Calvinism vs Arminianism, Part 2

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Yes, good afternoon again and for those of you who are familiar with Steve Gregg you are fans of the show frequent listeners
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Just bear with me as I offer his brief bio for the listeners that come via Dr.
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James White's ministry or for anyone who's new to the show today Steve Gregg is of course the host of the narrow path
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He is the author of revelation for views Steve is a lifelong Bible teacher
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Perhaps the thing he's known most for knows the word very well, and he's also a frequent teacher worldwide with the mission agency youth with a mission or why wham and Teacher in local churches as well in the
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Bay Area today. He'll be joined by dr. James White He is the director of Alpha and Omega ministries that is an apologetics oriented ministry
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Dr. White is the author of the Potter's freedom a book where he critiques dr.
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Norman Geisler's view of the topic today He also is known for relative to this topic today his book with Dave Hunt, which is debating
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Calvinism five points two views Dr. White is also an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church He's a professor at Golden Gate Theological Seminary and a frequent debater both with those within Roman Catholicism Mormonism and Most recently if you follow his ministry, you'll notice he's debating an awful lot of Muslim apologists and quite well
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I might add so we welcome. Dr. James White as well along with Steve the presenters can either make a positive case for their view or They can interview the opponent and have a little bit of an interchange
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Sort of a cross -examination if they like all right well, dr. White you're first As I mentioned yesterday the primary reason that I am reformed believe you
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It's not for trying to build large ministries or make lots of money because I can assure you Certain things to do that are death upon a ministry or to address
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Roman Catholicism or be a Calvinist So there must be a reason why I am
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Committed to the understanding that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation and that he saves
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Perfectly into his own glory, and he does so Based upon eternal decree and as I mentioned yesterday
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My reasoning for that is because I believe that we must apply the same
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Hermeneutic the same methodology of interpretation all across the spectrum I cannot use one form of interpretation defending the deity of Christ defending the resurrection or justification by faith then something else just because it steps on my toes when it comes to issues like free will or something along these lines and so for me
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I Start with biblical exegesis And then I create a philosophical system based upon what
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I believe the consistent teaching of the Word of God is I do not start With philosophy I start with the fact that God has revealed his word and that mankind is commanded in fact
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To think his thoughts after him to give to his revelation Primacy in all things and so because of that there are certain texts of scripture that I believe very clearly very forcefully in Context if we use a consistent hermeneutic that we would use to defend any of the other great doctrines of faith
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Teach the doctrines of grace as a Calvinist or want to call them one that is most popular in the sense of very well known and I think that communicates very strongly to people is
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Jesus his own presentation of these truths in the synagogue in Capernaum And so I would like to look at what
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Jesus said in that context and hopefully Not just this one, but look at a few other texts as well
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Over the course of this hour to begin laying that biblical foundation For the doctrines of grace and in John chapter 6 we have the story of Jesus feeding the 5 ,000 the next day
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People come searching for him. These are actually got seeking after Jesus They find him in the synagogue in Capernaum, and they begin to question him and we are told
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Something very very important that needs to be understood beginning of verse 35 of John chapter 6
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Jesus said to them I am the bread of life Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst
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But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe
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Now these are people seeking after Jesus and yet he says they are unbelievers and the rest of this text is an
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Explanation of why there are believers and unbelievers and in fact the entire rest of this chapter ends up leading us to Only 12 followers of Jesus one of them the devil the other 11 are confused
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And they're the ones who continue to follow after Jesus and so Jesus is explaining
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The unbelief of these men and why anyone has true faith He says in verse 37 all that the father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me
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I will never cast out now. Please notice that to come to Christ is obviously to believe in Christ How is it that a person comes to believe in Christ because the father gives that person to Christ There is no question that in the original language in any translation
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However, you want to put it the giving of the father in verse 37 precedes and determines the coming to Christ All that the father gives me will come to me and so if I want to say well
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That's because the father foresaw that they would come or or they were particularly good or they were better than somebody else
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That has to be explained from the context You have to determine how that comes from the context how
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Jesus's own words lead you to that That can't just be stuck in there Because what the text says is that the father gives a certain people the son and as a result they come
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Then the rest of verse 37 says and whoever comes to me the one coming to me. I will never cast out
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Why will he never cast out one who comes to him? because The explanation is given to us the next two verses
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For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me So the son has come down of heaven to do the father's will what are the father's will for him?
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And this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me but raise it up on the last day.
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So here is to me one of the greatest statements of what
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Distinguishes a truly biblical Soteriology a truly biblical view of salvation from the many sub biblical views that are very popular today
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And that is do we believe that Jesus can be a perfect Savior? Does Jesus ever fail to save someone that is the father's will for him to say?
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Can Jesus save perfectly without the cooperation of mankind does Jesus try to save anyone?
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But since they they refuse to cooperate or they only cooperate for a while Whatever it might be he fails in that task
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The text is very very very clear He has come down of heaven to do the will of the father and what is the will of the father?
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That he should lose nothing of all that he has given me But raised up on the last day to be raised up in the last day is to receive eternal life and clear the forgiveness of sins
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For this is the will of my father's everyone who looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life And I will raise them up the last day who are those who will look upon the son?
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Who are those who will believe upon the son into eternal life those given by the father to the son?
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Many people try to go to verse 40 reverse it read it back into verse 37 as if verse 40 came before verse 37
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That is not the methodology of the hermeneutic that we use in any other interpretation.
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Well, then there's grumbling about what he has said and A rejection of who Jesus is and how can he say he came down of heaven and Jesus answered them verse 43
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Do not grumble among yourselves No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day
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It is written the prophets. They will all be taught by God everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me
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What does Jesus say? No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him
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No one has that capacity. No one has that ability Everyone must experience this drawing.
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Well, what is this drawing? Well, he who is drawn is the one who is raised up if you're going to say that you can be drawn
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But resist that drawing then you have to explain why it is then verse 44 You introduce a distinction between the one who is drawn and the one who is raised up when there is no distinction in the original
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Language at all and why in verse 45 that drawing is described as being taught by God Hearing from God drawing from the prophets
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This is what God does all that he gives to the Son He draws to the
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Son and the Son perfectly saves them and raises them up in the last day Now you may note there is nothing so far in John chapter 6 about synergism
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There is nothing about how man can derail the attempts of the Father and the Son to bring about salvation there is nothing here telling us that while God the
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Father is going to try and Jesus the Son is going to try and the Holy Spirit could come and try That it's up to man to finally make this whole thing work instead
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The focus is upon the perfection of the work of Jesus Christ all to the glory of God And so here we have in Jesus's own words this clear statement
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How do we understand all that the Father gives me will come to me if we believe in some sort of libertarian free will where man
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Has the ability to reject the work of the Spirit of God How do we understand that no one has the ability to come unto
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Jesus Christ unless this special drawing takes place? These are the questions we must ask of this text and of any text that addresses these that hopefully today
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We'll also get a chance to look at Romans 8 Ephesians 1 some of the other texts that are so important in this very vital discussion.
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Thank you very much Thank you. Dr. Wine. Thank you for keeping to the time so well as you always do Steve now
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Your turn to either make a presentation of a related or different topic or respond to dr.
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White Steve Yeah, well, I guess I'll go ahead and respond to that since it's on everybody's mind.
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I do have other things I want to present but let's let's talk about John 6 a little bit Dr. White says nothing in John 6.
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There's nothing there about synergism now many of our listeners may not know what synergism means Synergism means working together
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The Calvinist believes in monergism which means there's only one person working in salvation and that's
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God and They say that our minions believe in synergism, which means two people working are working together
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God working and man working that's not exactly what any Armenian I know believes
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We don't believe that man works, but we do believe that man has to believe and believing is not work
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So it's really synergism is a misnomer, but certainly dr. White raises a good question is it possible for God to want to save somebody and And for them not to come for God to be frustrated in this effort
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I believe the Bible teaches in many places that is in fact true God said to Cain that if he would do well that he could be accepted as Able was that sounds like God was offering him a genuine opportunity and that God would have liked him to do it
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And he warned him if you don't do well sin is at the door and you must conquer it God expressed his will to Cain that Cain would be saved that Cain would do well
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But the man didn't the man is a son of the devil and and you know ended up lost so it didn't work out for Cain Jesus said that he wanted to draw
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Jerusalem's children to him and Jerusalem would not allow this to happen Apparently and so it was looks like some people weren't saved that God wanted to save so what do we do with John 6 dr.
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White in responding to some of my comments on an earlier occasion Said that you can't bring in you know
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Verses from other passages that aren't in the context to explain them and yet at the beginning of his presentation today
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He said we want to use the same hermeneutical principles. We use say for proving the Trinity or the deity of Christ Well when we prove the
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Trinity we certainly bring in verses From other places to qualify verses that we see if we see a verse that says there's only one
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God We don't know there's a Trinity from that verse alone We have to bring in verses to say that Jesus is
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God and that the Father is God and so forth we of course That's how we do theology. That's how hermeneutics is done. You don't just take passage in isolation and ignore the other relevant passages that talk about the same thing and When Jesus said no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him
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And when he said no one will come to me or he says everyone that the father gives to me will certainly come to me
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Jesus is certainly talking about some group of people that he said would come to him They are described as those that the father has drawn and they're described as the ones that the father
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Gives him now who are the ones that the father gives him well if we go to another passage
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It's not really a different context because it's still in the gospel of John using the same language No one, but John records this kind of language from Jesus, but in John 17 6
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Jesus said I have manifested your name to the men whom you have given me out of the world okay
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That's the same group the ones that the father has given him and Jesus says they were yours And you gave them to me, and they have kept your word
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So here he says that there are people that were already God's people We have to assume these are the believing remnant in Israel These are the people who already believed in God these the ones who already were hearing
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Moses and the prophets and God they were God's people and Jesus said they were yours and you gave them to me
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This is not talking about him taking the devil's people and giving them to Jesus It's taking
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God's people God's who are already you know worshipers of God already disposed to him
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It agrees with what Jesus said just a chapter before the one that dr. White's using in John chapter 5
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Jesus said to the Pharisees in verse 44 How can you believe who receive honor from one another? But don't seek the honor that comes from God alone
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Do you think that I shall accuse you to the father? There is one who accuses you Moses in whom you trust for if you believed
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Moses you would believe me For he wrote about me in other words if you were one of those of the remnant of Israel who did believe in Moses Well, then you would believe in me, too
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Because believing in Jesus requires exactly the same kind of openness to God's will That is involved in coming to Christ And so really the people that God gave to Jesus are the people that were already
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God's people They were already the people that were worshipping God and therefore they do not represent a case of God taking the devil's people who are unbelievers and Transforming them into believers.
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That's not what Jesus describes there And so of course God draws to Jesus the people that were already worshippers of God.
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They were already in God's camp They were already his worshippers. We see the same thing in the 16th chapter of Acts in Lystra Where it says of Lydia that God opened her heart to pay heed to what
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Paul said Well, okay. There's a case of God drawing someone to Christ He opened her heart
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But we're told in that very same verse just a you know a sentence earlier that Lydia was a worshipper of God already
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She was already a Jewish worshipper of God. She was part of the believing remnant of Israel already and because she was
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She was already God's person. And of course, it's natural for I mean I could say anyone who loves me will love my children and That'd be a universal statement
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And it would be true if people love me as they should they will of course for my sake love my children, too
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And Jesus can say anyone who loves my father will love me if you've listened to Moses and the prophets
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Well, then you'll come to me too. You'll hear me also So the ones that the father gave to Jesus Jesus himself tells us they are the ones that already were believers in the father
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They were already the ones who heard Moses and the prophets and even the passage that says that no one can come to me unless The father draws him is
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Followed by this verse 45 in John 6 Where it says it is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught of God Jesus says therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the father
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Comes to me now has heard and learned from the father's past tense comes to me as present tense
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So he's saying those who have already heard from God those who've already Listened to God.
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Those are the ones who do come to me. The Armenian wouldn't really have any problem with that at all I don't think
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I can't imagine why that'd be a problem to anybody who takes my position Certainly I could predict that anyone who's already worshiping the
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God of Israel That God when his son came would point his son out to them would reveal to them.
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This is the Messiah Just like he did Simeon in the temple Simeon was a worshiper of God when
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Jesus was brought to the temple God revealed him This is the Messiah and Simeon embraced him. That's true.
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The whole Jewish remnant in Jesus day And that would be my understanding of these passages. They do not prove a
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Calvinist position at all They fit very well with that our main position. It seems to me Thank You Steve Dr.
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White your chance now to respond in kind or present on another topic the next eight minutes are yours
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Thank you. I would like to respond to that because I would just invite folks I gave a positive presentation that worked verse by verse through the text
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And I didn't get that in his response instead I saw a number of different subjects and in the text addressed without actually walking through the text and demonstrating
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How it's consistent a positive way with one's position in essence what we were just told for example
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We're just told the will and John 645 Everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me both of those
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Actions are describing the drawing of the father Why is that have to why is the father have to draw somebody if these people have already chosen to be
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God fears? The idea these are the God fears completely ignores the context the fact that these these people who are coming to Jesus Searching at Jesus are going to walk away.
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They are going to reject him. He is explaining the unbelief of these individuals He is contrasting them with somebody else and yet to read into John 6 the idea that well
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These are people have already chosen God John 17 6 that was written was mentioned is about the Apostles and the rest of the of that Text he then talks about those who will believe because of their message
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So clearly this is not some remnant of Israel text. This is not some Context that can be taken out of the soteriological discussion that is being presented to us
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Cain Matthew 23 none of these had really anything to do with with the subject of John chapter 6 at all and The presentation that is made by the
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Lord Jesus there It doesn't explain why it is that there has to be this drawing why God had to open?
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Why did God have to open Lydia's heart well because she was a God fear those are people who attended the synagogue
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But who had not been converted Judaism. She still need to hear the gospel She still need to have her heart opened for that to take place
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And the fact is God opened her heart and she believed we don't have any evidence of God opening somebody else's heart then failing
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To cause them to come unto salvation So I really do not believe that the order that Jesus himself presents the context in which he presented
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John chapter 6 has been Responded to at all and I would to repeat in light of Steve Gregg's denial of the eternal security believer in the full offense
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To answer the question in verse 39 is it possible for the son to lose?
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One of those who is truly one of his sheep can Jesus ever say to one of those who's lost I never knew you given the fact that to truly be one of the sheep involves that intimate close communication between Jesus and those that are his
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But then time is so so short in in the time that we have let me just read into our hearing and an attempt very briefly to Further explicate this doctrine from Paul's letter to the
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Ephesians When he says the beginning blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing and heavenly places, please follow the pronouns and please follow the verbs
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Notice who is active and who is the recipient of the actions and in what the context is
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We are blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing It is we who are blessed is not
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Christ is blessed But it's only those who are in him verse 2 even as he the father chose us
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We are the direct object of the verb there in him that is in Christ Christ is not the one who is elected here
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We are the ones who are elected here in Christ when before the foundation of the world For what purpose that we should be holy and blameless before him
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Can we be holy and blameless without this having to do with salvation? Is this only about the benefits of salvation? No, we have to be able to be saved to be holy and blameless before him in love
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He the father predestined us the elect direct object of the verb for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ According to what according to foreseen merit according to our being better than someone else because we are more spiritually sensitive
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We are willing to believe repent whatever it might be. No according to the purpose of his will
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For what purpose to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in The beloved the beloved one that is in Jesus Christ in him that is in Christ.
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We have Redemption through his blood only those who are in him have redemption through his blood
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Notice the connection there of his blood to redemption the forgiveness of our trespasses
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According to what standard the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us in All wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will according to his purpose
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Which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him things in heaven and things on Earth in him that is in Christ.
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We have obtained an inheritance Having been predestined According to the purpose of him who works all things
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According to the counsel of his will please notice this description of God that he is the one who works all things according to the counsel of his will and what has just what's the context of that the summing up of all of creation to limit the activity of his
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Doing all things according to counsel as well is to ignore the preceding verse Which is talking about God's purpose of wrapping everything up in Jesus Christ so that the elect received the grace and mercy of God Those who are not received justice no one ever receives injustice
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No one ever receives what they do not want the elect do not want God they reject God and his purposes
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The but they don't elect the elect Because they're changed by the work of the Spirit of God which then comes out in verse 14 of the
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Holy Spirit is the guarantee Of our inheritance cetera cetera their hearts are changed. They are made into God lovers
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They receive from God that which he desires to give to them And so we have two texts two different authors both referring to eternal decisions
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Remember that when Jesus speaks of the will of the Father and his coming into the world Clearly this is the eternal covenant of redemption that that is reflected here in his words and the will of the
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Father for him about Something has came up with during time This is something God has determined when he created he was going to glorify himself in this way and here
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Paul is bringing out the same things in Ephesians chapter 1 reminding the church that it has been God's eternal purpose
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To redeem a particular people in Christ Jesus and so often the question is asked of me well
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Well, why me and not someone else is if not arbitrary on God's part
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Please notice the answer to that question may or may not satisfy someone but the Bible does answer the question the purpose is according to the purpose of his will verse 5 and The result is to the praise of his glorious grace
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Now if that grace is insufficient without my addition to it if that grace is constantly failing if that grace
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Is just a partial Reason for why I will stand before the Father in heaven and worship for eternity then
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Should there not be other objects of of praise if my will is is
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Really the determining factor in all these things, but in the final analysis. It's not just well
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You know the whole plan of salvation is according to God's grace and therefore That's why his glorious grace is praise. He didn't have to save anybody, but he made available
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I think that is is a real sub a biblical reading of what is found here in the text itself
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That point us back to eternity and to the future eternity and who is active in all this
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What is the purpose of it it is God who is active it is God who is the one who's bringing about the glorification of?
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His own grace in eternity and that I believe is a summary of a biblical concept of God's role in salvation
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Thank You dr. White if you're just joining us you're listening to the narrow path radio broadcast hosted by Steve Gregg Steve is one of the debaters today in a five day series of debates.
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We are now on day two Representing the Calvinist view is dr. James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and representing the non
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Calvinist view is Your normal host Steve Gregg Steve now will take up his second section of eight minutes where he can either
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Present as he would like or respond to dr. White so Steve Thank you.
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I would like to get around to presenting here at some point because yesterday Dr. White said he would like to hear me give a positive presentation of my two main points
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Which I of course am prepared to do but I want to again respond here to some of the points that dr.
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White has made I Would just say that anyone who wishes to listen to the recording of this can decide whether I addressed the issue in John chapter 6 or not
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James White was concerned that I didn't go through verse by verse and and follow the thought there I don't need to he already did that We are not disagreeing about anything in the passage except who are the ones that the father gave to Jesus and I already demonstrated
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That Jesus himself said the ones that the father gave to him are The ones that were already
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God's if my stating that and pointing that in Scripture isn't sufficient to convince anybody I don't have anything to gain by convincing people
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But I do think that it's quite obvious when you compare Scripture of Scripture And once we've decided that and no other changes have to be made to the the treatment of the passage in John chapter 6
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We just now know who he's talking about. So that's not a problem. James said that the issue of Cain and the issue of Jerusalem and Jesus wanting to draw them and not coming and so forth.
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He said that's not relevant to the subject of John 6 This is what I've heard James White do in many debates as long as you know, he can't answer something very adequately
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Says it's not relevant to the passage In fact, I think it's very relevant if we're asking the question and this is the question
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James did ask me Is it possible for God to want somebody be saved and for them not to be saved?
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Those are in fact examples that answer that question is quite relevant indeed now going to Ephesians chapter 1
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He said he wants us to pay very close attention to the pronouns here Well, we can do that and in Ephesians chapter 1 verses 1 through 12 there's a lot of us and wheeze and so forth and I I think it's good to pay attention to those but of course
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When he gets to verse 13 Paul then changes the pronouns Maybe we should notice that too verse 13 says in him you also
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Trusted after you heard the word of truth. Well, now it's no longer we and us it's you to you as well as we
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Which raises questions of well, who is the you and who is the we it would seem of course clear that the
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Ephesians at least Gentile Christians are the you to he's writing to Gentiles.
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It would seem primarily He does call them Gentiles in chapter 2 says you were Gentiles. You were alienated from the
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Commonwealth of Israel So we'll say he's writing to Gentiles there. The you are the Gentiles then who are the we?
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well It's hard to say isn't it? But it's someone other than the Gentiles perhaps. It's the
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Jews Yeah, they were the first to experience all the blessings that Paul mentions there and then he says now you to you
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Gentiles are now Included as well. There are some people I'm not necessarily one of them, but I guess I could consider the possibility some people think that the we are
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Paul and his companion apostles and that he's talking about the Apostles having been specially chosen
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By God for for these blessings and now of course the Gentiles get to come into the picture as well
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I don't really worry about whether the we refers to the Jews or to the Apostles specifically But I do think that whatever it refers to It tells us that God has a purpose and that the salvation of people in Christ is a fulfillment of that purpose
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Now he does not of course tell us whether the individuals who are saved Were purposed individually or whether the church as a whole is what we're talking about because after all he is using a plural pronoun we or us he doesn't say
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I He could of course if he wanted to make that point because he would mean that an individual and he has an individual were chosen
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But he says us and we I take us and we to be a reference to all who are in Christ, whoever they may be
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It's a corporate Reference. It's what Paul does throughout Ephesians and in the whole passage that dr.
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White read There's a great emphasis on in Christ in Christ in Christ. In fact, he read The statement in verse 4 which is just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world
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And dr. White said it's not Christ who's chosen. It's we are chosen in him Well that I think is misunderstanding what in him means later on in chapter 2 and verse 6
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Paul says God raised us up together and made us to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus Are we going to say it's not
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Christ Jesus who's raised up and sitting in the heavenly places because it says we are in him
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You see what Paul is saying is that we are incorporated into Christ and what is true of him is
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Imputed to be true of us as well because we are of his flesh and of his bones. We are part of him that's what it means to be in Christ and so Christ is raised up and seated in the heavenly places and We are in him in that position to not because we literally are there.
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I'm not I'm not really in the heavenly places I'm right here someday. I may be caught up to meet him in the air But right now
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I'm still here on earth both feet firmly planted But as far as God's reckoning is concerned what is true of Christ is also true of me
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My position is reckoned to be the same as that of Christ. And so in him I am where he is
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Likewise in all the statements about in him. It's really Christ. That is the one that has all these blessings
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It's Christ the one who has all the privileges and we have them in so far as we are in him
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And so when Paul says that God chose us in him of course, what he's saying is that Christ is the chosen one and in him we also are chosen and So We are chosen in him that that would mean that because he is chosen
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We are counted as chosen also, but it does not tell us if I was chosen to be in him
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That's the question Paul does not say that we were chosen to be in him That would be a very different kind of statement
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You see Paul is telling us we are in him those of us who are Christians are in Christ And he's telling us what the privileges are of those of us who have that position
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We are in Christ and as such we have such position of privilege
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It would be interesting if Paul had said God chose us as Individuals to be in Christ that would actually make the very point that dr.
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White would like for Paul to make Unfortunately Paul I don't think makes that point here and I don't think he makes it elsewhere either.
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So Ephesians 1 and John chapter 6 don't really present any challenges that I can see to my personal
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Understanding of soteriology and of how God saves I understand these are favorite proof texts of Calvinism But once they're looked at through a non -Calvinist lens
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There's nothing about them that forces us to see them in a Calvinist way And I don't have that prior commitment, so I just look at them and see what they do say
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Thank You Steve dr. White. I would like to respond to what was just said I don't think it's
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Calvinistic presuppositions. That means that the phrase Cato's Exilexata Hamas means he chose us the direct object of the verb is us
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It is not the phrase that falls after that and out Oh, it is us who are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and please note unto
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Which unto what were we chosen unto holiness and blamelessness now Christ isn't being chosen
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Unto holiness and blamelessness that that is something we need him for So I'm sorry
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But the text is very clear that who is chosen the direct object of choose is not
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Christ You can find that elsewhere in Peter, but that's not Paul and right here. He says we are the ones chosen and Nothing has been explained as to well if that choice is in the realm of Christ only in Christ Christ is the only means by which this could take place because of his death on the cross
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That that means that somehow Christ the chosen one I did not understand the reference to Ephesians chapter 2 certainly because we even see in the heavenly places that does not have anything to Do with Christ not being seen in heavenly places.
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There's no logical parallel between that All the only reason I mentioned this is that many people like to try to say well
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No, no, we're not the ones that are chosen a plans been chosen or Christ the chosen one if we choose to be in him
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Etc. Etc. That's just not what the text says the text says we are chosen in him
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Object there's no way around that when I mentioned Cain and Matthew 23 what
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I was saying there I was not that I didn't have an answer to these things what I was saying is that when we interpret one particular text
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We have one particular text in John that is specifically on the subject of why some people believe and other people do not
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Cain's story is not about salvation Matthew 23 is a section about judgment Jewish leaders
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Why go to text that are not specifically on the subject come to a disputed understanding of them then read that back into this
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That was my concern at that particular point in time that that was the general general direction
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We might be going at that point, but to again help to Emphasize what is found in the teachings of the
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New Testament? Let me Present another section for Paul and that is that which is found in his letter to the
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Romans We could start in many different places But I think it'd be best just to look at the golden chain of redemption for now
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We know that for those who love God Romans 828 says all things work together for good
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For those who are called according to his people his purpose here We have a group called the called those who are called and they are called according to what?
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According to their actions according to their free response of faith know they are called according to his purpose
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For those whom he foreknew that is an active verb that does not mean to have foreknowledge of future events
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To foreknow is an active verb on the part of God and we must allow that to be a positive action from God's perspective
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What does that mean? It does not mean taking in passive knowledge of future events. It's an active verb for knowledge of the now
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That's different thing that has to be understood for those whom he foreknew He also predestined so this action on God's part is followed by another action on God's part
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These are active verbs not passive verbs. These are things he does for those whom he foreknew
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He also predestined to what to be conformed the image of his son can't is that just saying that well all this is saying is that God's choice is that the elect will be like Jesus or Does to be conformed the image of Christ require the entirety of salvation to be included?
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How can I as a sinner be conformed the image of the sinless Son of God if that does not include?
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atonement forgiveness Regeneration sanctification all the things that are a part of the ordo salutis the work of God in our hearts in our lives
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Those who before knew he also predestined to be conformed the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many
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Brothers, please note. This is focused upon what God's purpose is It is God's purpose to redeem a peculiar people in Christ.
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Jesus. That is how he has chosen to glorify himself and That's how he's doing this and he's doing so perfectly and those who me predestined
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He also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified
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How many are called those who are predestined how many are justified those who are called how many are glorified?
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Those are justified if you try to break up the golden chain of redemption You end up making mincemeat out of Paul's arguments in this text however, you see this it is
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God who is active at every single point and Clearly this calling is the effective calling is the same calling we see
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Fleshed out in John chapter 6 is the those who are drawn by the father to the son here
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That's that effective calling they are justified why because they will believe How can we know that for certain because?
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Belief is the result of the work of the Spirit of God who has freed us from slavery to sin as Jesus said those commit
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Sin are the slaves of sin we have been changed and it's a natural thing for the changed heart to believe in Christ and to cling to Christ and Therefore they are justified and because they have been justified that as they've had the righteousness of Christ imputed to him to them
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They also will be glorified even though each one of these is placed in the past tense to emphasize the certainty of the finality with which
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God has Chosen to glorify himself and bring about his own glorification as a result
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He then says what then shall we save these things if God is for us who can be against us?
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He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all who is this assault? It's the elect
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Christ is given for the elect. He has given up for the elect He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all
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How will he not also with him graciously give us all things if the us is here is the entire world if the us is here?
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Includes those who will experience God's wrath for all eternity then all things have been given to them
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Christ has been given for them the entirety of salvation has been given for them, but it fails and Hence why in the world is
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Paul even making these these even saying these words because they would make no sense He did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
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Who shall bring any charge against whom God's? elect who will bring a charge and Why cannot charge not be brought against God's elect because it's
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God who justifies that demonstrates the forensic or legal nature of justification Who is to condemn
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Christ Jesus the one who died more than that who was raised who's the right hand of God who indeed is? Interceding for us for whom does
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Jesus Christ intercede he intercedes for the elect of God the elect of God Must be known to him for him to intercede for them the elect of God cannot be a nebulous gaseous cloud and the identity of those people
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Changing as apostasy takes place or people choose to get in or choose to get out or whatever else it might be
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The elect of God are known and the elect of God are known Perfectly to the triune
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God from eternity past and the Son of God Intercedes on their behalf and he does so perfectly that is why he can fulfill the command of John chapter 6
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That the will the father of him is that he lose none of them because what does Hebrews say? He is able to save the uttermost why because he always lives to make intercession for them
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What does all this have in common God is the one who is active God never fails and bring about the salvation of his people to his own glory
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Thank you. Dr. White. I must say that you never fail and staying within a time limit. Very good Steve your final eight minutes for today
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Let's go back to Ephesians 1 4 for a moment because that's a very important verse about election It says just as he chose us in him before the foundations of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him
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In love, what does that mean as I understand it? We were chosen in Christ and we were chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless in love
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Now what I pointed out in my last segment is I don't read anywhere that we were chosen to be in Christ He says we are chosen in Christ and what
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I would understand that to mean I don't know if dr. White agrees with this or not But I believe that Christ in Paul's theology is a corporate entity
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Head and body that the church and the head are Christ so Paul says in 1st
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Corinthians and it seems to be his theology in general so that Christ is a corporate entity just like in the
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Old Testament Israel was a corporate entity and we can say Israel was chosen by God to be holy and blameless
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Also, that would be a fair and true statement We would say Israel was chosen of God to do certain things
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Well, if I was an Israelite then I could say that I was chosen by God in Israel to do those things
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Because not because I was chosen but because Israel was chosen. It's the entity Israel I could be born or never born and Israel would still have that destiny anyone who is in Israel shares that destiny
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In fact, if I was born in Israel I could defect and not be a part of Israel or if I was a Gentile I could become part of Israel by being
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Circumcised and becoming a proselyte the point is being in Israel would be a matter of personal choice
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I can be as in Israel or not But if I am in Israel by whatever means I am chosen as part of Israel for what
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Israel is chosen for That is I share in the corporate election of Israel in the New Testament Christ is the antitype of Israel That's why when
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Hosea said out of Egypt, I've called my son Referring to Israel Matthew applied it to Christ Christ is the antitype of Israel Christ is the corporate chosen
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One as Israel was the corporate chosen one in the Old Testament I am in Christ now
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Paul doesn't tell me how I came to be in Christ or whether I can leave that position He only tells me that if I am in Christ, I stand as one who's chosen in him for what?
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Well, I'm chosen to be blameless. I'm chosen to be holy Well, yeah, that's just like being chosen in Israel for that purpose, but my being those things is still pretty much up to me
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How do I know that? Well because Paul uses the same expression in Colossians chapter 1 and 2023
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Paul said in the body of his flesh through death to present you Holy and blameless the same two words all said were chosen for in Ephesians chapter 1 for he says that God wants to present you
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Holy and blameless and irreproachable in his sight and Paul says if indeed you continue in the faith
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Grounded and steadfast and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard which was preached, etc
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So he says, okay We are called to be holy and blameless and and God will present us to himself
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Holy and blameless if we don't depart from the faith if we aren't moved away from the hope of the gospel So Paul makes it very clear that his theology is that there are people who are called to be holy and blameless
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But they're fulfilling that calling will depend on they're not falling away on their continuing in the faith
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And that agrees perfectly well with what I understand Paul's meaning of Ephesians chapter 1 to be I am in Christ Christ is a corporate entity all who are in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless
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This is according to God's purpose. What what purpose the purpose that all who are in Christ should be holy and blameless
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That's his purpose. It's his good pleasure that this would be the case Paul doesn't tell us anything about whether an individual person has been chosen to be in Christ He's only told us what those in Christ are chosen for in him
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And so again, I don't see a Calvinist proof text here and now in Romans chapter 8 28 through 30.
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I will say this dr White I have said many times to my listeners I consider this passage in Romans 8 to be a very strong Calvinistic proof text
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If it was the only thing we had on the subject, I would always almost be compelled to be a Calvinist I'll go ahead and tell you that and I'm not ashamed to do so it of course is not the only thing that Paul or the
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Bible says on this subject and While I know that dr White does not prefer to bring other scriptures in from outside to help, you know modify scriptures that need to be modified
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I want to say that there is a harmonic principle and that is this if you find a statement in the
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Bible about a subject That has no qualifications and no conditions attached But you find other statements in Scripture that upon the same subject that do attach qualifications and do put conditions upon it
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I believe the correct hermeneutic is to interpret the less full statement by the more full statement
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That is if one passage tells us there are conditions Another mentions the same subject without mentioning the conditions
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I believe the conditions from the one passage need to be understood in the passage that doesn't mention them
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So that when in Mark's gospel Jesus said if a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery
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Jesus states no conditions or no qualifications the same parallel statement in Matthew 19 9 says if a man divorces wife other than for the cause of fornication and marries another he commits adultery
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So we would say at least I would I don't know what dr White would do but I would say the passage that contains the qualification is
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Useful for giving more understanding of the passage that doesn't mention the qualification It's similar when
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Mark's gospel tells us Jesus says an evil adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given to this generation
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There's no qualification mentioned. However in Matthew There are qualifications mentioned of the same statement the parallel statement says no sign will be given to this generation except The sign of the
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Prophet Jonah, so we have two passages one gives no qualification one gives qualification And we recognize that the one that gives the qualification is a controlling passage for understanding the one that does not at least
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That's how I would do hermeneutics in general. I would do the same thing with reference to salvation Certainly there are promises that we will be kept and all of those things, but also there are statements in Scripture That's not every statement on the subject, but some of the statements scripture say if you continue
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If you don't defect if you abide in me and So I personally believe that all the statements about salvation need to be understood in terms of the passages that do state the conditions
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Otherwise we have a strange hermeneutic. We have to say that the statements that don't have conditions mentioned are
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Absolutely true and the ones that do state conditions are simply false And I don't believe that that's how we do hermeneutics generally speaking
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So I would say that Paul says in general those who are called You know are justified and those who are justified are glorified fine
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And no one can separate us Paul only mentions external factors things that he mentions cannot separate us from the love of God He does not say anything about our choices in the matter, which
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I think dr. White would be glad to point out But what needs to be understood is there are places in the Bible that do speak of our choices and these
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I think Paul expects Us to understand as qualifiers to statements where he doesn't always state the qualifications
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He does state qualifications for example in Romans 11. He said if we don't continue in God's goodness We'll be cut off like the
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Jews were well unfortunately We're out of time I hear the music and I'm gonna have to quit and and I'm I apologize that dr.
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White didn't get a chance to Respond to my statements, but we do have three more days of this and dr.
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