Should Husband Be Servant Leaders?

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guns are going off overhead. Hey, y 'all, y 'all bring it in, bring it in. What should we do?

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Should we take this guy out or should we talk to him? I think we should storm the other army here.

00:15

No, that's scary. All right, I guess we'll go home. Yeah, why don't we just hide?

00:22

Yeah, that's a good idea. Why don't we just hide? See if they go past, you know, maybe we can sneak up on them or something.

00:28

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02:04

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

02:11

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, should husbands be servant leaders?

02:19

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us related to husbands and the idea of them being a servant leader?

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Tim Mullett Sure. This is directly relevant, obviously. Matthew 8, 8 through 10, so Matthew 8, 8.

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But the centurion replied, Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed, for I too am a man under authority with soldiers under me.

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And I say to one, go, and he goes, and to another, come, and he comes, and to my servant, do this, and he does it.

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When Jesus heard this, he marveled, and he said to those who followed him, truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have

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I found such faith. So there you go, that's the verse. Tim Mullett Whenever you start out an episode, whenever I ask you about what verse you have to read for us, and you start with a chuckle, that's how

03:13

I know that there's some devious plot that you've got going on that you're planning out.

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So what is it? Related to this verse specifically, I mean, come on,

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Tim, that's not husband. That's a centurion. He's talking about, you know, he's talking about his job or his, you know, maybe his servants at home that he's employing in some way, shape, or form.

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Come on, that's not husbands and wife, right? So how does that apply in this kind of situation?

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Jared Yeah, so what's happening is it's impossible to proof text a verse which basically says the

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Bible is anti -servant leader, okay? So if you want me to come up with a verse that says that God does not approve of a servant, then it's gonna be hard.

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So the issue is there's a lot of verses that speak into this topic in general, and this is one verse that speaks to the nature of what authority actually is in all authority relationships.

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And this is a verse that's relevant that we should do well to pay attention to. So what's happening with the servant leader movement is that you basically have the idea of leadership being fundamentally redefined as not leadership.

04:36

Like, that's what's happening, okay? So the issue is authority is viewed as a bad thing and wielding authority is viewed as a bad thing.

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And so what you have is you have a whole movement, particularly CBMW and all of them,

04:54

Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. You have individuals like that.

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I think most of the people at masters are on board with the servant leader kind of phenomenon.

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A lot of the biblical counseling movement speaks the language of servant leader. So you have a lot of different groups that are speaking into what is biblical masculinity, what does it mean to be a husband, and people that you in large measure agree with in general.

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But what's happened is you have the idea of patriarchy being rejected and you have kind of a softened form of complementarianism that's taken its place.

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And with that comes this concept of servant leadership as it's applied in the Christian world.

05:39

And what's happening is in book after book after book, you have a concept that's called leadership that doesn't really feel like leadership at all.

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But then what I've done here is I've just given you one verse which talks about the nature of what leadership is in general, what authority is in general, right?

05:56

So the idea in this encounter is you basically have

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I can give you a little bit more context. So Matthew 8, one, when he came down from the mountain, a great crowd followed him and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him saying,

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Lord, if you can make me clean. So Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him saying, I will be clean.

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And immediately the leprosy was cleansed. So Jesus said to him, see that you say nothing to anyone, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded for proof to them.

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So this is him engaging in his healing ministry. And then when he entered into Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him appealing to him.

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He said, Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly. And Jesus said to him,

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I will come and heal him. But then the centurion replied, Lord, I'm not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word and my servant will be healed.

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Because the idea is he says, I'm a man too under authority, right? So he's saying to Jesus, you have authority over this sickness.

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You don't have to come to my roof. I'm not even worthy to have you come to my roof, right? Just say the word right now and the sickness will go.

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You have authority over the sickness. So if you tell the sickness to go, it'll go, right? So he says, for I too am a man under authority with soldiers under me.

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If I say to one, go, he goes. And to another, come, he comes. And to my servant, do this, and he does it, right? And when

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Jesus heard this, he rebuked him for his servant leader rejection. No, I mean, when

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Jesus heard this, he marveled and he said to those who followed him, truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel, I found such faith.

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In other words, Jesus is acknowledging, yes, this is how leadership and authority works in relationship.

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But I do have authority over this sickness. And you know what, all I have to do is tell the sickness to go and it will go.

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And you're absolutely right because you understand how authority works. And so that's how all authority relationships work.

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If you read the Bible, you'll see over and over again, wives are told to obey their husbands. So even as Sarah obeyed

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Abraham, calling them Lord, wives are told to be subject to their own husbands, right? To submit in everything to their husbands.

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So like the idea is that these are pretty extreme statements. So wives are told to obey their husbands.

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We used to make vow, I put this in our wedding vows, love, honor, and obey. They're seen as being in subjection to their husband under their husband's authority.

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And so what you have is you have the servant leaders movement that's basically come along and is trying to soften this and redefine leadership such that it doesn't really sound like leadership.

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Basically, right? So, but in real leadership, what real leadership in every other situation in life, real leadership involves a person who is in authority giving instructions that are meant to be followed, right?

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Like that's the nature of what leadership is. And so what you don't have in the Bible is

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Jesus coming along and basically saying, hey, you know, this concept of like leadership, I'm just doing away with this.

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And all you guys need to do is just serve each other, right? And no one needs to tell anyone what they're doing. It's a big egalitarian thing here.

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You know? No such thing as authority relationships, right? So, but I mean, like the thing is like Jesus, like God relates to us not as a servant leader by any means, like in the sense of the common term, like we call him

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Lord, Lord, right? And if we call him Lord, then shouldn't we do what he says, right? And if you say that he's your

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Lord, you say you love him and you don't do what he says, then you are a liar. The truth is not in him.

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So Jesus is Lord. He's in authority over us. He came to serve us, sure. But then he did, we still obey him.

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He still tells us what to do. That's the way authority relationships work in every single area of life despite whatever the servant leader is saying, for sure.

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Yeah, I guess, I don't know. It just feels like, I mean, if someone wants to use the servant leader term, it seems like there's a way to make that make sense in light of the

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Bible and all of the commands that are given to husbands specifically and in the way that they're compared to Christ when it comes to the family structure, like the family authority dynamic.

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But it does not make any sense if you're talking about it in the way that probably most people are talking about it when they say servant leader.

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So what I mean basically is there's a way, I think there's a way to say, hey, look, as a husband,

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I am a servant to my family. I am the one who's working to provide for them all of the money that I have.

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I'm taking and using it to support my family. I'm giving us a place to live.

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I'm essentially selling myself to an employer to make the money to provide for everything that they need.

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Beyond, even beyond that, I'm leading them spiritually. I'm sitting everyone down and we're singing songs.

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We're praying together. We're studying the Bible. That means not only am I doing that in the moment, but I'm also planning out what those things are.

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So I'm having to take time there. I'm planning out several, I mean, just like every aspect of what our family is doing from where we live, what we do with all of our finances, what church we go to, who we submit ourselves to.

11:43

Yeah, you're getting carried away with all that. I mean, that sounds pretty tyrannical to me. I mean, telling your family where to go to church, where they're gonna live.

11:52

Hey, it's funny you say that because I remember having a conversation with a guy who was in the military.

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He was in the military and we were having a discussion about as husbands, how do we lead?

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And I was saying all that stuff. Yeah, hey, look, I'm the one,

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I'm the, sure, I'm getting input from my spouse when it comes to a lot of these decisions.

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But then at the end of the day, who's making the final call? It's me. I'm the one making the final call.

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And he had an issue with that. And I thought that was really funny with him being in the military because -

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Yeah, it sounded very serious. I mean, it's not like, I mean, yeah, in the military,

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I mean, when you're getting shot at, there's not like a, hey, let's all gather up together and vote on what we need to do.

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I mean, and there's really, I mean, sometimes that probably happens, but the majority of the time it's the, no, this is the person who's in charge over this group.

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And this is who's in charge here. And this is who's in charge here. And this person makes the decision and it goes down from there.

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And so it's like, you have the person who, their entire life is structured that way.

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I mean, because when you're in the military, it's not just like a nine to five kind of job.

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It's a different kind of lifestyle you're living and their whole life is that way. But then they have a problem with it when it comes to the family dynamic.

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And ultimately, it's absurd for anyone to have that kind of issue with this type of family dynamic where the husband's the one making the final decision because we all have bosses.

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We all have people who are in authority over us. Every single person does, and we don't have a problem with it.

14:00

Well, I guess probably most normal people don't have a problem with it. But then when it's -

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You do if it's called a husband, yeah. But the moment it's husband, that's where, hey, you need to be a servant leader and not in the, let me give my family all of the money that I earn and everything that I was talking about earlier.

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I think more what they mean is probably what you were talking about with the, hey, do everything that your wife doesn't want to do.

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Appease her in every way possible. Never give her any commands that she doesn't like.

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Really don't even give her commands, probably. No, no, because that would be, if you actually give her instructions, then that would be infantilizing her because she's an adult too.

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So she, that's treated like a child. Yeah, so the idea, so here's the thing. I mean, servant leader,

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I'm gonna tell you where it came from, okay? So servant leadership is a philosophy and set of practices that enriches the lives of individuals, builds better organizations, and ultimately creates a more just and caring world, right?

15:12

There you go. That's beautiful. Yeah, so the concept was popularized by Robert K.

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Greenleaf in 1970 through his essay, The Servant as Leader, right? So in this approach, the main goal of the leader is to serve others, particularly employees, and to ensure that other people's highest priority needs are being served, right?

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So the goal of the leader is to be a servant. So here are some core principles of servant leadership. So empathy, yeah, right?

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So leaders strive to understand and empathize with others. Listening, so leaders listen first and affirm others and gain an understanding of the needs of those they serve.

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So this is sounding more like an Oprah kind of affirmation project now, right?

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So - You are valid. You are seen. You are heard. You are seen. You are heard, yeah. So you need to empathize.

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Feel the emotions that they're feeling. So if your wife is on her period and she's just doesn't know how to regulate her emotions at that moment, you just need to jump in there with her and just follow the ups and downs wherever they go, man.

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So empathize, yeah. Listening, so listen first and affirm others and gain an understanding of those needs.

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Healing, one of the great strengths of the servant leader is the potential for healing oneself and others. Awareness, so general awareness, especially self -awareness, strengthens the servant leader.

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Persuasions. So servant leaders rely more on persuasion than their positional authority in making decisions.

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So they try to persuade. So this is like the classic like yes, dear husband, right? So I wanna persuade you to come to my path by listening to you, understanding what you're saying, feel, you know, empathizing with your feelings and basically, you know,

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I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I'm just gonna try to nudge you in the right direction. And you know, so this sounds a lot like role reversal.

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Conceptualization, so leaders should nurture their abilities to dream great dreams, looking beyond the day -to -day realities.

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Foresight, the ability to foresee the likely outcome of a situation is crucial for servant leaders.

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Stewardship, leaders are often seen as stewards or trustees of their organization's resources. Commitment to the growth of people.

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So servant leaders believe that people have an intrinsic value beyond their tangible contribution as workers in building a community.

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So a servant leader focused on building a strong community with his or her organization and contributes to a broader community.

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So, you know, none of that really, I mean, a lot of those things can be good in that particular context.

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I mean, I think the Bible says the person who gives an answer for you here is his following in shame. Like you should be quick to listen, so to speak, slow to wrath.

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But like part of the idea is that if none of that feels like traditional leadership, it's because it's not.

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You know, like it's just about empathizing, understanding and hearing and, you know, gently nudging, trying to persuade, you know.

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So you would never wanna, like, you know, you would never wanna give like a command, you know, particularly a command that isn't enthusiastically embraced by those who are following you.

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Right, so there's no confrontation there. You're the ultimate like a female chatbot friend who is trying to nurture.

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And, you know, so what happens though is when you, like this was, so this is a concept in the business world, but then this

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Christians took over this concept and we now see this as like a biblical imperative, man. And it basically sounds the same like this, right?

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So whenever people describe servant leader, like none of it sounds like leadership. You know, it all sounds like being the, you know, the secular therapist who is giving universal positive regard and trying to identify needs and give, it's basically, you know, it is what it sounds like.

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It's like, if you're the husband, you're the servant leader, then you're not like leading through instructions.

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You know, what you're gonna be doing is basically trying to identify your wife's needs and by what she says.

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And basically your wife is leading the home through her desires and it's your job to figure out what those desires are and make them happen, you know?

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And in the stereotypical situation, I mean, this really is what most people think about when they think about servant leadership.

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They think about a guy who is basically gonna work a nine to five, which doesn't count for anything, right?

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Like, that's just him being a provider, bare minimum, who cares, you know, blah, blah, blah.

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And what he's gonna do is he's gonna come home to like the house, it's an absolute catastrophic mess because his wife has been addicted to her phone all day long or whatever.

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And so then he's gonna come home and enter into her world and bear her burdens and share her load, right? He's gonna serve her.

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So basically he's gonna take over her job. So basically as the servant leader, what you do is you do her whole job that she didn't do all day long because she's been, you know, because you don't know what it's like to babysit kids on Saturday when she goes grocery shopping, right?

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So you don't have any idea what it's like to take care of kids, right? So what she's been doing is distractively watching her kids while she watches

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TV and stuff, you know? And so then you come home, you do her entire job for her. And then, you know, you, every time there's a decision to be made, you go to her and you say, honey, what do you think we should do?

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And then whatever she says, you do that. And that's what it means to lead, right? So figure out what she wants, give it to her, take her job from her and do her entire job.

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And that's basically the counsel that most people are given in these kinds of things. But I mean, this is a recipe for being totally unattractive to your wife.

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Like you think that this is the way to make her happy, but this is gonna make her miserable. Like this is gonna result in her being depressed because you've taken her job from her.

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She has nothing productive to do. She's gonna feel the guilt and shame and condemnation of not doing her job. And then she's gonna feel stressed out because every time there's a decision to made, you come along as the nice guy who's just trying to ask her what she wants to do.

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And she doesn't wanna make every decision. That stresses her out, right? But she's gonna have to make every single decision because you're just that nice guy who's come along servant leading, right?

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But then, you know, what women are really attracted to is they're attracted to guys who take initiative. And most of the critiques that women have about men are related to the fact that men are not taking initiative like they should.

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And what it means to be a leader is to take initiative. To take initiative, to have a plan, to be decisive, to be able to make decisions, to calculate all the variables, right?

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So it's certainly a part of that is gonna be listening to those you're leading. But then, you know, just imagine any scenario of life where you have a boss who's like, hey, you know, guys, everything's on the table.

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What do you think our business strategy should be? What do you think we should do? I'm open to all ideas.

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What do you think we should make today? I mean, I know we make - I'm feeling off overhead.

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Hey, y 'all, y 'all, bring it in, bring it in. Bring it in. What should we do? Should we take this guy out or talk to him?

22:03

I think we should storm the other army here. No, that's scary.

22:09

All right, I guess we'll just, I guess we'll go home. Yeah. Yeah, why don't we just hide?

22:14

Yeah, that's a good idea. Why don't we just hide? See if they go past, you know, maybe we can sneak up on them or something.

22:20

Maybe they'll forget about us. Let's vote.

22:25

Let's vote on it, you know. I'm a servant leader, you know, I don't make decisions. Let's see the yays, the yays.

22:31

All right, mays. All right, so 70 % of us said that we should hide. Okay. I don't think that would have won

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World War II, probably. But okay, so with all that being said, though, you know,

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Jesus did explicitly say that he came not to be served, but to serve.

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And I imagine that probably a lot of people who subscribe to the servant leader model, whatever you want to call it, they probably look to a verse like that as a pretty solid proof text for the servant leader idea.

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So what is your response to that? I mean, that's a Bible verse. Yeah, that's a Bible verse that's not saying what

23:17

Robert K. Greenleaf said in 1970, okay? Sure, sure. So what's then the response to the person that says, but Jesus said he came not to be served, but to serve.

23:31

Yeah, I mean, so he's saying something that's like very obvious that is not servant leader as defined by Robert Greenleaf, right?

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And as defined by common evangelicals. So I mean, everyone has met the kind of leader who will basically just, who loves to tell people what to do.

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And it's just like, hey, he just loves bossing people around. You know, he gets a kick out of that, like building his authority, exercising his authority by getting people to do trivial things to him.

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So I mean, you can imagine like the stereotypical kind of person who has his servants, who's laying on his bed, who's getting fanned by some of his servants, and he's telling them how to fan him.

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And then he's calling to the other one to say, hey, go get me some grapes, you know, that kind of thing. And then instructing them on how to put them in his mouth, right, and everything else.

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So I mean, you can, there is obviously a kind of person who lusts for power in order to be that kind of person who's lazy and who just like bosses people around.

24:34

So I'm sure that you've been in enough situations with leaders where they strangely, like they like to tell them people what to do, and they never worked a day in their life, and they wouldn't even know how to work, right?

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They just, they know how to point to people and tell them to do all the things that they don't wanna do and everything else.

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So I mean, certainly there is that kind of person. And that kind of thing is like a real danger.

24:56

And that's a real temptation that comes with leadership to selfish people. And I'm sure that there are plenty of pig -headed husbands who are just like that, who are just like the boss, everyone around and tell everyone what to do and wouldn't lift a finger to help anyone out.

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They're not leading according to knowledge, right? They're not actually listening to people. They're just telling them to do irrational, unreasonable things while everyone watches them be lazy and sit around and do nothing.

25:23

So yeah, I think that the Bible would have the strongest kind of condemnation for that kind of thing. And there are plenty of people who pursue church leadership just so they can boss people around.

25:33

There's plenty of people who like, because they've never known how to serve a day in their life, they've never known how to work a day in their life.

25:39

They're just lazy. There's plenty of people who climb the corporate ladder just like that, who never, they don't know what a hard day's work is.

25:47

Most of their commands that they give, the instructions they give are completely unreasonable, divorced from reality.

25:52

You have no idea what they're saying. Certainly those kinds of things exist, but that isn't the whole concept of servant leadership.

26:00

So the idea is that leadership is a real thing. God is our leader, right?

26:07

So the Bible doesn't redefine leadership as service. And that's kind of what's happening in these kinds of conversations where you have people who think what leadership is, is it service?

26:17

It's like a total redefinition of it. And then you're saying, hey, the Son of Man didn't come to be served, but to serve and give his life for ransom for many.

26:26

So yeah, Jesus didn't come to be a petty tyrant and boss people around, right? But he did come to reveal the

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Father to us. And if you don't do what he says, then he's going to cast you into a fire forever and ever where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

26:40

So the issue is that God is, Jesus is Lord, right? He calls the shots. We are his slave, right?

26:46

At the end of the day, the Bible is very clear about this. And I mean, it's somewhat stark.

26:54

Let me see if I can find this verse that, yeah, so think about this.

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Will any of you who has a servant, this is Luke 17, seven. Will any of you who has a servant plowing or keeping his sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, come at once and recline at the table.

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Will he rather not say to him, prepare supper for me, dress properly and serve me while I eat and drink and afterwards you eat and drink?

27:28

Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So also you, when you have done all that you were commanded to say we are unworthy servants, we have only done our duty, right?

27:37

So God still relates to us as a Lord to a master, right? And like, so like the issue -

27:44

He's a Lord to a servant. A Lord to a servant, yeah. He still relates to us as a Lord to a servant. And he's not come to fundamentally redefine like the nature of his

27:52

Lordship. Like he's not come to teach like servant Lordship or something.

27:58

Like he is Lord, right? He's Lord and he has commands and we need to do what he says. And that's the way it works.

28:04

And that's how all authority relationships work. But then, yeah, he's not come to be a petty dictator where he just come to boss us around and tell us all what to do to get us like, like to take care of his minor comforts and creature comforts and everything else.

28:19

That isn't what he came to do. To be, you know, one of those sniveling, you know, bloated head kind of leaders who love to demonstrate their authority by bossing people around.

28:32

But yeah - Could you imagine like, you know, Jesus telling the disciples that he's gonna die on the cross, he's gonna go die on the cross and, you know,

28:43

Peter's throwing his fit, you know, may it never be. And Jesus's response is, oh, well, okay,

28:51

I guess I won't go do it then. You seem pretty upset. I don't wanna, you know,

28:57

I don't, I feel like I'm not showing enough empathy here if I continue on with my plans with how upset you are,

29:04

Peter. I'll go let the father know. You know, that's not, that'd be pretty bad.

29:10

That'd be a pretty bad way to lead. Yeah, so I mean, leadership, like the thing is, leadership is still leadership.

29:16

Leadership is still taking initiative. Leadership is still being responsible for those underneath you, right?

29:22

Leadership still involves having a plan, like saying, hey, we're going from X to Y. This is our goal.

29:28

This is the steps that we're gonna take to get there. You know, so husbands are still commanded to present their wives spotless and blameless before God, like to wash them with the water of the word.

29:38

That means that they're gonna teach them things. They're going to have a sanctification plan for their home. They're gonna have tangible steps that they take as a family.

29:46

And so most guys like that grow up in the servant leader world, they don't understand taking initiative.

29:52

They don't understand leadership, responsibility, like having a plan, having direction, you know, all it reduces to is just, hey, yeah, you're gonna be a leader by washing, doing the dishes for your wife, you know, that'll, and then trying to figure out what she wants and give it to her, you know?

30:09

And so it basically just, it reduces to just being a yes, dear man who just has no plan, has no direction, who's constantly looking to your wife for affirmation to figure out what you're doing with your life.

30:20

And then if there's any situation where she's in strongly disagreement with anything you're doing, then you're probably in the wrong and you probably need to rethink it and everything else.

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So it's your job to listen to her, affirm her and be, you know, be there for her. And it's just like, yeah,

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I, yeah, a husband lives with his wife according to knowledge, he's still a leader, he needs a plan, you know?

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It's not gonna be the servant leader stuff for sure. It's gonna be leader, leader, leader stuff, you know?

30:47

Leader, leader stuff, I like that. Okay, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on leader, leader.

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So thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions and the hope is that this'll, you know, probably open some, hopefully open some people's eyes to the ridiculousness of the servant leader role as it's commonly understood at least.

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And for others, it'll equip them to be able to think about these things a little more clearly and then go and talk to the people in their lives where this topic is pertinent.

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Bible and on topics that probably most people are a little too scared or squeamish to touch on directly.

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This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

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