Jesus in the Bible and the Quran

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Good evening. Greetings to our Muslim friends and our Christian brethren. My name is Chris Larsen, the host of the former radio program, Iron Shepherd's Archetype. Last Friday, or actually that's Monday, it was temporarily off the air because the station was sold to an old Spanish network.

The new owners, interestingly enough, have been getting such a bombardment of phone calls that the old Spanish network is interested in having me back on the program even though I'm in early English. And it will be interesting to see if I get the program on the Spanish station because this will be another audience that doesn't understand what.

I'm talking about.

I'm so delighted and I'm especially grateful for Imam Zayed, for accepting the invitation to participate in something like this at very, very late hours, very graciously and eagerly accepting our invitation.

I am so thrilled to see all of you here. We even have a visitor from Australia here today and he didn't fly just for this, but he had to actually stay in the apartment on vacation time to be here with us.

But as I said, I'm Chris Larsen, I'm an arms shop designer, and please pray that the program quickly returns to the airwaves. The moderator for this evening is a professor at Ford University, David Wood, and he is also with Act 17 Apologetics Ministries.

So he is going to be moderating tonight and he will be giving you the introductions of our participants. And we will be at some point midway through this event taking a voluntary collection for the church that's allowing to use this building for free for the second time.

Both of our apologists here, both Imam Zayed and Dr. White have bowed out of receiving any monies from this collection. So this will go to the church here, the United Presbyterian Church. If you're making a check, make that to the United Presbyterian Church.

All the money is going to the church. Other than that, which I can put this stuff in my pockets. But we just thank you all for being here tonight. And David Wood, he will take over the event from here.

Good evening, everyone. Is this mic on? I can't tell if the press is in a good place. It is very low.

Who knows how to turn this up?

Check, check, check.

The sound is not going to be good.

It's not a problem.

It shouldn't be over.

It's great performance.

Can we turn this up? All right. We'll just speak loudly until it's squared away. I'd like to thank everyone for coming out to this dialogue on Jesus in the Qur 'an and the Bible. Christians and Muslims agree on a lot of things about Jesus.

We agree that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he is the Messiah, that he performed.

Numerous miracles, that he's going to be returned one day.

But we do have some fundamental differences in our beliefs about Jesus, and it should be very interesting to discuss those here this evening. Representing Christianity this evening will be Dr. James R. White, who is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona.

He is the author of numerous books, a professor and an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than 75 moderated public debates and dialogues with leading proponents of Islam, Roman Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism.

Representing the Islamic youth this evening is Imam Saeed Saeed, who is religious life advisor for the Muslim campus ministry and office of the university chaplain at Columbia University in New York City.

He has been affiliated with Columbia for more than 10 years and is an alumnus of Teachers.

College.

He has also taught psychology in India and the United States. He retired as an educational administrator in 1996. I'm just going to cover the format of this exchange, and I'm going to try to stay out.

Of the way.

We'll begin with 25 minute opening presentations from both of our participants, which will be followed by a 12 minute response from each side. After that, we'll have, when I say 5 minutes, I really mean 10 minutes, but if I say 10 minutes, it will only come back 15 minutes later, so somewhere in between 5 and 10 minutes.

Each participant will give, will begin by asking a few questions, people would direct it to, and those questions that are, so I'll introduce Dr. Weiss who will begin with a 25 minute presentation on Christianity's view of Jesus.

Jesus in the Old Testament and the Apostolic Witness

Good evening. How many of you were here about 5 months ago? Thank you very much for taking the time to enter into this discussion with us this evening. Jesus in the Bible and in the Quran is the Christianity in Islam.

Both faiths believe Jesus was one of the most important people in all of human history. Yet the two faiths differ completely on who Jesus was and what the accomplishments that the greatest way that we can show respect and love when we disagree with one another.

I do not accept the modernistic idea of differences with one another. The way to show respect for someone is to honestly air those differences and to discuss them in an attitude of mutual respect. So I hope that's what is accomplished here this evening.

Muslims believe that the prophets and Jesus were all Muslims. They believe this on the basis of the Quranic teaching. But the earliest documentable sources to present the Muslim view themselves, the earliest sources that we can examine, are prophetic in nature.

That is the Jewish scriptures, the Tanakh, the Old Testament, speak of one who would.

Come.

When we combine, we see that this one would be a Jewish prophet who would speak the words of Yahweh, as we see in Deuteronomy 18 and 18. That he would be called, as we see in the second Psalm. That he would suffer before his final exile in Isaiah 53 reveals to us.

And finally, number four, for a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us. And the government will write, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Now, only because of where they're found in the order of excessive writings.

But that is incorrect. Paul's epistles of all probability predate these. What do these writings, closest in time to Jesus' ministry, tell us about well-being? How do the creedal statements of the Christian faith, 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 3 -6, many people, even liberal scholars, believe that these words come from within just a few years of the actual crucifixion of Jesus.

There we read, for our deliberation, that is of first importance, what I also receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures. And that he was buried. And that he was raised on the third day, according to the scriptures.

And that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. So this earliest confession of the Christian people, what is it focused upon? The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the New Testament presentation.

Likewise, when Paul went to the Church of Galatia, he said,. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, remember the Old Testament text, born of women, born under the law, so he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

What do we see with these words? Jesus was truly a man, he was born of a woman, while we reference to the virgin birth there. And that he came to redeem. He is the Redeemer and a Savior. Chapter 8, Shema.

The confession of the Jewish people. Shema is played on Yahweh, called the name Yahweh of Israel. Jehovah, or Yahweh, is one. Jehovah is our God. And it is our Son, that's what it says. Therefore, concerning the eating of things, sacrifice, and idols, we know there is no such thing as an idol.

And that there is no God but one. For even if there are sons in thee, there are many gods and many lords. Yet for us, for the followers of Jesus, there is but one God, the Father, and we exist through him.

And one Lord, Hais Kudios, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through him. Now it's very important that the early believers remain one, but they are attempting to express what it means to recognize this one who has come, these Old Testament prophecies.

And here you see that this Lord, the very same term that's used with Yahweh in the Old Testament, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, this one Lord is Jesus. And it is by him are all things,.

And we exist through him.

Those are not the words you use of a mere man. In Philippians chapter 2, verses 5 through 11, we have what many scholars believe is one of the early hymns of the Christian faith. Christians have always been singers, and this is probably one of the early stanzas of one.

Listen to these words. You must have the same mindset among yourselves as in Christ Jesus, who, this is where the music begins, who, although he eternally existed, in the very form of God, did not consider that equality he had with God the Father something to be held on to in all promises.

But instead, he made himself nothing by taking on the very form of a slave and being made into likeness. And having entered into human existence, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death.

Even the death won not, because of this, God the Father, and bestowed on him the name which we love every day. So that the mention of Jesus Christ is Lord putting us all together. This is what the early Christians sang, because this is what the early Christians thought of Jesus.

When the Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Galatia, and he described Jesus, he said, he is the image of the image of the firstborn does not mean the first created, the return of the Catechist means the one.

After the preeminence.

For by him, he was by Jesus, visible and invisible, from the throne to the dominion, and in him. Now, I hear he said that Jesus is the one, not only with himself, but with all being and all being after two, looking for the blessed hope.

And the imperative of glory,.

God's Savior, who gave himself for us, for himself and people, zealous for good deeds. So you note, that we have here not only the deity of Christ, but this is tied together with his saving actions as well.

Hence, the early stockages teach that Jesus was truly a man, set by the Father, who had eternally accepted was the creator of all, giving himself all to God's people. So when we look to the Gospels, we find the same truth is illustrated in ways appropriate to the audiences of each of the Gospels themselves.

Each of the Gospels adapts the history of Jesus to a different audience. Mark is writing to a different audience, for example, and that's one of the reasons there are.

Differences between them in the length of the news,.

The stories that they tell, etc., etc. Consider the Gospel of Mark, for example. Jesus is plainly presented as the Messiah.

He is located in.

History, in specific locations, in Galilee and Jerusalem. He was someone who lived in history. You can identify him as predicting his as well as his resurrection. The cross is central to Mark's message, just as it was to Paul's message.

He forgives sins, something only God can do in Mark 2.

He says,.

There is none good but God alone, speaking self-referencing. He wasn't saying he himself was. He identifies himself as the Son of Man, the divine figure from the book of Daniel, Mark chapter 14. And so clear with that identification the Jews tore their clothing.

Why do we need any more witnesses? They understood exactly who Jesus is. The other synoptic Gospels,.

Matthew and Luke,.

Likewise present Jesus as a historical figure, Messiah, prophet, Son of Man, Son of God, sacrifice for sins. Matthew, of course, will in many places.

Look at this and honestly recognize this.

And talk about this openly together if we truly respect one another. We have to look at this. For example, Surah 5, verse 16, but over five hundred, and no one knows, nor does anyone.

Of God's knowledge.

Of the Father, for these five hundred years to be served, plainly teach in flesh. Yet John in the first century and was honored as scribe. The book begins when he already existed as God. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.

He was in the beginning in him was the Word of men. Then in the 14th verse of that first chapter we have his words. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth. And there in the graphic you see the earliest record we have of these words from manuscript.

P75 from.

AD 175. I put that up there for someone who came along later. This is what the Gospel of John has for us. The same book closes on this answer and said to him, which he was, his response was to recognize him as well.

He explained to him Jesus' voluntary self. Jesus' life is not taken from him. He gives it of his own accord. As in Cardinal Christie, he voluntarily made himself a reputation. Same thing here. For this reason the Father loves him.

No one has taken this commandment by Jesus. Jesus says to John, please.

Notice, he did not say.

That. No, he says, I.

Said this.

And Jesus' words are personal. He doesn't say, no one because the earliest sermons of the followers of Jesus, and they confirm these same claims. That Jesus was born and gave his life and was eternal.

Chapter 2. Why don't I put a picture of myself I was examining. It contains the very same section in that very same sermon where we read such things as this Jesus God raised up as well as Christ. This Jesus.

So here we have again proving to us that this was the teaching of the Christians from the very beginning. So in summary, the Jesus, the Bible, eternally existed as the second person, his eternal son. He was born of the Virgin Mary as a prophet.

Lived at a particular time. Performed miracles. Proclaimed the kingdom of God. Identified himself as the son of God. The source of eternal life. He gave his life voluntarily as a sacrifice for sins and was buried.

And rose again.

So in a few minutes we have left just a few comments. I don't know if you can remember this so you can do the primary presentation of this, but what are the issues? What are the differences we need to look at?

The Qur 'an's name for Jesus, Isa, appears in 25.

But only.

Once in all the Qur 'an does Jesus speak from an identifiable.

Location.

That being his cradle, in Surah 19, verse 30. That section you're going to get in verse, ayah 27. And like she brought the babe for people carrying human remains. They said, O Mary, truly an amazing thing has thou brought.

O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste. But she pointed the babe. They said, How can you talk to one who is a child of the cradle? He said, that is the child of the cradle.

I am indeed a servant of the law. He hath given me revelation, made me a prophet, and he hath made me blessed, wheresoever I be. He hath made me kind, so peace is on me today. Such was Jesus, the son of Mary.

It is the statement of truth about which they vainly dispute.

It is not befitting.

Of the majesty of the law that he should be yet a son.

Glory be to him.

When he determines a marriage. He always says to it be, and it is. This is a way of history. But the sects differ among themselves in woeful human beings because of the coming judgment of it. Now I'm sure we'll be discussing a lot about this, but one of the things that I would point out is that the story of Jesus speaking from the cradle does not come from any time near Jesus.

It comes from the 5th century, 5th or 6th century Arabic infancy gospel. And here is the actual quote that is found. We have found in the recording of what Josephus, the chief priest who was at the time of Christ, and then said he was tithes, that this man said that Jesus spake when he was in the cradle.

He said to Mary, his mother, in the most different spirit, Mary, I am Jesus, the son of God. The word was that was born. According as the angel Gabriel gave the good news that my father has sent me to the salvation of the world.

Now this does not come from Palestine. It does not come from a source that we can trust that had anything to do with the creation of Jesus. But it is interesting that we find this in the Arabic infancy gospel and we find a similar story.

In the Quran. Beyond this.

One incident, Jesus is never located in history in the Quran. He speaks as a disembodied voice primarily as an argument either for the prophet Muhammad or against the Christians of Muhammad's day. This Jesus who is more of an argumentative person is strikingly different than the Jesus of the Bible.

And if you have never.

Read both books,.

You might not recognize that. You've only read the Quran, but reading the New Testament would be difficult. If you've never read the New Testament or read the Quran, you find these striking differences.

To the Christian reader, the Jesus of the Quran only bears surface similarities to the Jesus of the Gospels. He is a monotheistic prophet in both. Yes, he's born of a virgin and he works miracles. But the essence of Jesus' teaching and ministry seems totally unfamiliar to the author of the Quran.

Could this be due to the fact.

That Muhammad, most.

Muslims would tell you, was illiterate and he did not have access to the New Testament or the Old Testament in his own language? Because the earliest manuscripts we have of either the Old Testament or the New Testament come from the end of the 9th century, long after Muhammad had died.

And so he didn't have access to the original languages or his own language, even if he could have read, he would not have had access to these particular things. And it's interesting to mention of working with miracles.

Notice here.

In Surah 349, And appoint him an apostle to children of Israel with this message, I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, and that I may for you outplay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, if it becomes a bird, by Allah's name.

This idea of Jesus making flayed birds come alive comes from the 2nd century Gnostic Gospels, which again is not a part of the historical evidence concerning Jesus, but comes from a very different world view, and I don't think anyone here Muslim or Christian alike would embrace any of the Gnostic worldview, because it's not monotheistic, God is not the creator of all things.

The Gnostics are far removed from all of us as far as the worldview goes. And of course one of the primary differences between these two truths is that we get to observe 4157. That they said in both, we killed Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made clear.

Those who differ therein are full of doubt, and of no certain knowledge. The only conjecture of all, for it was sure he had been killed, if not made Allah raise him up unto himself, and Allah's exalted power lies.

Now this one text has resulted in all sorts of different interpretations as to what is actually being said here. What does this mean? Was someone substituted for Jesus? And so on and so forth. Maybe when we get into that this evening, it is an important text to discuss.

But I want to get to two of the texts right here. This one, Psalm 72, helps us to see how important this subject is. They do blaspheme who say Allah is Christ, the Son of Mary. But said Christ, O children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.

Whoever joins other gods in Allah, Allah will forbid him to do it, and the fire will be his abode. There will for wrongdoers be no doubt. They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a trinity, but there is no god except Allah.

But they insist not for those who blaspheme barely agree with this apology. They fall to blasphemers alone. Very clearly, the author of the Quran believes that the trinity violates monotheism. That he is saying that Allah is one god amongst three, and yet that is not what Christians have ever believed in the doctrine of trinity here.

What finally concerns me is Surah 5, Verse 16. And behold, Allah will say, O Jesus, Son of Mary, this I'll say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation.

Of the poor. It sounds.

Like this text is saying the doctrine of trinity.

Is Allah married.

To Jesus, so Allah takes a wife and has a son named Jesus. I bet many Muslims believe that's what they believe, but of course that's never been what Christians have ever believed about the doctrine of trinity.

Even Ibn Kathir, one of the very early commentators in his tafsir says, This ayat shows the crime of the Christians who invented a lie against the law and its messenger, thus making a rival wife and son for Allah.

Allah is glorified in that he is far above man and.

Jesus. So, in.

Conclusion, from a Christian perspective, the Bible presents an accurate view of Jesus from the very people who knew him and were in charge of his message. Chronic denials of the central teaching of the Bible show no first-hand familiarity with the text of the.

Bible itself. The Islamic position.

Requires a new and a massive conspiracy wherein the enemies, the real followers of Jesus, were victorious, corrupting and destroying the original religion and somehow keeping the original true followers of Jesus from claiming their message.

So, hopefully this brief rundown will help us to lay a foundation.

For our discussion this evening as we look.

At Jesus in the Bible, in the Quran,.

And the Greek.

Thank you, Dr. Weitz, and now welcome to the podium, Imam Zayed who will give his 25-minute.

Opening presentation.

Just a quick reminder, everyone can double-check.

Yourselves as well. ...

Good idea. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

The Trinity, Sonship, and the Charge of Divine Begetting

Of all, say not treachery, desist, it will be better for you. For God is one God. In Surah 19, which we just had explained to us, and here in Surah 4, both times you have the same thing stated. We saw the same thing in Surah 5.

God is exalted above having a son. And in Surah 118, the 112th Surah, the third eyes have done the other part of the oracle. He begeth not, nor is he begotten. This is a fundamental aspect of the assertion of the.

But here is a question I believe we all have to consider together seriously. If we say that we are people of truth, I would say to you, if you come out on a Saturday night to this place to hear this discussion, you are not a person who is unconcerned about truth.

If we are concerned about truth, here is the question. Does the Quran prove all the positions it is denouncing? Those are very harsh words, and they're right there in the text. So if we saw in Surah 5, verse 16, that God married Mary, it seems to be talking about exactly that, talking about this idea of God begetting a son.

If you've never understood this, and this was well understood long before the time of the writer of the Quran, the relationship between father and son, begotten, is an eternal one. It never started. It has always been that way.

The father has always been a father. There was never a time when the son came into being. That was one of the great arguments of the Surahs, almost like a demigod. The God married Mary, and yet most Muslims, I thought, would think that that's a committed case.

Well, that's an excess of religion. We need to know it. To encounter the Quran for us, again, in the 8th chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus was speaking to certain Jewish people. Some of them would end up, because Jesus sort of bore one of their favorite ideas, he said, if you continue to follow me, you'll know the truth.

But before I get into that, in John 8, verse 20, that you will die in your sins, for unless that I, ego I, is used a number of times in the Gospel of John, but if you carefully trace it back, you discover that it's used as the name of God in the book of Isaiah and the minor prophets.

It's the Hebrew phrase, anahu. In fact, in John 13, 19, Jesus quoted, where Jehovah said that Jesus' response, that there is no trace of Jesus in Nazareth, his response was, and in John chapter 8, this very same chapter, at the end, Jesus is saying, before Abraham was, ego I, and the Jews would pick up stones to stone him, because they well know, they all recognized that Jesus is using words of himself that no mere prophet could ever state.

I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you survive the trial of Sodom and Gomorrah. And there is no question in my mind, what's being skeptic in the New Testament originally, you will die in your sins.

But I'm not going to be held responsible for them before I pull the God, because the only penalty for sin is separation from God. And so what did Jesus, men were standing, those were heavy, and someone came and claimed to be a prophet, and decided to start denying everything that Muhammad taught, would you just accept him right off the bat, as well, that must be true.

No, you would test him, you would see if he's consistent with what Muhammad himself taught, and what's found in the Quran. Well, here's a situation where someone has come along, we have no evidence that he ever heard, and he says, you're committing an act, and if you can testify, I will be your prophet.

Is there a basis? You would have to assume that this gospel was somehow corrupted when it was originally written, that somehow the original followers of Jesus did not stay faithful to him, and I suggest to you there's no reason to believe that, they were willing to die.

And so you have the earliest documentable sources saying Jesus taught this, and we have somebody come along, coming in 750 some odd miles later, without knowledge of the Old New Testament, by direct citation therefrom, saying no, those things that you now believe are excerpts, you would make that kind of a decision.

Do we really have a solid foundation for overthrowing the consistent testimony of what is found in the gospels, on the basis of something that comes 600 years later? That is my question for all of us this evening.

Thank you very much.

I just want to sort of make the basic question. Does this question connect with God? This question...

Yes, in Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 3, it clearly makes the statement, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. It has always been faith in God's promises. In the old days, that is faithfulness, that's the greater God.

Now that He has entered into His creation, can you imagine? And so if, could there be any other? The means of faith in a perfect and complete Savior that has never been a single person, who has ever fled to Jesus Christ for salvation, has found Him to be anything other than a perfect source of peace with God.

Romans chapter 5, verse 1 says, therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. Peace is, in the Greek it's Irenaeus, but it's the Semitic root, and you know what that Semitic root is.

I must be unclothed in my own righteousness to Christ. He lived a perfect life. He loved God perfectly. His righteousness imputed to me my sins, He bears upon Calvary's tree. That is how we are connected to God.

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