Is It Wrong to Call Women Whores?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is it wrong to call women whores?

01:41

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us to read? Tim – Isaiah 121 says,

01:48

How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her, but now murders.

01:55

There you go. Okay, okay, so obviously the Bible seems to have a category for whore, right?

02:02

Tim – Right. Okay, so, you know, basically a large part of why we wanted to talk about this is because there's been a bit of a, we'll call it a spirited discussion online about a certain tweet that went out from Eric Kahn, where he essentially was accusing,

02:23

I think mostly fathers, but at least, you know, parents in general who send their daughters off to college, you know, to rack up a bunch of debt and, you know, to become what he described as well -used mattresses.

02:43

And I'm sure we can all understand what he's insinuating there. But it seemed to, you know, kick off a little bit of a, he seemed to kick a little bit of a hornet's nest.

02:53

Not necessarily as big a hornet's nest as we kicked a few months ago, you know.

03:00

So, Eric Kahn, he's still got a ways to go in terms of, you know, saying things that are controversial and true at the same time.

03:10

But, you know, he's making progress and we got to pat him on the back for that, you know. That's silly.

03:17

Anyway, so he puts this tweet out and it upsets a lot of people.

03:24

You know, I mean, I saw people like writing poems about how they were well -used mattresses.

03:32

And, you know, like Jesus, you know, he had redeemed them and essentially trying to, you know, discredit what

03:43

Eric Kahn was saying. And, you know, so a lot of people really sharply disagreed with him in terms of his wording, saying that it was unkind, it was unfair.

03:54

It wasn't a helpful way to speak about women in general. And so, you know, thinking about the response to something like that, it really seems like people are kind of put off when you insinuate that any woman is behaving like a whore.

04:15

Is that right, Tim? Yeah, I mean, basically, it seems like this is a word that enrages people.

04:23

So, that's for sure. So, why is that, though? I mean, you know, you just read a

04:29

Bible verse where God was, you know, was calling the Israelite nation, his chosen nation, a whore.

04:37

He was saying that his chosen people were behaving like a whore.

04:42

So, it seems like, you know, if you're familiar with the Old Testament at all, you're going to realize that that's not like an isolated thing.

04:51

Like, that happens over and over again that God compares his people to a whore.

04:59

He compares other nations to behaving like a whore. And so, this is not like a new thing.

05:06

This isn't a one -off type of thing. So, it seems like God has a category for that.

05:12

But then, for some reason, a lot of people in modern times, especially in the

05:18

Christian communities, they get really off -put when you call someone a whore.

05:23

You know, when you use any sort of descriptive language that would force you to, you know, seemingly think the way that God speaks about people who are unfaithful.

05:36

So, why is that the case, Tim? Yeah, I mean, depending on the translation that you look up, this is a word that,

05:44

I mean, can be used over 100 times in the Bible. So, this isn't really… Which is a significant amount.

05:51

Yeah, I think I looked it up in the LSB or something along those lines when I first did it, and I think it was 114 times the term whore was used in general.

06:01

So, that translation was preferred. Looking it up in the ESV right now, there's 76 verses with 91, like, references that are used that all sound the same way.

06:14

So, when you said that God called His people whores, I mean, it was a – you said, you know, there's verses in the

06:23

Old Testament where God called people whores. It was a bit of an understatement because, I mean, this may be one of the most frequent things

06:28

He calls them, okay? I mean, they weren't all that faithful, you know?

06:37

Right, right. So, this is kind of the go -to word that God uses to describe spiritual adultery in the

06:44

Old Testament of His people against Him. And as you're reading through the

06:49

Pentateuch, you'll see that there – Moses at that point, who is, you know, writing for God, is basically saying that – like, he's predicting that people are going to whore after other gods, and that's just the way

07:01

He describes it. So, I mean, you could just read verse after verse after verse that say the same basic things.

07:09

So, you know, Exodus 34, 14, and you take their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods, and make your sons whore after their gods.

07:18

I mean, this is the way that the Old Testament talks. Leviticus 17, 7. So, they shall no more sacrifice their sacrifices to goat demons after whom they whore.

07:28

This shall be my statute forever for them throughout their generations. You can just –

07:34

I mean, the issue is you can read this, and this is just a descriptive adjective of Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness as compared to whoredom in different ways.

07:44

And, you know, God goes into great detail just describing how disgusting this actually is in different ways.

07:53

So, part of what's happening is when you – society has basically remarkably changed their instincts on this issue over the course of my lifetime.

08:05

So, growing up, I mean, there's still social stigma attached to, like, a woman being promiscuous in general.

08:12

So, even more so than a man. Like, if a woman was promiscuous, she would be called a whore. She would be called a slut, you know.

08:19

There would be adjectives that are used like that to describe her character. And that was something that was just, like, very common for me.

08:26

Like, for people – for me to hear, like, growing up, like, people describing women in that way who sleep around.

08:34

And there was just, you know, this understanding that you don't want to really marry a girl who's, like, a slut.

08:39

You don't want to marry a girl who's a whore. And then, like, part of the problem is that right now, if I say those things right now, me even saying those words, these words that are in the

08:48

Bible over and over and over again, like, it feels internally like I blaspheme something, right?

08:55

So, like, it feels like I've said something wrong. It feels like whatever I've done, I've done something fundamentally immoral, like I've uttered a blasphemy.

09:04

And you should think about, like, what that indicates about the society that we live in. Meaning, you could watch

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TV shows right now and movies that constantly take the Lord's name in vain. And that are filled with all kinds of cuss words.

09:21

So the kind of cuss words that we weren't allowed to say growing up. So, you know, all your four -letter words that we weren't allowed to say growing up.

09:29

All those things. Like, right now, people are more – the issue is people are more offended if you say, like, the word whore or slut or something like that.

09:39

If you say those words, they're more offended by that than if you were to take the Lord's name in vain. Or pretend to take the

09:47

Lord's name in vain, you know, by one of the various replacements or something like that that we have. But they respond.

09:52

Like, you say something – like, you just say the word. I'm not even attaching it to any individual. I'm just saying –

09:59

I'm just using the word in order to answer your question about how Christians should think about these things.

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So I haven't even attached it to anyone in particular. I've not, like, talked about anyone in particular. I'm not, like, pointing to a picture of someone and saying whore, whore, whore, whore, whore.

10:13

Or something like that. I'm not talking anything like that. I'm just – I'm trying to – like, there's a word in the

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Bible that was used, you know, in the ESV 76 times. And now that's become so taboo to the point where people treat it as if it's, like, far worse than anything you can think of.

10:35

And that's – so what that tells you is that – this is one of those inescapable concepts.

10:42

Like, what that tells you is that, you know, every society is going to have blasphemy laws. And it's not whether or not you're going to have blasphemy laws.

10:51

It's which blasphemy laws are you going to have. And right now, this is one of the worst words you can say in our society.

10:57

So, things have – over the course of my lifetime, this word has become – like, it's gone from being maybe a little bit impolite, possibly crude, but – slightly crude, but useful, right?

11:11

Like, a useful societal mechanism to identify certain destructive patterns of behavior. It's gone from that to now it's, like, the utter – like, one of the chief blasphemies, you could say.

11:22

And then if you say it, you watch the temperature in the room drop and everyone gets very uncomfortable because they know that a law has been transgressed, you know?

11:31

So, there's a law that's been transgressed in saying the word. But then they're not intuitively thinking to themselves, that's weird that we're so offended by this right now.

11:43

Why are we so offended by this when this is a word in the Bible so much? And what's really interesting is when

11:51

I read that tweet that everyone was, you know, getting all bent out of shape over,

11:58

I remember thinking the way that he worded it.

12:03

Calling women who go off to college and who are, you know, incredibly sexually active, have multiple, you know, sexual partners throughout college, calling them well -used mattresses,

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I thought was a – when I read that part, it made – I felt like I was being encouraged to think about sexual immorality in a way that God would want me to think about sexual immorality.

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Meaning, like, I was grossed out by it. You know, like, I found it gross, you know, thinking about, like, that sort of descriptive word, but then it seemed like everyone else was just getting offended, you know, totally offended by it.

12:52

And a lot of them, you know, a lot of that seemed to come from people who, you know,

12:58

I don't know this for sure because I don't know any of these people, but it sounded like it was coming from people who were that way, you know, whether it was in college or, you know, some former part of their life, but then it sounds like God has, you know, probably delivered them out of those things now.

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But then they're still getting defensive over it, which is strange, you know, because, you know, like,

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I mean, we all have sins in our life that we partook in before we became

13:34

Christians, but, you know, I have – I mean, I have all kinds of sins that I would partake in before I became a

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Christian and, you know, thankfully the Lord's been sanctifying me and, you know, bringing me out of those things.

13:46

But then I don't, you know, I don't know that there's anything that I did before I was a

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Christian that I would hesitate to admit that I did and call, you know, what it is and use like the most degrading terms for it because I don't feel shame over it anymore.

14:09

Do you get what I'm saying? But then it feels like a lot of these people are responding in like a shameful way, like they're still feeling shame over it.

14:20

Does that make sense? So, is that why people are getting so upset about it or is there, you know, is there more to it?

14:27

What's the deal here? Jared There's so much going on. Pete You're like, how much time do we have?

14:35

Jared How long do we want to make this? Do we want to make it a couple hours or what? No, I mean, there's just so much going on in this topic that I don't even know where to start.

14:44

Like I – my brain wants to go in 10 different directions at once because what you're observing is bizarre on the face of it.

14:54

So, it's absolutely bizarre. I mean, it's bizarre in every single way imaginable and there's almost no ability right now to have sane discussions with individuals about this very thing.

15:06

So, this is just a topic that you can't really talk through and a lot of people are emoting.

15:13

And part of what's happened is so many people have been trained to emote about this. So, there's a lot of things that are happening.

15:21

Let me see if I can list a few of the things that are conspiring to produce this bizarre kind of reaction, which should be on the face of it bizarre.

15:30

So, anyone with a biblical worldview should be able to look at the Bible and say, okay, well, if God uses this word 91 times to 114 times, depending on the translation, whether or not you're going to use this phrase whore or prostitute or whatever else,

15:47

God uses this phrase and it's not like a polite phrase, right? So, if God does that and you're living in a society that is just totally unhinged by the use of this, then something has gone amiss, right?

16:03

So, like I'm saying, I think there's a variety of things that have conspired to make this, to create this kind of situation to where so many people are reacting in the wrong way.

16:20

So, part of what's happening is that the standard, I mentioned that there's blasphemy laws now, like thou shalt not, we're triggering, we're flying afoul even having the conversation.

16:31

So, saying whore or something like that now is considered about as bad as saying the n -word or something like that.

16:37

It's about that bad, you know? So, basically, there's a standard there that has something weird has happened.

16:46

And it's weird in both cases that both of those kinds of expressions are far worse things that people can say than taking the

16:54

Lord's name in vain. Like, that's just bizarre, you know? But what's happening here is that slut -shaming, like the idea, so there's this idea of slut -shaming, like you can't slut -shame, basically.

17:08

So, as society has changed, the new rule is that what's described as slut -shaming is like the ultimate evil.

17:17

You can't do that. You can't do that at all. Now, part of, you know, well, why has that happened? Well, a lot of that is because female promiscuity rates are on the rise.

17:27

So, that's obviously true. Yeah. Right now, it's just a foregone conclusion that pretty much almost every girl out there is going to be fornicating before marriage.

17:43

That's just the reality. That's just the stats. That's just what the numbers bear out. So, what's happened is, post -sexual revolution, you're living in a pornographic society.

17:54

Ladies right now are sleeping around. That's just what it is. And with much greater frequency than it has been in our country.

18:04

So, those are just the raw stats. But then, part of what's happened is, with the rise of critical theory, you have anyone who is perceived as a victim class, they can't be shamed.

18:17

They can't be blamed, right? So, what's happening is that men are seen in our society as the ultimate villains because they're the ones who are, like, they're the patriarchy that's hidden behind the scenes that needs to be smashed.

18:30

And so, what's happening is that you have a lot of things that are conspiring to create the situation where in any kind of, you know, fornication, like voluntary fornication that's happening in university campuses or wherever it's happening, you're living in a society right now that views men as villains and women as innocent victims, okay?

18:50

So, then, like, the calculus that happens is that every time two people voluntarily fornicate, it's the man's fault, okay?

18:58

So, it's basically the man's fault, and you can't blame the woman in any way. And then she, like, men are by definition because they're, like, issue.

19:06

You think about these things as it relates to power dynamics that are involved in any kind of encounter, the guy is going to be viewed as the rapist because he's stronger than her, right?

19:14

Yeah, and, like, the, you know, even going so far as, like, hey, a woman can revoke her consent even after, you know, like, it's done and gone, and then they can still, you know, well, now that I've thought about it,

19:30

I never wanted to do that to begin with. Or something like that, or now I don't feel good about it anymore, or you didn't call me the next week, or whatever it is.

19:41

Like, the issue is now at this point, like, and none of that's good. I mean, like, hookup culture is bad, like, and, you know, there's a sense in which it's like, well,

19:50

I play stupid games, get stupid prizes, but it's all nonsense, right? Like, the rules are all nonsense.

19:56

Like, the Bible has rules for what constitutes rape and what constitutes consensual fornication, and they don't involve, like, issues of just determining the gender of the person a priority and making assumptions about power dynamics and everything else.

20:11

So, you think about what's happening is promiscuity is on the rise, okay? And then you're in an egalitarian society that basically demands that you have to view men and women as the same.

20:21

So, you have to view men and women as fundamentally the same in every kind of way, okay? And so then you're trying to hold them to the same standards, and so there used to be, like, you know, a double standard as it relates to it would be worse for a lady to sleep around than for a man.

20:36

And now, like, we're trying to remove that kind of assumption, and basically it's all the same.

20:42

Okay, so it's all the same, and then it's the man's fault, and then, you know, women are going to do it anyways. And then because women are victims, you can't shame them, you can't blame them.

20:50

You have to have their back, right? You have to basically take their side in every way. And so you take all those things together, and what you have is you have a situation where society is basically just shouting at people to say, hey, like, woman is, like, liberated.

21:03

She's a liberated female, right? So she doesn't need a man. She's created independent of man.

21:10

She doesn't need him. She's just okay by herself. Whatever she does, she needs to be encouraged and validated and affirmed, you know, for who she is, right?

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And so basically, because she's a victim, you have to treat her like a victim in every single one of these encounters.

21:27

And so all those things are conspiring to produce this situation where, like, slut -shaming is, like, the worst thing you could possibly do right now.

21:34

Which is really, I mean, it's pretty strange if you think about it. Like, how can you at the same time, and I've wondered this so often, but how can you at the same time be, you know, the greatest victim there is and also empowered and, you know, independent?

21:54

Those feel like two contradictory things to be experiencing at the same exact time.

21:59

Well, I mean, and it's totally bizarre, but then you think about it. Like, that's, like, that's,

22:06

I mean, it doesn't, it's just not meant to make any sense, okay? And that's why you have the mess you're in.

22:11

But then think about it, like, you know, on the opposite side, if a guy, like, sleeps around with a lot of women, there's any number of, like, pejoratives that you could use to describe that guy, okay?

22:25

Like, meaning, like, he's not, like, there's no, like, there's no ceasefire on slut -shaming as it relates to men.

22:34

You see what I'm saying? Right, yeah. Like, none of the rules apply to men. Like, so to a man who's, like, a player or whatever, like, you can say whatever you want to say about him.

22:47

You can call him an abuser. I mean, that's kind of the typical way that you, that people go with the abuse kind of language is that, but, like, he's fair game, but the woman is totally off limits in these kind of encounters.

22:59

And so, now, in order... And just to be clear, I mean, we're not trying to encourage that, you know, we're not trying to say that it's, like,

23:08

God views it as okay or permissible for a guy to be sexually immoral, right?

23:13

You made my qualification for me. Okay, well, you know, yeah. But, you know, it's like, yeah, like,

23:21

I mean, it feels like we shouldn't even have to say that because the Bible is very clear. But then, you know, it sounds like what you're saying is not that, hey, it's okay for the guy to do it, it's not okay for the girl to do it.

23:32

It's just to say that it's not okay for either of them to do it, but it is okay to shame the guy who is doing something wrong, and it's not okay to shame the girl who is doing something wrong.

23:45

And so, like, the issue is the moment you point out those kind of inconsistencies, people think that you're speaking out of some kind of bitterness or you have some kind of chip on your shoulder or you have some...

23:55

But, like, the issue is, like, that's not what's happening. What's happening is that you have to open your eyes and you have to look at what's happening and you say, hey, does this make sense?

24:03

You know, is this logical? Like, is this reasonable? So, when you notice these, like, dramatic shifts in the way that you are allowed to talk to particular genders on these topics, like, when you notice that, you have to say, well, what's going on and is that good or not?

24:20

You know, does that honor the Lord that there's this massive double standard like this? So, what's happening is you're living in a society right now that demands that you praise a woman's independence and her sexual independence and her sexual liberation.

24:37

You have to praise that, and then you basically turn men into the biggest, like, rapists by definition, scoundrels.

24:44

And so, there's just a massive double standard. And I want to say, you know,

24:50

I said that word liberation, but then it's obviously not a liberation in any way whatsoever.

24:55

You're free to be a slave. Yeah, you're free to be a slave to sin. Congratulations.

25:01

How great. Well, I mean, it's the liberation that Satan promised that resulted in the fall, right?

25:07

So, it's that kind of liberation. Hey, you can be free, you know, but literally you know that you're shackled like a slave to your sin.

25:12

So, the issue – so, part of what's going on is that dynamic. There's a dynamic where you can't shame a woman for being promiscuous anymore.

25:23

Okay? But you can with men, like, because he's a rapist and he's a man and, you know, who cares, right?

25:28

You know, he's a villain by definition. Can't with a woman. So, part of it's that. Now, then what's happening, there's another layer that's happening onto that, okay?

25:37

So, what you have is you have like the red -pilled, the manosphere kind of types who are saying, hey, this isn't really good for society, right?

25:51

Like, this isn't good for society and it's like particularly hard on women. So, when women just sleep around, you know, when women become, in the language of Eric mattresses, when that happens, like, it really, it seems to mess with women a lot more than it messes with men.

26:09

And, like, it keeps women from really being able to, you know,

26:17

I'm not wanting to say this, like, in some sort of absolute language, but I mean it really, like, the greater degree to which a woman sleeps around before marriage, the harder it is for her to, like, enjoy intimacy with her husband, the harder it is for her to, like, attach emotionally to her husband.

26:32

Like, these things are real and you're not really allowed to talk about them, but then the red -pilled people are talking about them.

26:39

So, like, you have the red -pilled people who are basically the ones who are out there saying, hey, we need to return to what we lost, in a certain sense.

26:45

Like, we need to start praising virginity again. And one of the things that happened before is, like, we used to shame whores, right?

26:53

So, we shamed women for being whores. And they didn't want to be a whore, so they didn't sleep around with anyone who asked, okay?

27:00

So, like, that shame was, like, a mechanism that kept people afraid, right?

27:06

So, we still have, like, the issue is we still have those mechanisms right now. Like, we have those mechanisms and, like, just think about how you respond to a pedophile.

27:15

So, like, when, like, right now, like, with the person who rapes a child or something like that, it's once a pedophile, always a pedophile.

27:24

You're going to get that scarlet letter your whole life. That's who you are. That's your identity. That's, like, it doesn't matter if you become a

27:30

Christian or not. Like, that's how society is going to view you. That's who you always are going to be.

27:36

You're always going to be viewed with a cloud of distrust and suspicion and everything else. Now, without commenting on, like, whether, fully on whether or not that's, like, a desire, like, that's the way to handle sins of any kind.

27:50

You know, I think there's obviously a category for sexual or some of you in the Bible to where you can be free of these permanent, lifelong scarlet letter kind of things if you legitimately repent and all that.

28:02

But, like, the issue is we have a category for, like, people being so afraid of getting that label on them that it actually prevents them from doing the wicked things in their hearts.

28:12

Okay? Right. So, like, the shame that's attached to that sexual sin is still in the minds of people.

28:20

Like, I'm sure there's been plenty of person who, you know, minor attracted person, what a joke, who didn't act on it because they didn't want to be on a sex offender list the rest of their whole life and didn't want to have that kind of thing coming down upon them.

28:34

Right? And so, in that way, like, the Bible does have a category for shame as a social mechanism that prevent, like, is a curve to immorality in that way.

28:45

So, you know, in the language of the Old Testament, like, with capital punishment laws and everything else, all would hear and fear and never again do such wicked things.

28:54

There's categories for, like, shame in the Bible. There's categories for punishment in the Bible. When Miriam disrespected

29:00

Moses, you know, God shames Miriam. If her father had not spit in her face, wouldn't she have to go outside the camp, you know, for 12 days or whatever it was?

29:13

You know, so, he gave her leprosy and she had to go outside the camp in order to shame her because what she did was fundamentally embarrassing.

29:19

So, we've basically, part of what's happening is we have, like, categories for these kind of things. It used to be attached to whoredom, like, particularly for women, like, because of how destructive it is for women in particular.

29:32

Like, meaning, like, how much it, like, they're not made to give themselves to every man. They are made to attach to men, you know?

29:39

So, and particularly attach to men they give themselves to. And the more they attach to people and attach to people, they lose the ability to keep on doing that as much as they, like, it's going to be a hard road, you know?

29:49

So, like, the issue is we used to shame that. We're not allowed to shame it anymore, okay? And so, now the red pill people, the manosphere people, they're basically saying, hey, you know, that's not good for, like, women to sleep around.

30:03

Like, virginity is good. And then they're coming along saying, yeah, you know, we want women without tattoos who are virgins, who know how to cook and, you know, like, which,

30:14

I mean, it's just largely just sane biblical stuff, you know? Like, that's, like. Yeah, yeah. Homemaker type, yeah.

30:21

I mean, that's largely sane, but then part of the problem is that, right, so here's what's happening. So, you have a clash that's happening.

30:27

So, you have the thou shalt not slut shame women to live impulses that people have.

30:33

You have the red pill kind of guys who, you know, manosphere kind of guys who are saying, hey, no, we need to make, you know, whoredom shameful again, right?

30:43

And I'm largely on board with that project. Like, somehow, like, if you want society to shift, you have to share the gospel and transform the society, for sure.

30:52

But, I mean, how you do that, you know, what's going to happen when the society is transformed is that virginity won't once again be prized and whoredom will be shameful again.

31:02

So, you have to get to a point where it's shameful again. But then what's happening is you have, like, a bunch of Christian women who were formerly promiscuous, and this is a dynamic that you're talking about.

31:13

So, they're formerly promiscuous, and they're responding to the situation in more of an emotional way and less of a logical way, okay?

31:23

So, what's happening is, and it's mostly the ladies who are getting worked up about it, like, they're responding in an emotional way because it's like, hey,

31:30

I was forgiven. I don't want to wear the scarlet letter my whole life. And what the red -pilled guys are doing is they're basically looking at them and saying, hey, once a whore, always a whore.

31:39

You wear the scarlet letter for the rest of your life. What they're doing is they're treating them just like we currently treat pedophiles.

31:45

Does that make sense? Yeah. And then, like, there's a massive overreact, like, there's a massive reaction to say, hey, you know,

31:52

God forgave me of that. Such were some of you. I don't have to be, you know, whoever my name is, the harlot, for the rest of my life.

31:59

God forgave me and restored me and cleaned me up. You know, so, but then, you know, at that point, basically, like, the manosphere is kind of an overreaction the opposite way and to, like, a dramatic, you know, 180 that we've taken as a society.

32:18

And then you don't have anyone who's calm, clear -headed in the middle saying, hey, we have to figure out how to make fornication shameful again.

32:27

So step, like, we have to actually make it shameful again. And what that's going to mean is that, like, we have to get to a point where we view this as a really bad thing, like we do other sexual sins, right?

32:40

Like, and so we have to get to a point where we, like, we do view this as deeply shameful. And then we also have a category for forgiveness, but it's not just, like, a cheap forgiveness.

32:50

Like, hey, you slept with 50 people, and it's like it never happened, man.

32:57

You know, like, I don't... Darrell Bock I guess you're a virgin again. Ryan Clements I guess you're, yeah. I mean, there's, like, there has to be some way for people to, like, wake up and say, hey, it would actually be good for society if we once again turned this into a taboo in order to make everyone afraid, like, to not go down that road, because there's so many problems down that road, too.

33:17

And so there's just... So what's happening is you have people who are overreacting to the manosphere, basically, and throwing the baby out of the bathwater, and then they just sound like a bunch of raving feminists, you know?

33:28

At that point, as it relates to this point, where it's just, like, they're just... And they don't even realize what's happening, like, that they're just being maneuvered into this spot where they're, like, holding up the banner to the thou shalt not slut shame.

33:42

You can't do that under any circumstances, because, you know, like, what you don't want to do is you don't want to put, like, a repentant person in the position to where they may feel the slightest, you know, tinge of shame over their past actions or something like that.

33:58

So basically what you have to do is you have to kind of give women, like, an absolute blank check to sleep around with no consequences, because, you know, as the logic goes, if they may want to come to Christ one day, and then they want to...

34:13

And if they do come to Christ one day, then they can all be wiped clean. And so what you lose is you lose any ability to, like, discourage it on the front end.

34:23

Does that make sense? Because, you know, in the minds...

34:29

They don't have a category for saying, Hey, we have to figure out how to discourage this on the front end and not just, like, clean up the mess afterwards, you know?

34:37

And then there is a big mess afterwards. And so basically you're in this situation where you're basically saying,

34:43

Hey, yeah, you know, go do heroin for years and drink. Because I wouldn't want you to feel bad if you repent one day and come to Christ as if you did anything wrong.

34:54

So I'm basically just going to give you a blank check to do all that, you know? And so, like, there's no mechanism you have basically of saying,

35:01

Hey, this is really bad. Don't do it. And people should be horrified if you do, you know, kind of thing anymore. Right, right.

35:08

Now, I saw a lot of people were also arguing that, Hey, you know, I don't want to, like...

35:18

It seemed like a lot of people were saying, Hey, God wants us to marry whores.

35:26

It seems like they were arguing that. There's a part of my brain that wants to refuse to...

35:32

I must be misunderstanding what they're saying. But they're encouraging people to think about marrying someone who has been with multiple sexual partners as if...

35:47

Kind of like you said earlier, as if they are a virgin. As if they are just as equally desirable as a virgin.

35:55

As someone who's never had a sexual partner before. And in my mind, it seems a lot more like it's objectively...

36:04

I mean, just objectively better. So it's not up to personal preference, you know?

36:12

It's not up to, like, this or that. It's objectively better to marry someone who is a virgin.

36:20

As opposed to someone who has been sexually active for however long.

36:26

However many partners they've had. However high their quote -unquote body count is.

36:33

It's objectively worse to marry the person who has had multiple sexual partners.

36:40

So is that something we see in the Bible? Is that the way that people should think about it?

36:45

Like, hey, it is objectively... You have two women equal in every way.

36:53

Except, which I think you have to... I think that's probably impossible in reality.

37:00

That they're equal in every way simply because of this difference in... One's a virgin versus one has been sexually active.

37:09

But let's just pretend that that can be true. It's still objectively better to pursue the one who remained a virgin.

37:20

Is that right? Yeah. I spend all that time laying all that out, spelling everything out, and then you just give me a yeah.

37:36

So what's happening is you're not allowed to do the move that you make. So you're not allowed to say ceteris paribus, all other things being equal, virgin or not virgin.

37:45

Virgin is better. So what's happening is you're not allowed to do that. And this is where the manosphere and a lot of the

37:55

Christian women in particular online, they're just talking past each other. So men are making those, like most of the manosphere, they're making the kind of qualification that you just made.

38:06

So they're basically saying all other things being equal, like this is obviously more desirable than the other thing.

38:12

That's what they're saying. So then what it's being heard on the other side, particularly from ladies, is that you're damaged goods and you're done, and there's no hope of redemption for you.

38:28

That's who you're always going to be and everything else. I think there has to be some way to regain a sense of the obvious.

38:39

It's the same as any other sin. Any other sin, you have to accept the consequences of your actions here in this world right now.

38:52

So if you're a murderer and you get caught murdering and you get sent to jail for life, and then you become a

39:00

Christian while you're being sent to jail, you should be able to say, hey, God has forgiven me for committing murder, but he has not freed me from the worldly consequences of my own sin, and I'm okay with that.

39:19

Because I understand that ultimately I am forgiven, but I have to pay for what

39:25

I've done here now in this life, and there's consequences to it. And it's like that with any sin.

39:32

Now, every sin might not have the same magnitude of consequences, like committing murder, for example, but it just seems like that should be the normal response for a

39:44

Christian who understands the gravity of what they've done, but then for some reason we don't have that sort of expectation when it comes to someone who's been sexually active outside of marriage.

40:03

Yeah, it's a bizarre thing to think about in general, and part of what's happening is you just have a thoughtlessness, like just an inability to make basic category distinctions.

40:15

And part of what's happening is just men and women are different. So men are often, when they're talking about these kind of topics, they're talking about them in a logical way.

40:24

They're talking about them based on what's logically consistent, and they're thinking about these things more in terms of principle.

40:34

But then ladies, when they're talking about these things, they're primarily talking about them through the lens of emotion at this point, and men and women are different.

40:42

So when they're talking about this kind of topic, it is being filtered through this emotional reaction that they're having, but the reaction is designed to protect the weak and the perceived victim.

40:55

So the whole game on the woman's side of things is they're thinking about this through the lens of sheltering women from harsh truths that are uncomfortable and unpleasant.

41:07

So they're playing the mama bear role, where they're just trying to protect the child from danger. Does that make sense?

41:13

Sure, yeah. The man is basically trying to protect them from danger too, but then the issue is he's trying to protect them through the truth, okay?

41:22

Yeah, he's trying to protect them from the real danger. Right, the real danger. So the Bible talks about, like, faithful are the wounds of a friend and profuse are the kisses of an enemy.

41:31

And what's happening here is that a lot of women will just lie to each other in order to shield them from these harsh realities or whatever.

41:40

And it's just– I saw one of those internet things that scrolled on Twitter where the guys were– you had the girls who were raiding the guys– girls who were raiding each other and then the guys who were raiding the girls or whatever.

41:55

And you had, like, the over– like, all the girls, they raided the most overweight girl, the most attractive, okay?

42:04

Girl, you're a 10. Don't let nobody tell you you're not a 10. You're a 10.

42:10

They all had to raid each other, right? So the girls, like, they all raided the overweight one, the most attractive.

42:16

So they got in a line or whatever from least attractive. They put her up there in order to shelter her from the truth.

42:21

But then when the guys raided them afterwards, she went to the back of the line. That's the way it worked.

42:28

Now, I mean, it's just one of those things where it's just like, I don't know what– like, you can lie to women, but you're not helping them.

42:35

So if you tell them to sleep around, there's no consequences to that. They're going to make an equal marriage partner with everyone else.

42:41

All you're doing is lying to them. And so you may get all the women around you to say it, but that isn't– like, if you want to get married one day, then they're not really the ones you have to convince.

42:51

You know, it's so– I mean, like, you know, guys– you can be mad at the way guys think all day long, but they just think the way they think.

43:03

But you think about this on any other axis. I mean, like, think– so you have, you know, ceteris paribus, all other things being equal.

43:11

You have two godly Christian men. One has, like, a job that makes $30 ,000 a year.

43:17

The other one has a job that makes $100 ,000 a year. Who's the better marriage partner? Well, obviously the $30 ,000.

43:25

All right, so, but then that's– you would only say– a person only would say that if you're trying to protect, you know, the poor guy who didn't maybe make the best decisions from feeling bad.

43:39

Yeah, he went to college instead of becoming a welder or a plumber or something. Yeah, that's true, too.

43:46

But, I mean, that's still– But you see what I'm saying? Like, all other things being equal, who's the better marriage partner? Obviously the guy who makes more.

43:53

Why? Well, because, you know, man has this job to provide for a household, and he's obviously going to do a better job than the other guy.

44:01

And so all other things being equal, that's the desirable trait. But you can do this on any axis, right?

44:08

So whether you're talking about moral– or, you know, non -moral kind of issues, like, this is just the way it works.

44:13

Now, but then, when you think about, like, how these things actually work in the Bible, I mean, God set up the whole sexual ethic in the

44:19

Old Covenant based on the reality of trying to, at all costs, guard people's virginity.

44:26

Like, that's the whole thing, man. Right. Like, I mean, that's the whole thing. And that's where, you know, as you read the

44:31

Bible, you run across some very uncomfortable laws for today.

44:36

I mean, like, you know, if we've already stepped on, you know, a lot of anthills or whatever, I mean, just imagine the kind of things that are actually in the

44:44

Bible as it relates to this topic. So, like, meaning, like, if a woman, like, gets married to a man, right, and the man doesn't find evidence of virginity, meaning she had slept around, they were told to stone her to death with stones.

45:02

Like, kill her, right? If a guy, under the Old Covenant, if a guy were to sleep with a girl, they were told to get married, right?

45:11

Yeah. Like, if a guy were to, like, actually rape a girl in the Old Covenant, they're told, like, he has to marry her, right?

45:21

The father can refuse it, but he has to marry her, essentially, and pay for her, and he's not allowed to divorce her his whole life in that way.

45:30

So, like, that's in the Bible, like, and you're not allowed to talk about it, but that served the function, essentially.

45:37

Like, those kind of passages, they serve the function of basically saying, hey, you can't just sleep around, okay?

45:43

So, once you sleep with a girl, like, something spiritual is happening, there's a joining there that happens, you need to recognize what happens in a legal way.

45:52

Like, that's the way the Old Covenant is set up. So, like, a woman sleeping around, like, and not letting anyone know, and she's betrothed to a man, she gets killed, right?

46:01

Like, the whole Old Testament economy is basically set up to guard this issue of virginity in that way in some very strict ways.

46:11

And so, it was obviously, you know, important to God, and he says that sexual sin is, like, a unique kind of sin, you know, that's unlike all other sins, and it would obviously be better for society if everyone would get married having only slept with one person.

46:26

That would obviously be the best thing for a society. There would be far less wounds and dishonor, there would be far less guilt and shame and condemnation, you know, there would be far less out -of -wedlock pregnancies, there would be far less abortions.

46:41

I mean, can you imagine, like, if we'd somehow figure it out as a society to make it normal that everyone would marry a virgin, right?

46:51

So, but then the only, like, the thing that stands in opposition against that is this idea that, well, you can't shame people if they don't make that choice anymore, right?

47:02

Right, yeah. That's untouchable. That's the thing that's standing in the way of, like, getting to a society where your kids could grow up and basically have options to marry people who save themselves for marriage is because we basically just said, hey, it's unrealistic, it's not going to happen anymore, we're just too far.

47:19

The rot's too far gone, you know, there's nothing we can do about it, so now what we need to do is, like, forget playing, you know, forget playing defense anymore and just be ready to comfort people after they do what they're going to do, right?

47:34

Right, yeah. So, it's just a mess, you know. There just has to be some way to bring, like, restore some sense of shame to couples who are doing shameless things, individuals who are doing shameless things.

47:49

There has to be some way to restore a sense of shame and guilt to it, but it's not going to be found by just, like, pretending as if, yeah, you know, the girl who slept with 50 people is just as good of a marriage partner as the one who didn't sleep with anyone, you know?

48:05

It's like, well, that isn't really the way it works here. That doesn't feel like it's the same.

48:12

No, I mean, obviously, like, if you had to pick between a pagan who's a virgin and a woman who slept with 50 people who was a

48:22

Christian, I mean, obviously, yeah, you go with the Christian at that point. Right. Yeah, so it's not like the end -all be -all criteria.

48:31

But, I mean, you can't pretend as if God didn't treat it with the utmost seriousness in the

48:39

Old Testament and in the New. So, if you do that, you're just kind of ignoring, basically, the whole sexual ethic of the

48:47

Bible. Now, my last question, quickly, and it's one that we've covered before, but I wanted to ask it again just because it kind of feels like one of those questions that we're just going to have to answer over and over and over and over again for years and years and years, you know, before people start coming around to a better understanding of the

49:08

Bible. But, you know, you have examples like, I think, Hosea, the prophet

49:13

Hosea, where God tells him, commands him to go marry a prostitute, you know, someone who would be defined as a whore.

49:24

So, that is obvious proof that, you know, this whole conversation that we've just had has been a waste of time, and we're totally wrong, right,

49:33

Tim? Tim Jones That's the provisionalist perspective. I don't know if that's, like, the Leighton Flowers fan account or something like that, but what that is, but they were making that argument, essentially, that, hey, you need to go reread, you know,

49:48

Hosea, or God tells Hosea to marry a whore. And it's like, yeah, I mean, come on.

49:53

You have to actually read the story, man. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, you got to read the story.

49:58

Like, this wasn't, like, a go -do -like -wise. This was an object lesson, right?

50:08

So, he gets the prophet to do this shameful thing, to marry this whore, to show them, like, what it's like for him to be married to them, right?

50:18

And it wasn't like a, oh, well, I love you so much, or like, this wasn't like a plan.

50:24

Hey, you know, Israel, I want you to be like me and go marry someone in the midst of their whoredom or something like that.

50:30

Like, you need to go find the, you know, biggest prostitute you can find and go.

50:35

If you want to honor me, you better. In fact, it would honor me more. Oh, my gosh.

50:41

No, I mean, that is not the point at all. Like, that was, like, that's just totally not the point.

50:47

The point was just to say, hey, I'm going to get this prophet to do this shameful thing to be an object lesson to the people so they can see, you know, what they're like, you know?

50:57

And what they're like is a woman who, he marries the prostitute and, you know, has kids with her.

51:02

He tries to turn her into a housewife or whatever, and she leaves him and he goes back to her. He tries to fix her, man.

51:09

But that's not, you know, so, you know, the Bible does say, marry whom you will, only marry unto the Lord.

51:14

And certainly, like, whatever Hosea is doing, it's not a command for Christians to marry, you know, women who are defined by gross immorality in the hopes of trying to clean them up or something like that.

51:25

But, yeah, no, I mean, just to bring it around full circle, this is one of those topics where... Petey Wait, wait, real quick.

51:32

Is he the same prophet that was commanded to cook his own feces? Jared I don't think that was Hosea. I can't remember who that was, but...

51:40

Petey Should we be obeying that one? Was that another go and do likewise? Jared Go and do, yeah. Go and do likewise, but...

51:48

Petey Imitate Hosea as he imitates God. Petey Oh, no. Oh, okay.

51:54

Anyway, moving on. Bring us back, bring us back. Jared Yeah, the issue is, you know, with what's happening is right now, there's this absolute rule that the left has, you know, forced upon Christians here to where it's viewed as more shameful to call a woman like what she actually is, right?

52:20

Like in that way, like to accurately describe her behavior than to like for her to actually engage in that behavior.

52:26

And that tells you that something's wrong, right? Petey Yeah. Jared So like if it's more shameful to accurately describe the behavior, like the use mattress kind of thing, right?

52:36

If it's more, like it's more shameful to accurately describe it than to actually engage in it. And that tells you that our sense of right and wrong is just fundamentally skewed at this point.

52:47

And so... Petey Yeah, absolutely. Jared Like we need to get to, we need to get to a point again where it's deeply embarrassing and shameful to engage in that behavior.

52:58

And you know, that's not an enemy of like repentance. Like the issue is that, you know, what

53:04

Satan's plan is, is to keep people from ever experiencing guilt and shame and condemnation at all.

53:11

And when you do that, you are preventing them from, like you're basically teaching them to suppress the conviction of the

53:17

Holy Spirit. That's what you're doing. So you're basically just teaching them to harden their conscience, to sear their conscience and not be sensitive to conviction anymore.

53:27

And when you do that, I mean, there's no, there's no need, like those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick, I didn't come to call them righteous, but sinners to repentance.

53:34

Like we need to bring guilt and shame back. Like that's what we need to bring. Now, not in the manosphere kind of way, like we're not, not to where it's just like, hey, permanent shame and condemnation forever, you're used, you know, damage goes, whatever, like forever.

53:46

And there needs to be a, there needs to be some way to say, hey, you're engaging in things that are destructive and deeply shameful, and you need to repent of that.

53:57

And they're wrong. And then at the same time, hey, when you do repent, like we're going to, we're going to rejoice just like the angels in heaven are going to rejoice.

54:05

But at the same time, you know, just as like there has to be some way of saying like the obvious, like just as like if you have a homosexual who repents of his sins and believes the good news comes to Christ, after having 200, you know, partners, gay partners or something like that, yeah, it may be that, you know, most of the

54:27

Christian women who didn't do anything like that, they may be a little wary of you and a little bit cautious around you and want to see a long track record of repentance.

54:38

And like, so if you think about that only as it relates to the individual, like the responsibility to that individual, you might think, well,

54:46

I guess we need to just not make that a factor in anything that we're thinking about at all, unless we create some kind of two -tiered system in the church or something like that.

54:55

But then if you're thinking about it at a broader level, you know, as it relates to the health of society, yeah, you know what?

55:02

It would be better if we could all just start to make these things shameful again so that people would be too afraid to do them.

55:08

Okay? So they'd be too afraid to do them. And then like the issue is, you know, like people, you know, the messier your past is, you're going to look for someone who also has an equally messy path and God connects those two people together, cleans them up together and everything else.

55:22

That's generally the way it works, but then it would obviously be better for society, for individuals not to just say, hey, let me go out and find the person who's sinned the most in the most reprehensible and heinous ways in order to be an example of the gospel.

55:36

I mean, like what you, like you don't, I joked around with that with them. Like general, you just have to restore some sense of sanity.

55:46

I mean, it's like, hey boys, let's go to the, you know, the brothel and go find some wives that we're going to try to evangelize here or something.

55:53

I mean, that isn't the plan here, you know? So there has to be some way to say, hey, yes,

56:00

God can forgive you. Yes, God can cleanse you. Yeah, you don't have to wear that badge of shame forever. Yeah, he can take your guilt.

56:06

He can cast in the sea and, you know, remember it no more. And at the same time, it's like, yeah, you know what? Like if you go on a murder spree, you may cut off some of your marriage prospects and for good reason, you know?

56:17

It's like, yeah, I probably wouldn't encourage my daughter to, you know, marry the first convicted con, you know, ex -felon that she can, because he, you know, he seems nice or whatever.

56:31

Like, it's like, well, honey, we need to exercise a lot more caution with this one and watch this for a lot longer time and make sure that this is legit, you know?

56:40

And so, I mean, that's just part of life and that's just the way life works is that, hey, when you engage in scandalous sin, there may be a long road that it takes to help everyone to see that this is legit and this, you know, that you're a fundamentally different transformed person to the degree of heinousness that your sin has and that's just part of it, you know?

57:00

So I just think people have to quit thinking about these things so emotionally and start thinking about them more clearly for sure.

57:07

Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on. So, thank you,

57:13

Tim, for walking us through that and answering a bunch of my questions. Hopefully, the conversation was something that can provide a lot more clarity on the situation and to, like,

57:24

I think you said a lot earlier in the episode, serve as sort of the sane person in the middle who's not going so far to say, like, hey, you know, once a whore, always a whore, there's no room for forgiveness, this is the unforgivable sin, you know,

57:41

Christ's blood cannot cover this, you know, this can't, you know, there's no life, there's no eternal life for this person after they've committed this kind of sin and, you know, not, but then also not being on the other side that's saying, like, hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with behaving this way and you are just as desirable as the person who has zero sexual partners and any man who tells you otherwise is just a, you know, a bigot or a, you know,

58:12

I mean, I don't even know what, I don't even know what they name call, I guess like a, yeah, a manosphere type guy or something, but our hope is that this conversation can be the reasonable middle ground that's saying, hey, maybe we just trust what

58:29

God has said, you know, and recognize that there is forgiveness while also recognizing that there are worldly consequences to sin and they can last even as long as a whole lifetime, you know, and that's just the reality of sin.

58:45

Sin is ugly, sin kills, sin destroys things and, you know, we all have to deal with the consequences of our own sin.

58:53

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59:07

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59:30

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59:46

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59:58

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