March 21, 2018 Show with Jim Osman on “Truth or Territory? A Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arntzen.

You're host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of March 2018 and I'm so delighted that I got recently An email from my friend Justin Peters who many of you have heard on this program Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries who is not only a world-renowned author but very popular Bible conference preacher and teacher.

Well, he highly recommended that I interview his pastor Jim Osmond and I would certainly never pass up the opportunity to Interview anybody that Justin Peters recommends. Jim Osmond is the pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho and Today we are going to be addressing his book truth or territory a Biblical approach to spiritual warfare and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Jim Osmond.

Hey Chris, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it very much. It's an honor to be here. Hey, it's it's my pleasure brother and.

Before we go into your testimony because as I try to always do Especially when we have a full two-hour program I would love to have you give an account of the religious upbringing you experienced as a child if any and What were the circumstances that the Lord providentially used to draw you to himself and save you.

Then before and before we before we do that. I just wanted to have our listeners. Know something about Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai Kootenai, Idaho.

Yeah, we're closer to. Better known as standpoint, Idaho. We're just a little little town outside of standpoint right up by the US-Canadian border. Our church is a non-denominational community church a small church.

Located here at the foot of a beautiful ski mountain and then right on the shore of a beautiful lake in northern, Idaho. It's it's exquisite up here, so we are a Conservative. Not fundamentalist, but more of a sort of a Baptistic or John MacArthur type of a church.

We are a Calvinistic in our theology at least. Our leadership is and do expository preaching and Sure, and all that we do elder led. That's our congregation.

Great. Well being at the foot of a ski mountain. Do you often have? Unfortunate and perhaps Less than skilled skiers crashing through your church windows.

I.

Just kept thinking of the the old wide world of sports Opening on ABC television with the the agony of defeat Yeah of the skier Crashing down the hill and by the way I heard that he was not very seriously injured after that just so people don't think I'm making fun of that.

Yes. Well now, let's hear something about Your own personal experience growing up what religion you were raised in if any and how the Lord saved you.

Yeah, I didn't really grow up in in what you would call a religious home church was not part of our upbringing at all. I have some great grandparents. One of them was I think a believer the other one was a Seventh-day Adventist and Possibly a believer as well.

And that was kind of the religious heritage of my family. I grew up with a single mom and one sister and we never went to church though my mom would read the Bible to me on occasion and I never really became interested in the things of God until I was in my early teens when my sister met a family a couple doors down from where we were living and The son of this family had the entire Hardy Boy book collection and I was a Hardy Boys fan and loved the mystery series and read them and I had to go down and see this for Myself and I went down there and turned out this was a Christian family and their son was a believer and and He started talking to me and befriending me and witnessing to me about the things of Christ.

And I kind of was trying to lean towards evolution and atheism and a bunch of other different viewpoints myself and I started attending Sunday school at the church that I now pastor at Kootenai community and Attending Sunday school in youth group and as a result of the ministry of the church.

I heard the gospel. They sent me to a local Bible camp where for a week during the summer months and my my first week at camp my very first year 1985 I heard the gospel Empowers Paul says in the Holy Spirit in the Holy Spirit in first Thessalonians chapter 1 and that's when the gospel came alive to me and and I believed upon Christ and by God's grace, I I trusted him and It was as if my entire world had gone from black and white to Technicolor and Dolby surround sound in an instant.

And I knew that forever my life was changed. And I had heard the gospel I think probably dozens or hundreds of times at the church in Sunday school and in youth group. But it wasn't until at that moment with that appointed time and destiny that God drew me to himself and regenerated my heart.

I've been a believer since 1985 and a few years later after I graduated high school I went to Bible College in Pembroke, Saskatchewan for four years. That's where I met my wife and and we were married after my third year of Bible College we were married and and then we moved back here to Sandpoint and I started pastoring the church that I am now pastor of here in Sandpoint in 1996 and it was the church was a small church and and they had basically sent me to Bible College and With never any expectation that I would turn around to be the pastor here.

That was never their expectation. But it's in the providence of God. That's how it turned out. And so now it's my joy to shepherd the very people that were very instrumental in leading me to the Lord over 25 years ago.

Praise God. Over your journey as a believer. Did you go through any major theological and doctrinal transformations?

Um a few, you know when I when I became a believer, I went to Bible College I've never really was intensely discipled here through the church of the ministry of the church and my teenage years in high school were a Lot of fluctuation up and down and back and forth spiritually speaking and that's what convinced me to go to Bible College.

She had a grounding underneath of me but the The college that I went to was not a denominational college and it wasn't what you would call a Calvinistic College per se. So we say Miller College of the Bible kind of attracted people from a lot of different backgrounds a lot of different spiritual backgrounds and environments.

There's charismatics people who thought tongues were okay Calvinist non-Calvinist. It was a very broad spectrum. So as a brand-new believer I was I was dropped into an environment where I was exposed to all kinds of Viewpoints and perspectives and doctrines and theology some of which I adopted and had to later jettison and some of which shaped me Even today to who I am.

By the time I left my fourth year of Bible College, I was what I would have called a four-point Calvinist Limited at home. It was always one that was very difficult for me to embrace and It wasn't until after I started preaching and it was in the book of Ephesians chapter 1 through chapter 5 that I had a Reformation of my own thinking in that regard and fully embraced all the doctrines of grace as a result of preaching through scripture.

So when I left Bible College, I was I was pre settled in my theology. I didn't really have any any major changes that needed to take place. But since then in 21 years of preaching through the scriptures that might become more refined in my theology I think but I haven't really had to jettison a whole lot.

The the view that I critique in in truth or territory on spiritual warfare Was a view I had adopted early in my Bible College years. But by the time I was in fourth year, I had totally had a change of perspective on that issue as well.

Well, praise God yes. As far as I'm concerned once you pluck one of the petals off the tulip the whole flower dies. Because I don't think that you logically consistent. I don't think you could be logically consistent if it unless you believe all five points.

Yeah, they're all tied together. If you believe one of them eventually you have to embrace the entire Systematic theology of what salvation entails. Otherwise you you end up just contradicting yourself in so many ways.

And of course that is not to mean that I am dismissing as my brothers folks who are either evangelical Arminian or even Amaraldian the commonly called four-point Calvinist. I am just saying that I think that in order to really be consistent in identifying yourself As a Calvinist or a theologically reformed Christian in the historic sense the five points would be required, but that's another subject for another time.

And yeah, and I want to read to our audience a part of Justin Peters forward to your book truth or territory a biblical approach to spiritual warfare just to wet their appetite on This subject in truth or territory Jim Osman has done the church a great service.

He takes the confusing theological cauldron brewed by modern spiritual warfare experts. He puts in quotes and Shatters it against God's Word With precision and clarity. He demonstrates that true spiritual warfare is not a war fought with mantras and Incantations but rather with biblical truth.

Truth or territory will be of great benefit to the professor pastor and layman alike a Work like this is sorely needed in the body of Christ today. And it is my prayer that your obedient walk with our King will be both enriched and simplified by its reading.

Jim is a personal friend of mine and one for whom I have the utmost respect as a pastor theologian husband-father and disciple of our Lord. I commend this resource to you with great joy and enthusiasm and that is Justin Peters From Justin Peters org, by the way, if anybody wants to hear my interviews with Justin Peters Just to go to the iron sharpens iron radio website and type in Justin Peters in the archive search engine and you'll have a number of them appear, but This is an interesting title to begin with.

Jim a truth or territory a biblical approach to spiritual warfare. Tell us what you mean by territory in this title the book.

I try to contrast two perspectives on spiritual warfare and I'll take the first that the second one first and that is territory. There's a territorial view to spiritual warfare, which you'll see evidenced anytime.

Most Christian authors most Christian preachers and it's certainly everybody nearly everybody on TVN begins to talk about Spiritual warfare. They speak of it as Something where we as Christians are engaged in order to recapture territory.

So it it breaks down into all these practices whereby we we plead the blood of Jesus over our children our house our church our city block our nation our county etc, or you of you speak certain incantations or prayer like mantras about Binding Satan and cancelling hexes and generational curses.

Almost as if warfare is to claim back either physical or spiritual territory that's been captured by Satan and it's certainly evident. That view is certainly evident in and what is sometimes called a strategic level spiritual warfare or Prayer walks where people will pray around city blocks.

Or they will try and name demons over certain counties or certain municipalities and begin to bind those demons or to free up That territory for an invasion of the gospel so it is the perspective of spiritual warfare the territory view that you see most evident in most Christian circles and That is the Satan claims these these dominions these places strongholds and our job is to break them down and at first blush.

Much of that seems very biblical until you start to examine some of these practices in their proof texts in light of Scripture. And I contrast the territory view with the truth view. Which is that spiritual warfare is indeed a fight against strongholds, but that these strongholds are not physical or territorial.

They're their truth their ideologies their worldviews their isms their theologies. Which are militantly set up and opposed to the gospel and to the advance of God's truth. And so our job in being involved in spiritual warfare is not to bind Satan but to resist him.

It's not to cancel generational curses or to pray prayer mantras to claim territory. Rather it is to advance the truth by preaching the word living the word being obedient serving the king and And seeking to engage a lost culture with all of their isms and their faults theologies and ideologies.

It's a battle for truth not a battle for territory and that's the name of the book and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a.

Question of your own. For Jim Osman our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chr is a are n ze n a gmail .com. Whether you agree with Jim. Whether you radically disagree with them. Whether you're just not certain perhaps you're not even a Christian.

I know that there are folks who are Muslim and Atheists and agnostics and people from all different types of background who do listen to this program. So feel free to voice your question and your opinion.

At Chris Arnzen at gmail .com, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Otherwise, please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country.

Your residence. If you live outside the USA now. How would how would this? View of territorial Protection and preservation. That many of those who would claim to be spiritual warfare experts Engage in.

How would that differ from a father with his wife and children gathered around them in their home and Perhaps when they bless the meal or for any other reason that the the father is leading the family in prayer.

Perhaps he even knows that they live in a dangerous neighborhood or something and he prays for God's protection over that house that he prays that no evildoers enter through the doors or windows of that home to do harm to any of those living there and You might even go further and say that the father prays for the school where his children go.

Etc. You could go on and on. Those seem like completely normal acceptable and and even perhaps typical things for Christians to pray about even if they are Far removed from charismatic influence. So what would be the difference?

I.

Would think I would not take exception with any of those kinds of prayers. I prayed the same thing for my own kids in my own family. I I think it's legitimate to pray for safety for security for God's blessing and his protection to rest upon people who are in dangerous situations.

We even our nation for instance. With that even our nation for instance is another one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we as my family We even pray that for our missionaries that God would keep them safe in the environments that they serve in Etc.

And and there's I don't take issue with any of that. What I would take issue with or what I guess I I think is an unbiblical approach is to think that In order to protect my missionaries I need to say pray hedge of thorns around them as if saying I pray hedge of thorns around this missionary and I Plead the blood and claim the blood of Jesus upon this missionary family as if saying those words themselves.

Somehow build some sort of spiritual hedge around those people. What I would argue is that we are looking to God himself as the source of our protection. And we're asking him to be a rock and a deliverer in a fortress and a strong tower for these people we're not trusting in some magical hedge some magical mantra that we speak or prayer that we utter or some Incantation in order to affect this deliverance for this protection or this provision.

So what you're saying is that many professing Christians treat prayer very often like it is a magical spell of some kind.

Yeah, when I was in my first year of Bible College, I had a somebody give me a tape. That was a message delivered by somebody I don't even know who the name was at the time. But I must have listened to tape 15 times because it was about how you can you can Secure the salvation of your unsaved friends and family members.

And I have a lot of unsaved friends and family members who have never made any professional faith in Christ. And what I wanted for them was for them to be saved as well. So I listened to this tape and he went through a step-by-step process.

And the very first thing you need to do is you need to do a distant exorcism and and you know Exercise demons and Satan and then you need to claim them by name and and renounce any Generational curses that are over top of them and then you need to pray a hedge of thorns around them.

And then you need to plead the blood of Jesus over them and then then you can pray that the gospel would advance after you have deep back and and pushed back all the demonic powers and the strongholds and The territory that they have taken.

Then once you have delivered all your family members through these prayers these incantation like prayers. Then you can have a free reign for the gospel free access for the gospel. And I mean, I took notes and and and made record of everything I was supposed to pray and started doing this for my Friends my family members and did it for a couple of years and until I was exposed to the fact that none of this is.

None of this has any biblical warrant in Scripture.

One thing that you might find fascinating is that I years ago at the request of my Boss my general manager at a Christian radio station where I work. He urged me to come with him to see firsthand Rodney Howard Brown Speaking at a very large charismatic church on Long Island, New York.

So I went with him to appease him and to be able to discuss the heresies and errors and dangers of the event later on with him. And one thing that surprised me was that when Rodney Howard Brown walked out he actually started to mock Charismatics who prayed in the fashion that you are discussing.

He actually said that he was sick and tired of Pentecostal and charismatic Pastors praying demons out of the room and praying for his protection when he went to those places to speak. He boldly and arrogantly and defiantly declared when I walk into a room the demons scatter.

And.

What he appeared to be doing what I surmised in his speech which went on You know much longer than that in those regards. He was trying to put the audience at ease. To not fear that what they were witnessing was a demonic activity.

That's what I Assessed from what he was saying. Because right. Immediately following his speech about that. There were all kinds of very bizarre Manifestations occurring. But that but isn't that interesting that he was taking a different approach than most in the extreme charismatic circles would take.

Yeah, yeah, that is. Yeah, almost like he was. How would you say he was sort of setting the table beforehand to remove that objection? You know, whatever you think this manifestation is it can't be demons because they don't like me, right?

Well, we have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania named Gordy. He asks or says it seems that a grab-bag hermeneutical approach to scripture May be to blame for misguided spiritual warfare. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I would agree with that. It's a lot of the passages that are quoted for some of these practices cancelling generational curses and binding Satan and rebuking demons and Strategic level spiritual warfare and praying heads of the thorns.

These are based on I believe texts taken out of their context and misapplied and misused. Sometimes even made making pray building entire theologies on the individual phrases out of Scripture.

Yeah, and like for instance, I know that sometimes Old Testament events Will be cited, you know marching around the walls of Jericho and things like that. Have you heard that? Event specifically being used as how doing a physical thing like that was used by God to bring about victory for his people.

Oh, yes. Yeah. When I was in third year Bible College we went to a missions conference in Calgary, Alberta. Our entire third-year class did and it was required attendance for I think one of our missions classes and this keynote speaker was Dick Eastman.

And Dick Eastman at that conference and this was in 1990s meant to 92 or 93. I think Dick Eastman made the claim that God had revealed to him that if the Berlin Wall was to come down He needed to fly over to Germany and and pray on location at the Berlin Wall and March seven times around some statue of Lenin or or somebody in East Germany.

So he did that and came all the way back. And if memory serves me in a story He realized that that wasn't sufficient. He had to take people with him so it a whole group of people go over and do the same thing.

And then the Berlin Wall came down and I sat there somebody who grew up in the 80s being a lover. Personally admirer of Ronald Reagan and what he did against communism. Thinking of myself Dick Eastman is claiming responsibility for bringing down the Berlin Wall because he went over there and prayed for it physically.

And he cited the passages in the book of Joshua about watch walking around the walls of Jericho and how the walls came down. He used that as his Proof text for how he brought down the Berlin Wall through his prayers.

Now why would and and and. Why would that be an inappropriate use of something like that in your opinion?

Well, because what's taught in Joshua there is descriptive and not prescriptive. You don't see the apostles see any reference in the New Testament the book of Acts of the Apostle Paul walking around the city of Corinth claiming territory before he went in or walking through the streets of Athens binding and demons and casting them out.

The Apostle Paul went into the synagogue as was his custom and He showed from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God and that the Messiah must suffer before he entered into his Glory, that was his pattern.

He just went in and engaged people with the truth took the Word of God and brought it to people. He didn't he didn't go into Athens with all of their idols and all of their all of their statues. Even the idols the unknown God and Paul didn't march around the Areopagus and claimed this territory and binding Satan.

He walked in with the truth and he engaged people with the truth of Scripture. That's that's what spiritual warfare is. So you can't take you know. Just one of those one of those references of some story of what God prescribed for a group of people in a certain historical situation and make it.

Something that you just jerk out of its context and use for your own purposes to endorse your own method of spiritual warfare and.

By the way Gordy in mechanics Berg you have won a free copy of truth or territory a biblical approach to spiritual warfare. By our guest Jim Osmond. Since you live in mechanics Berg just swing by the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com who is Taking care of those books until they are shipped out normally to listeners all over the United States.

But since you're local they will hold that for you to come by and pick it up. That is if it ever stops snowing here in Carlisle and mechanics Berg because we are still having quite heavy snowfall. After quite a long period of time and it's it's piling up out there, but thank you very much for contributing your question today.

Gory.

We have Joe in Slovenia Who says dear brothers Chris and Jim would it be correct to say that generally speaking there are two primary errors? When it comes to spiritual warfare one being over emphasis and the other under emphasis.

It seems that the common tendency is to blame every sin every conflict in every problem on demons That need to be cast out or completely ignore The spiritual realm and the fact that the Bible tells us our bottle our battle is against spiritual powers.

How important is finding the right balance in spiritual warfare? And if so, what is the balance? Thank you for investing your time in God's people today. Yes, I Wholeheartedly agree that there are two extremes with this and I am the first to admit that I think that the circles of Fellowship where I spend most of my time theologically reformed conservative Christians we tend to go overboard in under emphasizing the reality of The demonic realm and that kind of a thing and of course Our charismatic and Pentecostal friends can have a tendency to go overboard in overemphasizing This issue and finding a demon under every rock as the old saying goes if you could respond to our friend in Slovenia.

Yeah, there are two errors I deal with that in the book. I think that Satan delights in either one of those errors if he can get Christians to ignore the fact that he exists and And never give him a single thought throughout the course of the day.

I think he's happy with that. I also think he's happy when people think that he is to blame for everything. I think he's delighted to take credit for anything He can take credit for. And if he can get us off on Off the beam in terms of our spiritual warfare and how we think we are should be addressing Satan or dealing with His attacks or his existence.

Then he wins that battle as well. If he can get us. If he can get us distracted. If he can get us. Thinking that we're accomplishing some advance of the truth by binding him which is just absurd or praying hedges the thorns and protection and and Pleading the blood of Jesus over things and thinking this is this is true spiritual warfare.

When we neglect the truth war and if we neglect the truth war he wins because all he needs to win that war is for his life to stand. And if we're never engaging people with the truth of the gospel the truth of Scripture and bashing down the false ideologies and theologies that exist then Satan is quite delighted to let that happen because He's fine that people living in error continue to be blinded by error just so long as Christians think that battling for the truth is is Is the secondary issue or even not not a necessary issue?

And.

We are going to our first break right now. Excuse me if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own I would do so very quickly because The questioners are are lining up here. There are quite a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by our guest Jim Osmond.

But if you'd like to get in line Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as I said before Please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and by the way, Joe in Slovenia. Thank you for providing an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia for us to ship This book to you or should I say have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

CVBBS .com ship this book to you at a much more affordable rate. And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS .com for always shipping out all of our winners of Bibles books DVDs CDs and other items that they Win through submitting questions to our guests on iron sharpens iron radio, and so don't go away God willing.

We're gonna be right back with more of Jim Osmond and truth or territory a biblical approach to spiritual warfare. Right after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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So keep your eye open for more details and updates on when pastor Bill Shishko will be back on iron sharpens iron. And we are discussing today truth or territory a biblical approach to spiritual warfare with our guest Jim Osmond pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai community church in Kootenai, Idaho.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please always remember to give your first name city and state and country of residence and we have a Pastor in Ohio with a question.

I normally only give the first name of Listeners when they write in questions, but when I when a pastor writes in I typically like to acknowledge him by the full name that he goes by and that would be pastor TD Hale in In Gallipolis, Ohio, and I'm sorry if I am mispronouncing that pastor Hale.

He is a first-time Questioner on the program and he says as a pastor. I feel like I'm fighting against it all the time. What can I do to break the old that seems to be in this area and has been for years?

Break the hold. I'm sorry. What can I do to break the hold that seems to be in this area and has been for years? There was a civil war and a battle with Indians. There seems to be among people that thought that chief Cornstalk left a curse, which I do not believe in our area.

What could I say or bib? What can I say or biblically I? Guess he left out a word maybe teach. What can I say or biblically teach to bring a greater light in my area? Thank you. Pastor Hale. Are you there?

Now now let me let me ask you a question is that is that entirely Something that is pure fantasy like for instance, I have heard I don't even know if it's historically verifiable or documented. But I have heard for instance that one of the reasons that Haiti is in the horrendous state.

It is in agriculturally and with Sin and many other things that are going on there.

The.

AIDS and so on that. That the a former president of Haiti had sold his soul to the devil and so on. I mean, do we completely rule out things like that?

Well, I don't know if you rule them out. You can I guess you could acknowledge that some of these things are true. Some of these things do happen. I don't. I don't doubt that there's demonic worship. False religions and worship of demons involved in different world religions and cults that have a Blinding effect upon people and I I wouldn't even suggest that it cannot be Something that you find more intense in some geographic areas than others.

I think if you go over to if you go to other parts of the world you find a Sort of a darker spirit in some some climate some some geographical errors than you would find in Kootenai, Idaho or where you're at.