Can Mormonism Withstand the Bible?

Track for you guys? It's gospel track. Yeah. What's your faith background man? Latter-day Saint. Latter-day Saint your whole life? Were you born and raised here?

Born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Really? Wow. So tell me, tell me about that real quick. How did he convert?

He had a dream about golden plates. Like that's super weird. And then he was in Georgia. He was joined a band, his band member was a member of the church. That's a weird dream. I didn't know about that.

So missionaries were baptized.

Was that before or after he met your mom? Before. Before. Okay. So he was LDS. Do you want a mission? Yeah. Philippines. You went to the Philippines. Wow, man. Okay. So then you were born. How much,.

How much later? 10, 15 years later. Wow. Okay.

So you were LDS raised your whole life, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. That's an interesting place to be LDS. I know Joseph Smith lived in Harmony, Pennsylvania for a time. So I mean it's kind of from that area originally.

Rigdon was in Pittsburgh. Yeah.

I've been there to Harmony the restoration site. So. Oh, what was that like? Beautiful. Very scenic and spiritual. Oh yeah. That's how you felt. Nice.

Priesthood Authority and Ordinances in Latter-day Saint Belief

Okay. Well we're evangelical Christians and we love to get in conversations with our LDS neighbors because we love to hear about you guys. What are some differences that you may think of when you think of like evangelical Christianity and Latter-day Saints?

Priesthood authority. That's a big one. I'm sure you know about that. Yeah. Yeah. And the importance of ordinances and covenants. Gotcha. So like article three, essentially,.

It's like we believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles. So what do you think. The importance are of the gospel ordinances and principles.

Then? Um, it's how we, it's a key. You access the fullness of Christ's blessings and delivered through authorized servants, like John the Baptist authorized to baptize in Christ's name. Oh.

Oh, okay. So do you think, help me figure that out too. So like let's think about like temple endowments and ceremonies. Like did John the Baptist do any of those types of things? Um, I don't know. So just really just did a baptism of repentance first.

Or how does that work with regards to Jesus when you're talking about the endowment? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,.

I'm not clear about the endowment's role in the previous dispensations. You know, this current is dispensational most of the times. So more things are in store now than ever before. But this latter day is where the price comes again.

So the endowment's role in previous dispensations, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to go about that. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. That's always been a key. Um, or is a key to unlocking that.

So where are you? Atonement power. Yeah. Oh, his atonement power. Okay. So were you baptized when you were eight? I was, yeah. What did that do for you when you were eight and you were baptized? Um,.

Like that day, not much probably. Cause I was only eight years old. Um, I think it really was like a personal commitment I made that day when I was eight to follow God's commandments and love Jesus Christ more.

And so it really set me on a good path to follow. And to this day I'm still on that path.

Oh, Jesus Christ. Gotcha. Correct me if I've, if I've heard wrong, I've heard that when you're baptized at eight, that's like what gets you the remission of sins, right? But then after that, the rest is kind of up to you a little bit.

I mean, I'm not sure since I was nine years old,.

But I haven't made sins I don't think so. When you were eight? Yeah. Let's introduce you to a couple of kids. Oh yeah. My, my children, there's my little sinner right there. There's a cool pastor named Vodie Bauckham and of course we love our children.

That's why we raise our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. But he says that they're a little vipers and diapers and essentially God made them so small because if they were bigger than us, they'd probably strangle us to death.

They're little sinners. But, um, so you never heard anything about that? Like when you're baptized at eight, that's like kind of what cleans your slate. Oh yeah, I've heard that. Yeah. Oh,.

Okay. I believe it too. I'm just thinking like little kids, like very accountable for their sins. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure if you're a quarter, like hunches are a quarter old, it's four years old.

I don't think he would be condemned for that if he dies.

Before baptism. Do you think he'd go to like the celestial kingdom upon resurrection or how would that work? A four year old? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Just straight to the celestial. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I'm not, I'm not God. I can't judge my patron for him, but me personally, as I think,.

Yeah, I'm just wondering, it's an interesting thought. I've never really thought too much about it. So what do you, huh? What? I never thought too much about that. Like what happens to a, like a four year old.

Sorry, I just lost hearing in my ear. So what do you think about like differences though, with regards to evangelical Christianity and the LDS, like with who we think Jesus is, do you think we believe in the same Jesus?

Tell me about Jesus Christ. Yeah.

The Eternal Deity of Christ Versus a Created Jesus

So I would believe what John one says about Jesus Christ. It says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. Yeah. It says all things were created through him, but there was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus.

Do you agree with that? Do you think he created Lucifer? Did Jesus Christ create Lucifer? I don't think so.

So there's, there's why I would find a disagreement, right? Because in Colossians one as well, thinking about John one, it says that Jesus created all things on heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things were created through him.

And then it says he is before all things and in him all things hold together. So according to Colossians one in John one, Jesus created Lucifer. So if he didn't create Lucifer according to Joseph Smith, but according to the Bible, he did, I'd find that there's a difference there.

That's pretty important.

I personally don't find a mega, like alarming contradiction there. The scriptures are not always literal in some things. Would you agree with that?

Well, I would say, well, then how would you interpret Colossians one, 14 through 16, where it says he created all things on heaven and on earth. I'm not interpreting it for you. I'm just repeating it to you.

Whether invisible and visible. So Paul is giving you the spectrum of the glory of Jesus. And you can even go to Hebrews chapter one with regards to the supremacy of the son and all of the things that he has done.

And it's quite clear regardless of interpretation that he made all things, anything that falls into a made category, whether visible or invisible, Jesus made it. John one and Colossians one in Hebrews.

Yeah. I don't think it's like, this is where it gets tough. Like this comes back to like God, the father, Jesus Christ, the holy ghost, like these are means one, the same one God through God. Um, so I believe God, the father is Jesus's father.

Yeah. Elohim literally his father. Literally. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like a separate being. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like Jesus came into existence at one point as a spirit offspring of Elohim and heavenly mother. So the first one, right. He'd be the first offspring.

The first born with a gun. Yeah. So I mean when it comes to like reveal truth from God about this topic, there's not much there. So I say it's most speculation. My partner with the church has to say about this speculatory.

I think all the father, you know, his first born was Jesus Christ.

That's what I, that's what I thought the organization taught for sure. Yeah. And then Lucifer would be, I don't know if he's the second born or not, but he's under Jesus. Yeah. So what if the Bible taught different though is the question because Jesus asked his disciples, he says, who do you say that I am?

Right. So it's just so important for Jesus, right. To ask them. Well, they say that, yeah, he is the Messiah, the eternal God. Yeah. Not just in title. There's the title son of God. Right. But the son of man, the son of God, the Messiah, the Christ, it tells you in Isaiah nine six that he is the everlasting God from all eternity.

Yeah. He's the everlasting, right? He's the one that's from eternity into eternity, the alpha and the omega, the beginning, the end, the one without origin. It's like even in John chapter one in the Greek, uh, it says, in arche in halagos, that's the Greek right there for in the beginning was the word.

And arche for beginning means like beginning. And then the word that we translate to was is in, in the Greek. And that means without origin to reference of space and time. So like without as far back as you want to push it, Jesus was already there, meaning that he never came into existence, meaning that he was not the spirit offspring of Elohim and heavenly mother.

So if Jesus is the eternal God, uncreated creator of all things, who took on flesh, it's a beautiful picture of the gospel, right? Have you ever read Philippians chapter two before?

Before? I'm not sure. I don't remember what this is exactly, but I'm sure I've read it once. Dude, it's beautiful.

It talks about the humiliation of Christ. Essentially that though he existed eternally in the form of God, it's what it says. He didn't consider equality with God, something to be grasped. So what he did was instead emptied himself and took the form of a servant and became obedient to the father, even to obedience to the form of death, death on a cross.

Therefore the father exalted him and raised him up. So the humiliation that's being expressed there is the fact that the uncreated eternal God, the one that says it's the same yesterday, today, and forever took on flesh and died the death that we deserve because we're sinners in the Bible.

It says in Adam, all die. Romans chapter three says, no one seeks God. No one understands God. All have gone astray. The venom of acid is under our lips. But the beautiful thing about Jesus is that God goes, Hey, I'm going to die for these people who are undeserving, right?

I'm a, I'm a wretched sinner. There's nothing that I can do to deserve the grace of God. That's why it's grace. It's a gift. I was dead in my trespasses and sins, like it says in Ephesians, but then God took my place on the cross.

So my faith in him alone accredits to me his righteousness. He redeemed me because the word redemption means to purchase, right? To buy at the price and his blood literally redeemed me. The scriptures say from the pit, there's nothing that I could do to earn my salvation.

So my faith in Christ alone, because he's the eternal God. When I die and I stand before the father, I'm justified purely through the work of Christ, not by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles, but because that's because he's the eternal God.

So my worry is that if you change who Jesus is, if he's not the eternal God anymore, you're going to end up with a different gospel, one in which you have to work to obtain your salvation.

I can't do that myself. I don't.

You don't think so? What about Moroni 10 32? Deny yourself of all ungodliness. Love the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength. And then is his grace sufficient for you? There's an if then statement, man.

You have to love the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength. Have you done that today? No, he's honest. You tried. But that's not what Moroni 10 32 says. It says if you deny yourself of all ungodliness, deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you?

Not. I did my best.

It says if you do it, he demands us to be perfect and obviously we can't. It's he knows I won't ever get there. And that's why we have Christ. He makes up for the, all of my shortcomings.

Because God can't say do your best because that gives people slack to sin. But if he says like be perfect, we aim for that. And when we fall short, Christ's grace is sufficient to fill that gap. Um, not that there's a day where we can do ever to reclaim our salvation.

It's always a gift from Christ, but he wants us to try at least. And our works don't do the baptism does nothing on paying any debts back or saving us. But Christ can offer us more blessings now and later if we're baptized, I think.

And also it comes like, I'm sure you still love our doctors. Yeah. We love getting in conversation with you guys. Salvation, our eternal destiny to become as God is. I think that's the main purpose of these ordinances.

Um, second Peter one, um, I don't know if I should have words.

Something about being joint heirs of Christ. Yeah. I think that's one.

Well, that's in Romans, but second Peter, he talks about through these promises, we can become partakers of divine nature. I think the covenants, his eternal covenants that God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were restored today.

There's covenants that we can receive through perfecting power. Not what we do to receive power, it's God's gift. And so, you know, God says, do these things, I'll bless you this way. If we don't do these things, I don't think we're going to hell.

That's the three kingdoms, all three kings of glory of heaven, degrees. So it's all heaven. You're all, everyone is very safe, but there's levels too. Where does Jesus dwell? Right now? Yeah.

Does he dwell in the second and first kingdom or does it only dwell in the celestial kingdom? I would, I would say, according to your doctrine, I'd say he dwells only in the celestial kingdom. So heaven to me is being with Christ.

And the gospel tells me that I can actually inherit salvation through my faith alone, which does not mean though, that I can go live any way that I want to live. Right? Because once God takes my heart of stone, replaces it with the heart of flesh, it says in the Bible and Ezekiel that he causes me to want to observe his statutes, but it's not the observance of those statutes that give me the inheritance of salvation.

It's through faith in Christ and Christ alone. But, but though,.

I would say baptism is faith, faith alone. Like again, the baptism that, that water did nothing. There's my faith that drew me to, um, I guess, um, be baptized and help others be baptized. That's faith still.

And so faith and works, I don't think they're separate entities. It's like scissors, like scissors, same blade. Cause like without faith, there's no worse, no worse than faith. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It works to save us.

Jesus Christ does well, but that we agree. Well, no,.

But the article, article three says you, all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles. To be fair, in order to go to the celestial kingdom of heaven, you have to be baptized.

And if you, if you're dead, someone has to baptize you in proxy. You have to have laid on hands, either laid on hands in person or in proxy. Yeah. And you have to pay 10 of the time. These are things that have to happen in order to go to the highest level of heaven.

The gospel says, no, it says it's nothing of yourselves. It's all a gift from God's that no man may boast. I'll give you a picture. The thief on the cross. When he just had faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus says today you'll be with me in paradise.

Right? Which you may say that might've been spirit. Was it like spirit prison or something? Part of spirit? Was it spirit prison? Well, paradise and spirit prison are two different things. Right. Okay.

Well I talked to an LDS person a few weeks ago who gave me a different thought of it. So I was wondering what you might've been thinking about that. But anyways, he tells that to the thief on the cross, simply by the man's faith in Jesus Christ alone, he wasn't baptized.

You know, he didn't do those things. He said, you will be with me. And he doesn't say just, you will be with me at some point in the future. He says today. Today. So it's not like you can say, well, maybe somebody was baptized for him by proxy later on.

You know, maybe somebody today has received by revelation what this man's name is and got baptized. But. Amen. In a matter of speaking, because we don't, biblically speaking, that that model of like three degrees of glory plus out of dark, outer darkness, that's not what it is.

It's either, we were designed specifically to be in fellowship with the fullness of who God is. And God's not three separate beings. Uh, we are, we're designed to be like that. And so, uh, for us to be separated from him is what hell is.

That's basically how that works. And so it's not like, you know, we're going to heaven to be, uh, on clouds and hanging out with angels and playing harps like anyone wants to do that.

So in our like eternal plan of happiness that we, our church, it's instead of going straight to those three kingdoms, there's a judgment that will happen after the resurrection. And until then he would be in either spirit, spirit paradise or spirit prison.

And I can't remember where you might know more than I do, but, uh, it says like during Christ's resurrection that he went up and like began to work.

He went down to the disobedience ones during the times of Noah. It's in first Peter somewhere. I can never remember.

So we imagined spirit world to be, um, spirit prison. We get people that didn't understand the church. They didn't get those, uh, covenants, those works that they needed to do. And that's the chance where they can be taught and that's when they can accept those proxy ordinances that we would do for them back here.

And so Christ said he went there, he began the teaching and then he came back. So I would say that he, I mean, the way I interpret that would be that Christ resides in spirit world right now and he is actively helping them work.

Yeah. So I'll clarify some things for we believe in the doctrine too. We do believe in a coming judgment where the dead will rise again and there will be a final judgment. And there are two places that you go in between now and then.

So we believe as Christians that we do go to heaven to be with God, separated from our body and for the bodily resurrection. And then when the judgment comes, we are resurrected. And then there's the final judgment.

Would everyone go to heaven? No, no, no.

What was that? So how would that like be different. If it's like some people are having a beginning before the judgment, some people aren't right.

So the way I've, I at least understood this, and I don't know if this is the way that you've gotten this, but the idea is God knows fully ahead of time how things are going to end up. Like he has known from the very beginning exactly how the end was going to work out.

Yeah. And the reason for why he knows that is because he's decided that. So that might be one place where we would disagree. But, so it's not like God has said, well, you're going to be judged here. And then again, later on, you're going to be judged.

It's you already stand in judgment. And it's just, we're waiting for the trial to happen. It's already a guarantee because. Yeah. Cause Hebrew says first comes death. Then comes the judgment. To be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord.

So what he's saying is though, if I die and I don't believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, if I don't believe he is the eternal God who took on flesh and by faith alone that I'm justified before God, when I die, I will be separated and I will be in hell, right?

I will face a resurrection one day, but I will be cast into the lake of fire. Like it says in the end of the book of revelation. However, if I believe in Jesus, my spirit will be in heaven. Then one day there will be a bodily resurrection and I will get my body back and my spirit and body will be together.

And I'll receive a glorified body and worship Christ forever on a new heavens and new earth. That's what the book of revelation essentially teaches about that. And we would actually, uh, ironically agree with the book of Mormon on this, that when, uh, when a person dies, that's the end of the work that can be done for them.

This is in Alma. I want to say that's the one. Yeah. And he's, he's very, we actually just talked about this today. Which kind of blew my mind. I was like, well, there's this teaching about spirit prison, but for some reason the book of Mormon doesn't teach it at all.

It actually says the opposite. Yeah. It's seeming to say, and I think it's really clear. I'm a 40 to 41. 40 to 41. Okay. Yeah. We'll take a look at that. Okay. Uh, so what I've, what I've read in that is that it's saying, once you die, the devil has sealed you.

His, this is the final state of the wicked for somebody who dies in a state of wickedness. And I, I would totally agree with that. Like if you're, you've been given.

35, 27. He says like after this life, like the night comes when the work can be done. So this is the time to prepare me God. And so it's, you have stuff to do tonight. I was in the clothes by like clothes.

I guess we can, um, there's like one problem. There's one route to the disagreements. It's like whether there's a current prophet today or not. I'm just, for me personally, I look at the biblical history.

God called a prophet, like Noah, he gave Noah specific instructions, go to an ark and then through that Noah was saved. Next prophet, different instructions. This prophet here, can I survive on just Noah's instructions?

I'm going to get personal revelation and we believe that continues today. That's why, um, there's, there's some new things that different from the old themes. There's guys who even, which is great. I agree with it too.

Updated instructions. That's how God always works through history. We believe that he does it today through the current prophet Russell Nelson. And you guys, this is in the general conference ever. I'm sure you, yeah.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love president Nelson. So definitely. Have you listened to the current one? The most recent one?

I haven't gone over any of the last one. I think I heard some clips on Tik Tok. Yeah. I think I've seen some great stuff. That's normally where we go to get our Tik Tok. My wife has Tik Tok. Oh sure. Oh, it was, it was my wife.

I don't, I can show you my phone. I don't have Tik Tok. Oh sure. People who don't have Tik Tok do not have to prove that they don't have to. Here's this like Hebrews one says this right in the beginning.

It says long ago at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his son. Who wrote that? Yeah. Well there's disagreement on who wrote it.

Paul someone, but like he was an author. I certainly got it in scripture. So there's some authorizations. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, however,.

I would say the apostles and I would say it was a, it was a sermon that Luke penned down from Paul and apostle means to speak for the King on behalf of the King as a messenger of Christ. There's no apostles today.

And so Paul was speaking for Christ meaning that it was scripture. But the question would be, and I'll grant you that there could be prophets. There could be, I'll grant you that. Okay. But the question is, is how do you know what they're telling you is true?

Your heart and mind, not just feelings alone, but logic and the spirit can also affect your intelligence too.

So two things going on. Which one overrides the other? Okay. Okay. That's good. That's good. Do you think so? Do you just want to override the other for you or?

I would say sometimes art maybe overrides it for me. Yeah.

But it makes sense. I mean, if you experience something,.

Like if I don't understand something like logically, I will work until I find an answer that is logical to me.

And sometimes you wait for a while to find the answer. Like polygamy, not cool, but I got accepted, you know?

Yeah. Section 132. It says it's the eternal covenant. That's my son. Yeah. Poet. Poe, you don't know this guy. He's like, wait, you're not my dad. Thank you. I actually did that haircut. But, um, so there's two tests of a prophet in the Bible.

There's Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.

So this is just prophecy. Do you come true or no? That's Deuteronomy 18. Yes.

It says if they speak in the name of Yahweh, but if they speak in the name of Yahweh presumptuously, and the thing that they say does not come to pass false prophet, Deuteronomy 13 says, if they, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs and wonders.

So even if they look legit, like they're doing really cool stuff, it says, but if they lead you after other gods, gods of which you have not known, do not believe them. So the question would be, we have Joseph Smith who comes 1800 years later than Christ coming to say he restores gospel or information that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts in Nephi.

How do I know what he's saying is true? Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to previous revelation. Deuteronomy 13 tells me if he leads me after another God, I'm not going to believe it. Psalm 90 verse two says, God has been God from everlasting into everlasting because from everlasting into everlasting, you are God.

Isaiah 43, 10 says before me, there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. I, even though I am the Lord beside me, there is no God. Right? However, Joseph says in the King Follett discourse, you have imagined and suppose that God has been God from all eternity.

I will refute the idea and take away the veils that you may see. You have got to learn to become gods. Joseph Smith said that. So according to Deuteronomy 13, when God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, he says, uh, numbers 2319, God is not a man that he should lie or the son of man that he would change his mind.

Right? Or in Malachi, I am the Lord. I do not change. When God tells us these things that he has never been created, he's the uncreated creator of all things. He spoke everything into existence. He didn't organize matter.

He created matter. He's out hot outside of time and space. But Joseph then tells us, no, you're wrong. You're missing something. He's not been God from all eternity. You've got to learn how to become a God like he did before.

I'm, I'm given a different God. And since I believe that the Bible, right, is not missing many plain and precious parts. I believe what Jesus says, heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words by no means will ever pass away.

Right? I believe what God says in Proverbs, that every word of God is pure. He is like a shield under them who put their faith in him. Add that not to these words. Or Jesus says about the mustard seed, that the kingdom of God is going to start and then just continue on growing.

That it's not going to stop and then be removed and then be replanted like that. Right. So I have the ability outside of like my own sense experience by God's previously revealed word to say, guess what, Joseph, you're a false prophet.

That's just on Deuteronomy 13. There's Deuteronomy 18 as well. We don't have, I know you guys don't have time, so we don't have to go into false prophecies, but if we're being honest, there's, there's multiple false prophecies of Joseph Smith.

He gave a, he gave a year coming for the end of the world. He says, yay, even with 56 years, shall he wind up on the scene, referring to Christ within this generation. He didn't speak in Greek. He spoke in English.

I mean, it didn't happen.

Did you read the whole section now came from? Yes. It was like a hypothetical. He said, like, if you, if you're alive, when he reached this age, he'll come, but he died before that age.

So that's why. But why would that change whether Jesus is coming to you then or not? Yeah. But you know, ultimately. Well, I mean, all of the other prophets after him, you can go look at their quotes.

They still believe Jesus was coming back within that generation. It wasn't until 18, no, it was 19 about 10, where the prophets finally said, one of the prophets said, I have the information if you want to see it.

But he says, look, it didn't come. It didn't come. It didn't happen. But there's a lineage of 80 years after this prophecy where other prophets said, we're waiting for it. We're waiting for the return of Christ.

It's a reason why you're called the latter day. It's like money changes a bird. That's correct. But anyways, since, since we know that you guys have places to go, uh, ultimately, we just want to make it clear that like our message isn't just, oh, the belief system that you guys have, that has given you peace and comfort for all of your lives is totally false.

Have a nice day. Yeah. The truth is that God is far, far better than anyone has really led you guys to believe. And the message of the Mormon church, while it may sound very nice or maybe, uh, it may make sense to you right now.

It's not really true. And the truth about God is just far, far better. The gospel is far, far better. You know, the gospel is one that is centered entirely around glorifying God. It's one where if you are in Christ, you are in the fullness of who God is and are guaranteed that forever.

And you don't have to have this burden on you saying, uh, if I, if I just follow the laws and ordinances or like, what if I don't try hard enough? Am I really trying the best that I can?

Anyway. So what's my invitation? What should I do to learn more about the gospel or the Bible? Yeah, absolutely.

Do you have a, do you have a Bible? Yeah, guys do it. Do you have one in like a language that isn't the King James? NIV bro. I love it. Read the book of Romans, man. Sounds like you guys have been doing John.

I love that. That I want to talk about because it's all about the deity of Christ. It's about its eternality, which is amazing. Read, read Romans. All right. It talks about justifications. Yeah. Seriously.

I love talking with you guys. You guys are awesome. Andrew, what was yours? Joshua, Joshua, Ryan, Mallory. Awesome. You guys have a wonderful night tonight. Okay. Yep. Hey buddy. Are you ready to get some pizza?

It's about that time, bud. The time has come. I believe where's Moe? We lost Moe. You want to go potty? We're about to go potty.