Matt Slick Live Predestination and Election show clip

So let's get to Jason from Arizona. Jason, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, I appreciate you.

You've been helping me grow in my reformed faith, answering all kinds of questions that I have.

I have so many questions. But today I wanted to ask you about Romans 9, 13, where God hated

Esau and your take on, I know like Arminians and most Christians soften that blow and they'll try to say, oh, he just loves him just a teeny weeny bit less than he loves the elect and so forth, ignoring the vessels of wrath and destruction and so forth.

But can you give me your take on the reprobation of Esau and God's hatred towards Pharaoh and the unelected?

Wow. Wow. So what you're asking for is those are fighting words for a lot of people.

So what I'm going to do is just give the best answer that I understand. And people, in my opinion, generally speaking, don't understand the deeper things of God's revelation to us.

Now, when I say that, I'm not saying, hey, you have to be smart like me and learn what I know. And I have all the secrets.

I'm not saying that the Bible does teach election. It's clear that it does. But so many people just reject it.

It does teach predestination. And so many people reject it. And the reason I believe they do is because they've been introduced to the blonde haired, blue eyed

Caucasian surfer Jesus. And so it's not a true representation.

And I remember when I first started learning about this stuff, particularly out of Romans 9, I was just aghast by what it actually said.

I said, it can't mean what it actually says. It has to mean something different. So I too softened it.

And until I realized what I was doing. So when we get to the issue here of Jacob loved

Esau, I hated in Romans 9, 13. What it says is that Jacob, he loved and he hated

Esau. That's what it says. And when people say, well, it just means he loved him less.

Well, there's a sense in which that's true because in Romans 5, 43 through 48,

God loves everyone. But the kind of love that's being spoken of there is the providential love that he lets the rain and the sun shine on the and fall upon the good and the bad and that they can enjoy life and things like that.

However, if you read what Romans 9 says, starting in verse 9, at this time,

Sarah will have a son. And in verse 11, the twins were not yet born.

So that according to God's purpose, his choice, not because of works, but because of him who calls it was said, the older will serve the younger.

So most people don't have a problem with verse 12 in that it was that God ordained one to serve the other.

Well, okay, I can get that. It wasn't based on their works, not yet born, nothing good or bad, but according to God's choice.

And a lot of times they want to go back to the Old Testament at this point and they want to read a context and then they want to import the context into here and say, this is why

God did what he did. What they don't realize what they're doing is they're saying that God shows favoritism.

And favoritism is negated in Romans 2 .11 and James 2 .2 -4.

Favoritism is where God looks upon a person, seeing what quality he or she has, and then bases his decision to save or not save based on what's in that person.

Well, that's favoritism. And God doesn't show favoritism. He doesn't display his kindness upon the unregenerate for how good they are.

And he knows what they'll do if he chooses them and saves them. And this is a very weak view of Trinitarian theology, dealing with the immutability, the aseity, omniscience, omnipotence of God and his eternal decrees.

And so people who don't study those things, what they do, because they don't have those kinds of values in their theological box, they don't know how to deal with some of these issues as well.

And so when it comes up to something like this, Jacob, I loved, he saw, he hated, they're going to say things just like he said.

They're going to say, well, he loved him less. It doesn't say that. It says he hated him.

And it's from, we have to understand it's an issue of actual hate.

Meseo is the Greek word. Meseo means to hate, to an act of will in words and contact of persecuting spirit.

It stands opposite to agapapo, to love. And so we see that that's the case.

And we see that God loved one and hated the other based on his sovereign choice, not because of anything foreseen that they would do.

And that's what Romans 9, 11 says. Now, in light of that, some people say, well, no,

God doesn't hate anybody. And I have to correct them and say, yes, he does. Psalm 5, 5, the boastful shall not stand before your eyes.

You hate all who do iniquity. When I show that to people, they're often shocked that God actually says that.

The psalmist says that about God. You go to Psalm 11, 5, the Lord tests the righteous and the wicked and the one who loves violence, his soul hates.

So God hates those who love violence. He hates those who love iniquity and do these things.

And people are shocked by that. Well, that's what the scriptures say. And so the problem then becomes how do they incorporate the truths of God's word into their theological perspective?

One of the ways I will do that is by going through Romans 9 and teach them and say, here's what it says.

Jacob, I loved Esau, I hated. The older will serve the younger. It wasn't based on any foreseen ability, anything in them.

And then the test to see if you understand what is being said is in verse 14.

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be. So wait a minute.

If God's going to love one and hate another just because that's what he chooses to do, that's not fair. Well, yes, it is fair.

That's what he says. And he said, well, there's no injustice with God. That means you're understanding what

God's teaching. If you were to interpret the text, Jacob is a nation and Esau is a nation and they have free will individuals within those nations.

And so those individuals were able to make choices. And so God loved one nation more than another. Well, then why the objection that you say it's not in just with God?

Well, that would be just, wouldn't it? So the problem here is that a lot of times the, let's just say, calm

Armenians, they will soften stuff so much that they don't realize what they're doing.

But Paul goes on to say, you know, before he says to Moses, I'll have mercy on whom I have mercy and I'll have compassion on whom

I have compassion. The word whom in the Greek is in the singular and it's an accusative singular form.

And so it's not talking about plurality. And he goes on, he says, it does not depend upon the man that's in the singular also who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And then for the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose, I raised you up. Pharaoh is an individual. And he says to demonstrate my power in you.

And you can remember that Pharaoh at one point wanted to let people go and God hardened his heart. So he wouldn't.

And there's reasons for that. Then verse 18, so his mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires and the whom there's in the singular also.

So it doesn't depend upon us for God's mercy on our foreseen goodness, what will do our sincerity of heart.

It doesn't depend on that. So then he just, he has mercy on whom he desires. He hardens whom he desires.

Well, people are like, well, that's not fair. I mean, that didn't seem right. Well, that means you're, you're understanding the text of what it's actually being taught here by Paul.

And then Paul answered, well, who will say to me, why does he still find fault? Why does he resist as well?

And verse 19, that's what the objection is. Well, why did you still find fault? Because if he's having mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires, well, then he still still blames them because he's the one hardening them.

And that's the natural objection. That's what you'd have to ask if you're understanding what he says. And then

Paul doesn't give an explanation and justify it. He just simply says on the contrary, who are you old man who answers back to God?

The thing, it's a singular, molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump, one vessel for honorable use and another for common use.

Now I've done a research on the word vessel. Whenever it's in reference to it's one vessel and in reference to people, it's always individuals.

It's people, individual people, individuals. So, uh, or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump, one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known and do it with much patience, vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction.

What people will do at this point is say, what if God didn't mean he did doesn't mean he did. It means what if he wanted to, well, let's work with that.

Let's say he wanted to, then what he's saying is that's what he would do if he wanted to. Right. Then you still would have the same objection because it means that this is what is be right according to God's nature and according to his understanding.

And the objection would still stand. But some people like to say, well, what if means he just thinks about it, but wouldn't really do it.

Really? Is that what's going on there? There's the softening again to make it fit their presuppositions. And he says that he endured with much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

That's what they're prepared for. And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory.

So what Paul's teaching in Romans 9, 19, 23 is God's sovereign right to do with his creation as he desires.

Humanism is the philosophy that human factors, human sensibilities, human standards are what we're going to judge scripture by and God by.

And it's a normal thing that people do, but it's all refuted by Romans 9, 9 to 23.

All right, we've got a break. So please hold on. I'll be right back. We'll get back on with the phone here with you after the break.

Please stay tuned, everybody. We'll be right back after these messages. Let's get back on the air with Jason.

Hey, Jason, you're back on. Hey, Matt, I appreciate it.

A wonderful explanation. I know it's a tough text for most people to take in because they only view

God as only loving, but we know that hell exists and we know that election exists.

So I always, when I talk to Arminian people, I say, even if it means that Esau was loved a little teeny weeny bit less, that little bit less means he wasn't elected.

God did not regenerate him and the wrath of God remains upon him. So I'm not going to stick my head in the sand like an ostrich and ignore the text.

And I appreciate your further explanation. Yeah, it's one of my favorite texts in the scriptures of all things that Romans 9, 9 to 23,

Colossians 2, 14, Romans 5, 18, Ephesians 1, 4. And the reason those are my favorite sections of scripture is because they reveal to me the greatness of God.

You know, when I was in seminary, went to Westminster Seminary and I still remember this. I've said it so many times over the radio over the years, but I remember where I was sitting.

I remember the classroom. I remember the white board and the different colored markers the professor could use.

And in the class, he said, gentlemen, and with no ladies in the class at the time, and there were female students there, and that was great.

But in this class, I don't remember any women. And so he said, gentlemen, I'm going to tell you one of the most important things you're ever going to learn here in seminary.

I remember being intrigued and thinking this was exactly what I'm here to seminary to learn.

And he wrote two sentences on the board. There is a God, you are not him. And I remember being disappointed because I said, well, of course.

And over the years, since I've graduated, I've come to learn how important that statement is. And one of the things

I've learned over the years is that the more I learn about God, the more I learn about the distance between God and myself, aside from Christ.

I mean, Christ, he brings us together in fellowship and intimacy. But without Christ, without the mediator, the high priest, the distance between myself and God is just infinite.

It's not like God will look upon me because I have a sincere heart or I can be used because I'm pretty nice.

No, none of that exists in me because God is the standard of righteousness, not me.

And as I've learned that over the years, I've learned how great he is and I've grown to appreciate his greatness.

In fact, you know, I'm going to say something here. Years ago, I remember back in the 80s,

I worked at a big company in Fullerton, California. And I remember walking the halls daily.

And I remember a certain point in time, praying and asking God to renew in me that initial baptism of the spirit that I'd received, where it was an insatiable desire for God.

And he had done that to me. God had. Where I was reading the Bible four to six hours a day and going to Bible study six nights a week.

It was just insatiable. And it was a blessing from God. It lasted for a couple of years, a couple, three, four years,

I guess. And I'd grown through it and I found myself coveting it and wanting it and desiring it and looking for that experience again and again.

And that initial experience of my first conversion, my first conversion, my conversion at 17, when

I was first converted to the very presence of God himself and the holiness and the power. And I wanted it again.

And it's never come back to me. And over the years, as I compare that almost idolatrous desire for that experience again, because that's how much

I wanted it. I've kind of matured and come to understand that the reason

I believe, the reason he's not given that to me again is because he wanted me to learn and be able to teach and to not look to an experience, but to learn about him.

He's given me so much in his presence has given to all of us, but he also wants us to press on to more mature things and to leave the elementary principles behind and be renewed by the renewing of our mind.

And these are the things as I grow older, and I'm 66 now that I look and I say,

I say, it's a pleasure to learn more about God. I want to experience him, of course, but I've learned so much.

And I'm seeing that is a great thing. And it, it exposes light upon my heart, my soul, and shows me how great his grace is.

And he's wonderful. And that's, those are the reasons I love those kinds of verses.

Ephesians 1 .4, Colossians 2 .14, Romans 5 .18,

Romans 9 .9 -23, because they're about him and his greatness and not mine.

That's what I say. Anyway, you just got me thinking. Okay. Amen. Well, thank you very much, Matt. Have a great afternoon.

And thank you for that question. You got me musing and thinking and I appreciate it.