Ergun Caner Gave a "Talk" then Calls

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white Really sir. Are you to go to France and insist they speak

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English? Oh Listen, you need to speak my language As you would really long yeah, let's get it along the romantic

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I love French but not the French Not if you're gonna change the rules thing is

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Culture cannot define truth So culture runs on feeling It happens in our pulpits.

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God help us not your pulpit. I promise you not my pulpit not with dr. Falwell, but it happens Pulpits used to be filled with people who would thunder thus saith the

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Lord the Bible says now It seems to me

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Um, I Feel what what time does this service end?

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Dr. Powell? What time? I know what no

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Say again 10 30 10 30. All right. Let me ask you a question. Why did you dress up?

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Some of us are in ties. I have to be you do know Jerry Falwell, don't you? He was born with a tie

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I I saw him mowing his yard with a tie Why Why why why'd you get dressed up?

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Did you come to hear somebody's opinion? I didn't I Come to hear somebody expound the

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Word of God And if it hurts my feelings good That is dr.

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Ergin canner of Liberty University preaching on the 10th of December and I Listened to this this presentation

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It was sent to me by a friend who I will not name so he doesn't have to deal with any of dr.

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Cantor's fans, but I I Had never gotten a chance to listen to to dr.

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Cantor a preach on a non Calvinistic subject he did mention hyper Calvinist once been sending more about it, so and this is supposed to be a

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Christmas sermon and I Just gave you a taste of it there and give you a little bit more.

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I Was I was just Maybe this is what a lot of people are accustomed to maybe this is what's popular today

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I don't know. Maybe I'm a little Sheltered maybe

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I'm just just accustomed to You know if I'm not preaching I'm listening to Don Frye preach

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So I you know that's what I've gotten accustomed to over 15 years now and and so I don't hear a whole lot of other preaching to be honest with you and But I I listened to this entire thing he did go to a text in in in Isaiah for about 40 seconds,

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I'd say You know read it made some basic comments about the context and then very quickly departed there from my friend

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Mentioned something that Spurgeon said and and as we listen to the end of this sermon how it ended I think that this really says something

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Spurgeon said natural humor may possibly be consecrated and made to wear the yoke of Christ But he who apes it is no true man

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If you find us a man who has any object in this world and what he says But the glory of God and the winning of souls

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He is the man who is out of center and into his secret and into his secret may we never come and furthermore if you discover a preacher who is

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Indelicate and causes the cheek of modesty to tingle let him be cast out of the pulpit and the door locked against him

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We have known men of the slopdash order who would have been nothing if they had not been outrageous and Of these it may be said that they were worse than nothing when they followed their own style

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There was nothing in their absurdities to excuse them for they were not carried away by zeal

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Nor did the excellence of their matter make up for the ridiculousness of their manner of such men.

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We will neither be defender nor judge Thank you very much That's evidently

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I still have the sounds on the notepad program that I use there, but I Just I don't know how to describe the the the range of things that are discussed in this 24 or 28 minutes 30 about that is about 30 minutes about that about half an hour by half

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And I I don't know how to discuss. I don't even know how to start cataloging them I guess the only way that I can

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I can explain is just just listen how this ends for these Little kids this big show up to school this big

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Dr. Kenner I eat and I eat and I eat and I cannot gain weight

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I'd like to roll you in breadcrumbs and deep -fry you You Don't you keep that to yourself

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What if they start gaining weight is their face shaking What if they lose their hair face shaking is it feeling or is it fact?

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Is it based on truth of who God is or is it based on the way I respond to it? No, believe and understand he said

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That's a deeper type of faith And that's a that's a that's a type of faith that goes beyond just My feelings

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I Served in churches in the south my entire my entire pastorate

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I Lived and was raised in the city and they played a little game out there called torture the immigrant

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Yankee It was because of the game torture the immigrant Yankee That I found myself in a field at 5 a .m

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With a burlap sack in my hands yelling for something called snipe You are evil for laughing at that And The things they did to me were horrific.

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I had a cough once and they gave me some cough syrup cough syrup

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It was my father -in -law. I Had to clear the platform out for the pageant that evening

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And I couldn't stop coughing. Nothing's open. We're an hour from town He said I got some in my truck

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Who's got cough syrup in the truck I Expect him to come back with Robitussin Dimetapp.

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It's a mason jar Some of y 'all know cuz you got some cough syrup at home

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And I said, what is this and Braxton doesn't my father -in -law he's at Braxton He said maybe my preacher just hold your nose and take two good gulps and step away from a truck

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And I chugged it I Chugged it cuz I believe it cuz he told me it was true and I finished it

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They got rid of my cold At least that's what they tell me I Remember nothing

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My wife says I prowled the stage like Ric Flair. I was walking around going to be the man

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You gotta beat the man. Whoa, I've taken your word for it

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Every time I trusted them I got into the baptistry and there was no baptistry. I went to the back there nothing there

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Where we gonna baptize we do it at the river. I Got in the water with me

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That was awesome. I was like, what are the deacons doing in the water with this is awesome, and they got sticks now, I'm nervous Deacons got sticks

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What they have sticks for Snakes, oh my Hindu. Let me tell you something

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If I knew there was one snake in that water I've been the second person to successively navigate walking on top of it out

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I got into the water Said my stuff They had me facing her the wrong way

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Deacon thought that was funny. I didn't know that you don't have him facing upstream when you baptize in a river So I got to my little part that I've memorized buried in the likeness of his death and she shot out of my arms

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Because the water went up her nose. I Love you,

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I Love Fort Myers and this place is extremely special to me and this pastor and this church is very special to me

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But I don't have faith based on you telling me so My faith is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.

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I Don't have a faith. I don't have a faith.

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That's a believe so feel so or hope so I have a faith that's a no -so

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I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which

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I have committed unto him against that day Why? Because my faith isn't in a system or a denomination.

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My faith is in the true living only Sovereign Lord he is

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King I ain't nothing and if you're gonna celebrate that holiday of his incarnation his birth

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God in the flesh Don't you mess with it and call it winter solstice or seasons greetings or happy holidays

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We are celebrating the birth of the one who saved me. Merry bloody Christmas Stop Playing games

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So don't be a moron Don't be willfully ignorant Don't be an idiot And if you're on my turf if you're in the area where we're talking about the one who saved us don't mess around We'll call you on it

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Merry Christmas Okay Um Most everybody is just sitting there going you're you're kidding right you made this up No, I I couldn't

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I couldn't I couldn't make this kind of thing up That's what the whole sermon was like that was the last five minutes or so and and the whole

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Sermon was a disjointed string of Stand -up comedy routines for Christian nightclubs.

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I mean, that's that's the only way to describe it. It was It's it's get a laugh Get him clapping

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And you know push the envelope at times go ahead and you know just just You know,

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I love France. I love the French language, but not the French and you know, you know he likes to take on Britney Spears and and Paris Hilton and and you know throw that type of stuff in there and show how very

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Up to date he is with the youth culture and stuff like that and This was supposed to be a

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Sunday morning sermon in a church and that that's what the entirety of the thing was and I just When I first started listening to it,

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I sort of assumed well, there's gonna be something here about Calvinism, you know That's why someone would direct me to it. No, it was just this this disjointed, you know rambling of That that as far as I can tell him so that's not preaching

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I don't know how anyone can call that preaching That's a comedy routine

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And there are a couple funny spots, you know, he's he's got fairly decent comedic timing, you know at times sometimes it's strained and really pushed but You know

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He communicate. I'm not sure what he was communicating The majority of times the the jokes the funny stories didn't have anything really to do this it was a massive stretch to make the connection, but There there you go.

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That's that's that's what you have as as preaching by the President of Liberty Seminary I Have a feeling that Charles Haddon Spurgeon would have gone.

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Yep. That's who I'm talking about that's that's closed -door locket because that's

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I Don't know. I don't know that that's a definite pulpit crime that entire sermon was was a pulpit crime of Immense proportions.

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I I don't know I I would be interested in listening to that first part that you played when we came in Because it seemed like the last part that you played totally violated what he was saying about the way men used to preach

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Oh, of course. Yeah, that was the irony was saying I didn't come here to hear somebody's opinion.

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I came here to hear someone Proclaim the word Lord from the Bible and stuff and then he well

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It sounds to me like he wasn't even here there for either one of those. He was there for a good laugh And that but unfortunately,

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I mean, you know, how many churches are turning into story time You know with their famous fishermen pastor or something like that who likes to tell fish stories or something and comedy routines let's let's let's get the

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Get the folks in the seats and make them enjoy and be entertained and they'll come back and pay next week

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Well, and how often in just what I played there. Did we hear the applause?

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There was a tremendous amount of applause and canner was feeding off of it If if there had been no applause of the people that sat there and gone, excuse me

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This is not why I came I don't know what he would have done because I don't know what he was prepared to do anything else but It is once people start doing that and approving of it by their applause and by their laughter and ah, this is great

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Nope, you know, I doubt anybody was getting up and walking out That's that's what what you feed on I think it's it's also just as much of a commentary on his preaching as it is to their

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Listening and what they find approval of in their church and what they find to be spiritual

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Don't know. Don't know. I can't can't say hey, don't I think about the church had never heard the church before?

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I just listened to this and when it ends The way that it ended

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I'm just left going You you're you're kidding me this

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I Well Well, I'm I'm preaching both services on Sunday So I suppose people will be able to see if I hold myself to my own standards

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But anybody who's ever been to PR BC knows that we're not going to be having any of those particular kind of jokes appearing in a discussion of Isaiah and the prophetic texts regarding Christ doesn't really fit rule will be an

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Isaiah though He went to Isaiah something Didn't stay there very long and never really made any much of an application of it.

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But that's that's another issue well, anyway, we do get emails and I Want to spend some time on the program today responding to some emails that we have received

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First of all, I had about four or five people send me the entire quotation from Doug Wilson, it's a volume 10 issue 3 of credenda agenda and The full citation is and I you know, you know what

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I should have done I should have why didn't I grab His book to see how much of this quotation you put into it.

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Oh, well my mistake The quotation is George Bryson is a very unusual non -Calvinist

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He is able to describe the doctrinal position of Calvinism without putting any extra eggs in the pudding His descriptions are fair and accurate and he clearly knows his subject the first portion of the book the place where he does all this

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Is very good the second where he turns to refutation falls in another category The name of this book is the five points of cows and weighed and found wanting just thought

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You might be interested my writer says and yes I had recalled that and that in essence what

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Wilson had said was okay, you know In the section where he's quoting Calvin, that's one thing

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But then when he tries to interact with it, that's where you run into the the real problems and and I doubt

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I mean, I don't know but I sort of doubt that's George put the Second part the second where he turned returns to refutation falls in another category

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Which is Doug's way of saying it's not overly good Then I had this

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This email as a Calvinist. I have a question about Matthew 11 23

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If the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom It would have remained until this day and its implication on reformed theology particularly total depravity

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I've heard reformed preachers say that it shows that God does not intend for all to be saved which I agree with I See it the verse demonstrates that God chose not to show them such mighty works and not give them the opportunity to repent however if an opponent of reformed theology were to use this verse in connection to total depravity not necessarily

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God's election and argue the verse in this manner this verse implies that man is not totally depraved for Jesus even said that if the people of Sodom Would have seen his works.

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They would have believed implying that they had the ability to believe. How would you respond? I haven't personally received this objection, but as I was reading this first,

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I noticed that this could be taken in such a way well, I have many times and it's actually quite common for people to take judgment passages and Attempt to argue from them that Well, yes, this is the way that happened

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God did this to her judgment, but the implication is that if God hadn't acted in judgment then they had the natural capacity

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To believe that is not an unusual argument at all the problem is this introduces us again to a

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The necessity of understanding something called the analogy of faith and what does that phrase mean it in in essence?

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is is illustrated by this question and That is that scripture is the context for the interpretation of scripture

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And that is because the nature of scripture in most instances if you were dealing with a merely natural book

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That would not necessarily flow from the nature of the book itself But given the time frame over which scripture is given and given the nature of scripture itself the the

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Totality of Christian truth is not to be found in any particular text isolated from all others

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You can take a text and you can isolate it from all others. What do I mean by that? Well, it's applied to this situation

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Total depravity is a doctrine that is directly stated in scripture You have the the direct statement of man's deadness and sin you have the direct statement of man's

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Inabilities over and over again inability inability unable unable unable the the statement of the of the

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Extensiveness of sin you just read through Jeremiah. Can that can the leopard change its spots? So can those then who who are accustomed to do evil can do good and and the whole point is they can't

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There is a constituent problem. You have Romans 1 you have all these texts that make these you know extensive and clear teachings on the subject and so by isolating a

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Judgment passage and saying well, okay. This isn't what happened, but the implication is that if a counterfactual had taken place that this would then imply a capacity in man

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Well, the problem is that's not what the text is about in the first place Secondly you're isolating it from those and it is those other texts

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It is the context of scripture as a whole. It is the revelation of God as a whole that provides the the ability to rein in that kind of errant reading of the text now this also brings up the fact that many people are somewhat troubled by the fact that That they want an answer on every single text

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That they'll frequently say there must be something in the Greek that contradicts that right? Well, look at this look at this text you're taking the implication of the negation of what actually happened and drawing a conclusion from from the implication and So you're not even dealing with the text at that point the issue isn't

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Greek. It isn't syntax isn't sometimes there are sometimes there are are are clear grammatical issues involved we had for example a charismatic

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King James only Arminian Come into the channel this week, and he was trying to argue that That in the second

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Thessalonians 2 Paul is saying that God chose us because we believe the ground of faith was was

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God's was our believing and The ground of God's choice was our believing and I tried to point out to him.

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No, I'm sorry That doesn't that doesn't work You're you're you're ignoring that the parallel in this phrase here and you're making a sub and I just went through all the all the grammar and syntax stuff with him and that didn't have the slightest bit of impact upon him, but There are times when that just simply doesn't work.

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I remember it's still up on the on the website There was an illustration from Mormonism where this one very intelligent

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LDS apologist had argued from John chapter 4 as I recall that that Jesus and his disciples were baptizing and I point out to him.

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No, you're you're missing the use the nominative here And you you know the grammar just all wrong at least he had the temerity

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Eventually to go. Yeah, you know what you're right. I I've misread that one all along and and you are correct

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But sometimes there's something right there that that you know Does answer the question but that's not always the case and especially in a situation like this where you have such an extended argument based upon implication and and Well, but if that didn't happen then this

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Clearly the the grammar and syntax isn't going to be something that's going to address a subject like that And sometimes people get just a little bit

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Concerned or worried if there's not a compelling argument of an isolated text that will protect it from misinterpretation and that's why

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I keep saying the entirety of Christian theology the entirety of Christian truth is delivered to us in the entirety of the

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Bible not just in any one text and So if you if you if you isolate any one text there are times

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When taken out of the context of Scripture you can read it in multiple ways and some of those multiple ways are heretical and untrue and false and That's what the cults do

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But you can't disprove that reading solely on the basis of that one text

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It's an issue of the entirety of the text that address that particular subject.

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And so we were talking there Specifically in regards to the analogy of faith and its importance at that at that point then one more

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Email that we have received By the way, the phone number is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three

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Three three four one. I have a theological question intramural Of course is I believe the concept or reality of predestination to be irrelevant in terms of destination

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To explain I mean to say that as long as one has accepted Christ as their Lord and personal Savior Then any doctrinal confusion on free will changes nothing

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My question is why would an atheist choose to accept Christ if he were to understand that is not his choice to begin with?

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I'm not Gotta admit sometimes The questions are a little bit difficult to to follow and to understand there

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That is first I wouldn't agree with a statement I mean to say that as long as one has accepted

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Christ their Lord and personal Savior than a doctrinal confusion on free will changes nothing, I I think that it has a

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Tremendous impact to just look at the difference in the kind of preaching that flows from someone who recognizes

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God's free will and man's creaturely will and his enslavement to sin and the

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Sovereignty of God and salvation and his freedom over against the creaturely freedom of a man controlling all things in essence and Those who

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Who believe the other I think it has a tremendous impact So I I think it does when it says changes nothing

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I don't accept that but then the the question is why would an atheist choose to accept Christ for you to understand that is not

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His choice to begin with well that that begs the entirety of the question and that is it's assuming that the only reason someone accepts

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Christ or repents and believes Is because they somehow feel like they have the ability to do so in the sense that well

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It's totally up to me. And so that that makes me feel good And so because it makes me feel good, then

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I'm going to go ahead and do this That's not the reason why anyone believes in the first place there is this thing called the

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Holy Spirit of God and there is this thing called the conviction of sin and there is this thing called regeneration and then taking out of a heart of stone and the giving of a heart of flesh and The the whole question seems to be based upon well, you know

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We have to we have to make the atheist want to do something. No, we need to make the atheist

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Understand who he is and he already knows who he is. We just need to be involved in reminding him forcefully through the power of the

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Holy Spirit that he is God's creature and he is suppressing the knowledge of his creator and that he is

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In a state of denial and if God is merciful to that individual He will reveal himself to him and draw him to himself and that's how true saving faith that will continue on Over a long period of time is is going to be born that person's heart.

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So I I would simply say Why would an atheist choose to accept

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Christ? No, why would an atheist? Bow the knee before his creator well because God in his mercy has removed the rebellion that is inherent

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In his in his heart and has been merciful to him That's how

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I would respond to that particular question eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We have three lines have lit up since I mentioned the phone number there just a few moments ago

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So we'll be taking your phone calls once we take our half -hour break and we'll be right back right after this

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Alpha Omega Ministries is pleased to introduce the Christmas morning CD by Todd Lindstrom Passion and peace are what sets

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Todd's music apart from others These 12 instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend a

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Christmas morning with your family You can find this beautiful music that celebrates the birth of our Lord in the bookstore at a omen org

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

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Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

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Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 26 grace if you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

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What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

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James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the

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Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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And we'll go back to the dividing line. We go to our phone calls and talk with Michael Michael, how are you?

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Hey, how are you? Very good. Thank you. Yes, sir Hey, I wanted to ask you I actually have a one question

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Then maybe the other ones more personally oriented about a situation I'm in with regarding baptism But I listened to your debate with Bill Shishko On baptism

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I got it off the net and I had a real trouble following one of your arguments

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It's simply because of the pace that the debate took place at okay, but repeatedly said that he was a

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Exegeting scripture in one place with a method that he didn't use in another to support his case for baptism

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I was wondering if you could elaborate on that a little bit help me understand that all better yeah, I was one of the primary arguments that I made and and that is that the

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Hermeneutic that is used for example to look at the text for example in regards to Lydia or especially to the

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Philippian jailer and to come to the conclusion that the rest of the family the

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Philippian jailers family Though they had had the word preached to them

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Rejected that word and were not saved and yet they rejoiced with him That he had accepted

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Christ that that seems to me too. I don't think that in any other context a reformed hermeneutic would see unbelievers rejoicing in the

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Acceptance of Christ by someone when they themselves have rejected that very same message and yet that's the kind of interpretation that you hear repeatedly

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Especially by those who want to very strongly emphasize. That's only he Had believed that he and he alone was his faith was the basis upon which everyone else was baptized and that they had not believed it's a very unusual way of interpreting the text and It only seems to come up in This particular area when we're dealing with this particular concept

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I don't see that if we were looking at any other text of Scripture where you have believers and unbelievers that a reformed

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Individual would jump to the conclusion that unbelievers are rejoicing in their rejection of the gospel

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But rejoicing with those who accepted it and and the same thing with with Lydia and this came out in the cross -examination

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Question and that was that I even asked In regards to the rest of the household a question and and Bill's response was oh

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I'm I would imagine the rest the household did repent and believe because that's what they did back then and I'm Yeah, and I still don't understand what it means to say.

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That's what they did back then I think what it means is if the head of the household did something the rest of them did it too, but Does that doesn't?

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Again that there's there's just such a different hermeneutic being used in those contexts that I even had some some

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Presbyterian friends comment to me that a lot of the presentation about children and Things later on the debate there

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They're just like I didn't really see the direct relevance to the subject of baptism of those particular

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Presentations. I said, yeah, I I didn't either and it really surprised me that the the closing statement in essence was

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This is all about the children and It's not all about the children. I'm sorry. It's it's all about Christ as king of his church

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Determining the the ordinances of his church. It's not all about the children and so That's just not how reformed folks normally

37:32

Exegete the scriptures and we're talking about the resurrection or the inspiration of scripture or the deity of Christ or or you know judgment justification, whatever that's not the kind of Interpretational methodology that I see in those in those situations.

37:46

Well, thank you. Thank you very much You know at this pace and out of the context of the debate the media context would be

37:53

I can follow what you're saying It might help a little bit once the DVDs are available because you hopefully

37:58

You know when you can see something and it sometimes will help and we're still trying to we're still missing one of the things

38:06

Aren't we? Well, I'm sorry Got it yesterday. All right, we got the second we got the seconds of video yesterday but now we've got to do is take two different types of video and the audio and try to figure out what was missing in the audio and try to Put all three of these things together if you can imagine what that's about and link them up So it's gonna be gonna be fun.

38:27

Anyway, I got one other Personal a little bit of personal application here about three four years ago

38:33

I kind of came around to the review reform review of things and Here in Central Central PA.

38:39

I mean, it's a lot different now than when you were here in the 70s But there's not a whole plethora of reformed churches.

38:45

I come out of a baptistic background, but we're currently Attended I just attending and just finished a membership program in a an

38:53

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Mm -hmm They know my beliefs on the baptism thing and they're they're working with me and that I'm under no specific pressure or anything

39:02

But here's my situation. All right, I am a believer in You hold two believers baptism only

39:09

But I think you'll be able to sympathize a little bit to your father, but I have a handicapped daughter.

39:14

Mm -hmm What do I do with her? She's been only have deception. She may never ever be able to offer a credible profession of faith.

39:23

Mm -hmm Well, you know toward the end of the debate Bill asked some questions along those lines and again,

39:32

I was a little bit confused as to what was being asked It seemed that he was asking.

39:39

Well, don't we have, you know objective? Promises concerning our children and and at the same time

39:44

I thought he had said he doesn't believe in in any type of baptism regeneration So I'm not really wasn't really sure

39:50

I was following the argument at that point But what I had tried to indicate in my response to a somewhat similar question it wasn't specifically about that kind of a concept, but I had said look, you know, there are all sorts of very

40:08

Difficult and challenging pastoral issues that come up in the church on all sorts of subjects

40:14

Subjects about which the the scriptures speak very clearly you think of for example The the teaching on resurrection is very clearly taught in Scripture and yet We know that when we talk about Infants dying in infancy or things like that or why bad things happen to good people and everything else

40:33

There's still you know pastoral applications and things that are not Simplistic in how you you give a response, you know, and when it comes to this issue in regards to to your daughter

40:46

You know the question that I would that I would obviously first have to ask is do you believe?

40:52

that you know, you don't believe given what you just said that baptism is something that is a

40:59

Salvific ordinance in the sense of it's somehow saving someone from their sins. No, I absolutely don't believe that Yeah, and I don't know obviously the the state of your daughter as far as If she's just has a diminished capacity or basically no capacity.

41:16

I understand at all. I don't know I have I have no way I would call it greatly diminished From what we see now that the depth of her ability to comprehend literally may never exceed

41:26

I know that Jesus loves me. Yeah. Yeah, so you know in that type of situation that the question then becomes what is the what is the purpose of baptism and What would be the the purpose and desire on the part of other people?

41:43

For a person to be baptized within that context. I mean, I remember and I Right, right we had

41:53

When I first came to PR BC are The man who became what we called our elder elder who passed away a few months ago he had a

42:03

Down syndrome son and his Okay, right and You know, he was there with his his elderly parents.

42:17

He lived to be about 52 54 is it was in his 40s? I didn't I thought okay.

42:23

Anyway, um, anyway, he was there Sunday in and Sunday out and That was a testimony to to all of us.

42:33

That was a testimony about his parents That was a testimony that that God was sustaining that family and we knew you know the difficulties that that are inherent in that situation, but it was a testimony to everyone and I would really resist anyone saying that that that testimony would in any way shape or form be lessened if this if That boy had not been baptized because I I don't believe that he was

43:02

I could be completely wrong about that But I don't believe that it's bit if he was it was long before they came to Phoenix for church it didn't happen it didn't happen there to my knowledge and The my point would be that that what is the nature of that testimony and is there an

43:19

Overwhelming feeling that that testimony is somehow going to be lessened without That and then

43:26

I would have to follow that that up with what about the Lord's Supper? right, I mean if we're going to be consistent then

43:34

Where are we going to go with that? Are we going to? You know same question different problem or however you want to put it

43:41

Yeah, but I but I see you know And that was what the arguments I made in in the debate is is I think there is a consistency in my position in that We treat the two ordinances consistently with one another

43:52

That is we have the same audience in in both ordinances, which is not the case with With brother

44:00

Shishko it would be the case with those Presbyterians who practice pato communion So my point was there is a consistency issue because consistency is important within the context of a debate

44:11

Dr. White I Related to all this and this is something I have yet to find a straight answer for Anywhere writing and perhaps there isn't a straight answer

44:20

Assuming that the you know the view of baptism that you debated with pastor

44:26

Shishko is right or that Believers only baptism is right. I mean one of them is going to be right one of them's going to be wrong maybe

44:33

I'm oversimplifying it, but what is the spiritual danger of Of Engaging in it wrong.

44:39

What is the danger for the incorrect party? Yeah, well, you know both of us I think sort of hinted at that though Both of us have in our own sermons on the subject

44:49

Indicated what we think the spiritual dangers are I will just briefly say that that my

44:55

Presbyterian brothers would say that the spiritual danger of my practice has to do with the not not

45:03

Encouraging your your children By giving to them what God has provided for them.

45:09

Obviously, we disagreed that that is a Part of God's provision for them in that context, but from my perspective

45:16

There are a number of things I've spoken to many a person who is baptized as an infant and it is very very difficult to avoid

45:26

Two things it's difficult for the person to avoid the idea Even if it is strongly preached against of baptismal regeneration that somehow that baptism that was theirs indicates that the favor of God given to them and that that exists outside of their

45:45

Personal confession of faith in Christ at a later time in their life I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to who trust in something that happened to them as a child when they were

45:53

Not even cognizant of what was taking place And view that as somehow their their entrance into the into the presence

46:00

Yeah, I have some personal experience that not with myself, but with with my wife actually who's raised in a

46:06

Lutheran, right? That's that's a tremendous danger, but there's also the danger of the parents It is

46:11

I have encountered many a good Presbyterian who while they may be outwardly might eschew the concept of infantile

46:20

Regeneration in essence function on a pre on a presupposition that my children are of the elect until they prove otherwise and I think that there is a major difference between approaching your children and saying

46:32

I'm going to assume that you are saved until you prove otherwise or Right or the way that I did it and that is

46:38

I'm going to assume that you are not until you prove otherwise And that is I'm gonna keep calling you to faith and repentance.

46:44

Yeah, so you know They're they're obviously I the whole reason we did a debate is because we both feel it's important enough actually to address in that context and take the word of God because While I can preach at Bill's church and Bill can preach at my church

47:00

I could not be an elder at his church and he could not be an elder at mine. And so there is a division Between us on that level and it does

47:08

I went through the membership program. That was made clear to me They said because I have a desire to Preach in the

47:14

Sunday school classes and they said that's fine But you're gonna kind of have to avoid this topic and actually you're going to be eligible for an elder, right?

47:21

So well, I'm not too concerned about that Yeah, and in fact the the terminology has been used to me is you would be able you would be able to exhort

47:27

But not to preach you have to be ordained to be able to preach. So That's just a terminology issue.

47:34

But you know, I I don't want people I want I want to call people to recognize that while we see this as important We don't allow it to divide us as brothers.

47:44

We stand shoulder -to -shoulder in defense of the gospel but yes we need to discuss it because it does have

47:50

I think important impacts upon the the nature of the church the structure of the church and it does have some theological ramifications in regards to the for example, my my argumentation about Hebrews chapter 10 in the

48:06

New Covenant and And the the perfection of that New Covenant some forms of infant baptism

48:14

Theology would not be able to use the same kind of argumentation against the mass that I utilize.

48:19

So I recognize these things and pray for the day when there will be you know, perfect unity, but that will probably be around the around the throne and Not in this this human experience, but all right

48:32

Thank you so much may God bless you. God bless you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right, let's go to Paul in Springfield.

48:39

Hi Paul Hey doctor, how you doing? How you doing? Good. I've got a question pertaining to It relates somewhat to Cantor's sermon that we were listening to earlier.

48:48

Oh, yes I know I had almost I had almost cleansed my mind of the recollection actually. I'm sorry

48:53

And here you know, it all comes flooding back. Yes. Yes. Um, I guess my question is this

48:58

Because I would agree definitely that it was a terrible sermon because you know

49:03

He did not deal honestly with the text. He just stood there and told jokes for the entire half hour Yeah, I don't know to be honest with you.

49:10

I wish he hadn't even read a text Yeah if he had just stood there for half an hour and told jokes

49:15

I could handle that a whole lot more than throwing in a precious text from Isaiah and then immediately completely abandoning it and going back to The the comedy routine that that would be a whole lot easier for me to handle personally

49:30

Yeah, I think I could do that, too. I guess my question though for you is At what point though?

49:36

What is what is an appropriate balance for using humor from a pulpit from your perspective? is

49:43

I guess what I'm what I'm trying to get at is that you know, I've got some some friends who are who are very very very orthodox in their reform views and You know and connects to Jesus scripture just wonderfully and yet for The average person in a church trying to listen to them.

50:04

They wouldn't be able to follow him very long because there's no interest Yeah, because it doesn't stick because it gets a little boring shall

50:10

I say? Yeah, and again that depends a lot on the hearer, of course Oh, yeah, but um, you know, there's some things that we have to do at times

50:17

I feel any way to hold attention and yes, and are you opposed to things of that nature or how do you feel about that?

50:24

Yeah, that's a it is a very important question. It's not an easy question I am

50:30

NOT averse to the utilization of humor It does tend to wake people up.

50:35

It tends to refocus people But the humor has to be natural to the person using it, right?

50:41

It cannot be something that's forced. It cannot I Really struggle with with purposefully inserting it

50:52

Beforehand in the sense of okay. I need to have this looks this topic looks like a three joker, you know

50:57

I that that that's where it becomes I think rather rather forced the vast majority of the humor that that appears as I speak is natural it comes from the illustrations it comes frequently self -deprecating

51:11

Which is pretty easy to do And And and I don't

51:18

I don't I don't beforehand go Okay I I need to use so many jokes or something in this in this anything along those lines at all if it's natural if the illustration actually

51:31

Directs attention to what you're attempting to accomplish it. It cannot take a life it cannot become something takes on its own life and becomes the

51:41

If people think back on your sermon and what they remember are the jokes you missed it

51:47

If all they remember is the humor you missed it. The humor should disappear Because all it's done is is refocus things and brought you back to the actual issue

51:58

Yeah, it can't be the centerpiece of what you're doing Which unfortunately is what it is definitely in in what we listened to earlier

52:04

So at the same time you mentioned something very important in sort of in passing and and that is

52:11

We do need to call The the congregation to a much higher standard in doing what we call at our church the work of worship

52:20

If people recognize that the central reason we're there is for this time period the prayers and the scripture readings and the hymns have been preparatory for this and that we are now meeting with God and We honor his word and we have one of his ambassadors standing before us

52:41

Who is prepared to bring to us the Word of the King and that this is our?

52:48

central act of worship is with hearing ears and seeing eyes and Obedient hearts to be hearing the

52:55

Word of God in this context They're going to focus a little bit better than if they have the idea that okay the fun stuff's over with I look at my

53:05

Watch, okay, hopefully I can survive 35 minutes I'll start doing my foot stretching exercises to keep the blood moving

53:12

So that I don't nod off, you know halfway through this and someone elbows me because I'm snoring too loud, etc, etc

53:18

If it's only seen as an appendage to the real worship That has already taken place in the singing and in the special music and you know all that kind of stuff then

53:32

You know there there really has to be some some instruction of the people of God as to what we're doing so that they can bring the right attitude to the to the ministry of the word as well, which then cuts back on the need for Speaking mechanisms to keep postmoderns awake right basically, so I'm certainly not averse to strongly calling people to that very thing so that you know,

54:05

I Maybe it's maybe it's wrong of me, but I'm still reacting in some ways to the

54:12

Experience I had at a very large Baptist Church many years ago where the ministry Minister of Education called me in and told me that when

54:18

I teach the Sunday school lesson in this adult Bible study department Which in that church the adult

54:25

Bible study departments were as big as many churches are in other contexts That I was to keep in mind that every lesson that I presented that every person sitting in front of me

54:36

This was the very first time they had ever been in a Sunday school And I was to do that week in and week out

54:44

Never go past level one week in and week out Maybe I'm just reacting against that and saying look that is that is a tremendous recipe for disaster

54:57

That is a recipe to keep people in the infantile stage of understanding and And to eventually drive those that are hungry away

55:07

Because you're just giving them just enough sustenance to keep them alive From one week to the next and maybe

55:14

I'm just responding against that. I don't know but Yeah, it may be the case But still I agree that Living by the weakest link is not going to get it done

55:21

And we do need to call them to a higher understanding, but I think it is a it is a difficult question Yeah, and I think

55:27

I think we know, you know, I think we know when we start pushing it And we what we need to keep in mind is who is our audience?

55:36

Yes, we we do need to keep people going with us. We need to keep people, you know interested in what we're saying

55:42

We need to work on our ability to speak to organize our material To to utilize our voices in such a way as to communicate with with force and clarity but the fact the matter is

55:53

They also need to be coming in prepared for Instruction from the

55:58

Word of God too and the balance Is that we we can't keep everybody especially if they've shown up after having been out till who knows when?

56:08

Saturday morning Saturday night Sunday morning and that they're just not prepared to worship There's we can't try to dumb it down or entertain them into sticking with us

56:18

I think that's where we've we've run into a problem. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much.

56:23

God bless. Bye. Bye all right, well that was excellent excellent questions and Hopefully just the way that we responded those questions provides a strong enough contrast to what we heard to start off the program

56:41

I Still am just left Shaking my head and in true wonderment. I didn't see that.

56:46

We had lost our last caller I was gonna try to sneak the last one in but of course that last call would have received approximately 70 seconds and and we know what happens when someone calls

56:57

The big man and only has 70 seconds and they get all nervous and and I'm not the big man. He's the guy who goes

57:04

Like that which is a very cheap sound effect, by the way, I mean, that's that's what did that cost us almost almost nothing at all

57:13

And a good microphone though, because if we had a really cheesy microphone, you might not be able to might not be able to hear it But anyway, we will be here on Thursday and in fact,

57:22

I will be joining Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron on Thursday on WNYG I'm going to be discussing a subject that I will be perfectly honest with you.

57:33

I hate talking about I Hate talking about it We'll be talking about grieving

57:40

We'll be talking about Surviving the holidays, especially if you have lost a loved one over the past year

57:47

It can be a real pitfall can be a real difficult thing Believe it or not I did write a book on the subject a number of years ago that many people have found to be extremely useful

57:55

I was a hospital chaplain and again many of you are going you're kidding Yes, indeed

58:01

But we'll be discussing that subject the reason I don't like talking about is not because it doesn't bless folks it does but because I never learned the secret of Turning off my emotions in dealing with those things.

58:13

I never never figured that part out. And so it's just exhausting It is extremely hard to do.

58:20

So But it's necessary to do once in a while. So That'll be on WNYG iron sharpens iron on Thursday at its regular time

58:28

Which I think is around one o 'clock our time three o 'clock, New York time I think is when it is So if you want to catch us then we'll be there and then here on the dividing line as well.

58:38

See you then You were standing at the crossroads

58:52

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59:01

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