Experiencing Postpartum Depression Together (Jen2 Podcast Premier)

Introducing the Jen2 Podcast and Their Postpartum Journey

We're a little bossy. It's okay. We're older. We're allowed to be bossy. Do this. Do that. Do you need somebody to tell you what to do? We could do that.

Hello, everyone. My name is Jennifer Foskey, and this is my good friend, Jennifer Bratt. Oh, sorry. Jennifer Bratt, sure. Good morning. Hi. Okay, so Jen and I are here today to talk to you about our postpartum experience.

But before we do that, let's tell you a little bit about who we are.

So I'm Jen Bradsher, and let's see, I guess we've lived in this area. My husband's been a pastor of Grace Church since 2009. I've got now five children, almost 23-year-old, 20-year-old, almost 18-year-old, 15-year-old, and then a 10-and-a-half-month-old.

I own a business. I own a Jazzercise Fitness Center in Fernandina Beach. So I am what would also be considered an older mom. I don't know if we've got to disclose our ages, but I am an older mom, and my husband's a pastor, and I'm a homeschool mom.

Super busy. I like to stay busy, and I'm excited that we're going to talk about this last year.

And this is deeply personal for both of us, but I'm excited to share with you our story. But I'm Jen Foskey, Jennifer Foskey, and I'm a pastor's wife. I was going to almost say a homeschool mom too, but this year I'm a private school mom.

I have three of my kids. I have a 6, 8, and almost 6, 8, and 10-year-old that are in school. And I have a 10-month, 10-and-a-half-month-old baby boy who's currently playing with her baby boy. And I have two older, much older children that are 25 and almost 23.

Postpartum Depression, Pregnancy Loss, and the Need for Care

So I did want to go ahead and preface that what we're going to be talking about today is kind of a delicate topic. We're going to be talking about depression and pregnancy loss and some things that might be kind of troubling for some people to hear about.

So just a red flag about that. And also, we are not health care professionals, so whatever we say, you know, every situation is different. Please don't use this as medical advice. Always go to your doctor.

We're just sharing our experiences and trying to raise awareness for postpartum depression in women in general, and then I think also in women that are a little bit older to just raise awareness and help people kind of understand more, because there's a lot of misconceptions and stigmas.

And if you're listening to this podcast, I mean, surely there are women in your church that may be expecting, or if you're a younger mom. It doesn't happen only to older moms. It can happen to any mom, regardless of if this is your first child or your fifth child or, you know, beyond.

I mean, it can happen at any pregnancy to anybody. So, you know, I'm hoping that as you listen to this, if you're thinking, you know, I'm a man. What do I need to know about this for? Well, it affects everyone, and it affects far more people I have learned over the last year than I ever that I understood before.

Yeah, a lot of people think it won't happen to them. I was that person. Me too. Yeah, yeah. Well, do we want to talk about our birth experiences? Sure. Do you want to go first this time?

Go ahead. Well, I'll begin with my son Theodore was my, I was very surprised when I found out that we were expecting. Because I had suffered some miscarriages before him, and I had turned 40, well, I was 41 when I found out that I was pregnant with him.

And I thought that I was ending my, you know, childbearing time. So I'll begin with that. So really the first month or two, I mean, I was on top of morning sickness. I was just in a state of I'm not sure that we're even going to make it to term.

And I didn't have that initial connection, I guess you could say, or just belief that I was going to carry a full-term pregnancy. But as the time went on, and my stomach was getting larger, and all of the signs and doctor's appointments and ultrasounds, everything was perfect, blood work.

You know, we were excited to meet him. And, you know, my pregnancy and delivery, you know, I didn't have any sadness. I mean, it was just similar to my other children. And he is my fourth biological child, too.

So that gives, you know, I'm not a first-time mom. So with that, I thought that, but after having him, I noticed right away he was born with a tongue tie, a severe tongue tie. I mean, I remember after I delivered him, the nurse put him on my chest and said, wow, he is very tied.

His tongue is very tied. I did not know what that meant. I had never heard of that before. But we struggled the first, until we could get that revised when he was six weeks old, every day was a struggle.

He had colic. He didn't nurse very well. He couldn't take a bottle very well either. And he was miserable, and we were miserable trying to care for him. So that was the real beginning of everything. It was the first six weeks looking back were such a sleepless blur.

But after he was, the tongue tie was revised, and we were finding success in feeding him, I thought, okay, well, this sadness that I felt would be over now, because surely our life is somewhat on a rhythm.

But I didn't experience that. But I'll stop there, and we'll pick up more about the depression. But that's the first six weeks after having Theodore. Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny. I had, so my pregnancy, so again, I thought I was premenopausal, because I was 43 when I found out I was pregnant. It was a humongous shock, humongous shock. And I had a great pregnancy, but my last pregnancy about 10 years ago was also a miscarriage.

So I, again, had probably that first 20 weeks where you're just, it's hard to form that relationship with the baby, because you're afraid you're going to lose the baby. So after about 20 weeks, I finally started to feel the bond, you know, and I expected to just go into labor, push that baby out, go home, and it would be great.

And it did not go that way. They wanted to induce me early, and I think because being older, I'm high risk, and I was totally fine with doing whatever kept my baby healthy and safe. So they induced me early, but I think my due date was wrong.

So I was probably, instead of a week early, I was probably more like two weeks early, and my body didn't want to go into labor. So the baby was in distress, so they ended up doing not exactly an emergency C-section, but it was as close as it could be without being an emergency C-section.

And then after he was delivered, everything was fine, and I was fine, except that his blood sugar kept dropping. So I was nursing as much as I could. This was completely new territory to me, and at that time, there were red flags that I did not notice.

Things were happening with myself that had never happened before, where I was just randomly crying, and I didn't know why. I think I was in shock, but I would just start crying uncontrollably, and I couldn't even tell you what emotion I was feeling.

So I think that, for me, was a red flag looking back, that this was just going to be a different experience. So we were finally able, by giving the baby some formula, and I know, you know, guys, I'm sure there are going to be purists who are going to give all these reasons why.

We just did the best we could with the help of our medical team right there. I was a hardcore breastfeeding mom, and I saw the health of my baby in jeopardy. We went ahead and gave him some formula, and he was fine, and we were able to go home, as opposed to going to the NICU.

So we went home, and I was recovering from my C-section, but I was still in tremendous pain, and breastfeeding was a huge struggle. It took me a little while to finally reach out to a lactation consultant who really, she like held my hand the entire time.

Breastfeeding that had been super easy with my other kids was a painful, excruciating struggle. And again, on top of the sleep deprivation, and my baby also had a tongue tie not as severe as Theo's, but I had never had a baby with a tongue tie before, and all of the struggle that goes with that.

So, right, that perfect storm at about six weeks, where I went to my OB for that six-week follow-up, and found out that my C-section actually had become infected, and that was part of the reason I felt so awful, and I didn't know that I had had an infection, and the baby went and had his tongue tie revised, which was necessary, but such a difficult process.

And then the healing steps that go with that, like the therapy you have to do with your own baby is unpleasant. Let's just say it's unpleasant. And having to deal with all of that emotionally six weeks postpartum, and then I know you were dealing with issues with dealing with your insurance company.

I remember you getting so it was a flaming hot mess. That's a lot. It was a lot. It was kind of the perfect storm for us to mentally not be doing well. So I remember us messaging back and forth, and you messaging me about how overwhelmed you were, and then I would message Keith.

I'd be like, I think you need to check on your wife. Not that he wasn't, but I was just really worried for you. At that point, I think I was slower in getting into that kind of overwhelmed stage. You have younger children at home, I think, which just made the fatigue so much harder.

My kids are a little older, but I think that painful, emotional, just struggling to cope, and just wondering why won't my brain do what it did last time, where I just have this baby, and then I jump back into life.

So I remember that was such a hard time. That was a super hard time.

Recognizing Postpartum Depression and Anxiety Symptoms

I think, just to add to what you said, and going back and remembering, to me, when I went back for my six-week checkup, I was feeling all of these things. But the OB, the office gave me a piece of paper, and I just remember thinking, if I write down really what I'm really feeling, are they going to take my baby away?

I didn't have thoughts of hurting him or hurting myself, but the support wasn't there at all. I didn't feel like, what would I do?

I filled out so many. I forget there's a name for those forms, that emotional. I didn't have the textbook depression symptoms. Mine was much more anxiety-driven, and the questions didn't handle anxiety.

It was just like, are you sad? I didn't feel sad, I just felt cripplingly anxious about so many things. So I don't know who we need to talk to to get those questionnaires improved, and to get the follow-up improved, but that is something that really would be wonderful, that that system got better.

I could catch it even earlier, because I was feeling these things right away, and some of the same, I dealt with maybe a mixture at different times, but sometimes the depression was overwhelming, and then sometimes the anxiety, or together, both together, it was truly, now at ten and a half months postpartum, it's much different, but I look back at that time, and think even the simplest of things, that making dinner, or being able to do anything at home.

I mean, I just felt like true survival mode, and it was just so hard and so painful, and I just think we think that more people need to know what to look for.

What were some of the red flags for you, where you were. Like, okay, this is more than me just feeling like I'm having a bad day. Like this is something where I really, I need to get, I need to talk to somebody.

It's time to get a professional involved.

That's a good question, Jen. For me, I started, I think, crying. I just would cry throughout the day, not even just, physically it was hard, recovering from childbirth, he had a severe tongue tie, nursing was very painful, I mean that sort of thing, but more than that, it was just throughout the day, I would wake up with just overwhelming sadness, thinking that I had to do this again, that I have this brand new baby, and I looked at him like he was my baby, but more so like I have to take care of him, like a burden.

I hate to say this, because it's not me, and I've learned so much through this process, but the depression was making it feel like that he was just a burden, like I had to care for him, but I didn't feel that connection to him.

And it was just so painful during that time. So I knew something was wrong in my feelings, and I knew something was wrong with the constant sadness, and crying, and just emotional, or just the way that I felt all of the time, just very sad.

And then when I would be away from him, if he did sleep for a stretch, the anxiety would kick in, and I would think, is something wrong with him? So I mean I couldn't really, I didn't sleep during that time, because any stretch of sleep I had, I was checking the monitor, making sure he was breathing okay, or that he was okay, and that I would cry because I wasn't sleeping.

So the two together, anxiety and depression, really double teamed me. Well what about you? How did you know that it was more than just the baby blues?

Well I knew it was definitely different from how I felt with my other pregnancies. Like I just didn't, again, so I just want to plug this book. This isn't what I expected. This book, we both brought it.

But such a good book. And I just didn't feel like myself. I felt like in my head I just was a different person. I wasn't responding to things how I usually did. I was usually a pretty upbeat, laid back person.

And again, right, the anxiety, like I was afraid I was going to hurt my baby constantly. I felt like I couldn't lay him down because something bad was going to happen to him. I was afraid if I held him, something bad was going to happen to him.

I was afraid I was underfeeding him. I was afraid he was starving. I was just like, and it is irrational. It's like the depression and the anxiety, it is an irrational fear. And that's something that I think it's really important that people understand, is that it is not based on reason at all.

You can't really reason with it. I mean, there are things, you want to speak truth. And that's something that we'll probably talk more about. And it's so important to really cling to what you know is true.

Because the anxiety and the depression, it's a liar. And it will, and it's cruel. It will just make these standards and expectations you cannot hold or keep. So for me, right, because the anxiety became so crippling, and making decisions was overwhelming.

And I remember, I remember it so vividly. I was at the Dollar Tree, and I was, maybe it was for Christmas. It was something, I was trying to just shop a little bit. Leaving the house was so hard. And I was just trying to do some shopping.

And I remember being in line and then feeling like the walls were closing in on me. I mean, I was just having a panic attack. And I came home, and I messaged you. And because I just, I had never really had a panic attack like that before.

And I remember talking to you about my symptoms. And you were like, Jen, that is postpartum depression. So that was really, and I was like, what? I don't have that. I mean, I think at that point, because I was a little farther, if that's Christmas time, I was like two or three months along after delivery.

And I think that's when my issues really peaked. It took some time. I was like four or five months postpartum when things, like December, January is when, I mean, I have a note of things that I wrote down to talk to my counselor or therapist.

And talking about how I would feel okay. I'd be having a great morning, and then something would happen. And it was like being shot by a gun. Like it was just, and then the rest of the day would be recovering from that.

Yeah. So I think it just took, again, it just took a friend who knew saying, okay, this is what's going on. Because for some reason it was just so hard. Did you come to the realization yourself? Or did you, did someone have to help you see that?

Or you just knew, you just kind of knew that there was something wrong.

I kind of knew that there was something wrong. Because what I had, what a little bit that I knew about postpartum depression or the baby, with my other, my last pregnancy, I felt sad, but not anywhere to the extent that I was with this pregnancy.

So I remember at the time it was called the baby blues. And I've learned more about that since. But I was able pretty quickly to say, this is something else. This is not just that. Yeah. So if you're listening and you have just had a baby, this can happen actually anytime your first year.

Yeah. You're still in your postpartum. Like Jen and I are still in our postpartum period. And our babies are over 10 months old.

Yeah. And we were just saying off camera, like before we started that we don't feel completely well. Like we still have days that we are wrestling with the depression and the anxiety.

And it's great to have a friend. Yeah. Such a great friend. And like we talk probably almost every day, don't we? Yeah.

We ask each other, how are you doing today? You know? And it's wonderful. Yeah.

I'm not going to cry. Me too. I was just thinking that. I was like, for me the height of it was Thanksgiving to Christmas in that range. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I was probably two to three months postpartum was the Thanksgiving probably time being the worst for me.

But I remember you reaching out every day. And that was just something to look for. Like you really helped me so much during that time. And we didn't know that we needed that. But let's backtrack a little bit.

Defining Postpartum Depression and the Weight of Stigma

How would you define postpartum depression? What is it?

Well, and that's hard because I think for so many people it could be something very different. Like I think you and I, we had some similarities in our experiences, but there were some differences as well.

So like I think for some ladies it's just feeling completely overwhelmed. Like I didn't necessarily have the sadness, but I had the overwhelmed feeling where like basic things that shouldn't be huge felt insurmountable.

And I did have the baby blues initially too, which I think should have been a red flag to me, but I didn't know. If you have just constant crying and you don't know why or like you just emotionally feel extremely fragile.

I think fatigue was a huge trigger for me. Like if I was exhausted and I was exhausted, everything was so much worse. So I know we're going to talk more about like things that helped, but fatigue and just feeling so isolated because it is kind of lonely.

There's a big stigma. So it's hard to know. I mean, we are taking a risk sharing this with everyone because I think unfortunately in the church and the Christian community, there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding.

And so there's a tendency for people to say, we'll just pray more. And we of course should bathe everything that we do in faith and in prayer. But just like you would go to the doctor when you're sick.

I think, you know, there are resources the Lord gives us to help us overcome depression, anxiety, which is, it is a sickness.

And hear this too, listener. You did not, this is not like something that you did. You did not do anything wrong. I remember that from the first session with the counselor, I was crying the whole time.

And she said, you have to listen and believe this. Like this is postpartum depression. This is not something that you've done. So if you're feeling this way and you're looking at that sweet baby and you're thinking, why do I feel these things?

It's not rational because it's not rational. It doesn't make sense. But there's so many people, so many women feel this and they don't understand it. And I don't think there's enough education about it, especially within the church.

So that's one reason Jen and I talked, you know, or decided that we wanted to share.

Yeah. To show that really it can happen to anyone. And it does happen to anyone. I mean, the hard thing, the statistics are not good as far as like how many women actually struggle with some form of postpartum depression.

There's a lot. There's a lot of women. And only a few of them actually get the help that they need. I mean, you make it through. Usually we make it through that first year. But I think there should be more resources, more conversations, more awareness.

And I think, too, you know, we hope to maybe at some point bring our husbands on to talk about their perspective because having an engaged, loving husband, I know for me, was critical. And I think, too, with depression, with postpartum depression, there are so many different triggers for it.

Like the name of this book is This Isn't What I Expected. And for my life, I mean, my youngest was 15. So I was on a certain trajectory. Like I hadn't had to think about baby stuff for 15 years. I thought my next baby I held would be a grandchild.

So having my life take a dramatic turn was hard. It's just hard for our brains to adjust. It's hard for our expectations to adjust. Not that I didn't love or want my sweet little baby. I mean, I did. But it was definitely not what I was expecting.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. That's very good. That's so true. And same. I mean, I just, in my mind, my youngest is soon to be six. So I was, I mean, my house is not baby-proofed. Well, it is now. It's becoming baby-proofed because he's on the move now.

But, I mean, that, it was, and I was moving into a different season also. So, again, I don't know. And there's a whole stigma. I guess we could probably do a whole podcast about being an older mom. Yeah.

Yeah. Because it is different.

It's different. It's definitely different. And there's not a lot of information on that either. Like, I remember talking to my OB and asking, you know, is my recovery going to be harder? Like, I was asking all the questions.

Is my recovery going to be harder? Is it going to be harder to nurse? You know, what can I expect? Is it going to be harder to recover from a C-section? And for all of that, I was like, I was told no.

And I don't really think that was totally accurate. Maybe they just didn't have the information they needed, which is entirely possible. But I feel like as an older mom, I could have been so much better prepared if there was better information out there.

So, I don't know.

Whoever needs to do that, get on it. Yeah. And the same way, you know, we delivered at the same place. Yes. It's just the automatic, you know, wanting you to be induced. For no other reason other than the age, I just found that incredibly difficult because it's like, I mean, the health.

I was induced also, and I was willing to do, you know, anything that the doctor, you know, could for the health of my baby. But at the same time, it's like, there's no blood pressure issue. There's no other, like, outside issue other than my age.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Even though I was, I experienced that too, even though I was perfectly healthy. Yeah. I mean, I taught my fitness classes all the way up until the week before I delivered. You know, super healthy, super active.

It was not, it didn't matter. So, yeah, that was a struggle.

Reaching Out for Help, Therapy, and Practical Support

So, Jen, what were your first steps towards recovery?

Definitely reaching out to a friend. So, if you're listening to this and something feels not right, don't try to define it. Don't try to, if you just feel not right, just reach out to a trusted friend and tell them you feel not right.

I think we feel like we have to fit in a box. You know, oh, well, I have to check all the, well, if I don't check it all, you know, if I'm not on the scale just right, then don't worry about any of that because depression can strike us all differently.

So, if you just don't feel like yourself, you feel like something is off, please reach out to a trusted friend and talk to them because that was huge. I think that was big for both of us. And then talking to a therapist was tremendous.

I underestimated how helpful it was going to be. She's a wonderful Christian lady. She deals with a lot of postpartum women. And she was, is, because I still see her, wonderful. Like she, I feel like she was a voice of sanity when I felt crazy.

And she really helped me just see things clearly because whenever you're dealing with anxiety and depression, it is irrational. It's hard to think. It's hard to make decisions. You feel like a crazy person.

And I remember saying that to her. I think I said it to you too. I feel crazy. And I knew I just wasn't myself. And so that's something that I love that she has done is she kind of separates out and she talks about like how anxiety just tangles itself in your mind and in your life.

And she's like, and we try to tease those things out. And as we get better and better, it is more teased apart so that anxiety is less so solidified in your mind and in your life. And whenever I still deal with things, she'll say, okay, that is the anxiety talking.

That is not you. And that's so helpful because it starts feeling like you're a different person. I mean, I felt like this is who I am now. I am forever going to be an emotionally sick person, which is a pretty awful feeling.

So talking to her, really just getting the professional involved was a turning point for me. It was for me too.

I was trying to figure out because I knew sort of what it was or what I thought that it would be. I didn't know much about postpartum depression. And I knew after that six-week checkup that I couldn't trust or didn't feel like I could trust my OB to help me.

I started looking for resources. And that's where I found her. And she recommended the book. And I read the book. And I would recommend this to anybody. This would be a great gift. I wish I would have read this before.

Like maybe this would be a good baby shower gift. Yes. For expecting mamas. Is that gloomy? I don't know. Or just a reference. Just keep it. So if someone in your life, maybe that is gloomy. I don't know.

But I wish I would have known more about it. I think I could have saved myself a lot of struggle at the beginning of everything to know. But it has some quizzes in here that kind of you can go through.

It talks about the difference between postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and postpartum OCD. I didn't know those things were a thing. And another thing kind of going back to I thought about the need for the podcast was you see these stories on TV.

Like recently a doctor. I don't know. I mean I haven't looked more into it to see if it was. I mean it was definitely her postpartum. She was four months postpartum. But she killed herself and she killed her four-month-old baby.

So and you see these things in the news from time to time. And you think that's. I mean that is an extreme case. You know postpartum psychosis more than likely. But I don't know. I just feel like if we had the resources to talk to someone or if it wasn't such a stigma attached to it that, you know, I think we should help each other.

And that poor mama. Like she was probably super high functioning. Go get her. Make it happen. She was a doctor. And, you know, and then she had this baby and she probably didn't. She couldn't see. She didn't know who she was anymore.

Like and when you feel like there's no way out. Unfortunately, like suicide is a way out. And I mean it's absolutely awful. Right. So there is a way out. There is help. There is recovery. And I think sometimes too, you know, we women, we have to swallow our pride.

We have to believe that we can't do it all. I mean I think the world tells us we can do it all, have it all, be it all. And that's not necessarily true. You know, I think there's a time to check our ego and go, okay, for the best of my family, for my children, I'm going to get help.

And have some humility about that and get the help that we need. So it's definitely, there's like multi-facets. Like I know for me, owning a business, and I mean I'm certainly 110 go-getter. Anybody that knows me knows that I'm just like on it.

And like since having the baby, that has all changed. And some of that is still just recovering from the anxiety and just not letting it grip me. And some of it is just now I have a baby. So babies require lots of time and attention.

Lots and lots. So, you know, it's just going to, having a baby will change your life. I mean in a wonderful, amazing way. Like our little boys are so precious. Like they are the MVPs of the home. Does anybody else matter?

Can you imagine your life without them? Oh my goodness, no. I cannot without Theo either. I mean, they are just the most charming little things. And so, and of course then we have guilt. And it's like, oh my goodness, why am I not so happy about having this sweet little person?

You know, so it is just such a multi-faceted, we just have to be real with ourselves. And allow things to be where they are right now. This is a stage. This is a stage where we're taking care of tiny people.

And it is extremely demanding. And I think the age factor does play a role. Where we just don't have the energy we had when we were 20 and 30. I mean, I don't care what the magazine tells you, you know.

We just don't have the energy. And so, it is a challenge. But definitely, if you just feel not right, or if you know someone. Like, I know with us, with our conversations, you were just saying how overwhelmed you were.

And I just might, I just felt this weight in my heart for you. And I was worried, you know. So, if you have a friend who had a baby, you know, I think that's something that's been really helpful through this.

Is I know what to ask now. I know what to say. So, maybe don't give them this book at the baby shower. But maybe keep it on your shelf. So that you can, when you ask them, and you check in, and you tell them to be honest.

Because we tend to say, oh, I'm fine. We're good. Everything's great. And like, we're really crumbling inside. So, I know what to ask to, you know, to hopefully draw out and identify. So that these mamas will get help.

I know. Have you feel, have you discovered that there are so many more women than you realized? Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, big time. Yeah. Yeah, something that we don't talk about, but most women deal with in some way. And I didn't know that until going through it, how common it is. A lot of my Facebook groups and other mama groups.

Even within the congregation or other surrounding congregations, it's not uncommon to hear about.

And the sad thing to me, too, is like in the church, sometimes I feel like there's a mama I'm talking to. And I want to gently maybe introduce the idea that they might be struggling with postpartum depression.

And sometimes I get some very strong pushback. Yes. And it breaks my heart because I'm like, okay, this poor mama is drowning. And she has listened to the stigma that, oh, well, if you have any sort of depression, then you're just, you know, you don't have faith.

Which is such a lie. That is such a lie. And is that the prosperity movement? Where does that garbage come from? I was thinking that sounds like that. Garbage. Sorry. But, you know, these mamas need to know this isn't because there's anything wrong with their walk with Jesus.

You know, it is not because they don't have faith. It's not because they haven't prayed enough. It's not because they're a bad person. It is because there are chemicals and hormones and exhaustion. And we are just frail creatures.

And sometimes we just need to reach out and get some help and allow our community to come around us, too. And I want to speak to that, too.

Because we communicated daily. But I had another, I have another friend, Richard, who is on the podcast We Keep Sometimes. Well, he and his wife, and they have a teenage daughter who's very dear to me.

And during the hardest point, she came. She's homeschooled. And she would come, even just sit with me. And I remember the first time, Theo, I was at the height of everything. He was maybe two months old.

And she reached her arms out, like, can I just hold him? And just to have her, like, where I could drink a cup of coffee and have her hold my baby and just sit and talk to me, we just talked a lot. And that was so comforting to me.

Like, she'll just, that family and her will just always have a special place in my heart. But I feel like we should do that within our congregation. So I pray through this experience, what has happened to me, that I'll be much more sensitive to the needs of the other women that are having babies around me.

And to be able, like you said, like, can I just come hold your baby for you? While you take a shower. While you take a nap. Yeah. And I had another, a dear woman in our congregation come over, and she made me, like, some delicious food, very healthy food.