WWUTT 645 Q&A From the Foundation of the Bible Project Ascension?

Matthew 25 and the Question of Predestination in Judgment

If God made hell for the devil and his angels, does that mean he didn't predestine anyone to go there? Did God tell Israel to commit genocide in Joshua? And what did Jesus mean when he said he has not yet ascended to the Father?

The answer to these questions when we understand the text.

This is when we understand the text, holding firm to the trustworthy word as taught, instructing in sound doctrine, and rebuking those who contradict it. Find all our videos at www .utt .com. Now here's your host, Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, sweetie.

You're welcome. God willing, at this time, I am at ShepCon, and I'm not sick. That's right. Let's pray. So, Mariah was sick last week. Oh, boy. We talked with Kosti about her being puky. Oh, it was so gross.

Then you got sick. Oh, it was so awful. And if there's anybody I'm going to get sick from, it's you. Yeah, you're welcome.

Hey, I tried. I tried to quarantine myself as much as possible.

Yeah, but, I mean, you're most contagious. Aren't you most contagious, like, right before you get sick?

Well, I saw a thing on the internet, because everything on the internet is, you know. It must be trustworthy. It must be. Hey, we're on the internet. Hey, we are. But, anyway, I didn't do any further research, but if memory serves me right from health class, too, that you get exposed to it, and you're actually sick then, even though your body hasn't responded to it.

And then all of your sick symptoms. Are your spotty. You're spotty. It might be spotty.

It might be spotty. Depending on the disease you have. This is very true. And then your body responding to or fighting off the disease is why you're sick. Is what you feel like. What you feel like.

Okay. You need to stay home. Right. Kind of thing. Okay. But, really, yes, you are contagious after you've been exposed and your body hasn't quite fought it off yet. So, yes. Yeah, I don't know that I believe that.

Well, I mean, it does take your body a while before it responds or it starts responding. Yeah. But you don't feel it yet. But I feel terrible. I'm being attacked. My body is not my friend. I've got a virus.

Yeah. Well, it's not fun. When I feel miserable. Well, yes. That's your body fighting it off. I mean, when a person dies of disease, you don't say, well, his body was fighting that disease. No? It just lost.

Well, yes. Some do, unfortunately. Anyway. That was kind of weird. This isn't the health podcast.

No. Stay tuned. I'm just praying that while I'm on this trip is not the time that the disease that you are carrying that has been that has been passed on to me is going to ravage my body while I'm either on an airplane or in a hotel in California.

Oh, that would be so bad.

Don't translate that as hotel California. No.

All right. I am glad that I got it while you were still here. That's true. So I can take care of the kids.

I'm very grateful. You can take two days. Oh, my goodness. I lost a complete day.

You did. I did. I did. I was still talking like it was, you know, I can't. We had Friday and it wasn't Friday.

I cannot ever get Becky to go to bed. And yet she came down and was on the couch at one point. And I went into the kitchen and I turned around and she was gone. Yep. She went up to bed. Yep. It's like, I can't do this.

No. Cannot be around people. Yeah. I tried. And it did not work. But I'm glad to see that you are back up to speed and able to join me for the podcast this week.

I am kind of up to speed at the moment. You're slowly getting there. I'm getting there. That's the thing with the flu. You just have to. You can't just get over it. No. Yeah. And you just have to. Yep.

You just have to do it. And right now it's to the have to. All right.

Well, there is a question that we're going to answer today that is of a more adult nature. Okay. And I'm going to save it for the end of the broadcast. So I'll give a warning and say, okay, here is an adult question that we're going to respond to.

So maybe at that point, if you've got kids in the room, you'll need to say or you'll need to stop the broadcast, listen to it later, because it's not for young ears. Right. Will the outtakes still be there?

Yes. There will still be outtakes. Okay. So you might just fast forward if you have kiddos.

Yeah. I don't know. Perhaps. You probably. Yeah. You probably just want to stop it. Listen to it when you get the chance. You just won't get to share the outtake with the kiddos today. Yeah. Sorry, guys.

So this question was actually asked of someone in our congregation. If you listen to the podcast this past Sunday, we did a Q &A with the elders of our church. We took questions from our congregation and responded to those questions, mostly having to do with the study that we just finished in First Corinthians.

Right. Although there were questions of another theological nature that were asked as well. And so one of those questions, again, was adult in nature, has to do with intimacy between couples, married couples.

And so I wasn't able to respond to that question in a full congregation with children in the room. So I said, I will answer it on the broadcast the next time we do a Q &A. This last Friday was with Kosti, so I had to put it off a week.

And so we're going to do it at the end of this episode today. So I'll give you forewarning and say, here's the adult nature question. That would be the time that maybe you need to turn it off and wait.

Right. Or wait for a time to listen to it when the kids aren't around. So this first question, these first few are fine. The first three questions are good. Everybody can be involved. G-rated. Here we go.

This is from Jack. Hi, Pastor Gabe. I very much appreciate your what ministry as well as watching sermons from your church. I have only within the last three years come to a reformed view of scripture.

A friend of mine recently posed Matthew 25, 41 to me as something of a proof text to refute church reform theology. His contention is if the verse says that hell was prepared for Satan and his fallen angels and there's no mention of unbelievers, then God must not have intended at the foundation of the world for man to be there.

I have my theories on this as I've been searching the scriptures, but would like to hear your commentary on the verse, please. I know you have to be extremely busy, but I would much appreciate an email response when you have the time.

Yes, I am very busy. We were actually recording this before the week starts so that I can head to Shepcon and we're not recording this at the usual time. Right. But Jack, I hope that this answer will be helpful for you.

I certainly have time in the amount of time that we're recording this program to be able to respond. Of course. Okay. So this is Matthew 25. I want to read this in context, starting in verse 31. When the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, come, you who are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me drink.

I was a stranger and you welcomed me. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me. Then the righteous will answer him saying, Lord, when did we see you and welcome you were naked and clothed you?

And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you? And the king will answer them. Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me.

You cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food. I was thirsty and you gave me no drink. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me naked and you did not clothe me.

I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me. Then they will also answer saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?

And then he will answer them saying, truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So Jack's friend is saying that because verse 41 says, depart from me, you cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, therefore it could be argued that God did not prepare hell for people from the foundation of the world.

So though it says to those who are righteous, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, the argument would go that the kingdom of God was prepared for people from the foundation of the world.

But hell was prepared for the devil and his angels from the foundation of the world. Now here's the problem with proof texting. So, you know, just responding to the argument that Jack's friend is presenting.

The problem with proof texting is it's kind of like Jack's friend is putting me in a position to have to disagree with what he's saying. Here's my argument. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels from the foundation of the world.

I don't disagree with that. That's true. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels from the foundation of the world. So then he would say, therefore, heaven was prepared for people from the foundation of the world.

I don't necessarily argue with that either. We were supposed to be eternally with God, but we sinned and then became eternally separated from God until Christ died for his elect and his blood spilled on the cross was an atoning sacrifice for those whom he meant to save for his people, a chosen people that was determined from the foundation of the world.

You could make both arguments from this text because you have it said in Matthew 25 that the king will say to those on his right, come you who are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Right. So you could make a predestination argument and then you could oppose the predestination argument using the text related to hell. So how do we respond to the argument as it's being presented according to the context here in Matthew 25?

You have to go outside Matthew 25. If both persons can make their case from this text, then you're going to have to draw from other texts in order to affirm the belief that you have, according to what the scripture says on predestination, right?

So in Revelation chapter 13, there's actually a passage there that argues for double predestination, meaning that God has predestined whom he's going to save from before the foundation of the world. And he's also therefore decided whom he's going to withhold salvation from and will destroy from before the foundation of the world.

And here's what we have. Revelation 13, five talking about the first beast that has risen up out of the sea. The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for 42 months.

It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling. That is those who dwell in heaven. Also, it was allowed to make war on the saints and conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation.

And all who dwell on the earth will worship it. Everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who was slain, whoever's name was not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world will worship the beast.

Those whose names were written in the book of life from before the foundation of the world will not worship the beast, but instead will worship Christ. This is a passage that argues for double predestination.

So there are certain passages in the Bible that talk about judgment, but don't necessarily present an argument for predestination. Rather, the passage about judgment is probably calling the hearer to repent and follow Christ.

Those passages are true, and those passages must be responded to. It is being presented to you to turn from your sin and worship Christ. Right. Because that's the point of it. Right. That you would worship God.

Right. But then there are other passages, like in Revelation, that give you the whole overarching plan that ultimately salvation is given and predetermined by God so that he gets all the glory. Right.

You have been called to repent, and you're not going to be able to say on the day of judgment, well, you didn't predestine me, God. So this is your fault that I'm being thrown into destruction. Quite frankly, you're not going to be able to say a thing.

He's just going to wipe you out with the breath of his mouth, and that's going to be it. As easily as he's going to snuff out Satan, he can snuff out you. You will have no argument. It was put before you to respond to the gospel, and you didn't respond to it.

There's no one to blame but yourself.

A light bulb just went on. And I think that that might be why people avoid that, avoid Revelation, avoid reading it. Trying to understand Revelation. Yeah.

Yeah. It's too complicated. It shows the overarching plan of redemption, that God has already decided those whom he is going to save, and the promise that is given to us in the text there, that we are going to be delivered from the plight of this world, and those who have rejected God and instead worship the beast and followed the devil, whether they knew they were following the devil or not, they are going to be destroyed.

They are regarded as enemies of God, and they will be cast into eternal destruction. So yes, hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, and those who go there will be the ones who followed the devil and not Christ.

Heaven has been prepared from the foundation of the world for those who did the will of the Father, and that's who gets entrance into the kingdom of God. Those whose sins have been atoned for by the blood of Christ.

You are saved by grace through faith, so turn from your sin and believe in Christ. It was Charles Spurgeon who said that if I find a passage in the Bible where the responsibility is placed upon man to make a decision, that passage is true.

And if I find another passage in the Bible that says that God has predestined this from before the foundation of the world, that passage is true. Right. And it's only my folly that sees that there's some sort of contradiction between those two passages.

So anyway, I hope that was a good answer for you, Jack, and like I said, sometimes you're going to run into those passages where even an Arminian will say, well, this passage is on my side. Right. So you're going to have to actually go outside that particular text in order to defend your position.

The Bible Project, Joshua, and Whether the Conquest Was Genocide

All right, this next question comes from Nathan in the UK, and he says, Pastor Gabe, I really appreciate the videos you make. I'm assuming that you have heard of the Bible Project on YouTube. As they go through each book of the Bible and describe an overview of what's happening in each book, I find they do an excellent job at it.

I agree. Awesome. Those are great videos. Watch the Bible Project on YouTube. It gives you a good systematic layout of what each book is about. Furthermore, there's these neat illustrations that they do as they're explaining the book, and you can actually buy those.

You can purchase those illustrations as like posters. That's neat. So you can buy all 66 books of the Bible and you have 66 posters on your wall. That's a lot of wall space. Wallpaper? Yeah, you can do a whole room up that way if you got a large enough room.

That's awesome. So anyway, Nathan goes on. In Joshua, they ask the question, did God actually initiate genocide by completely wiping out the Canaanites? I always assumed to take those verses literally like Joshua 10, 36 through 39, but they are saying the stories use hyperbole.

Here is the video I was talking about, or you can just search Joshua the Bible Project on YouTube. It's about the six minute mark in the video on what I was talking about. So I sectioned out about two and a half minutes of this video.

I'm going to play it here and then we're going to respond to it. All right.

Now, let's stop for a second because odds are that these stories and the violence in them, they're going to bother you. And if you're a follower of Jesus, you're bound to wonder, like, didn't Jesus say to love your enemies?

Why is God declaring war here? So first, why the Canaanites? The main reasons are actually given earlier in the biblical story is that the culture of the Canaanites had become extremely morally corrupt, especially when it comes to sex.

Go check out Leviticus chapter 18. And they also widely practice child sacrifice. Go see Deuteronomy chapter 12. And so God didn't want these practices to influence Israel. The Canaanites had to go, which raises the second question.

Did God actually command the destruction of all the Canaanites like a genocide? So at first glance, you know, you look at the phrases used in these stories. They totally destroyed them. They left no survivor or anything that breathed.

But when you look a second time more closely, you'll see that these phrases are clearly hyperbole and not literal. So go back to the original command about the Canaanites in Deuteronomy chapter 7. Israel is first told to drive out the Canaanites, but then to totally destroy them.

And then that's followed by commands to not intermarry with them or enter into business deals with them. So you can't marry someone that you've destroyed. I think you get the point. The same idea applies to the stories in Joshua.

Look closely. So for example, we're told in Joshua chapter 10 that Israel left no survivors in the cities of Hebron or Debir, but then later in chapter 15, we see these towns and they're still populated by Canaanites.

And so what we're seeing is that Joshua fits in with other ancient battle accounts by using non-literal hyperbolic language as part of the narrative style. And so the word genocide doesn't actually fit what we see here, especially in light of the stories about the Canaanites who did turn to the God of Israel like Rahab or the Gibeonites.

God was open to those who would turn to Him. The last thing to think about is that these stories mark a unique moment in Israel's history. These battles were limited to the handful of people groups living in the land of Canaan.

With all other nations, Israel was commanded by God to pursue peace. Go read Deuteronomy chapter 20. So the purpose of these battle stories was never to tell you, the reader, to go commit violence in God's name.

Rather, they show God bringing His justice on human evil at a unique moment in history and how He delivered Israel from being annihilated by the Canaanites.

Now the last part of that, I totally agree with. Okay. So this story is not about how you need to go and annihilate somebody. I agree. So don't interpret Joshua that way at all. But there were some aspects about that that were not correct.

And it just kind of had that feel that the narrator was trying to take God off the hook. God doesn't want them to wipe out everybody. See that's hyperbolic language. No, it's pretty clear. God wanted them to utterly destroy them.

And for an example, let's even go outside of Joshua. So just like I gave the response to Jack, sometimes you have to go outside that text to get an understanding. It's a scripture interpreting scripture.

So go to first... To make it more clear. Right. You go to 1 Samuel 15, when Saul fell out of favor with God, Saul was instructed to destroy the Amalekites. And it was supposed to be thorough. Oh, yeah.

1 Samuel 15 3, now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. That's not hyperbole.

It was everything. They were not supposed to spare anyone or anything. Don't take plunder for yourselves. You are supposed to devote it all to destruction. And so what does Saul do? He doesn't devote it all to destruction.

He sees a lot of wealth that is in the camp of the Amalekites. And so he starts to take things for himself. And so what ends up happening, verses 9 and 11, Saul and the people spared a gag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fattened calves and the lambs and all that was good and would not utterly destroy them.

All that was despised and worthless, they devoted to destruction. The word of the Lord came to Samuel, I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.

This is God saying, I told him to destroy everyone and everything and he did not do it. He disobeyed me. And so Saul fell out of favor with God. So where we have it in the text that God means for his people to utterly destroy someone, that's what he means.

Now there were certain stipulations that if somebody were to repent and worship the God of Israel, that they would not be destroyed. And we actually see that in the book of Joshua in chapter 2, Rahab and her family are spared from the destruction of Jericho.

It's in chapter 9 where it talks about the Gibeonites being spared and because they surrendered. And so a treaty was developed with Israel. So there were times when, hey, we're going to worship God, we are not going to fight against you.

Yes, provisions were given to some of those that would surrender. So it was not a total annihilation in that sense. But there were some aspects in that explanation in the Bible project video that just misunderstood the layout of the book of Joshua.

Like for example, the narrator said that in chapter 15, well, previously we saw that Joshua had wiped out these cities, but then in chapter 15, we see that the cities were actually populated. No, actually what's going on in the story of Joshua is that there was narrative that was finished by chapter 14.

And then when you get to chapter 15, it's explaining something that happened previously. So if you don't understand how to read Joshua, you think that you're reading something in a chronological order.

And that's not the way that things are being explained. In Joshua 11, 21, it says Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country from Hebron, from Debir and from Anab and all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel.

Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities, skipping to verse 23. So Joshua took the whole land, according to all the Lord had spoken to Moses, and Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel, according to their tribal allotments.

And the land had rest from war. It says that again in chapter 14, verse 15, the land had rest from war. These are two independent statements talking about battles and accomplishments of the Israelites there in the promised land.

Then you get into chapter 15. And what we start reading about there is God fulfilling the promises to certain people of the land that they would inherit. So in 1513 through 15, we read, according to the commandment of the Lord to Joshua, he gave to Caleb, the son of Jephunneh, a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath Arba, that is Hebron.

Arba was the father of Anak. And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahimon and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath Sefir.

So what this looks like is it looks like Joshua drove them out in chapter 11. But now here you have Caleb driving them out in chapter 15. Now here's how the story is being told. Joshua is giving credit for the victory in chapter 11 because he was the high command of Israel.

I mean, God was the high command, but as far as a man is concerned, Joshua was put in charge over Israel as Moses' successor. But then what you have in chapter 15 is a more specific account of what was accomplished in chapter 11.

Caleb, in particular, was the one who went into that city and drove them out. So the victory of the battle has been given to Joshua, but Caleb was the hand of Joshua that went into that city and drove them out.

Does that make sense? So the Bible project video just misunderstands how to read Joshua in that sense. So again, that's why there are aspects about what they said related to genocide and ethnic cleansing that are correct.

And I don't think you should dismiss the video simply because, you know, that two and a half minute clip was some yes and some no. There's differing opinions on that, but overall it reveals a misunderstanding on how to read the book.

And it has that feel of the guy wanting to take God off the hook. No, he didn't command that everyone would be destroyed. There's not a reason for you to have to have a problem with this. Here's what we're supposed to understand whenever we read passages, whether it's in 1 Samuel or it's in Deuteronomy or Leviticus or in Joshua about God devoting a people to destruction.

Number one, God owns all the land. It's his to do with it what he wants. He created everything. He can decide to give it to this people or that people. It's up to him. And we have it given to us in Deuteronomy chapter nine, four through five.

God explains to the Israelites why the land is being given to them. Do not say in your heart after the Lord, your God has thrust him out before you. It is because of my righteousness that the Lord has brought me to possess this land.

Whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out before you, not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart. Are you going in to possess their land?

But because of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord, your God is driving them out from before you and that he may confirm the word that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob.

So number two, the number two thing that we need to keep in mind whenever we read passages like this, all people are sinners and deserving of judgment. And God is a righteous judge and his judgment is perfect.

Exactly. And the Israelites were the instrument that God chose to punish the people of the land of Canaan. It said at the start of the book of Joshua, Joshua 1, 18, whoever rebels against the Lord's commandment and disobeys his words shall be put to death.

That's what was happening in the land of Canaan and Israel God was using to punish those people, but also to fulfill a promise that he had given to Abraham that his children would possess that land. And that was being fulfilled in the book of Joshua.

Number three thing we need to understand whenever we read passages of this kind is that those Canaanites that surrendered and worship God were spared and it is God's will to do so. So the reason why there would be a total destruction of a group of people is because of sin.

It's not because of an ethnic cleansing and it's not because of genocide. God is punishing them for their sin. He chose Israel out of all the other nations on the earth to put his name with them. And of course it is from the Jews, from the line of Abraham all the way to Mary and Joseph that we got Jesus Christ, the savior of the world who would reconcile not only Jews to himself but also Gentiles, which is us.

Right. Praise God. Amen. Now what we read in Joshua and what we've talked about in Revelation and overall this has kind of been a theme of the questions that we've responded to so far today is that a judgment is coming that's going to be much more severe than what we read in Joshua.

So there's no reason for us to take God off the hook when it comes to the judgment of people. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 6 .23, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So we understand that the judgment of God is coming. Second Thessalonians chapter one when Christ is revealed bringing fiery vengeance with his angels from heaven and he will devote to destruction all who did not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right. But all those who did believe will be delivered along with the saints and rejoice in his heavenly kingdom forever. Amen. So this in Matthew 25, in Joshua, in first Samuel 15, these are just glimpses of a massive judgment that is coming at the end of all time.

But if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. Praise the Lord. So preach the gospel. Amen. Yes. Praise God for that. Okay. Next question here. And this has to do with the what video on did Jesus go to hell?

Jesus' Ascension, Paradise, and John 20:17

Okay. So let's go ahead and play that video first and then I'll respond to Rhett's question here. All right. So after Jesus died on the cross, did his spirit then descended to hell? No, Jesus Christ did not go to hell between his death and resurrection.

In Ephesians four where it says he ascended on high, he also descended into the lower region so that he might fill all things. But this does not mean he went to hell. It means he was buried in the earth.

That's literally how that translates. Psalm 16 says you will not abandon my soul to Sheol or let your Holy One see corruption. The King James translates Sheol as hell, but the word means grave, not a place in the afterlife.

We read in Acts 2 31 that Christ fulfilled this prophecy because indeed his body was raised to life and did not decay. In Matthew 12 40, Jesus said that he would go into the heart of the earth. But again, this is the grave.

In first Peter three, it says that after Christ died, he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison who did not obey in the days of Noah. But Colossians 2 15 explains that Christ triumphed over the dark forces and put them to open shame that doesn't involve going to hell.

The Gospel of Nicodemus says Jesus descended into hell, but that's an apocryphal text written in the fourth century. Likewise, the Apostles Creed says that he descended into hell, but the creed came over a century after the apostles.

It all died. It isn't scripture. And the phrase he descended into hell likely has the same meaning as Ephesians 4 9. Jesus said to the thief hanging next to him today, you will be with me in paradise.

He said to his father into your hands, I commit my spirit. And as he breathed his last, he said, it is finished. The work was done. And Christ had no reason to descend into hell. So then where was his spirit for those three days that his body was in a tomb?

Well, he said, paradise when we understand the text. I like that music. Me too. I was dancing to the music. Okay. So Rhett in Tennessee on that video, he says, I was watching the video you did about Jesus going to hell.

And while I agree that he did not, my wife pointed out John 20 verse 17. And after reading it and thinking about it, I couldn't connect the dots with the explanation given in your video. If you could, I would appreciate your thoughts on how that verse correlates to the question of if Jesus went to hell or not.