolic study

29:34

Bible published by the UPCI just a few years ago 2014 God has revealed himself as father as the creator as the source of all existence and life and in parental relationship to humanity

29:49

He has revealed himself in the Son God coming in human identity He has also revealed himself as the

29:56

Holy Spirit in spiritual presence and action Another divine title is the word which describes

30:03

God in self revelation The word is God himself Particularly his character or mind as ultimately revealed in flesh

30:13

Before his incarnation we can describe the one God as father word or spirit the roles of Father Son and Holy Spirit are necessary to God's plan of redemption for fallen humans and There's paragraphs more there, but that I hope that gets a good idea

30:33

Right right away we jump away from the language of persons and essence into the language of roles

30:40

Okay modes. Yes. Yes, and that that's just a very good general Synopsis and foundation and if you guys need to maybe back up the little 15 second mark mark and like listen to this again

30:52

Maybe once or twice just to understand that basic foundation That's totally fine. And we might even talk more about this as we unpack this whole thing.

30:59

So now that we have a basic understanding of Defining our terms.

31:05

So there's there's this experience where someone now believes that he's been rebaptized into this new knowledge of who

31:13

God is and Now there's a sudden change going on like where does it go from here?

31:19

So where does it go from here? After what you were talking about previously So it becomes really an intra

31:26

Proselytization of current believers in Christ because now it's it's not acceptable to be baptized according to Matthew 28 19 the the baptism in the name of the

31:39

Father in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit is not adequate to save That it must be the singular name of Jesus Most often with the asphyxiation of the title of Lord before it in order for you to truly receive the renewing of self the salvational experience

32:02

And what's their evidence of having the Holy Ghost? So what what is that evidence of receiving that spirit to them to say that this is actually the correct baptism that this has happened what what is taught is that the initial evidence of receiving the

32:16

Holy Ghost is Speaking in other tongues You should also Lelia Glossolalia.

32:23

Yes Which actually was one of Parham's Judgments against Azusa because he believed that The language is gifted by the

32:35

Holy Spirit would be human languages. So Xeno glossolalia instead of hmm Angelic or unknown languages apart

32:43

Parham also ascribed that the sinner was saved by grace through faith and not of works of self and that the gifting of the

32:51

Holy Spirit was a gift of the Spirit to Believers that some should all should seek it but that some would receive it for the appointment of its proper usage in Scripture and so Charles Parham was was not seeking some sort of Superficial Extraordinary addition to the

33:12

Word of God. He was seeking to experience that which the Apostles were gifted in the first church and so he was looking for something that would come alongside the already well -established doctrines of Christianity not something that would ultimately lead to The presumption of those doctrines to be false and new doctrines to be written in place of yeah

33:32

So he had good. I mean he had good intentions for sure is what you're saying He had a lot of dissatisfaction actually with the the

33:40

Wesleyan holiness movement of the last century and thought that their idea of st.

33:46

Perfect sanctification wasn't Basically fulfillment of Scripture that it wasn't happening that there must be some other evidence that a person was actually saved

33:57

Which led him to look through to lead his class through acts. Hmm Yeah, so there's just this emphasis like I said in one book over the other rather than the entirety of all 66 books chapter by chapter verse by verse not allowing

34:12

Really, it's almost like you're almost in the sense where I remember growing up in a Mormon high school And they would have these scripture mastery cards

34:19

But each individual card was one verse in particular like out of an entire chapter out of an entire book

34:26

Not so they're taught to memorize these little verses here and there So you look like something and we could talk about this too because I've had some brief interactions with people who were one is

34:35

Pentecostals where they're looking at like acts 238 Repent and be baptized you for the remission of sins

34:41

You shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and and obviously understand the conclusions They could come to and how you'd go with that but yeah, definitely

34:49

I would say I could definitely see how just focusing in on the book of Acts would Just an emphasis on that and I look at the in the entirety of the of the of the whole

34:59

Bible It could definitely lead to a lot of misinterpretation a lot of misunderstanding Andrew, what do you want to jump in?

35:05

Yeah, so now that this doctrinal shift has occurred we have These people how do they view now?

35:12

People that were Trinitarians, right? And when do they say that the church may have lost the way and that there's restoration needs to occur

35:21

So, so how did that work? How did they how do they justify saying? well The church needs to be restored now and when do they say it actually fell away to more?

35:31

Pagan influences for example, so could you could you could you explain that a little bit? Yeah, they

35:37

They believe that the church initially started falling away. Basically a couple hundred years after the last

35:43

Apostle died. Mm -hmm They reject most of Christendom's historical findings and movements and the canons and the meetings

35:57

The councils they don't reject that they actually happened. They reject its influence and importance on Christianity as a whole in that they believe that Trinitarian dogma and Trinitarian Verbiage began really with the

36:16

Council of Nicaea and that's a common argument. You'll hear from their debaters oh, yes, you didn't believe in a Trinity until a

36:21

Council of Nicaea agreed upon it because of paganism coming into their own Catholic Church and Corrupting it and its teachers and ministers wanting to make it easier for numerous converts to come in and accept their pantheon of gods mixed with God Mm -hmm

36:39

Yeah, but we ever want me but then again if you study actual church history, you'd understand the Council of Nicaea was the coming out

36:46

Against false teaching. This is a public declaration what we've already believed and one of the best examples

36:53

I tried to give someone who is using not someone who is from your background, but Just someone who is not a believer.

36:59

I was witnessing to them They brought the Council Nicaea and I basically tried to do the best metaphor I could think of and basically

37:05

I said imagine you've said You got a girlfriend, right? Let's just say you two are in a relationship and you're you have made a

37:11

Facebook official But it's like you guys have totally agreed. This is out there But all of a sudden there's other guys who start trying to ask your girl out and you're like, you know

37:20

I need to give him a hint that you know what? This is official. So you become Facebook official, right? So it's not that they're the relationship started

37:29

The relationship started when you became Facebook official. It had already been established. It was just a public declaration

37:34

So that's I know that's like the most modern 2019 layman's way I would say of like defining it we could go into that more but talk about Just continue to talk about this whole history, man.

37:46

I'm just I am just so fascinated I feel like I'm just I am the flawed we are both flies in the wall here because this this is continuing to evolve

37:54

So, where does it go after this what you're talking about? So since Oh In there right now the the book on oneness theology is was published by David K Bernard, it's called the oneness of God.

38:11

Yes in chapter 10 Jumping right to where we're discussing the most prominent

38:17

Post -apostolic writers. He says were Clement of Rome Polycarp Ignatius and Hermas He says

38:25

Irenaeus a prominent Christian leader who died around 8200 had an intensely Christocentric theology and a firm belief that Jesus was

38:33

God manifested in flesh He held that the Logos which became incarnate in Jesus Christ was the mind of God and was the father himself

38:43

That is his claim Hmm of your what your knee is taught Wow Yeah, and so you have you have at this point in in about the early 1900 right just before 1920 you have

38:59

Trinitarian Pentecostals and oneness Pentecostals actually coexisting and quite amicably too

39:05

Because the ones who were baptizing in the name of Jesus were still adhering for the most part to Trinitarian doctrine, right?

39:13

And only a few at a time we're starting to convert over to the oneness view But they were still they were still coexisting

39:22

But then the shifting started to happen the doctrine of the one that started to be written down and recorded and discussed and fleshed out and This is where it was seen as as an issue

39:33

We go to the first major established Denomination within the

39:38

Pentecostal movement is the assemblies of God in United States America and just real quickly just time wise

39:45

We started 1901 you said it was around what year did the Azusa Street Revival take place?

39:52

1906 to 1908. Okay. Yeah, that's so you have 1906 to 1908

39:57

So now we're at a time where we're talking about the assemblies of God and all these things are coming on So what time timeline eyes where where are we right now with the founding of this church that we're discussing?

40:07

so McAllister preaches famous message about baptism in Jesus name in 1914 and Then they started these the

40:14

Pentecostal Church just started grouping together in the 20s And the assemblies of God, I believe

40:20

I don't have the exact take in front of me but it was somewhere close within that time period because what was happening was the assemblies of God hadn't actually reached into Canada yet and so Pentecostals that had moved into Canada or come back from visiting these were tent revivals started preaching this message and created the

40:37

PAOC or Pentecostal Assemblies of Christ in Canada, which was almost a direct word for word carbon copy of the assemblies of God So this is taking place in the

40:49

United States and in Canada so One question I have because there's always major Historical events that always coincide along these these movements when you start studying the ins and outs of them

41:01

So two things come to mind in the early 20s You have the roaring 20s where the economy was doing really good

41:07

And then you have the Great Depression with just that huge economic shift

41:12

I mean a lot of times people start losing the material things so maybe people are starting to look towards more spiritual things and it's time because it's a time of desperation versus a time of abundance

41:23

With everything that happened in the Great Depression And I'm just saying someone who's an American history buff.

41:28

Did that affect this? Movement because it seems to be right around the same timeline that we're discussing

41:35

Greatly, so it did affect it. It's actually Mentioned I believe if I have my sight correctly

41:42

If I don't please forgive me, but in the book the life and writings of elder

41:47

GT Heywood It talks a little bit about the history and then about his life But it talks about the

41:53

Great Depression and it talks about how people who had lost everything were flocking to this message that the rich churches were starting to filled with people above the median wage of income that had secure funds were starting to reject the poor and Starting to reject the downtrodden and so these churches had their doors open to all and anyone that would come and so they flocked in droves to Pentecostal message and the tent revivals.

42:23

Mm -hmm Wow, that's incredible. Okay, so assemblies of God Jumping back to that tell us about how that was a formated how that was formulated and and how did that affect the progression of this movement well, the

42:36

Assemblies of God at the time were a joining of ministers throughout this new

42:43

Pentecostal movement now as soon as we get to 1916 we have the second annual conference of the

42:52

Assemblies of God and The general they basically took a vote to become a

42:59

Orthodox Trinitarian Fellowship and Voted out 156 ministers by rejecting the oneness doctrine

43:09

So two years into their existence. Mm -hmm by by 1917 those ministers formed the

43:16

General Assembly of Apostolic Assemblies Mm -hmm Which only lasted another year was dissolved in 1918 and then in 1919

43:27

They joined ranks with a another oneness group called the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World oneness

43:35

Which we actually still see in existence today hmm and from there

43:45

By the time we get to 1925 the National Convention of the

43:53

PAOW in Chicago We actually fought start seeing racial tension come back into the movement as opposed to the

44:00

Azusa Worshipping side by side there was frustration from Basically Jim Crow in the southern states that wouldn't allow black and white

44:13

People to worship together and from attending the conventions together So Essentially the white ministers resigned from the organization

44:24

The PAOW reorganized with a new for Episcopal form of government

44:32

Gigi Haywood was elected the first bishop and then went after in 1925 in February You had the

44:40

Pentecostal Ministerial Alliance was founded in October Emmanuel's Church in Jesus Christ was founded and then and also in February the

44:49

Apostolic Churches of Jesus Christ Were also founded so we had three Essentially all white organizations formed through all this turmoil and you'll see the

45:01

Apostolic the Apostolic Assemblies of Jesus Christ They're their group actually ended up amalgamating with the the early formation of the

45:09

United Pentecostal Church in its infancy to come together and bolster their ranks

45:16

Right, so they're just using a lots a lot of their growth came out of all these different issues as far as Racial tensions and such.

45:25

Yeah, actually in GT Haywood's book the life and writings of it said he was grief grief really stricken

45:31

By what was happening? In the world around him because of how their movement started how no one considered

45:41

Income or skin color or birthright to be anything of any effect on the

45:46

Christian life and that Brothers and sisters could worship freely together in this wonderful Apostolic renewal and then just a handful years later

45:56

While they're working striving together they see Jim Crow law come into effect and ultimately divide the movement and create such tension between the movement that they felt they had to split off and create their own

46:08

Denomination to safeguard people of color Yeah, what you're saying makes complete sense.

46:13

I mean, I go back to the research that we did initially with the history and origins of Jim Jones with Because he grew up in a time where there's a lot of racial segregation

46:25

And that's something that he saw when he grew up in Indiana And he he was very involved and even when he was a child when

46:31

Jim Jones was a child He would go around to all these different churches because he had a very interesting family background just to kind of check out what was

46:39

What was around one of the things that one of the movements that he got involved in which really influenced a lot of?

46:46

How we saw like but different how to become in a person of influence was a lot of these revival meetings

46:52

Including one this happens including groups that were on their statement of faith were oneness

46:58

Now it's in what I believe their book the book that's out there called the road to Jonestown So me and also there's just so much going on in Indiana growing up and that really affected a lot of what?

47:09

Really happened if the in the entirety of that story and again if you guys want to check that out If they check out through Jones colored glasses, but I'm just curious because all these things are happening about and I gotta

47:21

Find out about his how he was related to this Can you talk so Indiana the one person that you were talking about with in relation to This whole movement and people messaged us before if we're gonna do a whole episode on him

47:38

We're just we're just understanding the basics of who he is who he is and who he was and what he believed

47:44

But William Branham, that's been a name. That's fascinated me Just understanding who he was in his whole history

47:52

Can you just talk a little bit about who he was what he believed and what's his what's his relationship to?

47:59

To this whole movement because you're the guys you are the ones who brought this up to me in our Preliminary research.

48:05

Can you tell us a little bit about him? So yeah, William Branham's. Uh, he's an interesting character.

48:12

I don't have an in -depth Pamphlet detailing everything about his life in front of me

48:20

He became a fairly new name to me. Maybe about six seven years ago.

48:26

Hmm. I discovered him He's not widely taught or regarded in In the the one this apostolic movement whatsoever

48:35

I remember having 10 -minute discussion about him in the Bible College About if you encounter anybody who says they're a

48:44

Brahmanite disregard anything they have to say and These are why the reasons why and essentially was they believed in serpent seed doctrine

48:53

Which for those who are unfamiliar with serpent seed doctrine? It is a twisting of the story of Genesis of Adam and Eve and their fall into sin essentially, they believe that when it talks about Eve eating from the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that actually means that the serpent beguiled her and laid with her and actually procreated the first son with her which became

49:22

Cain and then the second son Abel between Adam and Eve who was killed by Cain and Then the mark upon Cain's skin his forehead that all men would know who he was

49:36

Was actually that they turned his skin black and that's how we get the african -american people or I guess the african people and so it was literally a deep -seated racist belief system tied in with a misrepresentation of the

49:54

Historical account of Adam and Eve and the fall into the initial sin of mankind They also believed in intra

50:02

Prostitution so they believed they would win the mass of their a religious population from going to other churches and actively trying to destroy disrupt and usurp the ministers of those churches and When people over to this message, which they believed was the newest and greatest and last revelation in the

50:26

Dispensationalism of the Church Age and that William Branham was the great and last prophet sent by Christ to us to guide us into truth

50:34

Before the soon coming rapture of our King It's like we've ever heard that before ever with any any particular movement

50:44

I just I mean I always get fascinated because there's an aspect where it's it's unique and Different because it's in a different culture in a different particular time, but there always seems to be that that same that same commonality and again, you're talking about just different branch offs of and the again

51:01

These are loose offshoots and schisms of the whole movement and there's one thing I saw in the study guide

51:07

And we can we could probably flush this out a whole lot more is snake hand snake handlers, can you just tell us what do you know about that and Like what's its relation?

51:18

How's an offshoot? Or where did it just tell us what you know about that and any of its relation to? Why you guys brought that up in our preliminary research as far as offshoots and schisms of this movement

51:29

It's a lot like the Branham ism it There was a flash in the pan and then a lot of the majority of the movements started pushing it away to the very far

51:40

Corners very quickly So it's you still get that association with Chairs Charismatics of the snake handling but in the

51:50

UPC I it was rejected very early on That said when a lot of people go to a

51:58

Pentecostal service because of something they've heard because of the intense glossolalia the intense zeal of a worship service

52:09

The like the rumor the Association just keeps living on it won't die. Mm -hmm there there is a couple churches that still exist in that frame of mind, but they're deep within the

52:18

Appalachian Mountains and They really have no bearing or effect or any say within the Pentecostal movement as a whole

52:25

I'm the same with the Brahma mites. There is a few churches that still exist There's some out east.

52:31

There's some in central and western Canada, and I know they're they're sprinkled throughout America as well But they were quickly rejected.

52:38

He brought him himself was a flip -flopper He came in as a Trinitarian Pentecostal then proclaimed the oneness

52:45

Denver claimed the Trinity and never claimed the oneness again before his death He couldn't really make up his mind and he really just spoke

52:56

Towards the people of what they wanted to hear depending on what kind of assembly he was speaking to at the time, right?

53:02

Yeah, and then yeah, cuz I I've just heard him loosely mentioned by different prominent Even modern -day preachers that are in in the charismatic movement again

53:11

I'm kind of new to understanding all of that But I think you had shared a video and I saw it too a lot of a lot of very even popular preachers like Benny Hinn for example

53:21

He talked very highly of William Brannan that he had the special he had the super special anointing and that he was able to access

53:29

Like to me I think you're saying he was saying something to the extent he was able to access dimensions That no one else could like he had he had something that no one else had he had what they called the forbidden not forbidden, but a veiled knowledge and So he could look at a person and tell you your every gravest sin and call you to repentance

53:48

He practiced it often He practiced almost like a fortune teller a mystic or a

53:54

Gnostic would He there's pictures of him online where there's camera flashes that have happened, but they they look like halos

54:03

And if you study pictures from that time period it was actually a very common event to happen with multiple sources of lightning and the old

54:10

Flash pans and how they used to work But there because it looks like a halo behind him.

54:15

It's almost Immortalized him in the eyes of those that follow his teachings still to this day

54:23

Even my father -in -law believes a lot of his teachings And so that was a bit of a shocker to me when

54:29

I heard about it And that was the main reason why I looked him up and studied him They they worship his teachings nearly on par with the teachings of Christ they they've almost solidified a lot of his doctrines as Being the last kind of revelatory word or insight to the

54:47

Word of God. Mm -hmm Yeah Yeah, so overall in summary and I feel like you guys you probably have just barely scratched the surface as far as like the entirety

54:59

Of this history that be that be a correct assessment. It feels like it's almost There's there's a there's probably a whole lot more in depth though.

55:06

Would that be good? Would that be a correct assessment? There's a lot more but I feel as the vein we're going especially

55:13

Specifically addressing the UPCI because you talked about how you're gonna have an episode specifically dealing with William Brenham and the

55:20

Brenham ites. Yeah Really? That's kind of where his story ends for us and where the story of the

55:27

UPCI Begins to really take a foothold and when it spreads from North America To the entire world and becoming the massive force of oneness

55:37

Pentecostal ism that it is today Okay, so let's do this we we've had this is the really great introduction and I can even that just the

55:45

Eyes, like I when as soon as you mentioned William Branham like he's got it He's got to make it the initial sort of cameo appearance before we go in depth with them.

55:54

But this is What a fascinating introductory episode this has been just I'm just blown away.

56:00

So let's do this let's go ahead and wrap up part one and then we will jump into Part two of this history and then if you guys really enjoyed this episode

56:11

Go ahead and leave us a review on iTunes. Let us know what you thought You can also check out our newest our new website the cultish show .com

56:20

We also have a blog there where people are going to be contributing including our guests here today We end up working that out.

56:27

And also if you are interested in helping Further this ministering it out You can also there's an option there on the website to partner with us if that's something you want to do

56:37

So all that being said, thank you guys so much for listening in to this introductory

56:44

Episode on the historical foundations of the oneness movement I think you guys so much and we will talk to you.