Beth Moore and Christian Nationalism

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We're gonna talk today about the infamous, now infamous,

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Beth Moore tweet that went out ironically on a Sunday yesterday.

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It was kind of copycatted by a number of other progressive evangelicals and the long and short of it is it is a condemnation of Christian nationalism.

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Now it's it's interesting to me that this whole battle bubbled over on a Sunday, the day that generally

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Christians set aside to go to church, to rest, to not do the activities like work they do on the rest during the rest of the week.

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But there are many Christians working very hard on social media this past Sunday and you know maybe that's an appropriate thing

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I guess those who would want to rip it down and deconstruct Christianity from the inside you know maybe making this battle happen on a

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Sunday or you know really just getting irritated and I don't know just going back and forth on a

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Sunday is the day you want to do it. I'm not saying you can't tweet on a Sunday I'm gonna show you I did respond to a number of these things but it's just it's just weird to me

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I don't know it's just generally the weekend especially Sunday is that's when you're not engaged in those kinds of things you're with family you're at church that kind of stuff but uh you know and maybe some of these people were

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I don't know but it was certainly getting zesty let's just say on some social media platforms and it's an opportunity this is why

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I want to put this out today Monday because I really do think that this has been going on for a long time this accusation that if you're politically conservative maybe you supported

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Donald Trump you supported perhaps you voted for Romney you voted for McCain you voted for Bush voted for Republicans you're a

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Christian nationals I mean this accusation has been leveled I don't know how many times and I want to start to at least build the groundwork for how for dealing with this for understanding it because there's a lot of there's terms that are not being quite defined and so I want to to give you what

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I think is going on some definitions at least some understanding of these terms so that you can intelligently respond to your progressive friend when they accuse you of engaging in the idolatry of Christian nationalism whatever that is right so so all that to say

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I'm gonna be slight tangent here I'm gonna be pulling from a few things from the book social justice goes to church and for those who have not received your copy yet I just want to say the last orders the up till now the orders that have been placed and for those who are on patreon because all my patrons got this for free they have gone out today they'll the last of them so you should be receiving this in the next two weeks if you don't reach out to me but two weeks from today you should you should have a copy of social justice goes to church unless of course

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Christmas presents overwhelm the post office but um but you should if everything goes the way it ought to go everyone should be getting these before Christmas now if you order today if you still want that go to socialjusticegoestochurch .com

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and I should be able to get it out later this week and it should be able to still get there before Christmas I would think but it's a history of the new left the

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Christian progressive if you want to call them that who have influenced the current crop of social justice warriors in the church and I think it's it's been helpful to a lot of people in understanding where this came from and I hope this podcast will also be helpful just like hopefully the book is in understanding at least what we're dealing with and some of the terms that need to be defined and so let's start with talking about what happened and then we'll kind of reverse engineer this so we have this is the first thing

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I saw was not Beth Moore the first thing I saw was Denny Burke Denny Burke is a professor at the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and he had posted I'm here for the evangelicalism that isn't idolatrous

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Christian nationalism and that was at 155 a .m. on a

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Saturday night he posted this so I mean

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I was just like where is this coming from I think I know now and I'm gonna tell you but there there were a number of these and there's so many

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I'm sure I'm not getting even probably 5 % of all the tweets that are out there but I this one was from Kenneth Keith Lee he's a professor at the

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Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary sometimes an idol has to be called what it is and he referenced a piece by David French which we're not gonna go over but it's called the dangerous idolatry of Christian Trumpism and then

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Karen Swallow Pryor also now professor at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary referenced the

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David French article and quoted it it's time for conservative Christian leaders to shed any form of fear and to speak against conspiracies and against slander with the same boldness and the

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I guess this is a picture from it looks like inside a church it's just Christians I guess worshipping

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I don't know if they have MAGA hats I don't know if that's I don't know but that's all

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I can see from this little screenshot it's kind of hard to tell and then we have Beth Moore and this is this is the one that got all the traction this is when

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I went into Twitter and this is just ironic look at this so so the headline is four people stabbed in Washington DC amid clashes between Trump supporters and Antifa and then you have

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Beth Moore right under that trending politics Beth Moore and she says

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I do not believe there are days for men these are days for mincing words okay

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I mean that's good to hear because we're kind of sick of the the calculating the the we're against critical race theory but there is systemic racism in every

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American institution as Al Moore likes to say we're sick of that doublespeak right we want clarity so so kudos to Beth Moore for saying she's right about this

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I agree wholeheartedly these are not the days for mincing words of course Beth Moore and I are on opposite sides here I'm 63 and a half years old and a half

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I guess that's important I have never seen anything in these

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United States of America and I have to say here's the second thing I'm maybe I'm being too nice to Beth Moore but I appreciate that she said these

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United States of America that's actually archaic I don't know if she meant to say it that way but I don't

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I don't like saying the United States of America even though I do it actually is these United States there it's a federation of states that's how it should be so so Beth Moore promoting federalism but she says

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I have never seen anything in these United States of America I found more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the

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Saints of God then now I want you to think for a minute what would you put in that category what would you put there pornography

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I don't know feminism that supports abortion that kind of thinking sexual anarchy

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I mean what are the things that are destroying the country the most do you think she puts in this category

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Trumpism Trumpism yeah that's more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the

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Saints to Christians than anything else apparently Trumpism now whatever Trumpism is now

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I've this term gets thrown around all the time I think the best and I did a whole episode on this in fact

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I'll try to find it and remember to link it in these show notes where there are some Democrat political operatives before the election talking about Trumpism and one of them says

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Trumpism is the idea that America is not an idea but a country and I did a whole episode defending that because I'm if that's what

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Trumpism is then I'm I guess I'm a Trumpist I mean absolutely America's a country and not it's a it's a place it's a people it's a country it's not an idea this abstract thing that's ridiculous it's like saying your girlfriend or your boyfriend your husband your wife your children or someone someone you know and love you're just an idea you know that's stupid it's stupid so I did a whole episode on that and if you're confused by that because you've heard so -called conservatives use that terminology go watch the episode and you'll see what

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I'm talking about there it doesn't come from conservatism but what

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I mean other than that what is Trumpism it just seems like it's a catch -all word for sexism and racism and xenophobia and like anything negative that the left thinks is horrible they just put in this category this is

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Trumpism and and so so Beth Moore saying that's the seductive thing that's a dangerous thing

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Trumpism this Christian nationalism is not of God move back from it now here's another thing to just say about this before I read the her next two tweets she was the one that I think it was a week ago

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I had referenced Beth Moore and said it's I really respect the fact even though we're on opposite sides here that Beth Moore he she wanted the heads of the

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Southern Baptist seminaries to define critical race theory for her because she said you're not defining it what are you talking about what do you mean by it right

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I said that's absolutely correct you they should define it well I would like Beth Moore to define

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Trumpism what does she mean by Trumpism because it's not helpful I mean what it what's so unique about Trump that is different than what what's come before him

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I mean I'm thinking America first I'm thinking the you know the idea that this is a country that I mean it's so basic really that love loving this country and I mean there's

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I guess certain policies maybe put some protectionism is that Trumpism what exactly is she talking about so but it's so horrible that Christians need to move back from it fellow leaders we will be held responsible for remaining passive in this day for seduction to save our own skin while the

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Saints we've been entrusted to serve are being seduced manipulated used and stirred up into the lather of zeal devoid of the

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Holy Spirit for political gain so you're saying devoid of the Holy Spirit it's kind of a serious charge kind of a serious charge you're saying that this is you know this is a

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Christian heresy I mean it's worse than as a false teaching that's crept in we still don't know what it is but that's that's how she's treating this this is we're gonna be held responsible because I guess there's an eternal significance the

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Holy Spirit's not part of this and God help us we don't turn from Trumpism to Bidenism okay

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I don't know what Bidenism is we do not worship flesh and blood we do not place our faith in mortals we are the

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Church of the Living God we can't sanctify idolatry by labeling labeling the leader Cyrus we need no Cyrus we have a king his name is

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Jesus now a few things here I think this is the safety you know her third tweet you know look at the

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I mean by the time when I screenshot of this sixty three point six thousand likes for her first one by the time you get to the third one seventeen point seven not as many people see the third tweet and that's when she's talking about Bidenism I think it's a safety because Beth Moore has already talked to Beth Moore has been a

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Democrat and she's this is known this has been exposed you can go search for it and you'll find the info for that but she's certainly on the left she thinks critical race theory is not the threat is not a threat really or at least she wants the seminary heads to define it but she thinks neo -fundamentalism is the real threat comparatively speaking she she's

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I mean I don't have to go through all the different instances but theologically politically Beth Moore on the left especially by Southern Baptist standards there's no question about that but she wants to make sure she's putting in the language we don't want to go to Bidenism I know less of what

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Bidenism is than I do what Trumpism is Bidenism is like an empty shell in my mind Bidenism is I mean it's it's

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Harris ism heresy I mean I'm a Harris so it's kind of weird for me to say this but it's it's the vice president that I think is going to be filling more the political ideological checkboxes right

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Biden's kind of he's a politician he's he's on the left but he's kind of an empty suit in a way so I don't know what she means by Bidenism we do not worship flesh and blood well of course we don't but we are governed by flesh and blood in the political realm in the civil realm so that I mean this is just why

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I even say that I mean there's just muddies the waters I mean are there people that are out there worshiping Trump or worshiping

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Biden I guess I'd have to see what she's talking about what example are you giving that they're ascribing traits of deity to these people

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I mean I see people ascribing traits of deity to the government whenever there's emergencies like oh no kovats gonna kill us we cry out to our gods governments our

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God I mean you see that kind of thing but that's more on the left that you see that is treating government as God people certainly look up to Trump respect

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Trump are appreciative of Trump but worshiping Trump treating him as God ascribing those qualities of deity

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I don't I don't know I'd have to see what she's talking about I don't know what she's talking about and for it to be like the biggest thing that's you know that she's found in her sixty three and a half years of life to be seductive and dangerous to the

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Saints I mean it must be a pretty bad thing whatever this is we do not place our faith in mortals okay we are

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I mean what when you're choosing the elders of a church they have to meet qualifications yes does that mean you're placing your faith in work no so what is what do you mean like we don't place ultimate faith in mortals but we do have a degree of confidence when you marry your spouse are you placing some amount of faith when you give your child the keys to the car for the first time is there some amount of faith well yeah so what is she talking about here she's making it sound like there's this there's just religion happening the these people are switching out

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Jesus for Trump and that's the problem we are the Church of the Living God we can't sanctify idolatry now it's a serious charge so that this is she's accusing people who believe in whatever

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Trumpism is to be idolatrous and and that's it you know that that's kind of the end of the tweet now this is not helpful at all this is not

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I guess she's trying to signal to other Christian leaders to stand against whatever this is but it's not she's not defining her terms people don't know what she's talking about you think someone like myself would know what she's talking about since I'm fairly politically you know

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I know kind of what's going on in politics and you know I had paid attention to what

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Trump said over the last four years you'd think if anyone would know I'd know what she's talking about and I don't know what she's talking about in it

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I should say this I don't know what she's talking about given the grammar that she's using in the English language but do

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I know what she's talking about symbolically do I know I'm not gonna use the dog whistle language the

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Democrats like to use because they like to do that all the time but do I know where she's trying to move the needle what she's trying to say to the people who are listening to her yes and you see you do see it here you do see a moral posturing those who supported

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Trump or believe in Trump ism whatever that is see that's the question but it oh it's so vague

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I think that's a purposeful big vagueness and I've seen this so many times all and I'm beginning to get the hang of it it's a purposeful vagueness that the intent the intent is likely not to communicate if it is this is a train wreck the intent and I don't think

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Beth Moore is stupid I think she's smart the intent is very likely this is a this is a paradigm that makes sense of this more than the the idea that she's trying to communicate in a rational fashion the intent is to disparage a pull the opposite side the side that she does not like politically those who voted for Trump this is an intent the intent behind this is to disparage them they aren't real

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Christians they are following a false religion they are engaged in idolatry they are the

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Holy Spirit's not part of it they are being seduced by something dangerous they are switching out the

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King Jesus for King Trump I mean that's this is what she's trying to communicate and this is how it emotionally comes across and and that's exactly what

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I think is going on I think that's why everyone that is following in the wake of this this juggernaut of a boat that's going this you know

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Beth Moore has almost a million followers on Twitter when Beth Moore tweets it out it's popular and all these people following in her wake following on her coattails at these

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SBC seminaries and in other denominations look at what they're saying and I think it's it's that's the only paradigm that makes sense of this it is to bludgeon political opponents it is a political tactic this is not with the intention of care and concern and wanting to communicate clearly so people can understand and avoid this is the demonization of your political opponent and and and here's here's just a few things this is what

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I how I responded I said seriously more dangerous than pro abortion radical feminism than the movement to normalize sexual deviancies then the black lives matter let's shame white people and loot then

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Bernie Sanders socialism then Islamic fundamentalism in Michigan then big tech cancel culture it's

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Trump so Twitter only gives me so many words but I tried to put in as many things as I could think of in that amount of time and I could put more that are significantly more concerning than Donald Trump Denny Burke he said

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I'm here for the evangelicalism that isn't idolatrous Christian nationalism so I said I'm here for the evangelicalism that isn't postmodern deconstructionism identity politics and socialism

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I mean I mean I can define for you what postmodern deconstructionism is and identity politics and socialism these things

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I think are fairly well -defined people you have a little political savvy you know what I'm talking about most people don't understand really what

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Christian nationalism is though and and so that's part of the purpose of this podcast is I want to explore that a little bit and here's one other thing now some of you'll get a kick out of this

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I posted this I think on most of my social media accounts because I'm just I'm been observing these guys for like two years now and I've just noticed and on these guys

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I mean Christian elitist the heads of publishing houses and institutions and seminaries denominations etc

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Big Eva right that's the word that Phil Johnson coined so here's how I say this is how to be a

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Big Eva elitist because it just annoyed me seeing what these people are doing seeing it the divide really is between like working class and elites it seems like and here's how the elitist act

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Big Eva elitists love the city hate the nation right love the city hate the nation

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I mean Tim Keller's the prime example I mean the city is just ever supposed to seek the welfare of the city you hear that verse all the time cities are where God's moving and there's an eschatological reality there that came from Harvey Kahn but hate the nation nationalism is bad what the

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America's done especially in the past but it's currently doing as well it's it's bad we're bad people but love the city city's a great place the most secular areas in our country look at the map of the places that voted for Biden by county the cities right those are the places though that's where evil is too like if you're

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I mean not not that evil is not in the country or in the rural or suburban areas it is but it's the city where you see the most the the kinds of evil that are rotting our culture out in the entertainment industry in the media and academia in these kinds of places

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I mean those are the capitals for these kinds of things and so here's number two give ideas on the left a charitable reading here that word charitable reading a lot

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I can't stand that when we want to be accurate when accurate readings right not charitable readings give give ideas on the left a charitable reading purposely misunderstand and condemn ideas on the right claim you're a moderate you see this all the time

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I'm moderate I'm not left or right because I'm against abortion but everything else

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I believe is of the left or you know I'm against abortion and I think that maybe there isn't transgenderism

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I mean I don't even know if Big Eva elites are there anymore I mean they may even think that transgenderism is a thing

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I don't know depending on which one you talk to but they're caught this is how they treat ideas on the left they give them charitable readings

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I understand what that person's trying to do I just have a difference but on the right it's outright condemn you know take the border security issue there's not even an attempt to understand the plans that a

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Republican might have for that or what Trump might think about that it's just condemn passive aggressively subtweet conservatives while leaving room for plausible deniability

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I see this all the time shadowboxing on Twitter or on Facebook Big Eva elite will say something and you see this a little bit with the

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Beth Moore tweet it's kind of like I'm gonna I'm going to challenge all the

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Trump supporters but I'm gonna use the word Trump ism and no one really quite knows what that means and so I have plausible deniability if someone calls me out for it

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I can then I this plays into the next one if someone catches your meaning and calls you out play the victim misogynist racists are after me for my bold stand so if you say

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Beth Moore you know how dare you condemn Trump supporters she can say well I wasn't condemning Trump supporters you know how

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I was I was talking about Trump ism and or you know that it's vague enough that you can hide in that and then you can use that against those who would call you out or figure out the intended meaning whatever the government mandates unless it's

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Trump find biblical support even if it means breaking every rule for Bible interpretation this is so true you know like think about it this way the masks you know wearing a mask is loving your neighbor shutting down your church is loving your neighbor right and your neighbor is the weaker brother so therefore you need to do it for him right

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I've seen this used I think gospel coalition was using this but let's let's think about the vaccine who's the weaker brother on the vaccine issue someone doesn't want to take the vaccine they say

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I don't you know I don't want a vaccine that's made from stem some lines that come from a boarded fetus all right

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I just my conscience can't handle that well who's the weaker brother in that situation all of a sudden that passage isn't being used you still have to love neighbor by taking the vaccine it's whatever the government wants there's a

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Bible verse that will be used to back it up paint discerning Christians as divisive this happens all the time paint heretics who agree with you politically as courageous

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MLK anyone who is the one that just died Al Mohler had I was a senator and I can't remember his name now from down in Georgia it was a it was very liberal senator and Al Mohler had done this thing honoring this senator and anyway paint let's see make everything you despise an idol and everything you idolize a gospel issue make everything you despise an idol and everything you idolize a gospel issue not even gonna comment on that just think about it never condemn another member of the

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Big Eva guilt freely condemn any no name no namer for not going to the

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Big Eva member privately when they spoke public error so this

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I mean we see this all the time it's used to say how dare you condemn someone publicly for something they said publicly how dare you go against them you contradict them you use some discernment on what they said you're supposed to go to them privately but if they're but but if you think about it it's a contradiction because when someone does that to you publicly they're breaking their own rule because they're condemning you publicly not going to you privately right so it's complete self -refutation get your definitions right love is submission to tyranny inclusion is excluding undesirables equity is treating social groups as unequal diversity is shunning those sociologists say are oppressors justice is injustice rights are selfish frivolous desires nationalism is hating everyone else

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I'm gonna get to this being a witness is virtue signaling agreement with the world this is where we are guys up is down down is up the world has been turned on its head and our evangelical quote -unquote leaders are unfortunately some of the main ones that are promoting this and think about the ones that you still have hope for the ones that are conservative in your minds there they actually believe words have definitions

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I mean that's what it takes to be a conservative now where are they calling this stuff out where are they leading contradicting these kinds of things so that's a challenge now there's a side tangent because we're this is about nationalism but I it this was it was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back

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I just I'm like you know this is what characterizes you guys and I just I wanted to put it out there and I want you guys to think about it you know many have already liked this and said oh that's that nails it that's that describes kind of who these people are but it's a sad thing for me because you know

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I I held up hope for a while that what I thought was happening was not happening and I was wrong the socialist revolution the

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World Economic Forum global fascism that they want to implement that kind of stuff it's it's we have people that are pushing that are moving the needle in Christian areas that are making way for this kind of stuff and and I don't have patience for it anymore

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I don't think you should either this is not stuff to play around with so let's uh we're gonna be called

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Christian nationalists if we love our country and want to defend the sovereignty of this country etc so let's talk about what that all means first I want to acknowledge this is something is a discussion

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I could have brought you many examples that is going on in secular media here's Salon here's a article from October 4 2020 the rise of Christian nationalism in America fixing our eyes on American poverty well it's and it goes through this whole thing and of course it's

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Mike Pence Mike Pence is the representative of Christian nationalism such a horrible thing where does this come from well there's probably a few places we could start in my opinion this is the best place to start

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Robert Bell is civil religion in 1960 I really think this is kind of the definitionally this is where we start seeing from the left which

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Robert Bell is definitely from the left Tim Keller likes Robert Bell we see these attacks and and it's it starts in academic usually with putting whatever it is under the microscope to analyze to pick apart but not in necessarily and not in an unbiased way it's it's for the purpose of gaining control over that thing so if you get if you're allowed to define something you have control over that thing is how

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I'm just telling you I've been in academia long enough this is how it why do you think here let me give you this example why do you think every year there's one or two books published on the

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Christian right just about every single year I think the last one was Jesus and John Wayne right by a professor at Calvin College who is so far left how in the world is this person teaching at a

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Christian institution but that's where Calvin Colleges or Calvin University so so these books it is a business in and of itself these books come out every single year just about and it's been that way since since at least the 90s but I think it stems from that this is sort of the rudimentary picking apart and this is

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Robert Bell's civil religion 1960 this was his concept and this is a quote from from my book social justice goes to church for the evangelical left replacing incorrect understanding of hermeneutics soteriology and ecclesiology were incomplete without also rescuing

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Jesus from what sociologist Robert Bella called America's civil religion historians have routinely thought of mainstream figures like Billy Graham as exemplifying a virtuous and nationalist conception of America popularized by Lincoln and laced with biblical imagery and a sense of chosenness evangelical social justice advocates believe this template was diametrically opposed to the example of the biblical

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Jesus and if you read the book I show you how they have a different gospel a different Jesus of course

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I'm as an academic I'm writing this in a way that's if you didn't know who

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I am you would probably think it's coming across objectively you wouldn't know where I stand exactly but they they have

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Jesus was this radical revolutionary it's the liberation theology Jesus salvation is about saving social structures not just these individual you know that's half the

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Gospels individuals the other half is saving social structures so so Robert Bella is he's giving a category a new left category to Christians who would emerge in the 70s new left

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Christians evangelicals who would use this to say it's a false religion

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America's civil religion is a false religion and that's what the majority how convenient that's what the majority of evangelicals are and we are the ones with the truth with the true

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Jesus the true gospel and and I'm gonna give you here's just taking you through some examples from that era

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Carl Henry right mr. neo evangelicals helped start Fuller Theological Seminary Christianity today mentor for Al Mohler by the way he wrote the uneasy conscience of modern fundamentalism and here's what he said in 1970

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Carl Henry observed in the 1970 Christianity today article that young evangelicals wanted an honest look at many churches idolatry of nationalism this is

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Carl Henry in 1970 guys what Beth Moore is saying right now is not new it's just more mainstream

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Carl Henry saying this in 1970 at the same time they also desire aggressively promoting racial equality greater involvement in socio -political affairs diminishing respect for authority figures who represent economic power structures the elevation of young people in controlling church policy the elimination of middle -class standards of decency and favoring the underground church over the institutional church now you tell me that doesn't sound very close to what we're dealing with now and this was in 1970

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Carl Henry here's the first edition of the post -american picture of Jesus with American flag draped over him in a crown of thorns with looks like skyscraper in the background the voice of the people's

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Christian coalition that doesn't sound communist right this is Jim Wallace's organization that became sojourners 1971

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Tom Loudon an associate editor of the post -american opined in the first issue that if Christ came back today militarists would call him a subversive nationalists would call would claim he was not a true

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American and people would realize that he was a traitor for calling them to live for another kingdom in short everyone would think he was trying to destroy the

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American way of life what's he communicating what he's saying is there's no neutrality that Christ would come back and would he would be part of a completely different religion he's saying that everyone that believes in this nationalistic

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Christianity is not really a Christian it's a different religion than the one Jesus would have us believe that's a very serious charge right and nationalism is part of this nationalist right he was not a true

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American because it comes down to this and some people say a one kingdom two kingdom kind of division here but they believe that this and it carries through today that each some of these eternal realities like for instance the multi -ethnic church model you know every tribe tongue nation we got to push for this now we got to in a revolutionary way push for this on this earth well that's not what that is that's that's in the final state that's something

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God does that's not we're not ever commanded to make that happen on this earth but there's an expectation that it should it's sort of a utopian expectation because that's a heavenly reality and that's the kind of thing this is and this is very important for you all to understand this progressives are trying to progress towards a utopia of some kind some kind of if it's not perfect it's near perfect is this great situation and and what you know in the world economics forms mind that means there's no private property right we're all stakeholders stakeholder capitalism we don't actually own anything there's there's different ways to conceive of what that utopia might look like but for those influenced by the new left socialist ideas those that's what that is critical race theories part of this came out of this there's there's only one kingdom right that's the one that you are pursuing that's the one that everything should be about this one kingdom and and so in their minds you can't have a competitor and loving your country would be a competitor to love your country is a split allegiance between if you're a

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Christian between loving your country and loving the kingdom of God you can't have both you got to choose one so they're forcing a choice that scripture doesn't actually force it's legalism guys that's pharisaism that's adding to the law of God this is

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Galatian heresy right here adding to the law of God adding a requirement that without it you don't have authentic Christianity you don't actually have salvation that means you're not really justified you're following a false religion serious stuff guys

34:06

I hope you see this now here's here's another example Jim Wallace in 1976 said many

34:12

Christians are now learning that obedient discipleship involves a rejection of the greed the racism the violence and the aggressive nationalism that have come to characterize the life of the nation and its institutions now

34:25

I'm just gonna tell you because I've read a lot of this when they're talking about nationalism at that time most likely what they're talking about is it's very tied to the military it's very tied to law and order and especially more than anything else

34:38

Vietnam that's what they mean when they mean nationalism and it all comes down to this idea that our country is is the best or our country is worth protecting defending the institutions of this country the traditions are worth protecting and defending and we don't mind if we have to destroy or push back other countries and other institutions and those countries and traditions in order to protect our own that's what they're talking about at that time this is the new left this is the 60s radicals and I think that that's what carries through to today and you you catch it more in their use of the term than you do an actual definition they don't really define it

35:19

I haven't found one at least West Granberg Michaels in 1976 and I this is what he says this is a 1976 that's the nation's bicentennial and it was the article about it and he states that scripture unmasks the pretensions of our idols ideologies and nationalism it de -americanizes the gospel so the problem is the gospel is just too

35:42

American now here's here's the thing guys think about this what would happen if the gospel took sprout in China well in fact it it has taken taken roots in China hasn't it what would happen if the gospel sprouted up in Iran Iran well it has right many countries have had the gospel spring up in them and what does it look like in those countries let's take

36:09

South Korea what is the gospel and what was the church look like in South Korea looks kind of South Korean now there's influences from the

36:17

United States because just because there's so much money from the United States and Christians in the

36:22

United States pouring money into these things but if you go to Russia the church is gonna kind of look

36:28

Russian in fact they may have borrowed some of their traditions for instance the date of Christmas when you celebrate it from the

36:36

Eastern Orthodox Church even though they're evangelical what's up with that is that is that Christian nationalism in Russia no it's just the way the church looks in a certain context because culture is fluid it's being affected by many things it's there's ties to the land there's traditions of people there's language there's all sorts of things that go into form a culture the the kinds of items available to make food and the kinds of food you eat and I mean so many things affect culture and those things are gonna affect that what your church is like because Christianity and not just Christianity but religion in general is part of a culture in fact it's the one of the most fundamental things to a culture and this is what these folks don't seem to understand they have a very abstract idea in their heads of what utopia looks like and they want to just cram that down everyone else's throats everyone's got to accept that idea so that they can have their utopia principles like equality equity you know equity now diversity inclusion used to be tolerance they don't use tolerance anymore you notice that you know these kinds of things have their they have a working out they have specific actions that are supposed to take place to promote these things to achieve an end result of some kind and it doesn't matter what kinds of things get in the way of what they're achieved and resulted it's acid on a culture a historical monument gets in the way rip it down hey a person who's a

38:09

CEO of a company gets in the way shame them cancel them a certain tradition that Americans have participated in for years and years and years gets in the way well we got to stop celebrating that it's wrong and we're gonna have

38:23

Indigenous People's Day instead of Columbus Day I mean look that we can go on and on and on and on but that is that is the point of this whole thing and so I think the way conservatives look at this and the way progressives look at this are completely different and we understand that the conservatives look at this like what are you talking about the church is gonna look different depending on what culture it's in and that's fine at least the conservatives today

38:50

I mean there have been more imperialistic in the past there probably still are some I don't know who go and they're they're not just promoting you know

38:58

Christianity but they also are going to try to shove down the throat of whoever they're witnessing to certain

39:05

Western values which aren't native to that place I mean that has happened but that's not the situation we're in now and and that's not you know that that's

39:17

I mean I don't know anyone who thinks that way at all the Christians that are alive today in the

39:23

United States of America in general those who are conservative don't have a problem with the church looking different in different contexts but progressives do they're not okay with a church that is for a specific group of people because we all got to be one we all got to be have the exact same or one body of Christ we all got to have come together and you know be the exact exactly the same and it's fine to have a look

39:48

I told you guys I grew up in a church that became very multicultural and I loved it and it's fine it's great and I think that is appropriate but it's not something that's forced and it's not a you know not using that to achieve some kind of utopia it's just people who like to be with each other and worship

40:05

God together using their spiritual gifts there it's bride of Christ and it's okay if there's a

40:10

Chinese Christian church down the road and they have traditions that look a little different that's what they grew up with anyway that's how conservatives think and and they don't cause problems because of that as much but it's the forcing it's the totalitarian aspect that that you get from the progressives on the left in the church is no church is no exception 1983 the search for Christian America Mark Knoll, Nathan Hatch, George Mardsden you might recognize these names because if you went to seminary you would have had to read probably at least

40:40

Mark Knoll and George Mardsden here's what they said the religious right is a reaction to the Supreme Court on abortion and the bicentennial reminder of the

40:48

Christian past which led to a new evangelical engagement in public life and fueled actions that were already underway their concern was both historical and practical the nature of culture shows that the idea of a

41:00

Christian nation is a very ambiguous concept which is usually harmful to effective

41:05

Christian action in society so they didn't like this idea of a Christian nation now

41:13

I'll tell you what the language there I don't like that idea either I don't a

41:19

Christian nation in the sense if what you mean by that is everyone's a Christian and that's forced

41:25

I think upholding Christian moral standards yes but you can't force conversion a

41:34

Christian nation though in the sense let's say that were influenced by Christian ideas yeah absolutely something's got to fill that vacuum it's going to be

41:41

Christianity or something else so what did they mean by it now because they said hey it's a very ambiguous concept which usually harmful or effective is harmful to Christians in society and and really if you read the book it they're reacting to people like Marshall and probably the you know

42:03

I don't know if Barton was Peter Marshall and David Barton those kinds of people I don't know if Barton was publishing at this time but I don't think he was a little before him but that's what they're reacting to now there is a sense in which and I think you can trace this back to the

42:19

Puritans John Winthrop city on a hill that's what America is it's a there is a sense in which there's this idea of we're gonna set up almost like the perfect human society and that's our goal and when the sons and daughters of the

42:34

Puritans became Unitarians and Transcendentalists and Progressives and today you see the Northeast is one of the most liberal areas in the whole entire country it they kind of kept that idea of we're gonna transform society but they they don't have the

42:50

Christian ethic anymore so they're using a different ethic to try to transform society and I do see that as a dangerous thing but in 1983 when they're writing this when they're talking about the rise of the religious right where they're talking about you know

43:06

Jerry Falwell I think it was what 1979 or 80 when he starts the moral majority this is you know they're referencing the bicentennial reminder of the

43:14

Christian past Carter had campaigned on a Christian platform in some ways or at least there was a virtue he wanted a

43:21

Christian virtue he campaigned on I mean this is the context in which they're writing and they're saying yeah it's not a helpful thing to think of this nation as a

43:27

Christian nation so what Beth Moore is saying what others are saying right now

43:34

I just want you to realize this it's not new you know they think they discovered something or they're you know taking this bold stand that's never been taken before no this battles been going on for a long time and and hopefully you're understanding some of the issues better now

43:50

I want to to give you a sense of the word nationalism which is not which is a negative sense and then we're gonna we're gonna talk about what

43:58

I think it means today but I need to take you through this what is nationalism this is from 1889 actually

44:04

I'm gonna read for you first a quote from 1888 from Edward Bellamy Edward Bellamy is the cousin of I think it's

44:13

Francis Bellamy if I'm not mistaken who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance Edward Bellamy however wrote a book called looking

44:21

I think it's called looking backward and it's a socialist book it was extremely popular at the time and he had hundreds well between one and two hundred national groups and these nationalist clubs across the

44:34

United States that were for promoting his socialism now here's what he says every sensible man will admit there is a big deal in a name especially in making first impressions and the radicalness of the opinions

44:46

I have expressed see he's saying I'm a radical I may seem to out socialize the socialists yet the word socialist is one

44:54

I never could well stomach in the first place it is a foreign word in itself in equally foreign and all its exact suggestions it smells to the average

45:03

American of petroleum suggesting the red flag and with all manner of sexual novelties and an abusive tone about God and religion which in this country we at least treat with respect so what's he saying

45:15

I'm not gonna use the word socialism Americans see the word socialism and they they run the other way so what does he do whatever

45:23

German and French reformers may choose to call themselves socialist is not a good name for a party to succeed within America no such party can or ought to succeed that is not holy and enthusiastically

45:34

American and patriotic in spirit and suggestions there's a journal called the

45:44

Nationalist next year 1889 Edward Bellamy was involved when this he wrote the first I think he may have owned it or I'm not sure exactly what his level of involvement but he wrote for it certainly and here is an article called nationalism and Christianity I'm gonna read for you an excerpt from this just so this is for you may wonder why am

46:05

I doing this well this is so when these conversations come up you'll know where these term the term nationalism comes from because the term nationalism it wasn't used really you don't find it in the founding generation you don't find it being used even in the

46:20

Civil War you don't find the word nationalism there's a fairly new term now nations not net to nationalized isn't but nationalism being used the way it's used today is and I read from the

46:33

Nationalist nationalism is not throwing off our burdens upon Uncle Sam nationalism is not paternalism it is not laziness nationalists would not have everyone be supported by the government they would have everybody be the government they believe in government but in self government they believe in rule but in self rule and this distinction must be ever ever be remembered now that may sound good to some of you what he's talking about though is like Bernie Sanders democratic socialism he's saying it's not socialism it's democracy that's the argument he's making merely to extend government might be as in the case of most modern governments would be merely an external tyrannical to develop slavery no intimate acquaintance of Uncle Sam however we may admire his essential and inner characteristics can be very enthusiastic about extending his powers in this present state of development but this is not nationalism nationalism is to nationalize industry and thereby to promote the brotherhood of humanity the brotherhood of humanity that sound like nationalism the way it's used today or the opposite that is only to nationalize industry so far as this shall promote human brotherhood government therefore it must only be extended so far as it not be paternalism but a brotherhood truly democratic and this pledges nationalists to many things every nationalist must strive for ballot reform for a radical and thorough civil service reform a true one not a sham one hand in hand with extension of government must go reform in government and under nationalism these will inevitably develop together just so far as men become nationalists just so far as they come to conceive of government as the organic unity of a people organized to do the complete business of the people just so far as they have necessity cease to think of it as a fond as a fond old uncle existing mainly to be wheedled wheeled into bounties of candy and pin money or to be a resource and protection against the workers of strict justice no nationalists who realize the government is the business corporation to which he belongs can ever sell his ballot or endorse political corruption almost done nationalism means essentially the application of ethics and equity through government to business its development means the development of righteousness in social order and righteousness is

49:00

Christianity a man who asked if he believed in Christianity his answer was that he should first like to see it tried nationalists think that they too would like for once to see

49:11

Christianity tried now let me let me explain this to you this is

49:16

Bernie Sanders talk from over a hundred years ago this is what you're listening to this is if Bernie Sanders lived in a country that was so thoroughly influenced by Christianity that most people thought of themselves as Christians this is how he would talk now there's a few observations to make here one is

49:34

Francis Bellamy Edward Bellamy sorry Edward Bellamy has to hide his socialism by appealing to Americanism and Christianity and using the terminology they're familiar with so self -government is used he talks about you know also there's all sorts of patriotic things in here but of course

49:54

Christianity being the main one and you know uncle Sam uses that term so he's saying all this stuff but what do you actually find in principle in principle he's saying that the entire country should control the business the business of the country the means of production should be controlled by the people is communism that's what he's talking about he's just packaging it differently and the term he used to package it was nationalism and it was certainly infused with Christianity and you can see a a welding together here of Christianity and socialism now to our ears today this this may seem almost like conservative you know

50:36

Wow Christianity is gonna affect the government who would ever think that Edward Bellamy would use that kind of language he didn't write this specific piece it was just in a publication though that he was very fond of I don't think

50:50

I have the title right off the top of my yeah I don't have it readily available of who wrote it but it was in that it was in the nationalist if that's what nationalism is guys we have to reject it if it's socialism if it's the promoting human brotherhood we have to reject it what do you mean by human brotherhood human like like a universalism of some kind where we're all you know this is whatever we do in our country supposed to be like we're all equal

51:20

I guess what do you mean by human brotherhood I'm again vague but this is you know appealing to human brotherhood is something that Marxists have appealed to for a long time

51:31

I mean that's why Marx is it Marxism is international socialism it's it's looking at things a rich classical

51:37

Marxism is looking at things by class and that's more defining and more important than any of your national or local regional differences or religious differences etc but you can you can smell that you can smell the internationalism in a movement that's calling itself nationalistic and this is really where the term nationalism becomes popular in America it doesn't have a great origin but that's not what

52:07

Beth Moore is talking about right these guys are on the left so they should like nationalism right but they don't

52:13

Webster's 1828 dictionary says Nash they don't have nationalism nationalism is not in the dictionary in 1828 but the word nationalize is it's a verb transitive to make national to give to one the character and habits of a nation or the peculiar attachments which belong to citizens of the same nation it's something that used to be understood there's differences between people the the there's a really good podcast that Stephen Wolfe and Thomas Accord put out on a sense of place

52:43

I'll try to link it in the info notes as well and and they go over this and it's just it's this is something that used to be universally pretty much understood in the

52:53

Western world and now it we've lost it we don't understand and this is why we're having an identity crisis part of the reason for it but but this is something that used to be understood that there is something peculiar about a nation something different about them something they had different customs religions part of that they have different ways of they've let language ways of talking ways of probably cooking different art different things they like the manners and habits

53:21

I mean they do the way that they would court someone the way they would raise children the way they would do just about anything there's something that could be impacted that was impacted by the place they lived now patriotism here's another word from 1828

53:36

Webster's dictionary love of one's country the passion which aims to serve one's country either in defending it from invasion or protecting its rights and maintaining its laws and institutions in vigor and purity patriotism is the characteristic of a good citizen the noblest passion that animates a man in the character of a citizen now when you heard the word patriotism defined in 1828 do you think that that word patriotism bears a closer resemblance to what we think of today as nationalism or do you think what

54:14

I just read from Edward Bellamy and the Nationalists that that bears a closer resemblance the answer is patriotism patriotism today is seen as it's almost like interchangeable the the concept that Wes Webster had in 1828 of patriotism is the concept many people and have their in their mind today of nationalism

54:35

I mean look at it like loving loving your country serving your country defending it protecting its rights

54:41

I mean rights you hear all these evangelical social justice warriors saying that we shouldn't defend our rights

54:47

Jesus gave up his rights it's we should give up our rights same ones that are disparaging nationalism right patriotism

54:57

I think the concept that existed back then what the founding generation would have thought of patriotism is more close to what we think of today as nationalism here's the current

55:07

Webster's dictionary definition of nationalism loyalty and devotion to a nation especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to other those of other nations or supranational groups it sounds kind of similar to patriotism now you know if you're doing this within the border of your country if you're defending your country if you're promoting the ideals of your country that would be patriotism current

55:38

Webster's dictionary for patriotism and so generic love for or devotion to one's country that's it so what's the difference between nationalism patriotism according to Webster's today nationalism

55:48

I guess is it's just amped up patriotism it's loyalty and devotion to a nation especially a sense of national consciousness exalting your nation above others emphasizing your nation promoting its culture so it's it's it's more than just a love and devotion it's a love and devotion that seeks to perpetuate it and defend it

56:12

I mean what good is it to have you know what if you have love and devotion for your kids or your wife your husband but you're not willing to seek their best interest to defend them if they're attacked

56:23

I mean so I mean I that's what it seems like nationalism is just amped up patriotism today just patriotism times 10 in the minds of probably the left

56:35

I thought of when I was looking some of this stuff up America the Beautiful 1911 this verse was added to it

56:41

Oh beautiful for heroes proved in liberating strife who more than self their country loved and mercy more than life great you know greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends and who are your friends those you know those close to you your associates and those in your country those in your community are closer to you than those who are halfway around the world on a civil level all right and you know this is

57:13

I was looking at this I was thinking about this I was like is that is that the kind of nationalism that Beth Moore's against would she black out this line from America the

57:21

Beautiful and say this is wrong I'm almost getting that impression because the you know

57:28

I mean she's saying she's talking about Trump ism but the the the nationalism that's being so condemned today and yesterday

57:38

Sunday on Twitter you know what what is it that they're really so angry about what is what is making them so upset that that's some

57:49

Christians and and some other faiths as well but it was mainly kind of a Christian flair met in Washington DC many of them thinking and they weren't all

57:59

Christians it was more of a there was a pro -trump I think it was two rallies it was a pro -trump rally and then pro -election integrity and then there was a thing was the

58:08

Jericho rally or something I watched part of it if I was gonna level a criticism it would be the fact that it's ecumenical there were some things that were said that I thought man like this is kind of you know some evangelicals that were you know

58:24

I'm I don't have time to get into this in this podcast because it's long enough already but I don't have a problem with having co -belligerence and having common cause with someone who's a

58:34

Catholic or a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness even we can all stand against abortion in certain ways and I know there's gonna be some of you that have a problem with that and I would have to define out what

58:44

I mean I don't believe that you can have light has no fellowship with darkness I get that but in a on a political level to oppose something that is evil and to do it with someone else who also believes it's evil but has significant differences with you

58:58

I think that's something that you can do all right but at this rally there were some moments where there was

59:05

I'm not even getting the specifics but there there were just some things said that seemed made me my antenna went up and I'm like wait a minute are you saying that this group that doesn't believe in the same kind of salvation that you believe in is that they're they're gonna they believe the same thing because you don't want to give that impression and I think that impression was given and that is wrong you can make that criticism you can make the criticism age were sharing you know kind of kooky prophetic things that just if they don't come true then

59:36

I mean Old Testament was to just that person should be killed I mean that's Old Testament law and I'm not saying you implement that kind of thing today but you at least would have to dismiss them as being heretical confused at the very least

59:54

I mean there were some things like that but to say that the problem with the Jericho rally was nationalism they just love their country too much they love

01:00:03

Trump too much when they're concerned about an election that was fraudulently stolen or so far seems that it's going that direction doesn't it they're concerned about losing the values that have bound

01:00:17

Americans together election integrity being one of them a core fundamental one honesty following the

01:00:25

Constitution and the laws of your states if you make fun of that and call that nationalism or Trump ism that's scary what does that mean me you're you're against you don't want election integrity what and crying out to God to say

01:00:39

Lord we need you now I mean that should be the natural response where are these evangelical leftists why don't they have their own rally and then they can cry out to God I don't see them doing that I don't see them going out and saying we need to pray and we need to repent and we need to we need to wash our hands and make sure that you know

01:00:58

I don't living in holiness and I don't see any of that and that's the thing that bothers me

01:01:04

I'll be honest with you I speak on an emotional level now but it does to see these people condemn these other these this group of people that went to Washington DC yesterday because of some of the errors that or not because of errors but they ignore the errors and that condemn them for really what amounts to a good reason to gather and to not have any alternative to not be crying not supporting something you know an event to cry out to God and to ask him for mercy but to condemn those who are trying to do it even if they're doing it incorrectly or not as good as maybe you could do it

01:01:40

I mean it's just at least someone's trying to do something I mean that's I'm speaking from my gut here

01:01:45

I mean that's I mean it's it's to our shame then if there's people that don't have good theology leading these things it's too it's to our shame because Beth Moore now

01:01:55

Beth Moore doesn't have good theology but if she did certainly these professors at Southern Seminary would have better theology than some of the people that were speaking there

01:02:04

I think I don't know anymore but it's to their shame why aren't they out doing why aren't they having an event why aren't they crying out to God why aren't they encouraging

01:02:13

Christians to pray and to try to hold up righteousness in this country the

01:02:20

Lord hates unequal weights and measures I don't have a good answer

01:02:26

I know though there's a political battle and this is for the heart and soul of not just America but Western civilization

01:02:35

Christian civilization civilization that has been influenced by Christian ideas Sun is setting and I know that those on who are condemning this

01:02:46

Christian nationalism stuff on the other side of this they're they're they're moving the needle towards the world economic forum towards the

01:02:53

Chinese Communist Party and they may not some of them may not even know it that's how it's breaking down though a couple things to share with you in closing here hope that how would

01:03:05

I I mean this is sort of stream of consciousness but I'm hoping that you're you're getting some of these things it's making sense things are clicking

01:03:12

I mean hopefully now if someone says hey are you a nationalist you can only say to them well hey what in the sense of Edward Bellamy well no

01:03:19

I'm not a socialist that's where you know the term nationalists became popular are you talking about the civil religion

01:03:25

I mean people think you're really smart I guess of a Bella civil Robert Bella civil religion because in that sense

01:03:32

I guess you know maybe I am in some ways you know I do believe that Christianity should influence this country and then you can start parsing these things out but I want to come back to some biblical truth here this is not all the biblical truth this is you know this is just some verses that came to my head when

01:03:52

I was thinking through this what is culture Daniel 1 then the king told ash pen as the chief of his officials to bring in some of the sons of Israel including some of the royal family and of the nobles youths in whom there was no impairment who were good -looking suitable for instruction in every kind of expertise endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge and who had ability to serve in the king's court and he ordered ash pen as to teach them the literature and language of the

01:04:21

Chaldeans so what do you hear here litter this is this is a captivity this is we're taking it's kind of like what the

01:04:28

Turks did did with the Janissaries they would take young people from the enemies countries and then they'd make them you know we're gonna train them up to be the new leaders because you know there's they understand culture that's why they do this because they understand people are more willing to follow someone who is like them in many ways so we're gonna take those people and we're gonna get them to be on our side this is why you have

01:04:53

I mean look the Marxist figured this out a long time ago have people in Christian organizations that aren't socialistic those organizations happy have your plants in there because people are more likely to follow them have people in the

01:05:08

Republican Party who do your bidding because people in that party are more likely to follow them there they don't their guard is down they're not sensing a double agent they're not they don't think that this person is an enemy well this is what's happening they're taking them away they're gonna train them and how are they training them well it says literature and language two key concepts of what that make a culture to to to recruit people from one culture to another one of the things they're doing is teaching them literature and language the king also allotted for them a daily ration from the king's choice food from the wine which he drank so now we have food and ordered that they be educated for three years and at the end of which they were to enter the king's personal service and we know what happened with the story

01:05:55

Daniel said I'm not doing this he made up his mind he's not going to file himself with the king's choice food or with the wine which he drank and it was a religious reason for that it was a conflict of interest and we know what happened if you read the story what

01:06:09

I wanted to exemplify here that what I wanted to show you is that culture was understood those the the the

01:06:21

Israelites had religious objections so well some of them did most of them did not some of them did but culture was understood by their captors this is how we're going to get you in this is how and and religion was part of it because the food and the religion kind of went hand in hand

01:06:41

I don't know that people on the evangelical left understand culture and I think that's part of the disconnect honestly they seem to think that you can just that the culture must be completely divorced from religion and we find in this passage food and culture even and religion all went together and often that is the case and in the

01:07:13

United States we've had the benefit of having Christianity influence our institution so much and our culture that I mean you look at you go back a little over a hundred years and you got a socialist saying man

01:07:27

I can't market socialism here unless I call it America and I tried Americanism and I tried to nationalism and I try to recruit

01:07:37

Christianity somehow that is part of Christianity because the people are so influenced by Christianity still they need to know that this isn't getting conflict with Christianity that actually this is part of Christianity that used to be our country you want to call that Christian nationalism and call it

01:07:54

Christian nationalism but I just call it a country that was influenced very heavily by Christianity here's some verses to think about Psalm 33 12 blessed is the nation whose

01:08:07

God is the Lord the people he has chosen for his own inheritance this isn't just about Israel blessed is the nation whose

01:08:15

God is the Lord and there has been a time there for a while there's been a time when there was at least an acknowledgement of the

01:08:25

Lord in this country that has been attacked that has been fading for years there's still pockets of it left you saw a pocket of it on Saturday an attempt to place this country under the jurisdiction of God acknowledge that placement at least does that mean that certain nations are not blessed well yes it does certain nations are blessed more than others if you deny that then you're not being biblical

01:08:58

Genesis 22 18 in your seat all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have obeyed my voice now why would you quote that John because this is a promise that's given by God to Abraham and it's he's gonna be a father of many nation many nations he's gonna have a land an inheritance but through him the nations of the world are blessed through the

01:09:20

Messiah seed singular the seed Messiah this this means there's actually something special about this particular nation because that particular nation you see this in Romans chapter 9 and 11 of this particular nation of Israel is going to be the one that blesses other nations

01:09:44

Joshua 4 5 through 7 Joshua said to them cross again to the ark of the Lord your God into the middle of the

01:09:50

Jordan and each of you take up a stone on his shoulder according the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel there shall be a sign among you when your children ask later what do these stones mean to you then you shall say to them that the waters of the

01:10:01

Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the Lord when it crossed the Jordan the waters of the Jordan were cut off these stones shall be a memorial to the sons of Israel forever is that Christian nationalism or it wasn't

01:10:17

Christianity at that time is that you know religious nationalism is that acceptable to the evangelical left that kind of thing

01:10:28

I said well that's Israel well yet is Israel and they're just like I just said it shows got a special place in all this but there's also a blessedness that comes with a nation whose

01:10:37

God is the Lord and Israel's law was supposed to be a light to the Gentiles copy this there's also different laws applying to the foreigner that was another thing

01:10:51

I thought of you see this even with slavery in the ancient Hebrew laws the foreigners could be held in perpetuity and Israelis could not and there were other laws that also pertained they were different for those who were

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Jewish and those who are not even though the foreigners were expected to keep the laws of Israel but there was a difference that's not a bad thing if you say it is and you have to have a you have a problem with the law of God somewhere was

01:11:26

God exclusive was God God didn't care about diversity was God not for equity questions now here's an objection you might find

01:11:38

Philippians 320 for our citizenship is in heaven from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ Paul said this and I want to read for you a couple other passages from Paul Romans 9 3 for I wish that I myself were a curse separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh did he love his kinsmen his

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Jewish kinsmen more kind of sounds like it had a special love for them didn't he I mean if you told your wife or your husband you know

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I love you but I but just like I love every other person in the world

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I mean that's not much of a love there's a special love and it's okay to have a special love for your people

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Paul exemplifies it there's nothing wrong with that in fact it's natural to have that nations are extensions of families

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Acts 25 16 I replied to them that it is not the custom of the Romans to hand over any person before the accused meets his accusers face to face and has an opportunity to make his defense against the charges this is

01:12:44

Paul saying I appeal to my Roman citizenship because he was a Roman citizen as well

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Paul using his Roman privilege here hmm and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live in the face of the earth having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation acts 17 looks like God has some borders he set up is that a problem that God has done this he's appointed the times and the boundaries of their habitation the all three of these quotes are from the

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Apostle Paul the same man who said our citizenship is in heaven sounds like Paul was actually trying to make a different point in Philippians 3 then to eliminate the citizenship and attachments that we have on this earth because he appeals to the privileges that come with some of those attachments he expresses the love he has that come with some of those attachments for his kinsmen he talks about in the sovereignty of God how boundaries borders have been ordained

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Paul wasn't dreaming of a borderless utopia where everyone is completely included and has the same exact rights privileges whatever

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I'm sorry that's not the Paul we see in Scripture that's not what he was saying in Philippians 3 20 so I hope this helped you

01:14:10

I want to go back to the beginning you know this is a lot I went way past you know what

01:14:16

Beth Moore's saying about Trumpism and Christian nationalism but I think it's important for us to understand everything

01:14:25

I just went over I think if we if we have a grasp on this if we know better than the progressive left if we understand what nationalism is we can define their terms better than they can if we can ask them questions with the knowledge of what kinds of legitimate avenues they have to define the term nationalism if we understand

01:14:47

I think even biblically and and and historically what has been natural and what has been the case in not just our context in the

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United States but what I mean look ancient Israel was given to us those stories are given to us as a model

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God's law is given to us as a model we're supposed to be looking at these things we're supposed to be gleaning from these things and learning from them and that means that God wasn't giving us a he wasn't giving us a bad model he wasn't giving us evil things to copy so if we understand just a little bit of history we understand what the

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Bible says I don't think we're gonna be taken in by this stuff this condemnation of Christian nationalism so I hope that helps you

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I really do I hope that that was at least beneficial analysis there was another video

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I was gonna run today and I had it scheduled and all and ready to go and then this whole thing broke out and I thought you know what

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I'm gonna hold off on that and because I just want to talk about this Christian nationalism stuff it is a boogeyman it is a scare tactic it is a tactic to bludgeon the other side it is dishonest it is imprecise these are supposedly really you know smart people who publish books and work at seminaries that are using this imprecise language and it's time that we just don't we don't pay any attention to it we don't give it any kind of a platform as far as we don't take it seriously because there is nothing to take serious here they need to define their terms and and then we need to challenge them which is what

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I challenge you to do so God bless and if you last chance if you want to get this before Christmas you better go to socialjusticegoestochurch .com

01:16:32

and order your copy today some of the information I shared in this particular video was included in this book