Jesus in the Bible and the Quran

The following presentation is a production of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Inc. and is protected by copyright laws of the

United States and its international treaties. Copying or distribution of this production without the expressed written permission of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Inc.

is prohibited. Good evening. Greetings to our

Muslim friends and our Christian brethren. My name is Chris Larsen, the host of the former radio program

Iron Shepherd's Archetype. Last Friday, or I should say it was Monday, we spent literally the whole theater because the station was sold to an old

Spanish network. The new owners, interestingly enough, have been getting such a bombardment of phone calls that the old

Spanish network is interested in having me back on the program, even though I'm the only

English -speaking host on that station. And we are negotiating right now, and it will be interesting to see if I get the program on the

Spanish station because this will be another audience that doesn't understand what he's talking about. But I'm so delighted that all of you have come here with such late notice, and I'm especially grateful for Imam Zayed, for accepting the invitation to participate in something like this at very, very late notice, very graciously and eagerly accepting our invitation.

I am so thrilled to see all of you here. We even have a visitor from Australia here today, and he didn't fly just for this, but he actually is taking part of his vacation time to be here with us.

But as I said, I'm Chris Larsen of Iron Shepherd's Archetype, and please pray that the program quickly returns to the airwaves.

The moderator for this evening is a professor at Ford University, David Wood, and he is also with Act 17 of Apologetics Ministries.

He is going to be moderating tonight, and he will be giving you the introductions of our participants.

And we will be at some point midway through this event taking a voluntary collection for the church that's allowing us to use this building for free for the second time.

Both of our apologists here, both Imam Zayed and Dr. White have vowed out of receiving any monies from this collection.

So this will go to the church here, the United Presbyterian Church. If you're making a check, make that the

United Presbyterian Church. All the money is going to the church. Other than that, which I can put this stuff in my pockets.

But we just thank you all for being here tonight. And David Wood, he will take over for the rest of our participants.

Good evening, everyone. Is this mic on? I can't tell if the mic is on.

It is very low. Who knows how to turn this up? I'll just speak loudly until it's squared away.

I'd like to thank everyone for coming out to this dialogue on Jesus in the Quran and the

Bible. Christians and Muslims agree on a lot of things about Jesus. We agree that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he is the

Messiah, that he performed numerous miracles, that he's going to return one day. But we do have some fundamental differences in our beliefs about Jesus and it should be very interesting to discuss those here this evening.

Representing Christianity this evening will be Dr. James R. White, who is Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a

Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is the author of numerous books, a professor and an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than 75 moderated public debates and dialogues with leading proponents of Islam, Roman Catholicism, liberal

Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism. Representing the

Islamic view this evening is Imam Saeed Saeed, who is Religious Life Advisor for the

Muslim Campus Ministry and Office of the University Chaplain at Columbia University in New York City.

He has been affiliated with Columbia for more than 10 years and is an alumnus of Teachers College. He has also taught psychology and education at the college level, both in India and the

United States. He retired as an educational administrator in 1996. I'm just going to cover the format of this exchange and I'm going to try to stay out of the way for the rest of the evening.

We'll begin with 25 -minute opening presentations from both of our participants, which will be followed by a 12 -minute response from each side.

After that, we'll have a 5 -minute break. When I say 5 minutes, I really mean 10 minutes, but if I say 10 minutes, people only come back 15 minutes later.

So somewhere in between 5 and 10 minutes, we have to start on time because we're starting a little bit late.

But we will have a short break. After that, when we return, each participant will give a 5 -minute response again.

And then we'll have 12 minutes for questions, not questions from the audience just yet, but questions from the participants.

So Jane will begin by asking a few questions of Imam Saeed and then by discussing.

Finally, whatever time we have left, apart from our conclusions, will be questions from the audience.

During the break, if you'd like to ask a question, I have an index card, so if you write your question on the index card and tell me who it's directed to and those questions that are most related to the topic this evening,

I'll try and get in as many as possible. And finally, each participant will have a 7 -minute conclusion.

So with that said, I'd like to jump right into things and introduce Dr. Weiss. We'll begin with a 25 -minute presentation on Christianity's view of Judaism.

Well, good evening. It is good to have you all here this evening. How many of you were here about 5 months ago?

Thank you very much for being here. I'm honored to be invited back, and of course, thank the

Imam for being here this evening as well. Thank you very much for taking the time to enter into this discussion with us and see

Jesus in the Bible and in the Quran. Obviously, Jesus is the primary connection between Christianity and Islam.

Both faiths believe Jesus was one of the most important people in all of human history, yet the two faiths differ completely on who

Jesus was and what he accomplished. And I believe, friends, that the greatest way that we can show respect and love for one another is to be honest and open when we disagree with one another.

I do not accept the modernistic idea that we paper over our differences with one another.

The way to show respect for someone is to honestly air those differences and to discuss them in an attitude of mutual respect.

I hope that's what is accomplished here this evening. Muslims believe that the Prophets and Jesus were all

Muslims, and they believe this on the basis of the Quranic teaching. But the earliest documentable sources to present the

Muslim view of Jesus are half a millennium removed from the original events themselves.

The earliest sources that we can examine are prophetic in nature. That is, the

Jewish scriptures, the Tanakh, the Old Testament, speak of one who would come.

When we combine the testimony of all of the prophecies in the Old Testament, we see that this one would be, first, a

Jewish prophet who would speak the words of Yahweh, as we see in Deuteronomy 18 and 18, that he would be called the

Son and would be a ruler, as we see in the second Psalm, that he would suffer before his final exaltation, as that tremendous text in Isaiah 53 reveals to us.

And finally, number four, that he would be more than a mere man. In Isaiah chapter 9, verse 6, we have these words.

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on his shoulders, and his name will be called, wonderfully,

Counselor, Mighty God, Elohim or, in the Hebrew language, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Now, when we come to the New Testament, many people think that the earliest books are the

Gospels because of where they're found in the order of the New Testament writings, but that is incorrect.

Paul's epistles, in all probability, predate the earliest of the Gospels. What do these writings, closest in time to Jesus' ministry, tell us about Jesus Christ?

Well, we have one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith, 1

Corinthians chapter 15, verses 3 through 6. Many people, even liberal scholars, believe that these words come from within just a few years of the actual crucifixion of Jesus.

There we read, for our deliverance was of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the

Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, and then to the

Twelve. So this earliest confession of the Christian people, what is it focused upon?

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the New Testament presentation.

Likewise, when Paul went to the churches of Galatia, he said, but when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth

His Son, remember the Old Testament text, Son, born of women, born under the law, so that He might redeem those who are under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

What do we see with these words? That Jesus was truly a man, He was born of a woman, probably referenced in the virgin birth there, and that He came to redeem, that He was a redeemer and a savior.

Likewise, we have another important text in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. This section really takes the ancient

Shema, the confession of the Jewish people, Shema Yisrael, Yahweh G -d made Yahweh of God, here

Israel, Jehovah, where Yahweh is one, Jehovah is our God, and it distributes the

Shema between the Father and the Son, that's what it says. Therefore, concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol, and that there is no

God but one. For either there are so -called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us, who are the followers of Jesus, there is but one

God, haistahos, the Father, from the world of things, and we exist for Him.

And one Lord, haistkudios, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Now it's very important that the early believers remain monotheistic Jews, but they are attempting to express what it means to recognize this

One who has come, this One who is fulfilling these Old Testament prophecies. And here you see that this

Lord, the very same term that's used of Yahweh in the Old Testament, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the

Septuagint, this One Lord is Jesus, and it is by Him are all things, and we exist through Him.

Those are not the words you use of a mere man. In Philippians chapter 2, verses 5 through 11, we have what many scholars believe is one of the early hymns of the

Christian faith, Christians of all events, singers, and this is probably one of the early stanzas of one of the earliest hymns of the

Christian faith. Listen to these words. You must have the same mindset among your souls as in Christ Jesus, who, this is where the music begins, in essence, who, although He eternally existed in the very form of God, did not consider that equality

He had with God the Father something to be held on to with all promises. But instead He made

Himself nothing by taking on the very form of a slave and being made into likeness. And having entered into human existence,

He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even to death one dies on the cross.

Because of this, God the Father exalted Him to the highest place and bestowed on Him the name to love every day.

So at the mention of the exalted name of Jesus, everyone who is in heaven, on earth and on the earth, bows their head and every tongue confesses,

Jesus Christ is Lord, all the glory of God the

Father. This is what the early Christians sang, because this is what the early Christians believed about Jesus.

When the Apostle Paul wrote to the church at Glossy, he described Jesus, he said, He is the image of the invisible

God, the firstborn of all creation. Firstborn does not mean first created creature in the Old Testament, it means one in preeminence.

For by Him, it is by Jesus, all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, from thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

All things have been created through Him and for Him, He is before all things. And in Him, all things consist or hold together.

Now, if you're a monotheistic Jew like Paul, raised at the feet of Gamaliel, and you describe someone in these words, who are you describing?

Remember, you're only believing there's one true God, the creator of all things, and here he said that Jesus is the one not only who has created all things, but for whom all things are created.

And yet, this is the earliest evidence that we have from the time of Jesus Himself, His all being, when

Paul wrote to his colleague Titus in Titus chapter 2, looking for the blessed hope and the imperative of the glory of our great

God and Savior, Jesus Christ. God and Savior, both being used of the one person,

Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, redeeming us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself the people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

So you note that we have here not only the deity of Christ, but this is tied together with His saving actions as well.

Hence, the earliest documents teach that Jesus was Julia Mia, sent by the Father, who had eternally existed with the

Father, was the creator of all things, our Lord and our God, who gave Himself voluntarily on the cross to redeem

God's people. So when we look to the Gospels, we find the same truth is illustrated in ways appropriate to the audiences of each of the

Gospels themselves. Each of the Gospels adapts the history of Jesus to a different audience. Mark is writing a different audience, for example, than Matthew is, and that's one of the reasons there are differences between them in the length of the news, the stories that they tell, etc.,

etc. Consider the Gospel of Mark, for example. Jesus is poignantly presented as the

Messiah, a prophet, a man who lived a particular time in a particular place.

He is located in history, in specific locations, in Galilee, in Jerusalem. All the

Gospels insist Jesus ministered in history, in actuality. This is very important. The point is that Jesus is not a myth that someone made up.

He was someone who lived in history. You can identify where he talks certain things.

You can identify what his religion was and things like that. Mark presents Jesus predicting

His own death on the cross at the hands of the Jews, as well as His resurrection from the dead.

The cross is central to Mark's message, just as it was to Paul's message.

But likewise in Mark, Jesus forgives sins, something only God can do in Mark chapter 2.

He says, there is none good but God alone, speaking self -referentially in Mark chapter 10. He wasn't saying

God's not good. He was trying to get the young man to know who he himself was. He identifies himself as the

Son of Man, a divine figure from the book of Daniel in Mark chapter 14, and so clear was that identification that the

Jews tore their clothes and said, you've heard the blasphemy. Why do we need any more witnesses? They understood exactly what

Jesus was saying about himself. The other synoptic gospels, Matthew and Luke, likewise present

Jesus as a historical figure, Messiah, Prophet, Son of Man, Son of God, Sacrifice for Sins.

Matthew pours it on many places with the Bible and the Quran to correctly contradict one another, and we need to look at this and honestly recognize this and talk about this openly together if we truly respect one another and have a high view of truth.

We have to look at this. For example, in Surah 5, verse 16, the Quran has Jesus say, quote, you know what is in my heart, though I do not know what is in Mark's.

That's a reference to the law. But over 500 years earlier, the gospel of Matthew had quoted

Jesus saying these words, all things can be handed over to you by my Father. And no one knows the

Son except the Father, nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the

Son knows to reveal Him. Jesus is the one through whom we gain knowledge of God the

Father. He has a perfect knowledge of the Father. That was written at least 500 years prior to the surah, the citation that we gave.

Now there is no question that the fourth gospel, the gospel of John, plainly teaches that Jesus was a man, just as the synoptic gospels do, and that He died on the cross.

But even the most liberal critics recognize that this gospel plainly teaches the full deity of Christ, identifying

Him as the Word that was made in flesh. And we should keep in mind that the earliest documented book of the

New Testament, in other words, the earliest manuscript of any New Testament book, we have our book, the gospel of John.

And it is that gospel that presents a picture of Jesus, most unlikely by LeBron, written over 500 years later.

Yet John clearly comes, the gospel of John clearly comes from Palestine, in the first century, and was honored as Scripture by all early

Christians. The book began from the affirmation that Jesus eternally existed as God and became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.

Notice these words. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him apart from Him. Nothing came into being that has come from Him.

In Him was life, and the life was the life of man. Then in the 14th verse of that first chapter, we have

His words. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glories of the only

God from the Father, full of grace and truth. And there in the graphic, you see the earliest record we have of these words from manuscript

P75, about AD 175. I put that up there because it is so important to recognize this is not something where someone came along later and altered things or changed things.

This is what the Gospel of John has always said. The same book closes with Thomas' confession in John 28.

Thomas answered and said to Him, answered and said to Him, to Jesus, my

Lord and my God. Jesus' response was not to rebuke Him, which if He was a mere prophet, He would have to.

His response was to recognize that this was a statement of faith. And He commended that faith and said, blessed are those who did not see, and yet have not believed as well.

Though this Gospel in John speaks plainly of Jesus' voluntary self -sacrifice, it is so important to understand.

Jesus' life is not taken from Him. He gives it of His own accord. In 1 Corinthians, He voluntarily made

Himself the reputation. Same thing here. For this reason, the Father loves me because I lay down my life so that I may take it again.

No one has taken it away from me, but I lay it down on my own initiative. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it up again with this commandment

I receive from my Father. These are the words of Jesus.

John's Gospel likewise identifies Jesus as the great I Am, the giver of life. Jesus says in John 14 .6,

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to me and comes to the Father except by me.

Please notice, He did not say, I am the way, the truth, or Jewishly, and there will be someone else for other people, there will be other prophets.

No, He says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the

Father but by me. Not by my teachings, but by me. These are personal words.

I emphasize that because I was just listening to a well -known Islamic speaker by the name of Dr. Knight, and he was explaining this text by saying, well, every prophet says this.

But when Moses was a prophet, he was the way, the truth, and the life. And you only come to God by His teachings.

That's not something Moses ever said or ever could have said. And Jesus' words are personal.

He doesn't say, no one comes to the Father except by my teachings. He says, no one comes to the Father except by me.

The rest of the Testament verifies these truths. The book of the Acts of the Apostles records the earliest sermons of the followers of Jesus, and they confirm these same claims, that Jesus was born, gave

His life as a sacrifice for sins, and was the eternal Son of God. One of the earliest sermons that we have in the

Holy Bible Scripture is found in Acts chapter 2. Why don't I put a picture of myself up there? Well, this was a few months ago at the

Cora University in Australia, where I was examining manuscript P91, which is one of the earliest manuscripts of the

Acts of the Apostles, and it contains the very same section in that very same sermon where we read such things as, this

Jesus God raised up again to which we are all witnesses, as well as, therefore, let all the house of Christ, this

Jesus whom you crucified. And so here we have, from the early 3rd century here, this manuscript, again proving to us that this was the teaching of the

Christians from the very beginning, where we can provide documented evidence. There are, so in summary, that Jesus, the

Bible, eternally existed as a second person, eternal Son. He was born of the

Virgin Mary, as a prophet, lived at a particular time, performed miracles, proclaimed the kingdom of God, identified himself as the

Son of God, the source of eternal life. He gave his life voluntarily as a sacrifice for sins, and was buried, and rose again.

So in a few minutes we have left just a few comments now on Jesus in Deuteronomy, as I said to my esteemed partner this evening, the primary presentation of this, but what are the issues, what are the differences we need to look at?

The Qur 'an's name for Jesus, Isa, appears in 25, but only once in all of the

Qur 'an does Jesus speak from an identifiable location. That being his cradle, in Surah 19, verse 30, that section you're reading, beginning verse, at Ayah 27.

And like she walked the way for people carrying her arms, they said, O Mary, truly an amazing thing has thou wrought.

O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste. But she pointed to me, they said, how can you talk to one who is a child in the cradle?

He said, that is, the child in the cradle, I am indeed a servant of the Lord. He hath given me revelation, made me a prophet, and he hath made me blessed wheresoever

I be, and hath enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He hath made me kind to my mother, and not of the very miserable.

So peace is on me the day I was born, and the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life again.

Such was Jesus, the son of Mary, and it is the statement of truth about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting of the majesty of Allah, listen to this, it is not befitting of the majesty of Allah that he should be yet a son.

Glory be to him when he determines a matter, he always says to it be, and it is. Verily Allah is my

Lord, and your Lord. Him therefore serve you. This is a way of history. But the sects differ among themselves, and woe to the unbelievers, because of the coming judgment of a momentous day.

Now I'm sure we'll be discussing a lot about this, but one of the things that I would point out is that the story of Jesus speaking from the cradle does not come from any time near Jesus.

It comes from the 5th century, 5th or 6th century Arabic infancy gospel, and here is the actual quote that is found.

We have found a recording of Josephus, the chief priest, who was at the time of Christ, and that said he was Titus, that this man said that Jesus' fate, when he was in the cradle, was set to marry his mother in the most different city.

Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word that was born, according as the angel Gabriel gave the good news, and my

Father has sent me to the salvation of the world. Now this does not come from Palestine, does not come from a source that we can trust that had anything to do with the origin of Jesus, but it is interesting that we find this in the

Arabic infancy gospel, and we find a similar story in the Quran. Beyond this one incident,

Jesus is never located in history in the Quran. He speaks as a disembodied voice, primarily as an argument either for the

Prophet Muhammad, or against the Christians of Muhammad's day. This Jesus, who is more of an argumentative person, is strikingly different than the

Jesus of the Bible. And if you've never read both books, you might not recognize that.

If you've only read the Quran, then reading the New Testament would be difficult. If you've only read the New Testament and read the Quran, you find these striking differences.

To the Christian reader, the Jesus of the Quran only bears surface similarities to Jesus in the

Gospels. He is a monotheistic prophet in both, yes. He's born of a virgin, and he works miracles.

But the essence of Jesus' teaching and ministry seems totally unfamiliar to the author of the

Quran. Could this be due to the fact that Muhammad, most Muslims would tell you, was illiterate, and he did not have access to the

New Testament or the Old Testament in his own language? Because the earliest manuscripts we have of either the Old Testament or the

New Testament come from the end of the 9th century, long after Muhammad had died. And so he didn't have access to the original languages, or in his own language, even if he could have read, he would not have had access to these particular things.

And it's interesting to mention the working of miracles. Notice here, in Surah 349,

And appoint him an apostle to children of Israel with this message, I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's name.

This idea of Jesus making clay birds come alive comes from the 2nd century Gnostic Gospels, which, again, is not a part of the historical evidence concerning Jesus, but comes from a very different worldview.

I don't think anyone here, Muslim or Christian alike, would embrace any of the Gnostic worldview, because it's not monotheistic.

God is not the creator of all things. The Gnostics are far removed from all of us, as far as the worldview goes.

And, of course, one of the primary differences between this and Shulchul is that he gets to serve for one of his sons. That they said,

In most, we kill Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary, the Apostle of God, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear, that those who differ therein are full of doubt, and of no certain knowledge, but only conjecture of God.

For it was Shulchul who killed him not, and they allowed race to welcome him, and so on and so forth, as a result of the power of lies.

Now this one text has resulted in all sorts of different interpretations as to what is actually being said here.

What does this mean? Was someone substituted for Jesus? And so on and so forth. Maybe we'll get into that this evening.

It is an important text to discuss. But I want to get to two of the texts right here. Deuteronomy 72 helps us to see how important this subject is.

They do blaspheme who say, Allah is Christ, the Son of Mary. But said Christ, all children of Israel worship

Allah, my Lord and Lord. Whoever joins other gods of Allah, Allah will forbid him to do it, and the fire will be his abode.

There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help them. They do blaspheme who say, Allah is one of three in a trinity. But there is no god except Allah, the law.

If they insist not to follow the blaspheme, you barely agree with us at all. If you follow the blaspheme, there is no one to help you. Very clearly, the author of the

Quran believes that the trinity violates monotheism, that he is saying that Allah is one god amongst three, and yet that is not what

Christians have ever believed. What finally concerns me is

Surah 5, Verse 16. And behold, Allah will say, O Jesus, Son of Mary, this

I will say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of the Lord.

It sounds like this text is saying that the doctrine of the trinity is Allah, Mary, and Jesus, that Allah takes a wife and has a son named

Jesus. I've met men and Muslims who believe this, and I believe that. Of course, that's never been what

Christians have ever believed about the doctrine of the trinity. Even Nebuchadnezzar, one of the great early commentators in his top series, says,

This ayah shows the crime of the Christians who invented a lie against the law and its messenger, thus making a rival wife and son for Allah.

Allah is glorified when he is far above man. So, in conclusion, from a

Christian perspective, the Bible presents an accurate view of Jesus when the very people who knew him were in charge of proclaiming his message.

Chronic denials of the central teaching of the Bible show no first -hand familiarity with the text of the Bible itself.

The Islamic position requires that we view it as a massive conspiracy wherein the enemies, the real followers of Jesus, were victorious, corrupting and destroying the original

Jew, and somehow keeping the original true followers of Jesus from proclaiming their message.

So hopefully this brief rundown will help us to lay a foundation for our discussion this evening as we look at Jesus in the

Bible. Thank you for the briefing.

I'm going to take the liberty of extending those briefings with everyone present here today.

When I was asked by a long -time friend, who happens to be a pessimist, if I had the ability to have a dialogue this evening on the subject of Jesus in the

Bible, I very willingly agreed to make myself available.

And the reason that I agreed was very simple. I am not in any professional sense a scholar either of the

Bible or of the Quran, but I have studied the Quran since I was in my teenage years.

And I studied the Quran in a way that's not very typical.

I studied the Quran by asking questions at every step throughout my life.

And to give you an example, I just at one time in my life felt that when

I'm reading the commentaries, I'm paying very close attention to the details of everything that's there in every word and in every chapter.

And I started feeling that I'm getting too much information without having a very clear focus as to what this information is all about.

So at one point during those years, I decided to go through the

Quran without looking into commentaries, simple translations.

I just wanted to know what is the basic message of this whole book.

And once I did that, I came across a very short expression, and I want to share that with you today.

And that short expression follows after every major chapter that has been mentioned in the

Quran. It says, I will be glad to take that on again.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Ya Qawm, that is, O my people, turhullah, turn to Allah in prayer and worship.

Ya Qawm, turhullah, ma 'a l -umar min ila ilaha illa

Allah. There is no one that you should turn to in prayer and worship except for Him.

When I realized that, it was like a door that has opened for me.

After I entered this door, I can look at everything that is there after the entry and connect those pieces together in this one central theme of God and His creation, and how this entire creation is connected together in this single process of creation and sustenance.

And that this whole creation is connected with the

Creator in the most lively fashion. And the

Quran says that except for the human beings, and the human beings are given a choice.

And that choice is there to see how well they are going to use their intelligence, use their reasoning, and use their insights to come and discover that God who is the creator of this entire universe and connect with Him in the most lively fashion.

It has been a very challenging path for humanity from the very beginning.

Although we have tremendous capacity for reasoning and understanding, but when it comes to connecting with God, there are huge challenges.

And God in His grace said very clearly that I am going to send for you from time to time prophets who will bring my guidance for you.

And if you pay very close attention to that guidance, you will know how to connect with your sustainer.

This has been the message of all the prophets. And as far as the

Quran is concerned, this challenge has never been in any way different.

That is to turn to God in search of meaningful relationship.

Now when it comes to Jesus, you have gone through all the statements that Dr.

White has presented before you from the Bible, from the

Old Testament, and he has also been very gracious to quote the

Quran. And very interestingly, I have the same verses that he quoted before you.

And I wanted to have one of our friends here who

I have known for a few years. And I told him that he should have been the person who should have been sharing his insights and understanding with the audience today.

He has graciously agreed to read the translation of those seven verses from Surah Maryam, that is

Chapter 19. Would Brahmanda be kind enough to read those seven verses?

The passage is as follows. These verses are from the

Surah 19, the title of Maryam, verses 30 through 36.

But he, Jesus, said, Behold, I am a servant of God.

He has vouchsafed unto me revelation that may be a prophet and may be blessed wherever I may be.

And he has enjoined upon me prayer and charity. He has endowed me with piety towards my mother, and he has made me not haughty or bereft of grace.

Hence, peace was upon me on the day when I was born, and will be upon me on the day of my death and on the day when

I shall be raised to life again. Such was, in the words of truth,

Jesus the Son of Man, about whose nature they so deeply disagreed.

It is not conceivable that God should have taken unto himself a son. Limitless is he in his work.

When he wills a thing to be, he but says it to be, and it is.

And thus it was that Jesus always said, Very God is my sustainer as well as your sustainer.

So worship none but him. This alone is the sure way. Thank you

Brother Sundar. Now, as I mentioned earlier, the question is very clear and very simple for every human being.

And that question is, how do I find my connection with God?

The Christian brethren, Professor White pointed out, that they consider

Jesus as the way to God. And the

Qur 'an is very clear. The Qur 'an is very clear in one sense.

That every human being, based on the faculties that God has endowed to all of us, by reflecting on the signs within the creation of this entire universe, we come to say that there is a creator.

And we don't exactly know how to describe that creator, how to in fact define him, but we come to a sense that there is someone who has brought this entire creation to be.

And in my own ways, I go back to Abraham.

I go back to Abraham because Abraham has been presented as someone who can be modeled after by any human being, irrespective of the kind of circumstances in which one is born.

And Abraham was born in a society which was filled with adultery.

His own father was one of the major fathers of the idols that people used to have in their homes, in their temples.

But Abraham starts asking questions. And finally, he comes to the conclusion that this system of having idols of different gods as the way to find solutions for human problems is absolutely baseless.

It has no intellectual, rational basis. So the Quran puts prime emphasis on the faculty of reasoning.

There is absolutely no other way for any person in any faith tradition, whether Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, where the primary role of reason can never be suspended.

Now we have all the verses from the Bible, from various gospels, and we have verses from the

Old Testament, and we have verses from the Quran. And the challenge is for each and every one of us to look at those verses.

Examine the verses from the sources of the Christian faith tradition.

Examine the sources that are there available from the

Old Testament sources, from the Jewish sources. Examine what the

Quran has to say. I don't want to get into all of those verses that are taught in Dr.

White's presentation, and outside of it there are other verses.

The reason that I pick only these seven verses, they cover the entire

Quran. First of all, it says very clearly that Jesus is a product.

Nothing more, nothing less. That's the position of the

Quran, and Dr. White himself has made it very clear. Now, all the issues that arise because of the way

Jesus was born, and the way Jesus' life ends on this earth, creates a number of questions for the people who subscribe to the

Christian faith. The way he was born suggests to them that it's not a usual human birth.

So there has to be something that they have to find to explain this away.

So the explanation that they have found, whether it's from way back or from the present time, is to bring an element of divinity into the person of Jesus.

And the Quran is very clear about that. The Quran says that Jesus was born to Virgin Mary, but for God to have

Jesus take birth from Virgin Mary is absolutely not the

Quran. The Quran is very clear about that. For example, the Quran says that in the case of Jesus, God has no problem.

His example is like that of Adam. Adam was created without a father.

Adam was created in a completely novel fashion.

And for that matter, Eve was created in a completely novel fashion.

But none of these unusual ways of their coming into being have brought any element of divinity into their persons.

So, God simply wants to let humanity know that for God to bring

Jesus in this world without a father is absolutely no problem at all.

That simply shows the things around us.

For God, none of these things are binary. So for God to create Jesus without a father is not a problem.

And you read from the words that you read on the screen that for Him, it's simply to say

He and His death. So it's this kind of understanding of God that the

Quran wants to cultivate in the mind and spirit of every human being.

Because God's unlimited capacity to do things in whatever way

He chooses is one of the basic ingredients of understanding the power of God.

If we don't get that kind of understanding about God, we are seriously deficient in terms of our insights about God as an infinite, as an omnipotent, omnipresent being.

So that is why, in fact, Jesus Himself is reported to have said when things were presented before Him when

He was born. And these verses refer to that occasion in which

Jesus says what He said, Behold, I am a servant of God.

My narrow way of coming into being has not changed my status in any way.

I am still like any other human being, a servant of God. We have to be very clear on that.

This is the Quranic view of Jesus. He has also come to me, revelation and mainly a prophet.

But what is the difference between me, that is Jesus as a human being, and all other human beings that God has

Himself said that He is going to be a prophet? That's the difference. God has sent

His guidance to Jesus and God has enabled

Him to live that guidance as a reminder for the people who will be asked by Him to take

His path, to follow His path. And that's exactly what is stated in the following verses.

And may He bless wherever I may be. A person with a passion, a person who is divinely guided is a blessing.

Is a blessing as long as that person lives on this earth. Because God is manifesting

Himself through this human expression. So, Jesus makes it very clear that I am blessed wherever I may be.

And He has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live.

So this is the humanity of Jesus. He is letting everyone know that He is not a rebuke, in no way as a self -rebuke from the most critical thing that human beings need to do.

It's to turn to God in prayer and worship and be charitable in their lives.

Be generous in their lives. This is what Allah SWT, that if God wants the human beings to express and exhibit in their lives.

So this is what Jesus says, that I am enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live.

And has endowed me with my being towards my mother and He has not made me happy of grace.

That shows that although Jesus is born and His mother now is being viewed by His people as a suspect,

He is letting everyone know that they should not at any point think that He is going to be influenced by the suspicions of these people about the mother.

He is going to be truly devoted to His mother, a faithful son who will glorify her chastity, her love for Him.

He is never going to be tired of doing that. On the day when

I was born, has peace was upon me on the day when

I was born and will be upon me on the day of my death and on the day when

I shall be raised to life again. Such was in the words of truth

Jesus, the Son of Man, by whose nature this so deeply disappeared.

It is not conceivable that God should have taken into Himself a Son. Limitless is

He in His glory. No other being, no other being can claim this.

Limitless glory. It is only God that has limitless glory and no other person, no other being can compare in that glory.

When He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it be and it is.

And all His miracles of Jesus that Dr. White quoted through the verses of the

Quran very clearly indicate that it is God that has enabled

Jesus to perform those miracles. There is absolutely no doubt.

And other doctors have performed those miracles. For example, in the case of Moses, he was given this staff that he used to have the children of Prince Israel to cross and he used that staff to perform other miracles.

What is very critical for all of us that these miracles were in no way serve the purpose that people used to say that it will be helpful for us.

For example, in the case of Moses, in spite of the miracles he performed,

Pharaoh never accepted the message of Moses. And similarly, in the case of Jesus, in spite of all his miracles, history has recorded very clearly that people who lived in this time did not accept him universally as the messenger of God.

In spite of his miraculous work, in spite of it all, people still did not believe in Jesus as the messenger of God.

So these miracles, these marvelous things, are given to people to see if they are really going to open their minds and hearts and accept the truth.

And what can become so blind that even such clear evidences would not allow you to come to the truth?

That's where the very clearing is that the human mind has to be used in a very clear fashion to come to understand the truth and then come to connect with God in such a fashion that our lives will be transformed to reflect the grace and mercy of God in our daily life and then in our relations with other people.

This is what Jesus says that while I am praying to God, I also be charitable with every opportunity.

So that connection with God has to be of the kind that I assimilate and I invite the grace of God and then have lived in my life in such a way that other human beings are able to see the grace of God on and on and on.

I think we have a problem here.

Is that I'm too far forward. The speaker's right there. That's where we're getting feedback. I'm going to move back a step and I think we might be able to cut out some of the feedback.

Good idea. Thank you. Testing. I'm going to have to speak very quietly.

It's a little bit hot. Thank you. Here. Testing one.

Is that good? I got it.

All right. Well, thank you very much, Janelle, for that presentation. I would like to start by responding to the statement that was made, specifically that the means by which

Jesus was born is taken as Christian as the evidence of his deity. That's not an argument the

New Testament actually makes. It was never said that because he was virgin -born that means he was God.

We recognize that God could cause anyone to be virgin -born if he so chose to do so. There was a reason why

Jesus was virgin -born, why he had to be virgin -born. But that is not one of the evidences of the deity of Christ as far as the

New Testament is concerned. So if there is concern on that part in the Quran, then the question would be where did that concern come from?

In the same way, the Arabs, yes, we would agree that Jesus viewed them as signs. And there is a similarity between the

Quran and that one in that, especially the Gospel of John, it is presented, those are signs that are presented that demonstrate the hardness of the heart of many of those people who saw what

Jesus did. Think about when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Here they see a man alive who had been dead for four days and what's the response of their heart?

We need to find who killed this man because they were so concerned about their own personal conditions

But again, it's not the miracles that demonstrate that Jesus is God either. It is the direct statement of the text of Scripture.

In Surah chapter 5, I believe it's on my list, I don't know, verse,

Ayah 47, we read, Let the people of the Gospel judge by what

God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by the light of what God hath revealed, they are no better than those who rebel.

Now, I see this, I've studied this section fairly carefully. It is meant to be an apologetic argument for the prophethood of Muhammad, but we are told the people of the

Gospel, the awl al -injil, are to judge by what Allah hath revealed therein, the only therein of the

Gospel. And so the question becomes, are we not then being told by the

Quran to judge Muhammad's message by what God has revealed in the injil? Well, that would be a meaningless statement if the people of Muhammad's day did not have an injil by which to judge.

The problem is, we know exactly what the New Testament will provide, exactly what the Gospel message was at the beginning of 7th century

Arabia. We have manuscripts, complete manuscripts of the New Testament that long predate this period of time.

And so I believe I am showing honor to the Quran when it challenges me as one of the people of the

Gospel, the awl al -injil, to judge by what God has revealed therein.

The Quran is saying, God revealed the injil. And I know the modern Muslims believe at this point, I know the modern

Muslims believe that the injil has been corrupted. The question is, on what basis is that to be accepted?

And that's what we need to be thinking about this evening. Because just before that, in the fourth surah, in ayah 171, the abu -katab, the people of the book argue this.

O people of the book, commit no excesses in your religion nor say of God aught but the truth.

Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary, was no more than ima -zul, of Allah, an apostle of Allah in His Word, which

He instilled on Mary in the spirit received from Him. So believe in God and His apostles. Say not trinity.

Decess will be better for you. For God is one God, worthy in Him. Far exalted is

He above Adam and Son. Now, in surah 19, which we just kind of explained to us, and here in surah 4, both times, you have the same thing stated, we saw the same thing in surah 5, verse 16.

God is exalted above Adam and Son in surah Al -Ikhlas, the 112th surah.

The third eyes are then the other while we look. He begeth not nor is He begotten. This is a fundamental aspect of the assertion of the

Quran. But here is a question I believe we all have to consider together seriously.

If we say that we are people of truth, I would say to you, if you come out on a Saturday night to this place to hear this discussion, you are not a person who is unconcerned about truth.

If we are concerned about truth, here is the question. Does the Quran present an accurate understanding of the positions it is denying?

There's no question it's denying a position. Hellfire, curses, excesses, the fire will be your bow, blasphemy, and those are very harsh words.

And they are right there in the text of the Quran. So, if you are going to use words like that, then the question is, are you accurately describing what someone believes?

Now we saw in Surah Qiyamah 16, in the clear, I understood it to be talking about what

Christians believe. Christians have never believed that God married Mary and had a child. And yet, each one of these texts seems to be talking about exactly that.

Talking about this idea of God begetting His son. If you've never understood this, this was well understood long before the time of the writer of Quran.

The relationship between father and son, the godhead, is an eternal one. It never started. It has always been that way.

The father has always been the father, the son has always been the son. There was never a time when the son came into being.

That was one of the great arguments of the 4th century was the movement of Aryanism to try to turn

Jesus into a lesser god, almost a demigod. But Christians have never believed that God married

Mary and had a child. And yet, most Muslims I've talked to think that that's what the

Quran was presenting. They certainly thought that that was the case. Well, that's an excess of religion.

We need to know that. But I just compare that with what we find in the text of the

Bible in just a few minutes that I have left. Allow me to direct your attention, all of you, to an encounter that occurred for us again in the earliest documented work of the

New Testament. It's not the first one written. That's the earliest we have documentation of, and that is the Gospel of John. In the 8th chapter of the

Gospel of John, Jesus was speaking to certain Jewish people. Some of them would have ended up believing him, but by the end of the chapter, you could get stones to stone with them because Jesus sort of bore one of their favorite ideas.

He said, if you continue to follow me, you will know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. And he liked that idea and he set free.

But before getting to that, Jesus said these words to the Jews. In John 8, 24,

I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

Now he used the Greek phrase there, egoaim. Egoaim is used a number of times in the

Gospel of John, but if you carefully trace it back, you discover that it's used as the name of God in the book of Isaiah and the minor prophets.

It's the Hebrew phrase, anahu. In fact, in John 13, 19, Jesus quotes from Isaiah 43, 10, where Jehovah says, before me there there was about four million in the nation.

He quotes it from that text and applies it to himself. Remember in John chapter 18, when the smokers came to arrest

Jesus, remember what happened? Jesus said, who do you see? And Jesus' response, the response of Jesus and Nazareth, his response was, egoaim.

I am. And what happened? The soldiers fell down on the ground.

Why would that happen? They fell backwards. They didn't fall down in their knees and worship. They fell backwards in Jesus' statement.

Egoaim. I am. And in John chapter 8, this very same chapter, at the end, Jesus is saying, before Abraham was, egoaim.

I am. And the Jews would pick up stones to stone him because they well know exactly what he's proclaiming for himself.

They all recognized that Jesus is using words of himself that no mere prophet could ever state.

And so with that as a background, I want to go back to what Jesus said in verse 24. I told you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

I told you that you will die Surah 5 tells me to judge by what's found in the

Injil. And there is no question in my mind whatsoever, and I defended this against some of the leading skeptics in the

New Testament, like Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, and Jesus himself, that these are the words that John originally wrote.

He wrote these words. Jesus said, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

And I don't want you to sound try to find a solution. I don't want to die in my sins. I want to know that my sins have been forgiven.

I want to know that my sins have been borne, that I'm not going to be held responsible for them before I call to God because the only penalty for sin is separation from God and eternal death.

And so what did Jesus mean when he said to those Jews men who are standing no farther away from him than you are sitting away from me.

Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Those are heavy and weighty words.

If we follow a Quran, that is an excess. But I simply ask you a question on what basis.

If you're a Muslim and someone came along hundreds of years after Muhammad, and claimed to be a prophet and yet stand in the line of Muhammad and decided to start denying everything that Muhammad taught, would you just accept him right off the bat and say, oh, that must be true?

No, you would test him. You would see if he's consistent with what Muhammad himself taught and what's found in the

Quran. Well, here's a situation where someone has come along 600 years after Jesus spoke these words.

We have no evidence that says that he ever read these words, that he ever heard these words directly himself.

And he says, you're committing an excess. And if you continue to believe in that excess, then fine,

I'll be your prophet. Well, we have to lay these issues out tonight and make decisions.

Is there a basis for believing that? You would have to assume that this gospel was somehow corrupted when it was originally written.

That somehow the original followers of Jesus did not stay faithful to him and defend the truth about who he really was.

I suggest to you there's no reason to believe that. They were willing to die. And so you have the earliest documentable sources saying

Jesus taught this. And we have it come on, coming 750 some odd miles later in a different language, without knowledge of the

Old and New Testament by the right citation they're from, saying no, those things that you now believe are excess.

Upon what basis would you make that kind of decision? Do we really have a solid foundation for overthrowing the consistent testimony of what is found in the gospels on the basis of something that comes 600 years later?

That is my question for all of us this evening. Thank you very much. I just want to start making the basic question clear again.

The basic question for every human being is how we connect with God.

This question can never be set aside. And before Jesus was born, was there a way to connect with God through practice?

And were there people during those practice times who refused to accept the guidance?

This distinction between those who can connect with God and those who are unwilling to connect with God is basically the question that is going to the uppermost in the life of all of us and it has been uppermost throughout our human history.

Now, did people believe in God before the time of Jesus? Were they forgiven for their sins or not?

If we say yes, there were people who believed in God and they followed what the divine had and they were forgiven for their sins.

The answer to the question that has been raised by Dr. White becomes simpler.

Even if one wants to believe about Jesus in whatever way they want to believe, they in no way can deny other human beings if they are going to say that I believe, for example, in Moses, I believe, for example, in Abraham, I believe, for example, in some other prophet and I have found the way to God.

Well, I'm going to say to this person that you have your source of guidance and I have my source of guidance.

Can we share these sources and see if they are rationally, logically consistent and are they all going to bring us on the path where we can connect with God?

Here, there is a demand that you have to believe in Jesus in a certain way to find salvation.

What I'm going to say that that certain way has been defined by sources that James White has quoted and I'm really convincing to you.

The convincing way for me is to be very clear that I'm connected with God and God has laid out a path in which faith and righteousness are the prime.

Faith in God and righteousness in their life. There is no shortcut to this path.

And based on the Prophetic Statement, this is what all the prophets have said including

Jesus whose miraculous birth has not changed the way things have been laid out for human beings.

He also said very clearly that the faith in God and righteousness is the only way for salvation.

It's not saying that you have died for my sin. I believe in that and you are going to save me.

That way of looking at life is neither acceptable as far as the

Quran says. The Quran insists the Quran insists and it demands from the followers of all other faith traditions from all other faith traditions irrespective with which faith traditions exist that if connection with God if faith in God and righteousness is not the guiding principle of your faith the

Quran challenges it. The Quran challenges it to make sure that you lay out all of the traditions that you describe sequentially.

So what Quran has said that for the brothers and sisters who are here who subscribe to the

Christian faith if they are saying that there is another way besides having faith in God and living a righteous life that's not really salvation

I contend that that's not the way I view my life to be lived in the future.

I'm very clear that the message of Jesus the message of Moses the message of Abraham the message of Solomon has been one and the same and very clear because on this basic issue you can't leave things vague and uncertain.

The Quran makes it very clear that it has been made most clear and very simple and people need to have connection with God faith in God and live righteous life.

And this is what Jesus demanded from his disciples. And this is what the disciples assured

Jesus that they will do that they will live the life of faith and live a righteous life.

Of course we are going to believe Jesus as the path to salvation because this is the path that we laid out.

Not that you believe that I have come to die for your sins. If this is the way what will happen to all those people who live before the time of Jesus?

Who is going to provide salvation? Are they in a limbo?

And what will happen to people who never came to know about Jesus as such?

And they have lived in different parts of the world and they have their own sources of guidance. And they are living their lives as a family.

So is it not necessary that when we reach out to those people that we use all the resources that we have and present it in an article, written or fashioned so that they can see which path is really the guaranteed path for salvation.

The guaranteed path of salvation as far as the Christ is concerned that has been quoted time and again that is the faith in God the faith in the prophets and the faith in the guidance of God and living the righteous life.

So I pray that may God guide us and help us and enable us to have this basic understanding and clarity as to how we are going to have our salvation.

And not only salvation in the hereafter those guidance that were brought by all these prophets were brought so that people can live their lives in this world.

In this world righteously so that the grace and blessings of God can be shared through real living experiences.

That's where all the prophets alaihi salam provided guidance so that people can live in that guidance and become a source of grace and mercy for each other.

And that's what Jesus did and that's what our government peace be upon them and all of them have done.

So I want to leave the rest of the time for other speakers. Alright now we'll have about a five minute break if you want to come back in and sit down.

But we'll start about ten minutes from now. Please be in your seats by that time and if you have questions for the

Q &A period come get a card we have some hands up here as well and we'll start again in ten minutes.

We're going to have a few things going on here in this second session. We're going to begin with two five minute responses.

One from each side since we're bringing everything together so far. Then we'll have a period where each side asks some questions over the other and then we'll take up the questions if you'd like to.

If you still have any questions no problem. Right before the question and answer period we'll take them up and if anyone has to leave if it gets too late for anyone and anyone has to leave please do so during the transition period one of the speakers is descending down to the other standing up at the next person and all right now

James will come up with the five minute response. Well thank you very much.

I would like to respond specifically to a couple of statements that were made in the questions that were asked how do we connect with God was the question that was asked.

Well faith has always been the mechanism whereby we connect with God and that includes those who came before Jesus.

Was there a way to connect with God before Jesus was born? Were those people forgiven? The biblical answer is yes.

In Paul's epistle to the Romans chapter three we are told that apart from the law the righteousness of God which is assessed by the law and the prophets have been disclosed namely the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

There is no exception for all have sinned and Paul showed the glory of God. We are justified freely by his grace and redemption is in Christ Jesus.

God publicly displayed him as the propitiatory sacrifice through faith.

This was to demonstrate his righteousness because God here is the answer to the question in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time so he would be just and the justifier of one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.

How is Moses accepted before God? Because of his faith and his righteousness How is

David made right before God? Because of his faith and the promises that Yahweh had given him. Yahweh has now entered into his own creation in his

Son and that is why Jesus then clearly makes the statement unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins.

It has always been faith in God's promises. In the old days it was God's prophetic promises of the coming of that Messiah and his faithfulness as the greater

God. Now he is accepted into his creation. Can you imagine? Just think with me for a moment and you can get past any kind of problem in your mind.

Why do you believe that God cannot enter into his own creation? He created it.

It was his purpose to enter into it to demonstrate his love for a particular people. How is that beyond God's capacity?

I don't believe it is beyond God's capacity. And so if he has entered into his own creation if Jesus gives who the

New Testament says he is could there be any other way of salvation? If God had provided in himself the means of a perfect relationship with him it is easy.

The Bible tells us that we are dead in our trespasses it says. But there is none righteous, none unrighteous.

And outside of the grace of God changing our hearts raising us to spirit life we will continue our rebellion against God.

And I think everyone in this room knows if you will examine your heart you know that rebellion that is there.

And you know that outside of the grace of God outside of God's working in that way we cannot pull ourselves up by our own straps.

We do not make ourselves righteous and therefore earn God's acceptance. The only way is by faith in the promises of God.

And the promise that God has given now is that everyone who names the name Jesus Christ will be saved and will find

Him to be a perfect and complete Savior that has never been a single person who has ever fled to Jesus Christ for salvation and has found

Him to be anything other than a perfect source of peace with God. The promise chapter 5 verse 1 says therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God.

We know that what peace is. In the Greek it's hymenic but of course Paul is a Jewish person so we know that's shalom and that is a

Semitic root and you know what that Semitic root is. Shalom, peace.

Salam, peace. We have peace but in only one way.

Having been justified by faith we have peace with God. True peace with God.

Not a fear have I done enough. Well I find God to be unmerciful to me on the day of judgment.

Did I say enough prayers? Did I do enough pilgrimages? The Christian has peace with God because I do not stand clothed in my own righteousness.

I have received the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life.

He loved God perfectly. His righteousness imputed to me. My sins he bears upon Calvary's tree.

That is how we are connected to God. That is how we have peace with God. That is the message of the

New Testament. I haven't said anything to Sir Raghunath this morning but I'm going to take a very short response and then

I'm going to ask him to raise some of the questions that he shared with me during the break.

Now going back to the question of salvation we are told that Jesus knew

God totally completely and Jesus knew how to connect with Him.

And the point that I have been making throughout my presentation that the prophets not only know

God not only know how to connect with God they are there to guide their followers as to how they need to know

God and how they need to connect with God. There is absolutely no room for this idea that if you believe that your prophet knows

God very well and is living the guidance of God very well you just put your personal faith in that prophet and you keep doing whatever you need to do and you just say that here is my savior.

The Quran does not buy into this idea. When they are talking about the

Quran the Quran is very clear for all the prophets including

Jesus that they were given the understanding of how they need to recognize

God how they need to discover God in their life and how they need to live their life based on that guidance and then enable their followers and this is exactly what

Jesus was doing with his disciples. He was sharing with them the knowledge of God that they had and he was enabling them to live the life of a believer.

Jesus based on the Quran never said to anyone that if you have this idea that I am your redeemer

I am the salvation besides that you will be redeemed and you will find salvation.

The Quran does not buy into that way of looking at salvation and looking at righteousness.

The Quran is the big day of your life. In fact every moment of your life if you are aware of your relationship with God and you engage in actions that are consistent with the understanding of your

God that is the way for you to live your life and in that process if you make a mistake if you commit a sin if you are making errors then you turn to God asking for forgiveness.

This entire relationship with God is very clear as far as the

Quran is concerned. So to believe that there is someone who is going to guarantee your salvation is a very erroneous notion.

So that's what I would like to say. And I'm sorry I don't want to get into the idea that why for example

Professor Bible interprets to be the word of the Bible is something that is universally accepted by the

Christians themselves. Within the Christian traditions as Dean pointed out there are very different interpretations of many different things.

So we have to be in that environment. I'm going to ask

Saeed to come back up. We're going to have a period of questioning and I'm going to give a warm welcome to Dr.

White. Check check check check sound

OK, sounds better. If it doesn't work just turn it on. I'm willing to stand up if you want to.

Stand together. Babband in this period

James has a very great question and And then after 12 minutes, we'll reverse it to where Imam Zayed can answer questions of James.

Wherever you're coming from. OK. This is really where I think a dialogic discussion takes place, is when we can have this kind of personal interaction.

And I am getting feedback from a very good group here. Let's actually pull all this stuff back on the table.

You had just indicated that there are various interpretations amongst

Christians on these issues. And yet, has it not, in your experience, been that a belief in death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and the deity of Christ is what unifies all

Christian groups, other than groups like Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that, which purpose is to separate themselves off.

Isn't that really the central argumentation of Christianity? OK. They do have their common theme.

But in terms of what role does it play in salvation and how it should inspire their living in this worldly life, they all have different ways of using it.

Well, even here this evening, we have at least, and I don't want to embarrass you, but do we have any

Shia Muslims with us this evening? Shia? We have at least three different groups of Muslims who disagree on some very fundamental issues.

You would probably agree with me that does not, in and of itself, reflect the clarity of the Quran, does it not?

No, definitely not. So if there are differences amongst Christians, that would not, in and of itself, reflect upon the clarity of the text that I was looking at.

Would you agree with that? Yeah, I agree with that. OK, all right. OK. Now, that's where the

Quran says that even in terms of your reading the

Quran and your understanding the Quran and your interpretation of the Quran, there are matters that you will never be able to resolve in this world and they will ultimately be judged by God.

And that is also true when it comes to Christian -Muslim relations. That's where the verses from the

Quran, where you have pointed out that God will be the final judge between the differences that we have as Christians and Muslims and differences that people will have within each faith tradition.

For example, if there are Ahmadiyyas sitting here, if there are Shias sitting here, if there is another group like the

Ha 'is sitting here and they are saying that this is not what the Quran says and I'm saying that this is what the

Quran says, very clearly, we acknowledge these differences, but the matter is not referred to the ultimate judge.

There is none. Would you say, however, that the Quran is very clear and that the early

Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God as an excess and as something that is a blasphemy and a falsehood?

Yes, the Quran is very clear about that and the Quran stands by its assertion. And that's where the

Muslims can't resolve this because the Muslims take the position that it's an argument of the

Quran. So, we are referring the matter ultimately to God. He will be our judge as to who was filling the cup because none of us were present when these things were happening.

So, there has to be, this matter has to be resolved and I said that not everything is going to be resolved in this world.

There will be a final judgment for all the assertions people are making about many different things, just not about the divinity of Jesus and the crucifixion of Jesus.

The Quran says very clearly that they did not crucify Jesus, they did not kill

Jesus, and there is no way for any one of us to prove that it was the other way correct.

Can you understand why a Christian, looking at Surah 4, verse 57, would struggle to understand why in light of the unanimity of all the first century sources that Jesus was risen by.

In fact, do you know who the Jesus Seminar is? I received it, it's even on TV. Here's what it says, okay.

John the Apostle filled the cup and educated him on the reliability of the

Gospels. And one of the things he said, here's a man who is a really liberal critic of all the revelations of the

Bible. He says that one of the few facts of history that we do know for certain is that Jesus died on the cross, on the cross of Sion, in the first century.

So can you understand why a Christian, looking at everything that comes out of the first century that says

Jesus died on the cross, would have trouble accepting something that comes 600 years later that has no direct historical connection in overthrowing the entire testimony of all of the early followers of Jesus?

The Christian will have the trouble. That's why the Qur 'an is telling them, in spite of their trouble, the

Qur 'an is making it clear, the Qur 'an is presenting its argument, and the matter is left for each one of us to do that.

That's why I think it's not going to be decided between you and me, or between the Muslims and the

Christians, or within the Christian community, if they want to take certain positions at various, with each other.

But given the fact that, saying the story of 4157 is the first moment, I think you'd probably agree with me, and please correct me,

I'm a student of Islam, not an expert in Islam. But my study is of that particular text, and especially the relationship between the two periods of time.

As I understand it, there is no Hadith tradition whatsoever in the

Pentecostal era. Even Muhammad understood that text to me. And studying this for over 200 years,

Muslims had no direct recollection of Muhammad's own interpretation of that text.

Since there are people here who interpret that text very differently than you do, you have an ambiguous text 600 years later versus the entirety of the

Injil, which the Quran also says not to judge by. I mentioned rationality, logic, as being something

God has created us to judge with. How can one as a Christian, logically and rationally, take a text that is not clear, that is not moving, that is not clear in their speech?

How can I take a text 600 years later and overthrow the entirety of the evidence that I intellectually recognize comes from the time around the time of Jesus?

How can I do that? Okay, I think we have to acknowledge one thing, that there are certain things that the

Quran is making claims about. It's not that the

Quran is presenting evidence for that. The crucifixion of Jesus is one such matter.

The Quran is saying that they say that they have killed Jesus or crucified

Jesus. The Quran is saying that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified.

Now, will there be a resolution of this? I believe that it's a matter of believing.

You look at the entire Quran and you look at the entire teachings of the

Bible and then you make a judgment saying that based on these other reasons,

I consider this source as to be more reliable as compared to that source.

You are making a judgment. But that judgment, whether it's valid or not, is not going to be decided today.

That's where God says in the Quran that on the day of judgment, on the day of judgment, these matters will be decided.

They are not going to be decided today. Rupert, I did not bring my car up here, I apologize. But I have a question.

That's not unless the sponsor of 4157 actually said they neither killed him.

So could not someone interpret that to be Jews specifically? No. No.

The Quran is making an absolute statement. The Quran is not leaving room that somebody else, not the

Jews, but somebody else killed him, not the Jews, but somebody else crucified him.

The Quran is making a very definite statement that they did not kill him.

They did not crucify him. When Surah 547 tells the

Afalun to you to judge by the things contained therein, when my scriptures consistently testify to you that Jesus is the

Son of God, I'm not going to wait for the Quran saints to deny it either, but that he has eternally existed as a divine person, and they do so consistently.

If I am to judge these things, what confidence can you give me as a

Christian that the Quran accurately understands what the content of the

Gospels, what the content of the Torah really was? Since the

Quran, in my recollection, only quotes the Bible two times, and they're both text that can be easily quoted by memory or by voice, not by direct citation, given that the

Quran does not seem to interact with my scriptures in a documentary way, how can

I judge appropriately in light of Surah 547? Okay, the

Quran means you, you yourself, pointed out that the Prophet was not a person who had access either to the

Old or the New Testament. That's a given. That's a given. That's where the

Quran makes it very clear that it's not a book written by man. It's a book that has been revealed by God who knows what he revealed in the

Old Testament and what he revealed in the New Testament. And the

Quran, as a word of God, challenging both the people from the

Jewish faith and the people from the Christian faith that this is the word of God.

God knows what is the truth, and he is letting you know that this is the truth, that they did not kill him, they did not crucify him.

Now, if you insist on that, God is making it very clear in the verses of the

Quran that this matter will be judged when all this is over.

So, if this is not the words of Muhammad, I don't believe that, then why do we have a misidentification of the doctrine of the trinity in Surah 5 and 16?

Because even if you don't believe in the trinity, a lot of what it was, did not. How can you have a misidentification of the

Christian doctrine if these are only the words of Allah? In what ways you are saying this misidentification of the 5 and 16 that says that we are to worship

Mary and Jesus as God and there are nations of Christians that have never heard of that?

The Christians worship Mary and Jesus even today?

Why is it that we have all these statues and images and people standing for Mary and Jesus and us, you know, when this thing will be...

This will be perfect, because now you can be in a period of asking questions or taking questions. Would you like to come up here because I'm getting wind of so much talk.

So, it's not a problem. Okay, I mean, I agree. Would you like to take this? No, but I wouldn't consider it to be a debate.

As far as I'm concerned, I've made my point very clearly and objectively.

I don't plan to have any more questions of Dr. White. If he wants to continue, you know, to shed light or ask questions further,

I will. We can continue on with all these questions. We'll just try to answer as many as we can.

I'm gonna hang out in this room so I can stay back here and ask questions. You guys wanna stay close together?

We'll just let us know which one's happening. Okay, and I'm not going to give you any specific time.

I'm just gonna ask to keep the answers brief, maybe one or at the most two minutes. And whoever the question is asked of,

I'll ask that person a question, and then I'll give the other person a brief response. So, please keep the responses brief.

And if the initial responses go out and go over, say, 90 seconds or more, or two minutes,

I'll hold up a hand so that you wrap it up. Why don't we give him 90 seconds? 90 seconds? To give a brief response.

90 seconds for the person to whom the question is directed and 45 seconds for a brief response.

Is that okay? Yes. Okay. And for everyone out there,

I have a pile of questions up there. If I don't get to everyone at home, I apologize. Trying to go to the questions that are most directly related to the topic and the short answer.

Now, this one is for both, directed towards both. So, I'll give you each about 90 seconds for a response.

Beginning with Dr. Ortega, I suppose. In order to connect with God, both

Abraham and Moses taught us the need for forgiveness through sacrifice for sins. Are Muslims contradicting

Moses by approaching God without sacrifice? Well, as I understand the question,

I would agree that sacrifice was given to Moses and to David.

But I believe that that sacrifice was given to them as a picture of what was coming. What the

Hebrews in the New Testament makes it very, very clear, is that those sacrifices would be fulfilled in a perfect way.

And a final sacrifice would be given by one who would transcend the blood of the bulls and goats.

And of course, that becomes the sacrifice of God. And that becomes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It does raise one question,

I hope it's a matter of contradicting Moses and David, as not seeing the fulfillment of Moses and David's words.

The fulfillment of Moses and David's words regarding sacrifice is seen in Jesus Christ.

They recognize that there is a need for the holiness of God to be satisfied in the punishment of sin.

And that is one of the major differences between us. The Muslim believes that the law can simply forgive a sin without his law being rectified, without his holiness and his holy standards being met.

And that is one of the fundamental differences between us. I would say the prophets of the Old Testament are unanimous in their assertion of this necessity of a sacrifice, and that that sacrifice is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ for us today.

And Mom, Saeed, same question at the same time, about 90 seconds, on whether the

Quran is contradicting Moses, because Moses said that we approach

God through sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. Now, when we are talking about these sacrifices, we are assuming that all believers have the resources to offer the kind of sacrifices we have in mind.

When we take the case of a person who has no resources at all in the form of sacrifices that are conventionally given, what is the situation for that?

The Quran is not contradicting the idea of sacrifice, but the Quran is making it very clear that even when you are making those sacrifices, you have to sincerely acknowledge your mistakes.

Don't believe that simply by making the sacrifice your sins are going to be forgiven.

You have to return to God in sincerity in addition to offering the sacrifice to be forgiven.

So this idea that simple sacrifices will make up for the sins that people have committed is not valid based on the

Quranic approach. There has to be sincere turning to God. If you could stay right there, this next question will begin with you on the next one.

How can an imperfect man obtain salvation on his own when we all come short of the

Kingdom of God? Meaning that I have never said anything based on the

Quran. I have never said that an imperfect being can achieve this perfect salvation.

I have very clearly said that it's our imperfection that makes it necessary that in spite of our best faith and righteousness, we turn to God for asking forgiveness for our shortcomings.

That's a very clear given, but we are not saying that it has to be a perfect person for it to be salvated.

How can an imperfect man obtain salvation on his own when we all come short of the glory of God?

So, the question seems to assume I think a beautiful foundation, and that is that the holiness of God requires imperfect righteousness.

That is the message of the Bible, that only those who have perfect righteousness will be able to stand before a holy

God. How then can we find that perfect righteousness? The message of the New Testament is that perfect righteousness is only to be found in the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is ours by faith.

We bring nothing to God. We bring an empty hand of faith, and that empty hand of faith then receives the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as the gift of eternal life.

Dr. White, will you stand? Dr. White, if Muslims believe in Jesus as being, but they believe in Jesus as a prophet, can they be saved by that belief in Jesus?

That's one of the reasons that I went to John chapter eight. There is every part of my heart that would like to say,

I would love to have anybody who just acknowledges Jesus to be saved, but there's a problem with that. God has a purpose in the gospel, and his purpose is to unite people to himself so that they come to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ and be conformed to his image. And that's why Jesus said in John chapter eight, those

Jews believed Jesus was a prophet. They believed, some of them believed he was the Messiah. It was when he claimed to be before Abraham, the

I am before Abraham, that they picked up stones and stoned him. The Jews would have loved to have had a

Messiah who could feed 5 ,000 from a couple of fish and some loaves of bread, that would have been great. But the problem was,

Jesus wouldn't give them the kind of Messiah that they wanted. He taught that he had come from the father.

He taught that he was the very bread of life. Anyone of us wants to have spiritual life, he defined it only in him.

And it was that exclusivity. It was that not allowing for other ways that was so offensive to so many people.

And so the only answer I can give is a biblical answer. No, that's not enough. Jesus said to Jews who believed that Jesus was a prophet, you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

And if we love the people, then we will not compromise on that message because that is the

Lord. I have a brief response to James's sentence but the initial question was, can a

Muslim be saved when they believe in Jesus as a prophet, not as Lord? If I may go back to the verses that were recited in the very beginning, the 36th verse makes it very clear that it's not by believing what

Dr. White says we need to believe in terms of Jesus.

We very clearly say that we need to believe only as the prophet, nothing more, nothing less.

And then it says, based on what the prophet says, referring to Jesus, and thus it was that Jesus always said, where you lead, die with my sustenance as well as your sustenance.

So worship Him and Him alone. This is the statement.

This is a good follow -up to that question. We'll have 90 seconds. What is the meaning of salvation in the

Quran? And is there a word for salvation in the Quran? What is it? Explain, please. So is there a word for salvation and what is salvation according to the

Quran? Okay, the word salvation, of course, is English. In Arabic, it's nadad.

And nadad is a very vague term. What is more important for us to recognize is that there is a very clear reward and punishment idea that has been laid out in the

Quran. That people who live the lives of faith and righteousness will be rewarded, not only to the extent that they engage in that, but there will be even more.

And those who refuse to listen to the guidance from God and live their lives very faithlessly will face

God and they will have to face the reckoning based on whatever question they will be asked.

It has nothing to do with believing in Jesus the way Dr. White has prescribed us.

Okay. Brief response, Dr. White, for the five minutes or so. Well, this simply takes us to the issue this evening.

If the region that the Quran says was sent down by God makes one's relationship with God dependent upon who

Jesus Christ is in faith in Him, and we are commanded to judge on the basis of that region, then how can we rationally hold the

Islamic position? We have an inherent contradiction. Now, from my perspective, it comes from the fact that the author of the

Quran didn't know the New Testament, thought that what he was saying was consistent with the New Testament, but it wasn't.

But the problem is, if you start with a presupposition that the Quran is the words of God and that's not even a possibility and you literally would consider that possibility, well, then you're left with a contradiction.

And that's really what the whole issue is. I've been trying to emphasize that this evening, but I'm out of time.

Question for you, and this is a good one, really good one. Dr. White, if it is problematic for the

Quran to misrepresent Christian beliefs, such as including Mary in the Godhead, why do you not find it equally problematic when the

New Testament misinterprets Old Testament scripture, such as Matthew 2 .15

and Hosea 11 .1, each of which I've called my son? Hosea is obviously referring to the

Exodus, not maneuvering us to escape Herod. There is a fundamental problem in question and that is not understanding or recognizing the category of errors that this alleged

New Testament makes. The nature of prophecy in the Old Testament, if the

New Testament cited those texts and changed them, or if the New Testament said

Isaiah prophesied and came up with something that Isaiah never ever dreamed of, then you would have a parallel because Surah 5 .16

is making exactly that kind of argument, something that Christians don't do. I understand modern

Roman Catholicism and his teachings about Mary, and I've debated him on that subject, and I'll tell you right now, even they will say that you're not worshiping

Mary. I agree with you that it is completely inappropriate, but that's not what the

Christian doctrine of the Trinity ever has been. Mary has never been a part of it. The Holy Spirit's not just the angel

Gabriel. So if you had a gross misrepresentation like that, then you'd have a parallel. What you're saying is, well,

I don't think that the New Testament writer is interpreting the categories of Hosea in a grammatical, historical way and making an exegetical argument, and of course, in prophecy, that's a given, to completely different things.

One, well, I don't like the use of this particular text. Another, well, Christians believe something Christians have never had to believe.

There is no parallel in that case. Imam Sahih, would you like to respond to the brief response?

The question is, Dr. White is saying that the

Quran has a problem because it misrepresents Christian belief, but is Christianity misrepresenting the

Old Testament? First, one thing that we need to recognize, the

Quran was revealed after the time of Jesus. And the

Quran has made references to a number of things that, according to Dr.

White, can be attributed to Indeed or Gospels, but what we know, as of now, that these

Gospels were written after the time of Jesus. And the writers of the

Gospels have said whatever they have said a considerably longer time after the time of Jesus.

So where is it that we can assume that these Gospels were the word of God?

When the Quran says that Indeed was revealed, it is basically laying out a principle, not confirming that the whole

Gospel as it has been preserved is the word of God. Okay, next question is for you.

Can humans live, so Islam calls us to live a righteous life, can humans live a righteous life and have faith in God without the power of God guiding and leading that human life?

It's very clear that you use your entire faculty of reasoning, intellect, and spirituality, but ultimately your life of living righteousness is only through God's mercy and His grace.

He has to enable you to live that kind of righteous life through His mercy and grace.

It's not that you have control over it. So in fact, when you believe in God, you are acknowledging that you are really a very weak person and it's only through the help and guidance and strength from God that you can live the life of faith and righteousness.

And you always ask God to be with you in every time you are attempting to live that righteous life.

All right, brief response, James? There is a fundamental difference between us in regards to the nature of sin and what it does to mankind.

As long as writers have been consistent now for centuries, it's a denied concept of original sin. And the fact that we are born as sons and daughters of Adam and we have that in our nature to rebel against God.

And so I think there is a fundamentally different view between us as to how sin affects us and whether we can, in and of ourselves, break free of its power and its authority over our lives.

Next question is for you, Dr. White. Let me go up here. If salvation through Jesus is the absolute truth, then why didn't the prophets before Jesus preach that, especially if the relationship between the

Father and Son was there since the beginning? Well, while the relationship between the

Father and Son was there from the beginning, it was not revealed until the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The trinity is primarily revealed in the coming of Christ in flesh and pouring out of the

Holy Spirit amongst the people of God. And so while we have some glimpses in the

Old Testament, certainly that tremendous text in Isaiah 9, a child will be born to us.

Those are the normal terms. The very same imperative root found in the third Ayah, Surah 112, they yell it. A child will be born to us, normal kind of birth.

He was born a man, but a son will be given to us. Psalm 2, kiss the son lest he be angry.

There are these prophetic pronouncements, but they did not become clear until the incarnation of Jesus Christ, until he actually appeared to the flesh.

And so what the prophets taught was belief in God and acceptance of his promises.

And that those promises were found in the scriptures, that God reserved his word, which he did.

We know what the word of God was, what had been given to the people of God in the days of Jesus.

And we know what was written at the time of the New Testament. Yes, the Gospels were written after Jesus, but far closer to the time of Jesus than anything the

Sunni Muslims accept in regards to the days of them. So I'm not sure why the fact they're written later somehow means that they are lessons of mp3 recording that we wouldn't have afforded.

Obviously, that wouldn't have been the case. Imam Sadiq, a brief response to that question before I give you yours.

So if salvation is in Jesus, why didn't the prophets always preach salvation to Jesus?

I think the audience knows the answer that I'm going to give. So it doesn't make any sense for me to keep repeating what

I have said, that these are ideas that are not all mentioned in the

Quran in any way. And the Quran is very clear that this notion is not valid, that Jesus was

God, he existed from the beginning, and it was made clear at the time of incarnation of God's incarnation like Jesus.

So when we don't accept this very notion, I don't think that we have to respond to it.

Imam Sadiq, and then I think here we have to wrap up after this. Prophet David clearly describes the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in the

Psalms. So Jesus is talked about, salvation to Jesus is talked about in the Old Testament. What do we have about Muhammad in the

Old Testament? It's related to the salvation question, the picture of salvation.

If I'm reading this correctly, the picture of salvation presented by Jesus is mentioned in the

Old Testament in Psalm 22. So Jesus being crucified in Psalm 22. What is there about Muhammad in the

Old Testament? I'm failing to understand what is that?

I think the point is there are prophecies about Jesus in the

Old Testament, Jesus coming to offer salvation. Are there prophecies about Muhammad coming with his message in the

Old Testament? And it's slightly off topic, so if it's... I'm sorry,

I still don't know what to say. Okay, let me... Okay, each one last question here.

I know it's a question. In Isaiah 9, 6, it's said that a son will be born who would be the mighty

God. So a child that's going to be born is going to be a mighty God. If Jesus is not the fulfillment of this prophecy, who is, and should we be looking for another

God -man? I just want to repeat what

I said earlier. These are things that have been said in Bible or Gospels.

And the Bible takes a completely different position. So I don't think that there is any way that we can accept this notion and respond to it.

It's really not a relevant question. All right. Pre -response,

James? Well, and that is the issue before us this evening.

It is my understanding that at least one ancient source reports that Muhammad, when the

Torah was brought in his presence, got up from the cushion he was on, and he had the

Torah put on the cushion, and he said, I believe everything is what it is. We know that the

Jews had, in the 7th century, that would have been placed upon that cushion, and it includes words by Isaiah 9, 6.

It speaks of one who would come, who is called El Gabor, the mighty God. And so the question is, how can we accept that these books are from God, as though God says they were, and yet not accept what they themselves state in their text?

All right, Mr. Reed, Dr. White, you have a brief response. As long as you clarify, maybe this is the last question.

Yes, the last question, and then the closing statements. Then the closing statements, okay, good. Dr. White, you said that the

Quran reflects poor knowledge of the New Testament. However, the Quran mentions many biblical stories, that of Joseph, Moses, Jesus' miracles.

In fact, Moses is the most talked about prophet in the Quran. The biblical stories of the Quran and Judeo -Christian scripture match to a great extent.

Why is this? Well, I think it's excellent, and sadly, probably most of the

Christians here if I were to ask you if you've read the Quran, you would say you have not. And probably for most of the Muslims who've read the

Bible, you have not either. It seems to be one of the problems that we have. But when you look at the stories that they are narrated in the

Quran, you discover that they very much bear the mark of a plural tradition. That is what you would hear as people were talking about their religious faith, especially when the

Prophet was a young person. But you do not have a text with reliance upon the Old Testament text.

And what you do have are changes in the story that reflect an overriding idea that prophets have to be particularly holy.

They do not represent the picture of the prophets that the Old Testament itself gives in regards to the sinfulness of men, the fact that God works with sinful men.

And so the changes that are introduced into those Quranic stories, 600 years after the time of the

Testament, thousands of years after the actual writing of the historical narratives of the prophets in many cases, reflect a concern that we'll know would never be something like that.

Solomon would never have one of those wives. Actually, that then indicates an editing process that's gone on in the thinking of the person related to these things, which

I do not think actually reflects history itself. Imam Saeed, isn't there a lot of agreement between the

Bible and the Quranic stories about the prophets that are set up in the shi 'a? The way the

Quran presents itself has to be understood very clearly. The Quran is according to the

Muslims, is a word of God. It's not the writing of someone.

Whether it's a word of God or not, that each person who comes to look at the

Quran will have to decide. You're not going to take the word for granted.

And that has been the challenge of the Quran, both during the time of the prophet, and since then.

The prophet, Salman, made it very clear that I'm not saying it from me,

I want to know. This is the word of God that has been given to me, and I'm giving it to you.

So you look at it, you decide for yourself whether what this word is saying is reasonable and acceptable.

We are not talking about whether Muhammad took information from the

Old Testament and the New Testament, or the things that were presented. This has to be very, very clear.

Alright, sorry again, if we didn't get your question, I saw the big pile up there, I'm sure there were some, in fact I know there were some good questions in there, but we got a bit of a late start, so we're going to have to go to conclusions now, and both gentlemen might be able to stay around a few minutes afterwards to answer any of your questions.

And so, we're going to begin with final statements. Dr. White will have seven minutes, and we'll be followed by seven minutes with Imam Zayed.

Well, first of all, let me thank you very, very much for being here this evening, you've been a very attentive crowd.

I know that sometimes the location is difficult to get to, especially those of you who don't drive to the city a lot, and so it's very good for you to come this direction.

I'm very, very thankful for that, and I thank the church for once again giving us this wonderful location to have this very important and meaningful dialogue, especially,

I thank the Imam for taking his time, and for doing so on such quick notice, and I really desire to see more of these kinds of dialogues take place, because I think it's vitally important that we show a respect for truth, that this does illustrate, we live in a land starved for a love of truth.

Many people are very apathetic about truth today, especially when it comes to the existence of God and his promises to us.

What we have heard this evening has been a comparison of two different positions, and they are very different positions, and we have not in any way, shape, or form whitewashed those differences.

We have seen a consistent testimony from the text of the Testament in regards to who

Jesus is, and while we have agreed that Jesus was a man, he was a prophet, he was a virgin born, that he worked miracles, that he had a special relationship with God, all of those things we agree upon.

What we disagree upon is the consistent testimony, not only the prophetic utterances of the

Old Testament, but likewise, the consistent testimony of all the

New Testament, to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus has eternally existed, that Jesus came specifically to give his life as a ransom for sinners.

This was the message of the original followers of Jesus, but interestingly, the Promise says, allow them to be victorious over their enemies until the

Day of Judgment, and yet, everything that comes from the first century, those first hundred years after Christ was dead, speaks of the crucifixion of Jesus.

The first people who come along and say anything against that are called Gnostics, and they deny Jesus died of the frost because they didn't believe

Jesus had a physical body in the first place, so they're hardly the people that our Muslim friends should be looking to.

The reality is, all of the evidence that comes to us, that has any meaningful connection to Jesus, to Jerusalem, to the periods in the area of Israel, et cetera, et cetera, anything that comes from that time period, anything that comes from that area, tells us that the early

Christians all taught the same thing, that Jesus was the Son of God, and that he died upon Calvary Street.

That is the historical foundation, that is what history tells us, there is historical evidence of these things, that's what it tells us.

We go 600 years down the road, we travel 700 miles away, we change language and culture, and we come to someone that we all admit was not even literate in the sense of a man of letters and learning and things like that, and we have a book that is given to us, and this book contradicts what has come before.

Now, I don't think that the author of that book ever thought it was contradicting what came before, but he didn't know the book.

And if we read backwards, if we put lenses on and look backwards and make that the filter through everything, now we have to accuse all those writers of either completely misrepresenting

Jesus, or not knowing the truth about Jesus, or we have to make allegations of corruptions in their scriptures, all sorts of things like that.

From the Christian perspective, you see the consistency of the prophecies and the fulfillment of the New Testament, and anything that comes after that that does not speak in accordance with that truth is to be rejected.

And in fact, I would argue that that actually is the argument of Surah 5, beginning around verse 40 or so, because the author thought he was being consistent, but he was not.

And so we have to look at that, my friends. We have to look at what the evidence presents to us.

We can't just simply say, well, the Quran's right. Can you not go beyond that?

Can you not say, it's right, and here's the evidence? And can you be consistent when you make that argumentation?

One of the saddest things that I've experienced in my encounters with my Muslim friends over the past hundred years has been how many of them are willing to grab hold of the writings of people that come from a completely different worldview, atheists and naturalists, people like Bart Kearns, or people promoting

Gnostic myths and things like that, just to attack the New Testament. They'll never use that worldview when analyzing the

Quran. All of them will. They'll use one standard for the Quran, another standard for the New Testament. I say to you, use the same standard.

Test them both. And when you do, you'll find one to be consistent. And that's why

I believe what I believe in. I mentioned earlier, I consider myself a student of Islam.

I don't think that at my age I could ever become an expert in this world. But I have taken time to try to the best of my abilities to understand and I learned from others.

I learned from all those that I had these dialogues with, and I thank you for that. But I have attempted as best

I can to accurately represent the best of the other side. The best the other side has to present.

And I have obtained materials on the ancient Quran and manuscripts and things like that because I want to make sure that I'm being accurate and that I'm not applying a different set of standards to Islam than I'm applying to my own faith.

And I simply ask any one of you here this evening who hold to any form of the

Islamic faith, as you analyze what I have said this evening, please recognize that you need to do the same thing if you are going to be a believer of truth.

You cannot use one standard in rejecting what Paul wrote in Philippians chapter two and then a different standard to believe whatever

Muhammad wrote 600 years later. You can't do that. If you're going to believe in prophets and revelation, then be consistent.

That's all I ask of you. Listen to what we have said this evening and examine it a little more.

Thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I join

Dr. White to express my thanks and gratitude for the hospitality that the church has extended to us and your sacrifice of coming here to know what we have to say.

And I want to take it from there. I have come to share with you whatever little

I have learned from my life. And you have come here to share with us in terms of the way you have asked questions.

And from both sides, we need to know very clearly that we are on the path of seeking the truth.

And this search for seeking the truth never ends. And that's where what we need to acknowledge that our mindset has to be a mindset of willing to look at all the information, all the evidence that's going to be presented to us.

And after listening to Dr. White, I can say one thing very clearly that in the case of Jesus, whether it's his divinity or his crucifixion,

I failed to see any evidence that will tell me that Jesus was divine or his crucifixion did happen.

And that crucifixion is the way to find truth.

And that's where we need to acknowledge. What I'm going to say based on the reference that you had in the beginning,

Dr. R is very clear that all the prophets, including

Jesus, they came to share their understanding of the absolute

God with their people. And they did their best to enable whoever joined with them to show them how they can grow and develop further.

And we know very clearly that during the time of Jesus, there were people who clearly rejected him.

They rejected him as a valued person. They rejected his faith.

We cannot assume that Jesus, when he was born and when he was performing his mission, everybody accepted him.

There were people who rejected him. And they rejected him very vehemently.

So I beg to draw your attention again to one very critical question.

Are we going to continue to find, with whatever resources we have, the path and the way to connect with our

God and serve him to the best of our ability? The Quran lays out a path today.

And as Dr. White pointed out, the Old and the New Testaments lay out a path today.

So it is up to each one of us to decide which is the path we consider best for us and seek our final salvation through that path.

And may our Creator guide us to the path, Dr. Ray, and may he bless our efforts in a way that we are going to find the salvation at the end.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.