Experiencing Postpartum Depression Together (Jen2 Podcast Premier)

We're a little bossy, it's okay, we're older, we're allowed to be bossy.

Do this.

Do that.

Do you need somebody to tell you what to do? We can do that.

My name is Jennifer Foskey, and this is my good friend, Jennifer Brad, oh, sorry, sorry.

Jennifer Bradshaw, good morning.

Hi.

Okay, so Jen and I are here today to talk to you about our postpartum experience, but before we do that, let's tell you a little bit about who we are.

So I'm Jen Bradshaw, and let's see, I guess we've lived in this area.

My husband's been a pastor of Grace Church since 2009.

I've got now five children, almost 23-year-old, 20-year-old, almost 18-year-old, 15-year-old, and then a 10-and-a-half-month-old.

I own a business, I own a Jazzercise Fitness Center in Fernandina Beach.

So I am what would also be considered an older mom.

Are we gonna, I don't know if we gotta disclose our ages, but I am an older mom, and my husband's a pastor, and I'm a homeschool mom, super busy, I like to stay busy, and I'm excited that we're gonna talk about kind of this last year.

And this is deeply personal for both of us, but I'm excited to share with you our story.

But I'm Jen Foskey, Jennifer Foskey, and I'm a pastor's wife.

I was going to almost say a homeschool mom too, but this year I'm a private school mom.

Three of my kids, I have six, eight, and almost six, eight, and 10-year-old that are in school.

And I have a 10-month, 10-and-a-half-month-old baby boy, who's currently playing with her baby boy.

Yes! And I have two older, much older children that are 25 and almost 23.

So I did want to go ahead and preface that what we're gonna be talking about today is kind of a delicate topic.

We're gonna be talking about depression and pregnancy loss, and some things that might be kind of troubling for some people to hear about.

So just a red flag about that.

And also, we are not healthcare professionals.

So whatever we say, every situation is different.

Please don't use this as medical advice.

Always go to your doctor.

We're just sharing our experiences and trying to raise awareness for postpartum depression in women in general, and then I think also in women that are a little bit older, to just raise awareness and help people kind of understand more, because there's a lot of misconceptions and stigmas.

And if you're listening to this podcast, I mean, surely there are women in your church that may be expecting, or if you're a younger mom.

It doesn't happen only to older moms.

It can happen to any mom, regardless of if this is your first child, or your fifth child, or beyond.

I mean, it can happen in any pregnancy to anybody.

So I'm hoping that as you listen to this, if you're thinking, I'm a man, what do I need to know about this for? Well, it affects everyone, and it affects far more people I have learned over the last year than I ever understood before.

A lot of people think it won't happen to them.

I was that person.

Me too.

Me too.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, do we want to talk about our birth experiences? Sure.

Do you want to go first this time? Oh! Okay.

Go ahead.

Well, I'll begin with, my son Theodore was my, I was very surprised when I found out that we were expecting.

Because I had suffered some miscarriages before him, and I had turned 40, well, I was 41, when I found out that I was pregnant with him.

And I thought that I was ending my childbearing time.

So I'll begin with that.

So really, the first month or two, I mean, I was on top of morning sickness.

I was just in a state of, I'm not sure that we're even going to make it to term.

And I didn't have that initial connection, I guess you could say, or just belief that I was going to carry a full-term pregnancy.

But as the time went on, and my stomach was getting larger, and all of the signs and doctor's appointments and ultrasounds, everything was perfect, blood work.

You know, we were excited to meet him.

And you know, my pregnancy and delivery, you know, I didn't have any sadness.

I mean, it was just similar to my other children.

And he is my fourth biological child, too, so that gives, you know, I'm not a first-time mom.

So with that, I thought that, but after having him, I noticed right away he was born with a tongue tie, a severe tongue tie.

I mean, I remember after I delivered him, the nurse put him on my chest and said, wow, he is very tied.

His tongue is very tied.

I did not know what that meant.

I had never heard of that before.

But we struggled the first, until we could get that revised when he was six weeks old, every day was a struggle.

He had colic.

He couldn't, he didn't nurse very well.

He couldn't take a bottle very well either.

And he was miserable, and we were miserable trying to care for him.

So that was the real beginning of everything.

It was the first six weeks looking back were such a sleepless blur.

But after he was, the tongue tie was revised, and we were finding success in feeding him, I thought, okay, well, this sadness that I felt would be over now, because surely our life is somewhat on a rhythm.

But I didn't experience that.

But I'll stop there, and we'll pick up more about the depression.

But that's the first six weeks after having Theodore.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny.

I had, so my pregnancy, so again, I thought I was premenopausal, because I was 43 when I found out I was pregnant.

It was a humongous shock, humongous shock.

And I had a great pregnancy, but my last pregnancy about 10 years ago was also a miscarriage.

So I, again, had probably that first 20 weeks where you're just, it's hard to form that relationship with the baby, because you're afraid you're going to lose the baby.

So after about 20 weeks, I finally started to feel the bond, and I expected to just go into labor, push that baby out, go home, and it would be great, and it did not go that way.

They wanted to induce me early, and I think because being older, I'm high risk, and I was totally fine with doing whatever kept my baby healthy and safe.

So they induced me early, but I think my due date was wrong, so I was probably instead of a week early, I was probably more like two weeks early, and my body didn't want to go into labor.

So the baby was in distress, so they ended up doing not exactly an emergency C-section, but it was as close as it could be without being an emergency C-section.

And then after he was delivered, everything was fine, and I was fine, except that his blood sugar kept dropping.

So I was nursing as much as I could.

This was completely new territory to me.

And at that time, there were red flags that I did not notice.

Things were happening with myself that had never happened before, where I was just randomly crying, and I didn't know why.

I think I was in shock, but I would just start crying uncontrollably, and I couldn't even tell you what emotion I was feeling.

So I think that, for me, was a red flag looking back, that this was just going to be a different experience.

So we were finally able, by giving the baby some formula, and I know, you know, guys, I'm sure there are going to be purists who are going to give all these reasons why.

We just did the best we could with the help of our medical team right there.

I was a hardcore breastfeeding mom, and I saw the health of my baby in jeopardy.

We went ahead and gave him some formula, and he was fine, and we were able to go home, as opposed to going to the NICU.

So we went home, and I was recovering from my C-section, but I was still in tremendous pain, and breastfeeding was a huge struggle.

It took me a little while to finally reach out to a lactation consultant who really, she like held my hand the entire time.

Breastfeeding that had been super easy with my other kids was a painful, excruciating struggle, and again, on top of the sleep deprivation, and my baby also had a tongue tie not as severe as Theo's, but I had never had a baby with a tongue tie before, and all of the struggle that goes with that.

So, right, that perfect storm at about six weeks, where I went to my OB for that six-week follow-up, and found out that my C-section actually had become infected, and that was part of the reason I felt so awful, and I didn't know that I had had an infection, and the baby went and had his tongue tie revised, which was necessary, but such a difficult process, and then the healing steps that go with that, like the therapy you have to do with your own baby is unpleasant.

Let's just say it's unpleasant.

And having to deal with all of that emotionally, six weeks postpartum, and then I know you were dealing with issues with dealing with your insurance company.

I remember you getting so, it was just, it was a flaming hot mess.

That's a lot.

It was a lot.

It was kind of the perfect storm for us to mentally not be doing well.

So I remember us messaging back and forth, and you messaging me about how overwhelmed you were, and then I would message Keith.

I'd be like, I think you need to check on your wife.

Not that he wasn't, but I was just really worried for you.

At that point, I think I was slower in getting into that kind of overwhelmed stage.

You have younger children at home, I think, which just made the fatigue so much harder.

My kids are a little older, but I think that painful, emotional, you know, just struggling to cope, and just wondering why won't my brain do what it did last time, where I just have this baby, and then I jump back into life.

So I remember it was, that was such a hard time.

That was super hard time.

And I think, just to add to what you said, and going back and remembering, to me, when I went back for my six-week checkup, I was feeling all of these things.

But the doctor, I mean, the OB, the office gave me like a piece of paper, and I just remember thinking, if I write down really what I'm really feeling, are they going to take my baby away? I mean, I didn't have thoughts of hurting him or hurting myself, but it just, the support wasn't there at all.

I didn't feel like, what would I do? I filled out so many, I forget there's a name for those forms, that emotional, and I didn't have the textbook depression symptoms.

Mine was much more anxiety, anxiety-driven.

And the questions didn't handle anxiety.

It was just like, are you sad? And I didn't feel sad, I just felt cripplingly anxious about so many things.

So I don't know who we need to talk to to get those questionnaires improved, and to get the follow-up improved, but that is something that really would be wonderful, that system got better.

And could catch it even earlier, because, I mean, I was feeling these things right away.

And some of the same, I dealt with maybe a mixture at different times, but sometimes the depression was overwhelming, and then sometimes the anxiety, or together, both together, it was truly, it's now at 10 and a half months postpartum, it's much different, but I look back at that time, and think even the simplest of things, that making dinner, or being able to do anything at home, I mean, I just felt like true survival mode.

And it was just so hard, and so painful, and I just think, we think that more people need to know what to look for.

What were some of the red flags for you, where you were like, okay, this is more than me just feeling like I'm having a bad day.

Like this is something where I really, I need to get, I need to talk to somebody.

It's time to get a professional involved.

That's a good question, Jen.

For me, I started, I think, crying.

I just would cry throughout the day, not even just, physically it was hard, recovering from childbirth, he had a severe tongue tie, nursing was very painful, I mean, that sort of thing, but more than that.

It was, just throughout the day, I would wake up with just overwhelming sadness, thinking that I had to do this again, that I have this brand new baby, and I looked at him like he was my baby, but more so like I have to take care of him, like a burden.

I hate to say this, because I, and it's not me that, and I've learned so much through this process, but the depression was making it feel like, that he was just a burden, like I had to care for him, but I didn't feel that connection to him.

And it was just so painful during that time.

So I knew something was wrong in my feelings, and I knew something was wrong with the constant sadness and crying, and just emotional, or just the way that I felt all of the time, just very sad.

And then when I would be away from him, if he did sleep for a stretch, the anxiety would kick in, and I would think, is something wrong with him? So I mean, I couldn't really, I didn't sleep during that time, because any stretch of sleep I had, I was checking the monitor, making sure he was breathing okay, or that he was okay, and that I would cry because I wasn't sleeping.

So the two together, anxiety and depression, really double teamed me.

Well, what about you? How did you know that it was more than just the baby blues? Yeah.

Well, I knew it was definitely different from how I felt with my other pregnancies.

Like I just didn't, again, and they, so I just want to plug this book.

This isn't what I expected.

This book, we both have it, we both brought it, but such a good book.

And I just didn't feel like myself.

I felt like in my head, I just was a different person.

I wasn't responding to things how I usually did.

I was usually pretty upbeat, laid back person, and again, right, the anxiety, like I was afraid I was going to hurt my baby constantly.

I felt like I couldn't lay him down because something bad was going to happen to him.

I was afraid if I held him, something bad was going to happen to him.

I was afraid I was underfeeding him.

I was afraid he was starving.

I was just like, and it is irrational.

It's like the depression and the anxiety, it is an irrational fear.

And that's something that I think it's really important that people understand is that it is not based on reason at all.

You can't really reason with it.

I mean, there are things you want to speak truth, and that's something that we'll probably talk more about.

And it's so important to really cling to what you know is true, because the anxiety and the depression, it's a liar, and it's cruel.

It will just make these standards and expectations you cannot hold or keep.

So for me, right, because the anxiety became so crippling, making decisions was overwhelming.

And I remember, I remember it so vividly.

I was at the Dollar Tree, and I was, maybe it was for Christmas.

It was something, I was trying to just shop a little bit.

Leaving the house was so hard.

And I was just trying to do some shopping.

And I remember being in line and then feeling like the walls were closing in on me.

I mean, I was just having a panic attack.

And I came home, and I messaged you.

And because I just, I had never really had a panic attack like that before.

And I remember talking to you about my symptoms, and you were like, Jen, that is postpartum depression.

So that was really, and I was like, what? I don't have that.

I mean, I think at that point, because I was a little farther, if that's Christmas time, I was like two or three months along after, after delivery.

And I think that's when my issues really peaked.

It took some time.

I was like four or five months postpartum when things like December, January is when, I mean, I have a note of things that I wrote down to talk to my counselor or a therapist.

And talking about how you, I would feel okay, I'd be having a great morning, and then something would happen.

And it was like being shot by a gun.

Like it was just, and then the rest of the day would be recovering from that.

Yeah.

So I think it just took, again, it just took a friend, a friend who knew, saying, okay, this is what's going on.

Because for some reason, it was just so hard.

Did you come to the realization yourself? Or did you, did someone have to help you see that? Or you just knew, you just kind of knew that there was something wrong.

I kind of knew that there was something wrong.

Because what I had, what I, little bit that I knew about postpartum depression, or the baby, with my other, my last pregnancy, I felt sad, but not anywhere to the extent that I was with this pregnancy.

So I remember at the time, it was called the baby blues.

And I've learned more about that since, but I was able pretty quickly to say, this is something else.

This is not just that.

So if you're listening, and you have just had a baby, this can happen actually anytime your first year.

Yeah.

You're still in your postpartum.

Like Jen and I are still in our postpartum period, and our babies are over 10 months old.

Yeah.

And we were just saying off camera, like before we started, that we don't feel completely well.

Like we still have days that we are wrestling with the depression and the anxiety.

And it's great to have a friend.

Yeah.

Such a great friend.

Yeah.

And like, we talk probably almost every day, don't we? Yeah.

We ask each other, how are you doing today? You know? And it's wonderful.

Yeah.

I'm not going to cry.

Me too.

I was just thinking that.

I was like, for me, the height of it was Thanksgiving to Christmas in that range.

Oh my goodness.

Yes.

So I was probably two to three months postpartum was the Thanksgiving, probably the time being the worst for me.

But I remember you reaching out every day, and that was just something to look for.

Like you really helped me so much during that time, and we didn't know that we needed that.

But let's backtrack a little bit.

What is, how would you define postpartum depression? What is it? Well, and that's hard, because I think for so many people, it could be something very different.

Like, I think you and I, we had some similarities in our experiences, but there were some differences as well.

So like, I think for some ladies, it's just feeling completely overwhelmed.

Like, I didn't necessarily have the sadness, but I had the overwhelmed feeling where like basic things that shouldn't be huge felt insurmountable.

And I did have the baby blues initially too, which I think should have been a red flag to me, but I didn't know.

If you have just constant crying and you don't know why, or like you just emotionally feel extremely fragile, I think fatigue was a huge trigger for me.

Like if I was exhausted, and I was exhausted, everything was so much worse.

So I know we're going to talk more about like things that helped, but fatigue and just feeling so isolated, because it is kind of lonely.

There's a big stigma.

So it's hard to know.

I mean, we are taking a risk sharing this with everyone, because I think unfortunately in the church, in the Christian community, there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding.

And so there's a tendency for people to say, we'll just pray more.

And we of course should bathe everything that we do in faith and in prayer.

But just like you would go to the doctor when you're sick, I think, you know, there are resources the Lord gives us to help us overcome depression, anxiety, which is, it is a sickness.

That's right.

And hear this too, listener, you did not, this is not like something that you did.

You did not do anything wrong.

I remember that from the first session with the counselor, I was crying the whole time.

And she said, you have to listen and believe this.

Like this is postpartum depression.

This is not something that you've done.

So if you're feeling this way, and you're looking at that sweet baby, and you're thinking, why do I feel these things? It's not rational, because it's not rational.

It doesn't make sense.

But there's so many people, so many women feel this, and they don't understand it.

And I don't think there's enough education about it, especially within the church.

So that's one reason Jen and I talked, you know, or decided that we wanted to share.

Yeah, to show that really, it can happen to anyone.

And it does happen to anyone.

I mean, the hard thing, the statistics are not good, as far as like how many women actually struggle with some form of postpartum depression.

There's a lot, there's a lot of women, and only a few of them actually get the help that they need.

I mean, you make it through.

Usually, we make it through that first year, but I think there should be more resources, more conversations, more awareness.

And I think too, you know, we hope to maybe at some point bring our husbands on to talk about their perspective, because having an engaged, loving husband, I know for me, was critical.

And I think too, with like, with depression, with postpartum depression, there are so many different triggers for it.

Like the name of this book is This Isn't What I Expected.

And for my life, I mean, my youngest was 15.

So I was on a certain trajectory, like I hadn't had to think about baby stuff for 15 years, I thought my next baby I held would be a grandchild.

So having my life take a dramatic turn was hard.

It's just hard for our brains to adjust.

It's hard for our expectations to adjust.

Not that I didn't love or want my sweet little baby, I mean, I did, but it was definitely not what I was expecting.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's very good.

That's so true.

And same.

I mean, I just, in my mind, I, my youngest is soon to be six.

So I was, I mean, my house is not baby proofed.

Well, it is now, it's becoming baby proofed, because he's on the move now.

But I mean, that, it was, and I was moving into a different season also.

So again, I don't know.

And there's a whole stigma.

I guess we could probably do a whole podcast about being an older mom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it is different.

It's definitely different.

And there's not a lot of information on that either.

Like I remember talking to my OB and asking, you know, is my recovery going to be harder? I'm like, I was asking all the questions.

Is my recovery going to be harder? Is it going to be harder to nurse? You know, what can I expect? Is it going to be harder to recover from a C-section? And for all of that, I was like, sure, I was told no.

And I don't really think that was totally accurate.

Maybe they just didn't have the information they needed, which is entirely possible.

But I feel like as an older mom, I could have been so much better prepared if there was better information out there.

So I don't know.

Whoever needs to do that, get on it.

Yeah.

And the same way, you know, we delivered at the same place, but the automatic, you know, wanting you to be induced for no other reason other than the age, I just found that incredibly difficult because it's like, I mean, the health, I was induced also.

And I was willing to do, you know, anything that the doctor, you know, could for the health of my baby.

But at the same time, it's like, there's no blood pressure issue.

There's no, there's no other like outside issue other than my age.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even though I was, I experienced that too, even though it was perfectly healthy.

I mean, I taught my fitness classes all the way up until the week before I delivered, you know, super healthy, super active.

It was not, it didn't matter.

So yeah, that was a struggle.

So Jen, what were your first steps towards recovery? Definitely reaching out to a friend.

So if you're listening to this and something feels not right, don't try to define it.

Don't try to, if you just feel not right, just reach out to a trusted friend and tell them you feel not right.

I think we feel like we have to fit in a box, you know, oh, well, I have to check all the well, if I don't check it all, you know, if I'm not on the scale just right, then don't worry about any of that because depression can strike us all differently.

So if you just don't feel like yourself, you feel like something is off, please reach out to a trusted friend and talk to them because that was huge.

I think that was big for both of us.

And then talking to a therapist was tremendous.

I underestimated how helpful it was going to be.

She's a wonderful Christian lady.

She deals with a lot of postpartum women and she was, is, because I still see her, wonderful.

Like she, I feel like she was a voice of sanity when I felt crazy.

And she really helped me just see things clearly because whenever you're dealing with anxiety and depression, it is irrational.

It's hard to think, it's hard to make decisions.

You feel like a crazy person.

And I remember saying that to her, I think I said it to you too, I feel crazy.

I knew I just wasn't myself.

And so that's something that I love that she has done is she, she kind of separates out and she talks about like how anxiety just tangles itself in your mind and in your life.

And she's like, and we try to tease those things out.

And as we get better and better, it is more teased apart so that anxiety is less so solidified in your mind and in your life.

And whenever I still deal with things, she'll say, okay, that is the anxiety talking.

That is not you.

And that's so helpful because it starts feeling like you're a different person.

I mean, I felt like this is who I am now.

I am forever going to be an emotionally sick person, which is a pretty awful feeling.

So talking to her, really just getting the professional involved was a turning point for me.

It was for me too.

I was trying to figure out because I, I knew sort of what it was or what I thought that it would be.

I didn't know much about postpartum depression and I knew after that six week checkup that I couldn't trust or didn't feel like I could trust my OB to help me.

I started looking for resources and that's where I found her.

And she recommended the book and I read the book and I would recommend this to anybody.

This would be a great gift.

I wish I would have read this before.

Like maybe this would be a good baby shower gift for expecting mommas.

Is that gloomy? I don't know.

Or just a reference, just keep it so if someone in your life, yeah, maybe that is gloomy.

I don't know.

But I wish I would have known more about it.

I mean, I think I could have saved myself a lot of struggle at the beginning of everything to know.

But it has some quizzes in here that kind of you can go through.

It talks about the difference between postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and postpartum OCD.

You know, I didn't know those things were a thing.

And another thing kind of going back to I thought about the need for the podcast was you see these stories on TV like recently a doctor.

I don't know.

I mean, I haven't looked more into it to see if it was, I mean, it was definitely her postpartum.

She was four months postpartum, but she killed herself and she killed her four-month-old baby.

So and you see these things in the news from time to time and you think that's, I mean, that is an extreme case, you know, postpartum psychosis more than likely.

But I don't know.

I just feel like if we had the resources to talk to someone or if it wasn't such a stigma attached to it that, you know, we, I think we should help each other.

And that poor mama, like she was probably super high functioning, go get her, make it happen.

She was a doctor and, you know, and then she had this baby and she probably didn't, she couldn't see, she didn't know who she was anymore.

Like, and when you feel like there's no way out, unfortunately, like suicide is a way out.

And I mean, it's absolutely awful, right? So there is a way out.

There is help.

There is recovery.

And I think sometimes too, you know, we women, we have to swallow our pride.

We have to believe that we can't do it all.

I mean, I think the world tells us we can do it all, have it all, be it all.

And that's not necessarily true.

You know, I think there's a time to, to check our ego and go, okay, for the best of my family, for my children, I'm going to get help and have some humility about that and get the help that we need.

So it's definitely, there's like multi-facets, like I know for me, owning a business, and I mean, I've certainly 110% go-getter.

Anybody that knows me knows that I'm just like on it.

And like, since having the baby, that has all changed.

And some of that is still just recovering from the anxiety and just not letting it grip me.

And some of it is just now I have a baby.

So babies require lots of time and attention, lots and lots.

So you know, it's just going to, having a baby will change your life.

I mean, in a wonderful, amazing way.

Like our little boys are so precious.

Like they are the MVPs of the home.

I was like, does anybody else matter? Can you imagine your life without them? Oh my goodness, no.

I cannot without Theo either.

I mean, they are just the most charming little things.

And so, and of course, then we have guilt and it's like, oh my goodness, why am I not so happy about having this sweet little person? You know, so it is just such a multifaceted, we just have to be real with ourselves and allow things to be where they are right now.

This is a stage.

This is a stage where we're taking care of tiny people and it is extremely demanding.

And I think the age factor does play a role where we just don't have the energy we had when we were 20 and 30.

I mean, I don't care what the magazine tells you, you know.

We just don't have the energy.

And so, it is a challenge, but definitely if you just feel not right, or if you know someone, like I know with us, with our conversations, you were just saying how overwhelmed you were.

And I just felt this weight in my heart for you and I was worried, you know.

So, if you have a friend who had a baby, you know, I think that's something that's been really helpful through this, is I know what to ask now.

I know what to say.

So, maybe don't give them this book at the baby shower, but maybe keep it on your shelf so that you can, when you ask them and you check in and you tell them, be honest.

Because we tend to say, oh, I'm fine, we're good.

Everything's great.

And like, we're really crumbling inside.

So I know what to ask to, you know, to hopefully draw and identify so that these mommas will get help.

I know.

Have you feel, have you discovered that there are so many more women than you realized? Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, big time.

Yeah.

Yeah, something that we don't talk about, but most women deal with in some way.

And I didn't know that until going through it, how common it is.

A lot of my Facebook groups and other momma groups and even within, you know, the congregation or other area, you know, other surrounding congregations, it's not uncommon to hear about.

And the sad thing to me, too, is like in the church, sometimes I feel like there's a momma I'm talking to and I want to gently maybe introduce the idea that they might be struggling with postpartum depression and sometimes I get some very strong pushback and it breaks my heart because I'm like, okay, this poor momma is drowning and she has listened to the stigma that, oh, well, if you have any sort of depression, then you're just, you know, you don't have faith, which is such a lie.

That is such a lie.

And is that the prosperity movement? Where does that garbage come from? Who's thinking that sounds like that? Garbage.

Sorry.

But you know, these mommas need to know this isn't because there's anything wrong with their walk with Jesus.

You know, it is not because they don't have faith.

It's not because they haven't prayed enough.

It's not because they're a bad person.

It is because there are chemicals and hormones and exhaustion and we are just frail creatures.

And sometimes we just need to reach out and get some help and allow our community to come around us, too.

And I want to speak to that, too, because we communicated daily, but I had another, I have another friend, Richard, who is on the podcast We Keep Sometimes.

Well, he and his wife, and they have a teenage daughter who's very dear to me.

And during the hardest point, she came, she's homeschooled, and she would come, even just sit with me.

And I remember the first time, Theo, I was at the height of everything, he was maybe two months old, and she reached her arms out, like, can I just hold him? And just to have her, like, where I could drink a cup of coffee and have her hold my baby and just sit and talk to me, we just talked a lot.

And that was so comforting to me, like, she'll just, that family and her will just always have a special place in my heart.

But I feel like we should do that within our congregation.

So I pray through this experience, what has happened to me, that I'll be much more sensitive to the needs of the other women that are having babies around me.

And to be able, like you said, like, can I just come hold your baby for you while you take a shower, while you take a nap? Yeah.

And I had another, a dear woman in our congregation come over, and she made me, like, some delicious food, very healthy food.

You brought me these delicious, like, for, I forgot what they were called.

They were like little protein balls.

Yes, it's when we were both, like, struggling so much with breastfeeding.

And that was a huge trigger, I know, for both of us.

Like, wanting to breastfeed the baby, and I know for myself, like, I remember telling my lactate, or maybe it was my, I don't know, I don't remember.

And that's something, I'm just going to side comment too.

My memory of some of the time, whenever I was having my worst case of anxiety, my memory is awful.

Like, I can't, I struggle to remember things.

So fun side effect.

But I remember, we were just struggling so much with nursing.

And that was new territory for me.

In the past, I just popped that baby out, stuck him on my boob, he ate, we were happy, we got on with life.

Same thing.

Yeah.

No trouble.

But I think the six weeks with the tongue tie, with everything, he wasn't latching very well.

Yeah.

It was, I had to supplement, because he just looked hungry all of the time.

I mean, it was just a...

And that guilt too, I'd like to talk about that for a moment.

If you are experiencing what we're experiencing, or not, and you're having trouble, it is not a sin to supplement with formula your baby.

I don't care what anyone says, a fed baby is the best way.

Yes.

A fed baby is a happy baby.

A happy baby is a happy mama.

Just like to say that.

You may be listening, thinking, who in the world would do that? Well, there are people that will do that, so supplement.

Yeah.

Well, there are, I mean, and I think we need a breastfeeding community.

I love my breastfeeding community, but I think there are a lot of purists who can be uncompassionate.

And right, I know for myself, I also had to supplement.

And I think part of that is just being older, and with the stress, and the trauma, and the exhaustion, your body just struggles.

Our bodies were just struggling.

And they will tell you that if you supplement, then you're going to hurt your supply.

And there's, you talk to your lactation consultant, and you get your own information.

But from my experience, I was able to supplement, and then eventually wean him off the supplementation, and go straight to nursing, and only nurse.

So it is possible.

They will scare you and say, oh, you're going to ruin your milk, your milk production.

You won't.

You know, I mean, be smart about it, but, and even if you do end up having to wean that baby and use formula completely, a fed baby is best.

I feel like us as mamas, we try our best.

Yeah.

We just want to do our best, and a fed baby is best.

So, and like you, I supplemented, and I was able to resume to nurse only, but I, you know, at the same time, I just really, on top of all of the other emotions I was feeling, I was beating myself up about that.

But really, at the end of the day, you're much more, okay, we're gen squared.

She's like healthy gen.

My kids, I thought about it later on, and I'm like, wow, you know, I might get some flack for this, but my children would be eating chicken nuggets when they're three anyway for McDonald's.

I know.

Whether I nurse them exclusively or not.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

So we had this conversation.

I had this conversation with my family just the other day.

So I'm really trying, I'm breastfeeding my baby, the best food on the planet, organic food.

I'm getting like these fancy eggs, so I can feed him fancy eggs for breakfast.

You know what he wants to eat? He wants to eat bugs.

He wants to eat bugs off the floor, garbage, anything he can find.

I mean, like he's refusing healthy food, but he wants to eat garbage.

And I'm like, why am I beating myself up over this? Yeah, they'll still try to eat food off the floor in Walmart, regardless of whether you're trying to be organic and healthy or what.

It's true.

They don't care.

So yeah, so cut yourself some slack.

Cut yourself some slack.

We need to do that more as moms.

And reach out to us.

We can get our information, like our Facebook information or email.

If you don't have anyone that you feel like you can bring this to.

Yes.

Yes.

Please, please message us.

If you feel like you don't have anybody to talk to, and unfortunately, I feel like in the Christian community, there aren't always a lot of safe places to share that you're having emotional struggles.

Please reach out to us.

And don't be afraid to get professional help.

Like in one of my mommy's groups, I had this poor mommy.

She had like a 19-month-old and a four-month-old, and it was so hard.

And she admitted in this group to a bunch of strangers that she is drowning.

And she said, I don't want to get professional help.

I just want to pray.

So I commented and I was like, get professional help.

Your insurance will probably cover it.

I know my insurance covers it for me.

Mine too.

And there are so many wonderful Christian counselors who understand, who can give you the tools that you need right now.

So don't feel like you're somehow selling out or that's a bad thing.

God gives us these tools for us to use.

Let's use them.

And it doesn't mean necessarily, I know that there's a big, we didn't touch on this about medicine, taking medicine.

It's covered in the book, but that doesn't mean necessarily if you say, I'm not ready to do that, but just start a conversation with someone.

I mean, that's really, that's what's helped us the best.

Well, just to close or just something I was thinking about, I was like, you know, we as Christian women, we're talking to a Christian audience.

I mean, I got so much, I received so much comfort throughout all of this by reading the Psalms and praying, talking to God, asking him to remove this, these feelings for me and going through this time, like especially like at the depth of it.

I just really, but just, you know, but I feel closer to God in such an amazing way that I didn't feel because it's one thing, you know, and I believe, you know, I've been a Christian for many years and I trust what God says, I believe, but sometimes like experiencing pain the way that this is, and it's in a way, at least in my opinion, it's brought me closer to him.

I mean, it's brought me closer in my faith to him.

And it's been, I mean, it's been an educational journey.

Now, I mean, having been on the other side of it, knowing it's just a knowledge that I didn't have before.

So whenever I see other women who are struggling with it, I don't just have a theoretical knowledge of it, I like actually, I more or less actually know what it is that they're going through.

And for that, I'm thankful, not that I would want to go through it again, and I am looking forward to seeing the backside of it and being completely well, but yeah, like just clinging to the truth, whenever you feel like your mind is out of sorts, it makes you cling to the truth even more because you need it, you need that anger.

That's right.

He is close to the brokenhearted, and for those crushed in spirit, I mean, we can just hold on to him.

It's not like he's not a distant God, like far away, like he, I don't know, just thinking about what Jesus endured, I mean, just on so much of a greater scale than postpartum depression, of course, but just thinking about the agony that he felt, I just drew comfort from that.

And I wanted to share a scripture, it's 2 Corinthians, let's see, let's see, 2 Corinthians verses three, three through five, blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

So, I mean, I think that reading that kind of was a good, like we hope to be able to comfort those that are listening, but he is the God of all comfort, like he gives that to us.

We can trust him.

He is our refuge and our strength and our time, you know, our help in times of trouble.

If you're listening, reach out, number one, order this book, number two, please.

It's called This Isn't What I Expected, Overcoming Postpartum Depression, yeah.

But Christian, you're never alone.

You are not.

We, you know, we don't receive Jesus and he's distant, far off, you know, anything.

I mean, he is there with us.

Well, the scripture says, you know, can a mother forget the baby nursing at his breast? Neither can the Lord forget you.

I mean, it's like how close and tender and intimate, you know, that relationship is and can be.

Something that was a challenge was prioritizing ourselves.

And I know that was huge.

I'm used to being very independent.

And so requiring so much care, like I remember saying to my therapist, I feel as needy as the baby and being upset, like I shouldn't be that needy.

And she would have to dial me back and go, whoa, whoa, you have just been through major abdominal surgery and you have had a major life change and you are, you're struggling.

It is okay to be needy.

And so that was really good for me to hear.

Like there was a point of time, it felt so luxurious, like, because I wasn't healing and I had an infection and my emotional state was garbage.

And so I would try to get a nap and a bath almost every day.

And I felt ridiculously luxurious, you know, what mother can expect, but, but sadly or not, like that is what was required for my body to heal.

Like it was when I was doing that, when I was resting and I was giving myself some extra care, um, that really was a turning point for me for getting better.

Marianne, like do you have something similar? I did.

I, I'm trying to think back to that time.

My memory.

I know.

What you said about your memory.

It's, it's a thing.

It is a thing.

Like the traumatic is like blacked out.

Yes.

Yes.

Um, I saw, I don't know.

I watched, I watched some YouTube videos.

So it's real, right? Cause it was on YouTube.

Yeah, that's right.

But it's true when you've been through traumatic experiences, when you've had heightened situations of stress, your, um, your memory takes a hit.

Well, I was struggling a lot with sleep because my anxiety was struggling because I thought that I needed to be awake for him, even though he would be sleeping.

I couldn't sleep even though the baby was sleeping.

So I went through this pattern for several weeks and, um, my mother-in-law, if she's listening, I love her very dearly, Patty.

She would get off of work.

She would work like 40 hours at a week.

Um, and she has a job where she drives everywhere, but she would come and she would say, you go to bed.

I will stay up all night if I have to.

And I will be there.

And I remember feeling guilty about that and talking to the therapist about that.

Like, you know, and she said, don't be afraid to ask your community, your, the people with you to help you.

Like it's a lot for one person.

I mean, I'm managing having a baby, managing him, you know, um, but she would tell me like not to be afraid, like it's not wrong to ask for help for those around.

So I, um, I meant to talk about her earlier, but it just, I just thought about her that she would do that and out of so much love for me as well as for him, like she would come during those times.

My parents did that for me as well.

Like my dad would message me and be like, can I come hang out with Micah for a few hours, which was code for, I'm going to hold him and you're going to go take a nap or, you know, or you're going to go take a shower or yours.

And it was wonderful knowing, you know, I had willing family willing to help.

I know not everybody has that.

And hopefully if you're someone that says my family, maybe I'm a military wife and I'm here, you know, alone, I don't have that.

You know, I would just, again, tell you, please talk to your church.

Yes.

If you're not in a good loving church, get in one yesterday and don't use the excuse.

I have a baby, I have an infant, I have a toddler.

Bring them.

Yeah.

We're there.

We're there with our babies.

And we sit, do you sit by yourself in church? I have ladies who are like, I don't want to sit by myself in church.

You know who sits by herself every single Sunday is usually the pastor's wife.

I don't get to sit with my husband.

You can come sit with me.

I don't either.

Yeah.

I don't either.

I, um, yeah, usually it's Ashley and then she sits on one end and we box the kids.

Oh, I guess we're not by ourselves.

We have all our children.

So.

But now, um, does he crawl to try to get away from you? Oh, well, we have nursery.

Oh, okay.

Well, my.

Yes.

Yes.

We do make it to the nursery eventually, but he, um, yeah, it's just, it's difficult, but don't let that stop you.

Because if you think I'll come after this or I'll come when he's two years old or two is difficult, the terrible twos, three, four, I mean, that can just turn into you're not in church forever.

And this, you know, when your baby's little and you're making all these adjustments in your life, I mean, that is when you need community.

So get plugged into the church, go to the ladies Bible study, find some older ladies there, make them your friends, make them be your friends, you know, it's, it's okay.

We need that community.

And I love like at a Bible study, I'll bring Theo and then pass him off like a hot potato.

And he gets held by different, um, my sisters, um, you know, and it, I feel sometimes like baby therapy is the way, I mean, they love to hold, of course I get him when he's screaming or crying or hungry, but I digress.

But just to have a baby, cause for some of these women that are older, you know, they haven't held a baby in a long time.

It's just something special about that.

Yeah, for sure.

But I think, you know, as younger moms, they, there are so many younger moms who don't know what to do with themselves, you know, they feel stuck or they feel lonely or they feel like trapped by situations, blah, blah, blah.

And, um, our culture is so anti-community, I mean, which seems weird to say because there's like on Facebook, there's so many communities, but social, like social networking, that is not the same thing as a flesh and blood friend who will like hang out with you.

Same way with church.

It's not the same thing or a podcast.

It's not the same thing.

You have to be in a local body, listening to a real preacher.

Under the oversight of real elders, where they see your face and they talk to you.

So I'm thankful for you.

I'm thankful for you.

I know this, this has been the silver lining of the struggle is our friendship, I think.

One of the silver linings.

We're cushy.

Thank you for joining us.

I think that's a wrap.

That's a wrap.