July 30, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Former Radical Liberal Theologian Thomas C. Oden on his autobiography & Jim Harrison on “Lessons For a Calvinist From a Methodist’s Journey”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of July

2015 and I'm a very eager to interview our next guest

because his very fascinating testimony of Conversion from liberalism

in fact radical liberalism to biblical Christianity and I'm speaking of Dr.

Thomas C Odin and we are going to be addressing his autobiography a change

of heart a personal and theological memoir and before I introduce dr Odin, I want to just

read a couple of the commendations for his book.

Timothy George of Beeson Divinity School says Tom Odin is one of the most remarkable Christians of our

time.

This is the story of how he has lived through contributed to and helped overthrow

Several revolutions during his long and fruitful life deeply rooted in Wesleyan spiritual

traditions Odin shows us the meaning of grace and a human life grace that shatters in order to

restore and bring joy.

Those of us who know and love the great theologian will be delighted to read the story of

his pilgrimage.

Thus far the whole church will be blessed by it.

Then we also have someone who is no fan of my Calvinism,

but who is also at least very well known for his firm commitment to conservative

Christianity and and biblical orthodoxy.

Page Patterson of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

He says of dr Odin's book if ever a theologian should provide a memoir of his journey.

Tom Odin is the one a change of heart is the record of that phenomenal sojourn

intersecting the lives of countless theologians and religious leaders and As readers of the relentless

Odin would expect the pages of this book fly by on the winds of Odin the wordsmith.

This is the montage of a master artist.

Well, that's a pretty powerful Endorsement and I'm honored and privileged to welcome you for the very first

time to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Thomas C. Odin.

Well I'm sure he knew he was speaking of you When he when he wrote that unless your

publisher made a horrible blunder there in the in the packaging of the book.

But it is my honor and privilege to have you on the program dr Odin and I've heard many

wonderful things about you and your work and In fact, as you

know the second hour of our two -hour broadcast today Will feature pastor Jim

Harrison of the Red Mills Baptist Church who was so blessed by reading

your book that he really felt compelled to.

Write a paper a thorough paper on your book and how the Evangelical church at large

needs to hear the message that you've contained in your autobiography.

So he is going to be addressing that very subject in the second hour.

Well.

First of all so our listeners can get a little bit of an understanding of you as a person and

Where you are coming from as a as a Christian and a theologian.

Let's get a some background on you.

I understand that you were raised in a Methodist home and in a Christian upbringing and

Before I even continue on I'm going to give our email address if you have a question for dr Odin our email address

is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Let's see HR is a RN Zen at gmail .com and if you're

writing with a question Please include your first name your city and state and your country if

outside the USA.

But I have a surprise for you.

The first three listeners who send in a question that

Is is good enough to be read on air that is applicable to our subject.

You'll receive a free copy of dr. Odin's book and today We're also

restricting that to folks who have not recently won a book.

And we're also restricting this offer To the United States.

We urge our foreign listeners or overseas listeners and our listeners in Canada to

write to us with a question and include where you're from but our sponsor who is shipping out the

free books cannot be overwhelmed with overseas shipping costs and Canadian shipping costs, so

we ask of you to be Patient with us on that and we'd still love to hear

from you nonetheless because we know that we do have listeners all over the World and that's Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

So you were raised in a Bible -believing Methodist home, which was much more common.

You're saying back in that day and the earlier part of the 20th century.

Tell us something about how long in your in your youth you

Retained and believed in any of these major elements that are common in a true Christian

household.

So

basically.

You were Intellectually seduced by people like Marx Nietzsche and

Freud Discovering them as a young man their writings.

And.

You were also intrigued.

I understand after World War two with pacifism, which since Many liberals

are pacifists not all And not all pacifists are liberal, but there is a

obviously a large liberal element in that.

Ideology or connected to

it to tell

us something about that.

My church.

Yeah, and my

apologies to those who are Bible -believing Christians who are.

A pacifist such as people who are in different Anabaptist groups.

I didn't mean to broad brush you with Liberalism, but it just so happens as you are probably fully aware.

Those of you listening from those backgrounds because I know there are a lot of them here in Pennsylvania

that I did not tend to broad brush you but that you know, you're fully aware that this is a

statistical fact that there is much liberalism connected with pacifism and that ideology and.

So did you actually could become a full -blown Marxist in your ideology?

And while you were Delving deeper and deeper into.

The.

Clutch of liberalism.

Into the enslavement or the trap of it.

Of course, you didn't view it that way as you said you loved it, but.

Did you did you always?

Identify yourself either in your mind or in in public as a Christian.

And did you see this as Being completely compatible if not more of an

expression of Christianity.

Because very often as you know Liberals will make the false claim that their

ideology actually resembles Jesus Christ in a more vibrant way

because he is of course for the underdog and has Compassion for

the the poor.

And and you could go on and on with the the elements of Christ's descriptions

that the liberals would believe they identify and manifest more clearly than conservatives do so.

Did you always consider yourself a Christian during this period?

Did

you

also get

involved

in.

Pro -choice activism or at least belief in the abortion of unborn children

and the Homosexual rights movement were those elements of your liberalism.

Well, I

didn't

mean personally as

an active

lifestyle

for you.

I meant as far as

supporting or advocating homosexuals in that activity.

Okay, we do

have a listener from Massapequa Park.

Long Island, New York.

Susan who writes.

I am interested in knowing if there is something inherent in Methodism that allowed for the encroachment of

liberalism although doctrine Meant a lot to Wesley and the book of

discipline asserted that.

Do you think that the?

Unconventional beginnings of the Methodist movement may have created the ability for heresy to eventually

poke its way in thanks and.

Susan is a member of Seaford Methodist Church on Long Island.

Yes.

No, it's not in the evangelical

The I do.

I wanted to also let

our

listeners

know since I

believe

I probably have

a predominantly

reformed or

Calvinistic

audience.

Just because of the fact that people are aware that I am and that's how word typically spreads about my program.

But you although you are not a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist you are not anti Calvinist, are you?

Well, I've

read the the dispute.

I've read the disputes plural I should say.

Brotherly disputes that he's had in with has had in the past obviously

with George Whitfield who was a thoroughgoing Calvinist and obviously there were some differences in regarding to

unconditional election and and Limited atonement, but that is

the thrust of our discussion today.

But you you do not as some Wesleyans do and some Armenians do you don't

Count your Calvinist brother and brethren as heretics or anything such as that.

There seems to be a paradox.

Well, actually it's more than it just seems to be.

There is a paradox in liberalism because you have people on the one hand.

Who.

View themselves as the primary advocates for the underdog and you

have people who Have a compassion for the poor and you have a

people who have a compassion and a love for minorities and a desire

to make sure that they are protected from bigotry hatred and physical

harm and So on and so on but then you then you have this this strange

paradox where you have who is who are the the The most vulnerable people

on the planet Earth who are the Greatest underdogs if you will or the the least among us

unborn children, and there seems to be little Compassion amongst many and I don't mean to broad

brush.

I'm sure that there are a number of pro -life liberals, but the absolute

Lack of concern it seems for the torturous death that goes on in abortion and then on

top of that The inherent racism that has existed in the

abortion industry the birth it came out of the desire of Margaret Sanger and

other white elitists to Eradicate minorities from the face of the earth through forced

sterilization and abortion.

How do you how do you explain that or even?

Conceive of that in your mind how those two polar opposite things exist within liberalism.

Amen, but do you see where I'm coming from though that that seems to be a strange paradox within liberalism?

Yes, well obviously since most of the reformed Christians I know hold to their Wesleyan and Arminian

Brethren as brothers.

We obviously believe that the the gospel there is enough of the gospel that is held in common that we

would Look forward to seeing one another in heaven One day but

you how long did you Live and work and teach and

write as a liberal and when did the cracks start to form?

How long ago?

Did the cracks start to form in this cherished? ideology and theology that you had

embraced and.

Celebrated

and rejoiced

in.

Well,

we

do

have a

listener

in

Tavaris,

Florida.

And I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Reverend dr. Richard F. Williamson.

Oh, this is a an old friend of mine who used to be a guest years ago on the old iron sharpens iron.

And I'm glad that Richard is listening today.

He said here is my question for dr. Odin.

Do you see a split coming in the United Methodist Church.

Should the next general conference normalize homosexual behavior.

If yes?

What advice would you give to theologically Orthodox clergy and congregations?

Very good question.

Well,

that's

good

to

hear.

And I want to get back to the United Methodist Church specifically.

Towards the end of our discussion because right now I still want to continue more about your personal life and transformation but

we're going to be going to a brief station break and.

If you do have a question for dr. Odin, please email us at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have one more copy to give away of dr. Odin's autobiography a

change of heart a personal and theological memoir.

If you have a question, that's good enough to be read on the air and if it's applicable to our subject.

Please include your mailing address as well when you send in your question.

Don't go away we're gonna be right back after these messages with more of Dr. Thomas C.

Odin and his change of heart.

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Welcome

back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you've just tuned us in our guest today is dr. Thomas C Odin.

He is the author of his autobiography that we are discussing today a change of

heart a Personal and theological memoir and a host of other things that he has written in the scholarly

realm regarding theology and church history.

Before we go on with your personal testimony.

What are the some of the other?

Organizations that you are involved in.

I know that there is one involving African Christian history and so on.

Why don't you tell our listeners something more about those?

Organizations and venues where you Use your scholarly skills for God's glory today.

Early African Christianity.

Calm.

Okay, great.

And we will repeat that hopefully before the end of the program and your own personal website and so on.

Going back to your liberalism.

Were you straight across the board?

Theologically a hardcore liberal in regard to a denial of the deity of Christ a denial of

the resurrection of Christ.

The you know, the virgin birth of Christ.

The pillars that many liberals theologically have abandoned.

Although not all that would be somewhat identified with liberalism would deny those

pillars.

But were you among them that would totally obliterate the foundations of the Christian faith

theologically in that way?

Lord

and

regarding

the

creation

of all things.

By God obviously most Liberals would be hardcore evolutionists

and I was wondering if you were even aware back then especially as a liberal

that the the full title originally of Darwin's origin of the species

Was origin of the species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races

in The struggle for life and it is clear that Darwin was a racist to believe that non whites

were closer in the evolutionary chain to the apes and which is why the Nazis and other racists

had eagerly and enthusiastically Adopted the theory which is another mystery as I mentioned

earlier about the paradox of liberalism.

Who seems to be so compassionate and.

Passionate about their fight against racial hatred

and so on.

I was

and.

So I Want to get to the point unless you have something further to add about your life as a liberal I

really want to get to what was most involved in your life that

confronted you and What that the Lord used to really.

Break your heart of stone and remove it and give you a heart of flesh.

What was the.

The.

Occurrences in your life and the actual Documentation and other things that you were faced with that

that caused the change and also I want to know how gradual or how quick this Was.

I mean obviously after the 20 -year period that you mentioned.

Now after you came to that conclusion by God's mercy was

was everything like Dumped in a heap.

You believed or did it take another decade or so to slowly gradually?

Be released from your grip if you follow what I'm saying and

I'm assuming that a final Realization of the

truth of the inerrancy of Scripture had to be some kind of a powerful Revelation to you.

Because obviously if you believe in the inerrancy of Scription of Scripture you have no way to run and hide

like liberals do who have a cafeterias approach to the

Bible and embrace what Seems to suit their fancy and

throw out that which makes them uncomfortable.

A perfect example of that would be John Shelby Spong who still

claims To love the Bible and read it daily and to grant and to gain strength from

it, but he believes that to believe The Bible is inerrant is one of the most dangerous

and hateful things that you can do.

So if you could explain something about that, oh,

yeah, can you hear me?

Oh, I didn't know that Wesleyans had a problem with biblical inerrancy.

Like infallibility.

Okay, and so the so I guess because of the fact that you learned about inerrancy from

the fathers.

Was it because you logically came to the conclusion then that if the ancient

church?

Believed in inerrancy.

It must be a main element or crucial aspect of genuine authentic

historic Christianity and therefore you can't really be a A Christian in any real sense of

the term if you abandon such a belief.

Yeah,

and.

So you have in your in your process where the the journey that God took you on?

to become a full -fledged Bible -believing Christian

Evangelical conservative, however, you want to describe that.

Did this cause a great crisis in your life with employment with friendships with

family, well, you know was there a lot of Abandonment of you by

those that you held dear in your life.

Now what Institutions of higher learning where you are involved in.

As a liberal before your departure

from

liberalism for

three years between 1953 and 56 then

from

1950.

Yes

now

have

any of

those.

Institutions invited you back to speak as sometimes

Seminaries and Colleges will have even people who oppose their worldview or

theology speak just in the tradition of Collegiate

debate and so on.

Have any of them invited you back to speak since the Conversion into

Orthodox Christianity.

Any other other than the patristics.

Any other more recent or specifically Protestant.

Heroes of the faith that had any impact on you during your transformation.

Now, did you.

Did you

mention

Albert Muller

in that

list?

Okay, yeah, you're for some reason that I'm unaware of.

You're breaking up.

All of a sudden your phone started breaking up, but could you repeat that one more time?

I didn't.

I didn't hear what you said.

I'm sorry.

Yeah,

you'll have to call back obviously, so I'll have to hang up.

And while we are waiting for Dr. Odin to call back and he's only going to be on for another

seven minutes or so I'll repeat our email address one more time.

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And we look forward to hearing from you with a question if you have one and we do have one more copy of

Dr. Odin's book left to give away if you would like to have a copy

of that.

In fact, I'm gonna go right now to a brief commercial break.

So we will be right back after these messages.

Don't go away.

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Well, we're not 100 % sure that dr. Odin is gonna be able to get back in time.

We do have five minutes left and he seems to be having phone problems.

He tried to call me back and was not on the extension.

I'm going to take one more brief commercial break to see if we can get him back on.

And of course this is just another one of the exuberant joys of live radio

so We hope that you all will be patient with us as we try to at least conclude the program with

dr Odin before we move on to our next guest and we'll be right back with another message from our sponsors.

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I.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

We do have dr. Odin on the phone.

Dr. Odin.

Are you there?

Yes, I apologize.

I should have told you I should have warned you before the show not to use a cell phone.

I apologize as I had a hectic day today and it slipped my mind to Warn you

about using cell phones.

I'm sorry about that.

Yes, and we were just saying where I was trying to hear.

Did you say dr. Moeller was an influence influence on you?

Dr. Albert Moeller of Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, or is this somebody else?

Okay, all right, well one of the things that I hear a

lot from More conservative evangelicals as we wrap up the program today

Fundamentalist and so on is that a Christian should never be a part

or in alignment with a liberal Denomination or group

that is really in many ways an enemy of Christ and his gospel and an enemy of

unborn life an enemy of a traditional biblical God -ordained

marriage and an enemy of the scriptures and they will say that you know that you

should flee from that denomination come out of it and Be apart from it be

separate from it.

How do you respond to that kind of?

Challenge to you as you remain in the United Methodist Church.

So

you

actually believe that this is something that

the Lord will enable.

Faithful biblically Orthodox Methodists to do in years to come.

Oh, of

course, because we we know that it's not just the United Methodist Church that has abandoned its biblical roots.

We have the Presbyterian Church USA.

Although I have some dear friends who are Bible believing pastors and members of that denomination.

They're pretty much neck -and -neck with with the United Methodist Church, and there are other

Denominate began totally outside of Wesleyan ism that were one -time

Lovers of the Bible and proclaimers of the gospel, but who have totally abandoned it so I didn't mean to

Pin this on Wesley or give him the blame for what has become of your denomination.

I'm just speaking on the basis of that.

It seems to be overrun.

By liberals not necessarily as you were saying in the pews but in the pulp in

the pulpits and in the halls of academia up and.

Do you think that?

Why and before we conclude?

Why do you think that?

The lady could be Bible -believing biblically

Orthodox theologically and doctrinally Orthodox people in mass and.

And overwhelm those who are in control who are liberal and apostate.

How could the denomination still be held?

By the power of liberalism if there are so many in the pews that that are not liberal and who are actually

in opposition to that.

Hello, dr. Rodin.

Yes, I am.

Dr. Rodin.

I'm here.

Well, I am.

I'm sorry.

We seem to be having phone problems.

Dr. Rodin.

We hope to have you back on in the future.

I really apologize.

I really apologize for this and Obviously we are going to have to go on

to our next guest and I have no idea why we hold I think we have either dr. Rodin or Jim

Harrison.

Hello.

Hello.

Is this Jim Harrison or dr. Rodin?

Hello.

Hello.

Well, we are having problems right now and we're going to go to a station break and I have no idea what what

is happening here with the joys of live radio as I've mentioned earlier, but we're gonna be

back after these messages, hopefully and hopefully we'll be able to have a remainder

of the broadcast.

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It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Harkins in for the iron sharpens iron comedy hour and I I

Just can't help but to laugh about the technical Problems that we have from time to time.

It's better than the laugh than the cry and to throw my Soundboard out the window

But I don't actually think this time it had anything to do with my soundboard.

I think it was a phone problem on Dr. Odin's end and we apologize to all of you who

love and appreciate dr Odin and his writings and his ministry, but hopefully we will have him back on in

the near future and Once again, these were things beyond our control here because

obviously dr. Odin didn't seem to understand What was technically happening because he did switch phones.

So I'm not certain but hopefully we'll not we will not have these problems the remaining hour with

our guest pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in

Mahabat Falls, New York.

He's a dear friend that I've known for a number of years.

He was a guest from time to time on the old iron sharpens iron and

we are Very delighted to have him to speak on Dr. Odin's work and

why he believes that the Evangelical Church at large needs to learn a lesson or to learn many lessons

from dr. Odin's own journey and pilgrimage into

Biblical Orthodoxy, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back.

Once again, Pastor Jim Harrison and of just briefly

again Reintroduce Red Mills Baptist Church to our listeners

Great and the website again is Red Mill Baptist Church, I'm sorry.

Yeah, Red Mills Baptist org.

Okay, I

think

that.

Before we even go into some specific and very important

matters that you have gleaned.

From.

Dr. Odin's autobiography a change of heart a personal theological memoir.

I think it might be a good idea to reset the stage for our listeners who may have just tuned us

in and Do some defining of terms here.

What what is in your opinion the briefest way to describe?

Liberal theology and.

You might even want to throw in there a definition of neo -orthodoxy Orthodoxy because

of the fact that although we would not View neo -orthodoxy

as orthodox It is not the same as liberalism.

Which many people seem to make the error and equate it with liberalism when it was really a reaction to

liberalism, wasn't it?

Yeah, you have that across the board where you have I know personally a

Few very conservative and theologically reformed Anglican ministers

Who are not only battling? Liberalism on the left.

They are also battling Romanism within their own denomination on the right from the

that wing of the Anglo Catholic wing of the of the Anglican Church and.

You.

Also have I think I think that's called the the Oxford movement, but it's escaping my name my

mind.

And of course, you know.

Yes, and as I was mentioning to I don't hope that dr. Odin didn't think that I was

blaming John Wesley for all of the ills within the denomination because I was trying to point out that

across all of the mainline denominations this Liberal war had

Occurred and it's still occurring and you know, it's only the Lutheran the Presbyterian the Congregationalist,

you know.

Exactly,

right.

And so I

know

that you

were

you

were.

Really moved in some way profoundly by dr. Odin's

Autobiography a change of heart a personal and theological memoir.

And you have Really come up with a list of things that you think the

Evangelical Church at large could desperately needs to Hear

again and could learn from and I know that one of them is that the church must maintain.

Theological

boundaries.

Perhaps

you could

further

explore

that and

if there is

one went on

and on

with

that.

So

that's

a

huge

problem

now,

obviously

the one of

the most

difficult

things

that individual Christians can do.

And even the church corporately can do Is to be in the world and

not of the world and we very rarely Strike just the right balance

because we are sinners and we are fallible and and we are

Constantly being lured by the world of the flesh and the devil and One of the things that you

believe is a very important aspect of the recovery

of Evangelicalism to the scriptures Is

that the church must engage in the culture without accommodating the culture and

it seems that we have Always had opposite polar responses to the

culture.

We have the extreme monastic Concept where the only way to remain holy

is to be Locked in a monastery or a cave somewhere with other

fellow believers who are like -minded and totally separated from the world and You

have a less severe expression of that with fundamentalists Who

some of which will not even dine in a restaurant that may have a bar in it or who serve?

Alcohol and you know, you could go on and on with the different ways in which

Christians do not engage or Inhabit the the culture and then of course

probably the more serious problem with an evangelicalism is Christians or self -professed

Christians becoming just like their surroundings and adopting the ways of

the secular society To entice people into their

churches and so on and also becoming involved in sinful activity

Because they're just joining the party with everybody who surrounds them.

So Comment on that if you could those the struggle that we have and the need for it though Nonetheless

to be salt and light in the world.

And I

want

to

repeat

our

email

address

if

you'd

like

to

join

us on

the

air with

a question for

Jim

Harrison.

As he continues the theme of dr. Thomas E Odin's autobiography of change of

heart a personal and theological memoir and What the Evangelical Church at large

needs to know? And needs to learn from this book.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

One of the Concerns that you have is that the church must resist

hyper individualism Finding its sustenance in the historic Christian consensus and in the

community of the gathered church and I wholeheartedly agree with that as I have Brought up

recently on the program.

I have met many and I'm sure you have met many professed

Christians Evangelicals who are lone wolf Christians mavericks who

believe That in an 180 degree opposite reaction perhaps to Rome and

The belief that there is no salvation outside the church they have run to the other

extreme of believing that they don't need a church in spite of the

Commands in the New Testament that we submit to local elders and so on.

They seem to have no problem in disobeying commands in a Bible.

They believe to be inerrant.

But.

The.

The you do have that lone wolf mentality, but at the same time I have met some

folks who seem to want to downplay the personal and individual aspect

of the Christian life that is beautiful and Precious.

I'll give you an example.

I have.

I have a friend.

Who.

He recoils in horror when he hears people speak of their personal Savior

and he speaks of the fact that you know, Jesus loved the church and died for the church and

I reminded him that as a Calvinist, I believe in particular redemption

and one of the things I find most precious about that is that when Christ

Completed the atonement on Calvary it wasn't for a faceless nameless sea

of humanity that he Died for he literally had

Chris Arnzen's name on his heart and mind when he went to the cross and he Knew

that he was going to complete that act of redemption and he knew that one day He will take me

home with him to glory.

Yeah, so do you see the the polar opposites that I'm trying to Set forth here and how we we have to be careful

not to fall in either one of those camps.

Yes,

and

and

I

think

that

one

of

the

reasons

that.

Hyper individualism may have come about is presumptive regeneration where you

have People believing that they're Christians just because they were born

into a so -called Christian home baptized as babies and

or even in the Bible Belt, they could even be from Baptistic backgrounds and Their parents

will say to them.

Well, you're 12 years old now.

I think you should get baptized, you know and people just automatically going through

traditions that have been Customs in their families for generations and

That could be a reason for the hyper individualism because of the fact that we need to have

a personal Experience with Christ.

Am I wrong there?

And it's

the

height of

arrogance to

think

that you

don't need

a

teacher.

When the scriptures even make it clear that not everybody should be a teacher and

therefore it is the absolute height of Arrogance and

Foolishness to think that someone doesn't need anybody to guide them at all in the most

important the most crucial and vital areas of life those that involve

eternal life and The whole mindset that I've even remember.

The.

Well, I actually I'm going to go to a break right now before we continue with that discussion but I will pick up on that thought

when we return and go on to some of the other vital elements of your Your paper that you are discussing

today.

Shoot us an email.

If you have a question for Jim Harrison at Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Lawrence.

Our guest today is Jim Harrison for part two of our two -hour broadcast we began

with dr. Thomas Oden speaking about a change of heart a

personal and theological memoir which chronicles his journey from radical

liberalism into biblical Orthodox Christianity.

And I'm not speaking of the Eastern Orthodox denominations and speaking about Biblically accurate and

faithful theology.

And Today to pick up in our second hour.

That theme that dr. Oden began is pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist

Church.

His website is Red Mill Baptist org.

Red Mills Baptist org and I was saying before the break.

We were both saying that people in their height of arrogance do not believe.

Many people I should say do not believe they need teachers.

Some of them would claim they don't need any commentaries or books other than the Bible.

Some of them would even think that this is somehow a violation of solo script Torah.

Which is absurd and I was thinking of one famous individual who is now in

heaven David Hunt.

Who?

During a radio discussion with our mutual friend. Dr. James R white when James

Asked David if he was concerned that.

That he was on the side of the Church of Rome in the great debate during the

Reformation between Luther and Erasmus that David Hunt was actually on the side of

Rome in that area and David Hunt was probably most well known for his his

books refuting Roman Catholicism and even you know going to the extremes of

Them being the Antichrist or the papal office and so on.

And yet he would be on the side of Rome about the will of man unconsciously and

David Hunt's response was well, I don't really know much about what the Reformers wrote.

I don't really read them.

I like to approach the Bible as if I'm the first one reading it that kind of approach.

That's

really

a

dangerous

approach

to the

scriptures,

isn't

it?

We.

Do have a listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Ted.

Who writes?

Let's see here.

I Lost the email from Ted.

Hold on one second.

Let me repeat our email address.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

If you'd like to ask a question of our guests.

Has pastor Harrison read dr. Odin's

systematic

theology and

if so,

what

was

the what

was

his

assessment of it

an.

Anonymous writer asks.

Can pastor Harrison as a Calvinist answer the same question that a

listener from Massapequa Park Long Island Susan asked earlier.

Where she asks.

I am interested in knowing if there is something inherent in Methodism that allowed for the encroachment of

Liberalism so this anonymous listener wants to know if you as a Calvinist have a different answer for that

question.

But isn't it interesting though that without exception to my knowledge

all of the Denominations that have gone liberal like the PC USA and the RCA

They really abandoned Calvinism though.

Along with that they weren't for the most part simultaneously liberal and true

Calvinists believing in the total depravity of man and other things such as that that are crucial to

the system of Calvinism.

And

You believe that the church must recover the concept of heresy.

If you could explain further.

Theological

and

in

fact.

Most evangelicals it seems that the greatest Heresy that

Evangelicals at large believe exists is the belief that there is such a thing as heresy.

And of

course

the

liberals

believe

that.

Everything that we view is heresy.

For us to believe that is heresy to them.

It's absolute heresy to not celebrate homosexuality In its varying

forms, it's absolute Heresy to not believe that women should

have the freedom to murder Unborn babies in their bodies and so on and so on it.

They don't take that lightly as if that's just a issue to discuss over cups of tea.

They believe that is absolute arch heresy.

And you believe that the church must take seriously the deceptive nature of false teachers.

And that's another thing that goes in the hand -in -hand with the evangelical church at large.

Being so frightened of even using the term heresy.

And

you

believe.

In echoing Odin that the church must recover the conviction that modern questions

are best solved by ancient Solutions.

Now obviously there has to be great care with that though because you know as well as I do

that the patristic writers are not a unified and monolithic group of people that have

Wonderful biblical wisdom to impart to us.

There are some very strange things That were believed by church fathers and written by them

and so on.

So

if

you

could

comment on that

when

I talk

about

and of course.

You just said a lot of what needed to be said about the church Maintaining a high view of Scripture,

but isn't that something that we need to be warned by today?

Warned about today because it's not only liberals who have lowered the their view of

Scripture in the charismatic and Pentecostal movement.

Although they would never admit that.

In those words the belief in extra biblical revelation and the constant

searching for Manifestations of the miraculous and so on seems to have diminished the importance of what the

Bible actually teaches.

And.

You believe finally that the church must maintain a clear and focused understanding of its biblical calling.

I think that you Touched on that before when you were talking about Odin's redefining

different aspects of Christian truth In liberal terms like what salvation was and what

sin was and all that type of thing.

But I think that that kind of touches on what is a real?

What is the real calling of the church?

You mean Odin the old Odin?

And I

thank you so much for

being our

guest or

second

guest today.

Pastor Jim Harrison you did a phenomenal job as always I look forward to having you back.

And I know your website is redmillsbaptist .org.

Thank you, brother, thank you.

I want to thank dr. Odin if you're listening for being a part of a program.

I look forward to having you back when we have better phone connections.

I want to thank everybody who listened and especially those who wrote during the program.

And I want you to always remember for the rest of your lives If each and every one of you that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to you joining us tomorrow on iron sharpens iron.

God bless.