Don't Forget Today's Radio Free Geneva!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

00:37

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:50

James White The mighty fortress is our

00:55

God Bull work never I don't like Calvinist because they've chosen to follow

01:03

John Calvin instead of Jesus Christ. I have a problem with them they're following men instead of the

01:08

Word of God our helper he amid the flood of mortal ills prevail

01:17

Top of my feet standing on a stump and crying out he died for all

01:29

Those who elected were selected for still our ancient foe

01:36

Does seek to work us woe? his craft and power are great and with cruel

01:45

Well, first of all James I'm very ignorant of the

01:51

Reformers on earth is not easy. I Think I probably know more about Calvinism than most of the people who call themselves

02:02

Calvinist Did we Confide our striving would be

02:12

But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that so ever

02:18

We're not the right man on our side the man of God's own choosing

02:26

Doomed before the womb you ask who that may be

02:31

Christ Jesus Lord saw both his name read my book from age to age

02:47

And now from our underground bunker hidden deep beneath Liberty University where no one would think to look

03:02

Safe from those moderate Calvinists Dave Hunt fans and those who have read and reread

03:08

George Bryson's book We are radio free Geneva Broadcasting the truth about God's freedom to say to his own eternal glory

03:20

And welcome to radio free Geneva. Yes indeed a special edition of the dividing line today and many

03:27

Thanks to all those who contributed To the production of our new radio free

03:33

Geneva introduction music theme thingy and I was actually thinking about having a

03:39

Contest as to who could call in the fastest with the complete list of everyone who is cited

03:45

The opening theme, but I know that I'll go knew it before I did it.

03:50

So that's completely unfair and I'm terrified of the man. Anyway, welcome to radio free

03:56

Geneva Where we as the radio free Europe broadcast the truth into occupied

04:02

Europe So too we broadcast the truth into the occupied evangelical church where so many of the traditions of men

04:10

Have become predominant, of course before we get to the main discussion today.

04:16

We do need to remember The Friday the 13th pronouncement by the

04:22

Chancellor of Liberty University Dr. Jerry Falwell And it's going to start here in any second

04:31

That's okay. It's for that reason and we believe here at Liberty in the substitutionary atonement of Christ for all men

04:39

We believe that Jesus Christ was the perfect God man Who died upon the cross of Calvary to take my sins your sins the sins of all humanity upon himself and that?

04:51

That anyone who trusts him who believes it is death burial resurrection is born again

04:58

We don't believe that Jesus Christ died for a select few Sometimes called the elect we believe that whosoever will may come and that no one is left out we are not in the into particular love or Limited atonement as a matter of fact, we consider it heresy

05:18

And so we are Believing that all men everywhere in every age

05:23

Can be saved if they will come to the Living Christ who died for them And of course what we have of course in that clip is dr.

05:32

Falwell Starting off talking about the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ now anyone who knows church history

05:40

Is well aware of the fact that the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ is a reformed

05:46

Doctrine it is a doctrine that comes out of not only the Reformation, but reformed theology as a whole and that of course would mean that to then start off saying you believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ and Then go and say that limited atonement is heresy is well just a little bit on the inconsistent side

06:09

But we have discovered unfortunately that Liberty University is not exactly a place where you are encouraged to have both sides

06:16

Speak out and debate interestingly enough in a meaningful fashion those particular issues

06:22

So most of you heard about that of course already. That's not really the big thing this week, but It is sort of sad to hear dr.

06:32

Falwell doing that particular type of a type of a thing so Be that as it may that's not really the reason that we are having radio free,

06:41

Geneva today Today I am going to spend some time responding to the teachings of one

06:49

Steve Gregg as Steve Gregg the narrow path up in the northwestern portion of the

06:56

United States then again that's also where Dave Hunt is up that direction and Over the years we've gotten a number of emails

07:06

I remember back before we moved down here at some point I don't remember what year it was someone had sent me an email and You know this guy seems to be better than then than the rest and you might want to take a look at his stuff

07:19

And I and if I recall correctly I downloaded some of the sound files I've not been able to find them, so I don't know if that was just before we moved

07:25

I just don't remember the time frame but Since a number of people have said well.

07:30

You know you really need to listen to this Steve Gregg guy Basically insinuating that we've been picking on the low -hanging fruit

07:37

You know that George Bryson Dave Hutton come on. You know these guys just really aren't

07:43

I'm not sure they'd say about Norman Geisler, but They're just they're just not they would even Norman Geisler.

07:48

He's even better Norman Geisler. Oh, okay. Well anyway So I took the time to download the nine

07:57

MP3 files each just under an hour and a half each I've listened to a six of them so far so that's about nine hours worth of Listening that I've done and listening to Steve Gregg, so let's let's start off by pointing out

08:13

That there seems to be some people who are already jumping up and down and having a complete fit that we would even bother to interact with what mr..

08:23

Gregg has said and I'm not sure why they behave in that fashion, but the fact the matter is that we have a long history on the dividing line of Playing the comments of others and interacting with those particular comments, that's something we do in regards to Roman Catholicism Mormonism John Dominic cross and Marcus Borg John Shelby spong

08:48

Islam we have a long track record anybody who wants to look back in our archives can see that we have been engaged in this kind of direct apologetic

08:57

Response and in the area of the subject of reformed theology for a very very long time

09:02

So oh I just love those those McAfee things I haven't reset my machine, and so it wants to be reset now, and I'm just gonna

09:11

Let it sit there just sort of ignore it, and hopefully it won't do that again because I'm not resetting my machine

09:17

McAfee You ain't gonna force me to do it Did that scare you there a rich you're sort of looking a little jumpy in there.

09:25

I got it covered man If it doesn't again, it's dead I Like my laptop do not shoot my laptop, please.

09:34

Thank you anyway, that's That's that's that's funny anyways.

09:40

We've been doing this for a long long time and so there's nothing unusual in my Responding to to Steve Gregg at all let me talk a little bit what

09:49

I've heard in the nine hours worth of stuff that I've listened to so far Steve Gregg is a better speaker on this subject

09:58

Than Dave Hunt which isn't saying a whole lot of George Bryson Norman Geisler, there's no question about that Steve is easy to listen to he's understandable he doesn't bounce from subject to subject to subject to subject to subject as some people do and So it's a whole lot easier to listen to him on that basis

10:21

At least the beginning of the series It seemed like he was making a real effort To accurately represent the side that he was clearly going to be disagreeing with He has read some books on the subject.

10:34

He admits he's not read any of mine, which is fine. I'm a nobody that's no big deal, but I certainly would like to hear some interaction with the exegesis that I've offered but And I I think that his exposure is very limited primarily just to RC Sproul and and to some

10:52

Puritans For example, I don't see any evidence of having read any of Jonathan Edwards if he has

11:00

I've not heard any interaction with him certainly John Piper a Justification of God no evidence of any interaction with that.

11:07

So there's a there's a limited range there But he does quote from RC Sproul a good bit and especially from some of the tape series is that he did there are times when when

11:18

Steve really tries to Reign himself in there are times you can hear him getting going you can hear the the the the speed of his speech picking up and There are times he can become somewhat

11:31

Engaged in a little bit of mockery of the position that he is going after and there are times

11:36

He will stop himself and say well, you know, I really shouldn't say that or Sorry about that You know,

11:42

I I shouldn't misrepresent anybody, etc, etc. So there's more self -control

11:48

Than You would find in a lot of other people. I mean that Steve Gregg is no John Modine.

11:54

Okay. I mean there's there's a light -year separation between Steve Gregg and and John Modine and People like him and a lot of the folks that we've played on Radio Free Geneva and so that that needs to be acknowledged right right at the start that I appreciate those things and That this is an opportunity to actually engage in Meaningful give and take on this particular subject in a meaningful discussion without being all

12:25

Mean and nasty and things like that So having said those things and appreciating the spirit that that he normally keeps doesn't always keep fails a number of times

12:37

Overall, I've not heard anything that I've not heard before basically There are some real

12:44

Problems with mr. Gregg's understanding of the system that he's critiquing I do not see evidence that he has engaged the exegesis that is offered by Reform theology to any major depth.

12:56

I don't get the feeling that he is Greek literate I think he is has some functional ability to identify terms and things like that But there's a long difference between just identifying terms and understanding grammar and syntax and usage and so on so forth and There there are a number of misrepresentations number of straw men that that come up all the time

13:17

He can sit he consistently says that we don't believe man has a will which again is is, you know, obviously hasn't read

13:23

Edwards on the freedom of the will and Consistently says that God makes all the decisions for us

13:29

He doesn't he totally rejects though he mentions it rejects the meaningful application of God ordains both the ends and the means first primary causes secondary causes and So far on the key texts when he has finally attempted to engage the reformed exegesis of these things

13:51

I Just have not found there to be a whole lot of substance in the exegetical comments that are offered

13:58

The reformed exegesis is basically ignored and there are a number of times when he says it's the reformed people who?

14:04

Ignore this or ignore that when I know entire books articles and things like that have been written on the subjects that he says we are allegedly ignoring but again

14:13

Mr. Gregg even this past week in our correspondence said he's not read the potter's freedom I or I would assume God's Sovereign Grace drawn by the father

14:20

Any other books that I've written that are relevant to this this particular subject now, I wasn't going to say anything much about mr

14:28

Griggs presentations, even though I was listening to them I was sorely tempted after every time I'd finish, you know listening to an hour hour and a half of it to make some comments on various things, but After hearing the commentary on John 637 and Then a commentary on Romans 9 19 through 20 that I honestly believe turns the text completely on its head completely upside down that I decided you know,

14:53

I I'm gonna pop a cork if I don't take the time to respond to some of this So that's why we are engaging this particular subject at this time now

15:03

We should note that that there you know, Steve Gregg is straightforward

15:09

Though he's uncomfortable Giving a name to his position Steve Gregg is is an avowed synergist and avowed semi

15:17

Pelagian whether he wants to agree with those terms or not I can document plainly from the nine hours worth of lectures.

15:23

I've listened to so far That that is an accurate description of of his position that he certainly is a synergist

15:30

He certainly believes that God can fail to save someone he wants to save he does affirm that God's Seemingly affirms that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of future events

15:39

But I would assert has absolutely no meaningful foundation upon which to resist open theism

15:46

Because it really seems to me that while he may say God knows what's going to happen in the future The the means by which he describes

15:53

God's interaction with mankind His trying to save people but certain people just being too hard for God to be able to save them

16:03

Really raises all sorts of issues in regards to the doctrine of God and nature of God His immutability his knowledge of future events the whole purpose of creation all these things are raised and unfortunately

16:16

He seems to believe that the the the five points of cows them all hang on total depravity rather than recognizing

16:22

That the five points of Calvinism hang upon the doctrine of God and his decrees He does address that but he addresses that only after Presenting the five points and and doesn't really seem to see the connection there

16:35

Just to give you an idea. Let me play a couple short clips first. Just give you an idea he he does at times get a little bit on the

16:47

Straightforward side shall we say and in fact in I believe this is talking about RC Sproul He makes the following comments now.

16:56

I love to quote Sproul because he's such a classic Statement of what Arminian and what

17:01

Calvinists say and And his reasoning shows how illogical

17:08

They are and how I mean he's he's the epitome most Calvinist look to him as we he's our boy

17:14

He's our poster boy of modern Calvinism. I say well, I'm so glad he is Because he sticks his foot in his mouth so terribly and yet he's a professor of theology and philosophy

17:26

And he doesn't even see the irrationality and illogic of his own statements. Check this out so Irrationality illogic self contradictory, you know, these are the the kinds of statements that that Steve Gregg Makes in regards to Calvinism if you're if you're gonna make that kind of statement and I I make that kind of statement

17:49

I make that sent kind of statement about Gail Ripplinger and then I demonstrated it and I make the kind of statement about The exegesis offered by Norman Geisler in chosen but free and then

17:58

I demonstrated it and the question is can Steve Gregg Demonstrate what it is that he is he is talking about for example at another point in regards to the doctrine of limited atonement now he's addressed this already and I suppose it's possible in the last few programs the last

18:19

Four and a half hours worth of stuff that I haven't listened to yet That he's going to go back and There will be a full discussion of Owen's death of death and things like that But so far he's already spent a good deal of time a limited atonement

18:32

Never addressed the strongest arguments for it. Not once that didn't even show any familiarity at all with the connection the connectedness of Christ role as high priest the offerings the high priest the intercessory work of Christ Nothing about them at all

18:51

Seem to think that the the strongest arguments we could come up with was well Christ died for his sheep or Christ died for his friends and and So on so forth and almost nothing in Hebrews touched upon or any of that stuff

19:05

And so I was frustrating to listen to that But having said all of that here we have a comment in reference to limited atonement and in my opinion

19:13

Limited atonement is is one of the worst one of the weakest It is truly the weakest point in Calvinism It has the least amended all the scriptures that are given in its favor are really equally capable of being interpreted differently

19:28

They don't say what it what it's affirming and therefore the non

19:33

Calvinist Rejects this idea of a limited atonement and believes in a universal redemption or general atonement issues for example he frequently makes reference first John 2 2 and accuses

19:45

Calvinists of Just avoiding the plain reading because of their system and yet I want to just you know

19:53

Yell across the vast space between us sir. Didn't you see the word propitiatory sacrifice?

19:59

What does propitiation mean? Who is really avoiding the obvious meaning of the text here?

20:05

What does propitiation mean and if it is if you're going to take this in the

20:10

Western mindset of particular? Individuals rather than the Eastern mindset, which was written Then at least deal honestly with what the word means it means sacrifice that removes wrath

20:21

Why would there be any basis for wrath if it the basis of wrath has been removed in a propitiatory sacrifice?

20:28

That's why our minions don't believe in substitutionary atonement because they recognize if there is such a thing as substitutionary atonement

20:34

Then everyone's saved if it is made for all men, and so that's why they reject that That's that's the whole the whole point of the whole thing so there are some other things to that you know

20:49

Well this one especially and before we get to John 6 and and I really honestly think

20:55

That there's a fundamental theological problem in Steve Greg's theology that he just may not be aware of I mean

21:02

And again people are gonna jump all over me for saying this, but let me just lay it out there

21:07

He for example meant Made reference to the lapsarian controversy and in fact. I think

21:12

I have That here yeah right here. Here's here's here's what he said about the lapsarian controversy, and there's all kinds of Disputed subjects there's the what's called the super lapsarians and the sub lapsarians and so forth

21:28

Don't you wish you knew what those words meant? Wouldn't you feel more spiritually enriched to know what those words meant are you a sub lapsarian or a super lapsarian well frankly?

21:36

I'm a I don't know that I'm I'm either of those but assuming Calvinism to be true.

21:41

It is assumed that God decreed the decree by which every person would be saved before a

21:48

Certain point the sub lapsarians if I understand correctly believe that God's decree of salvation to the elect

21:54

Was before the lapse before the fall their sub lapsarian Those who believe that God waited until man fell and then decreed who would be saved our super lapser

22:05

It is great that in medieval times. I guess or maybe laughed after that probably in the reform times Between the sub lapserings and the super lapserings, but these guys had one thing in common with each other

22:16

They were Calvinist and or at least essentially and they both agreed that God Decreed infallibly the salvation of certain individuals and decreed the damnation or or as Calvin put the reprobation of Certain individuals and he made this decree either before man fell or after he fell the only difference opinion is whether he made that decree

22:35

Before after that is like splitting hairs to my mind the real issue is did God in fact infallibly

22:42

Sovereignly decree that X person would be saved in X Y or Y and Z person would be lost is that a scriptural doctor well

22:49

We'll talk about that, but let's see what the so if you're familiar with the supra not super and Infra lapsarian controversy then then you know that mr.

23:01

Gregg is not That was not an accurate description that was placed in time, which is not what the issue is the issue is order of decrees in eternity

23:10

It's not waiting till after the fall or anything like that the lapse part was correct but the issue is where does

23:19

God's decree of election fall in relationship to That element of his decree that involves the fall of Adam whether it is infra or supra is it before or after logically not temporally

23:35

In in the order of the decrees and so the only reason I raised that is not to mock mr.

23:40

Gregg because the vast majority of Christians haven't a clue what the infra and supra lapsarian positions are

23:46

The point is if you're gonna call RC Sproul irrational and logical you might want to do your homework

23:52

Okay, you might want to do a little bit more reading because it seems to me that where You missed the boat here and and where mr.

24:01

Gregg has missed the boat is he's created a theology that is focused upon man in essence and the result is the the viewpoint he presents of God is

24:12

Incoherent and indefensible as I said I do not believe that he would have any ground upon which to resist

24:19

The claims of open theism because he has admitted almost everything that they themselves

24:24

Use as a foundation of their position. I believe an open theist is a consistent Arminian and I don't think that mr.

24:32

Gregg would be able to to fight off the approaches of an open theist that demonstrates you've made it you've made a mistake someplace and He he refuses to recognize the difference between eternal acts of God and how that eternal decree interfaces with time in Providence things like that and the result is a

24:54

Really mixed up theology in in regards to to God and in regards to how how

24:59

God could possibly have knowledge of future events His his emphasis upon the issue of man's will and and a libertarian

25:13

Autonomous will ends up resulting in this kind of a presentation in regards to the conversion of Paul Listen carefully to what he says and then ask yourself the question

25:23

How could God truly have knowledge of future events or even accomplish his will in this world if this in fact is?

25:31

the reality What really? Does not override man's will to rebel

25:37

I? Say generally because God is God he has the right to do whatever he wants

25:44

Certainly we read of God opening somebody's heart to hear the gospel. We certainly see God moving more powerfully

25:51

Influentially in some lives than others Even in very rebellious much we see God for example appearing to Saul of Tarsus in a way that he doesn't appear to most people

25:59

I Dare say there'd be a lot more people in heaven today Had God appeared to all sinners the way he appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus There are people who no doubt would be converted today had they had such a revelation

26:13

Sodom Had they seen the miracles that Jesus did would have repented in dust and ashes long ago

26:21

Jesus said it would have remained to this day, but he didn't send those miracles. He doesn't give everyone an equal

26:28

Opportunity I do believe God gives everyone opportunity, but the biblical view of sovereignty does not mean that God necessarily

26:35

Has to give everyone the same degree of opportunity God's choice in this matter I don't understand he desires all to be saved

26:42

But he he intervenes more in some cases than others to turn a sinner around But generally speaking certainly in the larger number of cases

26:51

God does not intervene to turn the sinner around in any forcible way Frankly, I don't think

26:56

Paul Saul was turned around in a forcible way I think I think if he determined so he could resist even that vision

27:03

There are people who've had notable manifestations of God in their life and they still resist it'd be very hard to Some some manifestations are harder to rebel against than others, but I believe that in the final analysis

27:13

Saul still made his own choice I think God made it an easy choice for him made it hard for him to make the wrong choice

27:19

But still Saul I believe made his choice of whether he would obey the heavenly vision or not He later said to either

27:25

Agrippa. I think it was or one of the others He was given his testimony to his eye. I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision

27:30

He described his conversion on the road. He says I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision I'm not saying he's implying anything, but it kind of sounds like He's suggesting that would have been an option, but he didn't take that option.

27:42

I didn't disobey it. I obeyed Now it sounds to me. It's very difficult to understand that outside of him saying yes

27:51

Saul could have resisted the vision and not been saved. He could have remained hardened in his sin and not been saved

27:58

So how could God have ever planned to use Paul?

28:04

To accomplish his purposes in writing the New Testament evidently could have said no, I guess Mary could have said no

28:11

And and Moses could have said no Maybe Moses was the third or fourth or fifth person on the list and the first the first had already said no

28:20

But the problem is how then do you have prophecy? How how could God ever say that in in 70 years, this is gonna happen and 70 years later

28:29

He tries to do it and and the almighty creature Thwarts him with his will and it takes him two extra years to do it.

28:36

So now it's been 72 years. The prophecy is wrong I would want to ask mr. Greg. How does God have knowledge of future events?

28:43

How could God name by name? Cyrus and say Cyrus is gonna let the people go people go because quite obviously if Cyrus decided not to do so Then he didn't have to do so and he could he could resist

28:57

How does God give prophecy? How does he have knowledge of future events? Like I said, this kind of argumentation is what open theists use and and mr.

29:05

Greg would be a consistent open theist He's not a consistent non open theist That's where the inconsistency lies and it flows from this theology of God and what he doesn't seem to understand

29:15

Is that he keeps saying Calvinists believe this because their system their system their system actually Calvinist believe this a exegetically

29:21

But what he doesn't see is what holds us together is our view of God the consistent view of God his decrees what he says he does etc, etc, and that that fact that God does know the future you have to answer the question how and How does man's will interface with that decree of God and that's why

29:41

I even asked mr Greg do you deal in depth with Genesis 50 20 and Isaiah 10 and acts 4 27 20?

29:47

He says he does deal with them I've listened to Genesis the Genesis 50 thing. It was very very surface there wasn't there was no depth to it and there was no recognition that in Genesis 50 when when

29:55

Joseph says You meant this for evil God meant this for good that God's Meaning that action was just as much before the action as the attitudes of the brothers

30:06

He doesn't seem to see that he changes it into the God can make good things come out of bad things that's not what

30:12

Genesis 50 20 says and Those passages are simply impossible in his system and therefore

30:20

That's what make it makes the system as a whole in error on on his part and so Those are just some of the the primary issues

30:29

He really does get to the point where he seems to hold to a view

30:36

That is not fully Pelagian But it is at least

30:43

Semi Pelagian, I put a clip on the website and I want to play for you what the the clip

30:49

I put on the website to advertise the program today Listen carefully to the assertion here that in Romans 1

30:57

This isn't talking about all men This is talking about some men who suppress the truth not all men suppress the truth

31:03

There are some men who for and this is just it he he recognizes that Calvinist keeps saying hey

31:08

You're saying that some people are better than other people. Oh, no. I'm not saying anything about merit Let's let's leave the third term merit out if there are some people who suppress truth and some people who don't and it's

31:18

Outside of the realm of God's decree in God's grace that means in some way share perform if I've embraced the truth

31:24

It's because I somehow a more spiritually pliable. I am more intelligent. I am more insightful I am

31:29

I am more godly something. I'm somehow better Than someone who continues to suppress truth listen to what he says about Romans chapter 1

31:39

Another way that he reaches out to the sinner and influences sinner is by manifestation of the truth

31:44

Not only the manifestation of his grace, but also the manifestation of the truth and we read in Romans chapter 1 verses 19 and 20

31:56

Because what may be known of God is manifest in them that is the unbelievers for God has shown it to them

32:03

For since the creation of the world his Invisible attributes are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made even as eternal power and Godhead so that they're without excuse

32:12

Now God has told them the truth. He's revealed truth to them

32:18

This is what draws many of us to him. There are people To whom the truth is attractive and who?

32:27

Seen the grace of God and the truth are inclined Toward it, but there are others who are not even in this passage in Romans There are those in verse 18 who suppress the truth in their unrighteousness, and they are without excuse they could have done

32:40

Otherwise, that's why they're without excuse Because they didn't do the what they did was not the only option open to them

32:48

That's why they're without an excuse they had another option they could have acknowledged They could have accepted, but they chose rather to repress it and to suppress now two things it

32:58

Basically there you have certain people who are inclined to truth and certain people who are inclined to suppress truth

33:04

That's not Paul's point, and what's more the reason they are without an excuse without an apologetic as Paul Actually put it is not because they had some other choice.

33:15

It's because of the clarity of the revelation of God Exegetically it is the clarity of the revelation of God that renders them without excuse

33:25

Not because they somehow had a free will some type of Libertarian Autonomy that is that is gross eisegesis.

33:33

That's reading into the text something. It's not even slightly Suggested to actually be there and so you put all this stuff together, and you've got a major problem now

33:42

I'm gonna look next to John 637 after we look at John 637 the comments here. I'm throwing open the phone lines

33:49

I want to get to Romans 9 as well, but we can do more than one program We can't next week, but we we get back.

33:55

We can continue this phone lines eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight Seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number for you to get involved with the program today

34:06

If you would like to comment of what we've heard already Then we would be glad to speak with you at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

34:15

That is a toll -free number if you are Scottish so John chapter 6 verse 37 we have so many times presented this text from John chapter 6 as a strong proof text as a text that defies the interpretation of Of any viewpoint that does not see

34:36

God as utterly sovereign in the matter of Salvation and so how does

34:43

Steve Gregg deal with John 6 we hasn't gone through the passage yet in what I've listened to this is

34:48

Just a a conversation a little bit about John 6 a little bit about John 6 44 I think

34:53

I know where he's gonna go there, but especially John 6 37 all that the father gives me now before we listen to this remember the good way test whether people are dealing with John 6 in an exegetical fashion or an

35:09

Isagetical faction fashion whether they are allowing the text to speak for itself or whether they're just trying to get around the text and read something into it is to remember the fact that This section is uttered in explanation of the unbelief of the

35:26

Jews Even though they've sought after Jesus even though they've come across the lake

35:32

Jesus says to them you are Unbelievers you are not believing

35:37

Why? Why are they unbelievers? Why is it that on one day in John 6 there are 5 ,000 men?

35:45

Excited about Jesus's teaching and the by the end of the next day. There are 12 confused men one of whom's devil

35:52

What happened? What what's going on here and If an interpretation has to leap out of John 6

36:00

Leap to something months or even years down the road Isolate it from its context then isolate

36:07

John 6 from its context and read something from that text back into this text That does not explain the unbelief of the

36:14

Jews does not explain how it is that there are some who are believing there are some who are coming to Christ and There are others who refuse to come to Christ even though they'd like to see him do more miracles

36:26

They refuse to come to him for spiritual nourishment. They are going to be stumbled by his teaching that he is the bread of life

36:34

If it doesn't explain any of that, then it's not I said, it's not exegesis. It's eisegesis. It's reading into the text something

36:41

That's not there with that in mind Let's listen to what Steve Gregg says

36:47

Concerning the subject of John chapter 6 probably the only verse I can imagine that looks like it teaches

36:54

Here's this little grace for a couple verses are found in John chapter 6

37:01

One of them is John 6 37 She said all that the father gives me will come to me

37:09

Okay That sounds inevitable if the father gives them they will come And of course in the same chapter verse 44, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me

37:20

Draws him about drags him Okay, let me just say this to my mind.

37:26

Neither of these ever prove that That that no one ever resisted successfully the grace of God as far as the dragging part

37:34

God drags As a non Calvinist I can certainly say that I've seen people dragged by God Right to the altar

37:43

However, what they do there is their choice and not every I mean, I've seen God rape people over the coals

37:50

I've seen him put him put them through the meat grinder. I mean, this is truly his way of dragging them

37:57

For himself, but I have seen such people once dragged still say ultimately no

38:03

This is not where I'm going And we there is nothing in this statement that says he drags them irresistibly or draws them irresistibly

38:12

He must draw them But there's nothing that says that they are incapable of resisting his drawing since other scriptures make it clear that people do resist

38:20

God's drawing there's no reason to read that into this verse since it doesn't say that more importantly I suppose the verse

38:25

I always thought strongest for irresistible grace is verse 37 here John 6 37 All that the father gives me will come to me.

38:32

It's stated as inevitable How could he make that statement unless there's some way God has way of guaranteeing it, but I was not at Early in my life as aware as I am now what

38:43

Jesus meant when he talked about those that the father gives him I used to think that the he was talking about throughout all history

38:50

Everyone who's saved is just those that the father gave him and and all of those that God wants to give Jesus will come to Him but Jesus identifies in John 17 who those are that the father has given him in John chapter 17

39:07

And verse 6 Jesus is praying to his father. He says I have manifested your name to the men whom you have given me there

39:13

They are the ones that come to him are the ones are given I've manifested your name to the men whom you have given me out of the world.

39:18

They were yours and you gave them to me and They have kept your word.

39:25

What's he saying? Those that God has given him who are they were they the devil's people know they were there were God's people before You see

39:32

Jesus came into history at a time when there was a remnant of Israel that were already God's people And when

39:38

Jesus came God gave that remnant to him Okay, these were not people that were

39:46

Disposed to reject God that God inevitably drew them to himself But rather these are the people that were already by their own choice

39:52

God's people. They were part of the remnant of Israel They were already the father's people and the father gave them to Jesus.

39:59

That's what he says. They were yours He doesn't say they were the devil's people and you gave them to me. He says they were yours and You gave them to me who was

40:08

God's before Jesus came the believers within Israel the remnant they were

40:13

God's people and Jesus says and you took those people who were already your people and you gave them to me

40:21

Well that it's fairly predictable than that all that the father gives him will come there already people who decided

40:27

They're already there people have already committed to God. They're already committed to following God and when God says, okay This is my son hear him.

40:33

No, of course, they're going to come to him It's as good as inevitable. It's certainly predictable that they will Because they're already people who've made a decision in that it to follow

40:42

God and to be committed to him. They're they're loyal They're God's loyal people. And so of course when he gives them to Christ, they will come to him

40:51

It's a mark of they're already. I Must have missed the cut. They're already believing in him, which means all that already believe in me

41:00

The father gives to me to believe in me. I Again you

41:06

It's it's difficult to know even even where to begin. There was much to be said about John 644 At the beginning there.

41:14

There's gonna be more of that later. Let me just briefly mention. I've not seen any evidence Mr. Greg is aware of the fact that His exegesis requires us to believe that there is a disjunction between the two hymns in John 644

41:27

We know that George Bryson never figured that out and evidently Steve Greg hasn't been challenged on that point as yet That he is basically saying to us no one is able to come to me unless the father sent me draws him and Then Jesus says

41:42

I will raise somebody else up at the last day. That's that's the Arminian position That's that's the non -Calvinist position is that the two hymns are different if the two hymns are the same then everything you just said about John 644 makes no sense

41:54

Because those who are drawn by the father are raised up by the son and he has to be able to demonstrate from the text

42:00

There is a disjunction between those those two uses the word him that there's a reason

42:06

Why you must see now I point out very clearly that in the argument that Jesus is making to the

42:11

Jews It makes perfect sense That he's the one who raises up the one that the that is drawn to him by the father because of John 637

42:18

But when we go to John 637 then we have The assertion that All that the father gives me are the people who've already come to me

42:31

Basically is what's being said. They're the remnant of Israel. They are the faithful ones So again, we go back to this this nigh on to Pelagian semi

42:40

Pelagian view that you have these people who don't suppress truth who are who are have a bent toward believing and They're the remnant now, of course, it's

42:51

God who's reserved the remnant in the first place and it's God's work that did that not because they're somehow better than everybody else, but More spiritually sensitive or whatever else it might be.

43:00

But but the idea that this is the context first why go to John 17? Well, there are similar concept.

43:06

Yeah, okay There's some similar concepts, but does that mean these people staying in front of him would have had any clue what he was saying? Are you really seriously suggesting that when

43:14

Jesus responded to Jews? There was no way they could have any idea what in the world he was talking about Isn't there a difference in the context between John 6 and John 17?

43:22

You better believe there is So why is it that every single time that Jesus talks about men being given to him?

43:28

Why does it always have to be for salvation? He later on and I didn't play this clip, but he later on goes on for on a long time

43:36

See Judas was given to Jesus the old John John 17 I've lost none of them except the son of perdition the scriptures might be fulfilled and actually suggesting

43:46

That means that Judas was given to Jesus for salvation even though of course it says he was a son of perdition the scripture might

43:52

Be fulfilled but somehow God was sort of schizophrenic and he gave him Jesus to be saved even though that he was a son of perdition

43:57

And there's nothing the text even begins to suggest that that is how it should be taken Why is giving the father giving someone to the son in John 6 and John 17?

44:07

Why are those synonymous? Why do they have to be synonymous? What in the context demands that why can't you have one place?

44:12

The Apostles being in view and another place since it's talking about people all down through history the the elect of God Why especially since we're talking in verses 38 and 39?

44:22

About the very will of the father for the son that he lose none of those that are given to him Does mr.

44:28

Greg believe that the son fails to do the will of the father that he's incapable of doing that? I think he might say that because he does say

44:34

God fails to do things good that God God Wants to do things he can't So he might

44:40

I don't know but that's one of the questions that I of course would would ask But the question really is we go back to John 6 37 again

44:49

All that the father gives me will come to me He's talking about people who've already come in faith to God that reverses the verbal order of the clause if This was the way mr.

45:04

Suggested it would be all that the father will give me have already come to him

45:13

See, but you see this idea. Well, all the father gives me will come to me. Yeah, they're already believers. So there's no big deal

45:19

How does that in any way shape or form explain the unbelief of these Jews? It doesn't Well, they just weren't of the remnant

45:28

We want to talk about isogenesis here we want to talk about reading into a text something here We've got it now

45:35

The action of the father is what results in the ones given coming to Christ it is simply gratuitous and utterly a contextual to read into this text a

45:50

Previously having come to the father in this process making them the remnant and so on so forth

45:56

Does that then mean that John 6 is only about first century Jews? That seems to be the only way that people can get around this

46:03

There's that other fellow that I've talked about on the blog Let me remember his name that has all sorts of odd beliefs and he's he's come up with the idea that This is only about he's got some hyper dispensational perspective

46:17

And so all of John 6 is just about the Jews of the first century. It's only relevant to them Is that what's being suggested here?

46:24

That's the only way I could really understand Taking John 17 about the disciples and applying it here would mean that the one who comes to me

46:33

I will certainly not cast out is only relevant to the first century Jews. In fact, only those that were alive during Jesus ministry

46:40

Is that is that how anyone down to the history of the church has read this? The the entire thing about feeding upon Christ that's not relevant to us today

46:48

Is he not still the living bread is it you know, we can't pick and choose this way To just to get around the fact that Jesus's response the unbelief these men was not oh if I just give you some more signs

47:00

No, they'd already seen the signs That's not going to convert anybody they didn't recognize their spiritual need and They were not of those the father gave to the son

47:12

All the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me. I will certainly not cast out why?

47:18

Because it is the father's will the son be a perfect Savior. That's what John 638 to 39 says, but mr

47:23

Greg even though he quite rightly and I if I'd had time was gonna play this he quite rightly says, you know

47:30

What most people who apostatized in the faith were never Christians in the first place? But there are some who truly were so he doesn't actually it actually believes a person can be truly regenerate united with Christ and let and Yet God won't throw him out

47:43

Christ will throw him out. Nobody else can separate him, but you can jump out yourself It's the old, you know, you go to John 10 and and no one shall pluck them out my father's hand

47:50

They shall and well, you see God won't do it Jesus won't do it. Nobody else can do it, but you can jump out type thing

47:56

Which of course would result in their destruction, which is the exact opposite what Jesus was saying? Anyways, all of the man -centered theologies have these things in common and that's what we're looking at here is we're looking at the difference between a

48:08

Theocentric gospel and an anthropocentric gospel and as long as you have a God who tries and tries and tries but fails

48:15

Once in a while, he's successful once why he does his best My question would be well, then how could he ever know who's going to and who's who's not going to?

48:24

If God's decree does not give give shape and continuity to time itself in creation

48:30

Then how does God know what the end is going to be? How is he with the the first generation in the last? It simply doesn't make any sense eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and We've had some folks who have called and let's go ahead and Start with Jim on Ephesians 111.

48:49

Hi Jim. Hey James. How are you doing? Good? Hey, you know This is great because I've been listening to both you guys for years

48:55

And I'm one of those people still in a gray area because I just can't make up my mind or maybe

49:00

God hasn't made it Up for me yet Listen, Jim, I'd like to ask you about I've been reading your thing

49:06

About mr. Olson about Ephesians. Mm -hmm now You believe all things in verse 11 means absolutely everything

49:15

Yes, I do, but I would not actually believe that primarily due to Ephesians 111 that is simply a description that Paul gives of God as the all things working according to his will

49:26

God and I look at Isaiah. I look at Jeremiah. I look at the

49:32

Old Testament I look at Daniel 4 and I see this God I I see him

49:37

Acting in exactly that way with the repeated emphasis upon the freedom of God to act and the fact that he can act in such a way as to Frustrate any of the plans of men and so yeah given that he is just announced in verse 10

49:53

That God is summing up all things in Christ and that this is all things

49:58

This is all of creation then there is no reason to go to a different context. Okay now my

50:04

My translator says in verse 10 that he will gather together in one all things in Christ So will all things literally be gathered together in Christ?

50:17

Yes, because of the fact that you need to understand when when Paul presents

50:23

Christ as the centerpiece of all the guys doing the cross becomes the center point of history itself and In Christ all things are reconciled that is the elect

50:34

Because of their union with him so that his death is their death Therefore his righteousness is their righteousness

50:41

They have peace with God solely and completely because of what he has done in their place.

50:47

They are in him and they have life in him and God is glorified in them and in the same way as the judge

50:56

Jesus Christ because he is the God man is able to Demonstrate the justice and the wrath of God in the destruction of his enemies

51:06

You see one of the problems that I have With people who are trying to go one way or the other here is that they they have a hard time

51:15

Explaining how it is that God in creation has demonstrated the entirety of the range of his attributes

51:22

That is they don't seem to catch that echo in Romans 9 where Paul writes that God Was desirous to make his power known now that in that context it was in the destruction of the gods of Israel I'm sorry the gods of Egypt But God's wrath and God's judgment is a part of what

51:43

God desires to reveal That's why when when non Calvinists say well God could just save everybody.

51:49

Well, yes I will gladly confirm that he could however if he did

51:55

That would mean that his wrath and his judgment would not be demonstrated in this creation and could not be seen with the clarity that it is in the way he's chosen to Create and to redeem and by the way

52:09

I would also point out that if God either saved none or saved all in Neither of those scenarios would

52:16

God have any freedom to act it is only in saving some That God has the freedom to demonstrate the full range of his attributes in his creation to his own glory

52:26

And so yes, I think in Ephesians chapter 1 All of this the whole whole thing from the very beginning from eternity past is focused upon what

52:37

God does We don't have time today to walk through every single point of it I've done this in in the Potter's freedom

52:42

But if you read through Ephesians 1 you will see that it is God who is acting at every single point and the direct object of the verbs of his action are the elect not simply as a group but as individuals and so that needs to be that needs to be understood and seen as the context from which we take this and then of Course what

53:04

I mentioned in response to see Gordon Olson was if you're going to talk about top hanta Then you're gonna need to look at the entire range of Paul's use of top hanta

53:13

Even here in in verse 10 you have top hanta being used all things You have it used elsewhere in Ephesians of all of creation.

53:20

You have it in Colossians 1 of all of creation You can't just go well top hanta is used 45 times and this many times this way and therefore based on percentages that it must be this way

53:29

That's why there isn't any English translation to my knowledge that gives the rendering that he gave that's that's a real issue

53:36

But you know James I understand that and that makes sense But in verse 10, it says all things will be gathered in Christ And I thought if anything was in Christ, it was a new creation

53:48

Any any? Okay. Now you're mixing context there You're saying well as if it ever says in Christ Remember, it says

53:55

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Does that mean that does that mean God himself was a new creation?

54:01

Well, no, because we're talking about it's it's pointing towards human beings in creation God wouldn't have to be a creation exactly different context exactly

54:09

And so when you look at the term that is translated here as I think you said

54:15

Gathering up. It's the summing up of all things. It can also be sum up recapitulate gather up unite

54:23

It's talking about the fact that there is going to be nothing that God does in Establishing the eternal state is done outside of Jesus Christ the redemption of the elect the judgment of those against whom is wrath comes

54:36

Everything is done in Jesus Christ and in fact what you need to recognize is ento

54:41

Christo can also be what's what's called a Instrumental use for example when it says

54:47

God was in Christ reconcile the world himself. That's an instrumental use That is by means of Christ.

54:53

It doesn't necessarily mean a Locative concept of being united with him. Okay, one more quick question when it says

54:59

God works all things according to his will do we have to really take that as God causes all things or Just God can like direct all things even though like I mean, you don't think that God causes my wicked thoughts, right?

55:13

I mean, well when you say in my head, okay again when you say caught well, first of all God wouldn't even have to do that.

55:19

What God is doing is he's restraining your wickedness He wouldn't have to be creating it because it's a fallen child of Adam. It's it's restraint issue not a creation

55:28

Understandable when I have I mean, I don't always have thoughts to murder right or rape or whatever.

55:33

I mean by God's grace Yes. Yeah, I mean so I'm not sure how that would work and you know

55:39

And I know this is probably way but because I've heard Calvin to say one thing like people like Vincent Chung and and others and Clarkians basically and saying that God he says that God actually puts in time puts the thoughts in your head

55:53

Well again the the problem that I have here and I can hear the echo of of Steve Gregg's Teaching and you're thinking is he seems to think that if God determines something in his eternal decree that that means that God is the

56:06

One doing it. He keeps saying that God makes all decisions for us. That is that is a gross misrepresentation What is being said?

56:12

No, but that is what he says. Yeah, but no Jim. I'm talking about Vincent Chung.

56:17

Who's a cow? Okay, I'm I'm I realize that of Clark. I realize that and I'm not a

56:24

Clarkian so I and I don't know anything about the the fellow so I can't answer a question about that But what I did was trying to point out is that one of my major problems with Steve Gregg's presentations

56:33

Is that he does he simply denies openly? he simply will not allow for the possibility that you can have an eternal decree and still have a true action in time on the part of a secondary actor that is

56:52

Exactly we have in Genesis 50 that you cannot have the brothers of Joseph who hate him

56:57

God has restrained their evil He has they want to kill him before but in fact, they want to kill him in that situation

57:03

God restrains their evil why because God has a purpose to save many people alive today

57:09

And so it is God's purpose that is being fulfilled in the selling of Joseph in the slavery in Egypt Now it was a sinful thing the lying to their father and the the ripping up of the coat and the animal

57:20

But it was all sinful. There's no question about that They had sinful intentions and they acted on those sinful intentions

57:28

God had absolutely pure and holy intentions in the exact same

57:34

Event in time and it seems to me that what Steve Gregg is saying is that event in time might not have happened

57:41

It might have been that those men chose Yeah I've talked to him about it.

57:47

Yeah, he does. So are you so wait a minute? Wait a minute? Let me let me make sure the audience understands. I'm I was not aware of any conversations you've had with Steve Gregg So if he says that he said he said

57:57

God could have got him to Egypt any number of other ways any number of other ways You're not that now think about that because any other way would still involve the cooperation of their free will

58:10

Yeah, this is the foundation of open theism. That's where open theism Derives its entire power.

58:16

Hey, Jim. Thank you very much. Well, hey, we're gonna find out All right.

58:22

Thanks a lot Sorry, Adam, we'll get to you next time on the dividing line. I am out of town next week

58:29

But I will be back immediately thereafter. And so we will continue with the dividing line.

58:34

I believe that will be Yes, the first day of May will be the next dividing line that we will have and we'll continue probably with the radio free

58:44

Geneva because I didn't get the Romans 9. We'll do that on May 1st. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at P.

59:39

O box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:47

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks