Interview With Arrested Canadian Pastor, Tim Stephens

Tim Stephens’ Background and Call to Gospel Ministry

Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today. I want to thank you very much for joining me for this podcast, and I have the special privilege of being able to interview Tim Stevens.

Many of you have probably heard his name. Tim is the pastor of Fairview Baptist Church in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and Tim, along with James Coates, is one of the pastors who has been arrested. Tim has actually been arrested twice through all of this situation with COVID and the Alberta Health Agency and their ordinances and all of that stuff.

And many of you, most of you watching my channel, have probably seen the interviews that I've done with James, and maybe you've been a bit more familiar with James Coates and his situation, but Tim has gone through much the same thing, and he has been a tremendous encouragement to me as I have watched him and how he has, not only the stand that he has taken, but just the way in which he has carried himself, his demeanor, his care for the flock.

Been a great encouragement to me, and I know that he will be to you as well. So, okay dear ones, I'm gonna interrupt myself here for just a second, and I want to let you know something about the end of this video.

So, after the interview was over, Tim and I talked for a few minutes afterwards, and it was still recording. Now, normally, I mean, it's very common when I interview someone, we, you know, exchange some pleasantries at the end or whatever that's not included in the video that I post.

So, Tim and I talked for a few minutes, and as I watched that later, I thought, you know, I'm just gonna leave that in there. So, there is some behind-the-scenes footage, if you will, towards the very, at the very end of this video.

So, do watch this all the way through to the end. I'm gonna include that behind-the-scenes stuff because I think even that will encourage you. So, anyway, be looking for that towards the end. Tim, brother, thank you so very much for coming on to the program.

Well, thank you so much, Justin, for having me. Absolutely, absolutely. So, Tim, you are the pastor at Fairview Baptist Church in Calgary, and before we get into the legal situation and all that has transpired, give us just a little bit of an overview about yourself, who you are, maybe a kind of a bird's-eye view of your testimony and how long you've been at Fairview.

Yeah, I grew up in Eastern.

Ontario, here in Canada, and then actually came out to Calgary in 2004. I had just finished university in 2002, and by no means was church, Christianity, ministry anywhere on the radar for me. I came out here to Calgary because we are oil and gas, sometimes we're called the Texas of the North, and so I was here and working as a software engineer, writing software for oil and gas companies, and it was actually in 2006 that a message was sent to me and to my current girlfriend and soon-to-be wife, Raquel, and someone sent us Paul Washer's shocking youth message, and that just began to open our eyes, and we started listening, looking for more Paul Washer.

We found John MacArthur, and I read his book, Gospel According to Jesus, at that time, too, and that was, it really removed the veil over my eyes where I thought, you know, Christianity was you pray a ask Jesus in your heart, and then you go on your way.

So that really presented me with what the true gospel is, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, and it was still a process of God dealing with us and with our sin, and so it was at 2008 that we could tell by our love for the church, our love for the Word, and just a faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that God had saved both my wife and myself, and we experienced a change in our desires and what we wanted to do with our lives.

Expositional Preaching and Shepherding the Church

This wasn't long before God gave me a desire to want to tell everybody about the gospel and what it truly was, and so I got counsel from the pastor of a church we were going to then in Calgary saying, you need to go to school, and so I went to Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary for three years from 2010 to 2013, and then when I was finishing that up, we had friends who were attending Fairview Baptist in Calgary who asked if I was done school, and so their pastor had just resigned, and so I applied thinking that, well, I was new to the faith, and this would be my first pastorate, but the church flew me out to Calgary from Detroit area, and I had a good couple weeks with them, and so I started ministry as a pastor at Fairview Baptist Church in January 2014, and the church was much smaller then than it is now, and there was a number of issues that the congregants identified to me as they came, but my goal was simply to preach the truth, preach God's Word section by section, and allow God to mold and transform and to change this church, and by God's grace, He's done that over the years, and then, of course, these last number of months, our church has been brought more into the limelight as we've just continued to meet and to do the very things that we've sought to be doing over the last number of years, be faithful to God's Word, be faithful in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, amen, amen. Praise the Lord. That's the power of expositional preaching. It's the Word of God that changes people, that shapes the church and keeps the church healthy, so praise the Lord for that.

Well, Tim, so you've been in the news quite a bit, so give us kind of the cliff note version. I know there's probably a lot of details, but how you came to run afoul with the powers that be, the government there in Canada and COVID, many overlaps.

In fact, you and James Coates know one another, correct, and are friends. That's right, that's right.

We were acquaintances before all this happened, and of course, our friendship has grown over this time as we've walked a very similar path. Understandably. But here in Canada, COVID restrictions came upon us in March of 2020, and so March 15th was our last Sunday.

That was somewhat normal, and the predictions here in Alberta, we have four and a half million people here in Alberta, and the predictions here were that 30 ,000 or more were going to die because of COVID, and so seeing images from Italy and from China, our church followed almost everybody else, where we began to scale back our services for the safety of our own congregants, and so for a number of weeks, the end of March and through April, we weren't meeting.

We were just communicating with each other online, but it became apparent that the virus was not as they had said it was going to be, and it just wasn't the crisis that they had predicted, and there was a hungering for our church to be back together and to be with one another, and so we had a few congregational meetings, and I actually wrote an essay for our church about the importance of gathering, looking at the people of Israel in Egypt when Pharaoh was seeking to define the terms of worship, the same thing happening in Babylon with Daniel and with his acquaintances there, and then again in Rome whenever the Pharisees sought to command the disciples what they can or cannot say, and so I kind of led the congregation through that, and the majority of our congregation was in support, and so before we received official permission from our government or allowance to meet again, we started meeting again in May of 2020, and we just continued meeting, and we didn't make a big fanfare, a big deal of it, and so as we met through the summer months, of course, restrictions a bit eased during the summer, and then as fall continued, we continued to gather without requiring people to wear masks or not or distance or not.

We just allowed people to come according to their own convictions, and things really got publicized, I guess, in January. There was complaints made against our church because our parking lot was still full, even though we weren't supposed to have many people in our church, and so in January, police came and gave me a fine at that point, just a $1 ,200 fine, and as we continued to gather, the consequences that the authorities continued to level increased, and so I've received a number of not fines, but rather court summons where a judge would actually decide the penalty for disobeying the Public Health Act, and that can range from up to $100 ,000 and up to $500 ,000 for repeat offenses, so I've got about six or seven of those, and then they stopped doing that, and we continued to meet, and through this time, we had trauma within our own congregation as we had differences of opinion, and we lost some people, even people in our leadership, but as our resolve grew, because through all this time, we just became more and more convinced that because Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and that He is the Lord of His church, and the church is His bride, and He determines how the church gathers and worship, that we need to obey Christ rather than men, and so our convictions in that area strengthened until in May after one church service, the police were outside, and like they were on most Sundays, observing our services, and after that Sunday service in May, May 16th, they arrested me in the parking lot, brought me to jail or in prison where I was there for three days, and eventually, the charge for that particular Sunday was dropped because the police had wrongfully given a court injunction to somebody else and not to me personally, and so after I was released, they regave me that court injunction to me personally.

They did it right that time, and they also locked up our building. That's similar to Grace Life Church. They didn't put fences around our church, but they did change our locks and prevented us from accessing our building, and so for the month of June, we met outside, and it was one of those meetings that the police were surveilling us even with a helicopter, and they came to my house on Monday to arrest me for one of those outdoor meetings because the outdoor gathering room at that time in Alberta was 10 people, and so we were over that, and we still were not requiring people to distance or wear masks, and so they arrested me, and then I spent 18 days in prison until the restrictions here were loosened on July 1st, and so I was able to come out because that court order was rescinded on that day, so I spent most of the month of the latter half of June in jail because of meeting together and facilitating the meeting of our church.

Wow. So even though you were meeting outside, they said you could only have 10 people gathered for an outside meeting?

That's right, and the week following, the restrictions were supposed to change to 150 outside, and so we thought that because the restrictions were easing, there was probably very little chance that they were going to continue to ratchet up the enforcement, but they decided, and here in Canada, everyone passes the buck, so the politicians say this is not their call, it's the call of the police, the police say it's not their call, it's the call of the Alberta Health Services, and so everybody tries to shift the blame about who is actually running the show on this enforcement, but it was surprising that even at the end of June where our COVID numbers were incredibly low, where an outside gathering is next to zero chance of COVID transmission, that they would still want to arrest me and put me in jail because of gathering for church, which is incredible.

Unbelievable.

I never cease to be amazed at the logic of not only government authorities, but just a lot of people in general through all of this, it's just dumbfounding to me. But the notion of arresting you for meeting outside, as you said, chances of transmission of COVID or any other virus, for that matter, outside is practically zero, and just unreal.

Well, that's right, in both my arrests, we have never as a church had an outbreak of COVID. A few of our members have gotten COVID over this past 16 months, but there's never been any transmission within our church.

We haven't harmed anyone, we haven't sent anyone to the hospital or to the intensive care unit, and so all this enforcement is for what may happen, and it seems that specifically they choose to pick on churches and pastors here in the province, even though there are so many who don't follow the rules, and even our own premier, similar to a governor in the state, he's the head of our province, even he was caught red-handed breaking the with an outdoor gathering that didn't follow the guidelines, but yet, of course, no consequences for him.

No, rules for thee, but not for me. We've seen that down here in the states too, the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, has been caught on camera multiple times violating his own restrictions and protocols and guidelines and all that, and yeah, it's just the hypocrisy is astounding.

Yeah, your premier didn't spend any time in prison, but you did.

That's right, that's right, and it's hard to believe that. I've been there twice as a pastor, so my kids are getting used to it. They say, Daddy, when you go back to prison, they're anticipating that to happen again.

They just think this is what the police do. They come and they're looking for pastors, and it's incredible that this would be happening. I never would have imagined this in a million years to happen in a country like ours, especially because of the public health rules that they would be enforcing this way.

Yeah, that is heartbreaking to hear you say that. Your kids say, Daddy, when you go back. That is heartbreaking, unbelievable. Tim, tell us a little bit about your family. You have eight children, is that correct?

Yeah, we have eight children from the ages of 12 down to six months. So kids that are full of joy, we have the pleasure of schooling them at home and teaching them about all the things that are going on in our world today and the things that are going on with COVID right now.

So they're well aware of history in the past and of governments who have asserted this kind of control over the population before. So I'm thankful that it's been a teaching moment for them. They've been able to see their parents live out the faith and their convictions to follow Christ no matter the cost.

Amen. And, you know, I told James the same thing. I think you saw the interviews that I did with him. I said one of the, you know, not that what happened to you or to James was a good thing in and of itself because it wasn't, but God works all things that individually are not good, but he works them out all together for the good.

But one of those things that one of the good fruits that will be born from this is his kids, nor your kids, your kids will never have to wonder, do mommy and daddy really believe what they say? Does daddy really believe what he says on Sunday mornings behind the pulpit?

Does he really believe that? There's no question. You have lived that out. They've seen you live out what you profess to believe. And boy, the impact that that will have on your children is just incalculable.

No, that's right. Because we've, our children, we sought to have them. It's said that the modern day secular heroes, the heroes that they have are men like John Bunyan or Jim Elliot or people in the past.

And so to be able to see that happening today with either own father or James Coates or others, it has really put flesh on the bones of some of these men who have gone before us, who have paid much higher prices and have been in much more difficult circumstances.

But it shows them that followers of Jesus are serious about putting Jesus. He is Lord. He is King. And we obey him over every other authority. And so it's important for them to see that.

Yeah. And it's not that you don't have respect for the governing authorities. It's not that you don't obey the governing authorities. But when it comes to the church, the government does not have authority in the church.

That's right. The church belongs to Christ and all authority belongs to Christ. So any authority that any other earthly institution would have, it would be authority that has been delegated to it by Christ.

And that's right.

So in the last year, people have accused me of being overly political. But I think what has happened in this past year is not that the church has become more political. It's that our government has become more religious.

They're now dictating in terms of worship. They're dictating marriage and sexuality. They're doing the very things that God has called us to do. And so we have to speak into these issues and we have to obey God first.

Yes.

I love the way you put that. It's not that the church has become more political, but the government has become more religious. Wow. I like the way you put that. So, Tim, in the weeks leading up to this, as tensions kind of ramped up between you and the government there, I asked you this last night, so I know the answer to it.

You and I talked the last night before. For those watching, was there ever a time as things got more serious and you and Raquel, am I pronouncing your name correctly? That's right, Raquel, yes. Did you and Raquel in the conversations that y 'all had, was there ever a temptation to say, you know, we don't like what the government is doing.

We don't like this, but let's just play along, hold our nose, do the best we can. We'll have online services until things get back to normal and just kind of bend our knee to Caesar, even though we don't like it.

But let's do it to avoid being persecuted. Let's do it to avoid me going to prison. Was that ever a temptation?

No, it wasn't a temptation with the increasing enforcement by our secular authorities. I think the biggest turmoil that Raquel and I went through was back in January when our story first hit the news and it was on secular media and a number of people in our community or city, in our country were sending us hate mail and writing comments on our Facebook page and just saying that we're so despicable and we're ruining everybody and we're hurting our community and even having so much vitriol from other Christians, a variety of stripes, saying that we're such a terrible testimony to Jesus.

There's actually an article published by a pastor who's a megachurch pastor here in our city who said that myself and James Coates and others who are open are blaspheming Jesus' name by being open and not following the government during this time.

And so that was difficult, but it didn't really change our demeanor, our resolve. But when we had internal turmoil within our own congregation because of all the negative attention, that really caused a number of people in our congregation to have second thoughts about our course of action.

We had a number of people who stopped attending. We had leaders who were just not so sure whether this was the best course anymore. And those internal conversations became so difficult and we wanted to, as best we can, try to accommodate all of our brothers and sisters whom we so dearly loved before this happened.

And so that really gave us just really internal consternation trying to deal with the internal strife within these brothers and sisters that you've ministered with for years. But then we realized that it just was impossible to satisfy everyone that there is like this issue has presented people on different sides.

And so we had to stick with our convictions that we even had before enforcement increased and in fact, we sought to clarify with my teaching and such through emails and through preaching, just try to solidify with our church why we're doing what we're doing.

And so that way, as enforcement increased, we were already committed to our principles. We were already committed to the doctrines that we were going to stand on. And so we didn't know how far it was going to go.

But each step, we kind of counted the cost. When they said, when they essentially issued me six or seven of these court summons that carry hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines, Raquel and I had to sit down and say, are we willing to lose our house over this, because we might do that?

And so we say, yes, Jesus is worthy. We can lose our house and he'll care for us. Raquel and I had to sit down and say, are we willing to lose our house over this, because we might do that. And so we said, yes, Jesus is worthy.

We can lose our house and he'll care for us. And then whenever there was threats of arrest, when they served me that injunction, which the penalty for that was to be put in jail, knowing that James had spent 35 days in jail, are we ready for me to go to jail?

And again, yes, Jesus is worthy. There is no amount of fine, no amount of jail time that is going to keep us from obeying the Lord Jesus Christ. And through that time, God just strengthened our faith, strengthened our resolve, and then gave us so many brothers and sisters in our own church around the country, around the world that are praying for us and encouraging us.

And so our faith certainly grew through that time and our resolve grew through that time.

Yeah, indeed. I think Charles Spurgeon said, I'm certain that I never did grow in grace one half so much as I have upon the bed of pain. And it is these trials that conform us more into the image of Christ and make us lean harder on him.

Brother, it was a heartbreaking video, one of the most heartbreaking videos I guess I've ever watched was the day that you were arrested the second time, of course, first time you were just in jail for three days, but the second time was better part or more than more than two weeks.

Yeah. 18 days. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, two and a two and a half weeks or so. But to see your family, your children huddled around you and Raquel and just, oh gosh, that just ripped my heart out.

It's not the civil magistrate's job, the government's job to regulate or restrict our worship. And so we're freely coming together, peaceful citizens to worship Christ because he is worthy. In terms of what that means now, I don't really know.

The government has obviously turned up the heat on churches, trying to discourage them from gathering together. I think they don't understand that Christians are committed to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of the consequences.

That's different.

Thank you. Thank you. Adam Stolz here for Rebel News with a troubling update. Pastor Tim Stevens of Fairview Baptist Church has been arrested for proceeding with worship today. For those of you not familiar with Pastor Tim Stevens, he's nothing like Pastor Artur Pawlowski.

He's a quiet, reserved man who is simply leading his congregation in worship. He didn't make this a large political deal. He wasn't an outspoken opponent to the authorities. He simply wanted to proceed with worship.

Well, in Alberta, in this day and age, apparently that is not to be tolerated. So he was cornered today after worship by a large police force, he and his family. I just got off the line with our videographer, K2, who was on the scene, and he told me it was the hardest thing he has ever seen.

Do you have any questions about worship? I don't have any questions. Okay, fine. Whatever. I'm satisfied. Thank you. Do you need his wallet? Let me keep it. Thank you. Thank you.

The Arrest, Jail Time, and Treatment by Authorities

What was that like for you, your family, the time that you were in prison, your children? How did Raquel and your children deal? Just kind of walk us through some of the emotions of that day and then your time in jail.

Well, the Sunday before, we had a great outdoor service. Because we were outside and not constrained by the space of our building, we had a number of people join with us, and it was a great time of worship and fellowship together.

We spent the day outside together as a family of faith. And then on Monday, it was no Monday, we'd take Mondays a little bit slower after a busy weekend. Sure. And I actually got a phone call right after lunch from my lawyer saying, he's got word that the police are coming to arrest me.

And it gave me a bit of a heads up. And so he was able to contact media, which is why people have been able to see that arrest. Because a couple of reporters came to film it. And so he gave me a heads up.

And so what we did, we headed down to our living room. And we were all in a bit of a blur about what was coming. The kids started to cry because they knew what was going to happen. And so we just sat down and we enjoy singing psalms together as a family.

So we sang some psalms and we prayed together and essentially waited for the police to come. And then when the police came just maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes later, after that phone call, you can see some of the conversation in that video that we had where it was tempting to appeal to these men.

I've sought to appeal to the police officers as they've come to give tickets, as they've come to serve me court injunctions, as they've come to lock up our building, I sought to appeal to them because we have a constitution in this country.

And that constitution protects religious freedom and assembly and a conscience. And those laws are permanent, not like temporary health orders. And those health orders don't supersede the constitution.

And so I sought to appeal to these men. And sadly, as even I'm sure some of your viewers have saw in that video, the police officer was trying to instruct me with Scripture about why we ought to obey the Caesar in this regard, and bow our knee to Caesar in this regard.

And so it's certainly, for a police officer like that, he's hearing that from other pastors who are telling him that because of Matthew 18, two or three are gathered, but you don't have to be gathered together, Zoom is fine, and give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

And I guess that includes the church as well and restrictions. So he was trying to instruct me on this.

Darrell Bock He was getting that from other pastors. John Savers I mean, that's the assumption, yeah, that would be the natural. Darrell Bock Wow.

John Savers. Because that's the refrain of most churches here in our province. That's what they continue to say, continue to appeal to Romans 13, continue to appeal to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and the matters of public health are given to the government and not to the church.

And so we should close our doors. So it's incredible. So we tried to have a conversation with them, to no avail. And so I wanted to try to comfort my family, prayed with them again, said goodbye to my wife and my children, asking them not to be angry at the police officers, because I know that's a temptation of our older children to be very angry with the police officers.

And so as they then drove me to the arrest processing station, the police officer continued to appeal to me because I could be a free man if I would agree with them that I would follow all health orders, and I would not lead my church and gather with them to worship, but rather, if I followed all the limitations that the government imposed, I could be home with my family.

And so even going to the police station that afternoon and being in a cell, I had a police officer come by, I had other police officers in the station there come and try to appeal to me, to sign the papers saying that I'm going to agree so that I can go home with my family.

And I tried to tell them I can't do that because I can't agree that I will disobey Christ. I can't agree that I will not pastor my church. I can't agree that I won't assemble and worship as Christ has called us to.

And so they didn't think going to jail was worth it, but I said, no amount of threats. And certainly, jail time is the biggest threat and biggest punishment that our government can level against someone here.

And so I think they were just trying to use that to scare me and others into compliance. But ultimately, it shows that these orders are unreasonable and they're willing to go at unreasonable lengths to try to keep their own authority intact.

And they see pastors and churches as threats to their power and to their authority. And I think we see that in every culture, the proclamation that Jesus is Lord is a stench in the nostrils of tyrants.

It's hated by people who seek to domineer and to rule people, to say that there's another Lord that's above you, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, indeed.

Wow, brother. What a, oh my goodness, what a testimony to your faithfulness to be given multiple opportunities. You know, just sign on the dotted line and this will all be over. You know, oh, wow. James had the same opportunity.

And like you, he had to obey God rather than man.

And one neat encounter of that was one of the guards at the jail that I was in on Monday night before I was sent to the remand center, which is a longer term prison facility. One of the guards there was chatting with me because he heard I wasn't going to sign and he was curious and his background is Roman Catholic, but I was able to share with him the gospel.

And then again, after being presented an opportunity to sign and I refused, which meant I was going to go to the remand center, you know, a maximum facility prison. He was just astounded. He says, he says, I've never seen anything like this before.

I've never seen someone so principled. And he was really struck that I'd be willing to do this out of obedience for Christ. And so it created a real impression upon him. And I'm thankful for that. And I hope that I have opportunity to speak with that gentleman again, that he would maybe come to church and be saved after that encounter.

Indeed.

Wow. Boy, if there's some way you have of getting in touch with him and inviting him to come to church. Wow. Well, James, that kind of, James, sorry, Tim, that kind of leads me into my next question. Tell us a little bit about your stay in prison.

What was that like and, you know, maybe the, maybe the environs and that kind of thing and the logistical stuff, some of that, but also your, your interaction with the inmates. Right.

Yeah. You know, some of the, the cells that you're in, as you, as you, first of all, are processed to get in there. They're certainly, they lack any creaturely comforts and it's a very uncomfortable place.

And essentially you go from cage to cage, even when you're transported, it's, it's, it's more like you're treated like an animal when you're transported between different facilities and even to the courthouse or back, you know, they put you in full shackles.

So when I went from the police station, then later to the prison on Monday night, you know, I had, I was, I had handcuffs and then a chain down to those, to my ankle shackles and tied up. And so then being brought to a cell where, where you, where you wait, and then after that comes, comes a strip search.

They do a scan of your body to make sure you're not carrying any drugs. And then some of these things are, it's almost laughable, but they just took me from my family or in May took me from my church and then would go through this process.

But I understand they do it with everybody as they come into this facility. So it's, it's very dehumanizing. It was very jarring when, when I went through that in May. But in June, going through the second time that you're, you're more prepared mentally as, as what is ahead and how you're treated by the guards.

Because for the most part, the guards, they treat you like any other criminal. And and so it's, it's, it's a very, it's a very dehumanizing process to go through. And when you get into your, your jail cell, it's very, very basic.

You know, there's a, there's a small bunk bed on one side and there's a small little desk and a shelf on the other. And then there's a toilet that's just open into the room. And it's, it's a, it's a small space, so you don't have much space to either walk around or do anything much in there.

And so you spend a lot of time on your bunk and there's a very thin mattress there and they give you a few sheets and you have to use some sheets to cover you up for, for warmth and the other sheets you can roll up and use as a pillow.

And that's about all you have for the first few days until you're able to, every guard I asked going into jail, I asked if I can get a Bible. And so eventually three days in, I was able to get a Bible, you know, asking for pen and for paper.

And so slowly, slowly you accumulate some of those things that become precious to you. So of all the things in prison that were precious to me was, was the Bible, was a notepad and a pen. Otherwise your mind is racing about all the things that you're thinking about.

And so to have pen and paper there to jot some of these things down is so very helpful. And then you're in that cell, especially because of COVID, there was a quarantine process you go through. So you're in that cell for, for 23 and a half hours a day.

And so you come out for half an hour and you can, you can make a phone call. So I call my wife and you can have a shower during that time and talk to some of the other inmates. But you have a very short time before you're back in and you never really know when you're going to come out.

And so I never really know when I'm going to be able to talk to my wife next or find out more about what's happening to the church or to the upcoming gathering on the next Lord's day or how long I'm going to be in there.

So one night, one day I know I was out at eight 30 in the morning for half an hour and then back in my cell. And then I wasn't out again till eight 30 PM the next day. And so, and my wife was waiting, waiting for that phone call, waiting, waiting for me to call so that I can let her know what's going on.

And so that was, that was difficult, just, just really not knowing what, what is coming the next hour, the next day, the next week when you're in there. But one of the blessings is getting to know some of the inmates, you don't have much interaction once you're in your cell and you're in a unit of cells.

Once you're in there, you don't have much interaction with the guards. They sit behind a two-way mirror, they're in a bubble and they control everything with the push of a button and through the intercom.

So you don't really have much interaction with them, but you do have interaction with your cellmates. And I had a cellmate the whole time and, and we had almost like a bit of a cohort as six of us really were checked into that prison around the same, same day or so.

And so I got to know some of these guys and they, for the most part, the guys in prison, they're, you know, they, they look rough, they look tough and they look mean, but then as you, as you begin to get to know them, you realize that these men for the most part are hurting men.

These are men who've had, had very tough paths. Most almost everyone that I met didn't have a father in their life. Almost everyone that I met had, had, had drug addiction issues. And so these, these men were just broken and hurting and, and, but they were so respectful to me.

And I've never seen so many tough guys, you know, cry as they begin to tell me their story. And as I sought to take gospel truth and apply it to them. So I was thankful for the opportunity to speak the gospel to people who are atheists, people who are professing Christians, but obviously not living out that confession to the Lord Jesus Christ in their life.