TiL- Reformed Covenant Theology part 5

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Welcome to the truth in love podcast. Thank you again for joining us. We are on part 5 also known as chapter 5 of Reform covenant theology by Harrison Perkins stick with us and We'll start the show

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Welcome to the truth in love podcast Join, this Baptist and Presbyterian as they discuss theology and its application to life

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Together, let's seek the Son and glorify the Father Stay tuned as we speak truth in love.

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How you doing, Dan? I'm doing great. How you doing? I'm doing good Sorry for that. I got stumbled at the end because it's inevitable when you make changes

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Something goes crazy the it's not streaming to it

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So there was a notification popped up and I was trying to see what it was saying And so it stumbled me up a little bit.

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That's okay Thank you for watching the truth in love Do what Elon Musk messing with us?

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Well, I think when we have to postpone when things happen and we postpone And we ask it to to change days or times

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We mess with it too much Mess with a good thing. Oh, it's like feeding your mogwai after midnight.

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I got you exactly and then you get gremlins Yep, you never want to do that Yeah, the comment line is open as always whether you're watching now, we'd love to hear from you.

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If you're so inclined, but we're grateful that you're with us Along this journey as we minister together for God's kingdom tonight, like I said we are going to be looking at chapter 5 in Reformed Covenant theology by Harrison Perkins and To open up I told them that I wanted to share a little bit of my thoughts going into this chapter

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This chapter was a little bit tougher for me than chapter 4 chapter 4 was

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To me such a delight and a joy to read after 5 was

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Yes, it was it was a joy to read. However It it was a little bit deeper.

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It covered things that technical it was technical really technical really technical

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Deeper it introduced some things that I wasn't familiar with so it was a little bit tougher to read for me

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But it was it's still a good chapter and I'm looking forward to hearing hearing your thoughts on it

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Two things that I wanted to say first thing That popped in my mind. And of course,

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I'd love to hear your feedback Which is why I'm posed these things to you

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The first one is the covenant of works when it comes to Adam and I I think

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I don't know if it's just me or if I can represent the majority or at least some people that have lived on this planet when you think of the covenant of works or Or you oftentimes

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Here think about the the warning that we often give we're not saved by works

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We're not we don't try to work to earn God's favor or to please God, you know, that was accomplished on the cross

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It was accomplished with our Savior. So that's one of the things that comes to our mind when we think about the covenant of works however, as I was reflecting meditating contemplating on this covenant of works and And its relationship with Adam and God I was thinking

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You know, he wasn't trying to to earn anything What he was trying to do was

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Accomplish something he was he was building a house so to speak he had his

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God ain't giving him his commands. This is what I want you to do Adam and he was supposed to do that So he was trying to accomplish something.

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He wasn't trying to make up for something He wasn't trying to work toward to earn something to earn

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God's favor. He was just trying to his his deal was that he was to Accomplish the things

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God had told him to do. Does that make sense? Yeah, it was a Faithfulness.

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Mm -hmm. It was just here. I've set you up with everything that you need for success Keep on doing what you're doing and we're not gonna have any problems.

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Yeah, and We didn't until yeah, right

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So I'm only to the third chapter of the book Well, I took a hard left turn hard left turn

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So, I'm glad I was trying to you feel like I was tracking in the right direction with that thought the the other thought

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I had specifically with this chapter going into it is

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Um We're talking about the in this chapter. He talks about the covenant of redemption.

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Mm -hmm and I Feel like that he brings he brings out scripture and he talks about scripture

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To support his view but as far as somebody That's reading this coming in from the outside because I'm I'm kind of coming in Reading this from the outside.

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He is a Presbyterian. I know that there was some Baptists who read this reviewed this and gave

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Good reviews about this book Which which I'm agreeing with all the way so far

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Still coming at it from the outside because I'm not a Presbyterian But somebody coming in from the outside reading this

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How would you answer Or or how would you encourage someone who's reading it with those lenses that He is is not just merely trying to Make an argument to make his covenant theology it

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What he's calling the covenant of redemption Do you understand what I'm trying to say? He he's tried to To make it fit and that might be the critique

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Of somebody who does a whole covenant theology Yeah, I could see where somebody would think that What what he's trying to do is he's trying to take a very deep complex

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Subject and That it's not drawn from just one text of Scripture He's trying to take that idea

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Put it together and say this is what I'm saying and This is why

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I'm saying it and here's a scripture behind it. So in order to do that He says well, this is how it's it's been

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Just so you he's basically saying just so you know, I'm not out in left field that other people thought this I'm not just making it up off the top of my head

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Here's how it's been historically formulated So the Westminster device put it this way other people put it this way

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This is the idea that we're getting forward. Here's a scripture where we pulled that from it

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For some people they'd like to see it argued the opposite direction here's the scripture and then here's what we said, but I think sometimes when you have something as complicated or is not necessarily complicated, but Especially Yeah, it's complex.

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But when you're talking about about things That is basically the inner workings of the

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Trinity You gotta

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You gotta be careful and tread lightly, you know, you've got a and so in order to do that Historically there's been

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In more liturgical churches, there's there's a Sunday where they preach on the Trinity Some of the some of the the pastors that do it will take that week off Let their associate pastors preach and other ones call it heresy

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Sunday Because because no matter what happens, you're probably gonna say something wrong.

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That's heretical. Yeah, because You have to dot all your

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T's and cross all your I's except you don't do that you dot your I's across your T's so so what he's trying to do is he's trying to tread lightly and carefully by using language that's been tried true and tested and Then going back and showing you okay now that I've laid out what what we're aiming for This is why we're aiming in that direction is because the scriptures told us here here and here

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That God has gotten together amongst persons planned out what God's going to do for Redemption and then here's how he accomplished it and we're calling this the covenant of redemption

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Yeah, one of the things that I appreciate about what he did his approach to this chapter is he doesn't he doesn't just say

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Here's the covenant of redemption and here's a definition What he does is he he tries to not just define it but explain it and also he brings up Here's here's a conundrum.

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Maybe maybe even if you are in in his I don't want to say faith, but his

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Tradition his tradition good word Even if you're in his tradition or if you're coming from another tradition, you may have these thoughts

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Well, well, how do you how do you explain this? Because this is going to be a conundrum when you're trying to believe in or formulate covenant theology out of scripture and Covenant of redemption.

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How do you explain this conundrum and he? He spends a good bit of time explaining that conundrum

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Which I which I appreciate yeah, you want you want to be to answer your critics you want to be able to answer questions and be able to explain and that was one of the things

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I I really never had thought of Until I read this. I didn't know there was this conundrum to answer really in its relationship to Covenant theology reform covenant theology and covenant redemption

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So it was good to be exposed to that and and dive into it with him Even though I still doesn't

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I definitely do not understand it as completely as he does or probably you do so I'm looking forward to the conversation tonight.

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You kind of wanted us to Sorry about that my phone is connected to my computer because I got

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Apple products and so I got a spam call from Thanks somewhere in North Carolina of course and So when it rings on my phone and my phone is close to my computer rings on my computer

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So maybe I will just Use this airplane mode thing right here, and we won't have that problem

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Everybody everybody that I want to talk to is here at the house That's right. Well. I had you Robert of course.

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Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you didn't leave me out Yeah Especially on Something like the covenant of redemption what you're doing is you're it it make

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I think it makes sense I think there's a scriptural basis for it, but there is there is a

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There is a sense a an aspect of it where what you're doing is

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You're peering into The inner workings of the mind of God and that's something where No His Ways are higher than our ways his thoughts are higher than our thoughts why he did stuff even if he explained it to us, we probably wouldn't be able to understand it fully and completely and so because of that Because we are you know looking at things that are that are absolutely beyond us my question is

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What place or how important or in what way should we utilize or out to what extent should we utilize a covenant theology so obviously

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Baptists have one type of covenant theology Presbyterians have another there's new covenant theology, and there's all sorts of little variations in between but Of all those things you know what place does it take in the the pecking order of our theology

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Is this an overarching? hermeneutic that we use to interpret everything in Scripture is

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This just something that comes along and informs us about a certain aspect of God even though you know it's throughout the whole of Scripture You know what?

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What exactly? What place do we give to covenant theology in the grand scheme of things

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Because obviously we believe it's important enough to have a book and talk about it We think we find it in Scripture.

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So it's important because we believe God's revealed these things to us But what is the position?

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What place should it take in? our theology Now the question

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I wanted to ask you and get your thoughts on and then I'd kind of give some thoughts on it myself

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Then we'll go we'll get into That way I can delay myself long enough to where I can talk about the

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Trinity just a little bit and maybe not commit heresy myself Yeah, we would like you said that's hard not to do because we

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Totally we don't understand the inner workings of the Trinity totally and so you hit the tiptoe carefully tread lightly when describing the

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Trinity I have from my understanding you How you approach scripture?

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It's it's a it's a means Is one means of interpreting Scripture? I'm understanding how

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God is is working and dealing with this creation and to the two of the biggest ways

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You mentioned the there are different forms of covenant theology But in opposition to that you have the dispensational view and and so how you

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Whichever one you hold is going to affect how you interpret Scripture how now you see

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God dealing with his creation and so in it inevitably

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By doing that it's going to it's going to affect how you you view certain doctrines certain theologies

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Mm -hmm So, yeah, I think it's I think it's a it's a pretty big deal

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Some people you know, and and I would be I would lean more towards this direction just because I'm I'm not as like I'm not a studious but yet The I feel like the

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Spirit gives me just like he gives everybody else a desire to know him more So therefore

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I want to know about this to the best of my ability to to the greatest extent of that my brain

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Has capacity to understand it But you know, you have that mindset.

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Well, I just want to read the Bible and get its application But but following that desire

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From the Spirit to know God more you're inevitably going to get into things and you may not understand the the terminology

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You know, we we use we use this terminology like covenant theology reform covenant theology

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Dispensationalism and all these different terms for different doctrines and different parts of theology They all have technical terms in their complex and so not everybody especially as a pastor you have to keep in that that in mind when you are preaching you have a wide array of levels of depth in study in theology

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So you have to keep that in mind And and some people may want to stay where it's it's easier to comprehend and of course in my nature my

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Former nature wants to pull me back towards that and just be lazy and and not dig into it and Not do the hard digging the hard study

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And just say let's just read it for what it is, but as you learn and grow and you get into these things

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You begin to see how important Using these terms are knowing what these terms are knowing what these different theologies are because it helps explain

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Who God is and how he is working and dealing with his creation? And It has effects on us practically as well

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You think about? Just like one of the things that's that's huge right now in some circles is eschatology

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Eschatology definitely has an effect on how we live practically And so how we view

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How God is working with his people is going to affect how we live out that understanding

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So that's kind of my initial thoughts on why it's important this

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To study this to dig a little bit deeper To have some kind of a grasp on on where you stand whether it be dispensational

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Of theology covenant theology reform covenant theology new covenant theology

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Presbyterian covenant theology You know, we can get deeper and deeper into those things, but we want to know how

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God Is working with his creation because it doesn't affect us practically how we live that out

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Yeah, so I was I was thinking a little differently Not that I disagree with anything that you said, but I was just thinking a little differently as as to what

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I meant by By important or what place should it have? Okay It was probably the way

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I asked the question because I don't know if I've kind of kind of put it out

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I was just thinking that Maybe what what should be our central

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I'm gonna say it then I'm gonna explain it. What should be our central theological motif or other words?

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What should be? Central in our theology and maybe what should be what should be what should be cast in the lead role and What should be cast in a supporting role?

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And then what does that mean? for us so For instance you see things like like Luke 24 27

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Where Jesus is on the road to Emmaus? He's talking to the folks. They don't know who he is.

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And he said He started with with Moses and the prophets and he talked about the whole

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Old Testament About how all of those things were about him. Um, you look at John 714 where it says that if you knew me you would know the father

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You look at first John in the fifth chapter where it talks about us if we if we know or one of the

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One of the reasons why we if we know Christ, then we are knowing

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God That was part of the purpose of us knowing Christ. So Does covenant theology take that primary role?

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Or is it a secondary to some other doctrine which I would say maybe theology proper and Christology pneumatology, you know, basically a theology of the full orb

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Trinity especially our our Christ and then maybe covenant theology shouldn't be as central as As well some people have made it now it doesn't mean it's not going to inform just about everything

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That you read because you know, it's it's throughout the scripture God deals with his people on the basis of covenant.

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But what does that mean since God being? Perfect holy righteous triune

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No immutable all of the the great incredible wonderful things that God is

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Then what does covenant theology mean to us and I think what we gain from covenant theology then

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Isn't so much a hermeneutic but an incredible Amount of assurance in the faithfulness of God to us

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Because what we see is God making and keeping promises to us from the very beginning of Scripture you know if you

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Know covenant of works if you will Obey me and live With me, you'll be blessed.

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If not, don't eat your surely die But even then he makes the promise and I'm going to crush the or the seed of the woman's gonna crush the head of the sea the servant

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Abraham Through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed. He goes on to to to Isaac and Jacob Jacob in chapter 28

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I just found out I'm preaching on this the next Presbytery. So I've been looking through it I don't know how

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I'm gonna fit it on the timeframe. They gave me but They the same formula given back to Jacob Jacob I'm gonna make you like the sands of the sea

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He and then Jacob turns around and says or he says I'm going to take you I'm gonna have you return to your father and Jacob says well if God returns me to my father in peace

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I'm gonna follow him and then the next few chapters like everything looks like he's gonna fall apart He goes to find his wife.

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He's given another wife. He has to work for 14 years instead of seven now. He has two wives What I'm gonna do with two wives and a bunch of bunch of kids.

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I got I don't have any wealth of my own How am I gonna go back home? Then he works for for for labor and it changes his wages, you know

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He says you change my wages, you know seven times ten times But in each and every instance and then he the reason why he left in the first place he goes back and he saw and He saw doesn't hate him anymore

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God was faithful To the covenant they made with his people and we see that happen over and over and over throughout

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Scripture God was God made a covenant. God was faithful. God made a covenant. God was faithful So what does that mean when we come into contact with that?

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Holy God? It means that we knowing Christ know that everything that he has promised us is real and true and sure

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The things that he has promised us He will follow through on and that's incredible because even when we are unfaithful even we were sinful

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We were still made right with God through Christ based on his promises and not our own actions.

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So I Almost think that while it's really great to study covenant theology

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It's better to place it in a subservient role to knowing our

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God no, as a as a second not necessarily second tier of importance, but a second tier below Who God actually is and then this is how we know he's faithful because because covenant theology proves the faithfulness of God throughout history and The faithfulness of God on into the future.

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So that's why my mind was going I was thinking through that it was Just interesting to me.

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Well, I would say that your conclusion brings the two together Yes, if we look at covenant theology as just a hermeneutic then yes, it's going to be it's you know

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It's always going to be a secondary issue Because we're gonna we're gonna differ on hermeneutics to it to a degree

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I'm not in a way that changes, you know, our core fundamental beliefs of the faith, but But when you

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Bring that thought that that you were talking about that aspect of covenant theology to me it brings covenant theology or that aspect of covenant theology to that other level of Helping us understand

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Theology proper we're understanding who God is Because of our understanding of covenant theology

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And you were talking about his his faithfulness is He's he's always going to be true to to his word his promises he's going to keep those

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It helps us understand, you know Anthropology who man is but also it helps us understand who

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God is and so when it comes to looking at scripture and we see that God is always going to be faithful.

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He's always going to keep his promises We learned that he's the only one that can do that We learned that man could never do that man always failed at doing that and and God always kept and always will keep his promises and to me, it's it's

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It's tied into our understanding of his sovereignty That God is

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God is sovereign God is in control and This covenant that he makes with himself it which is something we learned in this chapter.

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I never put those two things together He talks about the the plan of salvation.

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That's that's The terminology that we're familiar with terminology that we use plan of salvation.

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What in other words? We're talking about the covenant of redemption It's what he says in this chapter plan of salvation is the covenant of redemption and so only for us to be saved a

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Covenant has to be made by somebody that can keep it and That speaks to the character and nature of who

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God is that he has the ability to to not only plan it and Fulfill it but to keep it

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So it speaks it speaks to who God is To to a great degree

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Which to me Yes, if we kept it in that hermeneutical hermeneutical area

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You know, it would always be more of a secondary issue than theology proper Christology But like I said that aspect of covenant theology helps us to Glean a little bit about who

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God is That's the real purpose of it now here's where it gets a little dangerous if we invert the importance

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If we invert the importance of say the doctrine of God and Covenant theology and instead of covenant theology serving

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To show us an aspect of God in his character We then look at The doctrine of God To tell us about his covenant and what it means for us

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When you get the cart before the horse, it seems like you you almost could have a you could have a

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Potential pitfall where you're placing yourself a lot closer to the center of your theology and Could because you're you're you're kind of roping your redemption into the center aspect when your redemption isn't the center of Reality God is

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Now and that's why I wanted to bring it up You know,

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I don't have an answer to this one, but have have people in the past Put covenant theology or dispensationalism in that place.

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That's Too central to the exclusion of Things are more important It's just one of those things to watch out for Yeah to Constantly keep the main thing the main thing to trust in our

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God and who he is Got him. Yeah, I hope so.

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No, I didn't rip there instead of anyway Instead of making it all about us because if there's one thing that we know through scriptures with we're a bunch of bums

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Right, so we don't need to be putting ourselves in the middle. We can get ourselves a lot of trouble in that way But when we allow covenant theology to inform

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The faithfulness of God it gives a lot more pastoral Comfort to us that the

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God who exists When he does reach out Toward us to act is going to act

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Faithfully, it's going to act if he's made promises. He's gonna keep them It's also scary because he's also promised to punish sin

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But there you have the two sides of the coin You have your law and gospel to where the law can either condemn you the law can be

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Something fulfilled in Christ for you where your righteousness is comes from him

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So, uh, maybe maybe I'm you know, I'm making mountains out of molehills or something

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But I think it's it's it's kind of it's important to To roll around in your head a little bit just to make sure you got your your

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You don't have the trailer before before the truck, I guess. No, I think that's a great warning.

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I think it's something definitely talk about because you just look around and Look through history

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The central motif Has been man even even in churches and And I can reflect on Goes back to the sinker sensitive model

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That was just just as one example the episode that we did on seeker sensitive church model You know, you would speak to a leader in that church you speak to a

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Leader or church member in in any church and and I feel like the the words that we would say would be the right words

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You know, we we want to glorify God We want to be gospel centered but then to weigh our words with our decisions and how we

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Model things how we plant things Is it matching up with our words?

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Because it seems like a lot of our decisions that we make the consequence of those of those decision makings would be that No, your central motif your central motif is man.

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It's man -centered And so this you know, this is a great warning even coming at theology could be

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Man -centered If you if you leave out that aspect that we're talking about of learning who

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God is and letting God tell us about who he is Well, yeah, even if it's not man -centered if you if you place

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Something other than God in the center of your In Your primary center of importance when you think about things you you go off the rails even if it's it's close

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You can overemphasize certain things, which I think is probably where most Most real

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Christians who have Some issues that we would point out that is probably where they go off they have taken some aspect that is true and it's somehow at least in practice kind of cornered out

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Or at least I don't know. It's kind of taken focus away from where where it should have so,

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I mean, I don't know what that would look like say you may be in a in overthinking

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I don't know infant baptism or something Not that I'm changing my position on infant baptism

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I'm just saying you know, maybe you you overemphasize it to a point where you you start making some wild claims or maybe you under -emphasize

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The the sacraments because you think that it doesn't matter as much or I don't know

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I mean it could it could go a whole bunch of different ways and it looks different for for different errors, but it's just it's just What what

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Christ has made central is himself So I think we should we should strive in everything that we do to make him central as well, right?

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Totally agree now 24 minutes left we get to describe the

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Trinity and what the Trinity thought When I wasn't there, so no chance of getting in trouble on this one.

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I Do want to say this look at one of the things that I highlighted Before we jump into the

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Trinity, this is this was I Feel like I'm tracking in the right direction because something he says here is is

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Very close to how I was thinking about Governor works about about Christ earlier

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On on page 102. This is what he says the covenant of redemption Being a covenant of works for Christ, but a covenant of grace

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For us explains how Christ will fill the covenant of works for believers rescued in the covenant of grace, so You know me digging more into the covenant of grace covenant of works covenant of redemption and trying to figure all this out understand it in my own mind and I Can see now how the covenant of works in its relationship with Adam, you know

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Ended ended with Adam, you know, that was kind of works was this that's that was the sphere of the works was in with was with an

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Adam and So that the covenant of works is not not necessarily With Israel trying to earn their salvation through the law coven of works ended because That was his deal.

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He was trying to accomplish something It it did in it didn't

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Because Mankind believing and trusting in God without sin is

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Righteousness It's it's because you've been they've been given righteousness in creation and then you have faith to trust in God that if you

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Follow him and don't eat from this tree. You're going to gain a reward from it. That's that's a

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That's the covenant of works. It never really went away. It's just that we all have sin, right?

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And that's what I think he's getting at is that with the second Adam He accomplishes that covenant of works, but then the benefits that come that he secured

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We can't gain by works So he has to give them to us on the basis of grace

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Right, and the grace that he gives us is to have faith in him and he washes away our sins

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Yeah causes us to be everything that we weren't in the garden, right and that's kind of where I was going with it in my mind

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Yeah, I don't know that I even was thinking about Adam I will my relationship with coven of works in my mind

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I was thinking about Israel and the law and that it ended at the cross and Now we have the covenant of grace you had the covenant works and you have to come to grace

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But him so with me trying to piece all this together I would what I was seeing in Scripture was

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Covenant of works and covenant of grace kind of run a parallel line and this is kind of affirmation to a degree with that line of thinking because the second

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Adam Jesus like you were talking about He what he didn't have to earn anything.

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He wasn't trying to make up for anything that he had done Um, he was his mission was to accomplish something just like He did have to make up for something but it wasn't his deficiencies it was ours, right, that's right

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Yeah, and so his mission was to accomplish that accomplish that mission kind of what it was saying,

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I forget where I said that he he might it was it was fitting that the How they put it is fitting the

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Son of Glory would be made perfect through suffering We've been made perfect he is perfect.

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Mm -hmm. But what was he being made perfect he was accomplishing our Active the act of obedience that would be given to us

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Yeah, because we we don't we can't have that we don't have a righteous standing before God we have to be given that righteous standing before God and that's something that Christ came to the earth as as God and man to accomplish for us to to to grab for us so that he could graciously give it to us and that we could we could receive by faith, which is incredible because He gives us that too

39:59

It's really the grace of God is that we would believe and trust in him when we don't want to And so in my mind that covenant of works has ran this this line throughout or Continuously and then full, you know

40:17

Fulfilled in Christ and continues in Christ, but also even though it's accomplished.

40:22

It's out workings are still being Here's the thing the way that we see the covenant of works actually laid out and spoken to us in In scripture is is when we hear things like like this.

40:37

Um I'm gonna get that guy. I don't If y 'all are listening about audio there's a fly

40:44

I'm gonna get him But the one who who the one who says you have to be circumcised needs to keep the whole law

40:58

One is going to be justified by works Needs to Needs to do so completely the one who

41:08

You know if you don't follow me you're going to be punished as he told the the ones in the

41:15

Old Covenant those things where you see the law and how the law is held over us as Something that points to us and says you were imperfect and you deserve death

41:27

That right there the law to us is the reminder that we have broken that covenant with God in the garden because We can't go back and unbreak the covenant.

41:38

We can't unring the bell We can't on we can't take the toothpaste put it back in the tube. We can't do anything like that We can't undo this sin.

41:47

We can't uneat the fruit so each time we run across the law and the law shows us it shows us that we are sinners that we

41:56

Have done something wrong. It is a reminder to us that that covenant of works has been broken and that Somehow else if we're going to find redemption at all

42:06

It's can't come from us doing anything because we have already that ship has sailed for us. Yeah however

42:14

Christ did keep the law. He did accomplish the rice righteousness. So we gave away so because he's done that We can now have righteousness and that's what they're the

42:25

Trinity was planted out amongst themselves in eternity past Was we're gonna do with these guys, you know, not because it was a surprise to him.

42:34

Yeah, well because I don't know why I was trying to say because but God glorified himself.

42:43

It pleased him to Be the land that was slain before the foundations of the earth to choose a people to be

42:51

You know brought together and purified in himself Adopted his sons it pleased him to do all these things

42:58

I'd like to say I know why but I don't I don't know his ways or why he did it.

43:03

Yeah other than What you said which comes from Scripture, you know to things that it pleased him it glorifies him.

43:13

Yeah Yeah, right The flip side of that coin is the the covenant of grace which

43:21

I said Didn't just start at at the cross but it has pair is parallel the covenant works and has run continuously from the beginning and Harrison Perkins even touches on that towards the end of this chapter that he's trying to answer the question

43:40

Well, how can Christ fulfilling this mission this outward mission? Be effectual for Old -testant believers and he goes on to explain that because it's the covenant of redemption.

43:52

It's governing grace even back Well, the the covenant of grace is simply the covenant of redemption announced

44:00

To sinners who are in need of grace. Yeah so So dive into the

44:06

Trinity. I know that's where you wanted to go. No, you saved me a whole nother 15 minutes worth of having to hear about it at Presbytery.

44:14

So So we're we're good but the Trinity Very basics the

44:24

Trinity is the doctrine that God one God Eternally exists as three persons

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Those persons are the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit They're the same in Majesty glory divinity

44:45

But not to where they share a third of it what but that each is Each is glorious each is

44:56

Divinity but not three divinities and glories and eternalities, but just one

45:04

Trying to say all the whole Athanasian Creed without actually saying it and So with that in mind which

45:14

Tough is it's tough already Yeah, Father Son and Holy Spirit one God three persons, but how are these three persons different?

45:23

I know Not different. What are the distinctions between the three persons? Now you can talk about the

45:30

Trinity in a couple different ways. We talked about it as an ontological Ontological Trinity ontological is a very fancy word for basically how something exists

45:38

You know, what is the nature there was a reality of of that thing?

45:44

And in that case, we would say that the father is the unbegotten one

45:51

That the son is eternally begotten of the father Which means that they've always had that father -son relationship, but there wasn't a time where Jesus was not he was always

46:02

He was always son and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both of them

46:07

That's historically how you you've or Distinguished the persons of the

46:13

Trinity now when you come to the covenant of redemption

46:21

You have God doing something and that's where he comes out with this

46:28

This doctrine called the doctrine of inseparable operations Do you want to explain that one?

46:37

Do you want me to? Um So this is where he brings in those those

46:44

Latin terms Which was which was new to me and something I had to dig into and you can you can elaborate more than I'm Latin But in a nutshell, this is how my mind saw it so correct me if I'm wrong sure

47:01

It said he calls it. He He refers to a wheel as a

47:07

Walter. This is what they they want to do. And so when it comes to their their sameness

47:14

They have the same wheel You and and and so how could the the conundrum that we're talking about early in the podcast is

47:23

For for more than one For someone to make a covenant with someone else

47:32

They have to won't want to do that separately But the

47:38

Trinity has one will Right amongst themselves So the covenant the way

47:45

I'm understanding of the covenant could not have been made in their internal Working which he calls and this is a

47:53

Latin word add intra. That's their internal working and And so that's the covenant could not be made there because they have the same will you don't have two different wheels

48:04

Wanting the same thing and so they come in it together the where the covenant is made is

48:11

What he calls in Latin add extra Where you were talking about their distinctions sure their their work their mission outside of who they are

48:23

Internally internally, they're the same their their outworking mission are are distinct

48:32

And so that's where the covenant was made this covenant of redemption this plan of salvation

48:39

Right, yeah, God has has that single will one one other thing that's important to to know in Van Maastricht, and I don't know if you're ever gonna read him or not, but Fantastic volumes.

48:55

I mean, it's just great He's kind of kind of old. He's no really old dude, but he's long gone

49:04

But he he brought up a point that I really enjoyed the way he put it up And oh man, my mind just went blank

49:13

Well, you can't rely on me on this one I know Go back and say what you said before.

49:20

What were you talking about? I don't oh God is Yep, before I forget

49:28

God is He's puts like this is God is pure act In other words

49:36

God's thinking something and doing something aren't necessarily Separate there.

49:43

You can distinguish them and You can distinguish no a thought from from an actual action, but but God God's will to have something done is

49:54

Is so Closely Related to his doing it that they they can't be separated

50:03

So what that means is that if God wants there to be something there is something

50:08

God says let there be light. There's light so when God Had the single will to redeem mankind mm -hmm that when it came into action

50:25

And it's terrible way to put it when it spit out into what we consider the reality around us

50:34

Um, it looked like The three persons were doing three different things to accomplish one goal when really that was one goal that was one will of God The whole time

50:48

Here's here's where we make that distinction as regards to The Trinity there's another description of the

50:56

Trinity called the economic Trinity That means is how does the Trinity work like what what has it functioned and In that we say that the father decrees something to have in salvation specifically the father decrees salvation

51:13

So one will of God the father then decrees it the son accomplishes it by becoming you know becoming man

51:23

Taking on flesh living that perfect life Accomplishing righteousness dying on the cross for our sins laying in the grave defeating it rising again ascending into heaven

51:33

He accomplishes salvation for us Bringing this

51:39

Making a time at once for sins on the altar in heaven and then sitting down the right hand of the father and then how

51:44

Does that come to us that comes to us through the Holy Spirit who then applies that work to us?

51:50

So the father decreeing the son accomplishing and the spirit applying that work to us is

51:57

All the result of that one will of God that the redemption of mankind would occur in time

52:04

It got in there if it didn't come out I didn't know well, that's the doctrine of inseparable operations

52:11

That's how we connect Well, that's how we relate that doctrine of inseparable operations with add intra and add extra right internal works of God and the external works of God that The they have the same will

52:28

That can't change but also What else the the other thing that can't be separated even though they're their works outside of?

52:39

the internal will Their their distinctive works are different It's always going to be in relationship to what that one will is

52:52

Sure And so whatever operation the father's doing whatever operation the father the sons or whatever operation the spirit is doing

53:00

It's not going to be separated from that one will right? Right, so so so what we see as the father decreeing the son accomplishing and the spirit applying is the one act of Redemption that comes from God in heaven.

53:16

Yeah That's right. That is Mind -blowing it is an

53:23

Incredible right and I will spend the rest of eternity trying to figure out how that one works. I think but It just goes back to what we're talking about earlier

53:34

As complex as this is It just shows us we're not we're not the central motif, right

53:45

If we understood all then we would be God God is much higher.

53:51

Like you said God is higher than us. His ways are higher than us He is incomprehensible

53:57

We can only comprehend what he reveals what he allows us to comprehend There's so much more and beyond that we we can't comprehend and so it speaks to his nature

54:07

Speaks to his character that he is that he is faithful that he is good that he is just That he is faithful to his promises this covenant theology speaks to all those things about who

54:19

God is and how wonderful he is and how How beautiful the complexity is?

54:27

before we run out of time I Caught this analogy that he used we talked earlier about the covenant of grace.

54:34

It's on page 119 kind of mill the page he we talked about the covenant of grace and Just helping to explain how

54:45

Old Testament believers who had not heard the the

54:51

Romans Road nobody nobody gave them the Romans Road presentation or friendship evangelism Romans back then

54:59

Exactly So how were how were they saved? And and I appreciated this analogy.

55:05

I thought it was simple Simple enough for me to understand and so I thought it was clear and good

55:12

He says this on the other hand you could go into the bank and legally transfer the loan into his name

55:20

So that the debt truly became his to pay So you had a debt?

55:28

Somebody comes into the bank and puts it in their name Leaving you no longer liable at all so now

55:37

Jesus is Liable or or that other person is liable for the debt that you owed

55:45

But at the same time it releases you from that debt Even if he does not immediately pay off that debt

55:53

You are forgiven of it because he has taken full Legal responsibility for it this transfer tape makes him the ex promisor the true guarantor now responsible for your debt and that helped me to understand a little bit better about how

56:13

Old Testament believers could be forgiven because Even though it hadn't been paid in Time in Eternity past from the foundation of the world.

56:26

Yes, it was seen as accomplished but in time it had not been paid but yet The debt had been put in another another's name

56:36

And that they were and that's why the Bible refers to Jesus as the lamb those slain before the foundations of the world

56:43

Yeah, yeah, so they were legally cleared because it was in somebody else's name

56:49

You know, isn't that amazing it is If you don't are you do you have anything else to add to the chapter?

57:00

No Want to give you that opportunity because I mean there's so much more in this chapter, but there is

57:07

I think we We're not even to the next subheading. I Don't know we

57:13

I think we hit The highlights, but yeah, there's there's a lot more yeah

57:28

Takes me three hours to read the chapter. We'll talk about it in 57 minutes.

57:34

I don't know Yeah, I mean we're gonna spend eternity talking about God's plan of works grace redemption

57:47

And it's gonna be glorious but what he's revealed to us now is is as beautiful as we can comprehend beauty and so we're thankful for it and it brings us back to the gospel and As we talked about Believers before the cross

58:10

He also talks about those of us who are After the cross and how we can look back just as they look forward in time to the

58:20

Messiah to come We look back in time at the Messiah who came this

58:28

Messiah that we've been talking about who is Jesus Christ the second person of the Trinity the Son of God who who in accomplishing this covenant of works so that he could

58:41

Offer and Fulfill this covenant of grace and and complete this plan of redemption that was

58:51

Accomplished planned willed and accomplished through the Trinity Father Son of the Holy Spirit This is a lot of a lot of big words that we're using a lot of complex theology but the fact of the matter is

59:09

This offer goes out to the world because God is redeeming the world to himself because of our federal head

59:20

Adam who was our representative Sin entered the world and Through sin all men have broken

59:32

God's law The I'm always amazed and Instructed by James chapter 2 verse 10, even if you keep the whole law yet stumble at one point you're guilty of it all

59:45

So through sin entering the world all men Have a fallen nature have sinned against God.

59:54

We've broken his laws. We've broken his commandments We can't as Dan was saying we can't go back and undo what was done.

01:00:01

We can't Earn our way into heaven. We can't make up for the wrong that we have done or anybody else has done we can't pay our way out of Anything Even if purgatory exists we couldn't pay our way out of it.

01:00:22

We can't be Baptized by water for ourselves or for somebody else

01:00:29

To make us right with God We need the

01:00:35

Holy Spirit to regenerate us we need Christ work applied to our lives

01:00:43

We need his righteousness applied to our account That's the only way that's that's the only thing that's important in this life

01:00:56

We can we can learn how to have a successful life we can

01:01:05

Build our own kingdoms make a lot of money have a lot of fancy things help a lot of people

01:01:13

But none of it amounts to anything unless we have been born again by God and Therefore are in return through the

01:01:24

Holy Spirit living for him Nothing else matters like Dan said but God and so we encourage you to Be receptive to who you are before God that we're all sinners and we need

01:01:40

We need his Forgiveness, we need his salvation. The Bible calls us to repent of our sins to turn from them and Turn to Christ and faith trust in him trust in his work trust in What he accomplished?

01:02:00

for God's glory and For our good and then serve him serve him

01:02:11

The best of your ability In gratitude for what he's done for you. Repent of your sins put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

01:02:18

We have you do that Then would you mind to close us in prayer? Yep God in heaven.

01:02:25

Thank you for your goodness and your grace to us pray that you would keep us safe Bring us to your son cause your spirit to work among us mightily and for you to Save us in Christ name we pray.

01:02:43

Amen. Amen Thank you, Dan. I appreciate you a whole bunch. Thank you all for watching and listening.

01:02:49

We appreciate you again Leave us a comment. Let us know that you were with us if you have any questions

01:02:55

Let us know critiques or if you need prayer. We'd like to pray for you But again, thank you for watching

01:03:02

Remember that Jesus is King Go live in the victory of Christ go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.