The Fall of a Leader: Lessons from Steve Lawson’s Departure

Opening Remarks and the Steve Lawson Story

Hey everyone, we're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. The reason I didn't start at 4 p .m. On the nose is I'm waiting for the article from true scripts that I just wrote it. Actually, I just got a message right now from the editor that it's up.

So I was waiting for it to go up and So I just told the person editing it. I said I'm gonna go Live and I'll get to it in five minutes. So hopefully it's up by then, but it looks like it's up. So we'll get into that.

Of course the topic for today is not what I was going to talk about. I wanted to do a news roundup and I have a number of stories and Articles to share with you, but I think what happened yesterday With Steve Lawson at least what was revealed yesterday about Steve Lawson should be talked about and this wasn't a Decision I made initially when Hearing about it.

This was something I came to as the day progressed and I started watching people's reactions to it particularly People that I am close to people. I know friends people who were impacted by Steve Lawson's ministry and It tore me up a little some of the reactions it made me sad.

It also I think revealed something to me and that's That's gonna be the focus today. That's what I want to to address. And so even as you're coming into stream, I see a lot of people are coming into the stream now.

You can pray for me that I would navigate this In a way that glorifies God and that is helpful to you. I want it to be spiritually encouraging. But I also have some things to say that may be hard, especially if you are someone who really admired Steve Lawson.

So we'll see. We'll see where this goes, but I'm gonna read for you an article that I wrote and Then we're gonna talk about it. That's really the format of the podcast today. I do have one announcement.

I Oh, man, so I just distracted. I'm seeing the comments come in. Natalie Roman says I am crushed. I'm so sorry Natalie. And I'm just you know, my heart's broken about this whole thing to this. This does unspeakable damage.

We'll get to it though. I needed to make this announcement. If you want to come to the men's conference in Speculator, New York next week. This is your last chance. In other words, I can't amend who's coming and who's not coming past.

I think at the very latest maybe Sunday, but really tonight's the cutoff. So if you want to go to fundamentals conference calm. That's where you can sign up and we got some some great speakers. Some and and one of the things maybe this is gonna be related somewhat to what we're gonna talk about today.

Some people have noticed I do this but one of the things you'll notice with any of the events that I plan is I tend to have guys that you probably haven't heard of and Maybe some people think well, he can't get big guys.

It's not not entirely accurate. Maybe maybe some of them wouldn't want to come to a conference. I'm at I don't know, but I don't ask them. I really don't I I've gotten close and I don't think it's wrong to ask someone with a big platform, but There's a reason I have the guys come that I have come.

In fact, I just sent a message Earlier this week to Danny Steinmeier who's a pastor in Idaho. You probably never heard of him. He's written for true scripts. I'm really good articles but I said I would love you and your father because his father is the Minister of Music at their church and Just I think it has done some of the most phenomenal teaching on music in the church.

And I said, could you guys both come next year when we do it again? The reason I do that is because These are guys I really respect. These are guys that That I get to see on a personal level too. I get to see them with their families in their homes.

They open up their homes. These these are people that well I could go on but the It's the quality that I'm after and that's what you can expect at fundamentals conference next weekend. So, please if you're a guy you don't want to miss it.

Come on out if you're able to. I know it's a it's a far drive for some of you or a flight some people are coming from as far away as like Florida California, I mean people come from distances to come to this men's retreat, but it's really good we got Richard Vargas as the headliner and He is the Executive director of the IFC a international and we're gonna talk about some history.

But also some theology and it's gonna be a really encouraging time. All right enough of that. Let's talk about the story at hand, which is Steve Lawson being let go from every ministry. He's been associated with and in fact, I just noticed as the program was starting That one passion ministries because they hadn't made an announcement yesterday.

That's his ministry. But they have at this point and so I'll just show you on the screen here. What one passion ministry says if any link that goes to one passion ministries is going to get this statement?

It says with the board of one passion ministries mournfully announces that just recently Stephen J Lawson confessed to the board that he has had an inappropriate relationship with a woman a Sin that has disqualified him from ministry in response Steve has resigned from all his duties at one passion ministries all Scheduled events and engagements have been canceled.

Steve has confessed and regrets the damage He has caused to his family the church the reputation of one passion ministries and most of all Jesus Christ. We are saddened for the glory of Christ in this manner.

The truth of the gospel will continue to go out to the lost world as it is empowered by the Holy Spirit and not by men, it is a reminder that we have been warned of the craftiness of the enemy and They quote first Peter 5 which says be sober minded be watchful your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour.

If you are a current supporter of the ministry and as it gives instructions, I guess if you want to stop giving. So this just I guess hot off the press similar to the statement that we saw At his church and and then I noticed yesterday that it had already I think before the statement even dropped masters seminary and Ligonier ministries did not have any of the Steve Lawson content anymore, which is a lot of content so they had to there had to be some forewarning I supposed to like get all of that stuff off, but but finally one passion ministries Steve Lawson's personal ministry has made this announcement and People seem some people seem curious about the nature of this relationship and I'd see actually some people trying to defend Steve Lawson that this is vague enough that maybe it wasn't a sin.

Maybe we don't know Really what's going on? Someone asked me a personal friend of mine. Hey, do you have any inside scoop? And I don't on side there's people I know connected to Steve Lawson, but But as far as the nature of this particular relationship, I don't have any Information that you don't have I have nothing to shine on that but but a friend did ask me do you know if it was just a a an emotional thing I Think with the hope that maybe this just wasn't physical right and I guess the only thing I'll have to I want to say Is just look at the picture look at what's going on.

Look at what what is not said in these statements and I think that gives you a window into how egregious this probably is. They don't say it but obviously, you know Steve Lawson just confessed they want you to know this just happened.

They didn't know about it, right? So he just confessed to the board that he has had and it was similar phrasing on the church website. So this is this is we don't know if that's like a punctiliar thing like if this is a Momentary action that he just fell or if this is ongoing From the language, but if I were to Parse this in an expository preaching class.

I would say the suggestion here is that this was something that was ongoing That he has had an inappropriate relationship with a woman a singular woman. So this isn't a As far as we know You know multiple women or this isn't a pornographic thing.

This is there. There's a physical woman. It's a woman and it sounds like an ongoing I don't know what period of time but there was a relationship and It was a sinful relationship sinful to the extent that it actually disqualified him from ministry.

It says so If it was an emotional affair it must have been you know one Serious emotional affair, right? So I don't really have anything more to say on that. But this is obviously Completely damaging and and I think the statement is correct that it really does bring Damage and shame to the reputation of Jesus Christ more than anyone else that's the thing that really should break our hearts more than anything and and I'm sad for the people who have been hurt by this but You know I'm even I'm preaching this to myself right now that that should be the driving thing that that bothers us that you have a guy That reached the pinnacle of reformed evangelicalism and was involved in a lot of different things At the very highest levels gained a lot of respect and then to fall in this way.

It's it's different. It's different than we mean we've even had what we had Tony Evans this year. There was another pastor down in Texas I think all these pastors are in Texas. All three of them there.

I can't remember the name of the other guy he wasn't someone I listened to but I think he was he was a Baptist guy if I'm not mistaken had a big mega church anyway. It when when that happens to Tony Evans, right and you're not in Tony Evans is quote-unquote camp.

It's a sad thing, but you're not super Affected by it. In fact, I think for years I've been used to hearing in the reformed evangelical camp that this is the kind of thing that characterizes more charismatics, right?

This is they have loose theology and that that leads to these loose Loose treatments of sin and it's it's it's it's it's it's experience based and not word-based and so that's the difference and that's why there's They have this problem more than we have it and that kind of thing and I don't have a quote for you directly to share With you on that.

I'm just saying it's in the water. I've grown up in that to some extent I've been in those circles that reformed evangelical circles and that there's definitely an attitude that I would say is somewhat cultivated and.

And so when someone falls in the charismatic world, it doesn't really affect there's an explanation already in place in People's minds for why that might be and So it's not because the power of the Holy Spirit isn't there.

It's not because they were You know. It's not like Unique to them. It's because they're part of this broader movement this broader mechanism. That is deficient and that's an explanation and we and it's a comforting thing.

If you think that way because then you can say and we have guardrails in our camp for preventing that kind of thing. Maybe if you will slip through the cracks, but we have guardrails. So, you know, I know how that works, but I think this hits really close to home.

Because you can't use that explanation and it's not someone low on the totem pole this is someone who I was actually just on the phone earlier today with an individual who will just say is Influential and connected and that individual You know Basically now lost my train of thought.

Sorry I'm a little emotional about this whole thing and the comments I'm seeing coming in but Anyway, that that what I was I saying that guy that that person that I talked to earlier today. You know he He was emphasizing to me how There there is a problem in that reformed evangelical world and we can't use the paradigm that I just described to Come console ourselves like there was a problem.

And so I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about that. I don't think the immediate Reaction of we should just all examine ourselves and anyone can fall is wrong. I want to talk about that, but there's more to it and I'm not seeing people Broadly speaking have the self-reflection.

I think we need to have in the case of this so That's the spirit. I'm bringing to this. Thank you for your prayers as we go through some of this stuff. Let's see if the article is On the true script website.

There it is. There it is. All right, so We're gonna just read it and And then we'll talk about it and I will get to your comments as many as I can. I know there's a lot coming in Robert Morris. Thank you I just thought we're gonna shot shit.

Robert Morris was the guy and he was charismatic. He wasn't Baptist. Okay, right? So yeah, it doesn't affect us, right? This does affect us. It didn't affect me as much though, and I'm gonna explain to you why?

Personally it affects me to see that your reactions more than anything else and it you know, the shame that brings to Christ is terrible, but but there's there's something that There's something I guess I saw and a few of my friends saw that.

You know, I don't know I don't know what to make of it exactly like why did how can we notice this and You know, why why did we see something and and others didn't that doesn't mean we're better by the way at all.

Maybe maybe where maybe I'm too critical, right? But there was something I saw that that seems to me to make sense of some of this and I want to share that with You and then broadly speaking, you know What I think is deficient in the reformed evangelical world because I think we have some big big problems that aren't talked about much.

And I'm just gonna talk about them to be honest. I don't I'm just so Like living through the social justice stuff and now seeing the Christian nationalist controversies and all these like I'm just so beyond like trying to Bring people along and really preserve.

I Don't even know what I'm trying to say. Like I it's not it's not a tribe tribe guild. I don't know what word to use but like, you know, I have so much hope I have in the past had so much hope for the reformed evangelical world that were remember what I was in seminary.

Let me give an example. Okay, cuz I'm stumbling on my words here. Let me give an example when I was in seminary. I Remember thinking like when Al Mohler finds out what's going on at Southeastern. It's gonna be over and the whole hammer of the reformed evangelical world is gonna come down on this woke stuff.

And we obviously know what happened, right? So I've relived that experience a few times now and so I'm to the point now or I'm just like I don't have any. There's nothing I had to lose there's no sacred cows here.

We're just gonna talk about it. I'm gonna talk about it. Honestly. All right without further ado. Let's read the fall of a leader. Lessons from Steve Lawson's removal. And I wrote this last night. I added a few things today.

But this was last evening editors note the following piece does not necessarily reflect the opinions or stance of truth script or its directors as. This is a developing story and not all the facts have yet come to light.

Probably a wise thing. Yesterday the elders at Trinity Bible Church in Dallas, Texas Announced that their lead preacher Steve Lawson was involved in an inappropriate relationship with a woman. This revelation was serious enough to lead to Lawson's departure from TBC and likely his broader ministry career.

Ligonier ministries where he served as a teaching fellow and the master seminary where he held the position of Dean of demon studies Have removed him from their respective websites. This news has sent shockwaves through the reformed evangelical community.

Particularly among those who have long appreciated the ministries of RC Sproul Ligonier and John MacArthur masters. I've received numerous messages from friends expressing their astonishment with one asking me if it was true.

Sadly it is. The reaction earlier this year when Alistair Begg affirmed his support for attending a same-sex wedding was similar. It raises a troubling question. How can someone who taught the scriptures so effectively find themselves compromised on such?

Fundamental moral issues. We stop right there briefly. That is the question. I think because those formulas that we had for explaining why this stuff happens in other camps they the scripture and Studying it and knowing it and communicating it was supposed to be like the the main and the big barrier, all right, and I think The scripture is important in this regard but I Want you to see by the end of this that there's there's more to it than that.

That's it can't just be that someone's a good expositor and that will necessarily mean. They're virtuous in every sense of the word or they're strong in every sense of the word. I hope to somewhat dispel that notion, but that's the question.

I think running through a lot of people's mind. So the first section in here I titled but for the grace of God and I think this is important. You got to hear this one of the helpful things to remember first and a warning I've noticed coming from wiser men is to consider the deception of sin as a child.

I remember the familiar teaching a lie becomes bigger the longer you tell it all sin is like this James 1 chapter. Chapter 1 verses 14 through 15 says. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

Then when lust has conceived it gives birth to sin and then sin is accomplished. It brings forth death. Sin doesn't begin with the most egregious violations of God's moral order. It often starts with small gradual steps away from his clear teaching.

It is quite literally to miss the mark the arrow may only be an inch off the first time Solomon presented sexual temptation in Proverbs 7 is cunning. Persuasive and flattering it does not consider the potential consequences until it is too late.

And for Steve Lawson, it is too late to avoid some serious consequences. But that doesn't mean it's too late for you. If you're struggling with similar temptations. The potential for grievous sin is always close to a heart that thinks too highly of itself.

We must remember the tools God has provided to help us gain victory over temptation no matter what form it takes. Steve Lawson was surrounded by theology adored by fans of expository preaching and stood at the pinnacle of reformed evangelicalism yet in the end his battle is the same every common person faces between his own flesh and His God.

Now before I get to the next section. Which has a lot of I think firecrackers in it. Let me say. One of the reasons I wrote what I just read to you is I do think we need to have a self-reflection but I do see a spirit out there that I completely disagree with that.

Assumes like as a way to explain this just assumes that The godliest person it doesn't matter. You could be like he could be as close to Jesus as possible and In one fail swoop in one instant you just fall to temptation.

And not just temptation, but a very serious disqualifying temptation that you know ruins the rest of your career and brings such shame to Christ and all these things. I Wanted to emphasize that I think there's gradual steps that take place in between that point and you know between being godly, you know and living a Life that Christ is pleased with in that point.

I Don't think it's as simple as you know one day this happened. There were weaknesses beforehand and there are examples in Scripture. In fact, I'm gonna bring up the story of David here in a moment that Addressed this that show where was David?

He was. He wasn't with his army. Why is that right? There was a week. There was a responsibility. He wasn't meeting and it was Circumstances and opportunity and failing to meet an actual duty that Led him into the egregious and he had with Bathsheba.

And so I want to dig into that a bit. So here's the second part courage as a window to character. While recognizing the allure that temptation holds for a prideful heart is important. It doesn't fully address an increasingly common question Why are such scandals occurring more frequently and in seemingly theologically sound circles.

I don't claim to know Steve Lawson's heart or the specifics of his situation, but I can't say I'm astonished. This leads me to wonder why that is if John MacArthur were involved in something like this, I would be shocked.

So why am I not as taken aback when it comes to Steve Lawson? Alistair Begg or others who have succumbed to serious theological errors or moral failures. I From how closely I've observed the social justice moments.

We are movements rather within evangelicalism over the past few years. These movements have repeatedly served as a barometer for individuals courage providing a deep insight into their character. And for those watching this video who don't know the focus of What I've done over the last few years.

I've written Two books on the social justice movement and evangelicalism. I put out I don't even know how many podcasts on this issue. I've spent Thousands and thousands and I mean, I don't even know if you added it all up how many hours studying Evangelicalism and wokeness social justice and.

And so I know I'm pretty familiar with especially in the reformed evangelical world where people have lined up on various questions over the years. Pertaining to this right? So this is what I'm going to talk to you about.

Where did Steve Lawson land and I don't think this is the key to understanding everything about a person at all, but I do think This does give us a window into something right just like David staying home when he should have been on the battlefield gives you a window into Where David's head was at mentally where his spiritual state where it was before the temptation arose with Bathsheba, I think this kind of a thing gives you a an insight into where someone's at mentally when it comes to courage and protecting the church for from some very dangerous threats and I'm not it doesn't do me any Pleasure to say I think Steve Lawson.

I've been candid about this. I actually talked about this on the podcast. You can go back. I did a whole podcast. I don't even know if Steve Lawson's in the title, but But I talked about him quite a bit and the disappointment I have with him.

I Think failing this test. So what am I talking about? Well in the case of Steve Lawson? He would not sign the Dallas statement on social justice. He did not weigh in on social justice at least not publicly to my knowledge so I could be wrong.

But I know like I said, I've looked at this stuff pretty closely. It wasn't until 2022 when he received a question at a Bible study. He expressed his disapproval in a somewhat general way without naming names.

I was encouraged at the time however, a few months later Lawson endorsed Paul David trips book Do you believe and this surprised me especially since it was well known that trip attended Epiphany Fellowship led by the author of woke church reparations advocate Eric Mason.

Trip had also controversially stated in 2018 that he had been complicit in advancing an incomplete gospel because he had preached the gospel of God's Grace for his entire ministry, but left out the gospel of God's justice.

Bill Johnson the CEO of race to you expressed concerns about trips issue during the infamous Shepherds Q &A panel in 2018. Now I Don't think he mentioned trip by name and now I'm wondering is I think Bill Johnson's the CEO.

I use that term I wasn't the true script editors. I'm pretty sure he's a CEO of grace to you. Anyway, I'm like rethinking that is like I know he's he's in charge. Anyway, he was at that panel and He didn't mention the name, but I knew he was talking about he described exactly perfectly This situation in 2018 that had just happened at that point with Paul David trip.

So we're gonna get to see loss and I have to take this aside though. So so trip writes this book do you believe I think was two years ago and in that book he complains about how he's called a Marxist when he addresses racial injustice seeing this response as The symptoms like from Phil Johnson as the symptom of a disconnect between Christians theology of grace and justice in their practical lives.

All right. So so there's a double down in this book. So so he commits these errors. It's it's basically a modern Galatian heresy. It's pretty serious stuff. Phil Johnson even says it's pretty serious stuff at Shepard's Q &A and Then he doubles down.

Paul David trip doubles down on it in this book and guess who endorses the book none other than Steve Lawson. And in fact, it's for the very it's it's for the very wrong reason. It's for that you might try to defend him and say well, maybe there was something else in the book.

But this is what he says. Yet attacking this supposed disconnect is what a lot Lawson endorsed. He set up trips book in this important book. There's a quote Paul trip puts his finger on a live nerve in the body of Christ.

He addresses the dangerous disconnect that often exists between sound doctrine and sound living. Well, there you go. That was that was Paul trips whole point. He's doubling down and he's saying Look, you know these hypocritical these evangelicals who come after me say I'm a Marxist.

Well, they just have a disconnect and then Steve Lawson comes out and says, well, you know I'm gonna endorse this book and Paul Paul trip really gets into the you know, there's other disconnects in the book, too but like that's one of them and.

So so I saw that and I thought what are you thinking? Now for the record, this does not mean that Lawson is woke. It means he unlike John MacArthur failed to protect the sheep Away from wokeness when it mattered and continued to preach alongside people like Lincoln Duncan and Tim Keller.

Without squarely facing the issue and that's true. You know, I did put because I thought people would disbelieve me about Tim Keller, but you can go to the links. So he it's not wrong even to share stages.

I'm just saying he didn't face this issue clearly and then he's giving a very Confusing sound because he's with these guys. He's doing conferences and on stages where these guys are. But he hasn't even weighed in on the issue in a square clear way.

And this is a guy who does no problem weighing in on charismatics talking about Arminians. He'll go after guys who are outside the Reformed Evangelical Guild to some extent and in that theology not just guilt with that theology but on this issue, which I think was much more she is much more serious and Crickets, right.

At key moments like when his influence could have helped the men I knew this is I'm gonna get you. There's a few places in this I give you a little bit of behind the scenes. So this is one at a key moments when his influence could have helped the men I knew who confronted Al Mohler for allowing CRT ideas at Southern Seminary.

He was absent from the battlefield now. I don't know if I've talked about this publicly on the podcast. Probably I have but yeah There was a meeting and I've heard three or four versions of this that all are reconciled with themselves.

This was a few years ago and more than a few now 20. I want to say 2019 2020 but there was there's a bunch of guys as a bunch of them who Confronted who talked to Al Mohler about social justice in a private meeting.

So Steve Lawson was not As far as I know involved in that he at least wasn't present. So is that like a big strike against him? No, I'm just saying there's a pattern here and When we needed him for battle, he was not he wasn't there.

He wasn't a wartime leader in that sense. All right, I know that there's a lot of people streaming right now and there's a lot of comments coming in but I'm gonna keep reading this and We're gonna continue this.

I don't think I've ever had this many streamers. We are climbing and we are We're about to help hit 1200 right now. All right. This may offend some is the title of this subtitle of this section is the illusion of image.

This may offend some but Steve Lawson fit my own personal impression of someone Whose image was made for the upper levels of reformed evangelical conference circuit long before this incident. Some of this comes down to what some may consider petty things, but I don't think there they are taken as a whole.

Expositors on the conference circuit are generally revered for their accurate preaching and professional persona. Lawson presented well with his wardrobe of over folded pocket squares cufflinks signature striped ties and tailored suits.

Now I've been at these conferences. That's how I know because I've I've listened to him. I've I've seen him I've seen I've seen I don't know him well or anything. It's from a distance, but I've seen how he interacts a scene see now he presents.

That's how he dresses. His preaching was technical. Sophisticated sounding and left little room for practical asides. He fit the image of a specialist in handling God's Word. I Almost thought I could see a glow coming from his well-lotioned hands soft from turning pages.

It was not what you would call a wartime leader. He's very clean-cut image signaled. All was well and for these reasons and others relating to my own impression of Lawson's softer mannerisms. And what seemed like overly scripted messages?

I never cared for his preaching. Now I debated whether to to say this and I'm just gonna say it at this point, but there were some things. On a personal level, I'm not gonna share details but that From from people I do trust that led me to think that Lawson had an arrogant streak to him.

It's not I'm very careful with those things. I don't just go trotting those things out there. I don't especially if I'm not a first-hand witness or there's not a primary source I can I can grab that's publicly available, right in this case with everything that's happened and with the The image that I think Lawson exuded that I'm gonna continue to describe to you.

I think it's Beneficial for me to mention in addition to what I'm describing here there were over the years. People who told me stories that I just thought well, that's that's weird. That's it's just odd, you know.

It doesn't this isn't reflective of someone who would be humble in my opinion. I Get it people can say that about anyone people say about me people can say people do say that about John MacArthur. They say it about all kinds of solid people.

That's why I tend to just. These are people I trust though, but but you don't know them because you know, you're you're just listening to me. I'm telling you this though for personal reasons from a personal standpoint.

It's not just that I saw Everything I'm describing there were other things that also seem to confirm that my suspicions were correct. Okay, so nothing personal against you if you want to listen to Steve Lawson, but that's perfectly fine.

Well, not not now I mean before we knew about like like if you Benefited from his preaching and you didn't see the things that I'm saying that's perfectly fine is what I'm trying to say. So that's why I bring that up.

Anyway, Lawson. I say I write was different. He was the kind of expositor. Oh, sorry. I'm skipping over myself. Let me let me go to the previous paragraph. I Was an overproduced quality to Lawson that seemed to conceal who he was.

Something I never wondered about in preachers like John MacArthur or RC Sproul. For example, I knew MacArthur's wife was Patricia. In fact, I know Multiple times MacArthur shared the story of them getting married and dating and I know it very well.

His grandkids distracted him from his work much to his delight. You know, I remember specific stories from John MacArthur talking about is it's weird. Hey, I can't remember what passage he was preaching on but I remember a story about his grandkid and personal stories from his own experience.

His views on politics and other cultural matters flowed naturally from the pulpit. You know and this is where you know during 2020. Especially MacArthur would almost get in trouble because he'd get up there and he had a passage and then he'd be like, you know I'm just gonna talk about.

It'd start you do a political aside for a moment. And I thought it was wonderful to be honest with you. But. But it's unscripted Lawson. I did what was different. Okay. He was the kind of expositor who played well with others on panels.

He spoke from study more than experience. He avoided politics and focused on threats to the reformed evangelical brand like charismatic theology and Arminianism. More than more than general threats facing all American Christians like social justice.

Well Lawson traveled extensively often without his wife and that's a little other peak behind the veil and and I did have a conversation With someone who operates on these levels about that today and He went everywhere and he rarely took his wife with him.

He juggled an impressive array of responsibilities writing books leading one passion ministries with its Center for expository preaching and expositor magazine and Participating in conferences alongside his academic roles at masters and Ligonier.

Lawson's focus allowed him to master the formula Satisfy the expectations of his peers and create the materials that positioned him at the top of his field. Now that I've sufficiently offended all the Steve Lawson fans who genuinely gleaned from his ministry.

Let me also say that Lawson was gifted speaker and most of what I heard him say was true. I do not for a second minimize the way God used him to communicate truth. Neither do I remotely blame anyone for not seeing Lawson from my perspective?

I bring my impressions up now to ask you larger question. Is it possible that even in the most conservative Christian circles? There is a pressure to emphasize image group acceptance in the accolades of a prominent of prominent ministries over virtue.

There's a genuine problem in all managerial institutions today. But I think some Christians tend to believe their organizations aren't affected by these forces. We are accustomed to thinking the larger ministries are more heavily vetted therefore safe than the smaller ones.

I Can tell you in no uncertain terms that all my research on social justice confirms the exact opposite of this and it does. It really does. In fact for the book I have coming out probably around Christmas, hopefully let's hope I have a whole chapter where I talk about this dynamic.

How it was smaller guys with smaller platforms pastors of smaller churches that did far better pastors, especially not hooked into the pipeline not hooked into The the guild that did so much better handling that it was an interesting observation because I know it's not just a social justice that this relates to there's other things that this relates to because.

Why is there less it seemed like there was less theological accountability there was less bravery and virtue there was less ability to defend oneself at the height the higher you got in an organization and I've.

People who know who listen to the podcast know I've. I've been at a number of different Institutions of higher education and I can say that dynamic I think is that each one of the ones I've been to. What explains this.