Matt Slick Live: September 18, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at CARM .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. Make your list of Matt Slick Live, and as usual, if you want to give me a call, it is easy.

All you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

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I study everything. I don't have all the answers, but I have a lot of them. So if that sounds intriguing and or fun, and you want to ask me the most difficult question you can, maybe you're a non -believer just kind of accidentally tuning in and you're like, what the heck is this show about?

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And my real name is Matt Slick, S -L -I -C -K is my real name. And hopefully we'll get a lot of callers in today.

So there we go. Everything should be ready. Everything should be good. And we're going to get to George from North Carolina here in a second.

And we've got three open lines, actually, 877, if you want to give me a call, 877 -207 -2276.

Now, today's date for the podcasters is September 18th, 2024. There you go.

See, a lot of good stuff. All right. All right. Let's get to George from North Carolina.

George, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you. I've got a question.

I've been hearing a lot of preaching, a lot of sermons on the three young men,

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you know, how the king threw them in the furnace and the king looked down and he saw four walking around in the furnace.

My question is this, how come none of the preachers or none of them preach on the fact that it was a miracle that the king itself could look down into the furnace since supposedly he stoked it up seven times hotter than it had ever been?

The guards that threw the boys in died instantly from throwing them in. And I'm pretty sure

God understands the law of thermodynamics. And if you look down into a flame, just like you hold your hand over a candle, you're going to get burned.

So I'm not sure I'm understanding your question, though. What's your question? My question is, how come you never hear any pastors preach on that?

Well, I don't know if pastors do or don't. I don't know all pastors, if they do mention it or not.

But I would say that what you are becoming aware of is the ones you've heard haven't mentioned it.

But I don't know if we couldn't say the preachers don't. So but I think it's worth discussing and worth focusing on and things like that.

Yeah. Okay. Unfortunately, I'm driving, but yeah, it just it just seems that they seem to overlook that particular miracle.

I mean, the king's whole entourage was walking around above the furnace, and I'm pretty sure all of them looked down and every one of them was spared to witness the fact that there were four inside the furnace and that the young boys were untouched.

And it just seems that to the story, not to point that out.

Well, you know, over the years of my study and commentaries and just hearing people over the years, you know,

I I can recall without specificity, but generically speaking, that preachers and commentators have commented on the three not being touched and who the fourth one would have been, the son of man, the pre -incarnate

Christ. So it was right there and protection in the flame, which typological of salvation would not be harmed by the judgment.

And so, you know, there's I think there's people who preach on it, right?

There. Hello. Well, you know, I guess we kind of lost him there if he wants to call back.

He can eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six.

All right. We have nobody waiting right now. So I think I'll do is jump on to some of the emails and deal with a lot of what is there.

There's one. Hi, Matt. What does it why does it seem that Paul wrote

Romans in Romans one, one, but in Romans 16, 12, it says Tertius wrote, oh, you know, we're going over this before, but all that is is a scribe or of some sort where Paul is dictating and Tertius is the one who is actually writing physically.

And so we do have another place in the scriptures where Paul says that he writes some big letters with his own hand.

I think that's one of the data talks about that. Oh, well, I think

I mentioned this before last week with with large letters, I think it is that he says large listening, find it large letters that he is writing

Paul with his own hand. Yes. Here it is. Galatians 611. See what large letters I'm writing to with my own hand.

So what appears to be the case, one of the theories is that when he was blinded in Acts chapter nine by the appearance of Jesus, that it may have damaged his eyesight and that some people think that might be the thorn in the flesh, his eyesight, and that he would have to have an amanuensis or a scribe do his writing while he was dictating.

And that's all that's going on here. And so that's why maybe it's Galatians 611. See with what large letters

I'm writing to you. And that's that's probably what's going on there. All right. All right.

So that was easy. All right. Now, let's get to another one. OK, and, oh, that's interesting.

Someone is pointing out a group of some sort. Oh, the account's been suspended.

Why would that be the case? I haven't done that. This is something else. Let's see.

There's a website. Oh, that is interesting. Something's wrong with that website. So I can't comment on it.

Take a look at it. So let's get to the next caller. If you want to give me a call or the next email, I should say, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

It is easy to do. And if you want, you can email me. That's easy. Also, just direct your email to info at CARM dot org.

Info at CARM dot org. And just put the subject line, radio comment, radio question, and you can do that.

All right. So I'm a former, oh, yeah, that's,

I forget that one. Let's go over to here. When did Jesus get the

Spirit? Hmm. That's a tough one to answer, because in one sense, in the doctrine of the

Trinity, Jesus is, by definition, in the pericritic relationship, possessing the

Spirit. But in the human incarnation sense, the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at his baptism.

So what we would say is that at his baptism is when Jesus received the

Spirit, okay? Because it was after he was baptized by it, John, that it was dove, he went into the wilderness to be tested.

That certainly seems to be the case. He was baptized for the ability to enter into the, excuse me, there we go, to enter into the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

That's what was going on there. All right. All right. Now, let's tell you what.

Let's get on the air here with Scott from Richmond, Virginia. Scott, welcome. You're on the air.

Oh, yeah. How are you doing, Matt? Look, I just, I got a quick question for you. I'm a lifetime, I say lifetime, 25 years or so of a

Southern Baptist believer. And I tell you, I've been going to a Seventh -day Adventist church here for about, going on about seven months now.

And I really, really like it. And I can't find really the reason not to, but I've heard some negative things about it.

Are there characteristics or things I haven't discovered yet that would make it, you know, not a plausible church to go to?

Yes. Official SDA theology is non -Christian and it's cultic. And it doesn't mean that the particular group you're going to isn't bad.

And I would be willing to talk to the pastor there. And you could have a conversation, a three -way, and I can, you know, ask questions.

So they are Trinitarian, and they do believe Jesus is God in flesh. But one of the things that is bad, that is really bad, is what's called investigative judgment, that the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.

The implication of the investigative judgment is that your salvation will be determined as God looks upon your life and all the things that you have done.

And that is a false doctrine. That's a false doctrine all the way. That's one of the problems.

Another problem they have is something called soul sleep and annihilation.

Soul sleep is the position that when you die, your soul goes into a state of unconsciousness, unawareness, non -activity.

And then on the day of judgment, the soul is awakened for judgment and then annihilated and then destroyed to non -existence.

And this is also false doctrine, because the Bible clearly teaches that we go on for eternity, that those wicked go on for eternity in judgment.

And I've written a lot on that topic. But here's another problem with soul sleep, because Jesus is both divine and human.

If soul sleep is true in that when the human being dies, that means the soul, the human soul goes into a state of non -activity, of just nothingness.

It's somehow still alive, which doesn't really make sense with this, but is not aware, doesn't do anything, etc.

Well, then that would mean then that the attributes of the human nature of Christ are no longer being ascribed to the person of Christ, because human nature, by definition, is self -aware, aware of others, has mind and will and things like that.

Those things would be non -existent or inactive, which then would be destroying the incarnational relationship we call the hypostatic union.

So there are lots of problems there. Plus, they tend to say that you have to worship on Saturday.

Now, if you want to worship on Saturday, you're free to. If this group says true Christians worship on Saturday, then it's behaving like a cult.

So there's lots of issues there. Plus, they consider Ellen G.

White to be a prophetess. But Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John, John the Baptist, Luke 16, 16.

There are no more prophets and prophetesses. And she was a prophetess, they said, but she was a plagiarist.

She stole the writings of other people and claimed it for her own. So she was a thief in that area.

So this is a lot of stuff of SDA they don't tell you. OK. Yeah, a lot of information

I didn't know, I hadn't come across that yet. So that's good to know.

He talked a little bit about the soul sleepers, you know, he said the dead, they had no nothing. And as far as annihilation,

I did ask about that because I did notice that one of his one of his teachings. And he said that, you know, that, you know, a merciful

God is not going to torture people for eternity without, you know, not anything.

So that's what this guy says. And whenever he says something like that, show me in Scripture where it says that, because what he's done is imposed a humanist value upon God himself, that God wouldn't do that.

Because why? Because God's merciful. He wouldn't do it. Where does that say that in the Bible? It doesn't. He's making it up as he goes.

Hey, man, we've got to break. So hold on, buddy. And we'll get back. OK. Talk a little more. Oh, I guess he's gone. And that's where that goes.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live.

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Everybody, welcome to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's 877 -207 -2276.

I want to hear from you. You can also give me an e -mail, send me an e -mail, and all I got to do there is put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question.

Just send it to info at CARM .org, info at CARM .org.

All right, let's get on the air with Paul from Virginia. Paul, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, brother.

I was wondering your thoughts on the tribulation and specifically the rapture of the church.

I've done some studying on that, and I seem to find that it's a pre -tribulation rapture of the church.

But I heard someone the other day speak of saints going through the tribulation and some different things.

I've been wondering about the last days, and if it's the last days, then the rapture seems to be the next thing on the prophetic calendar.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Well, I hope it's pre -trib rapture, but I don't believe it is.

I believe we're going to go through it. That's just my opinion. If you want, I can give you reasons for it in the

Bible, but I'm hoping I'm wrong because I don't want to go through it. I'd rather be raptured out.

That's the way to do it. But I don't believe that's what the Bible teaches. Okay? Okay.

I just wondered, because I've read about salvation saves us from the wrath of God, and the tribulation period is the outpouring on earth of God's wrath, and then from Matthew...

There's a problem there. Go ahead. See, when they say that God's not appointed us to wrath, He's not destined us to wrath, right?

I keep identifying this verse, but it's in Timothy. That's eternal, yeah.

It's not appointed us to wrath, but salvation. It's a juxtaposition. Wrath is damnation.

And so when people quote that verse, not appointed to wrath, but salvation, they say wrath means a seven -year tribulation.

No, it doesn't. It means the judgment of God upon the wicked, period, under damnation.

He's not appointed us for that. Okay. Yeah, the context would be eternal in that verse, but okay,

I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, it's 1 Thessalonians 5, 9, excuse me, for God is not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our

Lord Jesus Christ. So that word wrath there, when the pre -tribbers use it, they're using it improperly, because that's not what it's talking about.

It's not talking about tribulation period. So that's one thing. But here's something else to think about when you go to Matthew 24, oh, and by the way, you know, two men in the field and one is taken and one is left.

People say that's the rapture, right? You've heard that, right? Okay. Are you there?

Yeah. It's not. Yeah. I'm not sure. I haven't studied that. Yeah. It's not the rapture.

It's the wicked who were taken, and that's, you read the parallel of Matthew 24 and 17.

But if we were here for the tribulation period, wouldn't we be able to look at the

Antichrist and look at situations and say, oh, well, three and a half years from now, this is going to happen.

Yes. At the abomination of desolation, if we know exactly the day that it occurs.

But also in the pre -trib rapture view, the same problem occurs because it's seven years to the day that Jesus returned from the rapture, right?

So you'd know exactly the day and the hour. So that's, there's an issue there.

But the day nor the hour expression is an idiomatic expression of the wedding feast. And so that's an issue.

But if you go to Matthew 24, it says, what's the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Jesus answers the question. In Matthew 24, he says false prophets will arise, wars, rumors of war, tribulations, etc.

The abomination of desolation, which is spoken of through Daniel, will occur. So it's saying, that's right, and that, yeah, and that's supposed to happen during the tribulation period.

And then Jesus says, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, he says specifically after the tribulation, the sun will be dark and the moon will not give its light.

The son of man will come in the clouds and gather his elect from the four winds, from the sky. That's the rapture.

He says, Jesus says it's after the tribulation. And the reason we know it's the rapture is because there's only one return of Christ.

That's in Acts 1, 9 -11. There's only one return, not a return and a half or two returns, it's just a single return.

And that when he returns, I'm sorry, are not the elect in scripture generally referring to Israel, not the church?

No, when it talks about the elect in the issue of Israel, that's one thing.

But the elect are the individuals chosen for salvation by God. And this is a doctrine that the pre -tribbers don't focus on, they ignore.

It's out of Ephesians 1, 4, where it says that he, the father, chose us, that's election, chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

So the elect are the ones chosen, and also 2 Thessalonians 2, 13, it says that God has chosen us from the beginning for salvation.

This is what election is. And so when you look at the whole of scripture, the,

I'm just sorry, but the pre -trib rapture just starts disintegrating. And then another thing to throw out at you,

I know I'm giving you a lot, is look at Matthew 13, the wheat and the tares. Jesus says at his return, the first ones taken are not the good, but the wicked.

That's what he says. You go check it out. First gather the tares and burn them, gather the wheat into the barn.

There's only one gathering and that's the harvest. And that's related to 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the return of Christ and the trumpet and the angel and everything.

And so, yeah, when you start going through this, the, sorry, but the pre -trib rapture just doesn't hold any water.

Sorry. Okay. Well, I was under the impression that rapture and the second coming are two different events.

Well, no, they're not. And I have an article on my website about that that shows that they occur with the last trumpet and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

So if you were to go to my website, CARM, and you were to look up an article, if you were so inclined, the two ages in support of what's called amillennialism, and that's another topic.

But if you go through what's presented there in the issue of the, excuse me, of the issue of, uh, for example, at the end of this age, uh, in table two on that article, it's the wicked are gathered and the judgment of the wicked occurs.

And that's when the elect are gathered and that's when the harvest is. So did

I, am I hearing you right? That the wicked are taken out first while the church and the saints are still here.

That's what Jesus says in Matthew 13, 1330. Okay. Then who's the tribulation for?

I thought that was for the unjust, those who had rejected Christ.

That's what the pre -tribbers tell you it's for. They tell you what it's for. Nothing in the

Bible says it's for their, for them. It's a tribulation period coming upon the whole world.

And remember what Jesus says, flee to the hills. But the wicked are removed. So that makes it a judgment upon the saints and the elect.

The wicked are gone. The wicked are removed before Jesus, before the good are taken, which is at the end of the age.

This changes one's eschatological view significantly. Hey, hold on. We've got a break. If you want to stay on, we can talk more.

Okay. Okay, folks. We'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy.

All you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

I want to hear from you. Give me a call and let's get on the phones. Well, no, the next longest waiting is

James. So James from North Carolina, James, welcome. You're on the air. Thanks, Matt.

I appreciate that. I just a question regarding omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, et cetera.

I guess all that is confirmed. And I guess would you say that that without without reference to any scriptures, it would be fair to say that he's all three.

Yes, God is omnipotent. Actually, there's four omnipotent omnipresence, omniscience and omnisapiens, which means always all wise.

OK. Oh, OK. Great. Thanks for that. I was interested, you know, somehow some things present after reading on the first day.

And, you know, when the heavens and earth were created, God saw that it was good.

Does that does it? I know that's not verbatim. But does it not say that? Yeah. He created something that was good.

Yes. Uh huh. OK. So he saw that it was good, but in his omniscience, would he not have known that prior to that?

He didn't arrive at the conclusion, the conclusion, what?

That it was good? Yeah. Well, here's the thing about what is good.

Good can only be decided or recognized if God reveals it out of his own character.

And what we have in Revelation, Revelation, what we have in Genesis is simply God saying that what he had created is a good thing.

Why? Because it came from him. It was good. OK. Right. OK.

So he he's stating that. But but it's would you agree that it kind of sounds like he saw that after he created it, that it was good?

It wasn't OK. I wouldn't put too much into it. It's not as though there's a standard of goodness that's outside of God and God compared what he created to it and then recognizes that it's good.

God doesn't recognize that something's good. He reveals goodness out of his character since he created and he created out of his character and his essence, his nature.

Then what he did was good. That's how we know what that means. OK. OK. So he's just kind of reconfirming basically anything

I do is good. By the way, this also is good. Anything that he does is good.

And the also that he does would be in the first clause that anything that he does is good.

Right. As opposed to him coming back and saying he saw that, man, perhaps it needed a few tweaks along the way or was not.

But he saw it was confirmed that it was good. He saw it that way.

It was good because he said so, but it's not arbitrary. Goodness is not an arbitrary declaration of God.

He doesn't arbitrarily say, hey, that's good and that's not good. That's good. He doesn't do that. What is good is that which conforms to his nature.

And what is not good is that which does not conform to his holiness, let's just say. So God can certainly create certain conditions that are good and then allow bad things to work within those good conditions that he created due to our freedom and things like that.

All right. So we have to do our free will as we move in the midst, I guess.

I guess. Secondly, as he says that on the seventh day he he rested,

I guess it is omnipotence, which all powerful. You know, does this God did

God need rest? No, he doesn't need rest. It just simply says he rested.

He did. He stopped doing the creative work. He paused. He rested. He stopped.

That's all that means. Furthermore, the seventh day rest is a type of salvation, six, six days is how many days we work.

One day we rest. Jesus says that he come to him. He says Jesus says in Matthew 11, 28, come to me, all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

So what he's talking about there, what God's talking about is that the rest that we have is in Jesus.

We're not obligated to work for our salvation. Don't have to do that. And that's what that Sabbath rest represents.

OK? OK. Well, I appreciate it,

Matt. Have a great day. OK. Sure. No problem. OK. All right.

Well, we have nobody waiting. Anyway, we're going to get on the call about Lutheranism, and maybe

I'll just jump on that a little bit on very different denominations of the Lutheran, let's just say, umbrella.

And there are at least 10, the AFLC, the

Association of Free Lutheran Congregations, the CLB, the Church of the Lutheran Brethren, the

ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Now, that one I've had some experience with. And the

ELCA has basically gone so liberal that it's not to be trusted anymore.

There's another one called the ELS, Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the ILC, the

International Lutheran Synod, the LCMC, Lutheran Congregation in Missouri, excuse me, in Mission for Christ.

Then there's the LCMS, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Now, I went to a Lutheran LCMS college,

Lutheran Church Missouri College. And in there, I met individuals who are from the

Wisconsin Synod. And the Wisconsin Synod people were real, let's just say, uppity, that they didn't even think people were, some of them,

I was told this, don't even believe that salvation exists outside the Wisconsin Synod.

In other words, you've got to belong to the Lutheran group and a particular denomination within that group in order to be saved.

That's what the implication was from the things that I heard from people who knew about it. And that's, you know, that's what

I'd heard from more than one person in that context. There's also the Lutheran World Federation and the

North American Lutheran Church. So there's different Lutheran churches out there, denominations, just like there are different Presbyterian ones.

And those are worth looking at. Also, it might be fun for me to be able to go through sometime and just do a brief analysis of the different denominations that exist in Presbyterianism as well, because some of those are good and some of those are bad, just like a lot of stuff.

I have a saying, if you want to mess something up, all you need is two things, people and time.

And so even within Presbyterian circles, which are notoriously Orthodox, that you find different groups and problems and differences and things like that.

And so, for example, the OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, is very conservative, very

Orthodox, very good, very safe. Then you have the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, and that's where I was a pastor.

And it's very Orthodox also. But then you have the PCUSA, which is liberal, and I would never recommend anybody go there.

So you see, there's just different groups, different things we could talk about. There you go.

All right, let's get to Eric from Raleigh, North Carolina. Eric, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, I have a question here, not argumentative. I feel like I'm becoming more believing in one saved, always saved from listening to your show here.

But I got a question, like an honest question here. So Judas, you know, and then later in the

New Testament, Ananias, Sapphira, right? Like, so are they saved? Did they go to heaven or do you think they went to hell?

And then if that's like part of God's plan, were they just never saved?

I guess that's kind of the hard question with the one saved, always saved. So we have a lot to discuss in that.

So Judas was never a Christian to begin with, never a true believer. And the Bible talks about that,

Jesus says he knew from the beginning who it was, who did not believe. And that's

John 6, 64. This is and he says and who it was who would betray him.

So Judas is in the context of unbelievers. So that's one thing.

Now, as far as Ananias and Sapphira go in Acts chapter five, it doesn't say that they were they went to hell or heaven.

It says that they lied to the Holy Spirit and then they were killed. But it doesn't mean that they went to hell.

And the reason I say that is because the Bible doesn't say so. With John 6, 64, it is the implication certainly is that Judas would never say to begin with.

There's no implication here. It can be the case that you can have someone who's saved who blows it and God takes him out.

OK, God disciplines. Yeah. So that can happen. And because let me give you something else.

First Corinthians five. Now, this is really interesting section of scriptures actually reported among you that there's immorality among you and immorality of such as does not even exist among the

Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant, et cetera, et cetera.

For I my part, oh, absent the body and present spirit in the name of the Lord Jesus, when I assemble with the power of God, I've decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit may be saved the day of the

Lord Jesus. And we've got a break coming up, so let's talk about that a little bit more.

Can I give you more stuff about eternal security? And I can show you two reasons why it's necessary out of the scripture.

So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, there's a lot of information there. And if you want, please stay tuned. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show. When they get Eric back on, then

I'll click on him and we'll get him back on the air. Hey, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

All right, Eric, you're back on the air, buddy. All right. I am. OK, so go ahead.

OK, I was going to say, yeah, I hear your points and they make sense, because I've always kind of been we grew up in a church that I would definitely say preach more of a works, like you've got to continue to put effort to stay saved.

But then I've always thought, like, you know, they would also say on the same breath, like God, you know,

Jesus, right? God died for your sin, past, present and future, not that he died for your sins up till the day you accepted them.

And then from there, you've got to be perfect or he's going to not forgive your sins, you know. So, you know, yeah, that's kind of what spurred this on, actually.

Yes. And it's it's a false doctrine to say that we keep our salvation by our goodness, isn't it?

Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, it seems like it has to be. It is. It's a false doctrine.

They don't really understand what they're saying. So here's the thing is that.

Is that how to put this, anyone who teaches that you have to do good or maintain your place with God by your goodness is teaching a false gospel.

That's what Roman Catholicism teaches us, what Mormonism teaches. It's just flat out.

This is that serious. And if I was in a group, there was teaching what I just I'd be very careful how

I said it. But I would make sure they understood that they're teaching something that's not true. And they need to repeat it.

And for those who are out there who believe that you can lose your salvation, you know, ask the question, what do you do to keep it?

What good things do you do to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God? And are you doing? Yeah. And if you take it, yeah, right.

Not yourself in the back. No one's doing it. Perfect. Yeah, right. If you don't mind,

Matt, one one follow up position. This is like on the other hand, where I've always struggled with the like, well, so then like, because back to Judas, right.

So like, you know, obviously, yeah. OK, so if it says he was not a believer and Jesus knew from the beginning, right, which would fit that, you know,

God knowing all things. But like, would Judas have thought he was saved?

You know, so what did Judas think of himself? You know what I'm saying? Like, because that's I guess it's other struggles like, well, maybe.

Well, I get a little bit technical. People ask me a question like that. My answer is,

I don't know what he thought. I can't tell you. It is as simple as that.

And we have to be careful that we don't try and read into certain positions, certain ideas and stuff like that.

Well, I'm sure he thought he this and that. And then we make a doctor out of what you think he thought. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And that's a problem. Yeah. So what I tell people is no, no, no. No, no, no. I don't do that.

Just hold on one second. Just go with what the scriptures teach us. Now, there are logical things we can talk about.

So sin is breaking the law of God, right? It's a legal problem. That's what it says. You know, sin is lawlessness.

First, John three, four. So sin is a legal issue, not only legal, but it's definitely legal quality to it because of the nature of what sin is breaking the law of God.

All right. Now, if that's the case. Well, then it did

Jesus pay the debt of our sin because Colossians two, 14 says he canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was also to us to get out of the way, having nailed to the cross.

So he took it out of the way. He canceled at the cross. I ask people, are your sins, is your sin debt canceled when you believe?

And everybody always says, well, of course it is. Yes, it is. That's when it's canceled. As you know, it's not. It's canceled at the cross.

They say what? And I show them biblical theology. Colossians two, 14.

He canceled the certificate of debt, the chirography, a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness consisting of decrees, which was also to us.

He took it out of the way, having nailed to the cross. When was it removed? When was it canceled at the cross?

Not when you believe this blows people away. And the reason it does is because people are taught all across America and a lot of churches, not all, but a lot of churches are taught humanist philosophy, that the atoning sacrifice of Christ becomes effective when me in my wisdom, when

I, in my smarts and humility, choose to trust in Christ, then the work of God becomes effective.

See how great I am. See what I can do by my faith. See how I activate the work of God, the blood of God upon my soul by what

I do. Excuse me while I look in the mirror and comb my hair and look good. You see, that's what's going on in a lot of churches.

Now, people aren't to that extent, but that's I'm trying to exaggerate. I want people to understand because Jesus came to save the ones given to him by the father.

All that you've given me will come to me. And the ones who come to me, I shall not cast out. I've come down from heaven to do the will of my father.

This is the will of my father, that everyone whom he gives to me, I will raise up. It will, as he says. So he will then he will lose none and raise him up on the last day.

As John six, 37 to 40, Jesus can't lose any. But what's happening in the Christian church today is people are thinking that they keep themselves right with the infinitely holy

God by their goodness, not realizing that they're arrogant in that assumption. And they're arrogant in thinking that by their faith, they're activating what the cross accomplished.

This is heresy and this is what's going on. So the other thing

I'll say is, look, did Jesus pay for your sins? And they say, yes. Okay, is that's a sin, right?

It is. It paid for it. So sin is a legal problem, not only legal, but it's a legal problem. And even Jesus said in Matthew six, 12,

Luke 11, four, you know, our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. He says, forgive us our debts. And then the other one, he says, forgive us our sins.

He relates sin with legal debt. So I asked him, did Jesus pay your sin debt?

Yes. Then did he pay all of it or not all of it? It's only one or the other.

If it's all, then you don't do anything to keep yourself right because Jesus did it all. But if he did not do it all, then you have to do something to keep yourself right with God.

But then you're saying God didn't do it all. So which is it? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Then you're you're having to maintain it through your through your works or your own atonement.

Now, yeah, you see, that's why I've said many times talking to people about this and people say, no,

I, I keep myself right by my faith with God. And I say, could you do me a favor?

I say, could you just like reach around on your shoulder there or just pat yourself on the back?

I just want to, you know, I ask them to do that and then they say, you know, stop mocking me.

I say, no, no, no, you're mocking the cross. You're saying that you activate it by your works and your goodness and your sincerity, your faith.

You need to repent. Yeah. Go on. Yeah, it is a big problem.

Yeah, it is. It is. Well, now I'll let you get back. I'm sure you've got other callers, but I thank you for talking with me.

We don't have any other callers, but but go ahead if you want to stay on. It's not no big deal, but that's OK. Yeah, no,

I appreciate you answering it. I definitely have learned a lot listening to you. And yeah, it's an interesting road out there for sure.

Yes. And it's simple. Just don't take credit for what God does and be humble and trust in that.

God knows what he's doing and that he even grants that you have faith. Flippin's one twenty nine.

Oh, I can go on. Yeah, it's a big one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's true.

Yeah. You know, and a lot of churches I feel like are, you know, I guess I mean, I've been I've probably been to ten different churches, but, you know, it's interesting to see some of the similarities and differences.

But I would say definitely the more legalistic or the more that the church focuses on your having to maintain your salvation, the less true joy there is in the church, because I think the onus of having to, you know, stay right with God is very hard, you know.

So it's like if he just really didn't do it all for you, then it's yeah, it's like going back to the law, basically, you know, and that makes it that makes it really tough.

Yes. You've got it right. And people don't realize that God appoints us to eternal life.

Acts 13, 48, that's what it says. He causes us to be born again.

First Peter one, three. We're born again, not of our own will. John one, twelve and thirteen.

He has elected us from the foundation of the world. Ephesians one, four. He's chosen us from the beginning for salvation.

Second Thessalonians two, thirteen. He grants that we have faith. Philippians one, twenty nine.

The faith that we have is in Christ. That's the work of God. John six, twenty nine. He grants us repentance.

Second Timothy two, twenty five. So I ask people, what part of that do you take credit for?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You can't. Well, that's right. And the problem is, and this is a bold statement,

I think a lot of pastors, not all, but a lot of pastors are completely disqualified, unqualified and don't know they're talking about and are misleading millions or hundreds of thousands with the idea you can lose your salvation.

It's up to you and your goodness to maintain it. What a bondage.

What a bondage. Yeah, yeah. That's that's that's pretty much the common common like theme.

And at least in American Christianity, it is it is. But it seems to be one or the one way or the other now.

But yeah, either you're maintaining your works through your goodness or you're not actually believing in Jesus.

That's right. In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that teaches that you maintain your place with God by by get this.

They they use these words. I'll explain the words. The Eastern Orthodox Church says that you are not justified by faith instantaneously and permanently.

What happens is God disperses his energies through the sacraments, the sacramental participation of God's energies, which is also called his graces, different kinds of graces that are related through the sacraments work upon your soul and that you what you do is you maintain your place with God by your participation in the grace of God through the sacramental system.

You can't know for sure you're saved because to say that would be arrogant, they say, because, well, you have to do good to be saved.

If you're saying you're saved, you're arrogant because you're saying you're good enough. That's what they're they're they're so twisted.

And so you obtain justification through a long process of basically doing what's right.

And that's alive and well in a lot of Protestant churches as well. As well, it's in cults like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses.

It's in cults like the Oneness Pentecostal. It's in the false religion of Roman Catholicism that you attain salvation through faith, baptism and the observance of the commandments.

That's how you attain it. That's paragraph twenty sixty eight of the Catholicism of the Catholic Church. And you maintain your place with God in Roman Catholicism because the grace of God is infused into your soul.

Paragraph nineteen ninety nine. And that your sins less than the grace that's in your soul. So if you die without grace, completely lost, you go to hell.

But if you have some grace infused in your soul, when you die, you go to purgatory.

But if you want all the grace back, you have to go to the priest and he gives you sacraments that you do. And this is how you maintain your position, too, because they also teach you could lose your salvation.

See? Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah, it opens up way too much, way too much variance in God's grace.

Now you have partial grace and half grace. And then, yeah, because I mean, I would always go back to the thief on the cross.

Right. I mean, he just said, I believe in you. Basically, God said, hey, today I'll see you in heaven.

Right. So, I mean, at the end of the day, it was as simple as faith. Not because he didn't even have time to do any works.

Yeah. And in fact, if you were to call back tomorrow, I can go through it a lot more detail, what justification by faith is and how it's obtained, what it is, how it's maintained everything.

But there's the music. We've got to go. We're out of time. All right. Yep. Thanks, Matt. Excellent question. Good question,

Matt. OK. Hey, folks, I'm glad that you were here listening. And by his grace, we'll be back on the air tomorrow.

May the Lord bless you this evening. And hopefully we'll talk to you then. So have a great evening, everyone. God bless.