The Fall of a Leader: Lessons from Steve Lawson’s Departure

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Hey everyone, we're live now on the conversations that matter podcast The reason

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I didn't start at 4 p .m. On the nose is I'm waiting for the article from true scripts that I just wrote it

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Actually, I just got a message right now from the editor that it's up. So I was waiting for it to go up and So I just told the person editing it.

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I said I'm gonna go Live and I'll get to it in five minutes. So hopefully it's up by then, but it looks like it's up So we'll get into that Of course the topic for today is not what

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I was going to talk about I wanted to do a news roundup and I have a number of stories and Articles to share with you, but I think what happened yesterday

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With Steve Lawson at least what was revealed yesterday about Steve Lawson should be talked about and this wasn't a

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Decision I made initially when Hearing about it. This was something I came to as the day progressed and I started watching people's reactions to it particularly

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People that I am close to people. I know friends people who were impacted by Steve Lawson's ministry and It tore me up a little some of the reactions it made me sad

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It also I think revealed something to me and that's That's gonna be the focus today.

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That's what I want to to address And so even as you're coming into stream,

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I see a lot of people are coming into the stream now You can pray for me that I would navigate this

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In a way that glorifies God and that is helpful to you. I want it to be spiritually encouraging

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But I also have some things to say that may be hard, especially if you are someone who really admired

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Steve Lawson So we'll see. We'll see where this goes, but I'm gonna read for you an article that I wrote and Then we're gonna talk about it.

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That's really the format of the podcast today. I do have one announcement I Oh man, so I just distracted.

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I'm seeing the comments come in Natalie Roman says I am crushed. I'm so sorry Natalie And I'm just you know, my heart's broken about this whole thing to that this this does unspeakable damage

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We'll get to it though. I needed to make this announcement If you want to come to the men's conference in Speculator, New York next week.

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This is your last chance In other words, I can't amend who's coming and who's not coming past I think at the very latest maybe

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Sunday, but really tonight's the cutoff So if you want to go to fundamentals conference calm

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That's where you can sign up and we got some some great speakers Some and and one of the things maybe this is gonna be related somewhat to what we're gonna talk about today

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Some people have noticed I do this but one of the things you'll notice with any of the events that I plan is

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I tend to have guys that you probably haven't heard of and Maybe some people think well, he can't get big guys.

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It's not not entirely accurate Maybe maybe some of them wouldn't want to come to a conference. I'm at I don't know, but I don't ask them

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I really don't I I've gotten close and I don't think it's wrong to ask someone with a big platform, but There's a reason

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I have the guys come that I have come. In fact, I just sent a message Earlier this week to Danny Steinmeier who's a pastor in Idaho.

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You probably never heard of him. He's written for true scripts Some really good articles but I said I would love you and your father because his father is the minister of music at their church and Just I think it has done some of the most phenomenal teaching on music in the church

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And I said, could you guys both come next year when we do it again? the reason I do that is because These are guys

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I really respect. These are guys that That I get to see on a personal level too.

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I get to see them with their families in their homes They open up their homes These these are people that well

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I could go on but the It's the quality that I'm after and that's what you can expect at fundamentals conference next weekend

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So please if you're a guy you don't want to miss it Come on out if you're able to I know it's a it's a far drive for some of you or a flight

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Some people are coming from as far away as like Florida, California, I mean people come from distances to come to this men's retreat, but it's really good we got

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Richard Vargas as the headliner and He is the Executive director of the

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IFC a international and we're gonna talk about some history But also some theology and it's gonna be a really encouraging time.

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All right enough of that Let's talk about the story at hand, which is Steve Lawson being let go from every ministry

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He's been associated with and in fact, I just noticed as the program was starting

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That one passion ministries because they hadn't made an announcement yesterday. That's his ministry But they have at this point and so I'll just show you on the screen here

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What one passion ministry says if any link that goes to one passion ministries is going to get this statement?

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It says with the board of one passion ministries mournfully announces that just recently Stephen J Lawson confessed to the board that he has had an inappropriate relationship with a woman a

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Sin that has disqualified him from ministry in response Steve has resigned from all his duties at one passion ministries all

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Scheduled events and engagements have been canceled Steve has confessed and regrets the damage he has caused to his family the church the reputation of one passion ministries and most of all

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Jesus Christ We are saddened for the glory of Christ in this manner The truth of the gospel will continue to go out to the lost world as it is empowered by the

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Holy Spirit and not by men, it is a reminder that we have been warned of the craftiness of the enemy and They quote first Peter 5 which says be sober minded be watchful your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour

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If you are a current supporter of the ministry and as it gives instructions, I guess if you want to stop giving So this just I guess hot off the press similar to the statement that we saw

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At his church and and then I noticed yesterday that it had already I think before the statement even dropped masters seminary and Ligonier ministries did not have any of the

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Steve Lawson content anymore, which is a lot of content so they had to there had to be some forewarning

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I suppose to those like get all of that stuff off, but but finally one passion ministries

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Steve Lawson's personal ministry has made this announcement and People seem some people seem curious about the nature of this relationship and I'd see actually some people trying to defend

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Steve Lawson that this is vague enough that maybe it wasn't a sin. Maybe we don't know Really what's going on?

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Someone asked me a personal friend of mine. Hey, do you have any inside scoop? and I don't on side there's people

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I know connected to Steve Lawson, but But as far as the nature of this particular relationship, I don't have any

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Information that you don't have I have nothing to shine on that but but a friend did ask me do you know if it was just a a an emotional thing

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I think with the hope that maybe this just wasn't physical right and I guess the only thing

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I'll have to I want to say is just look at the picture look at what's going on Look at what what is not said in these statements, and I think that gives you a

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Window into how egregious this probably is They don't say it but obviously

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You know Steve Lawson just confessed they want you to know this just happened. They didn't know about it, right? So he just confessed to the board that he has had and it was similar phrasing on the church website so this is this is a we don't know if that's like a punctiliar thing like if this is a

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Momentary action that he just fell or if this is ongoing From the language, but if I were to Parse this in an expository preaching class.

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I would say the suggestion here is that this was something that was ongoing That he has had an inappropriate relationship with a woman a singular woman.

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So this isn't a As far as we know

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You multiple women or this isn't a pornographic thing This is there. There's a physical woman.

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It's a woman and it sounds like an ongoing I don't know what period of time but there was a relationship and It was a sinful relationship sinful to the extent that it actually disqualified him from ministry.

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It says so If it was an emotional affair it must have been you know one

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Serious emotional affair, right? So I don't really have anything more to say on that. But this is obviously Completely damaging and and I think the statement is correct that it really does bring

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Damage and shame to the reputation of Jesus Christ more than anyone else that's the thing that really should break our hearts more than anything and and I'm sad for the people who have been hurt by this but You know

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I'm even I'm preaching this to myself right now that that should be the driving thing that that bothers us that you have a guy that Reached the pinnacle of reformed evangelicalism and was involved in a lot of different things

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At the very highest levels gained a lot of respect and then to fall in this way. It's it's different It's different than we mean we've even had what we had

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Tony Evans this year. There was another pastor down in, Texas I think all these pastors are in Texas All three of them there.

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I can't remember the name of the other guy. He wasn't someone I listened to but I think he was he was a Baptist guy if I'm not mistaken had a big mega church anyway

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It when when that happens to Tony Evans, right and you're not in Tony Evans's quote -unquote camp

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It's a sad thing, but you're not super Affected by it. In fact,

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I think for years I've been used to hearing in the reformed evangelical camp that this is the kind of thing that characterizes more charismatics, right?

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This is they have loose theology and that that leads to these loose Loose treatments of sin and it's it's it's it's it's it's experience based and not word -based and so that's the difference and that's why there's

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They have this problem more than we have it and that kind of thing and I don't have a quote for you directly to share

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With you on that. I'm just saying it's in the water. I've grown up in that to some extent I've been in those circles that reformed evangelical circles and that there's definitely an attitude that I would say is somewhat cultivated and And so when someone falls in the charismatic world, it doesn't really affect there's an explanation already in place in people's minds for why that might be and So it's not because the power of the

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Holy Spirit isn't there. It's not because they were You know

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It's not like Unique to them. It's because they're part of this broader movement this broader mechanism that is deficient and that's an explanation and we and it's a comforting thing if you think that way because then you can say and we have guardrails

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In our camp for preventing that kind of thing. Maybe if you will slip through the cracks, but we have guardrails

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So, you know, I know how that works, but I think this hits really close to home Because you can't use that explanation and it's not someone low on the totem pole this is someone who

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I was actually just on the phone earlier today with an individual who will just say is

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Influential and Connected and that individual

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You know You're basically now lost my train of thought. Sorry I'm a little emotional about this whole thing and the comments

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I'm seeing coming in but Anyway, that that what I was I saying that guy that that person that I talked to earlier today

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You know he He was emphasizing to me how

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There there is a problem in that reformed evangelical world and we can't use the paradigm that I just described to Come console ourselves like there was a problem.

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And so I'm going to talk to you a little bit about that. I don't think the immediate Reaction of we should just all examine ourselves and anyone can fall is wrong

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I want to talk about that, but there's more to it and I'm not seeing people

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Broadly speaking have the self -reflection. I think we need to have in the case of this so That's the spirit.

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I'm bringing to this. Thank you for your prayers as we go through some of this stuff Let's see if the article is

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On the true script website. There it is. There it is. All right, so We're gonna just read it and And then we'll talk about it and I will get to your comments as many as I can

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I know there's a lot coming in Robert Morris. Thank you I just thought we're not a shot shit. Robert Morris was the guy and he was charismatic.

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He wasn't Baptist. Okay, right? So yeah, it doesn't affect us, right? This does affect us.

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It didn't affect me as much though, and I'm gonna explain to you why? Personally it affects me to see that your reactions more than anything else and it you know, the shame that brings to Christ is terrible but but there's there's something that There's something

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I guess I saw and a few of my friends saw that You know, I don't know I don't know what to make of it exactly like why did how can we notice this and You know, why why did we see something and and others didn't that doesn't mean we're better by the way at all

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Maybe maybe where maybe I'm too critical, right? But there was something I saw that that seems to me that to make sense of some of this and I want to share that With you and then broadly speaking, you know

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What I think is deficient in the reformed evangelical world because I think we have some big big problems that aren't talked about much

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And I'm just gonna talk about them to be honest. I don't I'm just so Like living through the social justice stuff and now seeing the

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Christian nationalist controversies and all these like I'm just so beyond like trying to Bring people along and and really preserve

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I Don't even know what I'm trying to say. Like I It's not it's not a tribe tribe guild.

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I don't know what word to use but like, you know I have so much hope I have in the past had so much hope for the reformed evangelical world that were

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Remember what I was in seminary. Let me give an example. Okay, cuz I'm stumbling on my words here Let me give an example when I was in seminary. I Remember thinking like when

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Al Mohler finds out what's going on at Southeastern It's gonna be over and the whole hammer of the reformed evangelical world is gonna come down on this woke stuff

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And we obviously know what happened, right? So I've relived that experience a few times now and so I'm to the point now or I'm just like I don't have any

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There's nothing I had to lose there's no sacred cows here. We're just gonna talk about it. I'm gonna talk about it.

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Honestly All right without further ado. Let's read the fall of a leader lessons from Steve Lawson's removal

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And I wrote this last night. I added a few things today But this was last evening editors note the following piece does not necessarily reflect the opinions or stance of truth script or its directors as This is a developing story and not all the facts have yet come to light probably a wise thing

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Yesterday the elders at Trinity Bible Church in Dallas, Texas Announced that their lead preacher

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Steve Lawson was involved in an inappropriate relationship with a woman This revelation was serious enough to lead to Lawson's departure from TBC and likely his broader ministry career

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Ligonier ministries where he served as a teaching fellow and the master seminary where he held the position of Dean of demon studies

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Have removed him from their respective websites This news has sent shockwaves through the

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Reformed evangelical community Particularly among those who have long appreciated the ministries of RC Sproul Ligonier and John MacArthur masters

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I received numerous messages from friends expressing their astonishment with one asking me if it was true.

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Sadly it is The reaction earlier this year when Alistair Begg affirmed his support for attending a same -sex wedding was similar it raises a troubling question

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How can someone who taught the scriptures so effectively find themselves compromised on such

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Fundamental moral issues we stop right there briefly That is the question. I think because those formulas that we had for explaining why this stuff happens in other camps they the scripture and Studying it and knowing it and communicating it was supposed to be like the the main and the big barrier, all right, and I think

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The scripture is important in this regard but I Want you to see by the end of this that there's there's more to it than that That's it can't just be that someone's a good expositor and that will necessarily mean

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They're virtuous in every sense of the word or they're strong in every sense of the word

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I hope to somewhat dispel that notion, but that's the question. I think running through a lot of people's mind

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So the first section in here I titled but for the grace of God and I think this is important You got to hear this one of the helpful things to remember first and a warning

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I've noticed coming from wiser men is to consider the deception of sin as a child

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I remember the familiar teaching a lie becomes bigger the longer you tell it all sin is like this

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James 1 chapter Chapter 1 verses 14 through 15 says but each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust

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Then when lust has conceived it gives birth to sin and then sin is accomplished. It brings forth death

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Sin doesn't begin with the most egregious violations of God's moral order It often starts with small gradual steps away from his clear teaching

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It is quite literally to miss the mark the arrow may only be an inch off the first time

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Solomon presented sexual temptation in Proverbs 7 is cunning Persuasive and flattering.

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It does not consider the potential consequences until it is too late And for Steve Lawson, it is too late to avoid some serious consequences

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But that doesn't mean it's too late for you If you're struggling with similar temptations The potential for grievous sin is always close to a heart that thinks too highly of itself

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We must remember the tools God has provided to help us gain victory over temptation No matter what form it takes

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Steve Lawson was surrounded by theology adored by fans of expository preaching and stood at the pinnacle of reformed evangelicalism yet in the end his battle is the same every common person faces between his own flesh and His God now before I get to the next section

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Which has a lot of I think firecrackers in it, let me say One of the reasons I wrote what

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I just read to you is I do think we need to have a self -reflection but I do see a spirit out there that I completely disagree with that Assumes like as a way to explain this just assumes that The godliest person it doesn't matter.

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You could be like he could be as close to Jesus as possible and In one fail swoop in one instant you just fall to temptation

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And not just temptation, but a very serious disqualifying temptation That you know ruins the rest of your career and brings such shame to Christ and all these things.

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I Wanted to emphasize that I think there's gradual steps that take place in between that point and you know between being godly, you know and living a

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Life that Christ is pleased with in that point. I Don't think it's as simple as you know one day this happened

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There were weaknesses beforehand and there are examples in Scripture In fact, I'm gonna bring up the story of David here in a moment that Addressed this that show where was

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David? He was He wasn't with his army. Why is that right? There was a week. There was a responsibility. He wasn't meeting and it was

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Circumstances and opportunity and Failing to meet an actual duty that led him into the egregious sin

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He had with Bathsheba and so I want to dig into that a bit So here's the second part courage as a window to character

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While recognizing the allure that temptation holds for a prideful heart is important.

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It doesn't fully address an increasingly common question Why are such scandals occurring more frequently and in seemingly theologically sound circles

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I don't claim to know Steve Lawson's heart or the specifics of his situation, but I can't say

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I'm astonished This leads me to wonder why that is if John MacArthur were involved in something like this.

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I would be shocked So why am I not as taken aback when it comes to Steve Lawson? Alistair Begg or others who have succumbed to serious theological errors or moral failures.

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I From how closely I've observed the social justice moments with movements rather within evangelicalism over the past few years

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These movements have repeatedly served as a barometer for individuals courage providing a deep insight into their character

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And for those watching this video who don't know the focus of What I've done over the last few years.

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I've written Two books on the social justice movement and evangelicalism. I put out

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I don't even know how many podcasts on this issue. I've spent Thousands and thousands and I mean,

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I don't even know if you added it all up how many hours studying Evangelicalism and wokeness social justice and And so I know

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I'm pretty familiar with especially in the reformed evangelical world where people have lined up on various questions over the years

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Pertaining to this right? So this is what I'm going to talk to you about Where did Steve Lawson land and I don't think this is the key to understanding everything about a person at all, but I do think

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This does give us a window into something right just like David staying home when he should have been on the battlefield gives you a window into Where David's head was at mentally where his spiritual state where it was before the temptation arose with Bathsheba, I think this kind of a thing gives you a an insight into where someone's at mentally when it comes to courage and protecting the church for from some very dangerous threats and I'm not it doesn't do me any

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Pleasure to say I think Steve Lawson. I've been candid about this. I actually talked about this on the podcast You can go back.

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I did a whole podcast. I don't even know if Steve Lawson's in the title, but But I talked about him quite a bit and the disappointment

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I have with him. I Think failing this test. So what am I talking about? Well in the case of Steve Lawson?

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He would not sign the Dallas statement on social justice He did not weigh in on social justice at least not publicly to my knowledge so I could be wrong

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But I know like I said, I've looked at this stuff pretty closely It wasn't until 2022 when he received a question at a

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Bible study He expressed his disapproval in a somewhat general way without naming names.

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I was encouraged at the time However, a few months later Lawson endorsed Paul David trips book

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Do you believe and this surprised me especially since it was well known that trip attended Epiphany Fellowship led by the author of woke church reparations advocate

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Eric Mason Trip had also controversially stated in 2018 that he had been complicit in advancing an incomplete gospel because he had preached the gospel of God's Grace for his entire ministry, but left out the gospel of God's justice

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Phil Johnson the CEO of race to you expressed concerns about trips issue during the infamous

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Shepherds Q &A panel in 2018 now I Don't think he mentioned trip by name and now

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I'm wondering is I think Phil Johnson's the CEO I use that term I wasn't the true script editors. I'm pretty sure he's a CEO of grace to you

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Anyway, I'm like rethinking that is like I know he's he's in charge. Anyway, he was at that panel and He didn't mention the name, but I knew he was talking about he described exactly perfectly

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This situation in 2018 that had just happened at that point with Paul David trip

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So we're gonna get to see loss and I have to take this aside though So so trip writes this book do you believe

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I think was two years ago and in that book he complains about how he's called a Marxist when he addresses racial injustice seeing this response as The sims like from Phil Johnson as the symptom of a disconnect between Christians theology of grace and justice in their practical lives

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All right. So so there's a double down in this book. So so he commits these errors It's it's basically a modern

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Galatian heresy. It's pretty serious stuff Phil Johnson even says it's pretty serious stuff at Shepard's Q &A and Then he doubles down Paul David trip doubles down on it in this book and guess who endorses the book none other than Steve Lawson And in fact, it's for the very it's it's for the very wrong reason

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It's for that you might try to defend him and say well, maybe there was something else in the book But this is what he says Yet attacking this supposed disconnect is what a lot

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Lawson endorsed He set up trips book in this important book There's a quote

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Paul trip puts his finger on a live nerve in the body of Christ He addresses the dangerous disconnect that often exists between sound doctrine and sound living

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Well, there you go. That was that was Paul trips whole point. He's doubling down and he's saying

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Look, you know these hypocritically these evangelicals who come after me say I'm a Marxist Well, they just have a disconnect and then

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Steve Lawson comes out and says, well, you know I'm gonna endorse this book and Paul Paul trip really gets into the you know, there's other disconnects in the book, too but like that's one of them and So so I saw that and I thought what are you thinking?

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Now for the record, this does not mean that Lawson is woke It means he unlike John MacArthur failed to protect the sheep

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Away from wokeness when it mattered and continued to preach alongside people like Lincoln Duncan and Tim Keller Without squarely facing the issue and that's true

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You can I did put because I thought people would disbelieve me about Tim Keller, but you can go to the links So he it's not wrong even to share stages.

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I'm just saying he didn't face this issue clearly and then he's giving a very Confusing sound because he's with these guys

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He's doing conferences and on stages or these guys are but he hasn't even weighed in on the issue in a square clear way

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And this is a guy who does no problem weighing in on charismatics talking about Arminians He'll go after guys who are outside the

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Reformed Evangelical Guild to some extent and in that theology not just guilt with that theology but on this issue, which

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I think was much more she is much more serious and Crickets, right At key moments like when his influence could have helped the men

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I knew this is I'm gonna get you There's a few places in this I give you a little bit of behind the scenes So this is one at a key moments when his influence could have helped the men

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I knew who confronted Al Mohler for allowing CRT ideas at Southern Seminary. He was absent from the battlefield now

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I don't know if I've talked about this publicly on the podcast. Probably I have but yeah There was a meeting and I've heard three or four versions of this that all are reconciled with themselves

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This was a few years ago and more than a few now. I'm at 20. I want to say 2019 2020 but there was there's a bunch of guys as a bunch of them who

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Confronted who talked to Al Mohler about social justice in a private meeting. So Steve Lawson was not

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As far as I know involved in that he at least wasn't present So is that like a big strike against him?

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No, I'm just saying there's a pattern here and When we needed him for battle, he was not he wasn't there.

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He wasn't a wartime leader in that sense All right, I know that there's a lot of people streaming right now and there's a lot of comments coming in but I'm gonna keep reading this and We're gonna continue this.

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I don't think I've ever had this many streamers. We are climbing and we are We're about to help hit 1200 right now

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All right. This may offend some this is the title of this subtitle of this section is the illusion of image

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This may offend some but Steve Lawson fit my own personal impression of someone Whose image was made for the upper levels of reformed evangelical conference circuit long before this incident

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Some of this comes down to what some may consider petty things, but I don't think they're they are taken as a whole

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Expositors on the conference circuit are generally revered for their accurate preaching and professional persona

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Lawson presented well with his wardrobe of over folded pocket squares cufflinks signature striped ties and tailored suits

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Now I've been at these conferences. That's how I know because I've I've listened to him. I've I've seen him

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I've seen I've seen I don't know him well or anything It's from a distance, but I've seen how he interacts a scene see now he presents. That's how he dresses his preaching was technical

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Sophisticated sounding and left little room for practical asides He fit the image of a specialist in handling

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God's Word. I Almost thought I could see a glow coming from his well -lotioned hands soft from turning pages

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He was not what you would call a wartime leader his very clean -cut image

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Signaled all was well and for these reasons and others relating to my own impression of Lawson's softer mannerisms

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And what seemed like overly scripted messages? I never cared for his preaching Now I debated whether to to say this and I'm just gonna say it at this point, but there were some things

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On a personal level, I'm not gonna share details, but that From from people

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I do trust that led me to think that Lawson had an arrogant streak to him

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It's not I'm very careful with those things. I don't just go trotting those things out there I don't especially if I'm not a first -hand witness or there's not a primary source

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I can I can grab that's publicly available right in this case with everything that's happened and with the

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The image that I think Lawson exuded that I'm gonna continue to describe to you I think it's

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Beneficial for me to mention in addition to what I'm describing here there were over the years

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People who told me stories that I just thought well, that's that's weird. That's but it's just odd, you know

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It doesn't this isn't reflective of someone who would be humble in my opinion I Get it people can say that about anyone people say about me people can say people do say that about John MacArthur They say it about all kinds of solid people.

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That's why I tend to just These are people I trust though, but but you don't know them because you know, you're you're just listening to me

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I'm telling you this though for personal reasons from a personal standpoint. It's not just that I saw

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Everything I'm describing there were other things that also seem to confirm that my suspicions were correct

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Okay, so nothing personal against you if you want to listen to Steve Lawson, but that's perfectly fine

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Well, not not now I mean before we knew about like like if you Benefited from his preaching and you didn't see the things that I'm saying that's perfectly fine is what

31:54

I'm trying to say So that's why I bring that up. Anyway, Lawson. I say I write was different He was the kind of expositor.

32:03

Oh, sorry. I'm skipping over myself. Let me let me go to the previous paragraph. I Was an overproduced quality to Lawson that seemed to conceal who he was

32:15

Something I never wondered about in preachers like John MacArthur or RC Sproul For example, I knew

32:21

MacArthur's wife was Patricia. In fact, I know Multiple times MacArthur shared the story of them getting married and dating and I know it very well

32:30

His grandkids distracted him from his work much to his delight You know, I remember specific stories from John MacArthur talking about as it's weird

32:37

I I can't remember what passage he was preaching on but I remember a story about his grandkids and Personal stories from his own experience his views on politics and other cultural matters flowed naturally from the pulpit

32:48

You know and this is where you know during 2020 Especially MacArthur would almost get in trouble because he'd get up there and he had a passage and then he'd be like, you know

32:56

I'm just gonna talk about It'd start you do a political aside for a moment. And I thought it was wonderful to be honest with you.

33:03

But But it's unscripted Lawson I did what was different?

33:08

Okay. He was the kind of expositor who played well with others on panels He spoke from study more than experience

33:15

He avoided politics and focused on threats to the reformed evangelical brand like charismatic theology and Arminianism More than more than general threats facing all

33:26

American Christians like social justice Well Lawson traveled extensively often without his wife and that's a little other peak behind the veil

33:34

And and I did have a conversation with someone who operates on these levels about that today and He went everywhere and he rarely took his wife with him

33:46

He juggled an impressive array of responsibilities writing books leading one passion ministries with its

33:52

Center for expository preaching and expositor magazine and Participating in conferences alongside his academic roles at masters and Ligonier Lawson's focus allowed him to master the formula

34:04

Satisfy the expectations of his peers and create the materials that positioned him at the top of his field

34:11

Now that I've sufficiently offended all the Steve Lawson fans who genuinely gleaned from his ministry Let me also say that Lawson was gifted speaker and most of what

34:18

I heard him say was true I do not for a second minimize the way God used him to communicate truth

34:23

Neither do I remotely blame anyone for not seeing Lawson from my perspective? I bring my impressions up now to ask you larger question

34:32

Is it possible that even in the most conservative Christian circles? There is a pressure to emphasize image group acceptance in the accolades of a prominent of prominent ministries over virtue

34:44

There's a genuine problem in all managerial institutions today But I think some

34:50

Christians tend to believe their organizations aren't affected by these forces We are accustomed to thinking the larger ministries are more heavily vetted

34:59

Therefore safe than the smaller ones I can tell you in no uncertain terms that all my research on social justice confirms the exact opposite of this and it does

35:09

It really does In fact for the book

35:15

I have coming out probably around Christmas, hopefully let's hope I have a whole chapter where I talk about this dynamic

35:25

How it was smaller guys with smaller platforms pastors of smaller churches that did far better pastors, especially not hooked into the pipeline not hooked into The the guild that did so much better handling that It was an interesting observation because I know it's not just a social justice that this relates to there's other things that this relates to Why is there less it seemed like there was less theological accountability there was less

35:52

Bravery and virtue there was less ability to defend oneself at the height the higher you got in an organization and I've People who know who listen to the podcast.

36:03

No, I've I've been at a number of different Institutions of higher education and I can say that dynamic

36:10

I think is that each one of the ones I've been to What explains this well, that's part of what

36:17

I'm trying to answer in in the book, but But this does this dynamic exists. I'm concerned that by the point someone makes it big and evangelicalism

36:25

We give approval to them mostly based on superficial qualities and technical skills. The limelight will always encourage pride.

36:32

That's unavoidable, right? We can't avoid that and pride will always open the door for temptation But we are given qualities to look for in elders

36:39

Someone can be a good teacher yet fail to defend biblical truths effectively They can be gentle but lack discernment

36:45

It is difficult to detect some of these important weaknesses in conference settings where only certain qualities need to be manifested

36:53

I'm coming to the end of it. This is the last section formulas don't protect If there's a point to be made aside from seeing

37:00

Lawson's fall as a warning. I think it is this Formulas will not protect us

37:05

Lawson fit a common mold in a certain quarter of evangelicalism that emphasized expository preaching a plurality of elders cessationism and Calvinistic soteriology

37:15

These qualities are what many in these circles think makes them solid Not only did

37:21

Lawson check all the boxes, but he looked the part The problem was that his character was lacking

37:27

Some of the deadliest threats are not addressed by believing the right things on these issues or carrying institutional credibility.

37:35

I Pray for Steve Lawson with the assumption that he is a Christian caught in a sin and in need of truly spiritual people to help

37:41

Restore him to repentance as Galatians 6 1 instructs, but I fear for American Christianity our leadership class is thin at the highest levels and in desperate need of replacement from godly men as Many have said to me

37:54

John MacArthur can't live forever But who will replace him I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that God will work all of this out

38:01

After all the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ Church, but are we prepared to embrace a different paradigm?

38:08

One less formulaic and more virtue focused perhaps a newer paradigm looks like one that rewards sacrifice for truth more than avoiding necessary conflicts one that's less technical and more practical and I Feel like there's one thing that I meant.

38:29

I'll probably have to edit this article later I'm looking at my draft and I'm like, wait a minute. I thought there was a Section in this let me just look at my draft real quick That is being left out here

38:41

Okay, so here's here's the last sentence the last paragraph that apparently needs to still be added

38:48

Perhaps the disappointment some of us feel right now is a good opportunity to thank God for that local pastor who never made the limelight

38:55

But was faithful maybe it is time to elevate that person in our minds and with our resources

39:01

Over more distant celebrity level pastors at the end of the day at the end of the day this is ultimately a good reminder to put our confidence in God and not men and I'm gonna make sure that this makes it to the end of the article.

39:18

All right, just send it to the editor So that's the end of it All right. So let's let's talk about it.

39:24

I know many of you have comments and questions there's so many more things that I can say, but I That's the gist of it as really is the gist of it

39:33

I I think that we do ourselves a disservice if We look at a situation like this and the only takeaway is well the godliest people

39:43

Stumble and be careful that you don't stumble that is one takeaway and it's an important one the godliest people if Temptation is presented and they they walk through that door and they keep walking through that door

39:55

Sure, they can wind up at this point but there's I think bigger things to be examined in this and re -examined and one of the

40:05

Concerns that I have unrelated to Steve Lawson or any of the ministries. He was connected with but I'm thinking of people who admire

40:14

Steve Lawson is the Level of that admiration

40:20

I think you can respect someone very deeply But one of the things I think you have to Recognize is when someone is distant like that when in fact myself included you're listening to this podcast

40:33

All right. How many of you actually know me if you come to the men's retreat you get to know me. Do you? Because I'm not just there's no

40:41

Black room. What do they call a green room? We don't have any green room. So, you know, we're not kept from the unwashed masses

40:46

We're out there amongst the people you're gonna see even my frustrations and and so forth. So that's important to me

40:53

I think that's any pastor like the congregation needs to know who their pastor is with someone like Steve Lawson, though How many of you know him on that level?

41:02

How many of you even know his wife's name? right and Not that that's a requirement you like, you know when

41:09

I first started the podcast, I didn't want people to know my wife's name I wanted to keep her out of it because of the controversial nature of this but and some people might might be like that But you know how many personal things really is what

41:21

I'm trying to say. Do you know about the guy? So you just have to keep that admiration

41:26

I think at a reasonable level that just because this person fills some boxes check some boxes off they are at the right places with the right people and They they look the right image

41:41

And and you see their name everywhere connected to ministries that you consider solid and like just because that's present doesn't mean they still don't have a

41:51

Bad character possibly or that sin is creeping in somewhere so I'm saying that in reference mostly to those who

42:01

I and I'm kid you not some of you might be surprised at this who who Have though wondered how they're going to defeat temptation like how if Steve Lawson fell what hope is there for me?

42:12

That's a direct quote from someone yesterday that I heard about which breaks my heart like Pastors not just laymen pastors and devastated over this because they put so much confidence in an industry in a man in a formula and I'm not saying those things in their proper place aren't important things

42:35

But your trust and your confidence need to be ultimately in God man's gonna let you down.

42:40

I'll even let you down. I will Everyone's gonna let you down at some point if they're human

42:48

It won't hopefully be as egregious as as something like this, but there's going to be disappointments

42:53

There's going to be imperfections. There's going to be sin and your confidence in overcoming temptation is not in a formula

43:00

It's not you know, three steps or four steps, or you know, I Have I've done all the spiritual

43:08

Disciplines the way I was told to do them and that will necessarily translate into beating this temptation. These are all tools

43:14

These are all important things. Don't hear me say I'm minimizing any of them because I'm not I think these are all important But ultimately where does the power come from to defeat temptation?

43:24

ultimately Where is the power to grow the church? To do anything really?

43:31

Anything ministry related anything in the spiritual realm. It's from God 100 %

43:36

I Guarantee you this does so something like this. It does nothing to shake my faith.

43:42

Not one iota And I'm not saying I'm better than anyone because I have that confidence but my faith was never in Steve Lawson It was never in the formula.

43:52

It was never in the guild I learned a long time ago probably starting in my seminary days and really I think probably 2020 -2021 was when it was like I was like, okay.

44:02

I see exactly what's going on. You know the when a lot of the The guys who even said they weren't woke and they started really going after Christian nationalism and they're

44:12

I want to get into all that right now, but I wasn't surprised and part of it is the time I've spent and the people

44:18

I know and that kind of thing, I guess but but that was one of the things that just without even those connections without knowing those things

44:26

I had to be dispelled of on a personal level like like during their young restless reform days 15 years ago or so.

44:35

I remember thinking like, you know Calvinism really like that's You get Calvinism, right? You get soteriology right really is what it is, right?

44:42

You get soteriology right then everything's gonna flow from that like a lot of people believe that and then you start seeing

44:48

People who are quote -unquote Calvinists all go woke and you're like, oh, I guess that wasn't the formula, right?

44:55

These formulas can turn into ideology so easily because you start seeing the world through just that like the only thing that matters is that Like if you're you know people people do this with eschatologies

45:07

They do this with with all kinds of things and they reduce everything down to just that one issue And and I'm just trying to argue against that.

45:13

I'm saying let's let's let's have a broader view here And let's also take into account where the power comes from It's from God and and to be solid in ministry.

45:22

We're given a list. We're given qualifications for elders and deacons, right? We we don't need an extra biblical hierarchy

45:30

We don't need extra biblical Emphases and rules we get we have it. We already have it and and to the best of our ability we use that grid to assess and And hope on the conference stage when you don't know these people or in on the podcast stage where I am right now

45:48

You hope that there's people in the local church that are Doing these things from a closer vantage point, which

45:54

I'm happy to say, you know, I my local church people are very aware of what I do and And I do have a level of accountability because of that and when

46:04

I've moved and gone other places, that's something It's usually one of the first things I have a conversation about With whatever church

46:10

I'm joining is I have this podcast, please like I need accountability If I don't have it, then my pride is gonna run rampant.

46:17

I know the weakness that exists in this this heart of mine All right. Let's get to some comments. We've already been going 46 minutes here

46:26

Oh I don't I don't want to have a Calvinism debate. I was giving an example of myself Okay, and and where I was wrong to think that that was the only thing that really mattered or everything flowed from that So I see there's a

46:36

Calvinism debate starting in the comments. Let's not go there I'm gonna look for comments specifically with question marks because there's so many coming in right now

46:54

Yeah, wouldn't his elders have noticed someone asks wouldn't one of his elders have noticed Yeah, I I don't know enough about the church

47:03

I'm not gonna weigh in on something I just don't know about I can I say This though. Let me say this I did go to the church website and I did look at what they were preaching on and and let me give you two observations

47:14

And this is as far as I can go because I don't know the dynamics at that church But Steve Lawson did preach last

47:19

Sunday. He led the men's Bible study last week So whatever relationship was going on He was he presumably he was in ministry

47:34

Simultaneously Maybe maybe that maybe maybe whatever happened developed on Monday and Tuesday.

47:40

I mean it's but like I said these things don't Normally, it doesn't just like you're on the pinnacle of spirituality and then you you you you plunge to this depth

47:49

Usually it's like the story of David and you're you're gonna end up It's going to start with other shifts that are going on so So that was the first thing

48:03

I noticed That he was still doing that. The second thing I noticed though, and this was interesting to me is that I Think it's their evening service.

48:11

The other elder that they had preaching is preaching on and you're never gonna guess this last week in the week before Qualifications for an elder

48:20

I'm not kidding. That's the the text and I didn't listen to the whole sermon I skipped around and I saw this one section where this elder says

48:28

You know why? Steve Lawson is at this he comes in and when he does his expo

48:33

He didn't even use the word expository preaching when he when he exposits the word. He's high above everyone else

48:40

At this pulpit like he's not equal with everyone. He's higher than everyone and the reason for that is because of the high view we have of the

48:48

Word of God and Preaching on the biblical qualifications for an elder and using

48:54

Steve Lawson as a positive example That was I believe last Sunday night So this church you gotta pray for Trinity Bible Church, please

49:02

I don't even know I think they were someone told me today that they were supposed to have going to a new building or something and I Can't imagine this is just this is someone they held in very high esteem

49:13

Just based on that last Sunday sermon, and I don't even know what they're gonna do this coming Sunday. I Mean they're gonna have to face reality but boy

49:24

Talk about My I mean, I'm I don't know the inner workings but I Would assume that people there and they the leadership probably

49:38

Would have not not have known about this because I don't think they would have said those kinds of things All right other questions.

49:47

Are they gonna reprint the Reformation Study Bible? He contributed to that. I don't know There's so many things the thing with Steve Lawson is he was everywhere and reformed evangelicalism everywhere like to try to Separate him is gonna be impossible.

50:02

It's gonna be hard I mean you like I I think that they must have had some serious notice on the announcement

50:09

They made yesterday morning because it would have taken a long time just to try to get everything off of Ligonier and master seminary websites

50:19

All right for $5 Ray says I watched a childhood pastor friend of mine leave his church

50:24

Divorce his wife and start seeing other women. I knew then to place my faith in Christ alone. Amen Amen, put your faith in Christ alone

50:35

Proverbs 5 20 to 23. Why should you some? Oh, this is about the the adulterous woman Why should you be intoxicated with a strange woman?

50:43

Ways of a man are before the the eyes of God and he watches all in his tracks his own iniquities will capture him

50:49

Who is the wicked one and with the cords of his sin? He will be held fast He will die for lack of discipline and an abundance of his folly.

50:55

He will stumble in intoxication When Proverbs presents this it is not very punctilious

51:02

Like there's a moment that you cross the line, but like this stirs in your heart. There's there's a lot of There's a lot of stuff going on there

51:13

Okay We're not gonna stay on much longer I think if just a few more minutes, so I'll take a few more questions

51:20

John Is there any possibility where loss sin is reinstated? That's a good question

51:25

I would suggest no, but I'm curious what your thoughts are. Oh and someone else asked the same question Travis Stuber What does restoration look like in these situations, man?

51:35

I Don't want to say that you caught me off guard you did a little bit. I did think about this I did

51:40

I wasn't planning on necessarily addressing it in this video And I do have my thoughts.

51:46

So I'll say I'll say this I Normally think in the reformed evangelical world that the standard is too high for this not not for the situation, but in general the standard is is some is sometimes too high that If there's any moral failing and I'm trying to think of a good example of this and I'm not coming like there was

52:09

There was one. I remember thinking like well that you know, it's bad But it wasn't like wasn't the worst that like it wasn't what

52:16

Steve Lawson did and I remember Like the guy was probably run out on a rail. He could never come back to ministry

52:24

And of course then there's other standards like you can't believe what I believe about social justice and get very far

52:31

Unless you already have like a built -in platform that you've like you can't start that way again.

52:38

I have no Illusions about that I knew and I started talking about I didn't know how much backlash

52:43

I'd get but I knew I'd get some and I'd probably be blacklisting myself. So anyway, I'll have to say like the standards I think are off but I Do I do believe that Steve Lawson himself even and I don't know exactly what he did

52:57

But let's just assume it was an affair and it was I don't know for I have to put meat on the bones

53:02

I guess to make sense of this because I think it might be different in different situations. But like let's say it It took place over the course of a few weeks and he was still in ministry and said like Let's actually just make this hypothetical

53:14

We're not even talking about Steve Lawson because I don't want anyone to say that John said this So I'm not talking about Steve Lawson.

53:20

Just go with me on this. It's a situation like that Can that person return to ministry? I think that they can return to ministry in the sense that if they're

53:29

Christian and they repent they still have spiritual gifts I think there is a restoration now those who are spiritual have to be part of that I think that David as I know he was in a civil office, but I think there was a restoration he had but there were severe consequences and lasting consequences that He also had and I think that takes place too.

53:48

And there's a prudential element to this so Someone in that position has committed such an egregious violation, especially continuing.

53:57

I think to minister In that you know knowing that they really are not

54:03

Their character does not match the character qualities outlined in scripture for being an elder and they continue to minister

54:09

You're not just looking at adultery you're looking at lying I just and not not directly but it's it's a deception of a certain kind right?

54:17

You're looking at pride and Then the question of all the things that led to that point so usually it's a whole big enchilada and that can show such a weakness in character that You that you may never actually return to the pastor.

54:34

You may never have leadership now Maybe you'll do ministry, but maybe it's washing toilets, right? Maybe it's It's being playing a support role of some kind maybe

54:43

Maybe it's that maybe it's not Maybe your gifts have to be used in a different way Somehow that's not as influential and Steve Lawson's case

54:52

Whatever he did he has such a big name and such a far -reaching influence. He will always be known by this this will be his reputation and I've heard pastors talk about like, you know, don't let your reputation be bad and And then you can't do ministry and what they mean by it is don't let your

55:10

Reputation in the eyes of the world because of you violated the world's Do you transgress their standards?

55:16

So you've you've done things they think are sexist or something like don't let that be your reputation or you can't be a ministry

55:22

Well, I don't think that's at all What scripture talks about in this regard? I think what scripture talks about is

55:31

Is violating God's standards in the eyes of people When you do that and in a habitual way in this case and in a very deep way

55:41

And in such a public way, it's known then it doesn't matter how long you know

55:47

Ten years from now, whatever Steve Lawson's still going to have this this great moral failing attached to him and so I think it would make it impossible for him to hold the platform.

55:59

He did before I just don't even think it's possible It's not even a discussion really worth entertaining they're really the focus right now for Steve Lawson ought to be how do you become back into right relationship with the

56:09

Lord and with your wife and And then we'll add we'll start asking those questions down the line

56:15

The questions about what your ministry will look like as we as we go along But that's that's probably not a full answer.

56:23

But that's that's what I think I guess Someone says

56:29

Lawson's preaching has been right on correct. Who's the other party? Why couldn't they take care of this situation internally?

56:35

Why hurt the body of Christ if Lawson wasn't telling people to sin? I don't know exactly where that's coming from He's Lawson repentant.

56:42

Yeah, I think so from what I understand at least he confessed. I don't know if what his repentance looks like John is there any chance

56:49

Steve Lawson is was ever saved don't I sound like a Puritan? I'm gonna just Believe I'm gonna take

56:55

Steve Lawson as word that he was saved You know, I I yeah, this is egregious but People who there's people so you have your

57:07

Judas's right who I think Judas wasn't saved if you're Judas's Who are subversive and they they and they live?

57:16

in the in the bubble and they speak the language, but They're not really of you right and they went out from you because they weren't of you first John but then you have your

57:24

David's who truly repent and it's heartfelt and and It may be an egregious sin, but we sent on all the time

57:33

I sent every day not in these egregious ways, but I do sin and And God finds my sin worthy of hell so If not for the grace of Christ, that's where I would be going

57:47

So I repented that that's the Christian life if we confess our sins He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to do what to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

57:53

I think Steve Lawson if he repents he is cleansed from all unrighteousness Or I should say if he has repented he's justified before God I mean he's clean

58:02

God God is going to see him with the righteousness of Christ If this is something though, he doesn't repent of if he's continuing in sin and he shows this

58:11

That's just showing that where his fruit is. He doesn't have it And if that were the case, then yeah, I would say okay

58:16

Well, there's no reason to believe to take his testimony or his profession seriously, but we're not there. We're not there.

58:22

I Don't want to get into this too many speculative things about Steve Lawson beyond what we already have what we what we do know

58:31

Bodhi Paul Washer and Steve Lawson are in so harsh on sin if they yeah,

58:37

I know that's If they fall I find it hard to be reinstated stalled as a leader, man

58:42

I don't think Steve Lawson's gonna watch this But if he ever did, I hope he would hear me say look, you know, I I don't see him being reinstated not at the level he was and not even as a leader, but I do see him being a

58:55

If he is a Christian and if he's repentant being someone who can point people As a warning he can point younger men, especially to not go the direction that he went

59:06

I think he can be involved in a church. I think I Think that there is a place for him.

59:12

I don't know exactly what that is and I don't want to flush it out Because it because I don't want to get out on a limb too much here

59:18

David moral says the permanently disqualified conversation needs to be had in conservative circles. We often use an extra biblical standard

59:23

Yeah, I think like I said, I think there's a lot of prudence. It's a lot of like what seems wise and and I Brought a lot of that into the discussion as well

59:36

Restored yes Restored to the same ministry. Absolutely not. Thank you for saying what I was trying to say.

59:41

That took me like five minutes You just said it in one one little message. That's why I like sola sola soli deo music because you leave the best comments

59:50

Thank you All right, I'm gonna take we're almost an hour. I don't want to I didn't want to go over an hour and we're just about there so Joel oh,

01:00:00

I want to read this one Joel. I committed adultery nine years ago We are still reeling from the effects of it Joel. I'm so sorry

01:00:05

I lovingly say from experience that he could have a ministry to dorks like me, but there is no spot for him

01:00:13

Behind I think behind a pulpit Joel I appreciate you sharing that and Yeah, I am.

01:00:19

I'm so sorry James says

01:00:25

I'm sure you're out of time. But if you can please address my question I didn't see it because my husband is a lead pastor and his elders guard him very well

01:00:32

We need to have discussions on how shepherding takes place in these celebrity spheres if they aren't with their sheep

01:00:39

Okay, I didn't see the question, but I'm trying to read between the lines It's a problem if you're traveling all over the place, which Steve Lawson was without his wife

01:00:46

Often and you're just you know going all over the world and that kind of thing. It's it's a big problem

01:00:52

I think it's wrong. I think it's it. I don't want to be legalistic I'm not saying in and of itself the traveling and preaching is bad

01:00:58

I do it, but I think you once you're forsaking the responsibilities at home and sometimes you don't know you're doing it but the people around you should be

01:01:07

Keeping you accountable the elders at the church should have seen probably that Lawson is out there all the time and he stretched in because he's involved in all these ministries.

01:01:17

He got his hand in every pot He's probably a busy guy. I know someone told me that I guess he had shared with the expository

01:01:24

Class at Master Seminary that he was a workaholic. That was his thing before he was he became a pastor

01:01:30

He was a sports journalist or something in a magazine. I think if that's your tendency

01:01:36

Then you can put yourself into very compromising situations It doesn't take long because you're just you're out on the road and that's a problem.

01:01:44

It definitely is So I think that yeah, you need accountability need people to know where I mean,

01:01:50

I've done this You know, I've had when I'm on the road, I'm gonna be in a hotel. I'll text someone I'll text a friend and be like look,

01:01:56

I'm just gonna check in with me And it's just it's just a caution. It's just doesn't mean

01:02:01

I'm weak. It doesn't mean You know, some people have the Billy Graham rule, right? That's like and these are some of the most moral manual you'll ever find but they won't be alone with a woman

01:02:10

And and I get that I don't I don't ever besmirch someone who who does that I I can some if they impose it on everyone else

01:02:18

I could be like, okay, like I I remember the Southern Baptist Convention has that standard for their church planners and when

01:02:25

I was going through their And I can see a scenario where a childhood friend who's a girl, you know

01:02:31

And I know some people say I don't have friends who are girls and I get it I know I had these discussions But anyway someone who's you know I was like if she's on the side of the road and stranded and needs a ride and the storms coming

01:02:40

What am I gonna do? Like I mean that scenario is really played in my head I was like I can't I can't hold of this all the time

01:02:49

Anyway, all right Let's yeah, a lot of people are weighing in on the whole like can you be restored?

01:02:54

I just think it's so premature in this case. Like it's we do need to flesh that out. But I mean, there's so many questions coming in guys and and we do need to end

01:03:07

Let me just let me give you a few scriptures to think about Real quick here.

01:03:23

I already mentioned one of them, but I just want to give this one to you again First John 1 9. Let's let's end with some hope if we confess our sins

01:03:29

He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness Galatians 6 1

01:03:35

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness

01:03:41

Which is what I if Steve Lawson's repentant, that's what he needs right now Psalm 51

01:03:47

David right sinning with Bathsheba. He says restore me to the joy of your salvation that's the restoration that that I think

01:03:55

Steve Lawson has if he's repentant restoring to the joy of your salvation and Uphold me with a willing spirit

01:04:03

I think that's the last one. I want to read so I Think this illustrates

01:04:12

There is a path even Peter denied Christ right and there was a path for him I mean he

01:04:17

Peter really Peter's a good case study in this because Peter also Gave cover to the Judaizers and but there was a path back for him and and so I Want to just say for those who are listening out there some of you

01:04:32

You have crossed out this line. Some of you are Devastated because of what you saw you

01:04:40

Trusted this guy and now you feel like your trust is violated And I just want to say depend on God trust in God and there is hope there is restoration

01:04:48

That's what the gospel is all about. That's the good news. Christ has done this work and and In the last

01:04:55

I will say this last this last thing this last verse let many of you not become teachers

01:05:02

For teachers will incur a stricter punishment or stricter judgment Be very careful.

01:05:09

If you are in those positions, you got to be very careful twice as careful As you would be if you're just a layman

01:05:16

You bear a great responsibility and it does shame Christ to have this kind of thing.

01:05:21

So pray for the church I I view this I wrote an article I have not published it on revival last week and I sent it to my patrons if you're by the way if you're a patreon supporter patreon .com

01:05:34

forward slash worldview conversation, you can support what I'm doing and I sent it to them because I wanted to get their feedback.

01:05:42

But my overall thesis was basically The church in the West is so corrupt in so many ways

01:05:51

Is it possible that God could be doing a work right now?

01:05:57

And I think of Kat Von D and you know,

01:06:03

JP Sears, I think he converted to Christianity if I'm not mistaken and Who was the recent one

01:06:10

Russell Brand? and there was a few others and These are not necessarily mature

01:06:17

Christians. These aren't people that probably should even be near microphones right now if they are Christians, but But I keep thinking the

01:06:25

Lord uses the weak things to shame the strong right uses the things you wouldn't expect He resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble is

01:06:35

The Christian industry no matter which quarter of it. Is there a pride? Is there a Deficiency there

01:06:42

I I've come to the conclusion. I think there's some big holes and if that's the case I Would expect

01:06:48

God if he's gonna do a work. He's gonna do a revival which we all pray for right?

01:06:54

He's not going to work through those people as much as he's going to work through the drug addict

01:07:01

Who you know, I think of Russell Brand I'm sure his theology isn't even on point and everything is a new believer

01:07:07

But I think of like the last time I saw Russell Brand. He's he was arguing about Legalizing drugs with Peter Hitchens on BBC and he was in favor of the drugs.

01:07:16

I mean he was known for such a decadent lifestyle and Now he's praying beautiful prayers with Tucker Carlson and I mean

01:07:24

Tucker Carlson himself He just said he read the Bible for the first time just recently was fascinated by it. And what is going on out there?

01:07:30

I mean none of these evangelical industries can take credit for this This is happening outside of the expository preaching circuit

01:07:39

These people are just reading the Bible They're coming to faith in Christ Be encouraged.

01:07:45

Okay, the Lord's not gonna leave himself without a witness but it may not be the organizations and associations you think

01:07:51

That end up leading the charge or benefiting from this kind of thing We can look at history and see many examples of this

01:08:01

Jesus and the Pharisees even in the Reformation It's the spirits gonna move the spirits going to to save people and The corruption is going to be no matter how powerful their positions are in the religious world in the religious hierarchy they're gonna be bypassed and So that's a larger discussion.

01:08:21

I'm not I don't want to just I'm not using Steve not saying that Steve Lawson's failures is this dynamic?

01:08:28

necessarily, I don't know but I Think overall since we're we're reeling from a lot of these kinds of situations

01:08:36

I see this this trend where it goes. I don't know. Let's pray though. Let's pray that the Lord blesses that All right.

01:08:42

God bless. Hopefully that was encouraging for you More coming and have a good