Yes, Perry, Hebrew Has Multiple Words that Mean "Command"; and more.

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:03

Well, Merry Christmas, Eve, how's everybody feeling?

00:35

All over the state. Hey, let me kind of get into this really quick, because I know that many of you have so many family members that you want to go hang out with.

00:46

Actually, that's not true. I've had staff members saying, can we please do more services? So I don't, anyway, we've had a great several nights of services.

00:57

We've got a video, and it's Jamie and Elizabeth Salmon's story, and it's going to be posted online, and it's amazing.

01:03

Many of you have actually been, you've seen it, it's unbelievable. But we're not going to show that tonight, because last night, it was really weird.

01:09

I know some of you don't think stuff like this happens, and maybe it don't, but I think it did. Last night,

01:15

I'm sitting backstage, and the Lord started speaking in my heart, going, I've got a message I want you to preach tomorrow. And I don't know if you've ever did this, but I told

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God, well, I've already got something planned tomorrow. Isn't it inconvenient when the creator of the universe wants to interrupt our plans?

01:31

And I was like, I've got something planned tomorrow, and so thank you very much for participating. You ought to watch it, guys. It's a great video.

01:36

It's all about you. And finally, I left, and I said, well, if it's there, that feeling is there, when

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I get up in the morning, I'll preach the message. And I got up this morning, it was there. And God was like,

01:51

I'm not backing off on this one. You're going to preach the message. And I was like, well, I'm not sure

01:56

I need to do that. Let me text some people and have them pray for me, and maybe they'll just tell me. Because normally, when

02:02

I have a crazy idea, I've got some really good friends that'll text me and go, I love you, that's stupid, don't do it. And I texted all of the leadership team and our campus pastors, and they were like, you got to do it, you got to do it, you got to do it.

02:15

And normally, they're like, I don't know, maybe we should think about this and pray about this, but they're like, you got to do it, you got to do it, you got to do it.

02:21

And so I was like, all right. So I told them I was going to do it, and then I wrote this message in 10 minutes. So if you're here tonight, and this is your first time at New Spring, and you hate it, please come back.

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I'm just going to say that right front, and our staff, I'm going to go ahead and apologize, none of this is their fault. But it's something that I really do feel like God laid on my heart.

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And I feel like it's for somebody. I feel like it's for somebody tonight. And I'm really, really encouraged about getting to preach this message.

02:48

So it all starts with the word, yes. No, not really.

02:56

Welcome to the dividing line. I wasn't going to talk about this.

03:03

I wasn't, I'll just be honest with you. I've seen a few clips in the past of this fellow named

03:11

Perry Noble. And I apologize, but I, you can't always tell.

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I mean, this is obviously a big place. I mean, it's quite the interesting stage they've got going on there.

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But he's normally dressed like this, jean jacket and a hoodie and stuff like that.

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And I've seen clips of him going off on stuff.

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And I'll be perfectly honest with you. I just assumed he was some kind of emergent church dude somewhere.

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And I just didn't really concern myself too much about the guy, figuring that, well, you go to an emergent church, you get emergent stuff.

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And so when I heard about this sermon from Christmas Eve, I'm sort of like, well, what do you expect?

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You know, we're going to hear him say, you know, the big thing was

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Perry Noble rewrites 10 Commandments, says there is no word for command or commandment in the

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Hebrew language. I sit there and go, what happened to mitzvah and peh?

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And we're going to look at a number of them here a little bit later on. There's a whole semantic range.

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There's a whole number of terms that create a semantic range that can mean commandment.

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If you know anything about Hebrew, you know there's such thing as Hebrew parallelism and you repeat terms. And we'll get into all that.

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And as soon as I heard it, I said, okay, he discovered what most of us learn in Bible college.

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And that is that at one point, the 10 Commandments are identified as the 10 sayings.

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And so he's probably run off with that. And, you know, but I honestly didn't give it a lot of thought and given all the things

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I'm behind on stuff and there's stuff I've started and haven't finished and all these things

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I thought, well, it's, I don't know, that maybe a quick two minute display of, you know, you click on something in accordance and poof, there it is.

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Then, excuse me, Lane on Twitter says, please address this because I've got a bunch of friends who have been influenced by this.

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And I'm like, really? And I said, there are people who actually listen to what this guy says.

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And somebody, I forget who, came back and said, yeah, he's pastoring the largest

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Southern Baptist church in the world. And I'm like, that's a

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Southern Baptist church? I didn't know, but they gave a link and I followed it.

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And here's this list. Lo and behold, the one over there in California, what's his face?

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Rick Warren is like fourth on this list. I thought that was the biggest one. I don't keep up with these things.

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And so, oh, hi, Nick. Nick, see, see, Nick. I did remember it's too cold in here just for a t -shirt.

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It's, once the spring comes, which is scheduled for February here in Arizona. Anyway, I looked down this list and I went to a

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Southern Baptist megachurch for 11 years. And well, no, no, no, no, not really.

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Because churches were different back then. That church was in the top 10 easily back then.

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Now it's number 252 on that list. It's still on the list, but it's at 252.

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This place reports like over 27 ,000 people in attendance on a Sunday.

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Now you'd have to dig to find out it's a Southern Baptist church. In fact, it was fascinating looking down the list of Southern Baptist churches, how very few of them have the name

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Baptist anywhere on their name, very few. I mean, Second Baptist, the ones down deep in the heart of Texas, okay.

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They can get away with it. But for the vast majority of these churches and certainly this place,

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Baptist, really? Didn't know. So I go, wow.

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So the pastor, the main pastor of a church has 27 ,000 people showing up on a

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Sunday. Decided that there's no word for command and commandment in Hebrew.

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And so he rewrote the 10 commandments as promises. Really? And then

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I started seeing some more, finally had to download it. And so you have a sermon written based upon an impression, not the study of the word of God, based upon an impression, a feeling that this fellow gets and he writes it in 10 minutes.

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Now, how much of that 10 minutes do you think was spent?

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Maybe, I mean, something tells me a church this size could provide him with everything that Accordance and Logos, or if he's a

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PC guy, Logos, and well, they all do PC now. If he's got Bible works or Logos or Accordance, Olive Tree, whatever.

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You think maybe he could have opened it up and put in commandment in the search thing and hit click and wow.

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And all you gotta do is put your cursor on words and up pops all this information.

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And you might not be able to read the Hebrew or the Greek, but there's English definitions given. You got these squiggly things and then command, commandment, ordinance, judgment.

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Doesn't look like that crossed his mind to do that for some strange reason.

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Obviously I have a real problem in standing up in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people are there this evening.

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It wouldn't be the whole group. I'm sure they have, I doubt this place seats 27 ,000 people and maybe it's multiple campuses.

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Maybe that's how they get to 27 ,000. I don't know. I go to a church with what?

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About 60 members. So this is just, it's just different world. I don't even, I actually know everybody in my church.

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I've actually met them. And of course it started off with this,

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I couldn't tell if I was watching a Broadway show or just what, but whatever. Not getting into that right now.

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And it wasn't a Sunday morning service, thankfully, but it was a Christmas Eve service. And so here we've got a man claiming that God told him to preach this.

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And yet there is absolutely fundamental error in what is said.

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Well, so he does this on the basis of, he's got these feelings, these emotions.

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Okay, all right. So what's the big deal about this sermon? Well, by the end of the sermon, he's gonna be on his knees, begging people to say yes to Jesus.

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And for a lot of people in our day, that's all you gotta do. As long as you end begging people to say yes to Jesus, that must mean that God told him to do this.

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That's enough. And anybody would criticize him. Oh my. You can't do that.

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You, as long as you're using the name Jesus, isn't that enough?

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The problem is having listened to the sermon, I don't know what he's asking them to say yes to.

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There wasn't, there was no clear gospel presentation given.

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And so what are you saying yes to? I'm saying yes to happiness. I'm saying yes to a fulfilled life.

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I'm saying yes to modern psychology. You're not saying yes to the gospel.

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And we wonder why it is that we have all these churches filled with people that when you bring the word of God to bear, they rebel.

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It's because we fill our churches with unregenerate people. Big numbers, but that's not the church.

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That's not a John six paradigm by any stretch of the imagination.

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Well, so what was the big thing here? Well, let's, let's move forward here to right about here.

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So, there. Here's the big thing.

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Ready? Here we go. Here, I was in Israel and I was hanging out with my friend,

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R .E .A. Now, if you're been around new spring for a while, you've heard me talk about R .E .A. R .E .A.

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to me is like Mr. Miyagi to the Karate Kid. All right, he is my, I mean, he, I just love this man and he's full of wisdom.

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He loves Jesus. He's 67 years old. He's fought in wars. He's built things.

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He's a musician. He's just an amazing man of God. And he's teaching me the Bible. I'm trying to spend as much time with him as possible.

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And he's teaching me the Bible. And so we were riding down the road one day and he can't drive. It's the only thing he can't do.

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He can do everything else in the world. But if you ride in a car with R .E .A., you're gonna get close to Jesus because you're either going 20 or 90.

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And that is not an exaggeration. So, but we're having a conversation. And so at least if I die, I go to heaven with R .E

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.A. And I think that gets me in a little bit sooner. I'm not sure. And we're talking about Hebrew, the language

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Hebrew. Now, I don't speak Hebrew and I'm sure many people here don't speak Hebrew either. But R .E

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.A. looks at me and he kind of smiles and he said, do you know in the Hebrew there is no word for command? I was like, actually,

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I didn't know that. I don't even, I don't know where that came from. I mean, we're just riding down the road here in Israel and you just decided to share that with me.

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And obviously, so I got out my little phone and I'm taking notes because there is no word for command. And he was baiting me.

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He was baiting me. And I sat there and thought for a minute. I said, well then R .E .A., what do you do with the 10 commandments?

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Because like you're a Jewish person and you believe the old, I mean, what do you do with the 10 commandments?

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And he looks at me and he goes, they're not the 10 commandments, Perry. This is weird because I've been around the 10 commandments all my life.

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But in the original Hebrew language, there's no word for command. So it couldn't have been the 10 commandments.

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He said, it's best translated as these are the 10 sayings of God.

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Then he said this. You could also interpret it as the 10 promises of God.

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Instead of 10 commandments that you have to keep, if you're going to be a follower of Jesus, there are actually 10 promises that you can receive when you say yes to Jesus.

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And so what I wanna do tonight is I just wanna go through each one of them very quickly. I'll have you out by Christmas day.

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And I want us to see why I am trying my best to convince you to say yes to Jesus because of these 10 promises.

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Okay, so we have the 10 promises and then he goes through.

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And of course, he makes the 10 promises and then he makes up applications that you can make for each of the 10 commandments.

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And then on the basis of this, which evidently no one in Christian history has ever been as smart as Aryeh over in Israel, asks you to say yes to Jesus.

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And that's what you've got going on. And well, let's talk a little bit here.

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And to be honest with you, one of the reasons I really didn't think about addressing this was because it just seems so simplistically false that anybody would be able to just automatically go, you know, what's the chance that Perry Noble, and I don't remember seeing

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Perry Noble write too many books of scholarship and stuff. What's the chance that Perry Noble has discovered something that every

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Bible translator, including conservative Bible -believing godly men who translate

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ESV and NASB and NIV and all the way back to the

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King James and New King James. And what's the chance that that one guy who's the pastor at a mega church has discovered something that all these other people were just too daft to get.

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And the chance would be pretty small, pretty small. And you don't even have to own the high -end

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Bible software to be able to go, wow, look at that.

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You know, I can go online to Bible Gateway and stuff like that. And I can put in the word command.

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And by the way, command and commandment, well, you can have a command that is a substantive.

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Commandment, pretty much the same thing. Or command obviously can be a verb.

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I command you to do X, Y, and Z. He doesn't differentiate between these and it would help to differentiate between these things.

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But it just wouldn't be all that difficult to debunk this.

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So shouldn't I spend my time on more difficult things? But I guess because he has the position that he has, there are people who go, well, he pastors a church with almost 30 ,000 people showing up on Sunday.

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That's gotta say something. I'm not sure what it says. I'm not really not sure what it says.

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But let's look. Let's look at Deuteronomy chapter five, because we're talking about the 10 commandments.

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Let's look at Deuteronomy chapter five. And you'll notice in the

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ESV, we have, and Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, here are Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today.

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And you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did

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Yahweh make this covenant, but with us, for all of us here alive today. Yahweh spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, while I stood between Yahweh and you at the time to declare to you the word of Yahweh.

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For you were afraid because of the fire and you did not go up into the mountain. He said, I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

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You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or is on the earth beneath.

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So here's the beginning of the 10 commandments. So we go back and how does Moses describe these?

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I'm gonna switch over to the NASB real quick here. Boop. And everybody keeps asking me, what software is this?

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This is Accordance. It's my regular one. You'll also see me using Logos. I have both here.

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And mainly for biblical stuff, I use Accordance. And for library materials, reference materials, so on and so forth,

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I use Logos. And I do not mispronounce Logos like guys at Logos do.

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Anyway, here over Israel, the statutes, okay?

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The statutes and the ordinances. So here's the first term and here it is. And I'm gonna change my screen a little bit here.

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And then I'm going to, there we go. All right, there we go.

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And now we can see a little bit here, easier. The chukkim, the chukkim, plural of chuk, which means statute.

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Now, the next one, the ordinances is mishpat, the mishpatim.

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There is also another term, peh, which we could bring in here. But let's understand some basic things about language.

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One of the most revolutionary books, I should have brought it in here. It might be in here now that I think about it. Uh, no, no, it's not.

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I'll have to grab it sometime and show it to you. The one I've got is really old. And the name has changed too.

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It's Moises Silva's work on lexical semantics. We were, if you grew up in my time period, or even after that, in the

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West, we tend to be taught that you look up, you get out the dictionary and you look up a word and here are its meanings.

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The reality is that any word, Hebrew, Greek, has what's called a semantic domain.

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It is the range of meanings that, well, really, we have identified in the use of that word at a particular time period.

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In other words, especially when you're looking at the language, and this is where sometimes

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English speakers struggle a little bit, English is a relatively new language. And if you've ever tried to read

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Old English or Middle English, you've seen where certain words have actually, their semantic domain, the range of words, the range of meaning that that word could carry at a given time has changed over time.

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Let, suffer, things like this, we see that the range of meanings that that word can have can change over the course of time.

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So, for example, one of the major areas of study that we have in New Testament studies is when we look at words that are being quoted from the

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Greek Septuagint, there's two centuries there. Is there evidence that there has been any shift in the semantic domain for this particular term as it comes into the

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New Testament? Or, even if there has been, is the writer still using the older meaning?

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That's just one of the examples that you could use. For example, the term logos. We were just talking about the software, so we'll use logos as an example.

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Logos, a Greek term in the first century, has a very wide semantic domain.

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Very wide. It can mean matter, thing, word, utterance. There's a wide semantic domain.

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Well, if you have a term that has a large semantic domain, why would you choose to use that in a sentence?

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Why not use a term that would have a much narrower range and give you more specificity?

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Well, there's a lot of different reasons for that. Sometimes, I wrote a lengthy response to somebody last night and I was using the same concept a couple times in the same sentence, and so I used synonyms.

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Because if you use the same word over and over again, and so you might choose to use a synonym.

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And the more specific term, therefore, delineates and limits what you mean in the larger semantic domain of the later term that you use.

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For example, the point is that context, the context determines where in the semantic domain you are focusing your intended meaning.

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And so when John uses logos in John 1 .1, well, that's one of the things we talk about.

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What is he referring to? When the logos becomes flesh, what's he drawing from?

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Is he drawing from Greek philosophy? The rational ordering principle of the world?

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Is he drawing from Devar and Memra in terms in the Hebrew from the

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Old Testament or the intertestamental period? These are all things that scholars discuss and are important to handling the word of God aright.

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So when we keep in mind that there is a range of meaning, then the author, by the context, which begins with the immediate words, it begins with the clause in which the word is found, sentence, and then paragraph, and the flow of the thought in the book, and all these things are relevant to the context of a particular passage.

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And so when we look at Deuteronomy chapter five, whatever the 10 sayings are, they are identified as statutes and ordinances.

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And when we look over, we can see here, I have a couple of these up.

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For example, here we have one of the words in Hebrew that is used to give an order, command.

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So this is halo, the halo lexicon. It is one of the standard lexicons available today.

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That screen alone is sufficient to demonstrate that in all probability, let's not blame

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Arii, whoever he is, for this. Let's blame the man who can't read

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Hebrew, and yet has the audacity to stand in front of people and tell them things like this.

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In all probability, Pastor Noble just didn't understand what he was saying. I mean, maybe the guy is a heretic,

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Arii, I don't know. I don't personally, I liked

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Mr. Miyagi, but I wouldn't take my theology from him. So who knows?

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But this would be enough right there to demonstrate that this claim is untrue.

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But the point is there are a number, if we were to draw, this is frequently found in the various books.

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If we were to draw a circle representing a semantic domain, if we were to put the term command as a substantive command or commandment right here, there would probably be at least four or five different terms that when you drew the circle of their meaning, they would intersect around this term.

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And when you see a sentence utilizing more than one term, as you do here, where you have statutes and ordinances, the

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Mishpatim, the ordinances, you see what we see elsewhere, if you've ever especially preached through, read through, translated through the 119th

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Psalm, Psalm 119, the largest Psalm in the Psalter. In that acrostic poem, you have pretty much,

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I didn't check it out, but I think I'm on pretty safe ground to assume that pretty much every term that would intersect around that meaning of command, commandment, ordinance, judgments, they're all used there.

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Because if you know what the 119th Psalm is, it's an acrostic poem. And I think there's only one verse that does not use one of the cadre, the group of terms that can refer to the word of God, the commandments of God, the judgments of God, so on and so forth.

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And so when you use multiple terms like this, especially

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Hebrew does this more than Greek does, but you are filling out by the use of two different terms, you're filling out the meaning.

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And you're doing so by saying they intersect here. It's like filling it out, coloring it in.

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This is a very, very common mechanism in the

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Hebrew language. And so what you have in Deuteronomy 5 is the clear identification of the 10 commandments as commandments, ordinances, judgments.

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They all have the same meaning. When you look at Mishpat or in its root right here, reliable judgment, true judgment, true justice, judgment makes for peace, satisfactory judgment, to make a judgment about, a verdict about, there's all these different possibilities that we can use here.

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But then when you put that together with a term that refers to ordinance or something like that, then you start narrowing the semantic domain of the term you're looking at down so we have a good idea of what's being said.

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So the point is that despite whatever Mr. Miyagi said, any surface level examination and any in -depth examination of the lexical sources, whether it be

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Brown Driver, Briggs, Halo, Baumgartner, whatever, whatever sources we wanna grab and pull up here.

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Yeah, there's my holiday over there that I used when I took Hebrew many, many, many moons ago.

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I don't think I have a BDB in here right now. It's a big, huge thing anyways, but you can see the green and yellow one next to Jonathan Edwards there, the holiday.

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But again, with programs like Accordance and Logon, stuff like that, you can just pull this stuff up.

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You'll notice I've got, let's see how many Hebrew tools.

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I've got BDB, Biblical MMA, TLOT, TWOT, Theological Oral Testament, Hebrew Strong Dictionary, Key Dictionary, NAS, Hebrew Dictionary, Halo, BHS Verger book and the

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Kohlenberger Mounts Hebrew is what I have in Accordance right now. All of these will tell you the same thing, that either

32:49

Perry Noble misunderstood his driver. Maybe he was doing 90 miles an hour and things tend to be garbled at that point when you're scared or going around a corner or whatever.

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Or Mr. Miyagi, REI, whatever is just clueless. But whatever it is, the entire basis of pretending to rewrite the 10 commandments as the 10 promises to try to get people to say yes to Jesus.

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Yes to what? Yes to his Lordship? Yes in the sense of confessing your own sins, turning in repentance and turning away from those sins.

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How do you know what those sins are? Pastor Noble? Oh, that's the function of the law.

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Oh, but the law has commandments and the commandment kills, why?

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Because, oh, you see the problem here? So when we just take this apart and look at it, we're left going, wow.

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And did he tell his other staff members this? Did he tell them, well, you know,

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I'm gonna tell folks that there is no Hebrew word for command or commandment.

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Isn't there anybody on the staff that would have gone, you know, maybe just pull out your iPhone, your

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Droid and go, yeah,

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I guess not. You know, I am gonna tell a story before we move on.

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Watching someone in their hoodie and jean jacket just reminds me, like I said,

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I went to a, for 11 years, I was a member and in fact was on staff, paid staff at a

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Southern Baptist megachurch, the North Phoenix Baptist Church, Central Avenue and Bethany Home Road, Phoenix, Arizona.

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Still there, still a big church, 252 on the list rather than top 10.

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It's not nearly as big as it used to be. But it was a big place.

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And so we would have some interesting concerts there. I remember

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Brush Arbor, were you ever there at Brush Arbor? They were so good, they don't exist anymore, it's a shame. But I enjoyed Brush Arbor, they were good.

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They did their music for the right reasons. They were Christian artists that wanted to, you know.

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I still listen to some Brush Arbor from long ago. I love the little pops and hisses in it.

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Recorded off the old LP, made of vinyl. As when I first, when

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Summer first saw the word vinyl, she pronounced it vinyl, because how was she supposed to know?

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Anyway, one of the groups that came in for a concert were the

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Imperials. Now the Imperials, I think they're still out there somewhere.

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I don't know, but I think they are. But back in the 80s, they were big, they were huge.

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They were about as big as you get in contemporary Christian music. And I ran sound at the

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North Phoenix Baptist Church for, I don't know, a little over a year as a volunteer. Man, that was a, that was an incredible volunteer position.

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Let me tell you something. You'd sometimes get there at six o 'clock in the morning and leave at 10 o 'clock at night on Sundays.

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That was, yeah, anyway. And the

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Imperials were big. And so they had a lot of equipment to bring in.

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And I had to be there to help interface between their equipment and our sound system and stuff.

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And so I remember I was up in the sound booth, because remember the sound booth was up in the middle of the balcony.

37:09

So it was well -placed. The place is well -designed. There's no question about that. It's a beautiful building. When I was there, we claimed a good seat 5 ,200.

37:17

And then when the new pastor came after I left, he said, you can't put more than 4 ,300 people in here.

37:23

So I measured it. He said, whatever. Big place.

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And you can actually see it. There are YouTube videos of like, there's a

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Steve Green concert that was there. They'll show the whole thing. Anyway, I'm up in the sound booth and I see this thing happen.

37:47

The Imperials got roadies. I mean, the Imperials don't set up their own sound systems. Back when

37:53

I was at the singing group from North Phoenix called Liberation, we set up our own stuff, but they were big stars.

38:00

So they had roadies. And so they've got a truck outside and they're bringing all this stuff in and hooking it up.

38:10

Well, one of the roadies is bringing in, you know, probably a speaker cables or microphones or something.

38:19

I don't know, whatever. And he's wearing a hat. And in walks

38:27

Dr. Richard Jackson, the pastor of the North Phoenix Baptist Church.

38:35

Now, I don't know what Pastor Jackson's up to these days. And I don't know what he thinks about what's happened to the

38:41

Southern Baptist Convention. But back then, he took what happened in that worship center very seriously, very seriously.

38:55

And he was not into, well, what we see and what we saw.

39:05

And I saw him walk in and see this guy and I'm up in the sound booth and I know what's coming.

39:12

And he heads straight for him. He intercepts this guy and he looks at us and says, what are you doing?

39:22

And the guy's like, uh, uh. And he says, you are in a place of worship.

39:30

Take your hat off. And the guy's like, yes, sir, yes. You know, it was the first time in that guy's life that he had ever had anybody say that to him.

39:43

And it wasn't during a service. There wasn't anybody in there. But completely different way of viewing what happened in that place than what you have today.

39:57

Just completely different view, completely different view. And I, for one, appreciate it.

40:04

Appreciate the man for doing that. But it's changed. It's changed a lot.

40:10

So, if just looking at this brief material and a discussion of semantic domains and the fact that there are a number of words that are properly and contextually translated as command, verbal form, command, noun form, substantive, commandment, and that the 10 sayings are specifically identified as statutes and ordinances, which the

40:38

Lord commands his people to keep. Peh is a term that's used over and over again for that. If that's helpful to you,

40:46

I hope at least, at least Lane needed the help. And Lane needs a lot of help. So, we just, we wanted to help

40:52

Lane out. Lane's getting really old. He's married to a very young woman. So, we want to help him as best we can.

41:06

Anyway, so let's shift gears here. I was directed,

41:14

I guess. Excuse me. I'm getting this really annoying little tickle thing.

41:27

And there's, I cough and it doesn't do anything. So, it's just annoying. I was directed,

41:32

I think, on Facebook, and you're probably going to have to resize your window.

41:41

Oops, I was accidentally resizing it myself there. Okay, that's, you got it there?

41:54

Good, thank you. I was directed to this video. Was it last night?

42:01

I think it was last night. In a Facebook comment, and I sort of rebuked the guy because he hijacked the thread.

42:13

And so, here I am talking about something, someone who hijacked a thread. So, that's probably only going to encourage other people to hijack threads.

42:19

I don't like hijacked threads, but I did it anyways. And so,

42:27

I clicked on this thing, and the guy said, I'd love to hear a response to this. Everybody wants me to respond to everything.

42:33

Well, this one's specifically about me. Notice the pipe in the background there. That means he's cool.

42:42

This is a lay apologist, a lay Catholic apologist, and I'm looking for the last tweet that I sent to him.

42:59

Devin Rose, Devin S. Rose is his, I'm sorry?

43:08

The tweet short one? Yeah, well, let's see, this is about four hours ago or so.

43:15

And then I responded to him. But, you know, it's been a while since we've had a debate.

43:26

It's been a while since we had a debate with a Roman Catholic. And unless I'm forgetting something, which is quite probable.

43:37

With the last debate I did with a Roman Catholic, with the attorney?

43:46

That was after the debates in Santa Fe with St. Genes? Okay. Possibly with the attorney, what was his name,

44:00

Chris something? Name's skipping me at the moment.

44:10

But haven't done nearly as many as we had been doing, obviously, in the 90s. Or even at certain stretches after the turn of the century.

44:20

That sounds so strange. Anyway, obviously my focus has been elsewhere.

44:27

And I know recently. Christopher Ferraro. Yeah, Chris, Christopher Ferraro.

44:35

Is that the last one on Roman Catholicism? I could just look at the website because we've got the debate list up.

44:49

It's fairly up to date. So it's been a while. A lot of the people that we used to debate regularly either aren't debating anymore or prefer to debate other people.

45:07

I mean, if Tim Staples called up and said, let's debate, you know, he just put out a book on the

45:14

Marian doctrines and I've purchased it. It's sort of a, well, you know, if you get around to it type thing, but it'll be worthwhile reviewing stuff like that.

45:26

Turretinfan just did a debate on, what was it, Immaculate Conception?

45:32

I believe it was Immaculate Conception just a few weeks ago. What? Okay, so the

45:37

Ferrari debate was August 28th, 2010. You're right. The St. Genes debates took place September 10th.

45:45

So it was afterwards. Two weeks later. And that was it? Yeah. Almost five years, over four years.

45:53

Yeah, that's the last time I see it. Yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought.

46:00

Well, it's been a while and we are hoping to have a debate later in the year given the papal trip to Philadelphia.

46:19

So we will be looking at that. Well, anyways, Devin Rose is a lay

46:27

Catholic apologist and evidently put a book out last year. I hadn't heard about it. Well, sorry,

46:35

Brigham, I can't stop to really do anything about my cough today. I apologize. I need to get it cleared up because I'm gonna have all of 30 seconds between finishing up here.

46:47

Well, I'll have about six minutes between here. And I do want to mention this, going directly onto the line of fire with Michael Brown.

46:57

And we're gonna be talking about the transmission of the text in New Testament, specifically the manuscripts of the

47:03

New Testament. So if you're interested in that, look up line of fire and be ready to fire that up.

47:12

Someone, some bright person on Twitter said, so could we call this the dividing line of fire? Which given they're back to back, that's exactly what

47:22

I did, rim shot. So that was actually pretty, pretty, pretty sharp.

47:28

I liked that. Yeah, you know what? The purgatory debate with Tim Staples was after that on the dividing line.

47:40

Yeah, no, no, that was, it was, it was a formal debate. It was, I had a thesis, even equal amounts of time.

47:46

It was over an hour in length. It actually fits. So, and we know how happy Catholic Answers was about that.

47:55

Someone told me that that's no longer available on their website. It is gone.

48:03

Really? Interesting. Interesting. Very, very, very interesting.

48:10

So anyways, let's get back to our, our lay Catholic apologist here. Put out, puts out a book in 2014 and seems to be very, very confident of his argumentation.

48:25

Now, let's see if you can identify how many, how many logical errors can you identify?

48:34

This thing's only two minutes and 54 seconds long. Okay. Let's, let's listen.

48:39

I'm going to give some free advertisement here. This is something he never thought he would probably be able to get, but let's look at this advertisement for, and notice the title,

48:51

The Protestant's Dilemma Destroys James White's Scripture Alone. Now, if you're going to write as a

48:57

Catholic, you're going to respond to what I've said on Roman Catholicism. The book's called

49:02

The Roman Catholic Controversy. This book is, is really,

49:18

I mean, just, just the topics that we're, that we're looking at here. The nature of God's word, inerrancy.

49:30

Did Thomas write a gospel? The Gnostic Gospels. Okay. I'll admit there is actually some relevance to talking about the

49:38

Gnostic Gospels and Roman Catholicism, Devin. I will admit that. Because your church was dependent upon certain

49:46

Gnostic sources for some of the weird Marian dogmas you came up with. So maybe we can talk about the

49:53

Protevangelium of James and stuff like that. But I deal with allegations of corruption, allegations of contradiction.

50:03

I deal with the charismatic movement. I talk about some of the historical reality.

50:12

And then chapter nine, Tradition, the Church, and the Development of Doctrine. That's the primary thing. This isn't specifically about Roman Catholicism.

50:21

I deal with it, but I dealt with a bunch of different things. This is a positive, reformed presentation of the sufficiency of scripture.

50:29

If you're gonna go after what I've said on Roman Catholicism, here's the book that you need to be putting bumper stickers on, as you're gonna all see here in a moment.

50:40

This one here. Not that one. This one isn't even intended to be that.

50:45

So it's a little weird why he decided to do what he decided to do.

50:51

But again, we gotta give him props. He is confident. So let's take a look at The Protestant's Dilemma Destroys James Weiss.

51:00

Oh, by the way, just for a background thing, scripture alone, 2004, 2004.

51:10

His book, 2014. 10 -year difference, okay?

51:17

Decade difference. Keep that in mind. Let's listen in. Devon Rose here, everyone.

51:24

Been a long time since my last video, but I'm back to action. About 10 months ago, my new book came out,

51:32

The Protestant's Dilemma. It has since had over 105 reviews on Amazon.

51:38

4 .5 stars or so. Some people have hated it. Most have loved it. So The Protestant's Dilemma is the

51:46

Catholic Answers new version of If Protestantism is True. And the book has about 34 arguments for the

51:55

Catholic faith and shows why Protestantism is true. Protestantism has problems, flaws, in the logical reasoning that makes it implausible.

52:05

So we talk about the canon of scripture, the books that make up the Bible, ecumenical councils, the papacy, the sacraments, infant baptism, anointing of the sick.

52:16

Why the Catholic church's beliefs on these doctrines are all supported by reason, but Protestantism are not, right?

52:25

So the Catholic faith has support in scripture, tradition, and reason. And with the

52:31

Protestant tradition, you don't have that support. So I'd like to just say too, some people think, oh, you don't really know what

52:38

Protestantism is or whatnot. Here's a book by James White.

52:44

It's called Scripture Alone, but you have trouble reading it because I put a bumper sticker that Pat Vanderpool made that says anti -Catholicism is a tradition of men over it.

52:55

James White's a prominent anti -Catholic Baptist blogger. And the interesting thing about this is this book answers none of the arguments in mind.

53:08

So James White manages to evade arguments. He makes the case for Protestantism by very carefully avoiding all of those big errors and holes in it.

53:21

Now, I just gotta stop for a second. Yeah, I, guilty,

53:29

I'm guilty. I evaded all the arguments of the Protestant dilemma that was written 10 years after my book.

53:42

When he tried to explain this on his blog this morning, he was saying, well,

53:53

Francis DeSales and others refuted everything you said in that book 400 years earlier.

53:58

Well, that's not what he said, is it? And of course I disagree, but remember the book he's holding up isn't primarily about Roman Catholicism.

54:09

So he stuck a bumper sticker on a book that deals with inerrancy,

54:14

Gnostic gospels, all sorts of stuff like that, and identifies it as anti -Catholicism, first of all.

54:22

And then secondly, and remember, who am I? I am an anti -Catholic

54:27

Baptist blogger. That's what I am. I'm not an elder in the church. I'm not,

54:33

I haven't taught, I haven't been teaching on the undergraduate and graduate level since 1995. I haven't written 25, 24 books.

54:45

I haven't done debates with atheists and Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims in mosques around the world.

54:55

No, no, no, no, no. You can always tell a zealot. You can always tell somebody who has a very narrow focus.

55:03

They're only looking through a little slit in the trench right here. You can always tell someone when they define you by their religion.

55:12

And so I'm an anti -Catholic Baptist blogger, which if we're gonna be consistent, means that he is an anti -Protestant

55:24

Roman Catholic blogger. Congratulations, there you go. But it's just amazing.

55:34

He avoided all my arguments. I wrote it 10 years before him and I avoided all my arguments and he's like, okay.

55:41

I have a feeling, I'm gonna have to get the book.

55:47

But I'll record it and I'll listen to it. I have a feeling, because I've read DeSales.

55:54

I mean, yeah, this isn't the primary thing I'm focused upon right now, but I spent a lot of time reading a lot of Roman Catholic theology,

56:02

Yves Congar and all the rest of this kind of stuff. I have the hunch that there isn't anything in the

56:09

Protestant dilemma that I haven't addressed over and over again, just on the Wayback Machine.

56:16

I'll bet you just, if you just listen to the Wayback Machine, just to the dividing line, I'll bet you there's nothing in there that I haven't addressed already.

56:24

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, but I can guarantee you one thing, if I get the book, well, first of all,

56:29

I get in Kindle, so I wouldn't be able to stick a bumper sticker on anyways, but if I did get the paper version,

56:37

I wouldn't stick a bumper sticker on it. Right, so he can't face those. Don't want to back up, he has a quote from Mark.

56:44

Now, by the way, I can't face those. I've debated, the list is long of the people that I have debated.

56:52

This guy's got to be thinking, I'm better than all of them. I'm better than Madrid. I'm better than Staples.

56:58

I'm better than Matitix. I'm better than St. Genes. I'm better than Pacwa. The list is pretty long, and this guy must be better than all of them.

57:09

Confident fella, confident fella. Luther, right? So he's got a quote from Luther, but why it's not a

57:17

Lutheran, nor does he believe in Lutheran doctrines, nor does he believe in doctrines that Martin Luther believed in.

57:27

Wow, that's shocking. Rich, did you know I'm not a Lutheran?

57:34

Just now found out, okay. Is that Michael Brown Kong? Probably is. I'm not a

57:40

Lutheran, folks. That means I can't quote Martin Luther, even if the quote happens to be relevant to something that we're both saying, that we both agree on.

57:51

So I couldn't quote Martin Luther saying that the Pope's the Antichrist, for example. Couldn't do that.

57:59

And he tried to get around that one too by changing the argument on his blog, which

58:04

I found very, very interesting. Well, anyways, we're out of time.

58:09

I was gonna play the rest of it, but sorry, Devin. By the way, just a real quick, search DeSales on our website sometime.

58:16

Oh, okay. See all of what pops up. Oh, there is a bunch of stuff? Search engine is at the bottom, and I've got at least four on the first page.

58:23

All kinds of fun DeSales stuff. Yeah, yeah, we have discussed it, but Devin Rose, he's got us, man.

58:32

He's got us. I'm not a Lutheran. Dun, dun, dun, dun. All right, well, anyways,

58:39

I'm gonna take a few seconds here to rest my voice, and we're gonna get ready to go on the line of fire.

58:45

So if you want more, we're gonna be continuing in just a few minutes, but not on this feed.

58:52

So we'll be back again, Lord willing, on Thursday at some time.