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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of May, 2024.
Before I introduce our guest and our topic today, I have an update. Those of you who have been listening fairly regularly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio know that I have been requesting prayer for the granddaughter of my dear friends, Pastor Joe and Becky Moorcraft of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.
They are major sponsors of this program, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is a frequent guest on this.
Program.
And I have been requesting prayer for their little grandbaby, Rebecca Hope, the daughter of Joe and Becky Moorcraft's daughter and son-in-law, Mercy and Josh. And this baby, little baby Rebecca Hope, was, before she was even born, the doctors knew that she had a life-threatening heart condition, and they had a very poor prognosis.
They did not have high expectations of the baby's survival. In fact, they didn't even expect the baby to be born alive. The baby even exceeded, thanks be to God, the lifespan that the doctors expected.
And two days after the baby, Rebecca Hope, celebrated, or as the family celebrated her one-month birthday, the baby went home to the Lord. So this is obviously a time of devastation and heartache and grief and sorrow, but the Moorcrafts are very strong Christians, and so is their daughter and son-in-law, and they are trusting in Christ.
They were prepared for this as best as they could be prior to the passing of this little girl. So I'm just asking you to please pray for the Moorcrafts and the Allen family, that's Mercy and Josh Allen are the daughter and son-in-law of Joe Moorcraft and his wife Becky, parents of little Rebecca Hope.
So please pray for them and that they continue to be a vibrantly shining beacon of light with the love of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ, even in the midst of this sorrowful trial that they are experiencing.
But today I am thrilled to have on the program a returning guest. He's an old friend of mine, his name is Dr. Joseph Lissardo, pastor and one of four elders at Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey, which is a confessionally Reformed Baptist church.
And he is the former co-host of the radio program, The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which is a program that I actually created in the 90s, aired five nights a week, and had five different pastors hosting a night each a week, and all from Reformed churches, varying denominations and fellowships within the Reformed community, but they were all solidly Reformed, and Joe Lissardo was one of those pastors.
That program aired on a major Salem media affiliate where I worked for 15 years, WMCA, 570 AM in New York, and today Joe is joining us here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio to discuss the theme, You're Not David, or Are You?, gleaning application from the Bible's most popular story.
It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Joe Lissardo.
Hi Chris, it's my privilege to be here. It's always a blessing to spend time with you.
Amen. Well, it's always a blessing to have you on the show, and if you could, since it's been so long, since you've been on the program, either remind our listeners about Bread of Life Fellowship, or inform them about that fine church for the first time, because we have got many new people listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio that were likely not in our audience the last time you were on, so tell us about this church.
Sure. Yeah, it's got to be a few years at least, right? At least three or four years, I'm thinking, that I haven't been on, and it's not for your sake. You've asked me. It's just life got busy, especially after COVID, life got busy, but it's good to be here, and God willing, it won't be as long before the next one, if you'll have me back.
Amen.
So we're in northern Jersey, so anyone that would live in either Bergen or Passaic County or Hudson County, we meet in Wayne, New Jersey, which is right pretty much on the border of Passaic and Bergen County.
We are a Reformed Baptist congregation. We also have a church plant that, God willing, in a couple of months is going to become an independent congregation, meeting about a half hour south in North Arlington, so if anyone would like to find out any more information about either the church meeting in Wayne or in North Arlington, if you're in either of those areas, feel free to contact us.
You can call me at 201 -907 -0300. That's 201 -907 -0300, or you can email us at info at BOLfellowship .org, or check out our website. All the information is there, BOLfellowship .org.
Yes, and that's right.
I should know that. Actually, I don't even know if that's the case, but by the end of the show—.
It is correct, because I'm looking at the website, so I know it's BOLfellowship .org, which stands for BreadofLifeFellowship .org, and I'm assuming your sermons are on Sermon Audio?
Yes, sermons are on Sermon Audio. Yes, absolutely. We're in the midst of First Samuel right now, which is why we're kind of prompted the idea of discussing the topic that we're going to be discussing today.
And it should fascinate many of our listeners to know that Dr. Lussardo was at one time an elder at a charismatic messianic congregation, one that believed in and practiced all of the sign gifts, including an alleged gift of prophecy and so on.
And Dr. Lussardo not only came to a Reformed position of theology, but he also became a cessationist, and perhaps we should revisit that with you sometime.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not—yeah, all right, we can talk about that another time. Yeah, I just—the terminology, I think, causes people to unnecessarily stumble, I think, sometimes. When you hear cessationist, you think, you know, God doesn't work in any miraculous way, and that's not what I believe by any—or you, or any Reformed Baptist, for that matter.
We know that God does work in miraculous ways. Just the fact that he saves us is a great miracle.
Amen. Well, as I've already announced, we are discussing the theme, You're Not David or Are You?, and we are gleaning applications from the Bible's most popular story, or at least one of the Bible's most popular stories, but certainly one that is a favorite not only amongst Christians, but Jews as well.
So, tell us exactly what you mean by this theme that you have chosen for us.
Well, not only Jews and Christians, but almost everyone has some concept of David and Goliath. For example, if you're a sports fan and you live in New York, you have the Yankees and the Mets, and the Yankees are often the Goliaths of our area, the Mets being the Davids.
And you often hear when one overwhelmingly good team takes on an underdog, you hear that analogy. So, people are very familiar. I would say it's certainly, in the Old Testament, the most well-known story in the Old Testament.
And it's been taught and preached in several ways. Some take the text and they moralize the text. They see David as an example for human action, where others, I think more correctly, although I do see a balance there, others see Christ, Christ as David.
David is the champion who is the shadow of Christ, who defeats our Goliath of sin and death. For others, though, it's nothing more than a pep rally. And I'm going to have you share that first clip in a moment, but when you hear this particular speaker, who I think you'll be able to identify by his voice, you'll see that he basically just makes it a pep talk.
I'll let you play that first clip, then I'll come back with a follow-up on it, if you can, if you have it ready.
Yes, I do. And here is the first clip, and I don't have any problem mentioning the fact that it's Joel Osteen, not somebody who has been a guest on this program, nor would he want to be. But here we go.
If you'll face your giants, God will give you strength to defeat what should defeat.
You.
When you do what you can, God will do what you can. When you do the natural, God will do the supernatural. In your own strength, you may not be able to forgive, to break the habit, to lead the company, but you're not on your own.
When you stop running, God steps in and gives you power, favor, ability that you've never.
Had. Well, that was, as you said, definitely a pep talk. And before I have anything of my own to say, I would like you to now examine what we just heard in light of your theme today.
Yeah.
So he's talking about making an application from 1 Samuel chapter 17, the story of David and Goliath. When you run to your giants, God will make things happen that you couldn't make happen. And he goes on later in the clip to talk about running to your purpose, and God's telling you it's time to stop running, and you have to face your giants.
And among your giants include examples like dealing with your temper, getting back in shape, or the call of God on your life, which, of course, people are running from. But are they indeed the giants that we're supposed to learn from 1 Samuel 17?
Is that the giant that's defeated? And I think, again, there are some things that we can glean from that, but we'll get to later. But when we read the Bible in that kind of way, almost a narcissistic way, where we put ourselves in the place of the hero of the Scripture, it does become dangerous for us to understand the Scripture that way.
So in light of that, if you have the second clip ready, you could play that one, and I think it'll make it clear what I'm saying.
Now, I believe this is Matt Chandler?
Yes, it is.
And he, of course, is a man that has his own controversy, even amongst Reformed people. But here is Matt Chandler.
The Bible's not about you. Here's what you'll keep infusing yourself into the stories of the Bible like you're.
The hero.
And this happens all the time. All right.
So I mean, I want to be straight. I love you enough to be straight. You're not David.
All right.
Your trouble in life is not Goliath. And if that's true, you're in a lot of trouble, bro, because you miss. Now you fling your stones and you miss and Goliath's still there. And now what?
Well, I had five.
You'll miss all five. So if you view the scriptures through that lens, that really all the superheroes in the Bible are actually you, then then you put a weight on your shoulders that listen to me, you will not be able to bear.
Jesus is the greater David. Jesus is the greater Moses. Jesus is the greater Abraham. It's a whole point of the book of Hebrews.
Well, there was that clip.
Yeah, yeah. And we could say amen to so much of that. Yeah, absolutely. The book of Hebrews, book of Colossians talks about the Old Testament being a shadow that points us to Christ. Everything that was written was was written ultimately to point to Christ.
When Christ was speaking with two of his disciples after he was risen from the dead, he went through all of the scriptures and that that pointed to him. So we can definitely say amen to what what was just said about you are not David.
Christ is the fulfillment of David's kingship. He is the fulfillment of Abraham. He's the fulfillment of Daniel. But yet there's there is still this tendency on the part of people to moralize the text.
An example of a children's song that I remember, Dare to be a Daniel. Remember that one?
Yes. Yeah.
So it puts you in a position. He makes a good point. He puts you in the position of being the hero of the story, something you'll never be able to do because Christ did it on your behalf.
OK, now let me respond with my own thoughts here. Perhaps we can have a little give and take, push and shove, that kind of thing. I agree with you and I agree with Matt Chandler that when we exegete passages and we are trying to get to the root of what texts in the God-breathed words of Scripture actually mean and what they were intended for, we must always seek to make sure we're not guilty of eisegesis, importing things into the texts that were never intended by the original authors or, more importantly, by God himself.
But having said that, how are we, for instance, if we are in a position in our lives where we are facing something terrifying, perhaps we are buckled over on our knees or perhaps even in a fetal position on the floor, weeping because of some decision that we have to make, that view that it seems to be horrific consequences on either side of our decision and we are just wracked with fear or even to the point of being emotionally crippled by it, is it wrong to remember the Garden of Gethsemane and say, well, Jesus faced something far greater than I.
I did not have the wrath of the Father poured upon me during an execution that he was facing and Jesus knew full well that he was not just facing an ordinary martyr's death. There had been many, many people who were martyred before Christ and many martyred after him in ways that are physically, on an earthly plane, equally as gruesome, but none of those people had the wrath of the Father poured on them.
Is it wrong for me to say, well, Jesus, even Jesus said that he is going to choose the will of the Father, even though he wanted the cup passed before him, is it wrong to apply that in some way to whatever I'm going through?
No, not at all. I think that's a very valid application. Some would disagree with that, certainly. Some schools, they would disagree. But I think especially being more, you know, in Baptist circles and where we tend to look for the application of the text, I think that is a valid application and it makes it also a valid application of the story in David and Goliath, which we'll get to.
It's kind of why the title of this is You're Not David or Are You? Because we are to emulate. Are we not to emulate the faith of Abraham, for example? And we can. And ultimately, David was a human being and he did exhibit great faith, so we can certainly learn our lessons from it.
Now, while it's not primarily the purpose of that text, the purpose of the text is to point us to Christ. That doesn't mean that we should ignore the encouragement that that story brings to our own faith when we do face our lesser giants than sin and death that was conquered for us.
So tell us what should be a proper exegesis of this text, and if you have any others that are commonly misused and abused by popular speakers.
Sure.
Well, can I maybe go through the text a little bit for people that may be a little bit unfamiliar, or you just heard the story, you know, you know the names David and Goliath. Maybe you don't know the whole the whole thing.
Can I set it up a little bit?
Oh, yeah. In fact, let's so I don't have to interrupt you mid-sentence. Let's do that when we return from our first commercial break.
Okay.
And if anybody has a question, you may send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.
We'll be right back.
Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, executive director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show. But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders, far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia.
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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world. Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.
I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan.
Area.
Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight-volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.
Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, that's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them Joe Royligan, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.
Greetings, this is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm group, and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program. SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.
We can be reached at securecommgroup .com, that's securecommgroup .com. But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner, Eric Liddell, remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God. I sensed that same God-given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com, that's nhpbc .com.
You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672, that's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
God bless you.
I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island. I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my long-time friend and brother, Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.
I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for reformed Christian literature for decades now, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com, I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.
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Tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook.
Baptist Church, a Christ-centered, gospel-driven church looking to spread the gospel in the Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship.
For details, visit lindbrookbaptist .org, that's l-y-n-brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the Lord's blessing in the knowledge of himself.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.
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That's royaldiadem .com. Please mention Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Dr. Joe Lassardo and we are discussing the theme, You're Not David or Are You?, and we were just about to have Dr. Lassardo exegete the passages regarding David and Goliath to begin with that have been misused, perhaps well-intentioned, but still nonetheless misused and perhaps even trivialized by this misuse by not only televangelists and popular authors but even average pastors.
And remember if you want to ask a question of your own, the email address is ChrisOrensen at gmail .com. But if you could, Pastor Joe? Sure. Yeah, I like that word,.
Trivialized. I think it's better—it more accurately nails it as opposed to misused. That's really the danger of, in a sense, dumbing down one of the most important.
Stories in the Scripture. Yeah, in fact, you and I both agreed before the show that as bad as an application as Joel Osteen gave to the story of David and Goliath, it was probably the best I've ever heard him—the most biblically faithful approach to a sermon that I've ever heard.
From his lips. Yes, yes, exactly. I've heard far worse. All right, so 1 Samuel. The beginning of 1 Samuel introduces us, obviously, to Samuel, but the hero of the book comes in about chapter 16. We're introduced to this one David at this time.
He's just basically a shepherd, a teenager. He's from an obscure little town called Bethlehem. And in chapter 16, he's brought from the sheepfold, tending to his father Jesse's sheep, into the presence of the king.
Chapter 17, everything changes. Up to this point, David has not said a word, but literally overnight, as a result of the events of chapter 17, everything changes. Chapter 17 is interestingly laid out.
The first 11 verses show us that there's this attack mounting up between Israel and their primary nemesis, the Philistines. Israel is on one mountain, the Philistines on the other, the Valley of Elah between them.
And out of the midst of the Philistine camp comes this impressive figure. He's over nine feet tall. He's wearing 150 pounds of armor. He has a 12-foot spear in his hand, and he's defiantly boasting against God and the armies of God, a Goliath of Gath.
He challenges Israel to send forth a representative to fight him in this, basically, this winner-take-all battle royale. And the challenge comes forth, but there's no one who takes the challenge. And as far as the people are concerned, this is why they chose their king, who at that time was Saul, because he was a tall man.
He was a man who stood above the crowd. But even in his height, it was no match for the Philistine giant. So Goliath mocks, he calls the children of Israel, he calls them followers of Saul, very much pictured like Satan, serpent-like in his words, boastful.
He's wearing the scaled armor. He's denigrating Yahweh, the God of Israel. He's denigrating the army of Israel. And he basically wants to make them his captive, his slaves. And that is Satan's goal for humanity is to enslave us.
Come verse 12, we're introduced now David. This brings a literary relief to the tension that the first 11 verses build as they describe Goliath. And now we're going to be introduced to this one son of Jesse, who is going to be the hero of the story.
Jesse, the father of David, sends David to the battlefield. And that's the providential circumstances that God arranges. Basically, his father tells him, David, go check on your brothers. They're going out to war.
Bring them food. Report back to me how they're doing. He goes out. These were the providential circumstances that God used to bring David to the battlefield. And just at the right time, he happens to hear Goliath's threats.
Goliath had been making the same threats for 40 days. No one stood up. Saul, the king, Israel, coward in fear. In verse 24 of the chapter, it says, all the men of Israel, when they saw the man, meaning Goliath, they fled from him and were much afraid.
David, however, sees things very differently than the rest of the Israelites. He sees it as a challenge, not merely on physical terms, but on theological terms. And so David speaks up for the very first time in the Bible, the very, very first time in verse 26.
I don't know. And then the person says, well, my broker is EF Hutton. And EF Hutton says, and all the people lean in. Well, this is that moment when David, the one who you're waiting for, the hero, first time he speaks and he says these words, he says, for who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?
And you see David's worldview is different. He sees the enemy, not as physical, but as spiritual. He sees him as threatening, bringing a reproach to Israel's God. He calls him an uncircumcised Philistine, meaning that he doesn't have spiritual power.
He has power. He has an armor. He has a spear. He has his threats. You look on the outward. He's a man to be feared. But David sees the heart. He's uncircumcised. He's ungodly. He's not in covenant with God and he has no spiritual power.
And I think here you can glean your first lesson. We can glean as Christians our first lesson. And that is understanding the world with the right theological framework enables us to be bolder and less fearful.
I've heard it said great theology is at the root of a God honoring life. And if we really believe what the Bible teaches, it's going to affect how we live, right? So if you really believe Jesus overcame the world, well, you won't fear what the world can do.
If you really believe that Jesus defeated sin and death, then you won't fear death anymore. So your theology has very practical effects. And that's certainly a lesson that we as believers can learn from the story.
It's the first of a few that I have here.
Well, let's see. We have a listener named Troy in Hackensack, New Jersey. Just out of curiosity,.
How far is Hackensack from Wayne? From Wayne, about 20 minutes.
Okay. Well, Troy, if you don't have a biblically sound church home of your own, we obviously strongly recommend you visit Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne. But Troy says, can you recommend a book or perhaps even a documentary video or a sermon where most of the major ways that evangelicals have misused texts are present so that we can be more on the lookout for these things when they come up, perhaps even in our own churches, to make sure that we are not led in the wrong direction?
Wow, that would be an excellent resource if that exists.
Yeah, it would be.
Do you know, Chris?
No, I don't.
That would be excellent. Anyone looking for a PhD thesis?
In fact, I have to ask Pastor Steve Brown of Hope Reform Presbyterian Church in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, because I interviewed him on a topic that may—he may have had a resource that inspired him to do this topic, which is Lies We Believe.
And so, therefore, I think that perhaps he can recommend a resource. I'll have to ask him about it.
Yeah, or Cumberland Valley may be able to, if Dixie reaches out to them, they may know of one. Yeah, but that would be an excellent resource. If it does exist, I'm not aware. But I would say to Troy to keep listening to the pastor of your church, or I say this to anyone, and if you hear more about yourself than you hear about Christ, that's concerning, whether it's an Old Testament passage or a New Testament passage for that matter.
It's not that we—look, the Scripture was written for our edification, the Scripture was written for our instruction, our correction, rebuke. Yes, all that is true, but ultimately everything points to Christ, and unless that is the main thrust of the preaching in your church, then it could be that they are misusing, or rather trivializing, some texts.
Of Scripture. Well, why don't you get on to another one of the examples that you intended?
Yeah, so we have Goliath breathing these threats. Then on top of that, the text goes on and talks about David's own brother, his older brother, Iliab, accuses David of—accuses his motives, which seems strange, but in the midst of it, David's like fighting not only this Philistine giant, Goliath, this picture of Satan incarnate, but his own brother is resisting him, and then his own king, Saul, basically says, you're not qualified to do this, David.
But David is not dismayed by any of the opposition, and instead he goes back to his past, and he sees God's faithfulness in the past, and in verses 34 to 36 of the chapter—I'll just read 36—David points back to his time as a shepherd, when he was guarding the lambs of the flock, and the lions and the bears came, and how he was able to overcome them.
And in verse 36, he says, your servant has struck down both lions and bears. This uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, for he has defied the armies of the living God. So David found his strength by looking back on God's goodness to him in the past.
In verse 37, he says, the Lord who delivered me from the paw of the lion, from the paw of the bear, will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine. So in David's mind, it was just like Goliath was no more than a predator, like a lion or a bear, and he had already defeated those.
And we can certainly learn a lesson from that as well, as we glean this personal lesson for ourselves, that the instances in our lives in the past where we were challenged, where we were even in fear, and the Lord overcame it.
He enabled us to overcome. The Lord was using that to increase our faith, to train us to respond in reliance to him in the bigger test, so that we'd be ready for the bigger tests. In God's economy, there is no experience in your life that's wasted.
And we see this by precept in Romans chapter 5, verses 3 and 4, where the Apostle Paul writes, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put to shame.
So why, what is—.
Are you there, Joe? You disconnected.
—capacity or another, whether it's a physical affliction, whether it's issues of family members who disappoint us, friends lost jobs, so many different areas of our life that we suffer, we can rejoice.
Why? Not because we're gluttons for punishment, but we can rejoice in suffering because we know suffering will make us better. We don't ask for it, but we know that it's going to produce—.
Joe, do you know why you keep cutting—.
Back in seats.
Do you know why you keep cutting out?
Yeah, go ahead.
There's somebody calling you that you keep cutting out. I'm just curious.
Chris?
Yes, can you hear me, Joe?
Did I lose you?
No, can you hear me? I can hear you. Well, I guess I am going to go to an early break because—. Hello, Joe, can you hear me?
I don't know if I lost you, Chris.
All right, well, we are going to an early break, and please, folks, if you have a question, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
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Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. So, Dr. Joe, you were in the middle of giving us some popular examples of how famous stories in the scripture have been trivialized and misused.
Of course, we are giving the benefit of the doubt that this is most often being done unintentionally with good intentions, and preachers may have heard other preachers do the same thing, and they enjoyed hearing it laid out in the way that they perpetuated the poor exegesis, which is actually eisegesis.
But tell us, pick up where you left off. I'm sorry about the technical difficulty. Yeah, so,.
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I think a lot of times it's just propagating what others are doing. You're hearing these sermons from others, and just kind of something sounds encouraging or sounds like it'll edify people, and you just kind of carry it along.
That's how error is passed on, sometimes even with the best of motives. But yeah, so I'm not sure how much I got in there, but basically, we're looking at another lesson, gleaning another lesson from the story of David and Goliath, the most popular story, certainly in the Old Testament.
And it's when Saul, the king, is seeking to discourage David, and David looks back to how God delivered him in the past. And in verse 37, he says, the Lord who delivered me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine.
And in David's mind, he just sees Goliath just as another predator. God took care of me in the past, and he's going to take care of me again. And the lesson there for us, and I believe this is a good lesson that we ought to glean from the human being, David, as he exercises faith, is that we can look back at how God delivered us in the past, and that his faithfulness to us trains us to respond in reliance to him in the tests that we might face in the future.
So we're ready. In God's economy, no experience of ours is wasted. I talked about suffering, how suffering, in Romans 5, suffering produces endurance, character, and hope. Why do we rejoice in suffering?
Because we know God will use it in our lives to produce endurance, character, and hope. We don't ask for suffering, but neither do we complain, because we know the good that God's going to bring through it.
So that's certainly a lesson that we could learn from this story. Another one is David, Saul finally says, okay, go ahead, face Goliath, but here's my armor. It does, but Saul's armor doesn't fit David.
David had not tested Saul's armor. So David goes out and he chooses the weapons of a shepherd, and he's going to face this Goliath with the same thing he used to prevail over bears and lions. There's a lesson for us there as well, that fighting the world with the world's weapons never works for God's people.
David understood that the battle was not against a physical Goliath. He was not going to engage Goliath on his terms with swords and spears. Had he tried to do that, he would have lost. And he also knew ultimately that this was not a physical battle, but it was a spiritual one, that the battle belongs to the Lord.
And certainly those kinds of things can be a great encouragement to the Christian, who's, as you said earlier, Chris, is facing those torturous moments of life, or making a life-changing decision, or facing some physical enemy, or another individual, or a physical pain, or a temptation, or any number of things that a Christian might face can take great encouragement from the example of David, and it is a genuine application that we can get.
From the text. Okay, we have Jacoby in Rye, New York, and Jacoby says, or Jacoby says, I've heard the clip after Joel Osteen where the pastor was rebuking people who imported themselves into the Bible, but are not we certainly to do that when we read of tragic figures in the Bible that reap what they sow, and either have gone through horrific trials in their life as a.
Result of their sin, or die because of them? Yeah, absolutely. I hope that's what I'm doing here, is exactly that. I think the two clips set up the two extremes, bringing yourself in as the hero of Scripture on one hand, and then on the other hand, everything is Christ and there's no application, and that's just as dangerous.
I've heard that kind of preaching as well. Basically, okay, you preach this standard, no one can live up to this standard, Christ did it for you, go home. We praise God for what Christ did, now go home and continue living as you lived, and that's not the case.
I mean, all of Scripture is profitable for our teaching, instruction, correction, rebuke, training, and righteousness, so we ought to certainly apply what is a right application of the Scripture as we read it.
Now, we don't want people to misunderstand Jacobi's question, because you and I, we both very vociferously and passionately condemn the Word of Faith movement, which teaches that the only reason a Christian would ever suffer in this life is because of disobedience or lack of faith, so we don't want people to draw that conclusion either, but at the same time, we should examine ourselves when we're going through something horrific to rule that out, because it can happen because of our activity.
I mean, people die of AIDS, typically, unless it's a medical accident of some kind. They die of AIDS because they are rebelling against God and involved in immoral sexual activity, and we could go on and on and on with other things.
People who drive drunk may be permanently injured or killed in an automobile accident, but we just have to be careful not to automatically draw that conclusion, because that's heresy, especially if we are doing it in the life of somebody else,.
Because we could be bearing false witness, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it's the Christian posture in the midst of suffering to first examine yourself, Lord, what are you teaching me? Are you chastening me for some sin, or are you directing the course in a direction you want me to go?
But then realizing, too, that certainly the whole lesson of the book of Job is that suffering is part of the fall, part of this world and the way it is, and no one will escape.
Suffering in this world. Okay, we have Louise, another New Yorker in Port Chester, New York, and Louise asks, can you point out a text in the Bible that you think is the verse that is most often frequently misused and twisted by televangelists and pastors?
One that comes to.
Mind, and it would be obvious, it would be linked to this, actually, is, you know, the one that says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. That's one that is often abused, particularly by the word of faith people.
They would take that and apply it to all sorts of things that it does not apply to. That stands out on the top of my head, but there are many that are misapplied. That's a big one. Another one, Jeremiah, I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you, and, you know, it's the one that people have up on their refrigerator, you know, as encouragement.
Well, that was actually said by Jeremiah, God through Jeremiah, to the people right before he was going to send them into exile. So people are encouraging one another, like God's going to get you through this, you're, you know, you're the head, not the tail, and all this stuff.
And meanwhile, it's like, no, I'm going to protect you in the midst.
Of your suffering. So those are two examples. I think the one that I have personally heard the most from unbelievers who love to try to catch a Christian in disobedience to their own Bible, a verse that is probably one of the most well-known verses by unbelievers, people who are completely biblically illiterate, have heard this verse, not that they understand it rightly, but that's the reason I'm bringing it up.
They don't understand it rightly. Matthew 7, 1, judge not that ye be not judged. Obviously, the whole point of this portion of Scripture is that we must not be guilty of hypocritical judgment, not that we are never to judge.
And what I always like to remind people who are accusing me of violating this, remember, judge not that ye not be judged, you are such a hypocrite, you are a mean-spirited, horrible person. I say to them, what are you doing right now to me?
Aren't you judging me? Now, if I was a mean-spirited, hypocritical, bigoted person, should you not point me out of my sins in a loving and compassionate and patient way, albeit still bold way? You know, if we are never to judge the actions of someone, we would be sitting by silently while all kinds of horrific and barbaric sins are being committed.
In our midst. So, now we—. Yeah, that's a common one we get out at the abortion clinic, when we stand out in front, people who walk by or drive by, judge not lest ye be judged.
We hear that all the time. Interesting. Yes, and would they say that if you were rebuking somebody for physically harming their child, their child that was already born, six-year-old child, and they see you in public slapping that child around, uh, you know, would they just sit there silently and say, well, I can't judge that person?
They would probably call 9 -1 -1. Yeah, exactly. Now, would this be in the same category as the stories about David and other classic stories, especially from the Old Testament, that we hear misused and twisted?
Would this misinterpretation of judge not that ye not be judged be in the same realm of misuse?
No, I don't think so. I think it's different, because we're talking more about how the world is using the Scripture against us with Matthew 7. I think this is more how individuals, and even good preachers, you know, even godly men who are just, again, propagating this trivia, trivializing the story, because they heard someone else do it.
So, no, I wouldn't put them in the same category. Well, what would you like to bring up now for us to explore? Okay, so just going on, as far as some other lessons that we can learn from the story that are genuinely gleaned from the text, as the story comes down, obviously, David does fight Goliath, and the buildup of that whole thing is 47 verses of buildup, and then in two verses, the battle's over.
It's like a first round knockout, you know, all this buildup. I remember many, many years ago, when I was a young Christian, there was a great heavyweight battle between then and unknown Mike Tyson against Leon Spinks.
And everyone was building that battle up, you know, and how would it go 15 rounds, and Tyson knocked Spinks out in like 90 seconds, you know. So it's kind of like that. He takes this rock, and he crushes the skull of Goliath.
He eats first round knockout after all that buildup. He slings, he puts the stone in the sling, and in one stone hits the hits the forehead and Goliath falls to the ground and is down. A beautiful, by the way, a beautiful picture of what Christ does to Satan in the cross, in the gospel.
If you recall, if you go back to Genesis chapter 3, verse 15, that very first messianic promise, the seed of the woman here, David, is crushing the head of the serpent, where the serpent's standing in for David.
This is really fleshed out well in Jim Hamilton's work called The Skull-Crushing Seed of the Woman. Are you familiar with that, Chris?
Actually, I'm not.
Ah, it's excellent. Jim Hamilton's at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he does a—it's free online, I think it's about a 25-page thesis, and he carries you through from Genesis 3, 15, all the way through the book of Revelation, following this messianic promise of a—and it's called The Skull-Crushing Seed of the Woman, how the seed of the woman is in situations crushing the head of the serpent, and David and Goliath is in the midst of that.
So I do think the story does lead us to look back to that first messianic promise, and then again to look ahead to Christ fulfilling the promise when he crushes Satan in the cross. Excellent work.
Well, you've got to give me Jim's contact information. I've got to get him on the show.
Oh, I think he'd be great. He's a Hebrew scholar. I don't have it, actually, but I'm sure you could look him up. He does work with Nine Marks, and you'd probably contact them through them. They do a podcast.
Yeah. Yeah, check that out. I'd encourage all the listeners as well, if they're not familiar with that work. It's just very encouraging to see this theme, which is introduced to us early in the book of Genesis and repeated time and time again throughout the Scripture all the way through the book of Revelation.
Excellent thesis.
Okay, we have Wesley in Southampton, Long Island, New York, and Wesley says, Do you think some of the problem with misusing texts of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, is a failure to recognize that God was Trinity in the Old Testament?
That wasn't something that started in the New Covenant. And therefore, there are times when we may miss the fact that it's Jesus Christ being spoken of in the Old Testament Scriptures, rather than the Father specifically, which may totally mess up the way that we are interpreting this.
That's a good question.
Do you have any comment on that? Yeah. Yeah, it's an excellent question, and I think a good observation. Certainly, we—. Even from Wesley. Even from Wesley. Wesley, yes. Thank you, Wesley. As Christians, we can look back, right?
We have the full revelation of God in the New Covenant, in the New Testament, and we ought to. That gives us a light to look back at those shadows of the Old Testament. Let's say, for example, an unbelieving Jewish person who reads their Old Testament merely in the light of the God of Israel, thinking of the God of Israel apart from his Son and his Spirit, would miss, for sure.
Absolutely. It's an excellent observation.
Now, there are people, especially non-Reform people—sometimes Reform people can be guilty as charged when it comes to anal retentivism, and can be overly abusive—or abrasive is a better word to use—abrasive to those that are not exegeting things exactly the way a Reform person thinks is the correct interpretation of the Scriptures.
But you have, probably far more often, Christians who have a lackadaisical attitude towards precision when it comes to understanding the Bible. In fact, I've even seen this quote repeated a number of times on social media when I am promoting a specific interview and topic—not yours, it didn't happen with yours, but it has happened before with others—where, oh, when are you going to do a show on how many angels can dance on the head of a pen?
There are people who, even pastors, who think that somehow by delving into these things, by being critical of what we heard by Joel Osteen, we are sucking the joy out of the Christian life like a vacuum cleaner, and our being sticklers for the letter of the law is, to them, just a cosmic killjoy.
How do you respond to people like that?
Well, I would ask them, what kind of joy are you looking for? Because if you're looking for just kind of a temporal joy—you want to send people out up on a high so you give them this pep rally and they go out and they feel better—well, that's fine.
If that's what you want, you can get that from Tony Robbins or any of these motivational speakers that are out there. Go to them. You're probably better off. At least they're not even claiming to bring the Bible in.
They're just there to send you out feeling better about yourself. But if you really want true joy, true joy is found in the Gospel. And if all of Scripture points us ultimately to Christ and the Gospel, and that's where true joy is found, then what is temporal joy compared to that?
You know, compared to the deep abiding joy of knowing that Jesus defeats sin and death, and that we get to share in the spoils of that victory, because greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world, that we participate in union with Christ and in His conquering the seed of the serpent.
There's such great joy in understanding and seeing these things throughout the Scripture. But yeah, I mean, look, if you want a shallow Christian experience that may even not amount to much in the afterlife, there's a lot of places you can go to hear that.
But if you really want a deep abiding joy, then dive into the Scriptures, understand them as the Holy Spirit intended for them to be understood. It's not us being sticklers. It's what God has prescribed for us in the Word.
Yeah, I have appreciated the way that Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has approached this situation on a number of occasions, where he has to ask his debate opponent or somebody with whom he is disagreeing.
It might not be something as formal as a moderated debate, but it might even be just an exchange, a conversation, when he senses an indignant response when the person is accused by Dr. White of mishandling the text and being guilty of eisegesis.
And they make that kind of an accusation where he is really going overboard with his micromanagement of the Word of God and being overly critical and so on. He has said to people like this, and I've heard him say this on a number of occasions, what would you do if you heard your own words, whether in a sermon or in a book you wrote, perhaps, being totally twisted to mean something 180 degrees to the opposite of what you intended?
Would you still be that lax about it? And more times than not, they will at least temporarily be silenced for a while to ponder that. Because people very often do not reflect on things, on a whole number of issues in that way, where they have to ponder prayerfully about how they would respond if not only they were being slandered because of things we've preached or wrote or written, but even if somebody, perhaps even somebody that we love deeply, a spouse or what have you, is being misrepresented in public, you're not going to typically remain silent.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Okay, well, why don't we move on to another one of your examples?
Okay, so moving on in the story then, I want to get to actually the main point, the main application. What are we to get primarily from the story of David and Goliath? The main story of David and Goliath points to the defeat of sin and death by our champion, Jesus Christ.
But in saying that, that doesn't mean we ought to ignore the genuine application that we could get from the text, because Jesus defeats sin and death, right? But we get to share the spoils of that victory by faith.
So the text points to what was fulfilled in Christ, but then in our union with Christ, we participate. So there is a sense that we are David, but only secondarily. Christ is David, but we are secondarily David on the basis of our union with Christ.
Christ conquers for us so that we can become more like David. Because we have our hero, Jesus Christ, the new David, the greater David, and he has conquered the big giants of sin and death. We also, the scripture tells us, are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
But we have to get there the right way. It's not a one-to-one correlation where, okay, David did this, and now my problem at work, which is so minor, is my Goliath. It's not that, but yet at the same time, my argument is that the text is moral.
It is inspirational. We should aspire to be like David. We should emulate David's faith in the story. Think about it. David was willing to surrender his life to defend the glory of God. Are we willing to live for his glory?
Or are we going to be more like Saul in life, protecting ourselves, paralyzed against the powers that oppress us, giving in to temptation and fears and anxiety? Or are we going to live our life for the glory of God?
A faith like David will free us to make great exploits. And that way, the story does encourage us, but not like a pep rally. The story encourages us to live for the glory of God. And that, I think, is the driving concern of this whole text.
David's greatest concern in the text is in verse 46. This is the ultimate purpose of the whole thing. If anyone's listening, and you have your Bible open to chapter 17 of 1 Samuel, highlight verse 46, because this is the purpose for David slaying Goliath.
He says these words in verse 46. He says, "...that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, and that all this assembly may know that the Lord saves not with sword and spear, for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give it into your hands.".
And that's really, the story is less about David's courage and more about God's defense of weak people, that God's power is made perfect in weakness. That's all over the scriptures. It's all over. Some trust in chariots, others in horses, but we want trust in the name of our God.
The delight of the Lord is not in the strength of the horse, but the Lord takes pleasure in those who fear him. In the New Testament, Paul learns, "...my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.".
He says, "...therefore I will boast more gladly in my weakness, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.". That's the story of David and Goliath. David's victory brought more glory to God by his conquering Goliath through weak means, by faith, trusting in God.
And that's a precept that we find throughout the Old and New Testament.
That reminded me of something that I continue to witness that grieves me deeply. We have conservative so-called spokespersons like Sean Hannity warning conservatives and Republicans not to be so aggressive in their rhetoric when it comes to bringing an end to abortion.
He is beating the drum. You better allow for legal reasons for women to murder their babies, and of course Sean never uses that phrase, murder their babies. But he's basically pushing politicians, and I think that they definitely have an attentive listening ear to him.
I think Donald Trump does, and Donald Trump has weakened his view against the murder of unborn children. And Sean Hannity is functioning under the impression that the future of the United States is in our hands, and that we cannot simply trust in God for bringing about the outcome he desires in the midst of our obedience.
I'm not saying that, I'm not advocating that people just remain cloistered in their house and never get involved in evangelism and never get involved in outreach at abortion murder mills. I'm not talking about that.
I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't vote, but what I am saying is that we have to first obey God and trust him to do the right thing. And this nonsense about, in my opinion, it's nonsense, it's even beyond nonsense, where babies are being used as chess pieces to bring about political victory.
Well, you can murder this many babies, and you can murder this many babies when they're this stage of development. We gotta throw you a bone here. But, you know, we don't want the late-term abortions or the partial-birth abortions, but, you know, we'll be willing to allow you to slaughter other babies, and, you know, it's just—I don't know if it.
Outrages you as much as it outrages me. Yeah, no, it does. It does, and it is so anti-Christian. We know that God chooses the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He's never been interested in majorities.
He chooses the low, the despised in this world, the things that are not to bring to naught the things that are, so that no human being could boast, including no political party can boast. And I think that's really what the story of David and Goliath is.
I mean, you can certainly make an analogy to babies in the womb and their weakness. They're not going to be won over by a majority. The majority will not—it has to be the hand of God that would reverse any of the course that this country is going in when it comes to the murder of innocent babies.
And we have to go to our final break right now,.
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About this topic today. Yeah, basically the last point we left off on which is the story of David and Goliath points to the fact of the strength of God that not to trust in the means of this world, not to trust in the great armies or the great numbers of people, but to trust in the Lord who uses the weak, the low, the despised so that no human being would boast in his presence.
And I'll extend that to say that there is nowhere that that is more evident than in the gospel and the death and burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Just like David refused Saul's armor, David's son, Jesus Christ, encountered the devil taking on flesh, a poor, frail, stricken, smitten, and afflicted state.
He came from a despised town that no one ever expected, the little town of Bethlehem. He chose disciples that no one expected, and he chose a means to save his people that was weak. Who could have thought God on a cross, God in a tomb, right?
Nothing in this world ever looked so weak. Never had the enemy so miscalculated, however. And in the weapons that Christ used, poverty, reproach, suffering, death, a cross, ultimately were the very things that disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them.
That's what we, that's the encouragement and the application that we can get.
From the story of David and Goliath. Amen. We have an anonymous listener who says, there are people in my congregation who I have seen at Bible studies doing the same things that you are pointing out as error in this program.
How can we, according to your counsel as a pastor, gently and patiently and kindly seek to correct things that people have been repeating possibly for decades or whole lives without necessarily breaking friendships?
Yeah, that's not an easy.
Question. You don't want to break friendships. You also want to try to deal with things privately before you sit up in the Bible study and stop them from talking. Have a private conversation with them.
Try to, if they're constant, if it's the same individuals are constantly doing this, you can kind of take them aside and say, you know, we're not really going in that direction. I appreciate that you want to be involved in sharing, but maybe, you know, run it by me first or something like that.
Try to deal with it in a private and personal way as much as is possible. But I understand that's something that could happen, especially if your Bible study is not all with like-minded people and you have people from different churches involved in it.
And that also indicates that there is a danger when some churches, especially in our modern evangelical world, some churches just love giving an open mic to anybody in the church that has something to say.
And I can still vividly remember my friend James White was invited to a church to preach for a conference. And before they had Dr. White give his message, they opened up the floor for people to give praise reports and other personal comments that they've been experiencing.
And this woman literally spoke for nearly a half hour, cutting into Dr. White's time. And she was actually talking about how that she could not afford to send her son to college. But God told her to tell her son to just visit the college and sit in on classes and you'll get a college education for free.
And she was praising God for telling her to do that. Now, obviously, God didn't tell her to do that. God doesn't tell anybody to steal. So but I did just something that I wrote because I remember how annoyed I was.
I couldn't. And this was not a charismatic or crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It.
Is. It's it sounded to me more like it was like a home Bible study or something like that. But even there, you have to be careful. Know the people that are there and and maybe have some kind of policy as to who can and who cannot participate.
Could be based on church membership, for example. Members can participate. Others are welcome to come and listen, but only members can speak this way. You have some semblance of like mindedness in what shared.
Well, I really want you to have a final word if you have any events that Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey, that you want to promote or anything else that you want to say in about.
Three minutes time before we go off the air. I certainly invite people out. We have our worship service every Sunday at noon. We also have local Bible studies. So for that brother who's in Hackensack, I'm your neighbor.
I'm in TNAC. I'm literally I could walk over a bridge to Hackensack from my house in two minutes. So if you're up around us, contact us. We'd love to have you at least at our home group, if not the church.
If you're in the Wayne area, give us a call or if you're in the North Arlington area, Carney, Newark area. Also, let us know and you could be part of our church plant, which, praise God, is was planted six months before the lockdown, the COVID lockdown stuff.
And God has preserved and it has grown and is going to, God willing, constitute this summer as an independent church. And we're very happy about that process as well. That could be something we could talk about sometime, Chris.
Yeah, sure. Church planting.
Oh, yeah. I've done that before, but there's no limit on the number of times I could address that because it's an important issue. Yeah. And I just want to also remind our listeners that the website for Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey is BOLFellowship .org.
That's B-O-L, abbreviation for Bread of Life Fellowship .org. And once again, I want to remind our listeners, if you're a man in ministry leadership, please come to the next free biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon featuring Dr. Joel Beeky as our keynote speaker, who is founder and president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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Well, I want to thank you again, Dr. Joe Lasardo, for being such an exquisite guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.