Am I Truly Saved? Part II

Assurance of Salvation and the Corinthian Church

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I am your host John Harris for part two of an interview that I did with Pastor Joel Webben on the topic of assurance of salvation. We were talking about this book, Am I Truly Saved? A Study Through First John by Pastor Joel Webben and it's a great book.

I would suggest getting it. Go to the info section if you are interested and you can find a link there where you can purchase a copy. After we turned off the camera and stopped recording, Pastor Joel and I were talking a little bit about some things we didn't bring up in the interview that I wanted to just mention to you and they're important things I think to realize when we talk about this subject of assurance.

The Corinthian church, Pastor Joel brought this up to me and it's a great point. The Corinthian church was a church that had messed a lot of things up. In fact, if you were to point to any church in the New Testament and say, well that's a church that's off the rails, you'd probably say or most likely say the church at Corinth.

In 1 Corinthians, we see Paul treating the church at Corinth as if they are a church, as if they're Christians, they're believers, yet they're milky. They have problems. They have sin issues. I mean, they even had problems, I mean, think about this, going to the temple prostitutes as was their previous habit when they were pagans and they're still doing that, at least some of them, and Paul is correcting them.

He has a sharp edge to the correction that he brings, but yet at the same time, he's not saying, well, you just must not be saved. And I think that's an important thing to remember and as I think through the process of church discipline outlined in Matthew 18, the whole entire process is designed to bring about repentance among true believers and if someone is not a true believer, they won't repent.

They'll be confronted with their sin and somewhere along the line, it'll become clear that they're not interested in repentance and that's when you treat that person like a Gentile and tax gatherer as the text says.

And so, yes, there are people in churches who do not know Christ, who aren't of his and in the visible church, there are people who attend weekly services, that's what I'm saying, who may be in that category and that's certainly possible and you're going to know those things by fruit.

That's what we learn in 1 John. But at the same time, you can have people who are participating or have participated in sin and for ignorant reasons, because they're not fully sanctified, the side of heaven, and yet there's a fruit there and that fruit is the fruit of repentance.

When they come to a conviction of their sin and sometimes that takes someone confronting them. And so, I want to just be clear on how we're communicating this because we want our communication to be in line with what the Word of God teaches and I think it is in this podcast, but I wanted to just mention that at the outset.

These are some scenarios you see in scripture of people who had sin issues. I mean, we could talk about King David perhaps as well, people who had sin issues and yet they're part of the body of Christ.

They're actually true Christians, they're true believers and part of that is proven by the fact that they have repented of their sins, that when they are confronted in their sins as 1 John says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

What a precious promise. So, we're going to continue today. I'm going to jump right into it with part two of my interview with Pastor Joel Webman on Am I Truly Saved? Hope this is helpful for all of you.

God bless. Yeah, the effect of your preaching is that all the Christians that you're preaching to in a church all of a sudden are all doubting their salvation. There's probably a problem there because, and this is one of the common things I've heard and this was me in my teens.

It was like, I want Jesus, I desire Jesus, I love Jesus. That's how I feel about it and I just don't know if I'm his. Do the non-Christians out there, do they say that? Do they think that? Like, man, I just really want Jesus, but like, man, it's too bad that he didn't choose me or too bad I did that sin that disqualified me from being his child because I really like the guy and I really want to be close to him as part of his family.

That very desire alone right there and that hatred for sin, the realization of its death, the kiss of death that rests upon it, that's a sign that you're part of the body of Christ in my mind. That's a good encouraging thing.

You want Jesus. Wow. That's not anyone else in the world. No one else wants Jesus. You want Jesus?

Like the real Jesus. That's part of what Jesus says when the disciples of John the Baptist come and ask him, are you the Messiah? Are you the Christ? The one that we've been waiting for? He quotes Isaiah, but he ties it up with a nice little bow at the end, blessed is the one who is not offended by me.

Because John, your ministry and mine, and so this might sound, so I'll just admit the elephant in the room because somebody might be listening to us right now and say, this sounds a bit hypocritical for guys who often do full length episodes on false teachers or people in the gospel coalition, people in the SBC who you guys are saying, I don't think that they're Christians, and then here you are over here trying to assure us saying that it's not the size of your faith, but the object of your faith that saves, and those like, well, okay, but it seems like you're inconsistently applying these things.

Well, this is what I would say. I don't think it's hypocrisy and I don't think it's inconsistency. What John is saying, what I'm saying is just a little bit of love for Jesus. I really hope that I'm his, those kinds of statements that you just made.

Here's the key difference. I really hope that I'm his. Okay. Who is his? Jesus. Okay. Here's the very next question. Which Jesus? Which one? The Jesus of the Bible. And that's why the first test is the doctrinal test, the truth test, right?

There's the relational test, the test of unity, love for the brethren, and a love that's not just a theoretical love, right? Like a Democrat's love, right? Their love is I'll vote in such a way that forces conservatives to tangibly love the poor, right?

So I'll vote. I won't actually love them. I won't actually care for them. But I will ensure with my vote that the government at the point of a gun forces someone else to love the poor, right? Because that's what James says, right?

Don't just wish someone well, you know, but actually clothe them and feed them, right? So tangible. So there's the unity test of love, the test of love, and what John says again and again with this test of love is he says that biblical love is tangible love.

Biblical love isn't just well wishes, right? That's AOC's love, right? So she's not a Christian. No, biblical love is tangible love. It actually has hands and feet. So there's a love test, the test of unity, love for the brothers, and it focuses for the record, it always starts with the household of faith, right?

So Galatians 6, the apostle Paul says as often as you have opportunity, do good to all, but especially that is prioritize the household of faith. First Timothy five, Paul gives a list of criteria for the poor.

He says, if we're going to help the poor, because Christ is infinite, but the church is finite here on earth and its resources. So we have to prioritize the poor. Jesus himself said, you will always have the poor among you.

You're always going to have the poor because not because God created the world in such a way that there aren't enough resources. But the reason we'll always have the poor is because you'll always have sin.

You'll always have the poor because you always have sin. And for the record, it doesn't mean that every poor person is poor because of their sin. Just like the man born blind, the disciples say whose sin made him blind, his or his parents?

Jesus says neither. But the reality is it was sin. It was sin that made him blind. It wasn't his directly, it wasn't his parents directly. But if Adam had never sinned, then there would be no blindness, there would be no sickness.

Likewise, poverty is always the result of sin, either the individual themselves, laziness, right? Or it can be, you know, there are a lot of people who are poor in China, and it's not because they're lazy, it's because of the sin of corrupt governments.

But the point is this, there's always going to be poor people until Jesus returns, because there's always going to be sin. Now, John, you know this, I'm post-millennial, so I think things are going to get better.

But even then, even with the, you know, the Puritan hope, you know, and the nations being Christianized, not universalism, not everybody regenerate, but Christianized in a Christian worldview, and that being adopted by civil governments and legislating according to God's law, all those things, you're still going to have sin, you're still going to have poverty.

And so my point is, what real love does, is it actually clothes those who are naked, it actually feeds those who are hungry. And we begin with the household of faith, right? We prioritize our brothers.

So it's real tangible love. And then the last one is obedience to Christ's commandments, obedience to the law. So we have the truth test doctrine. We have the love test or unity test, which is love for the brothers.

And then we have the obedience test. Are we obeying God's commandments? And I will look to Christ's two commandments, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself, and then seeing those exposited in the 10 commandments.

The first table of the law, the first four commandments in Exodus 20, this is how to love the Lord your God. And the next six, this is how to love your neighbor as yourself. So am I obeying God's commandments?

That's a sign. Am I loving my brother in real tangible ways and not just wishing him well, not just theoretically or protesting that someone should love my brother? No. Are you loving your brother? And are you loving not just your neighbor, but are you loving your brother for the very reason that he is a brother?

Anyone who gives a cup of cold water in my name or whatever you do for the least of these my brothers, because they are my brothers, or visiting the one who's in prison, what's contained in that, in the words of Jesus, what he's getting at is not just visiting the person on death row who's actually a serial killer and a pagan, but actually visiting those who have been imprisoned because of righteousness sake, who are being persecuted because they're brothers and sisters in Christ.

But all that, the last thing I'll say, all that back to the first test, my point is God has mercifully and providentially set up the Christian life in such a way that they're just like physical birth, you're born, right?

So regeneration, spiritual birth, John chapter three, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, you must be born again, spiritually reborn. Well, just like physical birth, you are born and immediately there are vital signs, immediately.

And the immediate vital signs are like breathing, pulse, those kinds of things. Well, likewise, with the spiritual birth, God has designed it in such a way that there are immediately vital signs. When someone is born again, they're just now converted, they don't have a long extended trajectory of sanctification and following Christ where they can point to all these ways that they've loved the brothers and visited those in jail who have been wrongfully imprisoned and persecuted for their preaching of the gospel.

They can't point to all those. They can't point to 20 years of obeying the Ten Commandments and all, you know, they got saved five minutes ago. But you know what? The first vital sign, the doctrinal test, the truth test, have they made a biblical confession?

What's the first thing that we do in conversion, in salvation? If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. And that confession, it's funny, your confession is not the gospel.

Again, anything that has to do with you and what you're doing is not the gospel. Good rule of thumb. The gospel is what Jesus did. It is the person and work of Jesus, who Jesus is and what he has done.

His life, his death, his resurrection, and his ascension. That's the gospel. So even your profession is not the gospel. I would say that a profession of Christ is actually the first work of sanctification that gives us assurance of justification, which comes by believing the gospel.

So immediately there's a vital sign. Right after the new birth, you're given a new heart and the gifts of faith and repentance. And the first thing that you do in obedience to Christ is you profess that he is Lord.

You profess that he is the Christ. You profess that he is your savior. And so immediately, right off the bat, in the mercy and providence of God, in the way that he has designed this lifelong process of sanctification, God has ensured that there would immediately, upon conversion, upon justification, there would immediately be one of the greatest signs, vital signs of sanctification to assure us of our justification.

And that's an amazing thing. And then following that, baptism. Following that, or I would say conjoined with baptism, is belonging and membership in a local gospel preaching church, law and gospel preaching church, Bible preaching church.

Immediately following that, you're being given every single week a renewing sign of assurance because it is a covenantal sign. It's reminding you that you're in covenant with the Lord, that you're in relationship with the Lord, that you are in Christ, in the beloved, that you are his body, and that all the blessings of the Father are poured upon the head, just like Aaron, the oil poured upon the head, and it drips down to the body.

All the blessings of God the Father given to the Son, who is the head of the church, trickling down to his body. And you're being reminded of that every single week as you're partaking of the Lord's supper.

The renewal oath sign. So baptism, the initiating oath sign, where the one joins the many with a public profession of faith, and then the Lord's supper is the renewing oath sign. And I do believe that it should be weekly.

I'm not saying that those churches that don't take it weekly are in sin, but I think ideally it should be a weekly practice. And so we're renewing our covenant. It's like renewing your marriage vows. Baptism is the wedding.

And then as Christians, we renew our wedding vows every single week when we feast from the Lord's table, when we dine with the Lord. And so my point is, God has built into the fabric of the visible church in the way that we should do church.

And in the Christian life, he has built in vital signs, proofs, evidences of assurance of salvation, that justification did in fact take place. God has built these in, and he hasn't just built them in at the end of the process of sanctification, once we've been following Jesus for 20 years.

He has front-loaded them. He's front-loaded them at the very beginning. Profession, baptism, church membership, Lord's supper, like right away, so that the new babe in Christ would begin their life from a position of confidence, not a position of uncertainty.

And so all that back to the, well, what about the apostate? What about the guy in the gospel coalition peddling social justice and saying that the social justice is the gospel, right, or a part of the gospel?

Well, that would be a heresy. That would be an absolute heresy. And some of these guys, I actually do believe, not all necessarily, but I do believe some of these guys are not actually Christians. And here's the deal, right?

John said, well, if there's just a little, I love him or I want to be his, here's the deal. It's not just any old profession. It's not a generic profession. It's not a general profession. It's a biblical profession.

And a biblical profession professes not just Jesus, author of Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice, or Jesus, social justice warrior, Jesus, the great socialist of our time, Jesus, the Marxist, Jesus. No, it's the Jesus of the Bible.

So one of the best ways to be assured, yes, we want to have actions of obedience to his commandments. Yes, we want to have love in real, tangible, physical ways for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

But also, one of the ways to be assured is to grow in doctrine. Find out what the Bible actually says about Jesus. Make sure that the Jesus you know, right, the heart cannot love what the mind does not know.

So make sure with your mind, love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind. So study the scripture, listen to faithful preachers, listen to guys like John in Conversations that Matters, read his book, Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict, and find out who is the real Jesus.

And then upon knowing who Jesus actually is, then can you say, yeah, I love him. I love him. This is who he actually is. He hates unequal measures. He hates bribes. He hates, he commands me not to pity the rich and not to pity the poor.

You know, so this is who Jesus is.

Assurance, the True Jesus, and the Difference Between Faith and Presumption

Yeah, that's very good. And I think in addition to that, the difference in my mind is someone who's struggling with their salvation and saying, I want Jesus, and I'm just afraid that I'm not his. They have the right Jesus in their mind.

They do have a love, even if it's a small kindling spark, you know, that could die in their mind any moment, but it's there. There's a flame. The heretic is someone who says, like the Pharisee, oh, I'm good.

I'm not struggling with those things. I'm confident, but my confidence isn't rooted in the finished work of Christ. My confidence is instead rooted in what I did. There's a cause for boasting, right? There's some reason that I can go to other Christians and say, well, you're not an authentic Christian because you don't have what I have.

And what I have is my works over here. That's so the basis upon which assurance is built is such an important part of this. So that's the false gospel. If you think and you're saving yourself or contributing to that.

And that's what so much of what I think I and you have criticized in some of the leaders out there that is rooted in is like, wow, that person, either they have wronged Jesus or they are trusting in themselves in part instead of in Jesus to save them.

And that's not a salvation that can actually save them. So right.

I agree. I think part of the problem, though, is so this is part of the difficulty of First John at all the signs, the test that he points towards our works. Right. But the question is, is it is it me working for salvation or are these are these works evidences of salvation?

And is it Christ's work through me, right? Like the apostle, I worked harder than all the apostles, right? Least of the apostles, because I persecute the church, yet I worked harder than all of yet. Not I, but but Christ in me, you know, or work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Right. But we got to finish the very next thing is it. But it is he knowing that it's he who wills and works in and through us that which is good and pleasing in his sight. And so so the point is, there is a sense and I wrestle with that because it does sound a little workspace.

It sounds a little sketchy, but but that's what, you know, John gets at again and again. And First John is by this, you know, well, here's Jesus himself by this. All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another.

There are real tangible works, even our profession. Like I said earlier, I believe that that is work, but but it's a work of God through us. There's a difference in our works versus God working through us.

Our love for the brothers. That's a work of God through us. Our obedience to Christ commands. That's a work of God through us. We're not saying look at what I've done as a basis, a fleshly confidence.

Look at what I've done.

It's not a basis that's looking to the problem. Yeah, right.

We are. Well, my point, we are looking to fruit of sanctification. I think the fruit of sanctification, according to scripture, I believe the fruit of sanctification is one of the clear signs of justification.

The distinction is knowing that the fruit of sanctification is God's work through us and not work of our own. I think I think that's the clear. And this is what's hard, right? So one of the criticisms of the Puritans is too much introspection, right?

So there's there is a balance between navel gazing because because what John does in his epistle is he is calling the reader. He's calling his audience again and again to look at themselves. He is. He's saying, examine yourself, right?

It's a self-examination. Examine yourself. Are you loving? Are you believing? Are you professing? Are you obeying? He's calling them to look at themselves, but but not to see what they've done in their own strength, but to look at themselves and to view themselves as God's workmanship, as God's building structure or like the Apostle Paul said, you know, like you're our field, you're our harvest, right?

You you are our work. You are our sign. And so looking at our lives and looking for actual tangible sanctification, but recognizing that it's the work of God, that Christ's work through me is one of the clearest signs of Christ's work for me actually being for me.

Yeah, no, I completely agree with all that. I think that the distinction is so if I could use another example of a person, if you have the Pharisee over here who's saying it's it's on the basis of these works or in part, I'm help, you know, my gospel is part of that is some works that are thrown in there.

That's that's what's saving me or that's on the basis of this. I'm saved and I'm an authentic Christian. And it's the humble Christian who knows God who looks at those same. Well, not the same works, but similar looking works at least.

And they're authentic works motivated by Jesus and says, praise God. Look what he's done in me. I can't boast in any of this. There's nothing I contribute. If I if, you know, that diagnostic question, why should I let you into heaven?

I'm not going to start pulling out all my works. I'm going to say it's on the basis of his work. And my works are just all they are is an evidence. It's fruit of a work that he started in me and not not the root of it.

It's not the basis for it. So that's the difference between a Pharisee and the humble sinner who's beating his chest saying, Lord, I'm not worthy. And in the Sermon on the Mount about that, you know, the beginning is blessed are the meek, blessed are the poor in spirit.

They have nothing to offer God. They're going to inherit the kingdom of heaven. And then, by the way, look at the standard I have that you Pharisees haven't met. So I don't care how much social justice stuff you've done.

You're not in because you're not trusting in me. You're trusting in yourself as the basis for justification. That's right. So I would say, yeah, exactly.

I agree. I just say it's two things. One, the Pharisee is saying, look at my works, and that's the basis for my salvation versus the Christian is saying, look at God's work through me. That's an evidence or a sign, a result of salvation.

Right. So the Pharisee is saying, look at my work as the basis for my salvation. Exactly what you said. Whereas the Christian is saying, look at God's work through me in sanctification as a sign of justification.

But also, it's not just the way that you're interpreting the works, but it's also the works themselves. Because one of the things that Jesus says again and again in the Sermon on the Mount, you have heard it was said.

You have heard it was said. You have heard one of the things that Jesus is doing is he's showing how not only are the Pharisees hypocrites because they well, it's just that the word hypocrite. He doesn't just say that the problem with the Pharisees, Jesus doesn't indict.

I'll say it like this. He doesn't merely indict the Pharisees on the basis of hypocrisy or arrogance. He doesn't just say the bad thing about the Pharisees is that they're arrogant about their good deeds.

Right. So he doesn't just indict them, accuse them of arrogance. The Pharisees do a lot of good deeds, but they're prideful about it. No, he doesn't just call them proud. He calls them hypocrites. Right.

So what Jesus is getting at is he's saying they're not even doing the deeds they don't actually. So it's not just they don't have fruit. They don't have actual. Exactly. They don't actually have fruit.

So I think we have to properly understand the Pharisees. It's not just that they have fruit, but they take credit for it. And therefore their pride exempts them from the kingdom of God. No, it's they boast of fruit, but they are barren fields.

They boast of, you know what I mean? But they don't actually have what they do. He says, you put all this pressure and restraints upon people, but you won't even lift it with a little finger. You don't do the things that you're demanding that everybody else does.

And so the Pharisees, the big sin of the Pharisees, more than their pride that Jesus indicts, the number one sin he indicts is hypocrisy. And that right there should tell us the mere fact that Jesus says, you hypocrites, tells us that the Pharisees, they're not walking the talk.

They talk a big game, right? They've got a lot of bark, but no bite. They don't actually. So it's not just that they are prideful about their works. They are actually work less. They do certain things, but it's all for the approval of men.

And as soon as they're behind closed doors, the works go away. They live lives of luxury. They're fat and indulgent and cruel. And they don't love the brothers. They don't love the brothers. They're not clothing the poor.

They're expecting everyone else to give to the temple so that they can profit off of it. But they're not actually like the woman who gives the two mites worth one penny, right? And I think you would agree with this, John.

I think I've heard you say it, but we always look at that and say, oh, look, Jesus, he's basically commending when Christians give all that they have. Whereas I think that that is Jesus, this picture, Jesus is drawing the disciples attention to he says she gave more than all the rest because she gave all she had to live on.

I don't think Jesus is saying and therefore emulate her. She's the example of what it looks like to sacrificially give. And this is the standard for all Christians to give everything they have. Now, I think Jesus is drawing the disciples attention, saying she gave all that she had and saying she gave more than all the rest.

He again is I think his point is not saying everyone should give all they have. No, I think he's saying, look at those hypocrites, the Pharisees. She actually gave more than them. They came in sounding trumpets, you know, carrying their offering, you know, and with a parade and robes and tassels and laid it on the altar.

And she comes in ashamed. No one sees puts two small little coins in there. But but she actually gave more. And I think if Jesus, if the disciples had pressed him and said, and is that right? Should we all do that?

I think Jesus would say no. So Jesus condemns that later on, which says the Pharisees are actually causing people to give away money at the expense of caring for their aging parents and honoring their father and mother.

Right now, that's good. So if you had a Pharisee in your office and said and you versus someone who, let's say, is struggling with their salvation, but is humble about it, but you have a Pharisee there, you would pull out these tests and they would fail them.

That's that when you start drilling down, you get to the heart of the matter. Like, hey, wait a minute. Like, you don't have any evidence to actually point to here. It's all fake fruit. It's all all the, you know, hustle and it's all this this this show that you're putting on, but none of it is actually legitimate.

And that you would and that would condemn them. Whereas the humble person who comes in and says, I'm struggling with this. You can and you find actual fruits like, well, you know who Jesus is. You love him.

You look at the love you have for your brothers. I know it could be better because it could be better for all of us. But you're you're finding actual fruit there. That's the difference. That's right.

So exactly. So the baby infant believer wrestling with assurance has they may have small fruit. They may have some fruit, but they have real fruit in closing. I want to see you go. You look at his field from a mile away and it looks like a harvest, but then you walk up into it and it's it's paper mache.

It's not it's not real. You know, so I wanted to get your take on passage real quick. Just Hebrews 10. And there's a lot of these passages that it almost reminds me of some of the things in first John.

But it sounds like super harsh to someone. I think if you just take it out of context. So it's first 19 or no verse 26 says for if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

And so this is something that I've seen people take and be like, well, I sin willfully game over. I guess, you know, I thought I was saved. But now I did a willful sin. Is that what Hebrews 10 is saying?

I mean, is it can someone be saved or can someone think they're saved? And then all of a sudden, you know, one sin that they like, well, he chose to do it. Therefore, they're out because we would all be out in my mind, if that is really what it's saying.

Absolutely. Yeah, you cannot read.

So Hebrews 6 would be another one. Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10. You cannot read these texts that talk about apostasy. So these are texts that talk about not just the pagan, but these do mention the apostate.

So somebody who is a part of the visible church, but who is not a part of the invisible church, who's not truly born again. And so, you know, the Presbyterian is going to look at these and say, you know, well, but they're part of the new covenant.

Therefore, there are stricter curses, right? Blessings and curses for those who are part of the new covenant, that they have the external blessings of the new covenant, but they don't actually, you know, lay hold of the internal blessings of spiritual eternal blessings through faith.

So they would use their new covenant theology, you know, so they have, you know, circles like the wider circle is a new covenant. And then within that would be, you know, the decretal elect, you know, and those who are not just in the new covenant, but those who are actually born again.

We do the same thing as Baptist, but we're not going to use it. We're going to say the new covenant is reserved because the door to the new covenant is faith, genuine faith. And so we would say the new covenant, every person who has ever been under the new covenant will be in heaven.

That's the Baptist position. That's what makes the new covenant better. The new covenant is not just a wider in its scope than the old covenant, but it's deeper in its promises. It's not just a bigger covenant.

It's a better covenant. It's founded upon better promises. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant by his blood. And I would say as a Calvinist, not a single drop of Christ's blood will ever be found in hell.

I would also say that the prayers of Christ are always efficacious, right? He specifically says in John 17, right before his arrest, I do not pray for the world because Jesus isn't going to pray for people that he's not going to also die for.

Jesus, you know, why would Jesus die for the world if he wouldn't even bother praying for all the world? So Jesus prays for his own and for those that he will give him. And at the right hand of the father, he is interceding on behalf of all his people, praying his high priestly prayers of intercession.

And I would say his prayers are efficacious, just as the blood of Jesus does not fail. The prayers of Jesus do not fail. And Jesus says, who's the target of his prayers? And the new covenant people, those in the new covenant and who is he mediating this covenant, all the new covenant people, he's meeting the covenant and he's doing it by his blood.

So we would say as Baptists, we say the new covenant is the elect, is the elect. They're one and the same. These are synonymous. However, there is a wider circle, which is the visible church. You can be a part of the visible church without being a part of the new covenant.

Presbyterian is going to say the new covenant is the visible church. And then there's this smaller circle within. So I say that just to say Baptists and Presbyterians, we both have two circles, a wider circle and a smaller circle.

We just have different language. We would say that it's the visible church as Baptists, visible church, and then there is the invisible church, which is synonymous with the new covenant. And then Presbyterians would say visible church is the visible church is synonymous with the new covenant.

And then this smaller invisible church is the decretal elect. And so we would differ on that. And with that, therefore, we would differ on who and when receives the signs and seals of baptism, the Lord's Supper.

All that being said, both Presbyterian and Baptist, the principle is still the same with Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, that these are apostate passages, apostate passages. And again, I don't believe this is speaking to the majority of the visible church.