Stories from the Mission Field to the LDS

I answered a lot of questions for him and he seemed to be very sincere in questioning his faith. I gave him my phone number and he did make one attempt to call me but didn't leave his number and it was kind of a sad thing.

But he's in the Lord's hands and that's our confidence, that's our hope and our peace knowing that God is sovereign and he has seen fit to allow us to share his gospel with these lost people.

Excellent. You know, I just think about the time and time again when we've gone out there and had those kind of encounters and the circumstances where you wish you had more time to talk with somebody but you're absolutely right.

The Sovereignty of God in Evangelism

That person is in the Lord's hand and that's just going to be something we will depend upon because we have to and we know that when we go up there, we go out to Mesa, when we witness to these folks and we share the gospel with them that it's not our fancy words, it's not our great voice, it's not anything that is of us that is going to change their minds.

I mean I could be a fantastic debater, I could be a great arguer for my faith and I might intellectually be able to convince someone into the kingdom if you will but ultimately unless there is a change of the heart, unless God makes that person new, it's not going to stick.

It's not going to be there. They're going to be like the parables of the soils and it may sprout up for a little while but it's going to wither away because there's no soil there, there's nowhere for the roots to go and it's just not going to be the case.

Folks, if you have a situation or if you are curious about what we're talking about today, maybe you're LDS and you've encountered us out in Mesa. Maybe you are thinking about joining us out in Mesa, maybe you're a Christian who would like to be able to go out there and share the gospel with folks but you really don't know how or maybe you've just got some questions.

Why would somebody do this? What is it that motivates us to do something like this? What is it about all this that lights us up so much? You can call us. We'd love to talk with you. We're at 602 -274 -1360 and if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, we're at 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Now Simon Escobedo, your forte is really more along the lines of witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses but you have been out to Mesa with us a couple of times as I recall and I'm just kind of curious. How do you feel about what you've encountered there?

Well, I've enjoyed the opportunity, Rich. My first experience with you all at the pageant was about three years ago and though I had basically understood the major tenets of Mormonism, the distinctions between our belief of the nature of God and where they deviate from that and so forth, it was an educational opportunity for me to go out there with you all and to listen in on the various conversations that you and James and Sean and Mike Munoz and others were involved in and so in doing so I saw the passion that you all had in witnessing to these folk.

I saw some of the reactions that you received and eventually I had my opportunity to get involved in some of those conversations and I remember uniquely so. I believe it was two years ago when we were out there that a brother of mine, Eddie McKee from our church and I were involved in a discussion with a bunch of young people and this was towards the end of the evening and as James has so often said many times, the folk that you're actually dialoguing with, you may never get anywhere with them.

They're going to be honed in on their views and they're going to stick to them but the folks that are listening around you and have opportunity to examine the various arguments as they're presented and who's being more consistent with scripture and so forth, those are the ones that you're hoping will give an ear and the Lord might use what you're saying to open their eyes and so forth.

And a couple of years this was made real clear to me in a unique opportunity that after we had finished dialoguing with these young people and the smoke had cleared, there was a young lady there who obviously was a student, she had her backpack on, I don't know maybe she was about 19, 20 years of age and after everybody had left, she came up to me and she says, I have some questions and she asked a number of questions.

Obviously she had listened to many of the conversations through the course of the evening but because of all the various LDS people that were around her as you know, sometimes they're a little bit timid about coming forth with those questions and so forth and the Lord gave us a unique opportunity to witness to her for about another hour and a half after everybody had left.

And we got into some of the major discussions on the nature of God and the gospel and so forth and like Sean, I could see in my own heart the burden increase for these people as I could see a sincere hunger in this person to know the truth.

And while I certainly know that it is God who opens the eyes and the heart, certainly that still burns within us to present that message and hope that he'll be pleased to do so. And like Sean, unfortunately I didn't get an opportunity to see her the rest of the week.

We had given her some literature that she said she would read and we tried to get her James' book, Letters to a Mormon Elder and so forth. And I really pray that the Lord would bring her back and that she'd have further questions and I gave her the ministry address and so forth.

And we never saw her again. And so I don't know what the Lord was pleased to do with what we shared with her. But one thing I know is that like Sean said, our confidence is in God and we had the opportunity that night of ministering to a girl who I believe recognized the inconsistencies of the church that she had grown up in.

And those are the opportunities you look forward to. Those are the experiences that the Lord gives you and increases your hunger and your burden to present the truth of God to these people. And so that was our experience and unique to me and certainly something that has given me further motivation to continue to go out there and witness to these folks.

Excellent. Excellent. 602 -274 -1360. Out of the Phoenix metro dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360. And that is the number that the Executive Vice President of Alpha and Omega Ministries, the Larry Vondra, Mr. Larry Vondra has called and he is on the line with us now.

Larry, how are you today? I'm doing fine. All right. Great. Larry, you got a little something, was it a door hanger or was it in the mail? You got a little something at your house today. Why don't you tell us about that?

It was a flyer and a questionnaire stuffed in my front door handle this morning as I walked out. You know, we recently moved to Gilbert, which is one-third LDS by census. And I looked at this, it was an invitation to the upcoming Easter pageant, and I said, okay, I know about this, and just kind of glanced over it and read the dates at the bottom and was surprised to find out that they're holding a pageant on the Friday and Saturday weekend prior to when we expected to be out there, as April 14th and 15th, along with the 18th through the 22nd.

So these are two extra nights that have not been used in the past and we weren't planning on them. So I was glad to get this so that we could possibly work those two nights as well.

The Easter Pageant and Outreach Opportunities in Mesa

Yeah, that's excellent. You know, it's providential that we're able to announce that here on the one hand, but at the same time, was it last year or was it the year before when so many, I mean, Larry, you and I have been out there since the late 80s, and we have seen thunderstorms roll in and just kind of put a damper on the whole thing.

We've seen all kinds of different situations that have occurred out there. We've seen cold weather, hot weather, etc. But there was something about last year, as I recall, that just brought in a great many people.

I remember for the very first time seeing the presentation have folding chairs up on the flat level of the grass, the street level of the grass, for the presentation. And so, you know, folks, the thing that you have to keep in mind here as we describe what it's like to do what we do out there is that we come prepared with thousands of tracks and most of the folks, frankly, just walk on by.

But these tracks have messages in them that we have written, for the most part, Dr. White has written specifically to reach people who are Mormon, with at the same time a message for those who are not Mormon, but are, you know, they're there because of the draw that this event has given it.

And the thing that we have to keep in mind is that, hang on just a second here, something went wild with the phone there, I don't know what that was, but I think we've lost Larry, but that's okay. Anyway, yeah, we lost poor Larry out there.

Larry, if you're still listening, give us a call back and we'll be sure to put you back in and finish our conversation. The circumstance is that you're able to reach so many people at one place at one time with the tracks that we pass, and whether they're Mormon or whether they're interested in the Mormon church, I mean, these folks use this presentation as a major, major tool to be able to reach non-Mormon people, and oftentimes these folks don't have answers for the doctrine that they present, etc., and so we need to be there to be able to share with them.

Simon? Yeah, I wanted to make a mention here that, I think it was a year or two ago, that a young lady and her children had approached the pageant with the desire to see it and so forth, and they walked in with some of our literature.

They went, they sat down apparently before the show was to begin, she started looking at the literature, came out about 10 -15 minutes later, and had told us she had absolutely, positively no idea that the LDS Church believed what was presented in that literature, and thanked us, and took her kids quickly out of there.

Now, when you were out there, and I know it can be very busy when we're out there, but when you were out there, did you get an opportunity to see the pageant at all, the brief times you were out there?

No, I have not sat through the pageant, seen various scenes and heard some things, but basically... What about you, Sean?

My back has always turned to the pageant, you know, it's usually engaged, so hopefully...

I have seen it, and the thing is that I can say that the thing that disturbs me mostly about it is very little Mormon doctrine is contained in it, and what is contained is very, very subtle. It always kind of gets to me when, during the gathering time while the sun's still out, and people are gathering in, and they're coming in to get their seats, etc., they're playing very Christian songs, and so, you know what, we've got a break coming up, and we're going to be right back after this.

The Dividing Line, we're talking with Sean Hahn today, Simon Escobedo, and we are talking about the upcoming events next Saturday up in Salt Lake City with the Meganackle, and we've also got Larry Vondra on the line here.

Larry, we disconnected you, are you still... Are you back? I'm back. Okay, so you've got one of these little door handle, door knocker things, and it talks about the two new knights, so if, folks, if you're wanting to help us out, if you're going to come out, if your church is planning on helping us out, I know there's a few East Valley churches that have got some youth groups and stuff like that, keep in mind that there's something new this year, and that is that the typical Tuesday through Saturday evening pageant that is going to occur will be still occurring, but they've added on to that, and the previous Friday and Saturday evenings, they're going to be doing the pageant as well, and Alpha Omega Ministries wants to have a presence out there for the Lord Jesus Christ, sharing the gospel with folks, letting them know that the God of Mormonism cannot save, that the Jesus Christ of Mormonism, who is the spirit brother of Lucifer, cannot save, and that is, while very sincere and they do a lot of neat things, it is ultimately hollow in its doctrine, and so we thank you for calling in today and letting us know about that, Larry, we're going to go ahead and move on, and Sean, before we get digging into a few more issues here and talking about what goes on out in Mesa and up in Salt Lake, we've got some things, you're a deacon over at Sovereign Grace Bible Church, right?

That's right, Rich, we have an upcoming conference, I just want to mention briefly, Saturday, April 15th, from 8 o 'clock to 2 .30, we have a conference with two very gifted men of God that will be there, Dr. Joel Beeke, who is the pastor of Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregation up in Michigan, and he's the president and he's a professor of systematic theology at the Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, got a PhD from Westminster, etc., he'll be speaking, giving a couple of different topics, and we also have another man, pastor from the East Valley, Dr. James Adams, and he's the pastor of Cornerstone Church in Mesa.

So I wanted to let people know this is a conference that's free of charge, there's breakfast, there's lunch, we're serving lunch, and there'll be time to address these men with your questions, and there'll be some opportunity to sing, and our church is located at 2940 West Bethany Home Road, in Phoenix, Arizona, and the phone number, just so you may jot this down, is 602 -242 -1815.

Now you had mentioned briefly to me back at the house that Dr. Beeke has been involved in some very important works that, I don't know if it's doctor, I don't know if I want to put that as Dr. Beeke, some very important works that Alpha and Omega provides, and what's that all about, Sean?

On our website, we have different books that are for sale, and two of them that are very excellent. One is called Sola Scriptura, and the other one is called Onward Christian Soldiers. They're both published by Solideo Gloria, and they're different contributing authors, such as John MacArthur, James White, R .C. Sproul, and Joel Beeke.

Dr. Beeke is one of the contributing authors of these two books, as well as many other books. So it's a great opportunity to meet some gifted men, and listen to what they have to say, and learn,.

And to worship, as well. Excellent. Excellent. Now, you weren't expecting me to do this, but you have had a pretty major event occur in your life recently, something to celebrate with you and your wife.

Why don't you tell me a little bit about that?

Well, my wife had a baby, our third child, on the 11th of February. She's six weeks old now, and it's Faith McKenna Hahn, and she's doing great. My wife is a beautiful wife, and a great mother, and the Lord has really blessed us.

Excellent. Excellent.

Much to be thankful for. Those of us at Phoenix Reformed have been praying for a member of your church. The other deacon, as I recall, Bill Flynn, has gone through cancer surgery this week. In fact,.

What was it yesterday? Yesterday, yeah. They removed a tumor off the back of his brain, a cancer tumor that's a very fast and aggressive type of cancer. They had a very good surgery, and were able to remove it completely.

He still has two others that are somewhat inoperable that they'll begin to treat with chemotherapy. They also found another tumor on his lungs. All this happened in the last week and a half. Very tragic, but the Lord is good, and the Lord does not make any mistakes.

So our brother is a tremendous testimony to the goodness and the greatness of God.

Well, that's great news. Actually, I was going to say, we've gotten a great prognosis after the surgery, that he came through the surgery very well, and that some of the side effects necessarily that they might have expected, all the signs are very good right now.

Folks, we would ask your prayers for brother Bill Flynn, that the Lord would heal him and bring him back into the fold healthy. I know that brother Flynn has been used of God on many occasions. He's been out with us in Mesa as well, and so we keep him in prayer as well.

Equipping Christians for Witness and Ministry

Back to our topic, and our phone number is 602 -274 -1360. Out of the Phoenix styling area is 1 -888 -550 -1360. That's the number that Raul has called today. How are you today, Raul? Hi, it's Raul. Raul, okay.

Yeah, I believe we know each other. In fact, I believe we do. I know you. How are you, sir?

I'm blessed. I'm still trying to get some Bibles for prison ministries, but God's been blessing me. And speaking about Bibles, my question was, I'm glad of the work that you're doing, and I know God is blessing it.

I would like to ask, what is being done, what kind of exerted effort is being made to make the believing Christian a more literate Christian, so that whoever comes knocking at their door, they have a solid foundation in the Word, and they're not shaken or stirred?

Yeah, excellent question. And I would say, first of all, this program, The Dividing Line, Dr. White, we're on every Saturday at 2 p .m., and that's one of the things that we do. Those of us who are, those folks who are close to our ministry know that we're a very small organization, but with the very few funds that God gives us, we do a lot with it.

And we have an internet website, www .aomin .org, that has a tremendous amount of information up there that one can glean. I have gotten emails from folks who just trip over the site and talk about how they've spent hours and hours just reading the pages of information that are up there.

And the information that's up there is footnoted, it's cross-referenced, it gives the biblical references, it gives the information that the believer needs to arm themselves properly with the Word of God.

This program, we address various issues every week, from dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses to talking about James Chapter 2, which is an issue with Jehovah's Witnesses as well as Mormons, as well as many other groups.

Those are just some of the recent topics that we've dealt with. Roman Catholicism, the books that we have available through our ministry as well, are all solid, equipping books and materials that are designed to help the believer be able to be equipped.

Gentlemen, anything you want to add to that? What kind of things are out there that allows the believer to really give something they can sink their teeth into?

Well, unfortunately, most of the Christian bookstores today do not seem to be, at least from my perspective, equipped with a lot of great material, solid material. Most of the material that I would find useful and very helpful in edifying and building up the saints is stuff that has to be acquired through the mail order.

So we thank God that there are many different bookstores that you can access through the Internet and 1 -800 numbers, etc., and have great catalogs of material. I think the Lord is really somewhat having us go through a revival of solid biblical gospel preaching again.

I think that the church has lost a lot of that. Of course, there are many churches that are popping up across our valley that we can think of where the gospel is clearly being presented and sin is being dealt with and repentance is stressed and all of these things.

But I think outside of the preaching that's necessary to go on in our churches and the good literature that's out there and ministries like this that are exercising and using the gifts that God has given us, I can't think of a whole lot of other things that would be helpful.

Do you have a number I could contact you?

Yeah, I'm at Alpha Omega in the afternoons, weekdays at 602 -973 -4602 and I'm there Monday through Friday. Or you can reach me at 602 -973 -0318. Those are the two lines that Alpha Omega has and I'm certainly available for calls to try to answer whatever questions I can.

Okay, thank you very much. Towards the end of May there's an effort to get together men from different men's ministries and network in the valley and assess the needs and try to zero in on the needs of men and their ministries, both supporting men in small group ministries and men in their churches.

But I see where your ministry would definitely serve us for information.

Excellent. All right, well we thank you for your call today, Raul, and appreciate your input. And we're going to go to a break now and we'll be right back. And we're back on the Dividing Line. My name is Rich Pierce.

Again, I am joined by Sean Hahn and Simon Escobedo today. And let's see here, looking up at the board. Well, I guess one of the Dividing Line would not be complete without a call from England over the pond with Martin.

Martin, how are you today? I'm very well, Rich. How are you?

I'm doing excellent. I must admit, I've missed the first part of your program, so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about.

We really didn't say much. Today is the Dividing Line light. We had a previous commitment kind of fall apart, and so we're the second string in here kind of throwing a few things together. But we have basically been talking about some of the events that Alpha Omega has coming up with the Mormon Church and going up to Salt Lake City next Saturday, as well as in late third week in April, Easter week, and actually the Saturday and Friday before that, out here in Mace, Arizona, talking and witnessing to Mormons.

And so we've just kind of been sharing what it's like to do what we do and why we do it.

I was going to ask a question. Raoul was talking about, and you mentioned about Christian books being hard to find. I find the same thing over in England. The couple of Christian bookstores we have here, the only benefit is that the really good books, the solid books, tend to be in the bargain basement, so you can pick them up quite cheap.

But the question I saw on the website, and I was just looking at the article here, the recent one from, I forget what the title of it is, Catholic Answers Continues to Dodge the Issues, a book I actually have on my bookshelf, and I actually have read, but James doesn't seem to think it's very good, is The Woman Rides the Beast.

What are the problems with that? I can think of them off the top of my head, but what are some of the problems that you find?

I would say you're probably going to want to talk with James probably in a couple of weeks, because we're going to be broadcasting live from Salt Lake City next week, and maybe the week after, ask him about it on the air.

But I think the chief thing that we kind of shy away from is the jack-chick mentality that painting the Catholic Church as the great big whore of Babylon, and all this apocalyptic stuff, and we would much rather engage Roman Catholicism on a scholarly level, focusing on why the Roman Catholic Church is a false religion.

We can sit here and try to paint her as a big, bad, wicked organization out there full of all kinds of evil behind the scenes, and there are those that do that. We don't do that with the Mormon Church, we don't do that with Jehovah's Witnesses, and we won't do it with the Roman Catholic Church, because we don't believe it furthers anything.

All it does is actually show a prejudice, and that unfortunately doesn't get us anywhere. So to me, that's my answer on it. I'm sure James can go a little deeper with you on it.

I was having a conversation with someone today, because he was asking what I thought about the Pope's visit to Israel, and trying to link it to eschatology, and I was saying you have to be very, very careful, because what somebody says is something this week will turn around, and next week will be something else.

So you have to be a little careful of what you're picking up on these issues. So I just thought I'd ask you.

Okay, thanks a lot for your time, Martin. Okay, Richard. God bless. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. And during the break, Simon mentioned to us that there are some issues that we've touched on briefly, and he'd kind of like to sink his teeth into maybe me and Sean here a little bit, and see what kind of responses we might be able to give to some different argumentations, or at least make some differentiations.

What do you have in mind? Well, I guess the question I have for you, Rich, perhaps for some of our listeners, distinctives need to be set forth. I know this week on the Mento show, James had Roberts and Jennis from Catholic Answers on, and one of the biggest things that came up in the discussion is, you know, why can't we just all get along?

What seems to be the problem? Are we splitting theological hairs here? I mean, after all, in their situation, you know, they agree on a lot of things that normally Protestants would agree on. So what are the dividing lines that separate us in that situation from Roman Catholics?

But in this particular context, you know, don't the Mormons believe in Jesus? Don't they believe in God? Don't they have a gospel? I mean, aren't they good people? Aren't they involved with the family?

All these kinds of things. I know in a dialogue I had with a Mormon over and over and over again. He wanted to try to obscure the issues and focus on terms which, quote-unquote, we supposedly had an agreement on.

So I'd kind of like to throw that out there, playing the DA for a bit, and allow you guys to answer that.

Why Mormonism Requires a Different Gospel and a Different God

Sean, do you have some answers here? Well, it's a very good question, Simon, and as a matter of fact, we're confronted with this question, I think, similar questions from the LDS people. When we're standing down the street corner handing out tracts, they'll ask us similar questions.

And, you know, we're Christians. They just automatically assume that we are indeed Christians. You know, we love God. Why are you persecuting us? Right. We love God, and we believe in Jesus, and we have salvation.

And ultimately what we need to do when we, in order to do them justice, is to explain to them that there is a chasm, that there's a language barrier that separates us from them. We use the same words such as God, Jesus Christ, the Gospel, salvation, sin, but every single one of these words has a completely different definition that makes communication almost impossible if we don't stop and explain to them what you mean by God and what the Scriptures teach about God are totally different.

And I want to try to point this out to a Mormon when I'm speaking to them right up front. Explain to them that there's a language barrier. We have the same words, and it sounds like we mean the same things, but we're using different definitions.

We have a totally different dictionary. So this to me is one of the most important things to stress to them. And it's hard to do it without shocking them in some way. And there's different ways of saying it.

So you can say, you know, you have a false Gospel, a false Christ, and you're worshiping a different God. You know, there's one way you could put it.

If you had one issue that you had to focus on, what would be the most important issue, the most vital?

Well, ultimately, I want to try to go to the Gospel and salvation. How is it that we're saved? Now, that always drives us back to the person of Jesus Christ, which ultimately drives us back to the nature and the character of God.

So God is really the ultimate supreme starting point. And once you begin with God, then you can move forward and begin to talk about his Son and what is salvation and what is sin. And man, the other concept of man is totally different.

So would you say, Sean, that a person who has a desire to communicate to Mormons, that perhaps they have a misconception that, well, I can't witness to Mormons because I don't know anything about Joseph Smith, the First Division, all these other extra canonical writings that they adhere to.

So therefore, I'm out of the game there. I can't involve a Mormon. One on one, you're saying that if you stick to the fundamental issues, the nature of God and so forth, that a person can communicate with a Mormon and witness to them.

Most definitely. As a matter of fact, I would try to discourage our Christian brothers and sisters when they're engaging an LDS person. I would discourage them from discussing Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, all of their extra scriptures.

I would try to discourage any disconversation about this. And sometimes you can't help because they're going to bring up the question, well, haven't you read the Book of Mormon? What about Smith? And how did this guy write this book, etc.?

So if they're going to bring up those topics, they're the one that's going to bring it up. And then what I'm going to do is I'm going to use those as a vehicle to get me back to the gospel and the work of Christ and the person and the character of God.

So I would try to get off of those subjects because those will become very emotional. If you attack Joseph Smith, such as many other missionary groups do, they'll want to take down Smith. Well, you haven't done anything but anger these LDS people.

They take it very personal. But if you can deal with the scriptures and the Word of God and that it's authoritative and that it's actually the Word of God and why you can trust it, etc., I think it will make much more ground in those areas.

But like you said, there are times when you are forced based on the direction the conversation goes. You have to deal with Joseph Smith. You have to present his false prophecies. You have to present his teachings.

You have to present certain things that diminish or at least contrast biblically Joseph Smith, that he is a biblically true prophet. Oftentimes the Mormon testimony kind of forces you into that. But I'd say the one thing I would say different from what Sean said would be my first topic.

And it kind of comes down to your own favorite as you present things to folks out there. But my favorite would be who God is. That's where I start. That would be the one place, the one thing if I had one issue I'd want to go into who God is to differentiate between the fact that the Mormon church presents a God that is utterly 180 degrees different to the God of the Bible and be able to show that biblically.

Right. Well, that's certainly what I think a lot of people would have a lot of questions about. I know I've talked with folks and generally they're discouraged from talking to Mormons or other groups simply because they think they have to have this wide knowledge of the various things that they believe in.

Whereas you guys have just centered on the fact that if we maintain the critical issues that divide us, the nature of God, etc., that we can present the gospel to these people. We don't have to involve ourselves necessarily in these other studies.

Absolutely. And we are coming to the end of our show. And again, I want to reiterate that Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be out in Salt Lake City April 1st. This is an upcoming Saturday. We're going to be up there all day.

We will be broadcasting The Dividing Line from there. And please keep us in prayer. And then those of you here in the Valley who would like to maybe get your church group or something, get involved with sharing the gospel out in Mesa with us.

We would love to have you. James will be doing the show from Salt Lake next week. Thank you. God bless. We'll see you next week. Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p .m. for The Dividing Line.