May 7, 2024 Show with Dr. Joseph LoSardo on “You’re not David (Or Are You?)”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of May, 2024.

Before I introduce our guest and our topic today, I have an update. Those of you who have been listening fairly regularly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio know that I have been requesting prayer for the granddaughter of my dear friends, Pastor Joe and Becky Moorcraft of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

They are major sponsors of this program, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is a frequent guest on this.

Program.

And I have been requesting prayer for their little grandbaby, Rebecca Hope, the daughter of Joe and Becky Moorcraft's daughter and son-in-law, Mercy and Josh. And this baby, little baby Rebecca Hope, was, before she was even born, the doctors knew that she had a life-threatening heart condition, and they had a very poor prognosis.

They did not have high expectations of the baby's survival. In fact, they didn't even expect the baby to be born alive. The baby even exceeded, thanks be to God, the lifespan that the doctors expected.

And two days after the baby, Rebecca Hope, celebrated, or as the family celebrated her one-month birthday, the baby went home to the Lord. So this is obviously a time of devastation and heartache and grief and sorrow, but the Moorcrafts are very strong Christians, and so is their daughter and son-in-law, and they are trusting in Christ.

They were prepared for this as best as they could be prior to the passing of this little girl. So I'm just asking you to please pray for the Moorcrafts and the Allen family, that's Mercy and Josh Allen are the daughter and son-in-law of Joe Moorcraft and his wife Becky, parents of little Rebecca Hope.

So please pray for them and that they continue to be a vibrantly shining beacon of light with the love of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ, even in the midst of this sorrowful trial that they are experiencing.

The Topic: You're Not David, Or Are You?

But today I am thrilled to have on the program a returning guest. He's an old friend of mine, his name is Dr. Joseph Lissardo, pastor and one of four elders at Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey, which is a confessionally Reformed Baptist church.

And he is the former co-host of the radio program, The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which is a program that I actually created in the 90s, aired five nights a week, and had five different pastors hosting a night each a week, and all from Reformed churches, varying denominations and fellowships within the Reformed community, but they were all solidly Reformed, and Joe Lissardo was one of those pastors.

That program aired on a major Salem media affiliate where I worked for 15 years, WMCA, 570 AM in New York, and today Joe is joining us here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio to discuss the theme, You're Not David, or Are You?, gleaning application from the Bible's most popular story.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Joe Lissardo.

Hi Chris, it's my privilege to be here. It's always a blessing to spend time with you.

Amen. Well, it's always a blessing to have you on the show, and if you could, since it's been so long, since you've been on the program, either remind our listeners about Bread of Life Fellowship, or inform them about that fine church for the first time, because we have got many new people listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio that were likely not in our audience the last time you were on, so tell us about this church.

Sure. Yeah, it's got to be a few years at least, right? At least three or four years, I'm thinking, that I haven't been on, and it's not for your sake. You've asked me. It's just life got busy, especially after COVID, life got busy, but it's good to be here, and God willing, it won't be as long before the next one, if you'll have me back.

Amen.

So we're in northern Jersey, so anyone that would live in either Bergen or Passaic County or Hudson County, we meet in Wayne, New Jersey, which is right pretty much on the border of Passaic and Bergen County.

We are a Reformed Baptist congregation. We also have a church plant that, God willing, in a couple of months is going to become an independent congregation, meeting about a half hour south in North Arlington, so if anyone would like to find out any more information about either the church meeting in Wayne or in North Arlington, if you're in either of those areas, feel free to contact us.

You can call me at 201 -907 -0300. That's 201 -907 -0300, or you can email us at info at BOLfellowship .org, or check out our website. All the information is there, BOLfellowship .org.

Yes, and that's right.

I should know that. Actually, I don't even know if that's the case, but by the end of the show—.

It is correct, because I'm looking at the website, so I know it's BOLfellowship .org, which stands for BreadofLifeFellowship .org, and I'm assuming your sermons are on Sermon Audio?

Yes, sermons are on Sermon Audio. Yes, absolutely. We're in the midst of First Samuel right now, which is why we're kind of prompted the idea of discussing the topic that we're going to be discussing today.

And it should fascinate many of our listeners to know that Dr. Lussardo was at one time an elder at a charismatic messianic congregation, one that believed in and practiced all of the sign gifts, including an alleged gift of prophecy and so on.

And Dr. Lussardo not only came to a Reformed position of theology, but he also became a cessationist, and perhaps we should revisit that with you sometime.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not—yeah, all right, we can talk about that another time. Yeah, I just—the terminology, I think, causes people to unnecessarily stumble, I think, sometimes. When you hear cessationist, you think, you know, God doesn't work in any miraculous way, and that's not what I believe by any—or you, or any Reformed Baptist, for that matter.

We know that God does work in miraculous ways. Just the fact that he saves us is a great miracle.

Amen. Well, as I've already announced, we are discussing the theme, You're Not David or Are You?, and we are gleaning applications from the Bible's most popular story, or at least one of the Bible's most popular stories, but certainly one that is a favorite not only amongst Christians, but Jews as well.

So, tell us exactly what you mean by this theme that you have chosen for us.

Well, not only Jews and Christians, but almost everyone has some concept of David and Goliath. For example, if you're a sports fan and you live in New York, you have the Yankees and the Mets, and the Yankees are often the Goliaths of our area, the Mets being the Davids.

And you often hear when one overwhelmingly good team takes on an underdog, you hear that analogy. So, people are very familiar. I would say it's certainly, in the Old Testament, the most well-known story in the Old Testament.

And it's been taught and preached in several ways. Some take the text and they moralize the text. They see David as an example for human action, where others, I think more correctly, although I do see a balance there, others see Christ, Christ as David.

David is the champion who is the shadow of Christ, who defeats our Goliath of sin and death. For others, though, it's nothing more than a pep rally. And I'm going to have you share that first clip in a moment, but when you hear this particular speaker, who I think you'll be able to identify by his voice, you'll see that he basically just makes it a pep talk.

I'll let you play that first clip, then I'll come back with a follow-up on it, if you can, if you have it ready.

Yes, I do. And here is the first clip, and I don't have any problem mentioning the fact that it's Joel Osteen, not somebody who has been a guest on this program, nor would he want to be. But here we go.

If you'll face your giants, God will give you strength to defeat what should defeat.

You.

When you do what you can, God will do what you can. When you do the natural, God will do the supernatural. In your own strength, you may not be able to forgive, to break the habit, to lead the company, but you're not on your own.

When you stop running, God steps in and gives you power, favor, ability that you've never.

Had. Well, that was, as you said, definitely a pep talk. And before I have anything of my own to say, I would like you to now examine what we just heard in light of your theme today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he's talking about making an application from 1 Samuel chapter 17, the story of David and Goliath. When you run to your giants, God will make things happen that you couldn't make happen. And he goes on later in the clip to talk about running to your purpose, and God's telling you it's time to stop running, and you have to face your giants.

And among your giants include examples like dealing with your temper, getting back in shape, or the call of God on your life, which, of course, people are running from. But are they indeed the giants that we're supposed to learn from 1 Samuel 17?

Is that the giant that's defeated? And I think, again, there are some things that we can glean from that, but we'll get to later. But when we read the Bible in that kind of way, almost a narcissistic way, where we put ourselves in the place of the hero of the Scripture, it does become dangerous for us to understand the Scripture that way.

So in light of that, if you have the second clip ready, you could play that one, and I think it'll make it clear what I'm saying.

Now, I believe this is Matt Chandler?

Yes, it is.

And he, of course, is a man that has his own controversy, even amongst Reformed people. But here is Matt Chandler.

The Bible's not about you. Here's what you'll keep infusing yourself into the stories of the Bible like you're.

The hero.

And this happens all the time. All right.

So I mean, I want to be straight. I love you enough to be straight. You're not David.

All right.

Your trouble in life is not Goliath. And if that's true, you're in a lot of trouble, bro, because you miss. Now you fling your stones and you miss and Goliath's still there. And now what?

Well, I had five.

You'll miss all five. So if you view the scriptures through that lens, that really all the superheroes in the Bible are actually you, then then you put a weight on your shoulders that listen to me, you will not be able to bear.

Jesus is the greater David. Jesus is the greater Moses. Jesus is the greater Abraham. It's a whole point of the book of Hebrews.

Well, there was that clip.

Yeah, yeah. And we could say amen to so much of that. Yeah, absolutely. The book of Hebrews, book of Colossians talks about the Old Testament being a shadow that points us to Christ. Everything that was written was was written ultimately to point to Christ.

When Christ was speaking with two of his disciples after he was risen from the dead, he went through all of the scriptures and that that pointed to him. So we can definitely say amen to what what was just said about you are not David.

Christ is the fulfillment of David's kingship. He is the fulfillment of Abraham. He's the fulfillment of Daniel. But yet there's there is still this tendency on the part of people to moralize the text.

An example of a children's song that I remember, Dare to be a Daniel. Remember that one?

Yes. Yeah.

So it puts you in a position. He makes a good point. He puts you in the position of being the hero of the story, something you'll never be able to do because Christ did it on your behalf.

Proper Exegesis, Application, and the Danger of Eisegesis

OK, now let me respond with my own thoughts here. Perhaps we can have a little give and take, push and shove, that kind of thing. I agree with you and I agree with Matt Chandler that when we exegete passages and we are trying to get to the root of what texts in the God-breathed words of Scripture actually mean and what they were intended for, we must always seek to make sure we're not guilty of eisegesis, importing things into the texts that were never intended by the original authors or, more importantly, by God himself.

But having said that, how are we, for instance, if we are in a position in our lives where we are facing something terrifying, perhaps we are buckled over on our knees or perhaps even in a fetal position on the floor, weeping because of some decision that we have to make, that view that it seems to be horrific consequences on either side of our decision and we are just wracked with fear or even to the point of being emotionally crippled by it, is it wrong to remember the Garden of Gethsemane and say, well, Jesus faced something far greater than I.

I did not have the wrath of the Father poured upon me during an execution that he was facing and Jesus knew full well that he was not just facing an ordinary martyr's death. There had been many, many people who were martyred before Christ and many martyred after him in ways that are physically, on an earthly plane, equally as gruesome, but none of those people had the wrath of the Father poured on them.

Is it wrong for me to say, well, Jesus, even Jesus said that he is going to choose the will of the Father, even though he wanted the cup passed before him, is it wrong to apply that in some way to whatever I'm going through?

No, not at all. I think that's a very valid application. Some would disagree with that, certainly. Some schools, they would disagree. But I think especially being more, you know, in Baptist circles and where we tend to look for the application of the text, I think that is a valid application and it makes it also a valid application of the story in David and Goliath, which we'll get to.

It's kind of why the title of this is You're Not David or Are You? Because we are to emulate. Are we not to emulate the faith of Abraham, for example? And we can. And ultimately, David was a human being and he did exhibit great faith, so we can certainly learn our lessons from it.

Now, while it's not primarily the purpose of that text, the purpose of the text is to point us to Christ. That doesn't mean that we should ignore the encouragement that that story brings to our own faith when we do face our lesser giants than sin and death that was conquered for us.

So tell us what should be a proper exegesis of this text, and if you have any others that are commonly misused and abused by popular speakers.

Sure.

Well, can I maybe go through the text a little bit for people that may be a little bit unfamiliar, or you just heard the story, you know, you know the names David and Goliath. Maybe you don't know the whole the whole thing.

Can I set it up a little bit?

Oh, yeah. In fact, let's so I don't have to interrupt you mid-sentence. Let's do that when we return from our first commercial break.

Okay.

And if anybody has a question, you may send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan.

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight-volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.

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In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner, Eric Liddell, remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That's royaldiadem .com. Please mention Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Dr. Joe Lassardo and we are discussing the theme, You're Not David or Are You?, and we were just about to have Dr. Lassardo exegete the passages regarding David and Goliath to begin with that have been misused, perhaps well-intentioned, but still nonetheless misused and perhaps even trivialized by this misuse by not only televangelists and popular authors but even average pastors.

And remember if you want to ask a question of your own, the email address is ChrisOrensen at gmail .com. But if you could, Pastor Joe? Sure. Yeah, I like that word,.

Trivialized. I think it's better—it more accurately nails it as opposed to misused. That's really the danger of, in a sense, dumbing down one of the most important.

Stories in the Scripture. Yeah, in fact, you and I both agreed before the show that as bad as an application as Joel Osteen gave to the story of David and Goliath, it was probably the best I've ever heard him—the most biblically faithful approach to a sermon that I've ever heard.

From his lips. Yes, yes, exactly. I've heard far worse. All right, so 1 Samuel. The beginning of 1 Samuel introduces us, obviously, to Samuel, but the hero of the book comes in about chapter 16. We're introduced to this one David at this time.

He's just basically a shepherd, a teenager. He's from an obscure little town called Bethlehem. And in chapter 16, he's brought from the sheepfold, tending to his father Jesse's sheep, into the presence of the king.

Chapter 17, everything changes. Up to this point, David has not said a word, but literally overnight, as a result of the events of chapter 17, everything changes. Chapter 17 is interestingly laid out.

The first 11 verses show us that there's this attack mounting up between Israel and their primary nemesis, the Philistines. Israel is on one mountain, the Philistines on the other, the Valley of Elah between them.

And out of the midst of the Philistine camp comes this impressive figure. He's over nine feet tall. He's wearing 150 pounds of armor. He has a 12-foot spear in his hand, and he's defiantly boasting against God and the armies of God, a Goliath of Gath.

He challenges Israel to send forth a representative to fight him in this, basically, this winner-take-all battle royale. And the challenge comes forth, but there's no one who takes the challenge. And as far as the people are concerned, this is why they chose their king, who at that time was Saul, because he was a tall man.

He was a man who stood above the crowd. But even in his height, it was no match for the Philistine giant. So Goliath mocks, he calls the children of Israel, he calls them followers of Saul, very much pictured like Satan, serpent-like in his words, boastful.

He's wearing the scaled armor. He's denigrating Yahweh, the God of Israel. He's denigrating the army of Israel. And he basically wants to make them his captive, his slaves. And that is Satan's goal for humanity is to enslave us.

Come verse 12, we're introduced now David. This brings a literary relief to the tension that the first 11 verses build as they describe Goliath. And now we're going to be introduced to this one son of Jesse, who is going to be the hero of the story.

Jesse, the father of David, sends David to the battlefield. And that's the providential circumstances that God arranges. Basically, his father tells him, David, go check on your brothers. They're going out to war.

Bring them food. Report back to me how they're doing. He goes out. These were the providential circumstances that God used to bring David to the battlefield. And just at the right time, he happens to hear Goliath's threats.

Goliath had been making the same threats for 40 days. No one stood up. Saul, the king, Israel, coward in fear. In verse 24 of the chapter, it says, all the men of Israel, when they saw the man, meaning Goliath, they fled from him and were much afraid.

David, however, sees things very differently than the rest of the Israelites. He sees it as a challenge, not merely on physical terms, but on theological terms. And so David speaks up for the very first time in the Bible, the very, very first time in verse 26.

I don't know. And then the person says, well, my broker is EF Hutton. And EF Hutton says, and all the people lean in. Well, this is that moment when David, the one who you're waiting for, the hero, first time he speaks and he says these words, he says, for who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?