Finished Barker/Wilson Debate

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.

We are at the exact same time We always are despite the fact that an hour ago. I watched all the time challenged people flooding into the channel going.

Where's the dividing line? Because half people don't understand there's between MST mountains standard time and MDT Mountain daylight time but hey

It happens twice a year that all the rest of you fiddle with your clocks and we in Arizona Just don't and that's sort of how it works though Like I said, we end up fiddling with them because they're atomic then they're all confused and they don't know what's going on But anyway, welcome to the dividing line

We are here on time to finish up the Barker Wilson debate today And then

I've got some other things lined up if we get that far but I do want to make sure to finish the

Barker Wilson debates, which we've been listening to for three programs now and specifically

We were in the cross -examination portion where Dan Barker was attempting to Refute the existence of God by proving that Doug Wilson is inconsistent

Because he was on a jury and he voted for the guilt of someone without two or three witnesses

IE eyewitnesses and It didn't seem to understand that well actually we Christians actually take principles and apply them to life and that Doug had been quite consistent

To insist on two or three independent lines of testimony that those can be witnesses as well and that obviously to force the

Ancient text into a modern context in that way is just downright silly So be that as it may we pick up with the cross -examination and I want

I Really want to get to the closing statements today because I felt that they were very very useful

It's something that happens when somebody When God said thou shalt not kill he said thou shalt not kill in Exodus 20 in Exodus 20

God said you shall not kill and that's just 21 your part. He requires the death penalty for certain offenses

It sounds like you're saying the Bible is contradictory the Bible is contradicting now Do you think it's contradictory between Exodus 20 and Exodus 21?

Are you seriously maintaining that Moses was a pacifist No, Moses was a bloodthirsty leader of a bloodthirsty religion

Now when Moses came when Moses was up on the mountain and he got the Ten Commandments He's looking at the tablets walking down from the mountain

Did he stop up short when he gets and got to the commandment not to kill did he say no killing at all?

Well, if he understood Hebrew, that's what he should have said It's classic that that definitely would go in the classic line

Do you think Moses maybe did understand Hebrew there Dan? Maybe a little bit better than you do. I Hadn't heard cuz

I I listened to this while riding and you always have wind noise and stuff So I didn't hear Dan. I didn't hear

Doug laughing before he said do you think he knew Hebrew? Because again,

I was I was actually going downhill out of Squaw Peak Park at this particular point trying to dodge those

You know, they've put in those Speed those aren't speed bumps. Those are speed mountains Okay I mean they are they are ripped the tailpipe off your of your car type things and when you're going downhill

You know 27 miles per hour on your bike and hit one of those things It's ugly but it was right then I heard that and I I can just see someone is there going up toward their car here

I go by cackling loudly As the Wilson made that made that comment

So in other words, I can't answer this I don't know what I'm talking about How dare you challenge it?

How dare you force me to go any farther than just a surface level answer? Yeah, I'm misrepresenting the context and drat on you for calling me

Okay, I entered into that freely

I'd like to return to an earlier point that you made when you said that I Granted that we did not need evidence for the existence of God.

Could you please state? What you meant by that when I granted that we didn't need evidence

Well, I simply was assuming and I might have been wrong in assuming that since you were not raising evidence in this debate that you were granting the point

But I'm not putting words in your mouth. Okay, what I was what I was saying is that we had a pose the color

What I was pointing out is that before we get to the point where we discuss the evidence And I think there's a tremendous volume of evidence for the reliability of scriptures and so forth

I I'm not embarrassed by the evidence at all. I was simply interested in pointing to the

Preconditions that are necessary for evidence to be reliable. So you do have evidence. Oh, there's a lot of evidence

But before I produce the evidence, I want now I think this is I'm not really probably the best place to stop

Vitally important this is the the the fundamental core of the the difference between the presuppositionalist and evidentialist is the presuppositionalist

Recognizes the inherent impact of the rebellion of sin upon the epistemology of man epistemology big word simply means how we know what we know and I For years.

I've been emphasizing to people that if you have someone who's sitting upon The throne of the universe as Dan Barker thinks he can

He is a little creature that has crawled up upon the Creator's throne and now dares to say

I'm gonna stay here and I dare you to show me evidence that I shouldn't be here and Whenever you bring evidence forward

He says dismissed out of out of line out of I I just miss out of court. It's it's it's out of order and You can so you can bring all the evidence you want but the guy is already sitting there on a throne

That's 10 ,000 times bigger than he is. He already knows he's not supposed to be there You know, he already knows he's a he's a usurper

And so if you don't address those foundational issues first, you're just gonna sit there spinning in circles forever and ever

I was listening to two evidentialist apologists on a ride this week or last week and It was a debate on the resurrection and Two evidentialist apologist versus sort of a an atheist host and then a pretty wild -eyed atheist scholar and It never got anywhere.

It was horribly boring. It never accomplished anything because they were both evidentialists and You just spin around spin around spin around and it's it's your scholar versus my scholar in your opinion versus my opinion did you read so -and -so who said such -and -such and it just accomplishes absolutely positively nothing whatsoever and We've all heard those kinds of situations develop and so It's it's vitally important to understand that when the atheist says well, you haven't offered any evidence

What you're saying is the very fact that we are debating is the evidence You cannot explain how we can even reason logically without Borrowing from my worldview that is the best evidence there is there's all this other evidence

But you're just gonna dismiss it because you're starting in the wrong foot. That is really the essence of I think what really the value of this particular debate and illustrating that over and over again to have

Evidence that evidence was reliable. Yeah, but I want to I want to know where's the beef. That's what I want to know Where where is your evidence for your

God all these presuppositional things? You know who cares? I mean, how many of you came to Jesus because of a presuppositional argument if I know who cares?

now notice Argumentum ad populum. He turns the audience And notice the shift there.

How many of you came to Jesus by presuppositional arguments? That's not what the debate is. Is it?

The debate is over the existence of God with an atheist Who denies the existence of God who as a creature is denying that there is any evidence of God's existence at all?

He has heard every single possible argument there is and has dismissed every single one and he just wants to continue to do that He doesn't want to have it pointed out that he is a creature has no right to be doing what he's doing but then he shifts the ground and He changes it there to how many of you came to Jesus by presuppositional arguments

Doug's not gonna say at this point That's that's a misrepresentation of his position. It's It's it's nice to be able to go through debates like this to be able to point out all these errors

Because in essence in in a debate you have to trust That people are going to be doing what we're doing on this program and unfortunately

People aren't taught to do this anymore They're not taught to do it in churches unfortunately, and they're not certainly not taught to do it in schooling especially public schooling and so It's got to be done someplace else.

It's really pretty much common sense, but It's it's so unusual in our society. That's you got to model it everyone's

Proceeding thank you to those testimonies Evidently there's a bunch of people that were shooting their hands up in the audience.

That's no way I can interpret the laughter and and applause What I would be doing is

I would be granting your autonomous and unbelieving assumptions I don't want to stand on your stage It's happy is it's fine with me that you stand on the stage where we both assume that reason order

Rationality and ethics are coherent and are binding on us I'm simply pointing out that when

I stand on that stage What I say is consistent with what I'm standing on now what you are doing is you are standing on the same stage

But then you're saying I'm just a bunch of Adams banging around and there's no reason for listening to what

I say and you better listen to what I say My response to that is what is wrong with a bunch of Adams banging around why are you attaching a pejorative to it?

What is wrong with them with oh come on that is so obvious Notice again the the not -so -subtle shift what

Doug has said is Adams banging around have no Foundational meaning in of themselves.

He didn't he wasn't saying he didn't say anything pejorative He was saying that if you're gonna say you need to listen to what

I'm saying, but you're nothing but Adams banging around no transcend no transcendent transcendental purpose no

Meaning beyond just random actions then how on earth can you leap from that that?

randomness to enough order for your reasoning to exist and for there to be some meaning to your words and Dan just won't go there and so what he does is as you know

Dan Barker Jerry Matta ticks as a whole group of people we go through from almost every religious perspective of debate and don't ever

Ignore the fact Dan Barker's is religious as anybody ever debated his religion is himself his religion is his atheism

He's still he is still just as much of a fundamentalist as he ever was that's the important thing to keep in mind

But these folks are excellent at taking a point and when they don't want to respond to the point they just rephrase it into a new argument that isn't the argument you made and think they've responded to at that point and Rarely in a debate you have time to even point all that stuff out, but you just saw

Dan Barker doing that pollution producing out of out of simplicity arising into complexity

And in producing what we have become right and what is wrong with being a bunch of Adams do you act like that is something?

You know I'm not I'm not objecting to Adams banging around because I think it's icky I'm I'm I'm simply pointing out that Adams banging around don't think how do you know?

How can you prove that I'm Adams banging around and I'm thinking yes look what you're standing on Adams that are banging around that's what

I'm doing so what's the difference between these Adams and these these are organizing a complex and functional way Those are not these are organized complex.

Yeah, but not quite as complex as the human mind well Yeah, yeah, so come the more complex.

It is the more you should listen to it Yeah, obviously if there's an increase in functional complexity of an organism like a brain

I'm not pretending to be omniscient obviously or omnipotent, but there is there is a certain level of Functionality within our thoughts and our reasoning in our mind

It is something that since we are humans and we relate to it. We can call it beautiful It's not beautiful in the cosmos the cosmos doesn't care.

It's empty. There's no meaning out there If there's going to be any meaning it's got to come from right here, and there's no if there's no meaning out there

How can there be meaning in here because I choose to give meaning I have a mind Like this life that I have

I assign meaning To myself into the human race because I think the human race and humanity is beautiful and worthy of respect

So what that means then of course is that at the last moment of Dan Barker's life all of that self -assigned meaning becomes absolutely worthless worthless

Empty nothing now. He would say yep, you're right and It's not an argument to just admit that the world is a random violent horrible place

That is in exorably moving toward heat death You know that's just the way it is just live with it.

That's that's the atheist response and He doesn't seem to realize that his

Assigning meaning is not the same thing as giving a rational reason for that meaning

He just doesn't doesn't catch it now his closing statement Is not fun to listen to he really gives vent to his true atheism because even though he won't defend his

True atheism where he says God does not exist. You know he wants to defend. I lack a belief in God Here it comes out in its in its full

Venomous state, so I just warn you ahead of time be be prepared for what you're gonna Please turn the cassette over at this time

Please turn the cassette over at this time. Yeah, it was recorded Well He didn't

Make either of those points tonight He tried to address some of the points that I raised about the coherency of God Again, we point this out before Dan is attempting to force

God into human categories refusing to recognize that as Doug has rightly said he's defending the

Christian view of God therefore you have to deal with the Christian view of God which is Fundamentally asserting that not only is

God personal But that our personhood is derivative from his but ours is limited his is not and Therefore to try to limit his based on the creature is

Backwards the person has to make decisions right to be able to make a decision you have to reason you have to think should

I? Go this way or that way should I take this course or should I not take this course? That's part of being a person, but if you don't have that option

There's future uncertainty if you can't make if you don't have that option, then you can't make any decisions at all

And if you can't make any decisions you're not a person God might exist, but he's not a person And some of the other arguments that I raised about the incoherency of the

God concept he didn't address, but this is a short debate But really think about it if there really is a

God why are we having this debate? We all know there's gravity right

I'm gonna make a prediction this this pen is going to go down to the floor Jesus changed his life, and I used to pray that Jesus come into my heart all that thing

I preached it for many many years, but now I know this false. I know she said now. I don't have that belief

He's a hard atheist now. I know it's false He knows God doesn't exist. It's false, but he in his openings.

He always pulls that now. I'd be fascinated to drag him through some sections of Daniel or Isaiah in regards to prophecies of filled in Christ or the

Psalter or whatever else it might be But it'd be interesting to see how he he gets around those, but that was not the topic of the debate

He just threw it out there for the fun Scientists don't get around debating the existence of gravity today.

They might debate some of the theories but scientists don't Suppose a group of scientists was to get together on Sunday morning and join hands and get in a circle and start

I'm going oh yes gravity is real I know in my heart that gravity is real what goes up up up must come down down down And I will have faith.

I will be strong wouldn't you think they were pretty insecure about the concepts if they were doing that And yet, that's what every one of the

Christians in the world does they have to bolster their faith It's by faith that we know this you know in your heart of hearts that you don't have a reason to believe it

You wish it to be true You know in your heart of hearts. What what possible logical basis does he have this is pure rhetoric.

It's not debate This is pure rhetoric, you know they talk about how reasonable and rational they are but then why is this kind of form of argumentation the essence of Of their presentation, but faith is a cop -out faith is irresponsible

Anytime you accept an assertion by faith you're admitting that that assertion cannot be accepted on its own merits

You're admitting. There's something wrong with the assertion If faith is valid and anything goes anybody's religion can go because it's by faith.

I could stand up here But I could stand up here and say if you want to be a true atheist you have to have faith

Are you strong enough? Do you have the courage and honesty? Can you do it in spite of the world?

It's mostly religious Now you know some of this may just come from his background.

I mean his background was hardly You know he he likes to say I used to teach exactly what you taught.

It's just not true He knows that it's not true. He knows that he did not present positions that for example

Doug Wilson would present he was shocked at some of Doug's responses. He was not reformed in any way

He clearly was not soundly biblical in any way But the the convert syndrome man, how many times have we heard it think about how many times?

Jerry Matta took so I used to say I used to believe you know and then the

The the Muslims you know I was a Christian Can't even begin to recognize what they're talking about and here are the atheists it doesn't matter

The convert syndrome is the same because remember like I said Dan Barker's just as religious as he ever was

By the way faith is not a valid tool of knowledge unless there is revelation of a sphere outside That of the natural realm and of course if you assume that there isn't from the start then there you go

But of course he's defining faith in an unbiblical fashion as a blind leap not an acceptance the promises of God Not a biblical definition at all

Here's one of the things that the God of Scripture did Elisha was walking to Bethel and as he was going by the way that came forth little children out of the city and they mocked him

He's a prophet of God, right? And he said go up thou bald head go up now bald head And Elisha turned back and looked on them and he cursed them in the name of the

Lord This is out of the Bible now see if you believe this and there came forth two

She -bears out of the wood and tear 42 children of them was that good

That was good Talking to bears now you catch that Kids will be kids

See he ignores the actual context which is rebelling against God's prophet

These are individuals remember the law said you you strike your parents you're to be stoned to the city gate

There was a very high standard for how the society was supposed to function under the law of God and these individuals clearly

Are when it says kids they they assume they're little, you know, six -year -old kids or something like that Just playing around blah blah blah.

They knew who he was. They were probably youths who would be rebellious against God's order amongst people of Israel and It is not

Elisha who's being some mean guy It's God who chose chooses the way of punishment and he ignores all of that You don't you don't want any context or anything like that.

You don't want anything about The the the order of God in a society. No, no, no, no

No we want to ignore all that and just throw it out there and make it sound like Elisha's big bad meaning

God's big bad meaning about a bunch of little kids who were just playing marbles and they're innocent and blah blah blah blah and of course there is no such thing as an innocent child to begin with When it comes to the judgment of God and if you don't believe that then you need to start wrestling with such things as what

Are called natural disasters and things like that chase down 42 little children one mother can hardly be three, but still

You know Elisha got his feelings hurt because some children were mocking him.

What if what if some kids were mocking you came up to your church? Oh, no, hey preacher preacher man, you know making fun of you

Would you turn around and point to them and look at them and curse them in the name of the Lord and have them killed By bears you wouldn't do that.

You're nicer than God In lamentations, it says out of the mouth of the most high proceeded the not evil and good

Thus sayeth the Lord in Jeremiah behold. I framed evil against you and devise a device against you

In Hosea God is angry at Samaria. He said I am the Lord thy God Samaria will become desolate for she hath rebelled against her

God They shall fall by the sword their infants shall be dashed in pieces and their women with child shall be ripped up There you go.

Not only is this cruelty by this This mean God, but it's abortion as well.

I mean ripping open pregnant women How many of you think that was a good act from this supposedly good

God declares himself came to send a sword

And I will set family members against each other and if you don't hate your father and your mother you cannot be my disciple

Jesus said that he never talked about family value just to see the

Scripture make it not a reliable objective basis to put anyone's life on tell you what?

I want I want this to I want this to go with Doug's response because I Really felt this was one of the the best replies

That I've heard in debate was Wilson's response to this poem that's about to be read and I felt it really made the point

So I'm gonna go ahead and take our break And then we will be able to pick that up on the other side of the break.

We'll continue to finish up right after this break Today So many stars wrong and true

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Thank you We are listening to the

Doug Wilson Dan Barker debate from 1997 and we're coming up the last few moments of Dan's I guess it's officially called a closing statement

I would think the more modern term rant would describe this particular venting of hatred toward God But it gets better.

He's now going to read a poem and he's obviously going for the emotional direction here and I'm just gonna let

Doug respond because I think it was very very well done.

Let's listen He wrote a poem about his mother who died in 1976 in the poem is called

Gertrude is very short. It's just four sentences. I Wish that all the people who peddled

God could watch my mother die To see the skin and gristle weighing in at 79 every stubborn pound of flesh a small death.

I Wish the people who peddled God could see her young Lovely and gardens and beautiful in kitchens and could watch the hand of God Slowly twisting her knees and fingers telling gnarled and nodded settling in for 30 years of pain

I Wish the people who peddled God could see the lightning of his cancer stabbing her that small frame tensing at every shock

Her sweet contralto scratchy with the Lord's infection. So I want to die.

I Wish I had them gathered around those preachers popes rabbis imams priests

Every pious shill on God's payroll and I would call the sheets from my mother's brittle body

And they would fall on their knees at her bedside To be forgiven all

I speak as an old Puritan preacher said that's never sure to speak again a dying man

To dying men holiness of the one who made both you and me

Now in saying this I want to Conclude my remark not do something if there is no

God that's fallen corrupt greedy what we see in the newspapers around us system of morality

We have a God who is good if we don't have a God who is good systems of morality

If we don't have a good God all we have our voices They're saying this know that know the other thing and some people want to Blow people up and other people want to prevent people from blowing people up and everybody all their

God spoke I even I and he sounded bombastic to him The thought came to mind who does who does

God think he is? Well, we have to understand in this poem about this man's

And what happened to his mother? he was outraged for no reason because of the word of faith of the word of the preachers if the

Spoken to people who put a loved one direction of the dead

I spoke to them of hope But in your system, mr Barker regions that the

Gentiles are without God and that despair and that anguish was very clearly evident in the poem you read

Now what he did was he lashed out against those who did have hope simply a series of natural chemical processes

He points to the the pain racked skin of his mother, but that is just stuff

That's just a matter There's no image of God there. Why is he so upset? The image of God look what he's look what he's saying.

He says when he speaks. He says I defy God I hate this faith. I hate all this stuff, but look where he's standing outraged by death

Raged and offended by death if all we are our complex meta chemical processes stumbling our way down the stairs

If there is no God, that's what we are But this indignation this fierce ethical and moral indignation that these men have and in which they used to rail against God This indignation is borrowed

Sitting in the lap of his father and in order to slap the face of his father He has to sit on his lap to do it unless he sits up unless he sits on his lap.

He can't reach in order to be offended with God for his Cruelties for his dispensations the things that he

Hands out to us in order to be offended by his cruelties. We have to have a standard of cruelty

We have to say there's an absolute fixed standard of cruelty, which if God doesn't measure up to he's cruel

Me Wilson. Who are you Wilson? Ugly bag of mostly water

Registered that offense at all because mr. Barker contrary to his protests bears the image of God.

He wishes he didn't but he does It's inescapable, there's no way there's nowhere we can turn there's nowhere we can go where we cease being what

God has made us God spoke and the world came into existence God said let it be and there it was and God fashioned

Adam from the dust of the ground Christians found in the

Garden of Eden when the serpent came and insinuated the first debate He said have

God said Is God's Word reliable Let's bring God's Word into the court of human reason.

Let's evaluate his claims. Let's see if this case holds up Let's test the evidence.

He said stay away from that tree. Let's check it out Let's examine the evidence.

Let's let's go into court Let's settle this once and for all and we did settle it once and for all and God in his kindness sent a second

Adam the Lord Jesus Christ Who died on the cross according to the scriptures who was buried raised from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures

He ascended into heaven He sent his Holy Spirit and at the end of human history is going to come and judge the quick and the dead

And when he appears he is going to destroy death Because death is an enemy.

It's not a natural process. It's an enemy now I want you to understand that my opponent and this is an illustrative illustration of what has happened all throughout this debate

What he has done is he has exhibited his out that there's just a chemical process

What was he standing on his outrage against death? He says that cruelty is just Adam's banging around He says everything is just matter, but then he registers outrage against cruelty

That's what he's standing on whenever he appeals to something that cannot be derived by good and necessary Consequence from the premises that he's articulated.

He's borrowing from the Christian worldview in order to make his case Now this is

Absolutely fundamental we have to understand this atheism does not stand on its own and by atheism

I mean the defiant statement that there is no God as well as the version of atheism that mr.

Barker alluded to where you have simply said there is no case for God Which I would prefer to call a sophisticated form of agnosticism.

I think it's a better name for it than atheism But when someone who's a dogmatic agnostic or an atheist when they say there is no

God They have not just made their own statement. They've not just spoken their own position, but they have been assuming things

Quietly as they do so If we are the end result of a blind

Mechanistic process of evolution where we scrabbled our way up from the primordial goo and here we are

Banging into each other sometimes happily sometimes with tragedy However, we feel we just realized that all these are a random neuron firings in our heads and our heads are not much

And we have no be no basis for trusting what's going on in our heads if all this is true And no reason for assuming that our heads have neurons firing in them all of it self -destructs and yet We remain men and women who bear the image of God we cannot escape the world

God put us in Now we are having this debate because of that sin in the Garden of Eden We're having this debate because we rebelled against the most time

Because that was just really good He remained under control that the temptation and I know the temptation believe me

I do when you when your opponent has put forward an

Emotional case Not necessarily an accurate case. Not necessarily a truthful case, but he's sent he's put forth an emotional case

You're impacted by that and you want to try to capture that yourself and So in that in that situation sometimes you don't think as clearly as you could otherwise but mr.

Wilson remained focused and Did exactly what I needed to do and that is he took that expression of Anger at death and said why are you complaining on your grounds?

Why are you raging against death? You just proved my point You your closing statement proved my point for me and you may not have heard it and it you know you you have to look at someone like Dan Barker who's a member of Mensa and all these high -end intellectual societies, you know genius and all that stuff and you have to go how can you not hear that and When you when you go back through Romans 1 and you think about the impact of sin upon the mind

You you have your answers to that But unfortunately many in the evangelical world today don't have a high enough view of Romans 1

Or its teachings on those subjects to to see that and so they just go wow If a really smart man doesn't see that then and maybe

I'm wrong about this and etc, etc, etc Well, I hope that that was worthwhile for you to listen along with us to that particular debate

I found it to be a very very good myself another Shifting gears here, but not a whole lot.

I was looking at my RSS feeds this morning Which is how I get my news. I'll be perfectly honest with you.

I don't care even if it's Fox listening to unregenerate people

Spinning the news. I mean, there's obviously certain Outlets, I can't even listen to without wanting to throw something, you know through the television screen

Because there are just so few journalists left to actually just report facts but So I use

RSS feeds and of course, you're still reading journalists at that point. But at least you Can be a little more calm while you're reading it skip things over.

I guess I ran across this article this morning and it just again illustrates for me the utter degradation of Western society

American society in this situation Here's the the article iron chef cat

Cora and her lesbian partner both pregnant the iron chef and her wife

Both have buns in their ovens That's what the this is Fox News, by the way

Think for just a moment and her wife Her wife that's an oxymoron

Those that's the wrong pronoun You can't have two wives Does that make cat

Cora the husband? I? Mean you have a husband you have a wife. This is the meaning of language

But when a society has become so degraded that language itself no longer has meaning

Its its future is dark and dim let me assure you The iron chef and her wife both have buns in her ovens cat

Cora star of Food Network's iron chef America Which I can honestly tell you I have never seen

Announced Tuesday that she was four and a half months pregnant with a boy. Oh Great a boy who will have no father.

I consider that child abuse to I mean, what's the difference between doing that and Just going and knocking off the dad shooting the dad after the after the child is is is

Impregnated the woman's impregnated with child why not just shoot the dad before the I mean just get rid of him You're one of the things that would be a tragedy of a man dying before his wife gives birth to a child

Would be that the child will be bereft of his father. That's something we all recognize except in these situations

Where that's no longer relevant. Oh, well, he'll have two mommies That's not how we were created.

That is an abuse of a child That is forcing a child from the start. Well, what about single single mothers?

What about when tragedy happens? Well, that's when families are supposed to come together and uncles and grandparents and things like that are supposed to fill in That's where they're supposed to have that family situation you see

But we've lost that since we don't honor marriage. We don't honor family In our society, it's just all me myself and I so It continues on but this is where it gets interesting

Cora's partner Jennifer with whom she already has two sons. No, she doesn't

When you say with whom you're talking about someone who? Impregnates you that's that's the father, but there is no father here.

So she doesn't have two sons There's already two boys in this abusive relationship Cora's partner

Jennifer with whom she already has two sons is also pregnant and due in April three months before Cora Jennifer and I are thrilled to go through the wonderful experience of pregnancy together

We started the in vitro process five years ago said Cora who's due in July this has been a miracle for us and will now have four beautiful children and End quote, but we're not done it gets even more interesting you want some more perversion here it comes

Cora is carrying Jennifer's biological child and Their second child now 23 months old was conceived using

Cora's egg But carried by Jennifer in Jennifer's current pregnancy both women's embryos were implanted

So they don't know who the biological mother is and they say they don't plan on doing

DNA testing to find out The same anonymous sperm donor.

There's daddy anonymous sperm donor Was used for all four pregnancies making all four kids biologically related and the last line of the story and You thought your family life was complicated.

What can you say? to this kind of Scientifically driven perversion of human life

Absolute disrespect for marriage fatherhood motherhood disrespect for the children disrespect for creation and We wonder why

God's wrath is coming upon the society We not only murder unborn children

But we engage in this and then you reward people by giving them hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars

Because they have their own TV show God will not be mocked

God will not be mocked and When people look around you see what this society has moved so far from where it once was that when in the past in The past when

God's wrath came upon a nation they would recognize it for what it is but you see we live in a society of naturalistic materialists like Dan Barker and They may not have the hatred of God the the focused hatred of God that someone like Dan Barker has

But they are living in hatred toward God and ignoring his existence ignoring his law even though it's written written right there all around them there the evidence of his being is right there and So Since these people have been raised as naturalistic materialists

They just ascribe to simple chance and natural processes those things that God brings into a

Society to demonstrate his displeasure and his wrath against their behavior. They just don't see it.

They ascribe it to other things We're just so wise now. You see we we know that You know when an economy collapses, it's just just economic reasons

It's just you know, we just need to tweak here and tweak there and everything will be fine there's there's no there's nothing else really involved and natural disasters are just that's just natural just the way it is you see and We just go on merrily to our utter destruction in the process it is truly amazing to to read this kind of stuff and to Her wife, ah

If See what's happened is this has been done slowly enough that you you you hear it you get exposed with when you first encounter it you you're offended and you you reject it, but when it happens over and over and over and over again

You become numb over time you become apathetic as I know well And of course you hear people saying in regards like proposition 8 in California And here was a 201 or something like that 102 here in Arizona The fact the matter is

While we can be thankful that those passed Let's be honest unless God is merciful to this nation.

They will both be overturned and in the not -too -distant future because these folks aren't going to give up and They themselves point out that the next generation when they pull the next generation the next generation has significantly less concern about fundamental things like family and Morality and right and wrong and history and culture and all the rest of stuff

It's the iPod generation the me -me -me generation and they don't realize that they're walking down the road to destruction

Isn't California Supreme Court currently looking at property right now? Yeah. Yep. They are and I said when it passed

I said they're not gonna let the stand the the will the people will not be allowed to stand in this situation It just it it can't they won't allow it

You do not have a representative democracy in the United States any longer. You have an oligarchy you have the few who believe that they are wise enough to tell the many what to do and unfortunately, the many are becoming less and less aware of History and Hence are much more willing to repeat the errors of history

I was listening you would have absolutely jumped out a window if you had heard this but Sean Hannity was interviewing a guy on the street and He was he was defending that this guy was defending the idea of giving other people's money to other people who need it and So so handy said so would you say that you're this would be a good summary of your position?

to each Americans need as he has need and from each American as he has capacity and The guy goes yeah.

Yeah, and who'd you vote for Barack? Now does that man have any idea that he just quoted

Marx, of course, he doesn't know that because no one knows who Marx was They have they have no knowledge of socialism.

That sounds good. I want to be social isn't Twitter a social network So socialism must be good. I mean how many you go that's crazy

Stop and think for a second how many people would reason exactly that way? Exactly that way because the next generation doesn't read

It has the attention span of a fly It just flits from one thing to the next and that's how this type of stuff happens well

Anyway, uh fascinating stuff in the program today And let's just hope that we can still be around on Thursday for the next program

Don't know we'll be talking about then but hey, I'm riding this afternoon So maybe I'll hear something that we can talk about then who knows.

We'll see you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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