June 26, 2015 ISI Radio Show Tribute to Apologist Walter Martin with Daughter Cindee Martin Morgan

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of June 2015 and in the words of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, today is a day that will live in infamy as most of you probably already know, listening to radio and watching

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TV or reading newspapers, etc. Today the Supreme Court of the

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United States declared a constitutional right to same -sex marriage by judicial fiat on this day of Friday, June 26, 2015, and the tragic irony to this is that the vast majority of people who will be most hurt by this are homosexuals themselves, who will be further bringing judgment upon themselves and not only bringing life -threatening physical ramifications into their lives, but mental, emotional, and most of all spiritual.

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But it is also quite providential that on this day, June 26, today we are celebrating or commemorating the 26th anniversary of the death of a beloved countercult apologist,

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Walter Martin. Walter Martin went home to Christ for eternity on this very date 26 years ago, which is another providential thing.

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June 26 is the 26th anniversary of Dr. Walter Martin's passing into glory and to pay tribute to this great hero of the faith, we have today his daughter,

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Cindy Martin Morgan, and she is going to be paying tribute to her dad and she is also going to be discussing her own ministry run by her and her husband

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Rick. Walter Martin Jude III is the name of that ministry, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,

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Cindy Martin Morgan. Can you hear us, Cindy? Yes, I hear,

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Chris. Oh, I'm sorry. Hi. You got me a little worried there. No, I hear.

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And your dad was quite a young man when he left this earth and entered glory.

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Yes. He was only 61 years old. He actually hadn't turned 61. He was going to turn 61 that year.

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He was actually still 60. Yeah, and it is amazing to me and actually it's kind of frightening to me that that was 26 years ago because I can remember it vividly because ironically or providentially, as we just heard me announce that the

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Supreme Court has declared a constitutional right to same -sex marriage this day on the 26th of June was the day after Walter Martin had debated liberal apostate

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Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong on homosexuality and the very next day,

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June 26th, the Lord called him home to glory. That is quite remarkable, isn't it? Yeah. His last full day on earth was spent defending the faith just as he was meant to do, that God designed him to do so well and that on that day, the very next day after the debate, the

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Lord would call him home. But tell us something about your earliest childhood memories of your dad and he seems to strike me as having had a sense of humor and so on.

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Tell us something about your dad. Well, as a little girl, I have a lot of memories of my dad teaching me to pray and praying with me.

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One of the things he used to always ask me to pray was, you know, for God to bless your eye and all its efforts.

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So that was always a part of the prayers in our house. And my father always taught us through his own life how real

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God is and I remember that from even being as small as I was, he took us to the

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CRI location and he showed us the research department and he talked about, you know, what

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Jesus was doing in the live people that he was trying to reach for Christ and explained to us what that ministry all involved in.

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Kind of included us really early on about what God was doing and he had such a excitement about it and it was just, it was contagious and it really, it really blessed my life as I look back to really see him, his faithfulness and the fact that this wasn't just, you know, this wasn't religion.

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This was a relationship with Christ and he would always be excited about what

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God was doing even in his own personal life and he would discuss those things and it just, he made

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Christ real to me and I will be forever grateful for that influence.

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So that's my earliest, I think, memory of just the prayer together and seeing God at work in his life and in the lives of others through the ministry of CRI.

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So that was such a blessing. He was, he prayed with me even as I grew and into my teen years and I was 28 when he died and even up to that time and day we still prayed together and that was very precious to me.

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It was, if something was wrong, let's talk to the Lord and one thing that my dad and I did together quite a bit was we would take walks and we would talk about Jesus and we would talk about theology and we would talk about our hurts and our difficulties.

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My dad was very transparent. He would really share his heart and we would pray together and that was just so immensely precious to me and one thing he had taught me early on too, in my 20s, he encouraged me to write down my prayer requests and the answers that God gave and keep a journal, you know, to encourage and remind me that God is faithful and to just have a record that I could quickly access to lift me up in those times where we all have, you know, we all have those days where we just say,

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God, where are you? And I really felt like that was one of the best pieces of advice he gave me was to keep track of God and remember that he has a perfect track record and we can depend on him always.

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And I'm going to let our listeners know my email address in the event that anybody would like to ask a question for Cindy Martin Morgan about her dad,

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Walter Martin, on the air. This is a live broadcast, so send your email right away or as soon as you can think of a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. And some of the acronyms that you spoke of, people unfamiliar with the

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Christian Research Institute may not be aware of the well -known acronym

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AMONGST LISTENERS, to that broadcast CRI, which is currently and for quite a number of years has been hosted by Hank Hanegraaff and in the 90s,

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I believe there were some other folks that co -hosted with Hank. But this was a ministry that was actually founded by your father.

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People may be totally unaware of that, especially those who have just discovered within the last decade or so or the last 20 years,

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Hank Hanegraaff's headship of the ministry. Your dad, when did he found that Christian Research Institute?

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My dad did found the ministry and about a year before he died, he was really setting in place

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Hank at that ministry. He had known Hank for quite a while, I think it was about five years, and wanted

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Hank to lead CRI into the future. My dad loved him very much and had great confidence in him.

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Knowing Hank like I do, I feel that confidence is very well -placed and we're just so proud of what

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God is doing there in this ministry still to this day, now in place over 50 years.

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God is good. Yeah, and one of the things that your dad was most well -known for, especially with me and people who, like myself, became

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Christians in the mid to late 80s, was his frequent debates on the

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John Ankerberg Show. That is really, I believe, what

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God initially used in my own heart and mind, was your father's debates on the

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John Ankerberg Show were the things that the Lord used to really ignite a love for apologetics.

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Praise God. And I always thought that he was utterly fascinating, and I brought up earlier when

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I introduced you that he struck me as having a sense of humor. He didn't really let that fully loose on the show, but I could sense at times, a classic example of that, not that necessarily hell is something to be joking about, but it was something that I couldn't help but find hilarious, and so did the audience, for that matter.

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When he was debating Father Mitchell Pacwa, and Father Pacwa had stated,

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I myself believe that there will be popes in hell, and your dad stood up and shouted, he said it, he said it!

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But did he have a sense of humor? He had such a great sense of humor, in fact, one of the stories that he shared with us was he was running late to do the

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Bible Answer Man one day, and he was racing in there, and he went down the hall, and he jumped in the chair, and the chair broke right when he hit it, and he said, this is

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Walter Martin, you're on the air, and here he was with his feet straight up in the air, and he did the first half of the broadcast like that, with his feet straight up in the air, and he didn't miss a beat.

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He was so funny, he was very self -deprecating, he just had that kind of humor, and he was a lot of fun, and I just,

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I loved that side of him. And we already do have a couple of questions.

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We have, from our listeners who have emailed us questions, we have first,

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Mike in Fort Myers, Florida, he says, Greetings, Cindy, I know that your father didn't hold to all of the reformed tenets of faith, meaning, or should

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I say, nicknamed Calvinism, sovereign grace, and he says, namely, limited atonement, and even though he was mentored under the steely tutelage of the late

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Bible expositor, Dr. Barnhouse, what was it, at best that you can recall, why your father didn't accept the doctrine of limited atonement?

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I don't know if you're specifically aware of why he rejected that, but this is an interesting fact that I didn't even reveal yet to our listeners, is that you,

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Cindy, and your husband Rick are theologically reformed, are you not?

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Yes, we are. And that was something that you and your dad had friendly and loving debates over around the dinner table and so on, isn't it?

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Yes, we did. I don't think we did it around the dinner table as much, because... Yeah, that might be a dangerous place to do it.

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I didn't want to have dinner with him. No, he was actually very gracious, actually, and those were things we talked about on our walks more, and when things were quieter, you know, it quieted around us, and he, you know, he called himself a cow minion, and I don't know if he thought of that term himself, but, you know, you had mentioned to me, you know, you thought maybe he had coined that term.

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I'm not certain that he coined it, but I know he went by it. He believed that some things were predestined, but not all things.

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He just, he had been raised really strongly in the free will position. He raised me in the free will position.

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It wasn't until, actually, that I got married to my husband Rick, and we had so many debates about it, and God really touched my heart through the

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Tabletalk magazine, I suppose, Tabletalk, really had a strong impact on me, certain

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Scripture verses, so between Tabletalk and my husband and Scripture, I really felt convinced of God's sovereignty, and my father and I, we did go back and forth about it.

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I think to answer the listener's question, I think that free will, like I was mentioning before,

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I think that my father just could not get away from that opinion that God would somehow not be just if there wasn't the free will element involved in what he did.

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I tried to give him good ideas and good comeback to his concerns and all of that, and like I said, he was very respectful, believed some things were predestined, but he just could not get away from that position.

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He, however, respected the Reformers, and like you were saying, yes, Donald Gray Barnhouse was his mentor, and they used to have talks about it a lot, and he couldn't persuade my dad either, apparently, but my dad couldn't persuade him either.

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But he's in heaven now, and he knows the truth. Well, I'm glad you said it.

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He'd laugh to hear me say that. In fact, I just imitated your dad unknowingly there, or unconsciously.

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She said it, she said it. But I have another listener,

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CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, wants to know what denomination was your dad a member of, if any, and did that change throughout his life after you were born and so on, and watched him theologically grow and develop?

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I think he referred to himself as Southern Baptist, and I don't think that that ever changed. I know that the influence in his life early on in school, he went to Catholic schools, and so I know he had a lot of influence of Catholicism there, but he, of course, left the

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Catholic Church and became a Southern Baptist, and that never did change. Now, was he from originally

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Long Island, New York? Yes. Oh, whereabouts in Long Island, because I'm a native

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Long Islander myself. I was born... Actually, Southampton. Okay. Yes. Yeah, I was born and raised in Amityville, and lived in Long Island until two years ago when

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I relocated here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Your dad had a passion for the truth, and had a great knowledge of those that were enemies of the gospel and enemies of the biblical

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Christ and the scriptures, which is obviously revealed clearly in the fact that he is the author of the

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Kingdom of the Cults. Yes. That's another one of the hallmarks of the life of your dad, people who may not have noticed the name on the cover of the

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Kingdom of the Cults, but that is a book that every single Christian library should include in every pastor's study.

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The thing that always struck me, especially on the Ankerberg program, is that although he tenaciously defended truth in exposed error, he did not demonstrate a hateful spirit or a bigoted attitude, did he?

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No, he did not. He really spoke the truth in love. He really loved people tremendously and wanted them to come to the truth of the gospel.

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In fact, I know firsthand, having met on several occasions Father Mitchell Pacwa, the

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Jesuit priest whom he debated, that they had become very, very close friends, even though that they had debated a number of times on the

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Ankerberg program. I'm sure that if he knew

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I was interviewing you today, he'd extend his greetings to you. You and your husband,

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Rick, have founded a ministry of your own called Walter Martin Jude 3, and the website for our listeners is

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WalterMartinJude3 .com. I just want to make sure that time doesn't run away before I realize it, before you have something to say about this ministry, before we return to a discussion on your dad.

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Why is it that you founded this ministry? It's obviously in part a tribute to your father, and why specifically

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Jude 3 as a part of the title of the ministry? We founded Walter Martin Jude 3, of course, yes, as a tribute to my father and to support publicly the ministry of the

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Christian Research Institute. And what we do is we share as many resources as possible for the body of Christ that CRI makes available, just as an extra support to this ministry, and we also share resources that bless the body of Christ no matter where they come from.

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It's a glorify God. Another thing that we do is I do write pro -life music, and we have tried to put our pro -life music out there to be a message to the body of Christ and to turn hearts towards the truth of life, and so that's another area that we have gone into for quite some time.

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And I've also written a new book that I am, it's a pro -life book for young adults, and it's to teach them why life matters to God.

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And it's actually a fantasy fiction type of book about a young girl who learns of her mom's abortion and travels back in time to try to prevent it.

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And the hope, like I said in the prayer, is that God would use it to teach

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His Word and put it into the hearts of kids before they reach the age where they have that kind of decision to make, and to influence them, hopefully, the

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Lord would use it to influence them to protect the life of their unborn child.

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And the website, I'm sure, will give our listeners an idea of how to get a hold of your music and your book,

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WalterMartinJude3 .com? Right, and the book is not yet out, but it will be out for a long time.

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And specifically the impact of Jude 3? That is because, of course, it's the scripture that my father always used to say often, and in fact, this was on his license plate.

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Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints,

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Jude 3. And so that would be why we chose that. In fact, if you go to the website, he actually says it.

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You know, when you come onto the site, you hear his voice say it. Before we go to a break, we have another listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

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Ted, who wants to know if you believe, if your dad were alive today, if you believe that your dad would be pleased with the development and progress of the

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Christian Research Institute and with the current host of the broadcast. Yes, I believe he would be extremely pleased.

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As I said, Hank was a close friend of my father's, and my father really interacted with Hank for a long time before his death and before bringing him to CRI.

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And it was really providential that God did all that. My father said, you know, he did not feel that he would necessarily be here very long.

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When he told me, he was sad that the last time I was with him, he told me he was sad that he would not be around to see his grandchildren grow up.

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And he had also told me, too, that he was in search of someone to lead CRI and to take it to places where he knew he wouldn't have time to.

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And so I really feel like God answered my father's prayers. He specifically told me that God had chosen a person that he was talking with.

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And I didn't hear the name of that person until some time later, but learned of the fact that it was

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Hank. And is Hank, and yes, I think he would be extraordinarily pleased that CRI is everything that he had envisioned.

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Well, that's good to know. And we're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, we are taking questions by email.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions. And if you write, please include your first name, your city and state.

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And if you're not in the USA, please include your country as well. We'll be right back with Cindy Martin Morgan and a tribute to her father,

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Walter Martin, on this 26th anniversary of his homegoing to Jesus Christ for eternity.

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We'll be right back. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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That's wrbc .us. You speak of free choice, but don't give me a voice.

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I'm so vulnerable here inside you. I am growing each day in a more reckless way.

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Please don't throw my life away. Please don't throw my life away.

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For I am fearfully and wonderfully made, knit together inside of your womb.

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God knew me before my body was formed.

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He loved me before time was born. He loved me before time was born.

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They say that I am not really a child.

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In your heart you know that just isn't true. Don't believe in this lie.

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If you do, I will die. For my life will be ended by you.

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Beats next to yours. Getting stronger. That's Fearfully and Wonderfully Made, one of the songs written and produced by our guest,

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Cindy Martin Morgan, who is on our program today, on the very day of the 26th anniversary of her father,

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Walter Martin, the world -renowned Christian apologist and counter -cult debater who went home to glory with Christ in eternity on this very day,

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June 26th. Tell us something about the song that we just heard and the child who was singing it.

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Well, I wrote Fearfully and Wonderfully Made quite some time ago. It was when my daughter, who is now 30, was 7 years old, and it is sung by her,

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Sharon Morgan. Early is her name now. And yes, that song was sung by her and her sisters are in the background choir there, and also some church children were involved.

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And it just was a precious song that I believe that God put on my heart to help be a voice for those who can't speak for themselves.

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Amen, and this is not really an issue that Christians can ignore or avoid or have this become a subject to a matter of opinion.

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All Christians, if they are truly faithful to Christ, must really abhor this evil and call it for what it is, murder.

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Wouldn't you agree? Yes, I do agree. And I'm sure that your dad was an avid pro -life advocate himself, was he not?

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Yes, he was. And in saying it, I definitely agree in what you just said and just want to also say that there is forgiveness at the foot of the cross for those who have gone down that road, and there is healing for those people.

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And God's love and God's mercy can cover them if they would come to him and seek his forgiveness and seek his healing.

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And we pray for them as well. Amen. So going back to the

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Kingdom of the Cults, the classic work that your dad is probably most well -known for, how did he compile such an enormous archive of knowledge about all these different cults that have plagued the globe for quite a long time?

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Oh, very carefully. You know, he did all of that with that book when

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I was small. And what I was told later was just lots and lots of research and my mother did lots and lots of typing for him.

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And yeah, God just put that passion on his heart and he pursued it and the book was the result of it.

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And then he later wrote the book The Kingdom of the

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Occult, correct? No, actually not. Oh, I'm sorry, I misspoke.

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No, no, actually not. That was written later.

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Oh, was that by Ravi Zacharias perhaps? No, I don't think so.

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But my sister actually participated in that book. Oh, okay.

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I think just through her gathering of notes and things from the past and researching of the issue herself.

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So it's not actually written by my father, but of course we pray that God will use it for his glory.

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Oh, amen. Yeah, sorry for the misspeaking there. No, no, that's okay. And one of the things that being the daughter of such a profound thinker, what was the thing that he really most etched in your heart and mind while growing up in regard to interacting with people who disagreed with you and your belief system and so on, and people who were not

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Christians, et cetera? Mercy. Mercy and patience and forbearance.

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Respect, you know, to show respect and kindness whether you didn't agree with what he or what we thought should be true.

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He really wanted to encourage unity with people. In fact, the end times issues were kind of near and dear to his heart, and, you know, one of his close friends was

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Hal Lindsey. And Hal Lindsey, of course, had kind of a polar opposite opinion of my father's.

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And they would joke about it and agree to disagree agreeably.

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And that really touched my heart because that was such an example of loving each other and giving, as my father used to say, give your brother a break and love him for Jesus' sake.

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And that's what he did. And one of the things my father said was the principal task of the church is to evangelize the world, and they could care less.

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He felt like it was a peripheral issue, and he just felt like it was something that was a matter of conscience.

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And he and Chuck Smith used to joke about it, too. And so that was fun as well.

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So that was a good example, I think, to the body of Christ that we should, like my father said, give one another a break.

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Now, was it mainly in areas of eschatology that your dad disagreed with Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith, or were there other issues that were more dominant in their disagreement?

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Well, the one that was always discussed around me, anyhow, was just the rapture.

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You know, my father believed that we would live through a tribulation period. So that was basically what he focused on.

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He was post -trib. So really, other than that, he never really discussed a lot with me, anyhow.

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You know, he went into anything else too much about their disagreement there, except for that was the main point that they really parted paths.

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But as I said, they loved each other, and the Lord is brothers in Christ, and Chuck Smith, too.

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And my father was mistreated a lot by some Christians on this issue. In fact, one time when he was preaching, he was going to preach, the pastor approached him ahead of time and he said,

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You open your mouth about what you think about end -times theology, and I'm pulling, I'm cutting your mic, and the service is over.

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So he really gave my dad a lot to think about and talk about later. To encourage, to discourage this kind of treatment of each other.

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So my dad was pretty tender -hearted and just wanted the Body of Christ to love one another and to recognize that, you know, the

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Great Commission, go ye therefore into all the earth, you know. And our calling is to win souls to Jesus Christ, and that's what

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I think it should be. Not all of us getting caught up in, I can't wait to get out of here. Right.

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He wanted to have people engage and realize that they were in a spiritual battle.

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He tried to set fire under people to run the race with endurance that God has set before us.

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And I've got to admit, I'm pretty shocked to hear that people mistreated your father.

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Christians mistreating other Christians, that's unheard of, isn't it? Isn't it? That doesn't really exist, does it?

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This kind of is a follow -up question to the fact that you revealed that your dad and you and your husband disagreed on the doctrines of sovereign grace, nicknamed

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Calvinism, a reformed theology. He did not view this as a heresy of any kind, did he?

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Absolutely not. In fact, he adamantly opposed that thinking. If you listen, Rick and I have a

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Walter Martin Jude 3 Facebook page, and that's where we're probably the most active with all of our ministry.

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And, of course, my Cindy Martin Morgan Facebook page as well. I just recently posted, too, and you can see this on YouTube, too,

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The Tribulation in Church, Part 1 -6. And if you want to know what he really believed about that, he really lets you have it in those clips that we have posted.

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They're powerful, and he very strongly opposes dividing over this issue, and by no means did he ever consider it heresy, and he was grieved that anybody would demonize their brother or sister of Christ over an issue such as this.

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Well, I'm glad that he called himself a Calminian rather than an Arvinist.

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At least he put the Calvin part first. We're going to be going to our final break of the interview, so if you have a question for Cindy Martin Morgan that you'd like to ask regarding her dad and the wonderful, invaluable contribution that he has made to the body of Christ, which

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I'm sure will have a meaningful, lasting impact until the Lord returns, if you have a question, please give us an email at And please include your first name, city and state, and if outside the

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USA, your country. And we are going to be back in just a couple of minutes with more of Cindy Martin Morgan and our tribute to her father, our apologist,

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Walter Martin, on the 26th anniversary of his homecoming to Christ for eternity. Enthusiastically serving our

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Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Introducing 1031

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Sermon Jams. Sermon Jams. But now for the good news. That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me, and you know that you don't need

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Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you would like to learn more about 1031

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Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

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Sermon Jams. 1031 Sermon Jams.

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1031 Sermon Jams. In the power, in the glory, forever and ever.

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Amen, amen, amen, amen. Inside a dark cell, he's waiting.

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Love is his only crime. He loves our own children.

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Please don't let him die. He laid down his life to comfort us, to keep us from the cold.

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To give us a chance to grow up, and to grow old.

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To give us a chance to grow up, and to grow old.

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That's Love is His Only Crime, Save Saeed, another song written and produced by our guest

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Cindy Martin Morgan, the daughter of Dr. Walter Martin, who went home to be with Christ for eternity on this very day,

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June 26th. Tell us something about who Saeed is, and about this particular song that you've created.

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Well, of course, Saeed Abedini is an Assembly of God pastor, and he went to Iran to build an orphanage.

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And it was with the permission of the Iranian government. He was taken and arrested for his faith in Jesus Christ, and has been imprisoned in one of the worst prisons in Iran for the past three years.

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I know Nagmeh, his wife, and we have just been in prayer for her family, like so many millions have been in prayer for this sweet family that has suffered so tremendously for the sake of the gospel.

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And I wrote this song because God had put it on my heart, what a precious thing

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Saeed was doing when he was arrested. And just to lay down his life like he did for the sake of loving children and showing them that love of Christ really is what he was doing in trying to build that orphanage.

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And you know, Christ has come into the world to save. We were once orphans, too, and to me it's such a precious example of Christ's work for his children.

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And we just have been so grieved for them and are praying that the Lord will release him.

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Now, the song is actually sung by Sharon, who sings Fearfully and Wonderfully Made, my daughter.

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This is her daughter, Lauren, that actually sings the solo in this song.

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And Lauren was about the same age Sharon was when she sang Fearfully and Wonderfully Made.

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So it's kind of been interesting to us that the Lord has used our daughter and our granddaughter to sing for life in the way that he has.

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Amen. And obviously for more information on how to get a hold of this music created by our guest,

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Cindy Martin Morgan, go to WalterMartinJude3 .com, WalterMartinJude3 .com,

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the ministry that is operated by Cindy Martin Morgan and her husband Rick. And I understand that Rick is actually on staff at the

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Christian Research Institute, which was founded by your father. Yes, he is. He is the webmaster there.

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And he just feels so blessed to be able to serve the Lord there in this capacity. And I can tell you kind of a funny story about Rick and my father that occurred to me on break.

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When Rick and I were first married, we were listening to the Bible Answer Man program, and we decided that he would call up my father and he would ask him about the sovereignty of God.

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And what was hilarious about it is that my dad knew it was him, of course, but he didn't say anything.

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And he really was so funny. He said, I just have a quick question for you about the sovereignty of God. And my father said, a quick question, huh?

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And he really laughed. It was so funny. And we just really have such a precious memory.

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He's so loving and just makes us laugh. That's the kind of relationship we had, just very loving and very close.

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And we're just so grateful and thankful to be able to have had that with him. And I used to tease them both, too.

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I would sit in the back. One time, in particular, when we would drive in the car, we'd go out.

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I'd sit in the back and he'd be up front. One time I kind of put Rick on the spot and I asked my dad a theological question that I knew

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Rick was kind of leaning in a different direction on at that time. And then I asked my dad to kind of respond to Rick's question.

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And it was just hilarious because Rick was really squirming. You're putting me next to the

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Bible. You're making me defend myself. So, yeah, we really just had fun.

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The laughter and the love and the hugs, he gave the greatest bear hugs. Like I said earlier, he was just a lot of fun, too.

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Amen. Well, this actually gives me the opportunity to extend a heartfelt thanks once again to my webmaster,

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Jason Delgado of the Confessing Baptist, ConfessingBaptist .com, who created

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IronSharpensIronRadio .com. And I know that the quick growth of global listeners to my broadcast that has developed over the last three weeks since I relaunched would not be happening at this rate, most likely, without the masterpiece of a website that my new friend,

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Jason Delgado, has created. And I say new friend because I didn't even know who Jason was when he volunteered to create a website for IronSharpensIron because he had loved the program in the past and had been announcing on his own website,

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ConfessingBaptist .com, that we were soon going to be relaunching. And he volunteered his talents and time to create this website and maintain it absolutely free.

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And he's doing a spectacular job. Oh, praise God. God bless him. So I know that what your husband,

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Rick, is doing is a very important task for ministries.

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One could very quickly ignore a website if it's not professional in appearance and easy to navigate.

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That's true. We have another listener, an anonymous listener, from Amityville, Long Island, New York, who said,

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I understand that the Kingdom of the Cults book had to be revised due to the chapter on Seventh -day

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Adventism. I believe your dad had changed his mind about Seventh -day

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Adventism, and I was wondering if you knew specifically the reasons why he embraced them as an evangelical denomination, and if you agreed with your dad.

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Well, quite honestly, I am not up on that question. I would recommend they contact

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CRI and ask them that question, and I'm sure they would provide them with the scoop.

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Okay. He might even be thinking of the Worldwide Church of God, which had gone through radical theological transformation, but I'm not sure if that happened while your dad was alive on this earth,

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I should say. I don't think it did. Yeah, I don't think it did either. We have another question from Christian in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, again,

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New York. We have a question, I understand from what you've been saying that your dad did not believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, but did he believe that a genuine

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Christian could lose his or her salvation? He did not believe a genuine Christian could lose their salvation, no.

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That would be something very common amongst Southern Baptists, is the belief in eternal security.

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Yes, he believed in eternal security, for sure. And what do you think is the greatest legacy that your dad has left the world and the

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Church at large since he has gone to heaven? Well, I think 1 Peter 3 .15,

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his echoing of that, until God took him, you know, but in your heart, set apart Christ as Lord, always be prepared to give an answer to everyone for the answer that lies—

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I'm sorry, I'm saying that backwards. Always be prepared to give an answer for the reason and the hope that you have, but do it with gentleness and respect and equipping the body of Christ to do that.

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And I think that that was his greatest legacy, was living that Scripture out before the world and teaching them how to live it out and seeking to provide them with the resources to do that.

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And do you know of any ways that your dad, while you were adult enough to understand more clearly doctrine and theology, do you know of any radical change that took place in anything he believed over the years, as an apologist especially?

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In him before God took him home, are you asking? Excuse me? In him before God took him home?

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Yes, before the Lord took him home, while he was still on this earth. I didn't hear you very well on that question.

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Yes, of course we know that the change took place after he went home to the Lord because we know he's a Calvinist now.

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But I mean, when he was alive on this earth, did you notice or were you aware of any theological change, especially one that was significant?

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No, no. And I do want to say that he didn't always update me on every single thing.

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He was into so many things theologically, but not that I'm aware of now.

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And one of the things that is prevalent, as you know, in the modern evangelical church is easy -believism.

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And I know many Southern Baptist pastors who grieve and lament over the fact that their own denomination appears to be plagued with it.

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And, of course, they do not corner the market on that. But did your father have a burden against that, where people, you know, just by merely reciting a prayer and coming forward at an altar call or an invitation, they have been deemed to be truly born again just by that mere initial profession.

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And no matter what this person may live like thereafter is immaterial in regard to their eternal destiny.

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What was his views on that, if you know? Well, my impression, and what I was raised in, and what he told me and taught me personally, was that he believed that there had to be fruit in the life of a believer that would demonstrate they belonged to Jesus Christ.

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So I don't think he thought there were magic words. I know some people do, but he believed that the work of the

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Holy Spirit would be in the life of the person truly saved, and it would manifest itself in that life.

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So I do believe that he was thinking along those lines and felt that it wasn't just saying the magic words.

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It had to be a life transformed by Jesus Christ. Do you happen to be aware of what he believed was the greatest theological danger facing the

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Church in the 20th century? Well, I know I remember early on, not long before God took him,

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I know he was talking about Mormonism and his concerns about Mormonism, and I think he saw that as a growing threat to the

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Church simply because they have the same terminology and definitions, obviously, for all the same terms that Christians have.

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So I think he saw that as a very large danger. But beyond that, the health and world gospel too was really something he saw as a great threat to the body of Christ, and he did speak quite a bit about that before God took him as well.

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Yeah, and going back to the Mormon issue, one of the reasons that it's becoming an increasing threat, not that the

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Mormon Church is growing, I don't believe they are, I think that they've kind of reached a standstill or even received a loss of membership, but the tactics of Mormons have radically changed where they went from being the publicly declaring more clearly and honestly and openly that they believed that they were the only true

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Church and religion, whereas now they are identifying themselves as Christian and really trying to blend in with the

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Evangelical Church at large. And you will hear politicians who are

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Mormon get angry when they are identified as being other than Christian.

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Right, and my father was very adamant that we define our terms.

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With that said, he still loved the Mormons, he stopped at Mormon stores, he bought his home from a

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Mormon, so he didn't demonize them as people, so he loved them.

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Well, if you could, just in about a minute's time, give our listeners what you want most etched on their hearts and minds before they leave this broadcast today,

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Cindy. Well, I guess just to remember that we are in a spiritual battle, in a spiritual war, and that we just need to keep our eyes on Jesus and run the race that he has set before us, and ask the

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Lord what we can do to make a difference for all time and eternity. Amen, and the website, once again, is

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WalterMartinJude3, and that's the number three, the numeral three, WalterMartinJude3 .com.

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I want to thank you so much for being our guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron, Cindy.

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I am also thankful to Jeff Rose of Jeremiah Cry and the

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Herald Society for graciously agreeing to change his date to be interviewed because he was aware that today,

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June 26th, was the anniversary of your dad's passing into glory. Thanks to him as well.

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And I want to thank him especially and ask for your prayers for him because his brother, one of his brothers, just very recently, within a week or so, had passed away at a very young age.

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So we ask of your prayers for Jeff and his family as they grieve. We will pray. And next week, we may try to do something on the recent decision of the

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Supreme Court on same -sex marriage, but as of right now, we have scheduled Richard Bennett, a former

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Roman Catholic priest who is the founder of Berean Beacon, an evangelical

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Christian apologetics organization, and we also have Cecil Andrews of Northern Ireland on.

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He is the founder, or actually not the founder, but the current director of Take Heed Ministries. And we have a former medium, a former occultist medium,

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Jennifer Holfacker, who has come to Christ on July 2nd.

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And on July 3rd, we have Peter Lilbeck, the president of Westminster Theological Seminary, very appropriately before the 4th of July, discussing the life of George Washington.