July 17, 2003

Program Introduction and Live Call-In Format

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White. It is a Thursday evening and You know, you've heard the joke before about how you know, it feels so good when someone stops hitting you. What's what's the only good thing about getting a beating is when they stop well, that's sort of like what's like in Phoenix today it it is only According to my computer right now 104 degrees and you might say that sounds pretty warm.

It's not Because it's hit 117 the last three days. That's a 13 degree drop and I'm almost feeling a chill in the air at a hundred Degrees. It has been Absolutely ridiculous of late it truly has it just oh It's enough to melt you melt your brain and everything else along with it.

So I am rejoicing in that and right after the program today I am jetting right out of my office and heading Across town to Tempe Baptist Church where I hope I will be able to get in and hear Derek Webb Sing this evening and I didn't even know he was going to be in town and and Kind pastor across the valley called up and said did you know this?

I didn't know so I'm I'm heading that direction right after the program today. So not gonna be sticking around those of you in the chat channel. I'm gonna be history as soon as that that last bit of Steve camp music begins playing.

I'm uh, I'm on my way across across the valley to hear Derek Webb Sing. I've not had that opportunity Derek and I have talked many times on the phone and communicated by other means. But I've not had the opportunity of sitting down and chatting with him.

Don't know that I will tonight be perfect honest with you, but I'd like to Take the opportunity of getting over there. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number if you would like to join us on the program today.

I'm looking at some stuff here. I there's There's all sorts of neat stuff That I've been dealing with today, I'm not actually think about that's really overly neat but Some of it has been somewhat Unpleasant as in every day that that takes place Just considering things not sure exactly who's going to be calling in if anyone will if you'd like to sort of drive the topic today you might want to Give a call early because otherwise I'm lining some stuff here up on my system that will probably Take most of our time.

I thought I had a window open to you over there. I'm in fact. I'm priest. Oh, I crashed. That's right. I forgot you Dora does not like having system resources maxed out and if you try to if you try to Resize a window in it it freezes and the whole thing dies all over the place so if you'd like to if you'd like to sort of drive the topic tonight sort of like like Ashraf did on Tuesday.

You know and I'm not I'm not promising anyone you know 50 minutes on the on the dividing line like we did, but it was an interesting phone call and You can call it 877 -753 -3341 is the toll free Phone number.

Keep that in mind if that should cause you to not desire to be a part of the program. It is a toll-free number. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let me mention that I forgot to ask do we have any of the extra John by the father's left?

None none. That probably means no or none there you go. Hey. They did they didn't quite teach typing up there where you went to school when you were younger, huh. There mr.. AOM in person yeah, they're gone, so the the Special that we had there.

I hope all of you who got it enjoy it don't hog that second edition give it out to somebody and Put some of those in your car. Give them away do whatever you want with them, but the new editions are still available of course on the website of both the now the sovereign grace of God used to be God's sovereign grace and of course drawn by the father hey Balthazar just came in the channel and Those of you don't know Balthazar is a dr. Pryce.

He's Paris Price Pierce. He's a he's an astronomer. And he looks up in in the sky, and he sees things like like gamma-ray bursts and things like that so Balthazar is is our channel genius, and I think he's actually in Hawaii right now someplace like that and so nice to.

The Blinken DL is on. Yes. Yes Balthazar the Blinken DL is on of course. He's an Aussie so they they talk very differently as you've noticed if you've ever gone to Outback Steakhouse. But anyway Let's go ahead and make sure that my computer is fired up miss your peers if you're able to to do that for me and We did not finish at all listening to Some of the materials that I put together Just a few weeks ago, and see I'm I'm honestly fighting very hard Not to address Particular Subjects today I've spent my day well not spent all of it But spent a portion of it dealing with with certain issues certain topics.

And that's always a whole lot easier for me to address Than anything else to sort of shift gears obviously it's it's easier to to take the you know What's on your mind and talk about it? But I just I don't know it's somewhat of a Almost depressing subject to address anyways, and so I'm just not certain that I want to do that so if we can fire up the the see ah Ah See now right before I was about to do that there there comes the the little thing on The screen that says someone has called in and it's a completely different so well.

John 1:18, the Alexandrian Text, and the Nag Hammadi Library

Yeah, it's completely different subject, and so we'll go ahead and do that. We'll take We'll take the call and then we'll see we'll see What what comes after that let's go ahead and talk to Howard in?

Western Kansas which is over toward where the mountains are and Kansas is a Over and well in western, Kansas you might start getting some hills, but else other than that It's just it's just like really really flat, and you can go really really fast in your car, too.

Yes, about 90. Yeah, I remember that I met every Every summer my family would drive out to Kinsley, Kansas. Do you know where Kinsley, Kansas is it's east of here. Well, that's well if you're in western, Kansas That was a that was you could be a psychic and make money doing that.

Sorry. Of course everything is far east from here. That's the point so yeah, so anyway. How you doing Howard?

I'm doing well. I still think you should put doctor on your book. No no no not gonna do it. No, I'm gonna do it. I did want to ask you. I started to talk to you a few weeks ago at the end of a program about John 118 and we ran out of time.

Okay on that King James. Only thing I was talking to one person He was talking about About how the Gnostics had influenced the I guess the word God. And the NIV comes from the Alexandrian. Well.

Actually all of the earliest texts of The Of that particular passage have the term God there it is monogamous theos p66 p75. Both. Have that that particular reading and It is very easy for people to simply dismiss a reading because well, that's in the Alexandrian text.

Well, which are the Alexandrian text which ones aren't most those folks who bring those things up? I've never even taken the time to actually look and And to deal with what those those documents actually are the assertion and and if I had it here Now that I Wouldn't there would be no way I could find it without interrupting the program to do it.

But what you might want to do is I think on straightgate .com and by the way If I could make an announcement here straightgate .com has a Totally new look it is absolutely gorgeous. The archives are much easier to use now and looking up the topics that have been covered on past dividing line programs Straightgate we do not run straightgate .com.

Stephen Luker does so take a look at it drop him a line. Thank him for all the work that he does if you like to listen to the archives. You don't listen to it live or things like that. Let Stephen know you appreciate all the work he does and if you will I think on straightgate.

Maybe somebody the channel can look and let me know. We have the radio debate that took place in 1994 good grief. That was nine years ago now Between myself and da wait now da wait is a fairly well-known King James only advocate out of Collingswood, New Jersey.

He has written numerous books this is the only time we've done a a Radio debate and I have contacted him many times since then this is before my book came out To do debates and he simply won't even return my my emails any longer though he loves talking about me and how bad I am and stuff like that, but Anyway, we did a discussion of this and John 118 was was raised and he made the very same assertion that you are now Relaying to us and I challenged him on that very subject.

I said, okay document this. Show us, you know, which ones you're talking about. What are the which which particular? Manuscripts are you referring to demonstrate that they have some relationship? To heretics, etc, etc, and he simply couldn't do it.

He just simply said well The the you know, Egypt was filled with heretics. Well That's that's real nice. That that doesn't exactly prove anything. There were heretics everywhere. And in fact as Daniel Wallace has pointed out that the first manuscript we can really point to That specifically had connection to a heretic was from around the area of Antioch one of the favorite areas of King James only advocates as far as manuscripts are concerned and That was connected to an Aryan.

So the idea that that the reading monogamy say off the unique God Is Gnostic in origin? It's interesting a man who supports dr. Robinson who supports the majority text. He does not support the eclectic text, but he supports the majority text, but he is very rabidly.

Against rabidly is a bad word that normally has bad bad connotation to it. He's very strongly very firmly against the King James only position pointed out that when he went through the Nag Hammadi library, which of course is a collection of Gnostic works contemporaneous with that period of time That he did not find Thank you very much someone in channel just let me know that that debate is on The 1994 debate is on straightgate .com so you can listen to it there Dr. Robinson Did not ever find the Gnostics using the phrase monogamous.

They are Unique God they only used monogamous. We are which is the reading of the King James, which means only begotten son. And so if you're going to make that kind of an argument You you at least think you would find support for it within the actual Gnostic documents.

But it's not there. And the reason why there is a variant between son and God. Sure sure.

Yeah, the the the use of the term theos there is unusual I mean John normally uses We asked after the term monogamous and most of the time when a scribe would be writing the word monogamous He would expect the next word to be we asked and so it's it's it's it is very easy to explain how a later scribe Would put we asked rather than theos.

They both are in the nominative form. They're both masculine. They both end with Omicron Sigma. And so they would look very familiar. They look very much like one another as far as the spelling goes. They're both short words.

Sometimes it well one of them was a gnomon a sacred very very easy how by simple sight without any type of Theological ramifications by simple sight you could go from the original reading of theos to who we ask.

We do that all the time typing the chat channel You you type certain words and you expect another word to follow right after that and you type it even if that's not what you Want to do we have an op for example by the name of wild boar and I cannot type wild boar every time I type it I type bored Because my mind just that's just that's how my that's how it works because you're bored not that BO a RD.

So, you know, that's just that's just how it works but and here's one of the main reasons why the vast majority of scholarship is is very Very firm on this reading.

There is no reason God would be the probable reading then.

Yes, the word God the reason that the vast majority of scholarship is is Very firm and understanding that to be the original reading is because there's no reason why it would have gone the other direction.

In other words since that phrase monogamous they off is unusual since it would be the only place that's used in the Gospel of John. While it's easy to understand why why some would go to only begotten son There isn't any reason to explain why they would have gotten gone to only begotten God.

That doesn't make any sense most of the object the objections that da wait and Jay green and others throw at John 118 as they think that monogamous means Created or generated and that's just simply a misunderstanding the term monogamous.

It means unique one-of-a-kind and I've addressed this both in the King James only controversy as well as the Forgotten Trinity because obviously the various Aryan groups like to Accuse Jesus of being created on the basis of the term monogamous.

And that's used a number of times in the Gospel of John, but that's not what the term means. It means unique or one-of-a-kind so That's there. There's no reason why scribe would have gone the other direction.

But there's plenty of reason understand why if the original was monogamous They asked that a later a later scribe would have accidentally amended that to who he asked. That's very easy to understand.

So that's why that's why scholars are very firm in their reading on that. Thank you. That was a very good answer. And I did have one other question. Sure I had to take a class for my denomination. It's caught and they gave me a textbook.

It's called introducing the Old Testament. And he makes the class at the pentagon. He gives five major overall. Possible might have been after the Babylonian period that they were looking to gather there.

But but didn't even King David say that right. They meditated upon it in David's time and well.

You know the thing to keep in mind is Unfortunately the vast majority in my experience anyways of Old Testament materials today that you will find in your in your bookstore are either Simplistic to the point of being useless or they come from a very liberal perspective outside of a handful of scholars like Gleason Archer.

You're not going to encounter a whole lot of real good conservative Old Testament materials because In essence, I've put it this way before we we gave that field up to the liberals in the 1800s. There is an article on our website written by Someone that doesn't get to be in channel much anymore, but you may have encountered him.

We call him silly Brit CDS is his name and Colin Smith, he's a student of mine and in in many ways Scholar in his own right and he has written an article on our website on what's called the graph well housing theory and this is the the theory that underlies and is really primarily responsible along with the the rise of destructive biblical criticism with the Primarily responsible for the the creation of the the context that you are encountering and reading that introduction and It is in essence based upon the idea You frequently see it put JEPD the the Yaoist source the Eloist source the priestly source the deuteronomic source.

Sometimes even more sources or fewer sources it all depends but it's based upon the idea that the Pentateuch especially is the result of an extensive process of compilation over time with various different sources frequently self-contradictory sources being brought together and patched together by later redactors and I would say that in And I do not in and I am NOT in any way shape or form Exaggerating here, I would say that in 90 to 95 percent minimally of all Theological seminaries Roman Catholic and Protestant evangelical you name it That is what is taught in the Old Testament classes there are a very small minority of Seminaries today wherein you would be taught anything else In including the idea of the actual Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch itself.

Now that's just the state of affairs today. I recognize I am in the minority to believe in Mosaic authorship and obviously someone may ask well, wait a minute. Didn't Jesus say that Moses did this I mean he quotes it as if it was Moses and people say well You know Jesus was a product of his time.

He didn't want to you know, either they'll say yeah, Jesus believed that doesn't mean anything which tells you a lot about where they're coming from theologically or he just was accommodating himself to the myths of the day and Communicating to us in our language in such a way as to not bother us and with you know, we would we would come to understand Eventually the true nature of the scriptures and the process of redaction criticism all the rest that stuff.

That went into it and creating that and so on and so forth and so that is in essence what what is asserted in the vast majority of of theological training today.

Are there. Uh, yeah.

Yes, there are and but they are not the type of books that are going to get the widest distribution and. Like I you know, I mentioned Gleason Archer's work his introduction to the Old Testament. Would have a lot of stuff on that that's why I mentioned Colin Smith's work on that because I believe if I'm recalling correctly.

There's a bibliography there. And so those would give you some some good starts as to as to where to look to things but don't feel like you've landed, you know. Back in you know, you're out of Kansas now.

You're Dorothy and you know all the rest that so this I betcha has special meaning for you living in Kansas. But don't think that you've lost toto or whatever it is. That's very very very standard very common to encounter that unfortunately a lot of conservatives when they start Looking for that kind of material.

And in reading scholarly material just are not prepared for it. They they've never had that discussed in Bible study things like that. We do at my church, but we're pretty weird. So it can throw throw people for a loop.

Well, I appreciate you taking my call, okay, thank you very much. Thank you. All right. Thanks for calling 877 -753 -3341. I thought I saw something about another call. But it was put into the main channel and went right on by me instead of being put into the message area.

Which ah, why why is why are you doing it over there? Why not why not over here where it's where it's supposed to. I feel just completely. You know lost now because it's it's like you don't like me or something.

But anyways, we have a call all the way back from the People's Republic of Massachusetts. That's a wonderful place. That is seemingly patterned after the great Soviet Socialist Republics of old. So let's talk with Pat in East Brookfield, Massachusetts, are you in Massachusetts?

I don't know. You folks you folks are causing people all across the land.

Tremendous angst these days because we're hearing that your Supreme Court Which hopefully is a little bit better than Florida's Supreme Court was is is thinking about this same-sex marriage stuff and because of Full faith and credit and all the rest that stuff you might you all may by one fell swoop export the complete redefinition of society.

By one state doing that. So, you know, what what's up back there?

Well, we had the Boston Tea Party. I don't know what you throw in the ocean for this one. I.

Don't know either but I I'm telling you it's it's oh man, it's what we have a Mormon governor. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. I think.

Certainly. Certainly we agree on some of the moral character questions and issues of the day. So yeah, you know certainly actually I guess I'm calling you to discuss where we part company with the Mormons.

Yes, but you know, I want to mention first. I I got to know I left a church that I was in locally here. By the way, I saw you in West Boylston last year. Oh, okay. Yeah had the pleasure of your meeting there before you went out to Steve's Pizza for a sub and.

Wow, you've got a better memory and I did yeah.

Well, you I only went to one. You go to a lot of them. That's right. The King James only controversy book you wrote was it was just instrumental in helping me at a former church that I was in and unfortunately, I had to leave it but When I left it and things were kind of ugly and I didn't know where I was going to turn I was fortunately ministered to by Mike Renahan.

Oh great I was sir, and that's a him a little bit. He gave me a couple of books at the time the sovereignty of God by a W pink and a little book by Jeremiah Burroughs called a Christian happiness or.

Contentment the Christian is it. Did I have the word content? I thought I had contentment it but yeah, I know which one you're talking.

It's an excellent little book and that's when I was introduced to the doctrines of gray fish, you know. Yes, that's right. Those things just God wants us to know it. Excellent. Wonderful God for that in your ministries been most helpful here.

Discipleship booklet for our class at church Wow, which is passed by a man who went to seminary with Jim Renahan. That's right.

And I. I was out at Westminster in Escondido last year to Speak for for them and had got a chance to stay spend some time with Jim Renahan and. So it's the Renahan brothers have done much for Reformed Baptist here in the United States.

That's for sure.

Well, they have been. We got up there. We got a strong reform. Work going on in a little town called Holland, Massachusetts, really and I have to cross that church. Just through some friends that I met and it's actually called Holland Congregational Church.

It is not UCC it's just we keep the name there to trick people in and. And it's amazing the pastor took over there. Oh 10 years ago and 25 members a female pastor baptizing infants. Grown to about 400 strong now with four services on Sundays and He's beginning to preach on Ephesians 1.

He thinks that'll probably put a cap on the growth.

Yeah, that's that's about. The fastest way to join the church shrinkage movements is.

I pulled in the driveway I look up the street and I see a couple of young looking Fellas walking away the other way with white shirts on it quickly ran out. My wife said we got plenty of dinner, so we had him in for dinner and as we had dinner we sat down and talked with him for about an hour and One of them particularly was talking a lot about apostolic succession.

Mm-hmm, and I had made a case for the fact that it can't be apostles like there were back in the days after Jesus Was risen and ascended because an apostle was someone based on x1 or 2 that had to be with Jesus from the day He was baptized in the Jordan who was resurrection and ascension.

Mm-hmm and He said well, what about Paul. Right right and so it's a good point. Yeah, but we continue to talk and my wife had made the excellent point about the fact that you know I made a case for the priesthood of believers and my wife had mentioned the fact that 2nd Timothy 2 2 teaches about the things Which you've seen or to me in the presence of many witnesses commit the faithful men who also be able to teach and right the teaching ministry of The church and and of course they had said that the church Essentially was gone on the earth for a while right.

Well I don't know how that comports with the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. But anyway, he gave me a wonderfully free gift the Book of Mormon, which I was more than happy to take. They had to be sweating it out a little bit because when they sat down the dinners right next to my personal library I've got no kingdoms of the cults and the King James only Controversy and the Forgotten Trinity and all these other great books burden, but if you would please what what might I do?

I want to meet with them again. Maybe in a month. Where might I go in the Book of Mormon just to make a case for it? Contradicting scripture, and is that where I should go first sir. Ah good question.

Let's have them over again right. Let's let's pick those up on the other side of the break. We'll talk a little about Mormonism and approaching those missionaries and. Also, talk to Robin and Minneapolis and your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back. You know.

Book Recommendations, Ministry Announcements, and Sponsor Reads

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The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

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My name is James White. We're taking your phone calls today.

In fact, we have a have a pretty full board actually going on here, which is very nice. That does seem to happen more on Thursday night than Tuesday morning and that's understandable but we're talking to Pat back in the People's Republic of Massachusetts concerning the Mormons and Pat would like to have the Mormons back to talk to them.

And so a couple things regarding some of the comments you made before. There is on our website in the under the apologetic section of section Mormonism that HTML. There is a thread it is a lengthy discussion on a web board as I recall maybe even BBS.

This is how old it is Called the gates of hell and it's a BBS discussion of a Hugh Nibley article from 1948 it's pretty long, but it goes into the the issue of That particular text and a lot of stuff on the apostasy and things like that.

Of course, I addressed That issue as well within the confines of my book letters to a Mormon elder which is something that you would probably want to get hold of and In fact, if I don't think we have any of the original edition.

Do we have any of the original edition of letters from Mormon elder left? I have seen Mormons fight Over. Taking the original edition of letters to a Mormon elder and the reason I've seen them fight over it is because the front cover Has a picture on it.

That is very Meaningful to Mormon missionaries. It shows a lot of the stuff that is a part of their life. On the front cover. We have 15 of them left of the original so you might want to get hold of one of the original ones a couple of them to give to them too because I Have had them.

Take them and read them and you know talk to them years and years later. Some will some will not it depends on the missionaries you may not even get the exact same pair. You may get a one of the same two.

That comes back to your house. It really depends on how quickly they're cycling people through that particular area that you're in. Yeah, so, you know, you never know. So it depends on the individual.

I mean, honestly, I'll never forget I met with some missionaries over at Rich Pierce's home years and years and years and years ago and we're sitting there talking we're having this intense conversation and and You know I'm sort of leaning forward in the missionary.

One of the two missionaries are leaning forward and we're going back and forth and also me here. So type sound and we look over and the other missionary at the end of the couch has fallen asleep. I mean, he's just completely bored with what we were doing and it could care less.

No, we're only on the on the bottom floor at that point but. So, you know, it really does depend upon The individuals that you talk to how long they're gonna want to talk to you where they could take a book.

Where they're gonna burn the book after they leave your home. I've had that happen too and I literally talked to them about that and ask now I'm gonna give this to you. But I give this to you understand that you're gonna read it not you're gonna burn it or something like that.

And so, you know. It really depends on the two young men that you end up talking to but many of them really do believe that what they're saying is true and they've never heard a Challenge and if it's offered to them in such a way that it's meaningful to them.

Then they you know, they're gonna listen now obviously remember these young men are immersed in Mormonism 24 hours a day. They they never get a break from it. They're always around another Mormon. They always have to be Strong in their testimony.

So even if you communicate things to them that they have no earthly idea of how to answer don't expect to see lights. Come on and and stuff like that. They're basically trained to avoid that most of the stuff that you share with them.

That's going to have meaning to them. Is going to sort of come bubbling back to the surface after they become what's called an RM a return missionary. They go home. The pressure cooker is released and all that stuff that they were Thinking about but didn't have time to think about comes bubbling back to the surface.

So you're really planting seeds and you're talking to those particular young men now. As far as where you start with them. We always emphasize the necessity to talk about who God is. Who Christ is and what the gospel is now all sorts of other issues can come up that are in essence the way we view them.

They're roadblocks. They're they're things that try to get in you in the way. That you may have to take an exit off and deal with it but you're always looking to get back on to. The main purpose that you have with them if you don't have a specific goal in mind when you sit down with them.

You'll never reach it because you didn't have one to begin with. So what you want to try to do is is is way in your mind various aspects. Maybe the conversation that you had the part of the probabilities or possibilities of getting to talk with them again.

How much time you're going to have and in essence what you're considering is well. You want to be able to proclaim the gospel to them? But at the same time since they have such a radically different view of God their God is Insufficient to support the biblical truth of grace their God Just simply cannot be the God of Scripture and so you're sort of torn in your decision.

Do I talk to them about who God is. I talked to them about the gospel is the one before the other and in many? In many instances if they are if they were raised within the church, and if they Have a very firm belief in the LDS concept of God you have to deal with that first because it doesn't matter what you say To them about the gospel.