Santa, Trees, and other traditions- Laborers' Podcast #santa #christmas #christmastrees

Welcome to the Laborers Podcast. Tonight we're going to be talking about Christmas, Santa Claus, and other Christmas traditions. What do you think about it?

Stay with us. Welcome to the Laborers Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now let's join our laborers for tonight's.

Opening Thoughts on Christmas and the Annual Debate

Broadcast. What's up guys? What's up? I look at that little clip in the intro and it just it reminds me of all the great conversations that we've had thus far in the Laborers Podcast and I'm thankful the Lord has brought all you guys in my life and I pray that it will be an encouragement and help to to others and the Lord will use this this gathering how he sees fit.

But are you guys doing well? Doing good? Doing well. Good. How are you doing? Go ahead and answer that first. Well, I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I want to say Merry Christmas but also I don't know at the end I may be being pagan.

I don't know. You're a heretic.

Oh man. So full disclosure. I haven't watched all of Keith Foskey's his dissertation on this the other day. I was watching part of it and then somebody called and I was watching it on my phone. And if anybody ever watches YouTube on your phone you know how that goes when the phone rings.

You know when the phone rings. I don't know where I'm I don't know where I left off at. So I'm not sure how much of this is a rehash or how much is gonna be contradictory. I'm glad.

That you brought that up. I've listened to several different things and so I forgot some and I remember others so it may be but I did want to. I'm glad you brought that up because I did want to bring up his video.

One of our fellow laborers Keith Foskey he is he did recently or this week he posted a video on Christmas and I think the title of it is Christmas Pagan or Christmas is not pagan. I think that's what it is.

Yes. And so that was a great conversation. I enjoyed it and so go watch that video and this will just be hopefully compliment compliment it will compliment his video. He did say in our chat that he he had hoped to be with us tonight but he's got some sick children.

So pray for his family. Listen. So I I don't know if this is gonna get Keith in trouble or not but Matthew Henson he was one of the guys that was doing the video with Keith and he gave me and a couple other guys the heads up that that's what they were doing.

He was like this is what we're doing. Please don't leak it until Keith publishes it. So I was already getting ready and I have to say I have to strongly strongly disagree with Keith on everything that they said.

No I'm just kidding. I'll say you know my thoughts and I to be honest with you I haven't even finished the whole video because I listen to it while I'm working and so sometimes if I got to do things at work I got a positive so I haven't been able to finish it off but I thought it was so far a good conversation.

I do. I'm probably gonna you know agree with some things and maybe put some caveat into a couple of things. I did want to ask has nothing to do with our conversation tonight at the intro video. The intro video for the laborers podcast.

Who is that guy that does the voice.

That's an amazing radio voice. It's a friend of Tyler's isn't it? No we had a.

Gentleman who was at one point a member of the the Truth and Love Network group he was in our chat he had to he had to leave but in his time with us he had a friend and so when we set up the initial video with the voiceover we we wrote out this little that the little thing there and he had his friend to record it and he graciously at no cost allowed us to use it.

So yeah totally grateful for for that opportunity and he does the outro video. Yeah no it's great great talent.

Actually I wish I had a voice like that. No absolutely not even close. All right.

Sorry. That's okay. I guess I can start out with this question. Um is it happens every year maybe to different degrees. Like I know one year it was huge thinking about going to your your local shopping center and whether the cashiers said Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays.

I mean it was huge one year and so it seems like we have this this conversation every year. Is it. Do you think it's gonna be something that we ever settle or we're gonna have this conversation every year.

The Christian perspective on Christmas and its traditions and what what should we think about it? Are you asking if people are.

Christmas, Paganism, and the Regulative Principle of Worship

Ever gonna stop arguing about something because the short answer is no they're.

Always gonna argue about something. Yeah as long as we have different different opinions different denominations it's always gonna exist right? As long as.

People exist. There's gonna be something to disagree with. There's gonna be no end to. I mean there'll be no end to it. That's true. I think that we're as.

Christians way past the whole Merry Christmas versus Happy Holidays thing. I think we're at the point where we have bigger things to worry about. I'm not saying that I like the whole Happy Holidays replacing Merry Christmas.

I would rather say Merry Christmas because that's what we're celebrating. But you know there are so many bigger problems right now for Christianity that you know it's kind of like if you're in the middle of a battle.

Right. And you have this. You're in a fort I guess and and there's this whole army coming at you and there's this one guy just saying but listen like we need to clean the barracks because it's dirty right now.

You know. It's like okay. Sure that's important dude. But like there's this whole army coming at us right now. How about we focus on that. Like you know it we have my priorities. Yes absolutely exactly.

I think we have to start with what is the point of Christmas in the first place. It's not merely saying Merry Christmas or you know versus Happy Holidays is yeah what are we celebrating. Right. We got to start with that.

And whether you believe that Christmas is pagan or not. Right. Well I'm sure we'll get into that as well. But whether you believe Christmas is pagan or not historically it's been a holiday that has been celebrated by Christmas by Christians.

Whether they took it from paganism. Whatever. And so I think we have.

To start the conversation there what is the point of all this. Yeah. Well and it didn't it didn't dawn on me. And I'm only I'm saying this because it's on my mind and I don't want to lose track. And I don't want to lose track of your question either.

But I wish I would have thought about this question prior to the podcast because I would have wanted to do more research on it. But even even that word Christmas does it come from the Catholic perspective.

Is that it's. Or the origins. And so how do we how are we to view that from a Protestant perspective. Because we're we're talking about is Christmas pagan. Well the word itself as Christ mass. Yeah Catholic origins.

So how do we how do we deal with that. I mean decent questions to ponder. So listen. I'll just say this in Spanish.

It's not really a problem because it's Navidad which you guys know what that means nativity so we just call Christmas nativity so we don't call it. You know Misa would be mass in Spanish we don't call it Misa de Cristo although I guess if you're Roman Catholic you could.

But ironically enough Latins who tend to be more Roman Catholic they don't call it. They don't tend to call it Misa de Cristo which is the literal translation of Christmas. They call it Navidad which is nativity.

So just for my people out there that don't like Christ mass maybe.

Nativity could be an option just saying right. So what was your question prior to that. Can you restate your question. My question. Yeah I don't think I had one.

Did it look. I. I don't know. I'm all over the place. That's what I do. Go ahead. I.

Defer to big John. He only thing I want to talk about. Not until you. What it is. We'll wait on that. Okay we gotta work our way into the fist. Fist fight. The fist fight. Fine. Then is Christmas. Pagan.

I would say no. I mean not as a whole there's there's several things that we would we not necessarily observe from from what the Catholic Church may have began or may have took place in that wasn't completely altogether wrong.

You know I mean for instance I've read a historical document that was secular in its origin. It said that the cross that we got in our church is incorrect that the Romans used something to look more like an X but I didn't see people running around throwing their crosses away and and grabbing X's and putting around their neck.

You know you know I don't know exactly what a Roman cross that Jesus hung on would have looked like. But historically and culturally whenever I see a cross I know that it points to Christ and to the payment for sin that happened on that cross.

And ultimately more important to me than whatever kind of device look what the device looked like that Christ hung on whenever he gave up the ghost. So similar to we refer to Jesus Christ as Jesus in Spanish Jesus and in Jewish dialect it's a yeshiva.

Yes. Well well we know that we're talking about the same one whenever we use the name Jesus. So I I think if you're if you want to you can wind up becoming so contrary that you can't find common ground with anybody.

Or you can become so compromising that you don't find anything to to ever stand apart from the rest of the world in we talk perpetually on this podcast about staying out of ditches on either side of the road.

Right. I think if you're not careful then that's what you're wind up doing. You'll wind up saying that because Catholics began celebrating Christmas on December 25th that that somehow another makes it entirely altogether wrong.

And we must throw away the entire thing. Right. And if that's if that's your convictions and you don't want to celebrate Christmas on the 25th. If you don't want to put a tree in your home if you don't want to hang a wreath on your door like I look I'll be honest with you.

I hate lights me hang them on the house wasn't happy about it the whole time I done it. I was even like trying to find good biblical arguments is to say look my home. This is somehow another you know bringing shame on the way I do it.

But you know she didn't believe me because there was not enough compassion in my.

Voice when I said it so I think I got a solution for you. Rob. Are you familiar with the regular principle of worship. Yes okay so I I'm just trying to think of like what what we're gonna talk about Christmas here right.

And I'm thinking okay well some people object because of paganism. Some people object because they follow the regulative principle of worship. To a tee. Hey John do you know what that is we call. I call it RPW.

Just quicker I think.

What you're referring to is whether something is completely described in scripture as being authoritative in the only form or whether things aren't said at all and whether you use grace in them. Is that yeah yeah.

So there's there's the.

Regulative principle of worship which basically says whatever is not explicitly prescribed in scripture should not be practiced as part of our worship to God. And then there the opposite of that would be the normative principle of worship which says whatever is not explicitly forbidden forbidden in scripture thank you can be practiced as part of our worship to God.

So for your wife just say honey I am now following the regular principle of worship.

Nothing about lights. And so she's smart man. She made me get her my electric guitars. I mean I bought them for just just for church. I don't play them anywhere but church. And and the next thing you know man I'm out a really sweet strat a silver sky and a nice PRS custom 24.

And I mean you know em lights ain't gonna be up that long. I'll take them down here in a couple weeks. It's no big deal. I had another solution for you but oh I'm sorry.

Since you already given up I was gonna say you know when she tells you to get rid of your guitars you could be like well honey you know it's it's not really.

A lie it's a principle. I'm glad you I'm glad you kind of started with that question. Is Christmas. Pagan. I felt like I had some some decent thoughts on that as I was looking some things up and I do apologize full disclosure I'm not a memory dates and history and all those things.

So please forgive me but going back to the just the word Christmas you know there was a point where the Catholic Church was not the Catholic Church that we know today. The Catholic basically just meant what it still does.

Lowercase C means universal. Right. And so that's basically what it was. It wasn't necessarily the Roman Catholic Church so we would adhere to and be okay with you know some of those early creeds that they had and so I would want to know you know when they started using that with that word you know Christmas did it.

Was it more Roman Catholic or was it prior to that when it was the you know more universal Church. But I was thinking as I was going through the different arguments for Christmas and the different traditions.

You have decent arguments on both sides talking about the the date of when Jesus was born Christmas trees Santa Claus celebrating Christmas. You have decent arguments on both sides and it made me reflect on this idea of Noah and the ark.

You go to all the different traditions or geographical locations so like the Chinese and I've heard people talk about how the Chinese and their lettering is the word for I I can't recall it's been so long since I've heard it before but it's it's a boat a symbol for a boat and and eight people is is the word for something but so they have a tradition of Noah and the ark and the flood.

They have a flood tradition in China and you have a flood tradition in other cultures in other areas of the world and so that's that's kind of how it came to me as I was listening to traditions of Santa Claus because different regions had different ideas of Santa Claus.

I mean there were similarities but there were differences and you you've got course one of the arguments is Christians replace the the Saturnalia holiday or with Christmas and then what is it Easter and the resurrection.

You've got people say that we we stole it from the pagans who celebrate Horus and all these other you know false gods. But in reality you know all these different traditions and all around the world have similarities and their origin seems to stem from Christianity.

And so instead of Christianity stealing or borrowing from earlier religions pre-christian they like to say pre-christian religions. It seems like because these traditions have are so similar and they're so widespread in all across the world.

It seems like they all originate the the flood story the story of the resurrection the story of Christ's birth the celebration of Christmas. They're all around the world maybe different in some ways similar in other ways.

But they're all around the world that makes sense doesn't it. Yeah it makes sense. I mean the first point of view the flood was.

Worldwide right. So if you choose to not believe that everyone died in a flood save those that were on the ark it's reasonable to assume that every I said we're talking from a secularist point of view that every remaining civilization would have had a story of a worldwide flood if in fact was worldwide.

And from our point of view the Christian point of view we know that every living breathing person that's alive today is a descendant from one of those creature or one of those people I should say that was on that boat right.

So they would have told their kids and their grandkids and blah blah blah until you get to where we are today either way one way or another however you want however you cut that cake it's only reasonable to assume this is why the story of the flood is.

Worldwide right. And the same will be true for like I said these these other.

Flood Traditions, Shared Origins, and the Spread of Christian Symbols

Events in Christian history. Yeah. So I mean I know the whole Saturnalia thing that they that that folks talk about with Christmas. But one of the one of the things I did catch from from Foskey's podcast the other day was why are we so quick to attribute things to the world whenever it's quite possible that the world will steal them from the church.

Right. It's just as likely that the pagans were mocking something that they saw the believers doing or the Jewish people before the church began. And I don't understand I don't understand why we as a people are so quick to take something away from the church and give it to the world.

And it's weird. It's always been weird to me why we just assume it that way right. Folks try to defend biblical creationism by harmonizing it with science for some reason right. Which is stupid. Right.

That's like that's like knowing the truth and then trying to convince somebody how a lie can somehow another be bent by the I don't know it just don't make any sense to me right. Why would you start with what you know and then just make up something you can't you can't prove.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys.

Seen that meme where like there's this this Spanish Chad guy looking real strong showing up like at an Aztec temple and saying the sacrifices will stop. Have you guys seen that me. You haven't. Okay. So basically the idea is like because he's bringing Christianity to to the Aztecs to the pagans.

It's like okay. Well the sacrifices are gonna stop. You know. Yeah. And so even if it were true right even if it were true that we took the the pagan celebration of Saturnalia and replaced it with Christmas.

So what. You know what I mean. So what. Even if that were true I don't think it's true. But even if it were true who cares. Like it's idolatry. Let's get rid of the idol. Let's replace it with something awesome.

You know. And biblical Christ is King. Submit. Sorry. And you know there is an argument to be had about whether Christ was born around around December 25th. I don't think you can really make an argument that he was born for sure on December 25th.

I forget the details of how it is it has to do with like you know when the angels came to the shepherds that was during a time when you know they would have been out at pasture. Right. Taking their flock to the pastures.

And then there's the whole timing of like when Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist and all that. So you know maybe there's a case there but I would say even if it wasn't December 25th let's say it was in July.

All right Christmas supposed to be in July. Let's say that that were true Christmas in July. Sure. Yeah. Exactly. Let's say that were the case. It's okay to celebrate a birthday. You know when we don't know exactly when it was you know I remember an uncle of mine who they didn't know even what year exactly he was born.

So they gave him a year and the date and he was hey he was born I think was like 1930 January 10th or January 15th or something like that. They don't know if that was true or not. But you know that's how old he looks like he's about 70.

That's that. Yeah. Exactly I mean he already passed away. He was like a great uncle but but you know back then people didn't always go to the hospital when they had babies and things like that and so they didn't keep track.

But you know it's okay. You know we celebrate his birthday on January 10th or 15th and that's okay. You know we can do the same thing with Jesus. We want to celebrate his birthday. I was thinking about something.

Oh okay so a pastor of mine actually told me something that was pretty interesting. I want to see what you guys think about this. He was saying you know I have no problem with with like people in general celebrating Christmas.

I don't know if we should be observing it as a church because he he does hold to the regular principle of worship and so he says yeah me and my wife you know we'll we'll put up little decorations or whatever around our house but we really just try to focus on Christ.

But one thing that he was saying is even though we should celebrate the coming of the King absolutely he says some people missed the point or the part that is actually sad about it which was pretty interesting.

He says think about Almighty God condescending down to us abandoning all of his worship his comforts all of all he had all of his glory on in heaven and coming down as a mere human being to which is infinitely beneath him.

You know he was saying that's not. That's not joyful. That's not good. That's that's sad. Right. We should be sad that that's what it took. And so he was saying like even though we can celebrate right that we've been redeemed and we glorify him and give him thanks for coming at the same time.

Not enough. People appreciate how sad that truly was.

What do you guys think about that. I think that's great. I mean that's that's in keeping in in line with the gospel. You know we celebrate we celebrate the blood that was shared to cover our sin. And that doesn't sound at all like something that we should be gathered around to celebrate.

But if it wasn't for that where would we be. Right right now. Obviously the resurrection is what seals salvation. But I mean God had to die. And and that still trips me up. You know I mean he ever pondered on it much.

I mean that that the king of glory the prince of life had to die in order for there to be salvation so he can speak the world and everything in it into existence. But in order to set man right with himself he had to die.

You know that's a that's an unbelievably tall task. Right. And so yeah I mean I can. That fits with the gospel picture that that man celebrates that God came down and we should because it was. You know salvation is unattainable without him.

But uh from his point of view that's why it's referred to as a sacrifice. You know you know I thought I think the thoughts of.

This pastors are very helpful because it goes back to what John was talking about how our group the minds of our group is to stay away from the ditches and to remain balanced biblically. And so we want to do that in all your areas.

And the thoughts from this pastor helps keep us balanced at Christmas. And we we've done in other places. You know we talk about the beauty of the cross. The beauty of the cross. Yeah. There's beauty in the cross because of God's amazing grace and is glorious loving kindness to us.

But on the other hand it shows us our sin. Yeah. And why Christ had to be nailed on the cross. Yeah. And it shows us the wrath of God. And you talk about the law in the gospel like John was talking about.

We've got to know our sin. We got to know the state of our depravity. And then we we see the cure. We see God's grace in his through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. And so I think it's a beautiful thought to keep us balanced at Christmas.

The the humility of Christ to come down even if the Lord says. And in Scripture that it was at the right time. But but imagine the time that he did live in being born in us in a stable. Yeah. Most the animals.

Yeah. He did not live in a palace. It was it was a hard life. Yes they had to walk everywhere. I mean it was. I can't imagine the difficulty living that life. Yeah. He lived it you know for the glory of God.

But to save us. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think.

It's tremendously helpful. I don't know if you guys think about this ever but I think about like when I was younger you know and I used to hear Bible stories like the the Israelites complaining and wanted to go back to Egypt after they had left right.

And I'm like man how can they be so stupid. Or like you know when you read about like people that were you know a week before celebrating Jesus is coming triumphantly into Jerusalem on the donkey saying Hosanna Hosanna in the highest.

And then like you know a few days later they're like saying crucify him. I was like man these guys are idiots. Like I would have done so well if I had been in biblical times. And then as I've matured and grown I'm like no no I would have been the first one to complain.

I would have been the first one saying crucify him. It was me right. It was me that put him on that cross. And when I think about that you know might as well have I know it was physically me but but it might as well have been me every time I sin right every time we said I don't know if you guys have thought about this.

But I thought every time I sin I'm nailing him to the cross all over again in a sense right I'm basically spitting in his face and saying I don't care what you did for me. I'm going to do what I want to do and that just man like it it crushes me.

You know I know this nothing to do with the conversation but you guys are it says we're talking about the the the solemnness of him coming down you know it's like he had to and I was the reason right.

Like I'm I'm the cause of it. And he didn't he didn't have to in the sense that he didn't owe us anything but it was the only way that we could be saved you know. So that's I mean man crushes you like hold him by my tears.

It's it's you know it's pray. I mean praise him praise him. That's all I can say praise him. Because man I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it. So anyway I'm sorry. Well no I think it's definitely part of.

This conversation because Christmas has become so commercialized. Yeah. You know in our hearts and in our homes it can be about so many other things. Yeah. But when we have that balanced perspective that you're talking about and remember our sin remember why he had to come.

Boy it puts it in perspective and it helps us to remember while we celebrate. To worship in it. To worship. Yes. Yeah yeah.

I think that if we were to take the word Christmas if I understand right masses means worship right. I clearly not a linguistic but I I'm not sure I I.

Thought mass meant like sacrifice to the not. Hmm. I can't I can't answer I guess.

In my in my opinion whenever people Catholics say they're going to mass it's like M A S S E. I thought that was their worship service. It is I could be wrong and the first time it was used it was it was spelled like that.

It wasn't filled with just M A S at the end however you know whether it's well that's what mass means or not. What we should what okay to be saying what we should be doing. What we should be doing is worshiping Christ and everything that we do.

Right. We should be worshiping Christ truthfully with everything your hand finds to do. You should be doing it. The glory of God you should have. You should have worship in your mind whenever you're working.

You should have worship in your mind whenever you're raising your children. You know I know that we we don't do that because we're fallible and there's times we get in our own way. I'm not trying to to paint some picture of sinless perfection but what I am trying to say is that the way that we combat the world's view of Christmas which is the commercialization of this holiday season.

Right. That's what you hear all the time is to worship God in it and to teach our children to do the same. Let's teach our children. So yeah I mean the way I way I approached it and I'm gonna throw a disclaimer out there if there's children watching that you are teaching your children about the large man in the red suit I give you an opportunity to cover their ears.

We never taught our children about Santa Claus. And this before I was a Christian I didn't want my children to be lied to. I did. I never wanted to set a a precedent of when it's okay to lie. So and this is this is pre-salvation.

And me my wife talking. I said I said we're not gonna do Santa Claus in the Jones house. And she said well I want the kids to have presents. So I just said we'll buy them presents. We'll buy them presents if you don't care buy them all the presents.

You won't wrap and put them under the trees put their name on it. And so that's what we did. And we never told them who they were from. We just wrote who they were to and that you know what they couldn't have cared less where they came from.

Right. I never seen one time them saying who am I supposed to thank for this. They hadn't present. I said hey thank you thank you daddy thank you mom. I said you're welcome baby. And that's and that's in.

And didn't didn't bring it up now. They heard about Santa Claus from television and from their friends and stuff like that you know. But whenever they come home they're like what's up with us. I got some people stupid maybe just just roll with that roll off your back.

You know. She said okay. And they I you only make things that way. If you give them the power to be that way. Yeah if you spend time running around trying to supersede every everything the world does you're going to be running around being known by what you're against instead of what you're for.

If you just tell them what Christmas is. This is when we celebrate the birth of our Lord. Do we know if he was born today. Nope. But since the rest of the world is going to take this time to observe Jesus's birth.

Let's teach you about Jesus's birth and what it means and why we celebrate. So we celebrate because we needed a Savior. Because of our sin. Because of because of the death sentence that was on all man God had to step in and God stepped in.

So let's praise him in it. Right. Let's tell the story. Let's make sure that we don't forget what happened. Let's not. Let's go ahead and give give praise. And and and honor words. Do. And let's let's talk about Mary and Joseph in this time about how Joseph decided to be a godly man.

And listen to the to the unctions of the Lord. Let's talk about how Mary was supposed to be favored among other women according to Elizabeth's testimony while we're at it talk about Elizabeth. Let's talk about John the Baptist.

Right. You don't have to talk about elves at a North Pole. There's so much other stuff that you can that you can spend your time talking about and find such wisdom in it and find such a growth in it. That and when they're when the kids are little truthfully they don't really care what you're gonna say to something you can't get so much information in their little minds before they're full anyway in 15 or 20 minutes and it's like all.

Right. Let's open presents. You know. Let's see some breakfast. Let's open some presents. Let's play if it. Let's play if whatever it was. I spent all night putting together. Yeah. That's a lot. I'm sorry I have a question for you guys is.

It wrong you know you kind of brought it up already John so I know where you stand but hey you said before you were a believer so maybe you've changed your mind. Is it wrong to tell children that Santa is real in the in the sense that.

Hollywood has made him real or you know just in general. Well there was a fella that was that was they called st. Nicholas right. Oh man you stole my.

Punchline see. I hope you guys my bad I was hoping you guys say yes. White lies.

I mean yeah you're talking about Hollywood version of Santa Tim Tim the tool man. Taylor you know what I mean getting a beard and getting fat. Yeah then that's that's entirely yeah that's entirely fictitious and entirely wrong to try to instill lies in your children.

Well I was hoping you'd say that right.

And Rob would say something similar and then I was gonna say oh I tell my children's Santa's real all the time. Okay. Because he was real because it was you know st. Nick who punched areas in the face.

There you go. Yes come in go for.

It. Yes thank you thanks big John. Violence. Right now what do we do. I got.

Much less to say I don't. I've said all I needed to say. Tell the story. Tell. I want you to tell the story. Why punched him. Well who he punched. Because it's.

Kind of awesome. Okay. So so st. Nicholas was a I guess you could say a saint in the church right. A church father and so you have. I guess you had a blanket on the word. There was a council right. A church council.

I don't. I think it was the council of Nicaea if I'm remembering correctly. And basically there's this guy Arias who's a he's a he was supposedly a Christian. He was a member of the church. I think he was.

He was an elder if I recall correctly. And hmm he basically denied the Trinity right. Like he I don't remember exactly. I'm I wish I had thought about this a little bit more clearly before I started talking because Arias what he had was something called what's called the Aryan heresy right.